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Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

Hello, On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 at 16:17, Chase Peeler wrote: > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:35 AM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:17 PM Brent wrote: > > > > > I asked similar questions on Twitter, where Zeev replied the following: > > >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On 8/8/2019 3:26 AM, Côme Chilliet wrote: Le mercredi 7 août 2019, 15:57:02 CEST Chase Peeler a écrit : Pretty much everyone (if not actually everyone) that is against this RFC has stated that they don't actually use short tags, and do not advocate that anyone else use them either. This is

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

чт, 8 авг. 2019 г. в 17:56, Robert Korulczyk : > > Many people have talked about the potential impacts of keeping short > tags. > > I have yet to see anyone give an actual example where they have been > > negatively impacted by their existence. I've given you my personal story > of > > how

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 at 16:18, Arvids Godjuks wrote: > BC is great, but you need to pull the cord at some point. And the whole > short tag back and forth, with deprecation warning and stuff, has been > around for last half a decade. It is time to accept that it needs to go > That's like saying

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:18 AM Arvids Godjuks wrote: > чт, 8 авг. 2019 г. в 16:42, Peter Kokot : > >> Hello, >> Thanks for sharing your stories about issues. Maybe we should start >> also thinking about the impact on the language attractiveness to pick >> it when starting a new web project

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

> I'd say this is not really a language concern and more tooling and testing > problem. It's a class of a genuine mistake everybody does from time to time > - be it wrong PHP tag, HTML tag or closing } added on the wrong line > resulting in a logical error. This is a direct consequence of the

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 10:42 AM Peter Kokot wrote: > Hello, > > On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 at 16:17, Chase Peeler wrote: > > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:35 AM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:17 PM Brent wrote: > > > > > > > I asked similar questions on Twitter, where Zeev

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

чт, 8 авг. 2019 г. в 17:57, Peter Bowyer : > > > On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 at 16:18, Arvids Godjuks > wrote: > >> I really liked how language picked up the cleanup pace in the last few >> years and it needs it. I finally see genuine interest in people to >> actually >> either come back or pick it up

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:10 PM Bishop Bettini wrote: > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 7:34 AM G. P. B. wrote: > > > The voting for the "Deprecate short open tags, again" [1] RFC has begun. > > It is expected to last two (2) weeks until 2019-08-20. > > > > A counter argument to this RFC is available at

Re: [PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 10:17 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > [... and not in the Sith Lord kind of way.] > > Looking at some of the recent (& not so recent) discussions on internals@, > some of the recent proposals, as well as some of the statements made > regarding the future direction of the language

[PHP-DEV] Re: Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

On 08/08/2019 21:17, Zeev Suraski wrote: [... and not in the Sith Lord kind of way.] Thoughts? I'm going to speak strictly as a userland PHP developer, for that is what I am. The idea of PHP being held hostage to eternal backwards compatibility fills me with absolute dread. I've built

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 10:35 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:10 PM Bishop Bettini wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 7:34 AM G. P. B. wrote: >> >> > The voting for the "Deprecate short open tags, again" [1] RFC has begun. >> > It is expected to last two (2) weeks until

Re: [PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:02 AM Nikita Popov wrote: > This is basically what I have been advocating for a while now already, > somewhat hidden between all the other noise of the "namespace-scoped > declares" thread. The model I would like to follow are Rust editions ( >

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 7:34 AM G. P. B. wrote: > The voting for the "Deprecate short open tags, again" [1] RFC has begun. > It is expected to last two (2) weeks until 2019-08-20. > > A counter argument to this RFC is available at >

[PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

[... and not in the Sith Lord kind of way.] Looking at some of the recent (& not so recent) discussions on internals@, some of the recent proposals, as well as some of the statements made regarding the future direction of the language - makes it fairly clear that we have a growing sense of

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:10 PM Bishop Bettini wrote: > > > On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 7:34 AM G. P. B. > wrote: > > > > > The voting for the "Deprecate short open tags, again" [1] RFC has > begun. > > > It is expected to last two (2) weeks until

Re: [PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:02 PM Nikita Popov wrote: > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 10:17 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > >> [... and not in the Sith Lord kind of way.] >> >> Looking at some of the recent (& not so recent) discussions on internals@ >> , >> some of the recent proposals, as well as some of the

Re: [PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 12:22 AM Nikita Popov wrote: > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:02 PM Nikita Popov wrote: > >> On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 10:17 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: >> >> This is basically what I have been advocating for a while now already, >> somewhat hidden between all the other noise of the

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

чт, 8 авг. 2019 г. в 16:42, Peter Kokot : > Hello, > Thanks for sharing your stories about issues. Maybe we should start > also thinking about the impact on the language attractiveness to pick > it when starting a new web project since the core people can't come to > conclusions how to make the

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

> Many people have talked about the potential impacts of keeping short tags. > I have yet to see anyone give an actual example where they have been > negatively impacted by their existence. I've given you my personal story of > how removing them will negatively impact my company. I welcome anyone

