Original Message -
From: John R Levine jo...@taugh.com
To: Yoav Nir y...@checkpoint.com
Cc: ietf@ietf.org
Sent: Sunday, August 04, 2013 10:47 PM
Subject: Re: Speaking of VAT
Ray said the tax guys told him the IETF would get back about half of
the
VAT it paid. That's unrelated to what
On 08/04/2013 02:54 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
While I think getting slides in on time is great for a lot of reasons, reading
the slides early isn't that important. What is important is that remote
people see the slides at the same time as local people. For that, it seems to
me that Meetecho
On 06/08/13 14:08, Keith Moore wrote:
On 08/04/2013 02:54 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
While I think getting slides in on time is great for a lot of reasons,
reading the slides early isn't that important. What is important is
that remote people see the slides at the same time as local people.
For
My understanding is that Germany has reciprocal VAT agreements with a
bunch of countries so if your employer is in one of those countries it may
be able to reclaim, but since the US isn't one of them I haven't looked in
detail.
John
VAT is a European Union tax that all member states are
to clarify, imho:
presentation != slides
making the best out of IETF meetings for both f2f and remote
participants is hard and yet worth our try.
back to our slides shipping tread, everybody has own opinion toward
whether I prefer/believe the slides should be uploaded earlier or not
so,
On 08/06/2013 09:08 AM, Keith Moore wrote:
On 08/04/2013 02:54 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
While I think getting slides in on time is great for a lot of
reasons, reading the slides early isn't that important. What is
important is that remote people see the slides at the same time as
local people.
On 8/5/2013 2:15 AM, Dan York wrote:
On the topic of badge-sensing at the mic, I seem to recall that we had this
working at an IETF sometime back in the RAI working groups. It was maybe 4 or 5
years ago and I think it may have been some student(s) under Henning
Schulzrinne at Columbia... but
On the topic of badge-sensing at the mic, I seem to recall that we had this
working at an IETF sometime back in the RAI working groups. It was maybe 4 or 5
years ago and I think it may have been some student(s) under Henning
Schulzrinne at Columbia... but I am not sure about that. I remember
On 7/29/13 4:54 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com wrote:
There are existing specs that does what CBOR does just as well that have
actual users.
Some of these were approached, and none of them thought that having a
standard for their format was worth the amount of heartache that dealing
If the WG/session chairs did not receive the slides at least a few days prior
to the meeting, then it is really hard for the WG chairs to make sure that
the slides support a discussion, rather than a presentation.
Given that we have meetings on Friday morning, and some people are very busy
Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
An entirely different approach would be to have all speakers make a
'reservation' into a single meetecho (or whatever) online queue, and then
get
called in order, whether local or remote and independent of what
microphone
they are at.
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 11:41 AM, Joe Hildebrand hil...@cursive.net wrote:
On 7/29/13 4:54 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com wrote:
There are existing specs that does what CBOR does just as well that have
actual users.
Some of these were approached, and none of them thought that
On 2013-08-06, at 10:26, Aaron Yi DING aaron.d...@cl.cam.ac.uk wrote:
to clarify, imho:
presentation != slides
In my experience, slides are mainly useful:
1. To convey information which is difficult to express accurately by voice only
(e.g. graphs, names of drafts, big numbers)
2. To
Hey Joe,
On 8/6/13 7:41 PM, Joe Abley wrote:
An example of (2) can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-dnsop-8.pdf where I
presented a one-slide problem statement that consisted entirely filled with
an xkcd cartoon. Once the room is suitably filled with
On Aug 6, 2013, at 1:41 PM, Joe Abley jab...@hopcount.ca wrote:
In my experience, slides are mainly useful:
1. To convey information which is difficult to express accurately by voice
only (e.g. graphs, names of drafts, big numbers)
Yup.
2. To distract the e-mail-reading audience in the
On 08/06/2013 11:06 AM, Andrew Feren wrote:
On 08/06/2013 09:08 AM, Keith Moore wrote:
On 08/04/2013 02:54 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
While I think getting slides in on time is great for a lot of
reasons, reading the slides early isn't that important. What is
important is that remote people see
On 2013-08-06, at 14:00, Hadriel Kaplan hadriel.kap...@oracle.com wrote:
An example of (2) can be found in
http://www.ietf.org/proceedings/87/slides/slides-87-dnsop-8.pdf where I
presented a one-slide problem statement that consisted entirely filled with
an xkcd cartoon.
Huh, who knew
On Aug 6, 2013, at 10:52 AM, Eliot Lear l...@cisco.com wrote:
But if those lines contain questions, it gets you to the point where there is
discussion, which is just fine, as you point out here:
The best outcome at a working group meeting is that, as a presenter, you
spend most of your
On 2013-08-06, at 11:27, Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
On 8/5/2013 2:15 AM, Dan York wrote:
[...] I remember that when you went to the mic you put your badge up to
this sensor and your name appeared in the jabber room.
