Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-12, Alexander Shishkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: all I was saying is that the fact that you're uncomfortable with something doesn't make it suck or a fucked up mess. Statements that you make here are solely based upon your feelings and you try to use as if they were objectively correct which is often not the case. Objective correctness is fiction. All that matters is what I think. Deep inside we're all scared and lonely and offended by those FOSS developers doing what they please. So that's why you mistreat your users likewise? I'm not going to waste time serving the fancies of the FOSS herd, especially ones that I have no use for, when all it tries to do is make my life more difficult and laboursome. No, SUV the size of a high-rise building is the penis enlargement trend over here. The bicycle is a mere transportation necessity, Those penises that can't afford this type of enlargement still often have an urge to be enlarged somehow. Maybe, but it can be something as simple as a bicycle model that suits your style, and such small differences have quite insignificant environmental impact, on a vehicle that runs on your own power and demands little space. (Recumbent tricycles can demand quite a bit of space, though. It could also be argued that aluminium frames should be used less than they presently are, in favour of heavier steel frames that only tend to be used on very basic and el cheapo bicycles anymore. I'm not sure if such out-of-the-sight construction materials fall into the penis enlargement department, though.) assuming you agree that people need to move around faster and longer distances than is practical by walking -- which isn't much Is it still practical to ride a bike below -10C in winter considering wind and humidity? -10C is nothing. -20C is still quite tolerable. In -30C breathing has become quite difficult, but it's still doable. (Some cheapo components designed for warmer climates don't seem to like it much: I broke one crankarm in such temperatures just by standing on the pedal. Derailleurs also start to freeze, when you have to leave the bike outside for the day.) Walking starts to become more convenient below -20C, though, as it demands more warming motion than cycling, and has less chance of making you breathless. I'd actually like to try skiing for commuting in the winter -- it's faster than walking, and also demands more warming exercise than cycling -- but the vehicles of terror (cars) having consumed most of the space, with all the rest being squeezed on narrow gritted multi-use paths that frequently intersect the largely dry asphalted domain of these infernal machines, it's not possible. -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-13, Ben Hutchings [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Have you tried mod_xinerama? There is a Debian package (currently ion3-mod-xinerama; may need to be renamed) and it has just entered the archive. I think it (and other modules I don't care for) should somehow indicate that it will void upstream support. This could be done with names like 'mod_xinerama-for-ion3', 'ion3-support-void-mod_xinerama', etc., but an unignorable notification might also suffice. -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 5/7/07, Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Having to fix autoconf scripts is the same as having to edit sources, and worse. Having to edit a well-designed Makefile is the same as having to edit a decent (non-XML) configuration file. At least, autoconf deals with cross-compilation while most of those who think that they can write decent makefiles fail to do so. Average software package will require tweaking sources regardless of the build/configuration system it employs. It's about time we agree about what 'linux' stands for. If you prefer to regard any of those modern linux-desktop trends with the term 'linux', I'd disagree. All the distros are the same shit. Some have more WIMPshit and some less. All have the same shitty core software designed for WIMPshit idiot users and the developers (incl. distributors) themselves. Any of this fails to attract my attention in debian, for example. Except, probably the case when I discovered that ion3 no longer does xinerama due to you being somehow upset with xinerama API. Just like you rolled back to an older kernel, I had to roll back to a known-to-work snapshot of ion3. And I do not take that 'mindless consumerism' shit; I can tell what's convenient for me from 4+ years experience with dualhead setups and ion. -- I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-12, Alexander Shishkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At least, autoconf deals with cross-compilation while most of those who think that they can write decent makefiles fail to do so. If cross-compilation needs more than changing the compiler used and/or its flags, and library/include paths, that system is fucked up. (Alternatively a chroot jail should be used.) Any of this fails to attract my attention in debian, for example. Debian is a complex fucked up mess. Except, probably the case when I discovered that ion3 no longer does xinerama due to you being somehow upset with xinerama API. Not the API -- there isn't much of it; just that the whole thing is a pointless [1] exercise in mutually incompatible extensions, which combined with ICCCM incompleteness in the nested WM window department, makes it impossible to get working Right. Given this, the state of the planet, and the general distaste I have for the consumerist culture, I'm not going to waste my time supporting and helping anyone enlarging their penises with multihead configurations. I can tell what's convenient for me from 4+ years experience with dualhead setups and ion. Convenient or not, I doubt you have a justifiable (to me, not the FOSS herd and other conspicious consumers) need for a multihead setup. [1]: http://osdir.com/ml/window-managers.ion.general/2007-01/msg00032.html -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 