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

чт, 8 авг. 2019 г. в 17:42, Chase Peeler : > > > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 11:18 AM Arvids Godjuks > wrote: > >> чт, 8 авг. 2019 г. в 16:42, Peter Kokot : >> >>> Hello, >>> Thanks for sharing your stories about issues. Maybe we should start >>> also thinking about the impact on the language

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

> ... > 3. Putting your apparent personal bias against backwards compatibility > aside - if P++ goes in the directions you're hoping for - towards giving > you the goodies on your wish list, why would you care if PHP still existed > without these new changes/features? > > Zeev I just want to

RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

> -Original Message- > From: Bishop Bettini [mailto:bis...@php.net] > > That's why I highlighted Robert Korulczyk's case study: only a particular > code path in a particular environment had the problem. > > The status quo enables deployments to fail insecurely. "secret"; is a trap

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

> > I'm going to speak strictly as a userland PHP developer, for that is > what I am. > The idea of PHP being held hostage to eternal backwards compatibility > fills me with absolute dread. > (...) > I can deal with short term pain for long term gain. > What I would struggle to deal with is

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

On Fri, Aug 9, 2019 at 1:25 AM Mark Randall wrote: > On 08/08/2019 21:17, Zeev Suraski wrote: > > [... and not in the Sith Lord kind of way.] > > Thoughts? > > The idea of PHP being held hostage to eternal backwards compatibility > fills me with absolute dread. > [snip] > If you're not going

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

On Thu, 8 Aug 2019 at 19:08, Zeev Suraski wrote: > 3. Putting your apparent personal bias against backwards compatibility > aside - if P++ goes in the directions you're hoping for - towards giving > you the goodies on your wish list, why would you care if PHP still existed > without these new

Re: [PHP-DEV] Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

Hi Zeev Happy to see this proposal pop up, it's good to know that the "other side" is also open for long-term solutions. I think there needs to be a thorough analysis about the pros and cons of the two paths to take: a sister language vs. Nikita's proposal. To me, a userland developer, both

Re: [PHP-DEV] Re: Bringing Peace to the Galaxy

On 09/08/2019 00:08, Zeev Suraski wrote: 2. Different people have different preferences. There's a reason that not everyone is using the same language, or have the same mobile phone or the same car. Something it's not 'forward' or 'backwards' - it's about 'different'. Is C++ better than C?

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:35 PM Zeev Suraski wrote: > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:10 PM Bishop Bettini wrote: > >> On Tue, Aug 6, 2019 at 7:34 AM G. P. B. wrote: >> >> > The voting for the "Deprecate short open tags, again" [1] RFC has begun. >> > It is expected to last two (2) weeks until

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Wed, 7 Aug 2019 at 20:45, Sergey Panteleev wrote: > Hi there! > > Perhaps I missed and someone already suggested, > but didn't consider a compromise option: > just change the default value short_open_tag=false, > and DON'T removes the option from php.ini? > > If someone uses short tags - ok,

RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

> -Original Message- > From: Brent [mailto:bre...@stitcher.io] > > > It feels like much of the counter arguments are based on guesses without any > real data to point to. It goes both ways - the argument for removal states "This means that their use is not possible in portable code,

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 9:35 AM Zeev Suraski wrote: > On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:17 PM Brent wrote: > > > I asked similar questions on Twitter, where Zeev replied the following: > > https://mobile.twitter.com/zeevs/status/115865658046464 > > > I want to add a bit of color to this tweet: > -

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On 8 August 2019 13:16:56 BST, Brent wrote: >I asked similar questions on Twitter, where Zeev replied the >following: > >> With an estimated number of PHP developers >> at 10M, 1% is 100K. Whether I know this for >> sure is not at all the point - it's never how we >> take decisions. The question

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

I asked similar questions on Twitter, where Zeev replied the following:  https://mobile.twitter.com/zeevs/status/115865658046464 It feels like much of the counter arguments are based on guesses without any real data to point to. On the other hand it's unfair to dismiss the counter arguments

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

On Thu, Aug 8, 2019 at 3:17 PM Brent wrote: > I asked similar questions on Twitter, where Zeev replied the following: > https://mobile.twitter.com/zeevs/status/115865658046464 I want to add a bit of color to this tweet: - Estimated # of developers using PHP is at around 10M. This is based

Re: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

Le mercredi 7 août 2019, 15:57:02 CEST Chase Peeler a écrit : > Pretty much everyone (if not actually > everyone) that is against this RFC has stated that they don't actually use > short tags, and do not advocate that anyone else use them either. This is what bugs me, the counter argument page

RE: [PHP-DEV] [RFC] [VOTE] Deprecate PHP's short open tags, again

> -Original Message- > From: Côme Chilliet [mailto:c...@opensides.be] > > This is what bugs me, the counter argument page from Zeev states «I never > use short tags in any PHP code that I write, and as far as I recall - I never > have. », and at the same time «put hundreds of thousands of