Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my Legacy program

[Lin Sharp]

Thank you so much to everyone who has responded to my query!!!

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 7:37 PM, CE WOOD <wood...@msn.com> wrote:

> The tradition of naming sons of kings "FitzRoy was a combination of the
> Welsh and French Norman - "fitz" = "son of in Welsh; "roi" = "king" in
> French. It was used by kings and the surname was "FitzRoy" = "son of the
> king". It was the way the king acknowledged that the son was his. Earlier,
> a child was acknowledged by the king only if he physically took the newborn
> when he was presented to him. Without that acknowledgement, the child had
> no claim to inheritance. Having a son, illegitimate or not, was essential
> in medieval times when most infants and children died, to say nothing of
> the ones who did survive only to die in battle.
>
>
> Henry I of England, son of William the Conqueror. was a prolific father,
> with many Welsh mistresses.Among them were:
>
>
>
> Robert FitzRoy, Baron of Okehampton (~1098 to 5/31/1172) by his mistress
> Edith ferch (Welsh for "daughter of") Forne.
>
>
> Reginald/Reynold FitzRoy de Dustanville, 1st Earl of Cornwall (~1110 -
> 7/1/1175) by an unknown mistress.
>
>
> Richard FitzRoy, Lord of Chilham, (~1186-~6/24/1246) was son of John I of
> England by nis mistress Suzanne de Warrenne.
>
>
> The tradition continued, one of the most famous being Henry FitzRoy, Duke
> of Richmond, (1519-1536), Henry VIII's only acknowledged and healthy son by
> Elizabeth Blount.
>
>
> Wikipedia is helpful when correct, but it is very flawed and certainly
> never a trustworthy source.
>
>
>
> CE
>
>
> --
> *From:* LegacyUserGroup <legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com> on
> behalf of Jenny M Benson <ge...@cedarbank.me.uk>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 10, 2017 2:53 PM
> *To:* legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com
> *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats
> into my Legacy program
>
> On 10-Aug-17 09:42 PM, CE WOOD wrote:
> > Fitz Alan meant he was the son of Alan. It had nothing whatsoever to do
> > with legitimacy!
> >
> >
>  From Wikipedia:  "From the Stuart era (1603–1714) and later, a
> pseudo-Anglo-Norman usage of Fitz was adopted for younger sons of the
> British royal family who lacked a legal surname, AND PARTICULARLY FOR
> illegitimate children of kings, princes, or general upper class men,..."
>
> (The capitalisation is mine, for emphasis.)
>
> --
> Jenny M Benson
> http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/
> JennyGenes Blogs <http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/>
> jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk
> I rather enjoyed myself the other day when my sister asked me for help to
> solve a little puzzle. It's always a good feeling when one can find the
> solution to a little ...
>
>
> --
>
> LegacyUserGroup mailing list
> LegacyUserGroup@legacyusers.com
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> mailman/listinfo/legacyusergroup_legacyusers.com
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> <http://legacyusers.com/mailman/listinfo/legacyusergroup_legacyusers.com>
> legacyusers.com
> This list is a mailing list for all of our Legacy users to share ideas and
> to help each other. Once you have subscribed to this mailing list you will
> be able to send ...
>
> Archives at:
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> www.mail-archive.com
> Messages by Thread [LegacyUG] Find - Modified Date Ian Thomas. Re:
> [LegacyUG] Find - Modified Date Denise Moss-Fritch [LegacyUG] Problem
> opening, backing up Legacy ...
>
>
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Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my Legacy program

[CE WOOD]

The tradition of naming sons of kings "FitzRoy was a combination of the Welsh 
and French Norman - "fitz" = "son of in Welsh; "roi" = "king" in French. It was 
used by kings and the surname was "FitzRoy" = "son of the king". It was the way 
the king acknowledged that the son was his. Earlier, a child was acknowledged 
by the king only if he physically took the newborn when he was presented to 
him. Without that acknowledgement, the child had no claim to inheritance. 
Having a son, illegitimate or not, was essential in medieval times when most 
infants and children died, to say nothing of the ones who did survive only to 
die in battle.


