Anyway, don't take my word for it! This guy created a website just to
rant about why PHP sucks https://whydoesitsuck.com/why-does-php-suck/
On 2020-05-10 12:45 PM, Jack J. Woehr wrote:
On 5/9/20 10:13 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
PHP is still the easiest way to toss up an interactive website.
To
On 2020-05-10 12:44 PM, Jack J. Woehr wrote:
I appreciate that.
If you're a js programmer, you're a js programmer.
I was talking about data center programmers who have to do anything
and everything at the drop of a hat.
PHP is for them.
It's certainly not in our data center. I had to lear
PL/I, the language to replace all other languages. At least that's what IBM
said.
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List On Behalf Of Tom
Brennan
Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2020 11:34 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re: Developers say Google's Go is 'most sought af
On 2020-05-10 11:33 AM, Tom Brennan wrote:
When will it all settle down to just one programming language?? Ha - I
know, never.
Never! The new kid on the dynamic language block is Julia
https://julialang.org/.
It's a very well designed language that feels a lot like Lua. Because of
the grea
On 5/9/20 10:13 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
PHP is still the easiest way to toss up an interactive website.
Toss one up - perhaps.
If that's not your beat,
My beat is to write readable code that the guy who comes after me can maintain,
not to write throw-away code.
I'm all in favor of nicely
On 5/9/20 9:59 PM, David Crayford wrote:
I do a lot of backend web development work. The company I work for offer a Z/OS
port of PHP as part of ported tools. Nobody uses it internally. We do have a
lot of products coming online that use Node.js. The young guys seem to be able
to get stuff up a
I didn't mean to imply PHP was any better than the others. I just tend
to head for it first because I'm relatively comfortable with it.
On 5/9/2020 8:59 PM, David Crayford wrote:
I do a lot of backend web development work. The company I work for offer a Z/OS
port of PHP as part of ported tool
> PHP is still the easiest way to toss up an interactive website.
Toss one up - perhaps.
> If that's not your beat,
My beat is to write readable code that the guy who comes after me can maintain,
not to write throw-away code.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
_
I do a lot of backend web development work. The company I work for offer a Z/OS
port of PHP as part of ported tools. Nobody uses it internally. We do have a
lot of products coming online that use Node.js. The young guys seem to be able
to get stuff up and and running in matter of hours next not
On 5/9/20 9:33 PM, Tom Brennan wrote:
Nice web site and pottery!
Thanks from me and from Sumi von Dassow!
PHP has long been my favorite even for larger web applications, and
also for scripting under Windows. I was just about to try to learn
something new though - web page scraping in whatev
Nice web site and pottery!
PHP has long been my favorite even for larger web applications, and also
for scripting under Windows. I was just about to try to learn something
new though - web page scraping in whatever language they use for Chrome
plug-ins. Now I guess I'll have to look at this
On 5/9/20 9:25 PM, David Crayford wrote:
That’s debatable! Most people would consider Node.js, Python Django or Ruby on
Rails paired with a JavaScript framework like React to be far superior to PHP.
Far superior, perhaps.
Easier to get it done fast, like in a day or two, changing it a few
mi
That’s debatable! Most people would consider Node.js, Python Django or Ruby on
Rails paired with a JavaScript framework like React to be far superior to PHP.
> On 10 May 2020, at 11:12 am, Jack J. Woehr wrote:
>
>> On 5/9/20 9:01 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>> Flaws, yes. Obscure, not nearly as
On 5/9/20 9:01 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
Flaws, yes. Obscure, not nearly as much as it deserves. Fun? Well, it's not my
dog.
PHP is still the easiest way to toss up an interactive website.
Which is why it hangs around, supported by individuals charged with the
task of bring up fairly complex
Flaws, yes. Obscure, not nearly as much as it deserves. Fun? Well, it's not my
dog.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Jack J. Woehr [j...@well.com]
Sent:
On 5/9/20 7:53 PM, David Crayford wrote:
No it’s not it’s a terrible language
Oh, don't be such a siwwy wabbit. It's a lot of fun. Despite its flaws
and obscurity, it's a lot of fun to code in and widely used in the IBM i
world, which I mostly inhabit these days.