5/12/07, Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2007-05-12, Alexander Shishkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: At least, autoconf deals with cross-compilation while most of those who think that they can write decent makefiles fail to do so. If cross-compilation needs more than changing the compiler used and/or its flags, and library/include paths, that system is fucked up. (Alternatively a chroot jail should be used.) How can you tell if malloc(0) in target's C library returns zero or behaves like glibc's, for example? What with 1500 of such little conditional settings? Defining all those in a makefile is what I prefer to call being fucked up. Does ion3 cross-compile at all, btw? Does luac produce 100% architecture-independent bytecode? Any of this fails to attract my attention in debian, for example. Debian is a complex fucked up mess. I'm not a poet, but it still sucks less. Again, the only major concerns of mine (with debian or not) is ion's breakage. You've taken to talk a lot of fud recently, btw. Except, probably the case when I discovered that ion3 no longer does xinerama due to you being somehow upset with xinerama API. Not the API -- there isn't much of it; just that the whole thing is a pointless [1] exercise in mutually incompatible extensions, which combined with ICCCM incompleteness in the nested WM window department, makes it impossible to get working Right. Given this, Oh right, now with xinerama being supported in ion for so many years, you figured out that problem. However, being a mere luser in the context of window management, I don't care since I've never hit any problem with that and now with xinerama support removed my feelings are hurt. the state of the planet, and the general distaste I have for the consumerist culture, I'm not going to waste my time supporting Now you sound like those sinister FOSS people from your previous mails and blog entries. Being asshole towards not-completely-dumb users for no apparent reason (or should I say: a problem that may arise in a galaxy far-far away is not really a convincing reason?). and helping anyone enlarging their penises with multihead configurations. Want to talk about penises? And yes, here in Russia we're totally buried in consumerism. My BMW X5, for instance, has a platinum steering wheel. Convenient or not, I doubt you have a justifiable (to me, not the FOSS herd and other conspicious consumers) need for a multihead setup. I can walk my way to New Zealand sooner than you accept the probability of the fact that you're not 100% right sometimes, let along the xinerama thing. I don't feel like wasting my breath on this any more. -- I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-12, Alexander Shishkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How can you tell if malloc(0) in target's C library returns zero or behaves like glibc's, for example? What with 1500 of such little conditional settings? Defining all those in a makefile is what I prefer to call being fucked up. Every program containing the same slow-to-run, unmaintainable and broken M4 mess to check for those 1500 such little conditions, is what I call fucked up. Autoconf is an ad hoc solution typical of the FOSS herd and its cherished worse is better fallacy, that is itself worse a problem than the original [1]. Does ion3 cross-compile at all, btw? Does luac produce 100% architecture-independent bytecode? Luac produces architecture dependent code. Debian is a complex fucked up mess. I'm not a poet, but it still sucks less. Sucking less is not good enough, when the base level is so low. Oh right, now with xinerama being supported in ion for so many years, you figured out that problem. However, being a mere luser in the context of window management, I god fed up with the lusers complaining of the problems whilst waving their enlarged penises. I don't care since I've never hit any problem with that and now with xinerama support removed my feelings are hurt. In case you haven't noticed, someone wrote a module that will VOID SUPPORT if installed. Want to talk about penises? And yes, here in Russia we're totally buried in consumerism. My BMW X5, for instance, has a platinum steering wheel. Yes, and my bicycle has diamond frame. (Seriously, it has.) [1]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2006/07/04/T21_20_46/ -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 5/13/07, Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2007-05-12, Alexander Shishkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Every program containing the same slow-to-run, unmaintainable and broken M4 mess to check for those 1500 such little conditions, is what I call fucked up. And for that reason let's have 1500 pieces of software each one with it's own private little clean and simple Makefile. Utter bullshit. Autoconf is an ad hoc solution typical of the FOSS herd and its cherished worse is better fallacy, that is itself worse a problem than the original [1]. That [1] entry is full of fud also. As for autoconf, it's a known and tolerable way to get things done IFF you know what you're doing and don't get bored in 10 minutes just because there's m4 and you can't or won't read it. Nobody really likes it and it's still there. Does ion3 cross-compile at all, btw? Does luac produce 100% architecture-independent bytecode? Luac produces architecture dependent code. So what is fucked up then? Oh right, now with xinerama being supported in ion for so many years, you figured out that problem. However, being a mere luser in the context of window management, I god fed up with the lusers complaining of the problems whilst waving their enlarged penises. How do you tell an enlarged one from a naturally big one? I don't care since I've never hit any problem with that and now with xinerama support removed my feelings are hurt. In case you haven't noticed, someone wrote a module that will VOID SUPPORT if installed. The point is that I did not have to look at how ion works for several years now and I don't even remember what a module is in this context. Now I'll have to dig this again and then install everything by hand once a month. Too complicated for a luser, now that even autoconf is carved out. Yes, and my bicycle has diamond frame. (Seriously, it has.) And owning a bike is a consumer trend there. [1]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2006/07/04/T21_20_46/ Life sucks, and then you die. (C) -- I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On Sat, 2007-05-12 at 19:36 +0400, Alexander Shishkin wrote: snip Except, probably the case when I discovered that ion3 no longer does xinerama due to you being somehow upset with xinerama API. Just like you rolled back to an older kernel, I had to roll back to a known-to-work snapshot of ion3. snip Have you tried mod_xinerama? There is a Debian package (currently ion3-mod-xinerama; may need to be renamed) and it has just entered the archive. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings Klipstein's 4th Law of Prototyping and Production: A fail-safe circuit will destroy others. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-09 13:24 +0400, Alex Tomas wrote: Tuomo Valkonen wrote: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2007/04/01/T19_09_22/ I can't build good kernel myself - they're idiots. congrats, amazing logic! You logic is even more amazing, being able to infer that from my writings. -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-06, csant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also known as ion-3rc-20070506. There seem to be no darcs changes to pull, and also the online changelog doesn't show the last changes. I'm not going to make it easy for all the forkers... -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 5/7/07, Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2007-05-06, csant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also known as ion-3rc-20070506. There seem to be no darcs changes to pull, and also the online changelog doesn't show the last changes. I'm not going to make it easy for all the forkers... Too much of a codebase to fork anyway. Better go with something lighter. :) -- I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-07 10:52 +0400, Alexander Shishkin wrote: Too much of a codebase to fork anyway. Better go with something lighter. :) You mean something not worth the distributions carrying at all, because you need to modify the source to configure it? Hmm.. that might be a way to stop them corrupting your work. Too bad such is the extreme example of the either you're one of us (developers), or an idiot user movement that the all of Linux is turning into, and which is driving me away from it. -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-07, Alexander Shishkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Oh, cut off the drama, it was you who ripped off 'autoconf shit' from
the rc, wasn't it?
Autoconf is autopain, a solution waiting for a problem... creating a
problem [1]. Clear and simple makefiles are _much_ easier to use.
Again, unless I'm very mistaken (which is fairly unlikely) it was you
who went along the lines of 'me vs {debian,gentoo,whatever} lusers'
some month ago in 'Debian sucks' thread, or was it your special way of
expressing irony towards this kind of attitude in linux?
I never said there aren't lusers and idiot users. There are, a lot
of them. More day by day, as Linux keeps becoming even sorrier
imitation of Windows, and the more of the herd finds it. It's just
that there is -- or at least used to be -- a progression of users
of different levels between them and the developers. You could be
a luser wrt. one piece of software while being the developer of
another. The trend in FOSS is either-or: the annihilation of that
progression. Ion does not even try to cater for the lusers, and
the distributions doing whatever they will with it, and still
calling it Ion, makes it even harder to help them to become not
lusers. Too much of essential FOSS core software, OTOH, these days
only tries to cater for the developers of that software, and the
lusers.
---
[1]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2006/07/04/T21_20_46/
--
Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
I'm not going to make it easy for all the forkers... How sad... /c
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 5/7/07, Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
On 2007-05-07, Alexander Shishkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Oh, cut off the drama, it was you who ripped off 'autoconf shit' from
the rc, wasn't it?
Autoconf is autopain, a solution waiting for a problem... creating a
problem [1]. Clear and simple makefiles are _much_ easier to use.
Errm, isn't that the same as having to edit sources to configure a program?
Again, unless I'm very mistaken (which is fairly unlikely) it was you
who went along the lines of 'me vs {debian,gentoo,whatever} lusers'
some month ago in 'Debian sucks' thread, or was it your special way of
expressing irony towards this kind of attitude in linux?
I never said there aren't lusers and idiot users. There are, a lot
of them. More day by day, as Linux keeps becoming even sorrier
imitation of Windows, and the more of the herd finds it. It's just
It's about time we agree about what 'linux' stands for. If you prefer
to regard any of those modern linux-desktop trends with the term
'linux', I'd disagree.
that there is -- or at least used to be -- a progression of users
of different levels between them and the developers. You could be
a luser wrt. one piece of software while being the developer of
another. The trend in FOSS is either-or: the annihilation of that
progression.
I may be missing something, but what makes you think so?
Ion does not even try to cater for the lusers, and
the distributions doing whatever they will with it, and still
calling it Ion, makes it even harder to help them to become not
lusers.
My impression is that, these days there is much less stupid questions
on this list than there were three years ago, which makes me think
that users tend to become less of lusers, no?
Too much of essential FOSS core software, OTOH, these days
only tries to cater for the developers of that software, and the
lusers.