Henry I of England, son of William the Conqueror. was a prolific father, with 
many Welsh mistresses.Among them were:



Robert FitzRoy, Baron of Okehampton (~1098 to 5/31/1172) by his mistress Edith 
ferch (Welsh for "daughter of") Forne.


Reginald/Reynold FitzRoy de Dustanville, 1st Earl of Cornwall (~1110 - 
7/1/1175) by an unknown mistress.


Richard FitzRoy, Lord of Chilham, (~1186-~6/24/1246) was son of John I of 
England by nis mistress Suzanne de Warrenne.


The tradition continued, one of the most famous being Henry FitzRoy, Duke of 
Richmond, (1519-1536), Henry VIII's only acknowledged and healthy son by 
Elizabeth Blount.


Wikipedia is helpful when correct, but it is very flawed and certainly never a 
trustworthy source.



CE



From: LegacyUserGroup <legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com> on behalf of 
Jenny M Benson <ge...@cedarbank.me.uk>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 2:53 PM
To: legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my 
Legacy program

On 10-Aug-17 09:42 PM, CE WOOD wrote:
> Fitz Alan meant he was the son of Alan. It had nothing whatsoever to do
> with legitimacy!
>
>
 From Wikipedia:  "From the Stuart era (1603–1714) and later, a
pseudo-Anglo-Norman usage of Fitz was adopted for younger sons of the
British royal family who lacked a legal surname, AND PARTICULARLY FOR
illegitimate children of kings, princes, or general upper class men,..."

(The capitalisation is mine, for emphasis.)

--
Jenny M Benson
http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/
JennyGenes Blogs<http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/>
jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk
I rather enjoyed myself the other day when my sister asked me for help to solve 
a little puzzle. It's always a good feeling when one can find the solution to a 
little ...



--

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Messages by Thread [LegacyUG] Find - Modified Date Ian Thomas. Re: [LegacyUG] 
Find - Modified Date Denise Moss-Fritch [LegacyUG] Problem opening, backing up 
Legacy ...


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Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my Legacy program

[Jane Linkswiler]

Thank you, thank you. So many things I’ve just never thought about. Now I
need to add to my to do’s.

 

Jane in Phoenix

 

From: LegacyUserGroup [mailto:legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com] On
Behalf Of CE WOOD
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 1:42 PM
To: Legacy User Group <legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com>
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my
Legacy program

 

Fitz Alan meant he was the son of Alan. It had nothing whatsoever to do with
legitimacy!

 

Later, Fitz Allen became used as a surname and was used for daughters as
well as sons.

 

"de Ferrers" was never a surname. It meant the person was "from Ferrières".

 

Medieval genealogists do not use the "de" in assigning a surname, nor do
they use "mac", "von", "van", "di", etc., because those words also means
"from". In a database such as Legacy, it is so very much simpler, as well as
correct, to use the place name "Ferrières" (which was Anglicized into
"Ferrers", "Hohenstaufen", "Egmond", etc.

 

Imagine searching through all the "de " to find the one.

 

 

Also, if you are venturing into medieval times, Legacy is the perfect
program because it allows for many AKAs. That is essential, because people
usually referred to in documents by one or more of the titles they held, not
by their place of origin. It is incredibly helpful to have all the AKAs
listed because then, when you find someone mentioned, you can search by that
alternate name. It also allows you to have a listing of the succesive earls,
duke, etc., of a place right there in your index!

 

The surnames below, found in documents, are underlined:

 

Take William d'Aubigny. He was also known in documents as William d"Albini,
and William, 1st Earl of Arundel, among others.

 

John fitz Alan of Arundel was known as John 4th Earl of Arundel, John
FitzAlan, John fitz Alan, 2nd Earl of Clun, John FitzAlan, 2nd Earl of Clun.

 

As the Middle Ages progressed, the titles came fast a furious. Depending
when in a person lifetime the documents were written, the same person would
be mentioned by a different title. 

 

If you  are venturing into the medieval, BEWARE! Use primary sources or
reliable secondary sources ONLY.

