some people don't live in the US but do have families
50% of us are
flying out saturday to be there for sunday all day meetings, flying
eastwards on friday, to get back mid day saturday, we lose 2 weekends.
compare this to intra-US flite to and from, i don';t think esxtending
friday is
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], USELESS SSELES
U typed:
Am wondering how and where the
webaddress mappings taking place? Meaning if I type
www.xyz.com in a browser and (say) this xyz.com is
running on 212.34.54.89, then does my Internet Service
Provider lookup every place
a node might be simpler but the system composed of a graph of suvch
nodes more complex - you (as switch or router vendors) might get to
make your h/w or s/w simpler at the level of forwarding, bu the overal
syusytem that manages routes and traffic might be less simple and
(therefore) more
once upon a time, in a far off corner of a small field
in north london, a small CS department developed a cute
x.400 mail system, that incorporated relaying between most
extant e-mail protocol channels (smtp, uucp, grey book etc)
and accomodated translation of multimedia content including
other
see
http://www-mice.cs.ucl.ac.uk/ietf/
for our alternative guide to london for ietfers
now has added links on the Proms and on telephone wiring
cheers
jon
i was promted yesterday by a couple of (brit) WG chairs to send this:
remember -there's some info about london at:
URL:http://www-mice.cs.ucl.ac.uk/ietf/
as suggested by ietfers - more suggestions always welcome too
note london in august is v popular with tourists as there are so
few cows
What. Does that imply the preference of redesign to revision in IETF ?
No.
If it ain't broke, don't fix it is a colloquial saying meaning
Do not embark on repairs of things that do not need repair. It
means Don't repair a non-broken window. Don't repair a working lamp.
Don't fix
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Steven M. Be
llovin typed:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Bill Manning writes:
semantically confused. why would sailors be on the
bridge? (the one over the canal)
Right -- they should be using routers, not bridges.
but there's only 7 seas - 802.1d
there's a discussion on how to make some simple classes of
assymetric multisender apps work with
SSM, but there's not really anything useful
for genuine multi-peer applications - what is needed is to
revitalise the work on bidir pim, and then retrofit the SSM
addressing (.e. what we proposed in
for those of you in the US
april fools day dates from the introduction of the gregorian calendar
in the 16th century, and invovled moving the start of the year from
apr 1 to jan 1
in france, a posson d'avril is a rather nice phrase for a person who
is subject of one of these (supposed harmless)
IETFers visiting london may wish to check out a few differences
between the way europeans (and the UK is part of "yurp") say things in
english, as this is the dominant language of the IETF meeting, but of
course, american english is not the dominant dialect in blighty.
so first off, when
This should be fertile ground for topics for PhD students.
We still have PhD students, yes?
yes, but no faculty to advise them - see below
of course, if we fixed the multicast and the mbone (or used
akamai/inktomi/idigital island, foobarbaz.com) we'd be able to
leverage the internet to
as anywhere. As long
as their results are put in front of the WG, I don't see
a problem here.
Brian
Margaret Wasserman wrote:
Not to pick on Jon specifically, but how is this common IETF
attitude consistent with the IETF's stated commitment to
open process?
At 06:52 AM 3/23/01 ,
4.2.2.20010323090914.01abfd30@localhost, Margaret Wasserman typed:
Not to pick on Jon specifically, but how is this common IETF
attitude consistent with the IETF's stated commitment to
open process?
At 06:52 AM 3/23/01 , Jon Crowcroft wrote:
also,the wireless access fro mthe pub was inspired! we got really
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "Rahmat M. Samik-Ibrahim" typed:
No rocket science, but perhaps archaeology.
In the early 1980s, a unix box (68ks, vaxen, et.al.) came
with a multi-volume manuals, including an nroff guide.
In this millennium, not all distros have nroff guides.
Who is still
again, i don't know if the WHOLE IETF list wants to see this
discussion, nor if IDMR (which now looks at a fairly small piece of
the multicast picture) wants to be cc:d - the right place for this
discussion is probably pim, and possibly ssm, - idmr is about ready to
close down
the right
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kyle Lussier typ
ed:
"is anyone aware of any estimations of fraction of Internet users
who are behind firewalls and NATs?"