Can you please be more specific on this point?
--
I like long walks, especially when they are taken by people who annoy me.
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-07, Alexander Shishkin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Autoconf is autopain, a solution waiting for a problem... creating a problem [1]. Clear and simple makefiles are _much_ easier to use. Errm, isn't that the same as having to edit sources to configure a program? Having to fix autoconf scripts is the same as having to edit sources, and worse. Having to edit a well-designed Makefile is the same as having to edit a decent (non-XML) configuration file. It's about time we agree about what 'linux' stands for. If you prefer to regard any of those modern linux-desktop trends with the term 'linux', I'd disagree. All the distros are the same shit. Some have more WIMPshit and some less. All have the same shitty core software designed for WIMPshit idiot users and the developers (incl. distributors) themselves. I may be missing something, but what makes you think so? Can you please be more specific on this point? http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2007/04/01/T19_09_22/ My impression is that, these days there is much less stupid questions on this list than there were three years ago, which makes me think that users tend to become less of lusers, no? It's just all moved and more appeared on IRC... and private mail. The mailing list demands subscription, you know. The lusers can't be arsed to do that. I can't either. Yet the mailing list would be the most appropriate place for the questions... but the best weapon against spam is subscription presently. -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
My impression is that, these days there is much less stupid questions on this list than there were three years ago, which makes me think that users tend to become less of lusers, no? I must diagree with this point. Luser questions on ion3's ML only means there are less lusers that use ion3 and bother to post stupid questions on the ML. I think a pure luser attitude is to be discouraged at the first difficulty, so they'd change to another WM before posting their lame questions. Most of them would not even try such a strange WM (or a using a non-mainstream OS) in the first place. But you're probably right if you meant there are less *ion* lusers now than before. I don't know about the user/lusers ratio, though I am pretty sure it is getting lower and lower over time (foldoc:// september that never ended). I mostly develop in Ruby and Rails, and the apparent ease to develop in such a language gathers many, many, many would-be developers (aged 14 to 18 most of the time) that does not have the slightest clue about what Object Oriented means, why MVC stands for, or even why is their commented code not working. Reading doc is so painful, when you feel anyone must give you the right answer and do the work for you. So yes, in my mind, lusers' number is growing. -- Sylvain Abelard, Railer Rubyist. Epita MTI 2008.
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-07, Sylvain Abélard [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Reading doc is so painful, when you feel anyone must give you the right answer and do the work for you. Reading documentation is painful, and shouldn't be necessary (beyond very general documentation) for basic configuration tasks (like clear crisp fonts [1], device permissions and aliases, etc.). Reading documentation should only be necessary for more advanced non-luser configuration. In Linux these days, the non-documentation reading alternative is provided only through WIMPshit, if at all. Ion also isn't perfect in that respect, and I think going for full scripting support may have been a mistake in the end (but then again, maybe Ion wouldn't have a lot of the small nice features it has these days, without it), but I've tried to make the basic options rather tolerable (just copy over cfg_ion.lua). See also [2]. I want to be a mere (l)user wrt. software i don't particularly care about! But I don't want to use WIMPshit; in that case I could just as well use Windows. The DOS era was the pinnacle of computing. [1]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2006/03/17/T20_15_31/ [2]: http://iki.fi/tuomov/b/archives/2007/02/02/T18_49_51/ -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On Mon, 2007-05-07 at 06:08 +, Tuomo Valkonen wrote: On 2007-05-06, csant [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Also known as ion-3rc-20070506. There seem to be no darcs changes to pull, and also the online changelog doesn't show the last changes. I'm not going to make it easy for all the forkers... So next time there's a bug in a release like the one with size requests, we'll just have to wait for your next release rather than retrieving the fix from your repository? Or make a local fix? This deliberate inaccessibility seems like a good way to deter (l)users from following and getting involved in Ion development. This doesn't seem to fit in with your apparent wish for a progression of users of different levels between them and the developers. Ben. -- Ben Hutchings If God had intended Man to program, we'd have been born with serial I/O ports. signature.asc Description: This is a digitally signed message part
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
On 2007-05-07, Tuomo Valkonen [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Ah, but most of the lusers will be using the distributions' forks. Since the site requires registration, I'll just say it here: many of the names at http://forums.debian.net/viewtopic.php?p=69522 are GAIM vs. AIM all over again, or even more associable to Ion. If you want the name to be associated with Ion, it should be Ion soup (something) (referring to the old saying about too many chefs stirring the soup). -- Tuomo
Re: ion-3rc-09f911029d74e35bd84156c5635688c0.tar.gz
Also known as ion-3rc-20070506. There seem to be no darcs changes to pull, and also the online changelog doesn't show the last changes. /c
