Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
On 14 December 2015 at 15:57, wrote: > Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: >> >> >> > My main reason for not persevering with Kexi (I did try it a while >> > ago) is that it is effectively proprietary in the way it uses >> > databases. You really can't share data between Kexi and other >> > applications. I have, for example, a lot of sqlite3 databases created >> > by a DokuWiki plugin. I'd love to be able to access and use them with >> > Kexi, but I can't. I could import them into Kexi but then the >> > Dokuwiki plugin could no longer access them. >> > >> > Simply by making kexi databases have the unique .kexi suffix I believe >> > you are putting a lot of people off. If one could at least *read* a >> > Kexi database directly it would help. >> >> Thanks for the notes Chris. >> >> Agree here and this is planned as a major new feature of Kexi 3, and >> has been discussed on the forum: >> https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=221&t=109559 >> >> (Note, the Predicate component is now called KDb) >> >> Features such as importing SQLite filed won't be needed then: >> https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125843 >> > Excellent. I think separating the 'actual data' tables from the > Kexi configuration is what's necessary. I've used other applications > which seem to manage this OK. I suppose it's easier with a database > server as opposed to sqlite because each app can create tables on the > server and there's little risk of them disappearing whereas sqlite > files might get moved or deleted. There will always be a benefit from storing metadata. There are no standards for storing info about width of columns in tabular view for example. We're using separate kexi__* tables and nothing more. There's nothing that stops user to keep these tables in separate database is she needs to for whatever reason (for example if the main database schema is read-only for her). You're right that compared to servers, the main purpose of SQLite format compared is compactness, self-contained format. So the cost of accepting outside edits of db schema will be that Kexi needs to deal with cases like this: 1. User removes column C from a table using 3rd-party tool 2. Kexi loads the table and while showing it needs to realize that there's no column C. It needs to go back to defaults regarding the column. If there were scripts or macros (future!) that refer to C, they may require manual or automatic adjustment. In addition, configuration of Kexi (like shortcuts, look/feel, paths/limitations) can be extended to many levels and this is what I noted long ago, at least: - Kexi app defaults (defined by implementation and default kexirc file), can depend on the Kexi installation/version - Kexi app config at user's account level, i.e. per-user-account kexirc file - configuration per project, for all users, that means a project admin/developer can alter setting for all users - configuration per project, for given user, possibly kept on a server, that means user that connects from any OS from any Kexi app instance/version should have the configuration applied - default configuration defined on a server used as a template when creating new projects for this server Priorities can define what level has precedence over others. There may be some inheritance too. I also understand there's no one-side-fits-all. > >> >> >> >> >> What exact features of simple table creation do you mean? >> >> >> > I want to be able to edit a table in place on a tabular form. Table >> > creation I am quite happy to do by other means, I just want simple, >> > straightforward data entry the way that Access does it by default. >> > >> > Having created the table one is presented with a 'spreadsheet' form >> > where existing data is displayed (scrolling if required) and I can >> > edit existing entries directly and add new rows. By default Access >> > shows a 'new entry' blank line at the bottom of the table. >> > >> > Editing entries needs to be very straightforward, just click on a >> > field and enter/delete text. No pop-up forms, double-clicks or >> > anything. >> > >> >> That's the way of Kexi, right? Especially the "new record" line. >> Kexi: http://i.imgur.com/O1W6l4L.png >> > ?? I went to the above URL and got what looks like a single field > entry in the middle of a blank screen. > > >> If I remember correctly there are no popups except one for asking >> about removing record(s) which is better handled in Kexi I think >> because there's a checkbox to dismiss the question for the future >> cases. In Access you need to use VBA or separate design mode options >> to disable the questions. >> >> Feel free to explain what is exactly missing in the area of data >> entry/editing as this is very important part of Kexi. >> >> The only difference to Access is that Kexi is closer to spreadsheets >> when editing a cell: you need to 2xclick or press F2 to edit existing >> value. This difference is a result of observation that navigation and >> copying/pasting of data is much easie
