[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #44 from Drew Jensen  ---
(In reply to Tamas Bunth from comment #31)
> from bug title:
> "advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1"
> 
> You can revert the migration by opening "content.xml" in the zipped
> structure and replace the URL "sdbc:embedded:firebird" with
> "sdbc:embedded:hsqldb". This will work, because the old HSQLDB data is still
> in the odb structure. You may also want to remove "database/firebird.fbk" so
> it won't make any surprises when you try to migrate next time.
> 
> Of course, the above method is not user friendly. I would like to suggest
> that - instead of advising the user to backup it's data - we should revert
> the changes automatically (with the above mentioned method) if the migration
> wasn't successful.
> 
> By "wasn't successful" I mean that the sdbc driver throws an exception -
> which indicates a lot of errors, but not all of them (e.g. what if something
> is just missing in the new format). In these cases the user could still
> revert the migration manually. Because of that, the above mentioned way to
> revert the migration should be put into a wiki or something.

Right you are and there is a place holder for that on the wiki now.
https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Documentation/FirebirdMigration

I just made sure that I have edit rights there and I do, so I'm willing to help
put that page together with you folks, if you'll have me.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|REOPENED|RESOLVED
   See Also||https://bugs.documentfounda
   ||tion.org/show_bug.cgi?id=11
   ||7106
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

--- Comment #43 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Closing again as per comment 40; and Florian R. opened bug 117106

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #42 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to Florian Reisinger from comment #41)
> I do not think this is fixed as of yet...

Suggest to close this ticket as no dev will ever read all the messages, in
particular when a patch has been submitted. So ideally you come to a final
decision what should be done (not what's wrong) and file another ticket for it.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Florian Reisinger  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|RESOLVED|REOPENED
 Resolution|FIXED   |---

--- Comment #41 from Florian Reisinger  ---
I do not think this is fixed as of yet, as per comment #38 this has only been
accepted as "a temporary workaround for master".

Personally I would not offer the migration in any 6.1 release builds (side
question: Are experimental features automatically enabled in master?).

I do not see the issue resolved until the comments in #39 are treated.

Furthermore this dialog should be "safety focused" and revert the logic by
definition. 

As already said using more words: This does not protect the user and as data
can be lost and corrupted we need a longer testing period.

I furthermore see the "backup" solution (keeping the HSQLDB database in the
file) as not ideal by far. If a file dialog opens user would question the
action / have a working backup copy.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on|117090  |


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117090
[Bug 117090] EDITING: Firebird: migration: View definitions are lost from
embedded hsql files using functions unknown to Firebird
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Depends on||117090


Referenced Bugs:

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=117090
[Bug 117090] EDITING: Firebird: migration: View definitions are lost from
embedded hsql files using functions unknown to Firebird
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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

V Stuart Foote  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Status|NEW |RESOLVED
 Resolution|--- |FIXED

--- Comment #40 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Closing this resolved fixed. The automatic migration has been quashed, internal
HSQLDB support restored and a suitable user dialog to perform the migration
(Yes) or not (Later).

Obviously the fidelity of the migration needs continued work--but this facet is
fixed.

=-ref-=
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52876/

https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/gitweb?p=core.git;a=commitdiff;h=5b0ceb86c342754d8f4e83408c7ae0da0e3931d3

and ongoing tweaks.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #39 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to robert from comment #37)

> Seems there should appear a popup. Better would be: You choose the migration
> explicit. A popup will appear every time I open a HSQLDB-database with LO
> 6.1.

A opening dialog is appropriate here because the migration can occur. I'd
expect additional dev work to control offering the migration, including an
expert configuration stanza or Options entry to not convert while we continue
to carry HSQLDB 

> One unconcentrated moment and the user presses "YES" - all data will
> have been gone for him.
> 

Maybe, but lets get the GUI pieces working. 

> The migration isn't working as intended. I don't get any database here
> working with that - all data have gone after migration, views also,
> relations also. See
> https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116968
> 

Nor would they be expected to until the code referenced in comment 32 is
actually committed and present in a build for use.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||tietze.he...@gmail.com

--- Comment #38 from Heiko Tietze  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #36)
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52876/

Would be nice to get a screenshot.

(In reply to robert from comment #37)
> One unconcentrated moment and the user presses "YES" - all data will
> have been gone for him.