 

Primary sources include the Calendar of Close Rolls, Calendar of Fine Rolls,
Calendar of Inquistions Post Mortem (IPMs), Calendar of Inquistions
Miscellaneous, Calendar of Papal Registers, e. alia.

 

Also be aware that even the reliable secondary sources such as Complete
Peerage, Domesday, Descendants, Domesday People, Europäische Stammtafeln,
and Settipani's tomes, have been corrected as new documents are being
discovered all the time. 

 

 

 

CE 

 

  _  

From: LegacyUserGroup <legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com
<mailto:legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com> > on behalf of Jenny M
Benson <ge...@cedarbank.me.uk <mailto:ge...@cedarbank.me.uk> >
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 12:57 PM
To: legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com <mailto:legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com>

Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my
Legacy program 

 

On 10-Aug-17 08:17 PM, Lin Sharp wrote:
> I am fortunate in having success in documenting some of my family lines
> back as far as the 13th century in what is now the UK. I would appreciate
> suggestions as to the best way to record those names in my Legacy program.
> Names such as the following are a bit different from today's nomenclature:
> 
> 
> Eleanore de Ferrers
> Richard Fitz Alan
> William Le Bigod etc.
> 
> As I understand it, what appear to be prefixes indicate their parentage.
> With my various "Fitz" names (for instance) it appears that William Fitz
> Hugh is the son of Hugh. Hugh may have been the son of Ralph and his name
> appears "Hugh Fitz Ralph". His father may have been Ralph Fitz William,
> etc. This of course is not our way of naming today when the surname
> typically remains the same (except for spelling) from one generation to
the
> next..
> 
> My question is how to record these names in the surname box. Do I show "de
> Ferrers" as the surname, or "Eleanore de" as the then given name in the
> first example? For Richard Fitz Alan, is "Fitz" a part of the surname?
> The same goes for William Le Bigod. It wouldn't really work right to
> include the "de" , "Fitz", or "Le" in the prefix box because some of these
> ancestors also have Titles.
> 
> I know that consistency is my main objective but would truly would
> appreciate guidance as to the proper way to do this!
> 
> 
> 
Strictly speaking, "de Ferrers", "Fitz Alan", "le Bigod" in your 
examples are not surnames but 

Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my Legacy program

[Jenny M Benson]

On 10-Aug-17 09:42 PM, CE WOOD wrote:
Fitz Alan meant he was the son of Alan. It had nothing whatsoever to do 
with legitimacy!



From Wikipedia:  "From the Stuart era (1603–1714) and later, a 
pseudo-Anglo-Norman usage of Fitz was adopted for younger sons of the 
British royal family who lacked a legal surname, AND PARTICULARLY FOR 
illegitimate children of kings, princes, or general upper class men,..."


(The capitalisation is mine, for emphasis.)

--
Jenny M Benson
http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/

--

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Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my Legacy program

[Lin Sharp]

My most sincere thanks to all who replied to my query!  This was my first
post on the Legacy User Group and I am thrilled to find such helpful people!


On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 4:42 PM, CE WOOD <wood...@msn.com> wrote:

> Fitz Alan meant he was the son of Alan. It had nothing whatsoever to do
> with legitimacy!
>
>
> Later, Fitz Allen became used as a surname and was used for daughters as
> well as sons.
>
>
> "de Ferrers" was never a surname. It meant the person was "from Ferrières
> ".
>
>
> Medieval genealogists do not use the "de" in assigning a surname, nor do
> they use "mac", "von", "van", "di", etc., because those words also means
> "from". In a database such as Legacy, it is so very much simpler, as well
> as correct, to use the place name "Ferrières" (which was Anglicized into
> "Ferrers", "Hohenstaufen", "Egmond", etc.
>
>
> Imagine searching through all the "de " to find the one.
>
>
>
> Also, if you are venturing into medieval times, Legacy is the perfect
> program because it allows for many AKAs. That is essential, because people
> usually referred to in documents by one or more of the titles they held,
> not by their place of origin. It is incredibly helpful to have all the AKAs
> listed because then, when you find someone mentioned, you can search by
> that alternate name. It also allows you to have a listing of the succesive
> earls, duke, etc., of a place right there in your index!
>
>
> The surnames below, found in documents, are underlined:
>
>
> Take William d'*Aubigny*. He was also known in documents as William d"
> *Albini*, and William, 1st Earl of *Arundel*, among others.
>
>
> John fitz *Alan* of Arundel was known as John 4th Earl of *Arundel*, John
> *FitzAlan*, John fitz *Alan*, 2nd Earl of Clun, John *FitzAlan*, 2nd Earl
> of Clun.
>
>
> As the Middle Ages progressed, the titles came fast a furious. Depending
> when in a person lifetime the documents were written, the same person would
> be mentioned by a different title.
>
>
> If you  are venturing into the medieval, BEWARE! Use primary sources or
> reliable secondary sources ONLY.
>
>
> Primary sources include the Calendar of Close Rolls, Calendar of Fine
> Rolls, Calendar of Inquistions Post Mortem (IPMs), Calendar of Inquistions
> Miscellaneous, Calendar of Papal Registers, e. alia.
>
>
> Also be aware that even the reliable secondary sources such as *Complete
> Peerage*, *Domesday, Descendants*, *Domesday People*, *Europäische
> Stammtafeln*, and Settipani's tomes, have been corrected as new documents
> are being discovered all the time.
>
>
>
>
> CE
>
>
> --
> *From:* LegacyUserGroup <legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com> on
> behalf of Jenny M Benson <ge...@cedarbank.me.uk>
> *Sent:* Thursday, August 10, 2017 12:57 PM
> *To:* legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com
> *Subject:* Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats
> into my Legacy program
>
> On 10-Aug-17 08:17 PM, Lin Sharp wrote:
> > I am fortunate in having success in documenting some of my family lines
> > back as far as the 13th century in what is now the UK. I would appreciate
> > suggestions as to the best way to record those names in my Legacy
> program.
> > Names such as the following are a bit different from today's
> nomenclature:
> >
> >
> > Eleanore de Ferrers
> > Richard Fitz Alan
> > William Le Bigod etc.
> >
> > As I understand it, what appear to be prefixes indicate their parentage.
> > With my various "Fitz" names (for instance) it appears that William Fitz
> > Hugh is the son of Hugh. Hugh may have been the son of Ralph and his name
> > appears "Hugh Fitz Ralph". His father may have been Ralph Fitz William,
> > etc. This of course is not our way of naming today when the surname
> > typically remains the same (except for spelling) from one generation to
> the
> > next..
> >
> > My question is how to record these names in the surname box. Do I show
> "de
> > Ferrers" as the surname, or "Eleanore de" as the then given name in the
> > first example? For Richard Fitz Alan, is "Fitz" a part of the surname?
> > The same goes for William Le Bigod. It wouldn't really work right to
> > include the "de" , "Fitz", or "Le" in the prefix box because some of
> these
> > ancestors also have Titles.
> >
> > I know that consistency is my main objective but would truly would
> >

Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my Legacy program

[CE WOOD]

Fitz Alan meant he was the son of Alan. It had nothing whatsoever to do with 
legitimacy!


Later, Fitz Allen became used as a surname and was used for daughters as well 
as sons.


"de Ferrers" was never a surname. It meant the person was "from Ferrières".


Medieval genealogists do not use the "de" in assigning a surname, nor do they 
use "mac", "von", "van", "di", etc., because those words also means "from". In 
a database such as Legacy, it is so very much simpler, as well as correct, to 
use the place name "Ferrières" (which was Anglicized into "Ferrers", 
"Hohenstaufen", "Egmond", etc.


Imagine searching through all the "de " to find the one.



Also, if you are venturing into medieval times, Legacy is the perfect program 
because it allows for many AKAs. That is essential, because people usually 
referred to in documents by one or more of the titles they held, not by their 
place of origin. It is incredibly helpful to have all the AKAs listed because 
then, when you find someone mentioned, you can search by that alternate name. 
It also allows you to have a listing of the succesive earls, duke, etc., of a 
place right there in your index!