--
Jack J. Woehr # Scie
Now if they could just bring z/OS support for Kotlin, Lua, Perl, Raku, Ruby and
Rust up to date ...
Yes, bringing the port up to date includes first porting it ;-)
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion L
Not really the same thing, but I love Dave Barry's comment on brand naming (see
tagline).
---
Bob Bridges, robhbrid...@gmail.com, cell 336 382-7313
/* I also attended Friday night's baseball game between the Marlins and the San
Francisco Giants at the stadium here. It was originally named "Cand
When you have almost no reference material, the internet was 15 years away.
A trip to the National Lending library in Boston Spa and hand copying from
a Dr Dobbs journal is the best you can do on a limited budget and time
frame.
On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 12:24 PM Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Java?
>
>
Java?
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gmail.com]
Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2020 10:05 PM
To: IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU
Subject: Re:
True, the pirates also enjoyed innocent merriment, especially paradoxes.
These days I'm so frustrated with google's race to the bottom that I often use
wiki as my search engine of choice. I really want a Do What I Said (DWIS)
search engine with regexen.
Bubble sort is an N**2 sort; for a reason
While I certainly like HLASM and PL/I, I am always interested in new languages.
Try it, you might like it.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
Wayne Bickerd
I am the very model of a modern garbage collector.
Interesting wiki Seymour. I did write some programs on the Apple II in
Basic and remember those huge pauses. We did a lot of memory string sorting
to get ordered data from the primitive floppy disks. We thought it was our
assembler bubble sort tha
Yes. And there is no mention in the Java spec that mentions deterministic GC
which is why it’s not suitable for life safety software. My bad. I shouldn’t
assume that these are common knowledge.
> On 10 May 2020, at 9:57 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
> ObG&S You don't see a value in being a sour
ObG&S You don't see a value in being a source of innocent merriment, of
innocent merriment?
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gm
I might if I had a real search engine :-(
However, you may find the wiki article [[Garbage collection (computer
science)]] educational, especially [[Garbage collection (computer
science)#Real-time systems]]. The literature on the subject goes back decades.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://ma
No it’s not it’s a terrible language. It’s so bad it’s almost always the butt
of jokes in the programming community
https://www.i-programmer.info/news/98-languages/6758-the-reason-for-the-weird-php-function-names.html
> On 10 May 2020, at 9:49 am, Jack J. Woehr wrote:
>
>> On 5/9/20 7:12 PM, S
On 5/9/20 7:12 PM, Seymour J Metz wrote:
Python certainly has a lot of eyeballs, although I'm still seeing calls for PHP,
PHP is a fun language for coding small, interactive websites like the
one I coded "by hand" for my wife's pottery https://herwheel.com
Python is a masterfully designed, m
Google deterministic garbage collection. It may be educational.
> On 10 May 2020, at 9:25 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
> Since when is timing part of classifying languages? If the outputs are
> deterministic then they are deterministic, regardless of whether the
> performance is deterministic.
Since when is timing part of classifying languages? If the outputs are
deterministic then they are deterministic, regardless of whether the
performance is deterministic.
Further, it is by no means a given that garbage collection must introduce
unpredictable delays.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
> C++ type of language
I have no idea what that means
Warts inherited from C?
Object Oriented?
The same object model as C++?
The same STL as C++?
> HLASM and PL/I zealots need not apply!
Why? Are you prejudiced against us? Many of us are just as open to new
languages as people
How can a language that may pause and run GC cycle at any time be deterministic?
Which is why Java is unsuitable for use in safety critical software such as
avionics or life support machines.