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: > >> > > My main reason for not persevering with Kexi (I did try it a while > > ago) is that it is effectively proprietary in the way it uses > > databases. You really can't share data between Kexi and other > > applications. I have, for example, a lot of sqlite3 databases created > > by a DokuWiki plugin. I'd love to be able to access and use them with > > Kexi, but I can't. I could import them into Kexi but then the > > Dokuwiki plugin could no longer access them. > > > > Simply by making kexi databases have the unique .kexi suffix I believe > > you are putting a lot of people off. If one could at least *read* a > > Kexi database directly it would help. > > Thanks for the notes Chris. > > Agree here and this is planned as a major new feature of Kexi 3, and > has been discussed on the forum: > https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=221&t=109559 > > (Note, the Predicate component is now called KDb) > > Features such as importing SQLite filed won't be needed then: > https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125843 > Excellent. I think separating the 'actual data' tables from the Kexi configuration is what's necessary. I've used other applications which seem to manage this OK. I suppose it's easier with a database server as opposed to sqlite because each app can create tables on the server and there's little risk of them disappearing whereas sqlite files might get moved or deleted. > > >> > >> What exact features of simple table creation do you mean? > >> > > I want to be able to edit a table in place on a tabular form. Table > > creation I am quite happy to do by other means, I just want simple, > > straightforward data entry the way that Access does it by default. > > > > Having created the table one is presented with a 'spreadsheet' form > > where existing data is displayed (scrolling if required) and I can > > edit existing entries directly and add new rows. By default Access > > shows a 'new entry' blank line at the bottom of the table. > > > > Editing entries needs to be very straightforward, just click on a > > field and enter/delete text. No pop-up forms, double-clicks or > > anything. > > > > That's the way of Kexi, right? Especially the "new record" line. > Kexi: http://i.imgur.com/O1W6l4L.png > ?? I went to the above URL and got what looks like a single field entry in the middle of a blank screen. > If I remember correctly there are no popups except one for asking > about removing record(s) which is better handled in Kexi I think > because there's a checkbox to dismiss the question for the future > cases. In Access you need to use VBA or separate design mode options > to disable the questions. > > Feel free to explain what is exactly missing in the area of data > entry/editing as this is very important part of Kexi. > > The only difference to Access is that Kexi is closer to spreadsheets > when editing a cell: you need to 2xclick or press F2 to edit existing > value. This difference is a result of observation that navigation and > copying/pasting of data is much easier. I think that's one thing I don't like, I *HATE* double-click in all its forms. I want to just click in field and start typing, also I expect to be able to TAB to the next field with no mouse interaction needed at all. -- Chris Green · ___ Kexi mailing list Kexi@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
On 14 December 2015 at 13:48, Swarup wrote: > On 12/14/2015 07:22 AM, Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: > > On 14 December 2015 at 13:13, wrote: > > Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: > > The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed > so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are > competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any > reasonable budget assigned. > > Yes, that's my pet hate, people using spreadsheets for storing tables > of text information. :-) > > That triggered creation of this chapter of the handbook: > https://userbase.kde.org/Kexi/Handbook/Introduction_to_Databases/Database_and_Spreadsheet > Nothing revolutionary and can be further extended :) > > PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server > architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite) > have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on > the server side? > > A good, easy to use front-end (like Kexi may become or MS Access sort > of is) would encourage more use of databases. > > I've been searching for a decent replacement for MS Access for ages > and still haven't found one. > > My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that > allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find > anything. > > Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to > use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a > spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs > (while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to > implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?) > added similar feature. > > But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table > feature to work. > > > What exact features of simple table creation do you mean? > > > I feel this middle ground between a spreadsheet and a db creation app is > incredibly important and will increase the value and use of Kexi among the > general linux user base exponentially. My estimation is the the majority of > potential Kexi users will be wanting it for this feature. That is what a > great number of Access users use Access for. These people are not terribly > technically inclined, and like the table format of Access better than a > spreadsheet format, for their purpose of storing text-based data. I am one > such person, and as a Linux user have been using Kexi for this middle ground > for several users-- although frankly it is far from satisfactory compared > with Access, due to lack of ability to alter the configuration or appearance > of a table after it has been created. Yes, that's a #1 