From: Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net
Sent: Sep 29, 2014 3:01 PM
To: Sharon Levy sle...@pipeline.com
Cc: Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com, Derick Rethans der...@php.net, Andrea
Faulds a...@ajf.me, PHP internals internals@lists.php.net
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Sharon Levy iam4webw...@hotmail.com wrote:
From: Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net
Sent: Sep 29, 2014 3:01 PM
To: Sharon Levy sle...@pipeline.com
Cc: Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com, Derick Rethans der...@php.net, Andrea
Faulds a...@ajf.me, PHP internals
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:59 PM, Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 10:31 PM, Sharon Levy iam4webw...@hotmail.com
wrote:
From: Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net
Sent: Sep 29, 2014 3:01 PM
To: Sharon Levy sle...@pipeline.com
Cc: Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com,
On 30 September 2014 20:31, Sharon Levy iam4webw...@hotmail.com wrote:
If more users were educated about PHP's internals, then there could be more
substantive discussions between Userland and core contributors, including
better ideas originating from Userland. More users might even consider
2014-09-30 21:59 GMT+02:00 Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net:
Well, let's see ... what is the current status quo?
Currently, all voters have VCS accounts, meaning that they already are
at least one of:
a) C code contributors
b) documentation contributors
c) contributing to the php.net
On 30 September 2014 23:05, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net wrote:
And anyone with a wiki account can vote too, meaning everyone who
wrote an RFC can in theory vote on anything, take for example fabpot,
who does not have an VCS account but can vote still because he have a
wiki account,
On Wed, Oct 1, 2014 at 1:17 AM, Leigh lei...@gmail.com wrote:
On 30 September 2014 23:05, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net wrote:
And anyone with a wiki account can vote too, meaning everyone who
wrote an RFC can in theory vote on anything, take for example fabpot,
who does not have an VCS
Last, the 2nd sub-bullet of the 2nd bullet (regular participant of
internals discussions) is especially problematic - as it basically pulls
the barrier to entry to nothing, and is the opposite of well-defined.
When
we revise the Voting RFC, it should go IMHO. Talk is cheap - the way to
get
a
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sharon Levy sle...@pipeline.com wrote:
...
I think in all fairness, users should be required to learn C and pass a test
demonstrating basic knowledge of PHP's internals in order to acquire voting
privileges.
So, in order to vote, users should become
On Mon, Sep 29, 2014 at 3:01 PM, Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net wrote:
On Tue, Sep 30, 2014 at 12:28 AM, Sharon Levy sle...@pipeline.com wrote:
...
I think in all fairness, users should be required to learn C and pass a
test
demonstrating basic knowledge of PHP's internals in order
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:21 AM, Johannes Schlüter
johan...@schlueters.de wrote:
The approach I have in mind is going back to a consensus model by
default, allowing truly everybody to participate and giving the
opportunity to call for a vote if consensus can't be reached.
It never worked in
On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly
states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code contributions
to PHP are mandatory. We should probably consider revising that to also
account for people
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Florian Anderiasch m...@anderiasch.de wrote:
On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly
states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code contributions
to PHP are mandatory.
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Florian Anderiasch m...@anderiasch.de
wrote:
On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly
states that having an SVN account isn't enough - but that code
contributions
to PHP are
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Florian Anderiasch m...@anderiasch.de
wrote:
On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
The first bullet is the one this thread deals with so far. It clearly
states that having an SVN
That's a horrible idea. From a very quick unscientific glance at
https://github.com/php/php-src/graphs/contributors there's only ~50
people *ever* to have more than 20 commits in php-src.
I believe this may be partially due to the fact that github will only show
contributors to the default
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 3:27 PM, Andrey Andreev n...@devilix.net wrote:
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:13 PM, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 10:27 AM, Florian Anderiasch m...@anderiasch.de
wrote:
On 09/22/2014 08:56 PM, Zeev Suraski wrote:
The first bullet is
one of your pr's did not keep the author info, it seems as it was squashed
into a single commit:
http://git.php.net/?p=php-src.git;a=commit;h=ec2fff80e768dfb04aa393c06a2b1a42a9e871ff
so it isn't a problem with the list, but how your PR was merged.
ofc. probably there are other similar
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 4:47 PM, Robert Stoll p...@tutteli.ch wrote:
one of your pr's did not keep the author info, it seems as it was
squashed into a single commit:
http://git.php.net/?p=php-src.git;a=commit;h=ec2fff80e768dfb04aa393c06a2b1a42a9e871ff
so it isn't a problem with the list,
I do not think it makes sense to take the number of commits as metric.