> On 10 May 2020, at 9:05 am, Seymour J Metz wrote:
>
> Garbage collected? How does that interfere wi
Good language to learn? Unless you have some way to predict the vagaries of
fashion, pick languages that suit the tasks you want to deal with and that are
available on your platforms. Don't choose or rule out Go based on its current
or predicted popularity.
Python certainly has a lot of eyeball
Garbage collected? How does that interfere with determinism?
Is there a z/OS port of Rust?
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] on behalf of
David Crayford [dcrayf...@gma
Perl compiles into an internal form and may not be the best choice for truly
trivial scripts; if I needed a Hello World command I'd write it in PL/I or
REXX. but when you're parsing an e-mail, parsing each URL, looking up each
domain name and doing miscellaneous sanity checks, the start-up time
IMHO the real deficiencies in C++ are what it inherited from C.
As to the name Go, my only objection is that there was already a Go! language.
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV
Go is not a replacement for C++. It’s a GC language which makes it completely
unsuitable for deterministic programming domains. Rust is the C++ replacement
with RAII and memory ownership baked in.
> On 10 May 2020, at 2:44 am, Charles Mills wrote:
>
> +1 on the name.
>
> I read an article on
Not sure how it works under the covers but my "hello, world" test took
forever to run first time through.
On Sun, May 10, 2020 at 10:46 AM Seymour J Metz wrote:
> Sometimes people write in what their employer knows. I once had to process
> SMF data in COBOL because the president of the company d
"search engine": See "race to the bottom".
Remember that you are not the customer, you are the product. What I wouldn't
give for a DWIS search engine that supported regexen!
--
Shmuel (Seymour J.) Metz
http://mason.gmu.edu/~smetz3
From: IBM Mainframe Di
I wonder where it leaves the code/platform conversion tools.
We're evaluating RFIs for ADABAS/Natural and CA-GEN and I expect there's a
bunch of others coming along.
The great CASE tool IEW, James Martin evangalisation of the 90's seems to
have hit the buffers.
There are conversions for these, h
Sometimes people write in what their employer knows. I once had to process SMF
data in COBOL because the president of the company didn't like PL/I.
Given a free hand, I use the best tool for the job. I like PL/I and REXX a lot
more than Perl, but I use Perl when I need, e.g., packages from CPAN.
Very cool
On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 6:04 PM Alan Young wrote:
>
> There is a port but it is a couple of years old.
>
> https://github.com/zos-go/go
>
>
> IBM has a recent post about it coming to zOS.
>
>
> https://developer.ibm.com/mainframe/2020/04/24/ibm-intends-to-enable-go-on-z-os/
>
>
There is a port but it is a couple of years old.
https://github.com/zos-go/go
IBM has a recent post about it coming to zOS.
https://developer.ibm.com/mainframe/2020/04/24/ibm-intends-to-enable-go-on-z-os/
From: Ed Jaffe
Sent: Saturday, May 9, 2020 14:58
To: I
On 5/9/2020 2:12 PM, scott Ford wrote:
Oh yes, I agree, I had a friend say that GO and Python were great to learn,
I am open minded..
Python is available on z/OS. Can Go availability be far behind?
--
Phoenix Software International
Edward E. Jaffe
831 Parkview Drive North
El Segundo, CA 90245
Jack,
Oh yes, I agree, I had a friend say that GO and Python were great to learn,
I am open minded..
Scott
On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 4:20 PM Jack J. Woehr wrote:
> On 5/9/20 1:59 PM, scott Ford wrote:
> > Personally, I think *sometimes people write in what they know.
>
> It's good to get outside
On 5/9/20 1:59 PM, scott Ford wrote:
Personally, I think *sometimes people write in what they know.
It's good to get outside your zone sometimes. If you decide to do so,
both Python and Go are good choices!