How about for business users? If the assumption can be made
that most Q3 players are home based (which would probably
have a lower
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ali Boudani typed:
First the CBT protocol was created to use shared tree solutions because
DVMRP and the other dense mode protocols werent scalable. there were
many problems with CBT (which is bidirectional) so PIM-SM was cretaed
which provide some switching
and for many-to-many, for congestion control (to meet transport area
requirements)
i think (but of course i am usually wrong) that we may see progress on
this in 2002...
Jon Crowcroft wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Ali Boudani typed:
First the CBT protocol was created to use
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "J. Noel Chiappa" typed:
From: Bob Braden [EMAIL PROTECTED]
I agree with Noel's implication: are the Internet Drafts and RFCs
becoming a vanity press?
Ah, Noel didn't mean to imply anything - I was just boggled at the size of
the list of
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], joaquin.riveraro
[EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:
Perhaps we ( the IETF ) should have a library of standard,
downloadable translation / formatting tools that would help people to write
in whatever format they choose, then convert it to the required ASCII.
However,
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Stephen McHenry typed
On a more serious note, having done a lot of instruction over the years, it
shouldn't be about ego (I paid my "understanding dues" - everyone else
should too!!), it should be about communication... i.e., how quickly can we
effectively
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], gra
[EMAIL PROTECTED] typed:
Let's consider a few basic principles.
ok - lots of good points below - a few responses...
1. Neither ASCII nor XML are ever displayed. They are CODES for
representing characters in a computer. It is the CHARACTERS ( glyphs )
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jon Crowcroft typed:
on another topic, we noticed that we cannot see certain sites that
provide some interesgint IP anonymizing services -we ran a
traceroute -p xyzd to them and discovered that some hi-level ISPs are
running some port filtering - interesting
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Taylor Salman typed:
ASCII text shouldn't be accepted because:br
Pen and paper is by far the most portable format on the planet and
beyond.
i disagree -
i) the americans spent a lot of money on spaceworthy pens,
but the russians showed that PENCILS are fine
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harald Alvestrand typ
ed:
no no no - like ascii, pencil and surface is re-usable, both for
revised drafts, and for keeping warm if the minneapolis weather should
change too quickly
stone is ok, but only for full standards and bcp
At 15:23 22/02/2001 +, Jon
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jon Crowcroft typed:
ii) paper burns at farenheit 451 (ref: burroughs, '63, truffaut '68],
people pointed out (correctly) that the right reference here is
bradbury (ray, of light, not malcolm, of history) and not
burroughs (not Edgar (of detective story prize
of course if NAT is so cool,
why not make _every_ hop do NAT (Naughty Awful Terrible stuff)
instead of MPLS (My Protocol's a Lot Slower)
as a way of aggregate traffic engineering without recourse to
level 2 (which we all know is making a lot less money than level 3
right now)
i mean they
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Moore typed:
I don't agree that abundant IPv6 addresses remove the need for something
akin to a port number. They might remove the need for transport-level
multiplexing, but only if any host could allocate a sufficiently large
subnet, and it's not clear
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Brim type
d:
Although address obfuscation through combining NAT with your firewall
can provide a small amount of additional security.
against which attacks ? it doesnt provide better privacy, or non
repudation, or access control, or any normal service
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "J. Noel Chiappa" typed:
Keith, why don't you start an NAT-Haters mailing list, and take all this
disgust with NAT's there? (I'm quite serious about this.)
You seem to be having problems accepting that fact that NAT's are selling
several orders of magnitudes
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Jon Crowcroft typed:
if multihoming is killing routing coz default free zone routers have
too many entries
and NAT is killing users coz they can't get always on addresses
why not have multihomed sites (aren't they usually server/core
provider sites) LEASE
o'dell's GSE draft addressed renumbering perfectly.
