Re: Name of the fork / Voting
M Rawash is right, developers / users of this new fork should pick this discussion up again once it exists. for now notion is the name of this fork, we will have more time to decide on a better name later, but right now we're moving on... new mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=314802 please subscribe. Need to understand if most people will subscribe to the list then the community will be agree in integral with this name, due to natural inertia of group of people. more people have subscribed to the list than have posted here so far. And.. who made you chief? nobody, hence: https://sourceforge.net/mailarchive/forum.php?thread_name=1270776985.4591.143.camel%40localhostforum_name=notion-devel regards, M Rawash NotionWM, NucleusWM, some pretty good suggestions. Hi all, sorry for being late for the vote, I'd vote for nion and notion. With an existing Notion software, there's a small chance in having problems and a big chance not being googlable, and THAT is a bigger problem IMNSHO, just as panman wrote. We can probably solve it by using the name NotionWM instead of just Notion. I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM? TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.) If we're going to find new names, I'm no better, but the Wikipedia ion page is great for finding metaphors: * Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff Competing on Google is the concept plane. * NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM, but there are many other uses for this word, even in software. * Faraday - he discovered and named the ions. There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^ * Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :) Just my 2 cents, I've been using ion for a long time, I've searched for all sorts of things related to ion. ion+window+manager is, as I say, useful to find formal ion documentation, or the website, etc. It is not useful for searching for informal posts or blogs. People aren't generally that specific. How did you searched for original ion(1)? I did it by: ion window manager and got expected result. Or more often I put into google: ion window manager documentation Did you ever tried to search the word ion, or ion howto? And my vote: lion +1 - Lithium Ion, is third element in periodic table and the fork will be ion3plus based. ᚅ(nion) +1 On Thu, 08 Apr 2010 21:30:24 +0200 M Rawash mraw...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 09:22 -0700, panman wrote: The way I wrote that was a little confusing. My meaning was (if I can do better this time) a search for debian+howto+notion will include any howto's for debian where someone had a notion since it's a common english word. Doing a search for various terms+notion generally finds hits from the presence of a sentence in the page about the notion of something or other. You're absolutely right, a legitimate page about a project called notion should rise above that sort of thing. I was not however really thinking of the legitimate site for the project. Consider a search for statusbar+notion, lua+notion, maximized+notion, keybindings+notion. The point is notion doesn't do a very good job of focusing the hits in on this project. A post someone makes on their blog regarding their experiences with notion containing the exact solution some future user is looking for could be very difficult to find. I found this to be the case with the name ion, without the '3' it's a very bad filter, and since people often drop the '3' in discussions about it, with the 3 it's a very bad filter. hmmm, we really should contact the awesome guys and ask them how they do it...
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
2010/4/8 Evgeny Kurbatov evgenykurba...@yandex.ru: As for the assumption not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO, see other projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute to the project. Instead they guide it. Actually it does not matter who the leader is if we choose well appointed strategy for the project. Tuomo can say No Xinerama and EWMH, I say Yes EWMH and Xinerama doesn't matter to me, and somebody can say Xinerama is important but I don't care about EWMH and so on. Let's discuss what will we do, then we choose the messiah. +1 -- Regards, Groleo!
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 12:46 +0300, Harri Haataja wrote: 2010/4/8 Evgeny Kurbatov evgenykurba...@yandex.ru: As for the assumption not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO, see other projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute to the project. Instead they guide it. Actually it does not matter who the leader is if we choose well appointed strategy for the project. Possibly, but it might be worth considering choosing another benevolent dictator and letting them have the final say on design matters on the fork. If only to avoid design by comittee. We can't do anything to avoid this, except making leader post elective.