wish from many people [1] https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125253 > > So in short, I agree with you Chris, that for this middle ground between a > spreadsheet and a db creation app, what I think you mean by the alter-table > feature, is more important than the simple table creation. Going into data > view to make the initial table is no big deal. But after the table is made, > then on the fly the following features are I think critically imporant: > > 1. Ability to create new rows and columns later on, in table view. > 2. Ability to rename columns later on. > 3. Ability to hide columns and rows in table view. > 4. Ability to move columns in table view. > 5. Ability to alter the number of characters allowed in a cell after the > table is made, without losing all the data. > 6. Ability to highlight and copy the cells of limited number of rows and > columns, i.e. a sub-section of the table. Of course physically creating table from scratch based on data the user entered is trivial. The points you listed are similar to the ones in the [1] wish. It's even known how to get there: https://community.kde.org/Kexi/Plugins/Tables/Simple_alter_table Just the development is more expensive than not :) > Some of these features may have already been implemented in your later > versions, as in Ubuntu I cannot upgrade to later versions (fixing this is > also incredibly needed). I am running version 2.8.5, although I would love > to be able to upgrade if there were a reasonable way to do so. Kexi 3 will be in separate repository and won't have too many dependencies of KDE frameworks. I do expect this will simplify preparation of binaries for most popular OSes like Krita has, distributed alternatively. Maybe this include some Linux packages -- contributions in this area is more than welcome. The goal is that user's will no longer be forced to stay with ancient versions -- this isn't freedom :) -- regards, Jaroslaw Staniek KDE: : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org Calligra Suite: : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org Kexi: : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi Qt Certified Specialist: : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek ___
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
On 14 December 2015 at 14:09, wrote: > Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: >> > >> > My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that >> > allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find >> > anything. >> >> Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to >> use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a >> spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs >> (while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to >> implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?) >> added similar feature. >> >> But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table >> feature to work. >> > My main reason for not persevering with Kexi (I did try it a while > ago) is that it is effectively proprietary in the way it uses > databases. You really can't share data between Kexi and other > applications. I have, for example, a lot of sqlite3 databases created > by a DokuWiki plugin. I'd love to be able to access and use them with > Kexi, but I can't. I could import them into Kexi but then the > Dokuwiki plugin could no longer access them. > > Simply by making kexi databases have the unique .kexi suffix I believe > you are putting a lot of people off. If one could at least *read* a > Kexi database directly it would help. Thanks for the notes Chris. Agree here and this is planned as a major new feature of Kexi 3, and has been discussed on the forum: https://forum.kde.org/viewtopic.php?f=221&t=109559 (Note, the Predicate component is now called KDb) Features such as importing SQLite filed won't be needed then: https://bugs.kde.org/show_bug.cgi?id=125843 Of course 'importing' server databases can be especially frustrating. >> >> What exact features of simple table creation do you mean? >> > I want to be able to edit a table in place on a tabular form. Table > creation I am quite happy to do by other means, I just want simple, > straightforward data entry the way that Access does it by default. > > Having created the table one is presented with a 'spreadsheet' form > where existing data is displayed (scrolling if required) and I can > edit existing entries directly and add new rows. By default Access > shows a 'new entry' blank line at the bottom of the table. > > Editing entries needs to be very straightforward, just click on a > field and enter/delete text. No pop-up forms, double-clicks or > anything. > That's the way of Kexi, right? Especially the "new record" line. Kexi: http://i.imgur.com/O1W6l4L.png If I remember correctly there are no popups except one for asking about removing record(s) which is better handled in Kexi I think because there's a checkbox to dismiss the question for the future cases. In Access you need to use VBA or separate design mode options to disable the questions. Feel free to explain what is exactly missing in the area of data entry/editing as this is very important part of Kexi. The only difference to Access is that Kexi is closer to spreadsheets when editing a cell: you need to 2xclick or press F2 to edit existing value. This difference is a result of observation that navigation and copying/pasting of data is much easier. Access (2016 and probably earlier ones) has a mix of both behaviours, it auto-selects the cell's content like Kexi: MSA: http://i.imgur.com/tCf2NVm.png But also allows to precisely click the given text position. It's not a problem to have it in Kexi at least optionally. -- regards, Jaroslaw Staniek KDE: : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org Calligra Suite: : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org Kexi: : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi Qt Certified Specialist: : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek ___ Kexi mailing list Kexi@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: > > > > My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that > > allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find > > anything. > > Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to > use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a > spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs > (while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to > implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?) > added similar feature. > > But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table > feature to work. > My main reason for not persevering with Kexi (I did try it a while ago) is that it is effectively proprietary in the way it uses databases. You really can't share data between Kexi and other applications. I have, for example, a lot of sqlite3 databases created by a DokuWiki plugin. I'd love to be able to access and use them with Kexi, but I can't. I could import them into Kexi but then the Dokuwiki plugin could no longer access them. Simply by making kexi databases have the unique .kexi suffix I believe you are putting a lot of people off. If one could at least *read* a Kexi database directly it would help. > > What exact features of simple table creation do you mean? > I want to be able to edit a table in place on a tabular form. Table creation I am quite happy to do by other means, I just want simple, straightforward data entry the way that Access does it by default. Having created the table one is presented with a 'spreadsheet' form where existing data is displayed (scrolling if required) and I can edit existing entries directly and add new rows. By default Access shows a 'new entry' blank line at the bottom of the table. Editing entries needs to be very straightforward, just click on a field and enter/delete text. No pop-up forms, double-clicks or anything. -- Chris Green · ___ Kexi mailing list Kexi@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
On 12/14/2015 07:22 AM, Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: On 14 December 2015 at 13:13, wrote: Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any reasonable budget assigned. Yes, that's my pet hate, people using spreadsheets for storing tables of text information. :-) That triggered creation of this chapter of the handbook: https://userbase.kde.org/Kexi/Handbook/Introduction_to_Databases/Database_and_Spreadsheet Nothing revolutionary and can be further extended :) PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite) have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on the server side? A good, easy to use front-end (like Kexi may become or MS Access sort of is) would encourage more use of databases. I've been searching for a decent replacement for MS Access for ages and still haven't found one. My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find anything. Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs (while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?) added similar feature. But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table feature to work. What exact features of simple table creation do you mean? I feel this middle ground between a spreadsheet and a db creation app is incredibly important and will increase the value and use of Kexi among the general linux user base exponentially. My estimation is the the majority of potential Kexi users will be wanting it for this feature. That is what a great number of Access users use Access for. These people are not terribly technically inclined, and like the table format of Access better than a spreadsheet format, for their purpose of storing text-based data. I am one such person, and as a Linux user have been using Kexi for this middle ground for several users-- although frankly it is far from satisfactory compared with Access, due to lack of ability to alter the configuration or appearance of a table after it has been created. So in short, I agree with you Chris, that for this middle ground between a spreadsheet and a db creation app, what I think you mean by the alter-table feature, is more important than the simple table creation. Going into data view to make the initial table is no big deal. But after the table is made, then on the fly the following features are I think critically imporant: 1. Ability to create new rows and columns later on, in table view. 2. Ability to rename columns later on. 3. Ability to hide columns and rows in table view. 4. Ability to move columns in table view. 5. Ability to alter the number of characters allowed in a cell after the table is made, without losing all the data. 6. Ability to highlight and copy the cells of limited number of rows and columns, i.e. a sub-section of the table. Some of these features may have already been implemented in your later versions, as in Ubuntu I cannot upgrade to later versions (fixing this is also incredibly needed). I am running version 2.8.5, although I would love to be able to upgrade if there were a reasonable way to do so. Swarup ___ Kexi mailing list Kexi@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