... and the main screen in the room, if we're thinking about
On 8/6/13 11:34 AM, Phillip Hallam-Baker hal...@gmail.com wrote:
The issue here is whether this proposal should be an IETF Proposed
STANDARD.
standards-track != standard, right?
I think that is nuts and I would think it just as much nuts if it was my
proposal. We have no real world
Could be an app that put you in the queue and used your
laptop/tablet/smartphone microphone to get the audio.
On Tuesday, August 6, 2013, Michael Richardson wrote:
Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net javascript:; wrote:
An entirely different approach would be to have all speakers make a
2) No support for tag compression.
(I assume this was about map keys, not about tags.)
That's an interesting requirement, and one that I think could be added to
the design if there were others that felt motivated to help. I think I
can see a way that it could be added later: create a new
On Aug 6, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
It was an experiment. It was awkward and inaccurate. It also raised basic
privacy concerns, what with wearing something that can be tracked as you move
around.
Ironically, this IETF everyone who stayed at the
On Aug 6, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
An entirely different approach would be to have all speakers make a
'reservation' into a single meetecho (or whatever) online queue, and then get
called in order, whether local or remote and independent of what microphone
Ironically, this IETF everyone who stayed at the Intercontinental was walking
around
with an RFID key in their pocket the whole meeting. How many of us put them
in
faraday cages?
I put all of my cards in a faraday cage, but perhaps that's just me,
and because I carry an RFID passport card.
On 06/08/13 19:03, Keith Moore wrote:
But if we're only concerned with making presentation slides available,
we're selling ourselves very short. That's the point I'm trying to
make.
Keith
Hi Keith,
Thanks for clarifying it - agree with you fully on this point.
Keeping a clear goal in
On 2013-08-06, at 15:35, Aaron Yi DING aaron.d...@cl.cam.ac.uk wrote:
PS: I personally find it rather funny to see people claiming one's own
approach works better and so forth implicitly indicating they really
understand what remote/f2f participants need,
For the record, I have zero
On 8/6/13 1:11 PM, Carsten Bormann c...@tzi.org wrote:
If a CBOR application does require initial signature bytes for
self-description purposes, I would suggest using something like
0xd8 0xf8 ...data item...
which decodes as tag248(data item); we could define 248 as a no-op tag.
Or a
On 06/08/13 18:31, Michael Richardson wrote:
Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
An entirely different approach would be to have all speakers make
a
'reservation' into a single meetecho (or whatever) online queue,
and then get
called in order, whether local or remote and
On 8/6/2013 12:15 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Aug 6, 2013, at 11:27 AM, Dave Crocker d...@dcrocker.net wrote:
An entirely different approach would be to have all speakers make a
'reservation' into a single meetecho (or whatever) online queue, and then get
called in order, whether local or remote
On 8/6/13 11:58 AM, Joe Abley wrote:
For what it's worth (not much) I would miss the line at the mic.
There are useful conversations that happen within the line that I
think we would lose if the mic followed the speaker, and I also think
that pipelining the people at the mic promotes more
On 2013-08-06, at 15:54, Aaron Yi DING aaron.d...@cl.cam.ac.uk wrote:
On 06/08/13 18:31, Michael Richardson wrote:
And move the microphones to the people, rather than the other way around.
This is indeed friendly, although standing up to walk a bit is also good, at
least f2f
On Aug 6, 2013, at 1:31 PM, Michael Richardson mcr+i...@sandelman.ca wrote:
We can easily have three or four microphones that can play leap-frog around
the room.
+1
Of course, then we need a facilitator to wrest it away from filibusterers or
simply a mechanism for the chairs to mute a mic.
On Aug 6, 2013, at 4:05 PM, Paul Aitken pait...@cisco.com wrote:
Could there be a conflict if IETF badges also have RFID tags attached, eg we
get Room 1283 at the mic?
No. Only known IDs would register. The RFID badge just has a number—it
doesn't say Room 1283.
[to no one in particular]
Uhhh... I can't tell if you folks are being serious about this idea or not, but
in case you are being serious... ISTM there's such a thing as too much
technology being a bad thing. If you think technical glitches now-and-then
cause issues with remote participants
On Aug 6, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Hadriel Kaplan hadriel.kap...@oracle.com wrote:
If the problem is we don't know who's speaking, then fix that problem. In
WGs I go to, both the WG chairs and the jabber scribes regularly yell NAME!
if someone forgets to say it. Unlike DNS Ops, this isn't rocket
On 08/06/2013 01:46 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Aug 6, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Hadriel Kaplan hadriel.kap...@oracle.com wrote:
If the problem is we don't know who's speaking, then fix that problem. In WGs I go to,
both the WG chairs and the jabber scribes regularly yell NAME! if someone forgets to
say
On 08/06/2013 12:58 PM, Joe Abley wrote:
For what it's worth (not much) I would miss the line at the mic. There are
useful conversations that happen within the line that I think we would lose if
the mic followed the speaker
If the conversations are useful, should they not be happening as
Brian Rosen b...@brianrosen.net wrote:
Could be an app that put you in the queue and used your laptop/tablet/
smartphone microphone to get the audio.