In message 5.0.2.1.2.20010123015631.02bbba30@localhost, "David R. Conrad" typ
ed:
Kyle,
At 03:53 AM 1/23/2001 -0500, Kyle Lussier wrote:
It is a horried idea to start setting up NATs on cell phones,
Hmm. We should probably tell that
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Moore typed:
The IETF has done it's job with 6to4, but like you said we can't force
people to deploy it. But let's stop and think about 6to4. Aren't some of
the same "tricks" or ALG's that are planned to make applications work
with IPv4 NAT,
the bggest problems with security ssytems are generally 90% to do with
design errors at level 10 (human, not policitcal, economic,
application, transport etc)
it would be interestign to run a _real_ experiment in 3 types of
voting (comuter based, networked computer based and traiditional) and
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
Vijay Ramachandran Iyer typed:
I am a Masters' student at NCSU in Computer Networking. Recently
registered at the ietf.org site. I am toying with the idea for a project
in VoIP or Mobile IP for my IP class. What are the relevant RFC's should I
be looking for?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Francis D
upont typed:
Vernon, I fully agree with you: there is no reason to get multipart
messages in technical discussion mailing lists. Even if your solution
seems drastic this is the way we should go.
i'd prefer to see us develop a more 21st century
some of the folks on this list aren't american or US citezens and
might think that this is a bit presumptious.but here goes:-
the first thing the white house should do is educate its customers and
organise voting properly
the next thing it should do is apply for membership of the European
one of nature's great dualities: statedulness will take root in the
most barren soil, even though datagrams will try to route around it
j
though if nat speak unto nat, then ipv6 be born
I understand that there are pressures to do multihoming, but I just don't see
how NAT (i.e. address sharing) is having much effect one way or the other on
the intensity of the pressure to do multi-homing.
NATs allow users to be irresponsible about the addressing since they
dont require you
Sean,
there were several interesting talks in the ietf plenary last night and
i'd also like to respond
1/ randy's "woah, the DNS is bust" talk
solution - put your named boot file on your web server and set
up robots.txt right
get the 15 or so most popular search engines to start
i can just see it when the aliens land and ask how to connect to our
infrastructure, we'll have to say
oh we used to have an internet, but it
lost something in the translation
j.
its appropriate that the 51st ietf is gonna be in the '51st state" -
we've been playing with market forces for 23 years (18 years of
margaret thatcher then john major, then tony blair) - solutons in
london will involve vickrey auctions for the seats - themoney will be
used to pay for upgrading
At least the drafts coming into the IETF don't show the
same behavior as scientific papers, which is that title
length directly correlates with the number of authors.
perhaps we shpould encourage i-ds (and rfcs) to have authors from as
many countries as possible so that they can be
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Henning Schulzrinne typed:
"Just because you're paranoid doesn't mean they are not after you... "
Apparently, Pillsbury is on a bigger crusade, as the editorial change at
http://cacheoff.ircache.net/ is indeed due to lawyer pressure, based on
reports from the
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Harald Alvestrand typ
ed:
MBONE tunnels to connect, and a widely available (Linux?) client that would
connect to that server, and behave like a multicast router?
"start this program on a spare PC, and you too can watch the IETF multicast".
we have reflectors
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Telecom Regulato
ry Commission of Sri Lanka typed:
Why cannot IETF arrange Netmeeting sessions. So that all new techniques
such as Video, Audio, White board, Chat etc. can be used to exchange the
valuable knowledge members posses.
we do - we not only have put
anyone with a worthy i-d which is not gonna make it as an RFC could do
worse than consider submiting it to INETa lot of the papers there
are in that line and would then count as prior art, be archival, and
citable.
possible source of pressure/problem:
interestingly enough, in tenure, most
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Magnus Danielson typed:
For most of the time it is just plain stupid, however, there are material wich
is published in ID form but later down the line is being dropped but still form
the fundament for design decissions made in IDs making it all the way to RFC.
of Content should be left to 'the Law of Natural Selection' and the First
Amendment Rights of the US Constitution (Freedom of Speech), which is the least
expensive and the long term good solution.
On Wed, 06 September 2000, Jon Crowcroft wrote:
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Maha
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Maha
devan Iyer typed:
On Tue, 5 Sep 2000, Barathy, RamaSubramaniam wrote:
Hello Everybody,
Would it not be nice to have some sort of quality control task force that
assigns a quality level for the web sites through out the world.