Safety-focused dialogs revert the logic and Yes, remaining the default, cancels
the operation. We use the other, more annoying, approach with a couple of
confirmation and backup dialogs when LibreOffice has crashed. 

But we are talking about a temporary solution for master, right? Lost the
thread with the many comments ;-).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Heiko Tietze  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

   Keywords|needsUXEval |

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #37 from rob...@familiegrosskopf.de ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #36)
> 
> Oops, nevermind. Just read the migrwarndlg.ui in
> https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52876/
> 
Seems there should appear a popup. Better would be: You choose the migration
explicit. A popup will appear every time I open a HSQLDB-database with LO 6.1.
One unconcentrated moment and the user presses "YES" - all data will have been
gone for him.

The migration isn't working as intended. I don't get any database here working
with that - all data have gone after migration, views also, relations also. See
https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116968

Putting the backup in the *.odb-file couldn't be the solution for normal users.
I wouldn't trust a office-suite which tells me: You are looking for your data?
Please use a packing-program, open the *.odb-file ...

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #36 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #35)
> @Tamás, Miklos, Lionel, *
> 
> With internal HSQLDB support now restored through 6.1 (and likely through
> later releases) why shouldn't we make the offer of odb migration to internal
> Firebird 3 an opt-in action?

Oops, nevermind. Just read the migrwarndlg.ui in
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52876/

But still, give some note of possibility of and how-to revert?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #35 from V Stuart Foote  ---
@Tamás, Miklos, Lionel, *

With internal HSQLDB support now restored through 6.1 (and likely through later
releases) why shouldn't we make the offer of odb migration to internal Firebird
3 an opt-in action?

Then could also provide a note in the GUI that reversion HSQLDB is possible and
point to a good source how-to (Wiki or Help).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #34 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Florian Reisinger from comment #33)

"Users" are not going to be working with master/6.1.0 at this point!

Rather, it remains in the preview of project QA effort and expert users who of
necessity must test and advise the developers if the code is suitable for
release. What role do you intend to play here?

Leaving the migration code and Firebird stuck in experimental mode as it has
been does nothing to move the effort along.

Please rest assured that if we get to the end of the 6.1 dev cycle--and the
code is not ready for release--hopefully not because it has not adequately been
tested and engaged feedback provided--it would be grounds for blocker status
and the release then does not roll until fixed.

Production use belongs currently on 5.4.6, or an earlier stable EOL release.
Production on current fresh 6.0.3 is probably safe--and can safely remain on
6.0 through the 6.0.7 and beyond its EOL in November 2018.

Point is folks are not and will not be forced to migrate to Firebird 3 for
internal data before they are comfortable that they can protect their processes
and data--they just will not be on the current "Fresh" build. 

Consider for example that currently we do not even recommend a 6.0 update for
5.4 and earlier users.

Not saying go away, but please roll up your sleeves and either build from
source and test, or tune in to the nightlies as they roll from our TinderBox
suite and test on that cycle as Tamás notes.

Constructive feedback on explicit issues with samples to Tamás (and the other
devs) is a lot more effective here than dropping an anchor and pestering the
devs.

Just saying...

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #33 from Florian Reisinger  ---
@Tamas:

EDIT START

I am very happy about changes happening in the right direction. The statement
below still is true.

On the one hand we still have a few months until it will be fixed. But as
databases are a complex system, I still believe that this conversion should be
experimental.

This could be because of the shock it left as so many (nearly everything
[relationships, views]) has been broken when we got asked to test this.

EDIT END

If LibreOffice was built for developers, I would advise you to submit that on
Stackoverflow and the problem would not be that big.

Without knowing exactly what problems can be detected by the return code of
Firebird   this might be even more beneficial.

But this approach ist strictly against our users. I would feel bad for
LibreOffice as I guess that loads of people will stop using LibreOffice because
of this.

In fact LibreOffice is an end user software.

If we know it is working flawlessly, it should happen with a dialog like it has
been presented. (or a similar one "in this version of LibreOffice the database
needs to be migrated... "Migrate / Close"

If we think it is the way moving forward, bit know major flaws (feature parity
to HSQLDB is not present) it must not be enabled by default. Depending on the
maturity of the conversion it might be a "Migrate / Delay" dialog, but prior to
this the conversion should not be advertised too much.