--
Jack J. Woehr # Science is more than a body of knowledge. It's a way of
www.we
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Go_(programming_language)
Regards,
Mark Regan, K8MTR
*CTO1 USNR-Retired, 1969-1991*
*Nationwide Insurance, Retired, 1986-2017*
Facebook: https://www.facebook.com/mark.t.regan
LinkedIn: https://www.linkedin.com/in/mark-t-regan
Maranatha! <><
On Sat, May 9, 2020 at
Not sure what you mean. I just searched Google on G and got good hits: letter,
subway line, some Korean pop thing. Ditto Goo, the gummy liquid and the Goo Goo
Dolls.
Charles
-Original Message-
From: IBM Mainframe Discussion List [mailto:IBM-MAIN@LISTSERV.UA.EDU] On Behalf
Of Paul Gilm
Jack,
Personally, I think *sometimes people write in what they know. If they know
C it’s C or if they know JavaScript , it’s JavaScript. I know companies
aren’t paying for education, which I feel ultimately hurts them in a lot of
ways. I learned C and experimented on Z/OS and liked its abilities i
On Sat, 9 May 2020 11:44:42 -0700, Charles Mills wrote:
>+1 on the name.
>
>I read an article on branding once that said if consumers can mess up your
>name, they will, so be aware of that when you pick a name. The East Bay
>Municipal Utility District (EBMUD) is universally known in the SF Bay A
+1 on the name.
I read an article on branding once that said if consumers can mess up your
name, they will, so be aware of that when you pick a name. The East Bay
Municipal Utility District (EBMUD) is universally known in the SF Bay Area as
"East Bay Mud."
Goo, with its nod to "++", Google and
On 5/9/20 12:00 PM, scott Ford wrote:
Charles,
I heard Go was supposed to be a good language to learn. Interestingly, I
read an article saying Python will take over from Java. Personally, I
learned Python liked it over java. I have to look at Go.
Python is a wonderful language both for routine
All,
If you haven’t checked out “Medium” , it’s an app on my iPad and worth the
yearly subscription. There are tons of articles by knowledgeable folks on a
ton of subjects, including programming , AI , etc ..
Scott
--
Scott Ford
IDMWORKS
z/OS Development
Steve,
I also rather enjoyed HLASM and PL/1. I am self-taught in several
programming languages, so learned C kinda on the fly, but really liked it.
I liked the structured macros in HLASM also. Makes life easier.
Scott
On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 2:02 PM Steve Smith wrote:
> I actually love HLASM, P
I actually love HLASM, PL/I, and older versions of C++. C++ was a leader
in OO programming, but imho, it's gotten so stupefyingly complicated that
it's may not be humanly possible to write decent programs with it. Go
sounds like a pretty good reset, but at this point, I only know what I've
read a
Charles,
I heard Go was supposed to be a good language to learn. Interestingly, I
read an article saying Python will take over from Java. Personally, I
learned Python liked it over java. I have to look at Go.
Scott
On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 1:44 PM Charles Mills wrote:
> +1
>
> Everyone here who
+1
Everyone here who likes the general idea of a C++ type of language (HLASM and
PL/I zealots need not apply!) but dislikes some or many of the specifics of C++
should check out Go. (The name of the language, as I understand it, is Go.
Unfortunately the word Go is pretty heavily overloaded, whi
On 5/9/20 1:58 AM, Wayne Bickerdike wrote:
Nearly as good as YAL (Yet Another Language).
Well I downloaded, ran some code. Yawn. What's an old guy to do?
Don't underestimate Golang. It's an amazing language.
It's like the genetically groomed offspring of C++ and Java with the
best traits of
The more modern languages supported on z/OS the better. Otherwise it
will just be viewed as a legacy platform and will slowly wither on vine.
You may find it
uninteresting but if we want to attract young people to the platform
it's going to need something a little bit more contemporary then COBO
Nearly as good as YAL (Yet Another Language).
Well I downloaded, ran some code. Yawn. What's an old guy to do?
Last three "needed now" jobs were, COBOL, Assembler and PL/I.
go West!
On Sat, May 9, 2020 at 4:10 PM Frank Swarbrick
wrote:
>
> https://developer.ibm.com/mainframe/2020/04/24/ibm-in
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