This would
o course, if we were to internationalise the elevator ights, we';d
have to syubtract 1 (as we count from zero, not 1) and then they'd all
be even numbersunless of course one of them was the one even
prime...
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
"Dawson, Peter D" typed:
oh... did the other
In message 008601bff09b$8b32e9b0$0a0a@contactdish, Anthony Atkielski type
d:
Well been British, we are to polite and would not like to make a fuss. :)
Yeah, the ones who liked to make a fuss went off and started their own
democracies centuries ago.
So the British really don't mind
In message 01dc01bfed78$0e7a55a0$0a0a@contactdish, Anthony Atkielski type
d:
I don't understand why the FBI feels that it needs to have a top-secret
black box attached to the ISP's network. Why not just have the ISP provide
a copy of all e-mail to or from the specified mailbox?
to object to a STUPID pointless waste of money,
not to intercept at feasiable (E.g. end systems - such as email
servers, web, web cachce/proxy, napster server etc) points
-Original Message-----
From: Jon Crowcroft [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, July 14, 2000 12:03 PM
To: Anthony
Any comments on the content of the draft?
I would go further - first to define by exclusion, secondly to define
a new class of providers (according tro common uisage) so that
discussion can proceed
An ISP _hosts_ its own and customer's hosts. Hosts follow the
hosts requirements RFC, at
Jon, I wonder how WAP will fit into Multicast apps - even
if its single line txt based msg's app ?
football scores/(tennis etc)
share price (look at stockbroker trading terminal - they have very
small amount of realestate for the given instrument)
many many things would work v. well -
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Alan Simpkins t
yped:
Valdis, I agree with you a hundred percent. The most
expensive part of infrastructure is pulling the
cables/fiber necessary to build the infrastrucuture.
thats why intelsat and a cosortium of telcos has a charity that built
a box that is
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
"Parkinson, Jonathan" typed:
Anyone care to start a discussion about Bluetooth and how it
may/will impact the future of communications ? And the new generation of
Virus's that could come along with this technology.
no. but a email thread on
bluetooth is
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Mohsen BANAN-Public
typed:
I request that you review the attached document and
email us your comments to:
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
its a nice idea
there is, after all, a free market in standards orgaanisations
however, the ietf is the one with the
the problem with sandboxes is that they are monolithic as is this
discussion of mail - if i have a notion of a compartmentalized system
with users, and access rights (like almost all operating systems from the
late 60s onwards, but not like
simple desk top single user executives as found on
if once it was a virus
which it wasnt
it surely is a worm now
of course,
microsoft have succeeded beyond david tenenhouses wildest dreams
in active network deployment
:-|
j.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Paul Robinson typed:
Even better, why doesn't the IETF employ a bunch of people dressed in
black suits and wearing sun glasses to go around and 'enforce' IPv6...
we do, but you keep forgetting.
:-)
j. iab member, and official "man in black"
1/ i think microsoft and the alleged hacker have provived an exxcellent lesson in
active networks
2/ is anyone interested in jamming at the next IETF (folk, jazz, rock, thrash, triphop
etc - you know, primal
scream...) - i can bring a guitar (or bass or flute or something...) but local
"noone ever got fired for buying ibm"
this was ironic coz ibm was expensive, but worked
someone should get fired for buying someone elses prodiucts
irony
no class action
just reality checkpoint time...
for a systemic view,
some stuff is engineered better than other stuff - see mark
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Masataka Ohta ty
ped:
Is it fair if providers using iMODE or WAP are advertised
to be ISPs?
Is it fair if providers using NAT are advertised to be ISPs?
My answer to both questions is
No, while they may be Internet Service Access
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "J. Noel Chiappa" typed:
right, noels wrong.
Noel is happy to wait, and see who's right. (I've been through this exact
same experience before, with CLNP, so I understand the life-cycle.) So far,
I've been waiting for quite a few years with IPv6, and so
henning,
good stuff...
people would do well to read this -
also, all attempts to fix NATs so as to ameliorate these problems
have _exactly_ the same deployment complexity as IPv6 - there's a
quote somewhere from yakov rehkter to this effect (can't find it
exactly, but he was coming the ther
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Matt Crawford typed:
The source address of a datagram was an architectural mistake, and should
never have been in the mandatory packet format.