The surnames below, found in documents, are underlined:


Take William d'Aubigny. He was also known in documents as William d"Albini, and 
William, 1st Earl of Arundel, among others.


John fitz Alan of Arundel was known as John 4th Earl of Arundel, John FitzAlan, 
John fitz Alan, 2nd Earl of Clun, John FitzAlan, 2nd Earl of Clun.


As the Middle Ages progressed, the titles came fast a furious. Depending when 
in a person lifetime the documents were written, the same person would be 
mentioned by a different title.


If you  are venturing into the medieval, BEWARE! Use primary sources or 
reliable secondary sources ONLY.


Primary sources include the Calendar of Close Rolls, Calendar of Fine Rolls, 
Calendar of Inquistions Post Mortem (IPMs), Calendar of Inquistions 
Miscellaneous, Calendar of Papal Registers, e. alia.


Also be aware that even the reliable secondary sources such as Complete 
Peerage, Domesday, Descendants, Domesday People, Europäische Stammtafeln, and 
Settipani's tomes, have been corrected as new documents are being discovered 
all the time.




CE



From: LegacyUserGroup <legacyusergroup-boun...@legacyusers.com> on behalf of 
Jenny M Benson <ge...@cedarbank.me.uk>
Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2017 12:57 PM
To: legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com
Subject: Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my 
Legacy program

On 10-Aug-17 08:17 PM, Lin Sharp wrote:
> I am fortunate in having success in documenting some of my family lines
> back as far as the 13th century in what is now the UK. I would appreciate
> suggestions as to the best way to record those names in my Legacy program.
> Names such as the following are a bit different from today's nomenclature:
>
>
> Eleanore de Ferrers
> Richard Fitz Alan
> William Le Bigod etc.
>
> As I understand it, what appear to be prefixes indicate their parentage.
> With my various "Fitz" names (for instance) it appears that William Fitz
> Hugh is the son of Hugh. Hugh may have been the son of Ralph and his name
> appears "Hugh Fitz Ralph". His father may have been Ralph Fitz William,
> etc. This of course is not our way of naming today when the surname
> typically remains the same (except for spelling) from one generation to the
> next..
>
> My question is how to record these names in the surname box. Do I show "de
> Ferrers" as the surname, or "Eleanore de" as the then given name in the
> first example? For Richard Fitz Alan, is "Fitz" a part of the surname?
> The same goes for William Le Bigod. It wouldn't really work right to
> include the "de" , "Fitz", or "Le" in the prefix box because some of these
> ancestors also have Titles.
>
> I know that consistency is my main objective but would truly would
> appreciate guidance as to the proper way to do this!
>
>
>
Strictly speaking, "de Ferrers", "Fitz Alan", "le Bigod" in your
examples are not surnames but descriptives.  I see no reason, though,
why you should not treat them as surnames.  In each case I would put the
entire contents of the quotation marks I have used into the Surname
field in Legacy.  Bear in mind, of course, that you will probably have
to override the "suggested" Surname which Legacy will automatically
assign if you are entering one of these people as a child of his/her
father and you will probably also have to override the Surname when
entering the children of the males.

It may or may not be the case for Richard Fitz Alan, but I 

Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my Legacy program

[David Turley]

I too have ancestors with uncommon names from that period. I have treated
them as surnames and have not had any problems with them not being
recognized on websites such as FamilySearch. As to the use of Fitz in a
name, my sources do not indicate "illegitimate birth", rather simply "son
of".