People's commit behaviour is different. Some commit only once after
everything is done and others commit regularly after each achieved
small step towards the goal.
I belong rather to the second group. Why should I
On Tue, Sep 23, 2014 at 5:35 PM, Robert Stoll p...@tutteli.ch wrote:
I do not think it makes sense to take the number of commits as metric.
People's commit behaviour is different. Some commit only once after
everything is done and others commit regularly after each achieved
small
-Original Message-
From: Robert Stoll [mailto:p...@tutteli.ch]
Sent: Tuesday, September 23, 2014 5:48 PM
To: 'Ferenc Kovacs'; 'Andrey Andreev'
Cc: 'Florian Anderiasch'; 'Zeev Suraski'; 'Derick Rethans'; 'Andrea
Faulds'; 'PHP
internals'
Subject: AW: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people
On Sep 23, 2014 8:17 PM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
I'd welcome better suggestions if anybody has any. I think the complete
lack of metrics and exceptionally low barrier to voting is a much bigger
problem.
Please point me at a vote where the author is not part of what you defined
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it
is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to
the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the
ability to vote on RFCs?
I’d never
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Johannes Schlüter wrote:
On Sat, 2014-09-20 at 03:16 +0100, Leigh wrote:
I think everyone with the ability to vote should have to communicate
their reasons behind their yes/no publicly on this mailing list for
it to be valid. If you cannot describe in your own
On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it
is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to
the documentation, extensions, php-src or
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it
is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e.
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it
is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Andrey Andreev wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if
On Sep 22, 2014 3:29 PM, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote:
On Mon, 22 Sep 2014, Andrey Andreev wrote:
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 3:10 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
On 22 Sep 2014, at 12:32, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
IMHO, denying non-karma people to vote is like to making PHP a company's
product, or, in another words, you use what we built and shut up, because
only listening people won't allow to accept/deny a particular RFC, only
votes do. People surely don't comment (myself included) why they are
choosing
On September 22, 2014 4:21:29 PM CEST, Rafael Kassner kass...@php.net wrote:
IMHO, denying non-karma people to vote is like to making PHP a
company's
product, or, in another words, you use what we built and shut up,
because
only listening people won't allow to accept/deny a particular RFC, only
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 5:38 PM, Johannes Schlüter
johan...@schlueters.de wrote:
Slightly provocative: Why should I be forced to maintain code by people who
don't want to maintain it themselves? Probably even due to votes by people
about whom I don't know anything? Mind that most maintenance
On 9/20/14, 0:11 , Sara Golemon wrote:
On Sep 19, 2014, at 18:29, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things,
Yes, you are.
but I wonder if it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not
contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src
-Original Message-
From: Derick Rethans [mailto:der...@php.net]
Sent: Monday, September 22, 2014 2:33 PM
To: Andrea Faulds
Cc: PHP internals
Subject: Re: [PHP-DEV] Is it fair that people with no karma can vote on
RFCs?
I think people's votes should only count if they have karma to
On Sep 22, 2014 8:56 PM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
Last, the 2nd sub-bullet of the 2nd bullet (regular participant of
internals discussions) is especially problematic - as it basically pulls
the barrier to entry to nothing, and is the opposite of well-defined.
When
we revise the
On Sep 22, 2014 8:56 PM, Zeev Suraski z...@zend.com wrote:
account for people contributing docs and other types of submissions. I'd
also consider adding a requirement for contributing at least X commits
(say
20 or 50) so that someone who did a one-off or two-off patch won't have
the
same
On 22 September 2014 04:32, Derick Rethans der...@php.net wrote:
On Sat, 20 Sep 2014, Andrea Faulds wrote:
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it
is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to
the documentation, extensions, php-src or
On Sep 22, 2014 8:39 AM, Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de wrote:
On September 22, 2014 4:21:29 PM CEST, Rafael Kassner kass...@php.net
wrote:
IMHO, denying non-karma people to vote is like to making PHP a
company's
product, or, in another words, you use what we built and shut up,
Hi,
On Mon, 2014-09-22 at 14:36 -0700, Kris Craig wrote:
Slightly provocative: Why should I be forced to maintain code by
people who
don't want to maintain it themselves?