TL;DL: Many user are not capable of finding / reading ("understanding the
language") or executing ("how to unzip / with which editor should that file be
opened") therefore having an "Migrate / Later" will either trigger "migrate, I
need to get something done" or a few times clicking "later" and than giving up
and clicking "migrate". Many user won't read the dialog. For end users we
should enable it without dialog, if and only if we are very confident
everything is working. Prior to that it should be an experimental feature (the
automatic conversion, not the database itself) and in that case does not need
an dialogue as well as users must opt-in.



My major problem is: Very few things (tables without relations) are working.
But a database without foreign key constraints is no real database. And that
cannot be converted. In the current state this is not ready to ship as
an"enabled by default" feature.

I am not saying "no", I am saying "not just now"

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #32 from Tamas Bunth  ---
Hi Florian,

(In reply to Florian Reisinger from comment #30)
> As no kind of relationships (foreign key relations) or views can be migrated
> to Firebird users should not be prompted just yet!

These are already on gerrit.
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/52892/
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/52893/
https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/52879/

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #31 from Tamas Bunth  ---
from bug title:
"advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1"

You can revert the migration by opening "content.xml" in the zipped structure
and replace the URL "sdbc:embedded:firebird" with "sdbc:embedded:hsqldb". This
will work, because the old HSQLDB data is still in the odb structure. You may
also want to remove "database/firebird.fbk" so it won't make any surprises when
you try to migrate next time.

Of course, the above method is not user friendly. I would like to suggest that
- instead of advising the user to backup it's data - we should revert the
changes automatically (with the above mentioned method) if the migration wasn't
successful.

By "wasn't successful" I mean that the sdbc driver throws an exception - which
indicates a lot of errors, but not all of them (e.g. what if something is just
missing in the new format). In these cases the user could still revert the
migration manually. Because of that, the above mentioned way to revert the
migration should be put into a wiki or something.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #30 from Florian Reisinger  ---
As no kind of relationships (foreign key relations) or views can be migrated to
Firebird users should not be prompted just yet!

With the current migration quality, this either should not be included in 6.1
(we have quite some time until there to improve). In the current state it
should be AT MOST an experimental feature.

Note: I am not talking about making the database experimental again, I am
explicitly talking about the (semi) automatic conversion!

Just showing a dialog is no solution, the user will click anything to just be
able to work.

This (in my opinion) is the opposite direction to what we seemed to agree on.
This most certainly is not a stated approach but a big bang again.

Please assure me, that I am interpreting the commit wrong...

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #29 from Commit Notification 
 ---
Tamas Bunth committed a patch related to this issue.
It has been pushed to "master":

http://cgit.freedesktop.org/libreoffice/core/commit/?id=5b0ceb86c342754d8f4e83408c7ae0da0e3931d3

tdf#116944 Warn user before database migration

It will be available in 6.1.0.

The patch should be included in the daily builds available at
http://dev-builds.libreoffice.org/daily/ in the next 24-48 hours. More
information about daily builds can be found at:
http://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Testing_Daily_Builds

Affected users are encouraged to test the fix and report feedback.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Commit Notification  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 Whiteboard||target:6.1.0

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #28 from Lionel Elie Mamane  ---
(In reply to Gerhard Weydt from comment #27)
> I simply do not know how to "put Tamás in cc"

Near top right of bug, to the right of "CC list", click "edit". In the "add"
textbox, enter "tamas bunth", wait about a second, click on the search result.
Below the "additioanl comments" textbox, click "save changes".


> That's the same issue as Stuart talking of ESC
> (comment #11): I simply don't know what this means,

https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Development/ESC

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #27 from Gerhard Weydt  ---
@25: That's just the problem I wanted to address: you people in the heart of
LibreOffice have many connections, but we simple users (as which I consider
myself: I have 30 years of experience in software development, but not in
LibreOffice; I am active in using LibO and writing handbooks, but not involved
in development; I certainly can help in testing, perhaps in suggesting, but
probably not in sketching solutions) do not have the information. I simply do
not know how to "put Tamás in cc" because I do not have his mail address. I
once registered with nabble (don't know why), and I think this will reveal the
address for me, but this was not what I asked for. I would have had the address
plainly: his mail address or some other for the same purpose. That's the same
issue as Stuart talking of ESC (comment #11): I simply don't know what this
means, I assumed that SC meant Steering Committee, but I still don't know.
So please give some more detailed information for us interested and new and
willing contributors.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #26 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Lionel Elie Mamane from comment #25)
> File bugs, put Tamás in CC, and make it block bug 116968, 116970 or 51780 as
> appropriate.