I was thinking that too, but I didn't want to get ahead of the problem
statement of mic access :-)
On 08/06/2013 04:03 PM, Melinda Shore wrote:
On 8/6/13 11:58 AM, Joe Abley wrote:
For what it's worth (not much) I would miss the line at the mic.
There are useful conversations that happen within the line that I
think we would lose if the mic followed the speaker, and I also think
that
On 08/06/2013 01:47 PM, Doug Barton wrote:
On 08/06/2013 01:46 PM, Ted Lemon wrote:
On Aug 6, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Hadriel Kaplan hadriel.kap...@oracle.com
wrote:
If the problem is we don't know who's speaking, then fix that
problem. In WGs I go to, both the WG chairs and the jabber scribes
Doug Barton wrote:
Ted Lemon wrote:
M, Hadriel Kaplan hadriel.kap...@oracle.com wrote:
If the problem is we don't know who's speaking, then fix that problem.
This doesn't work very well. [...] nobody likes getting yelled at.
I certainly don't like _having_ to yell.
Then come up with an
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As I was watching the conversations in the microphone lines during some of the
WG sessions, I thought that we could make a small improvement in the
organization that could result in a better meeting. My first observation was
that there is two
I would think any kind of multiple non-fixed microphone setup (maybe even
fixed microphones) would need to be tested pretty thoroughly before use, as
feedback problems can ruin a discussion. That would include laptop
microphones. One way to alleviate this would be to require the use of
On Aug 6, 2013, at 4:46 PM, Ted Lemon ted.le...@nominum.com wrote:
On Aug 6, 2013, at 4:37 PM, Hadriel Kaplan hadriel.kap...@oracle.com wrote:
If the problem is we don't know who's speaking, then fix that problem. In
WGs I go to, both the WG chairs and the jabber scribes regularly yell
Ulrich Herberg wrote:
I think that the heat was exceptional. I have grown up in Munich, and
I have rarely ever seen it that hot (either in Munich or Berlin).
Maybe it's global warming? ;-)
Damn coincidences!
IETF 39 was in Munich (August 1997) ArabellaSheraton @ Arabella Park,
and it was
On Tue, Aug 6, 2013 at 3:52 PM, Martin Rex m...@sap.com wrote:
Ulrich Herberg wrote:
I think that the heat was exceptional. I have grown up in Munich, and
I have rarely ever seen it that hot (either in Munich or Berlin).
Maybe it's global warming? ;-)
Damn coincidences!
IETF 39 was in
--On Wednesday, August 07, 2013 00:52 +0200 Martin Rex
m...@sap.com wrote:
...
IETF 39 was in Munich (August 1997) ArabellaSheraton @
Arabella Park, and it was HOT pretty much the whole week.
If I recall, another very successful meeting in a place we
should go back to.
Now, if only the
On 08/06/2013 07:36 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
...
IETF 39 was in Munich (August 1997) ArabellaSheraton @
Arabella Park, and it was HOT pretty much the whole week.
If I recall, another very successful meeting in a place we
should go back to.
I liked Munich as a destination. But the hotel /
On Aug 6, 2013, at 4:48 PM, Keith Moore mo...@network-heretics.com wrote:
On 08/06/2013 07:36 PM, John C Klensin wrote:
...
IETF 39 was in Munich (August 1997) ArabellaSheraton @
Arabella Park, and it was HOT pretty much the whole week.
If I recall, another very successful meeting in a
Yes, a group from my lab did this, using short-range RFID. (The range was about
1-2 inches.) It required a bit of a setup which made it hard to replicate at
scale, but it worked reasonably well.
Privacy concerns are an issue, but you'd have to be very close to the person to
sense the card (and
Agreed. One minor downside was needing an additional flight. It seems AB who
handles about a third of the traffic rather than Lufthansa that handles about
one
fifth, was not the best choice where a 6 hour layover extended an hour on the
tarmac
in a hot plane.
With any luck, the next time we
Ironically, this IETF everyone who stayed at the Intercontinental was
walking around with an RFID key in their pocket the whole meeting.
How many of us put them in faraday cages?
one. i made it a habit
I thought the experiment in Hiroshima went well
count me in the privacy concerns camp
In article m2li4ew2nk.wl%ra...@psg.com you write:
Ironically, this IETF everyone who stayed at the Intercontinental was
walking around with an RFID key in their pocket the whole meeting.
How many of us put them in faraday cages?
one. i made it a habit
Two. I have a wallet with a built-in
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