Nobody is forcing you to do anything. You choose to contribute to PHP
in the manner in which you do, just as other
On Mon, Sep 22, 2014 at 7:21 PM, Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de
wrote:
Hi,
On Mon, 2014-09-22 at 14:36 -0700, Kris Craig wrote:
Slightly provocative: Why should I be forced to maintain code by
people who
don't want to maintain it themselves?
Nobody is forcing you to do
On 20/09/14 02:29, Andrea Faulds wrote:
I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t vote. I think doc and
peck contributors are as valued as any other contributors. However, people
with no karma whatsoever (a blank people.php.net page) voting irks me.
Thoughts?
OK ... I am
On 20/09/2014 10:17, Lester Caine wrote:
That most of my spare time is still being taken up
living with the consequences of changes in PHP is water under the bridge
now [...] PLEASE can we get
back to a level playing field and use PHP7 as a base to get something
stable and fully compatible with
On 20 Sep 2014, at 06:06, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote:
I am not sure what brings you here but the idea of community votes was one
of the top thing when we introduced the voting RFC.
I should've made clear I'm not opposed to community reps voting either. People
who have made
On Sep 20, 2014 7:07 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
On 20 Sep 2014, at 06:06, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote:
I am not sure what brings you here but the idea of community votes was
one
of the top thing when we introduced the voting RFC.
I should've made clear I'm not
2014.09.20. 14:14 ezt írta (Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com):
On Sep 20, 2014 7:07 PM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
On 20 Sep 2014, at 06:06, Pierre Joye pierre@gmail.com wrote:
I am not sure what brings you here but the idea of community votes was
one
of the top thing
On 20 Sep 2014, at 13:54, Ferenc Kovacs tyr...@gmail.com wrote:
Afair the voting rfc required previous contribution not just an existing
php.net account, but as I mentioned there are a bunch of ways to contribute
other than having commits in one of the repos so there is no easy way to
On Sat, 2014-09-20 at 03:16 +0100, Leigh wrote:
I think everyone with the ability to vote should have to communicate
their reasons behind their yes/no publicly on this mailing list for it
to be valid. If you cannot describe in your own words why a proposal
should or should not be accepted,
On 20 September 2014 15:37, Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de wrote:
It is unclear what a no means. Might be a related to the patch the
design, a misunderstanding or due to a critical issue ... in the end a
vote creates losers with little feedback.
But well, I'm saying this from day
On 20 September 2014 15:49, Leigh lei...@gmail.com wrote:
On 20 September 2014 15:37, Johannes Schlüter johan...@schlueters.de
wrote:
It is unclear what a no means. Might be a related to the patch the
design, a misunderstanding or due to a critical issue ... in the end a
vote creates
Hi!
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is really
fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the documentation,
extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to vote on RFCs?
I’d never suggest people without internals karma can’t
On 20 September 2014 02:29, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
Hi!
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is
really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the
documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to
vote
2014-09-20 3:29 GMT+02:00 Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me:
Hi!
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is
really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the
documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to
vote on RFCs?
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net wrote:
2014-09-20 3:29 GMT+02:00 Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me:
Hi!
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is
really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the
Hi Kris
2014-09-20 4:32 GMT+02:00 Kris Craig kris.cr...@gmail.com:
The one problem with this is it doesn't take into account those who
contribute to PHP in other ways, such as administering tests, contributing
RFCs, etc. I'm not necessarily against this, but if you want to garner wide
enough
On Sep 19, 2014, at 21:32, Kris Craig kris.cr...@gmail.com wrote:
On Fri, Sep 19, 2014 at 7:25 PM, Kalle Sommer Nielsen ka...@php.net wrote:
2014-09-20 3:29 GMT+02:00 Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me:
Hi!
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is
really fair for
Hi,
On Sep 20, 2014 8:29 AM, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
Hi!
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things, but I wonder if it is
really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not contributors to the
documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to have the ability to
vote on
On Sep 19, 2014, at 18:29, Andrea Faulds a...@ajf.me wrote:
Perhaps I’m being unfair and overthinking things,
Yes, you are.
but I wonder if it is really fair for people who have no karma, i.e. not
contributors to the documentation, extensions, php-src or anything else, to
have the ability
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