Nahh, the mistake was ignoring the source address when routing forwarding.
thats an implementation detail not a
Bottom line is that IP-layer interception - even when done "right" -
has fairly limited applicability for location of nearby content.
Though the technique is so widely mis-applied that it might still be
useful to define what "right" means.
That sounds overly optimistic.
user
as ye sow, so shall ye weep...in reading this thread i guess i saw
several problems:
oxymoron alert
"thought...patent"
tautology alert
"sufficiently expensive...lawyer"
internet bogon alert
"find the server"
is a server where the ip address, DNS name, lat/long of the CPU,
memory, disk, or
infocom 2000 had 2 sessions (8 papers) from the main people - check
out their web site (papers are online..ia ieee)
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Barbara Bao typed:
Dear Friends,
For my assignment, I need to know algorithms for discovering layer-3 and
layer-2 network topology. Where can I
My thought is this: I'd like to see a presumption of lack of novelty if an
idea gets raised in a public forum, even if it happens _after_ a patent has
been applied for, unless it can be shown that the information came from
leakage of proprietary information.
intersting idea
i would
the best work i know of on TCP behaviour _over_ ATM services is the
thesis (and papers by) Olivier Bonaventure -
http://www.info.fundp.ac.be/~obo/
cheers
jon
i was looking thru some old archives (1982 on - yes, thats right, from
just before this years college kids were born)
of the original tcp-ip maillist
and came across a message from mark crispin about a broken vax mailer
flooding neighbor mailservers with SYNs..amazing how nothings new
see
to people that think that the internet is mostly US centric, and will
go on being so, and that this is relevant to the IETF anyhow -
wrong, wrong, and also wrong!
um the Internet is now mostly commercial - the Eu and Asia each have MORE
money than the US, and also have growth economies. if you
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED],
"Parkinson, Jonathan" typed:
There is more than America out there ?
;-)
you mean america still exists - i thought it was actually a myth like
atlantis
-Original Message-
From: John Stracke [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday,
PROTECTED], L
loyd Wood typed:
jon crowcroft writes:
i dont care what SIZE it is - i only care whether i have the
application to view it - microsoft users sdjhould be educated in the
simple fact - not everyone has word or powerpoint or wants to buy
them - so NEVER EVER send a word or pp
einstein might have said that matter and energy are interchangeable
but space and time are not
i can buy a 10Gig disk for a lot less than the average per diem pay in
US/EU
there's too MANY emails, not too MUCH of each
j.
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Scott Bradner typed:
WAP is not an IETF activity - it is from the WAP Forum
http://www.wapforum.org/
and nearly as many clues as wires
happy winter solstice
cheers
jon
In message Pine.SOL.3.96.991215093330.5839F-10@mailer1, Jon Knight typed:
o Internet driving licences may seem a bit naff, but there
is value in requiring people to migrate to a power-user
status by at least trying to teach them that there are
consequences to using
The First International Workshop
Quality of future Internet Services (QofIS'2000)
25- 26 September 2000 in Berlin, Germany
http://www.fokus.gmd.de/events/qofis2000/
The purpose of this workshop is to present and discuss the design and
implementation techniques for QoS Engineering for Internet
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Valdis.Kletnieks@vt
.edu typed:
--==_Exmh_-374731876P
a) Do you have an incoming anonymous FTP drop *of your own*?
b) Are you willing to set up incoming FTP for one file?
c) What if you're one of the millions of people who use an ISP that
doesn't provide
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Yakov Rekhter typed:
Consider an alternative where the client decides to use IPv6. Granted,
the client could get enough IPv6 addresses for all purposes, regardless of
whether these purposes essential or not. But then in order for that
client to communicate
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], "J. Noel Chiappa" typed:
The various approaches to growing the Internet (IPv6, NAT's, etc) all have
costs and benefits -
yes, but propviders don't actually ASK the users what the COST is of a
NAT
the BT ADSL trial in london uses NATs and all the folks i know
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