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 10:33 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote: well, unless tuomo wears a red coat and lives in the north pole, i don't Well he lives pretty close to it and maybe he has a red coat around, not plastic ofc. see this as a good/fair management model, keeping the Ion(tm) name is not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO Calm down now :). All the suppositions/proposals I made were made to favor good directions from Tuomo as we saw he's still around. Tearing apart what Tuomo did in years might not be all that good for future. i think we all made it clear that we appreciate Tuomo's work on Ion, but he moved on, and so should we... As for the assumption not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO, see other projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute to the project. Instead they guide it. That wasn't the point, my objection is not that the lead developer won't be doing any development, rather that it'll be Tuomo (s/non-developer/self-appointed-benevolent-dictator-for-life/) cheers, M Rawash
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 12:39 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote: 2010/4/8 Evgeny Kurbatov evgenykurba...@yandex.ru: As for the assumption not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO, see other projects such as Vim, or crappy Linux, where the leaders barely contribute to the project. Instead they guide it. Actually it does not matter who the leader is if we choose well appointed strategy for the project. Tuomo can say No Xinerama and EWMH, I say Yes EWMH and Xinerama doesn't matter to me, and somebody can say Xinerama is important but I don't care about EWMH and so on. Let's discuss what will we do, then we choose the messiah. +1 +1
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
I'd like to suggest that it would be preferable if the word chosen for the new name be easily searchable. That is to say, someone doing a search for notion howto or neon howto are going to get all kinds of bad results. Le 07/04/2010 à 20:17:20+0200, M Rawash a écrit On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 18:21 +0200, Alexander Rink wrote: It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an official voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given? thanks for starting this, notion has got a serious challenger now, cation (i don't get it!), so i agree, it's time to put it to a vote; mine goes to notion so: +1 for notion +1 and just for reference, here are all the current contenders: - notion - cation - nion - neon - ion-ng - particleman JPO for ION + one letter (I- J, O- P, N- O) like VMS -- WNT ;-) Regards. JAS
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
On 08.04.10 11:21, Marc Hartstein wrote: Excerpts from panman's message of Thu Apr 08 10:25:25 -0400 2010: I'd like to suggest that it would be preferable if the word chosen for the new name be easily searchable. That is to say, someone doing a search for notion howto or neon howto are going to get all kinds of bad results. This is a good point, but looking around, I'm not so worried about it: What about wrtzlpfrpft? There are no hits yet on google! It uses no letter, ion uses and it has no vowels, which is a definite point for not Finnish. - Klaus google: notion howto about 65,100 results google: neon howto about 170,000 results The notion hits don't look like they make a lot of sense; I suspect real HOWTOs regarding a window manager named notion would sort quickly to the top of the list. The neon hits include a hit about the neon library on the first page. Unlike the commercial software named notion, which is unlikely to cause a lot of confusion, neon is a library which is likely to be on many users' systems [I have it as a dependency of openoffice and subversion for some reason I'd prefer not to theorize about]. ++notion --
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
The way I wrote that was a little confusing. My meaning was (if I can do better this time) a search for debian+howto+notion will include any howto's for debian where someone had a notion since it's a common english word. Doing a search for various terms+notion generally finds hits from the presence of a sentence in the page about the notion of something or other. You're absolutely right, a legitimate page about a project called notion should rise above that sort of thing. I was not however really thinking of the legitimate site for the project. Consider a search for statusbar+notion, lua+notion, maximized+notion, keybindings+notion. The point is notion doesn't do a very good job of focusing the hits in on this project. A post someone makes on their blog regarding their experiences with notion containing the exact solution some future user is looking for could be very difficult to find. I found this to be the case with the name ion, without the '3' it's a very bad filter, and since people often drop the '3' in discussions about it, with the 3 it's a very bad filter. Excerpts from panman's message of Thu Apr 08 10:25:25 -0400 2010: I'd like to suggest that it would be preferable if the word chosen for the new name be easily searchable. That is to say, someone doing a search for notion howto or neon howto are going to get all kinds of bad results. This is a good point, but looking around, I'm not so worried about it: google: notion howto about 65,100 results google: neon howto about 170,000 results The notion hits don't look like they make a lot of sense; I suspect real HOWTOs regarding a window manager named notion would sort quickly to the top of the list. The neon hits include a hit about the neon library on the first page. Unlike the commercial software named notion, which is unlikely to cause a lot of confusion, neon is a library which is likely to be on many users' systems [I have it as a dependency of openoffice and subversion for some reason I'd prefer not to theorize about]. ++notion
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
Hi all, sorry for being late for the vote, I'd vote for nion and notion. With an existing Notion software, there's a small chance in having problems and a big chance not being googlable, and THAT is a bigger problem IMNSHO, just as panman wrote. We can probably solve it by using the name NotionWM instead of just Notion. I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM? TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.) If we're going to find new names, I'm no better, but the Wikipedia ion page is great for finding metaphors: * Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff Competing on Google is the concept plane. * NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM, but there are many other uses for this word, even in software. * Faraday - he discovered and named the ions. There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^ * Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :) Just my 2 cents, -- Sylvain Abélard J’ai décidé d’être heureux, c’est meilleur pour la santé. -Voltaire
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