To make it just a bit easier for folks here are active links to the META
issues...

bug 116968 -- "Migrating existing embedded HSQLDB databases to Firebird"
bug 116970 -- "HSQLDB removal blockers"
bug 51780 -- "Default to Firebird not HSQLDB in Base (for _new_ files)"

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #25 from Lionel Elie Mamane  ---
(In reply to Gerhard Weydt from comment #24)

> (...) should intensively test Firebird and the migration program

> - Where can we report?

File bugs, put Tamás in CC, and make it block bug 116968, 116970 or 51780 as
appropriate.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #24 from Gerhard Weydt  ---
I think we all agree that the presently communicated concept for the
change-over from HSQLDB to Firebird - which I hope all will accept as necessary
in the long run - is much more convincing than what we understood from the bits
of information we had got (the information policy could have been better).

Now those of us that are concerned with HSQL databases and have more knowledge
than "simple" users should intensively test Firebird and the migration program
and report our findings, in order that the migration, when it will be in
effect, should be easy, secure and complete, as far as it is possible, for all
users, and hence be accepted as a positive step even by those users who might
not care for the reasons behind the screen.

- The discusion I followed was in the german discuss and in this bug. How will
the international community be involved?
- Where can we report? Please define some address to collect these reports, so
that Tamás can use the information to improve his migration program (and maybe
there are also possible enhancements for Firebird within LibO).

I will test with my databases, and I am also willing to test again and again
with newer versions of LibO, if asked. I am a fan of databases, and I will do
much to maintain Base as a useful tool.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #23 from rob...@familiegrosskopf.de ---
(In reply to Lionel Elie Mamane from comment #21)
> 
> Deprecation when Firebird is in good shape (cf the
> tracker bug for that), and removal at least one major distro LTS cycle after
> that.
> 
> >   --> New databases will be created with Firebird (by default?) in 6.1
> 
> _If_ the Firebird driver is in a good enough shape, which we have good hope
> it will be.
> 
> > - Why keep the old data in the file?
> >   --> Creating a new file with just Firebird data makes more sense as the
> > end user is not able to recover the data!
> 
> Yes.
> 
> > - Why do we need to get rid of HSQLDB so quickly?
> 
> We don't.

This would be the best solution. 

Changing step by step. Let us first try to get Firebird better working than
HSQLDB for a normal user. Do not deprecate HSQLDB before. Test the migration.
Migration has to save all: Tables, relations and views. Could be views will be
saved as queries, if code is to complicated. After this is working we should
set HSQLDB as deprecated.

I have seen the long time for getting Firebird to work in Base - experimental
since LO 4.2! We will need also time for a well working Firebird as non
experimental database.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #22 from Lionel Elie Mamane  ---
(In reply to robert from comment #17)

> Okay, have understand it the wrong way while reading about bugs migration
> from HSQLDB to Firebird. Only 6.1.0.0.alpha0 will automatically migrate the
> databases.

No, it will not. It will _propose_ migration, and allow continued use of
HSQLDB, for at least a few releases.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #21 from Lionel Elie Mamane  ---
(In reply to Florian Reisinger from comment #15)
> If you care to explain why
> 
> - removing a DB backend without deprication notice
> - keeping the HSQLDB data in the ODB file WITHOUT possibility to open it
> with an old version of LibreOffice
> - hushing the transition to the new database backend
> 
> is a good idea.

It is not, and will not happen. Please, there was some over-enthusiasm, things
got committed to master, they were discussed and the plan was established. Do
not take every commit to the master branch as a firm, well thought out, plan.

Let's stop excoriating this transitory situation and focus on the reasonable
plan.

> - Putting it in the 6.0 release notes is impossible - already released.
>   --> Mark it for removal in 6.1 with removal in 6.2 / 6.3

My current thought is: deprecation when Firebird is in good shape (cf the
tracker bug for that), and removal at least one major distro LTS cycle after
that.

>   --> New databases will be created with Firebird (by default?) in 6.1

_If_ the Firebird driver is in a good enough shape, which we have good hope it
will be.

> - Why keep the old data in the file?
>   --> Creating a new file with just Firebird data makes more sense as the
> end user is not able to recover the data!