On Thu, Aug 10, 2017 at 1:57 PM, Jenny M Benson 
wrote:

> On 10-Aug-17 08:17 PM, Lin Sharp wrote:
>
>> I am fortunate in having success in documenting some of my family lines
>> back as far as the 13th century in what is now the UK. I would appreciate
>> suggestions as to the best way to record those names in my Legacy program.
>> Names such as the following are a bit different from today's nomenclature:
>>
>>
>> Eleanore de Ferrers
>> Richard Fitz Alan
>> William Le Bigod etc.
>>
>> As I understand it, what appear to be prefixes indicate their parentage.
>> With my various "Fitz" names (for instance) it appears that William Fitz
>> Hugh is the son of Hugh. Hugh may have been the son of Ralph and his name
>> appears "Hugh Fitz Ralph". His father may have been Ralph Fitz William,
>> etc. This of course is not our way of naming today when the surname
>> typically remains the same (except for spelling) from one generation to
>> the
>> next..
>>
>> My question is how to record these names in the surname box. Do I show "de
>> Ferrers" as the surname, or "Eleanore de" as the then given name in the
>> first example? For Richard Fitz Alan, is "Fitz" a part of the surname?
>> The same goes for William Le Bigod. It wouldn't really work right to
>> include the "de" , "Fitz", or "Le" in the prefix box because some of these
>> ancestors also have Titles.
>>
>> I know that consistency is my main objective but would truly would
>> appreciate guidance as to the proper way to do this!
>>
>>
>>
>> Strictly speaking, "de Ferrers", "Fitz Alan", "le Bigod" in your examples
> are not surnames but descriptives.  I see no reason, though, why you should
> not treat them as surnames.  In each case I would put the entire contents
> of the quotation marks I have used into the Surname field in Legacy.  Bear
> in mind, of course, that you will probably have to override the "suggested"
> Surname which Legacy will automatically assign if you are entering one of
> these people as a child of his/her father and you will probably also have
> to override the Surname when entering the children of the males.
>
> It may or may not be the case for Richard Fitz Alan, but I think I am
> right in saying that Fitz usually indicated the child was the illegitimate
> offspring of his father.
> --
> Jenny M Benson
> http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/
>
> --
>
> LegacyUserGroup mailing list
> LegacyUserGroup@legacyusers.com
> To manage your subscription and unsubscribe http://legacyusers.com/mailman
> /listinfo/legacyusergroup_legacyusers.com
> Archives at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/legacyusergroup@legacyusers.com/
>
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Re: [LegacyUG] How best to record less common name formats into my Legacy program

[Jenny M Benson]

On 10-Aug-17 08:17 PM, Lin Sharp wrote:

I am fortunate in having success in documenting some of my family lines
back as far as the 13th century in what is now the UK. I would appreciate
suggestions as to the best way to record those names in my Legacy program.
Names such as the following are a bit different from today's nomenclature:


Eleanore de Ferrers
Richard Fitz Alan
William Le Bigod etc.

As I understand it, what appear to be prefixes indicate their parentage.
With my various "Fitz" names (for instance) it appears that William Fitz
Hugh is the son of Hugh. Hugh may have been the son of Ralph and his name
appears "Hugh Fitz Ralph". His father may have been Ralph Fitz William,
etc. This of course is not our way of naming today when the surname
typically remains the same (except for spelling) from one generation to the
next..

My question is how to record these names in the surname box. Do I show "de
Ferrers" as the surname, or "Eleanore de" as the then given name in the
first example? For Richard Fitz Alan, is "Fitz" a part of the surname?
The same goes for William Le Bigod. It wouldn't really work right to
include the "de" , "Fitz", or "Le" in the prefix box because some of these
ancestors also have Titles.

I know that consistency is my main objective but would truly would
appreciate guidance as to the proper way to do this!



Strictly speaking, "de Ferrers", "Fitz Alan", "le Bigod" in your 
examples are not surnames but descriptives.  I see no reason, though, 
why you should not treat them as surnames.  In each case I would put the 
entire contents of the quotation marks I have used into the Surname 
field in Legacy.  Bear in mind, of course, that you will probably have 
to override the "suggested" Surname which Legacy will automatically 
assign if you are entering one of these people as a child of his/her 
father and you will probably also have to override the Surname when 
entering the children of the males.


It may or may not be the case for Richard Fitz Alan, but I think I am 
right in saying that Fitz usually indicated the child was the 
illegitimate offspring of his father.

--
Jenny M Benson
http://jennygenes.blogspot.co.uk/

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