On 14 December 2015 at 13:13, wrote: > Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: >> >> The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed >> so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are >> competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any >> reasonable budget assigned. >> > Yes, that's my pet hate, people using spreadsheets for storing tables > of text information. :-) > That triggered creation of this chapter of the handbook: https://userbase.kde.org/Kexi/Handbook/Introduction_to_Databases/Database_and_Spreadsheet Nothing revolutionary and can be further extended :) > >> PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server >> architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite) >> have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on >> the server side? >> > A good, easy to use front-end (like Kexi may become or MS Access sort > of is) would encourage more use of databases. > > I've been searching for a decent replacement for MS Access for ages > and still haven't found one. > > My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that > allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find > anything. Yes, sometimes I am looking into ways to make Kexi even simpler to use, so if user wants it - it can be in the middle between a spreadsheet and a db creation app. Ad-hoc creating table designs (while entering the data) is one of the things, quite hard to implement though. Interesting, after the idea came MSA (maybe 2003?) added similar feature. But before it's reality we probably need to get reliable alter-table feature to work. What exact features of simple table creation do you mean? > -- > Chris Green > · > > ___ > Kexi mailing list > Kexi@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi -- regards, Jaroslaw Staniek KDE: : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org Calligra Suite: : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org Kexi: : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi Qt Certified Specialist: : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek ___ Kexi mailing list Kexi@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: > > The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed > so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are > competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any > reasonable budget assigned. > Yes, that's my pet hate, people using spreadsheets for storing tables of text information. :-) > PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server > architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite) > have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on > the server side? > A good, easy to use front-end (like Kexi may become or MS Access sort of is) would encourage more use of databases. I've been searching for a decent replacement for MS Access for ages and still haven't found one. My fundamental requirement is soemthing like Access' table view that allows very simple creation and updating of a table. I've yet to find anything. -- Chris Green · ___ Kexi mailing list Kexi@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
On 14 December 2015 at 12:32, wrote: > Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: >> Hi, >> December 7: Linux Voice review, Calligra included. >> Kexi wins in the Databases category: >> >> http://www.linuxvoice.com/group-test-office-suites >> > Hmm, I'd hardly say it wins. After saying that they weren't sure that > the 'desktop database' is a good idea in general they said:- > > "This leaves graphical database tools with a very small target > audience. Should you find yourself a member of this exclusive group, > we’d recommend Kexi, but only marginally." Yes, marginally. The margin related to (maybe) being able to run the app without a Java runtime. The exclusive group or RAD users is not small but severely distributed so quite hard to reach. Misused spreadsheets for example are competitors too. There's always room for IT projects without any reasonable budget assigned. PS: And I am unsure why would the LV claim there's no client-server architecture in such RAD tools if all database engines (but SQLite) have always been client-server. Maybe it's about the app and GUI on the server side? BR > Chris Green > · > > ___ > Kexi mailing list > Kexi@kde.org > https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi -- regards, Jaroslaw Staniek KDE: : A world-wide network of software engineers, artists, writers, translators : and facilitators committed to Free Software development - http://kde.org Calligra Suite: : A graphic art and office suite - http://calligra.org Kexi: : A visual database apps builder - http://calligra.org/kexi Qt Certified Specialist: : http://www.linkedin.com/in/jstaniek ___ Kexi mailing list Kexi@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
Re: [Kexi] Linux Voice review, Kexi wins in the Databases category
Jaroslaw Staniek wrote: > Hi, > December 7: Linux Voice review, Calligra included. > Kexi wins in the Databases category: > > http://www.linuxvoice.com/group-test-office-suites > Hmm, I'd hardly say it wins. After saying that they weren't sure that the 'desktop database' is a good idea in general they said:- "This leaves graphical database tools with a very small target audience. Should you find yourself a member of this exclusive group, we’d recommend Kexi, but only marginally." -- Chris Green · ___ Kexi mailing list Kexi@kde.org https://mail.kde.org/mailman/listinfo/kexi