On Thu, 2010-04-08 at 22:36 +0200, Sylvain Abélard wrote: Hi all, sorry for being late for the vote, I'd vote for nion and notion. With an existing Notion software, there's a small chance in having problems and a big chance not being googlable, and THAT is a bigger problem IMNSHO, just as panman wrote. We can probably solve it by using the name NotionWM instead of just Notion. I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM? TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.) If we're going to find new names, I'm no better, but the Wikipedia ion page is great for finding metaphors: * Aurora - sounds like a new, beautiful and exciting stuff Competing on Google is the concept plane. * NucleusWM - sounds nice and would carry the idea of a small WM, but there are many other uses for this word, even in software. * Faraday - he discovered and named the ions. There are a lot of fun metaphors we can find ^^ * Polyatomic - well, that's geeky :) Just my 2 cents, for now notion is the name of this fork, we will have more time to decide on a better name later, but right now we're moving on... new mailing lists: https://sourceforge.net/mail/?group_id=314802 please subscribe. M Rawash
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
Seems like voting has started :) nion +1 Project Leader : Timandahaf +1 Chief Developer: M Rawash +1, Ole Jørgen Brønner +1 On Wed, 7 Apr 2010 13:23:21 -0300 Eider Oliveira eider.olive...@gmail.com wrote: cation +1 anion -1 notion 0 Timandahaf +1 M Rawash +1 Eider Oliveira Site: http://www.eider.blog.br Flickr: http://www.flickr.com/photos/eider/ On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 1:21 PM, Alexander Rink a.r...@gmx.net wrote: It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an official voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given? Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next will be choosing a project leader (i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be done in another thread... -- Alexander Rink a.r...@gmx.net n -- Alexander Rink a.r...@gmx.net
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
ion-ng, that's all the rage (ng could mean anything really, e.g. Next Generation, Now Good, Nude Girls, Not Grumpy) On Wed, Apr 7, 2010 at 11:21 AM, Alexander Rink a.r...@gmx.net wrote: It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an official voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given? Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next will be choosing a project leader (i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be done in another thread... -- Alexander Rink a.r...@gmx.net n -- _ (\o/) Chad 'v3rt1g0' Kittel chad.kit...@gmail.com /_\ Beaver Dam, WI (USA) [4 8 15 16 23 42] This is who we are. // http://twitter.com/ckittel
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an official voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given? Hope that we get the ball rolling after this decision has been made...next will be choosing a project leader (i would vote for Timandahaf) / chief developer (I would vote for M Rawash here), but this should be done in another thread... -- Alexander Rink a.r...@gmx.net n From a trademark POV, all the suggested names suffer from the major problem of incorporating the trademark in the name. (see AOL v GAIM) I know in this situation it is relatively safe to assume the trademark holder isn't hostile, but I would still think it would be very desirable to have a name that doesn't technically infringe the trademark. Unfortunately I don't have much in the way of alternatives to offer, I'm not particularly good with coming up with names. ThinWM? TinyParticle? TilingMadeSimple? Quirk? (Told you I was terrible.) Tumov, I just wanted to express my heartfelt thanks for creating ion3 and making it available. I've been an ion3 user for 3 years now, and I don't plan on stopping anyttime soon.
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
+1 for notion and +2 for fossvm ;) --- Henri Salo
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
Alexander Rink wrote: [Wed Apr 07 2010, 12:21:01PM EDT] It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an official voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given? notion +1
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
Le 07/04/2010 à 20:17:20+0200, M Rawash a écrit On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 18:21 +0200, Alexander Rink wrote: It seems that most of the recent participants of this mailing list prefer notion as the name for the forking project. But there were other proposals like cation or nion. Should we do an official voting (maybe by just by replying to this email with +1 for this or for that) or is the name notion now considered a given? thanks for starting this, notion has got a serious challenger now, cation (i don't get it!), so i agree, it's time to put it to a vote; mine goes to notion so: +1 for notion +1 and just for reference, here are all the current contenders: - notion - cation - nion - neon - ion-ng - particleman JPO for ION + one letter (I- J, O- P, N- O) like VMS -- WNT ;-) Regards. JAS -- Albert SHIH SIO batiment 15 Observatoire de Paris Meudon 5 Place Jules Janssen 92195 Meudon Cedex Téléphone : 01 45 07 76 26/06 86 69 95 71 Heure local/Local time: Mer 7 avr 2010 23:40:03 CEST
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
On Wed, 2010-04-07 at 22:46 +0300, Groleo Marius wrote: Hi, what's wrong with ion3plus ? I think Tuomo made it clear in an older mail (see[1] ) how things should be carried on. If I got it wrong I stand corrected. These guidelines are there to keep the project true to the name Ion, and therefore include [...] * A veto for me for major changes that do not simply enhance existing features. XFascistType and Shitorama have snowball's chance in hell of getting into Ion. Ion runs on pure X11, not fugly complex extensions. [...] As for development after Ion3plus, which shouldn't _fundamentally_ stray too far from Ion3, I have some new ideas to try for Ion4, that I'd still like to see implemented. I just doubt I'm going to do it myself... [...] I would also require at that point that Ion be ported to Windows and, why not, OS X at. well, unless tuomo wears a red coat and lives in the north pole, i don't see this as a good/fair management model, keeping the Ion(tm) name is not worth having Tuomo as a lead non-developer...IMO IMO, having new random features in, does not mean immediate success. See the failure of wmii which every time I gave it a shot it blew out on me. we agreed to leave the development discussion for a later session, i don't think we ought to be making any assumptions at this point. I guess porting(see [1]) would require the least effort from developers getting in touch with ion3 code porting or not, 'someone' will have to do it... (and maybe easier to get Tuomo to try it :D) rght... xD M Rawash
Re: Name of the fork / Voting
On Wed, 7 Apr 2010, kevin granade wrote: From a trademark POV, all the suggested names suffer from the major problem of incorporating the trademark in the name. (see AOL v GAIM) I know in this situation it is relatively safe to assume the trademark holder isn't hostile, but I would still think it would be very desirable to have a name that doesn't technically infringe the trademark. Good point, thanks for pointing this out. We should keep this in mind. However, I agree with your remark on the trademark holder's hostility, and also think that the substring 'ion' is the suffix of so many words in English, that unless we hyphenate it (like not-ion) or refer to ion3 (like notion3), we should be okay.