Yes.

> - Why do we need to get rid of HSQLDB so quickly?

We don't.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #20 from V Stuart Foote  ---
(In reply to Florian Reisinger from comment #19)
> 
> Doing to automatically won't work as the user might not have permission to
> create a new file.
> 
> I honestly do not believe that a backup without user involvement is possible
> 
> Still looking forward to answers to #15

Removal of HSQLDB and the Firebird migration was reviewed at ESC today [1] and
backed out [2], if it can be redone near term it will instead be optional at
6.1 with just NEW Base ODF using Firebird. This evenings builds of master have
HSQLDB restored.

=-ref-=
[1]
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Libreoffice-qa-minutes-of-ESC-call-td4237769.html
[2] https://gerrit.libreoffice.org/#/c/52731/

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #19 from Florian Reisinger  ---
(In reply to jonathon from comment #18)
> If it is going to automatically convert the database, could the first step
> in the conversion process be copying the file from filename.odb to
> filename.HSQLDB.date.time.odb.
> The second step would be converting filename.odb to
> filename.firebird.date.time.odb.
> The third step would be to copy filename.firebird.date.time.odb to
> filename.odb.
> All done with no user interaction.

Doing to automatically won't work as the user might not have permission to
create a new file.

I honestly do not believe that a backup without user involvement is possible

Still looking forward to answers to #15

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #18 from jonathon  ---
If it is going to automatically convert the database, could the first step in
the conversion process be copying the file from filename.odb to
filename.HSQLDB.date.time.odb.
The second step would be converting filename.odb to
filename.firebird.date.time.odb.
The third step would be to copy filename.firebird.date.time.odb to
filename.odb.
All done with no user interaction.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #17 from rob...@familiegrosskopf.de ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #16)
> Who said ANYTHING about the migration engine being backported to a 6.0
> release?
> 
Okay, have understand it the wrong way while reading about bugs migration from
HSQLDB to Firebird. Only 6.1.0.0.alpha0 will automatically migrate the
databases.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #16 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Who said ANYTHING about the migration engine being backported to a 6.0 release?

Deprecation notice needs to have gone in to the 6.0 release notes (and probably
should have gone in to the 5.4 release notes--given the TDF Tender approval).

This change only affects master toward a 6.1.0 (RC1 ~ July 2018).

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #15 from Florian Reisinger  ---
#11
"It is up to developer to decide what is best" (non 100% quote from the linked
thread) is not always the best solution as backward compatibility takes effort.

As I am doing my master thesis "done correctly" is a very hard term in software
engineering. Ignoring that...

"In the current state, the old HSQLDB data is also kept in the odb file 
after migration. You can revert the migration by unzipping the odb 
file and overwriting the URL in content.xml in tag 
. 

Besides that, the migration will be permanent only if you save the 
document and a red circle on the save button indicates that something 
has been changed."

For how long is it planned that all data is duplicated inside the ODB file?
That's the user-unfriendly way to copy the ODB file and convert the copy.

I do not see a big discussion about the change in DB (or I was not aware of
that). I do not say we should not move to a new database, but I (even as a
developer) do not expect in END USER software to change the file format in an
incompatible way. The current changes feels like having a DOCX file in a DOC
file without viability from outside!

Moreover for people, which are not reading the mailing lists issuing a
deprication notice at least in the release before it will be removed is
necessary. I do not say that we need a perfect convertation tool or a perfect
Firebird driver. However, with so few time for feedback (especially from very
complex DBs) we won't get feedback in time.

Even Robert's DBs from the handbook are not working at the moment.

The user gain time to test the changes and adapt for migration. For end user
facing software it is important to keep the format stable. Therefore switching
from an HSQLDB from 2005 to an up to date one would be as problematic as the
change to firebird.
I do not see parallels with MySQL (or HSQLDB for that purpose) as it can be
expected from developers that such a migration is tested. This care, however,
cannot be expected from end users (which Robert and I try to protect).

Such a transition will always be painful, However doing this in a big-bang
style like this - without urgent need to remove the old DB is not
comprehend-able for me. If you care to explain why

- removing a DB backend without deprication notice
- keeping the HSQLDB data in the ODB file WITHOUT possibility to open it with
an old version of LibreOffice
- hushing the transition to the new database backend

is a good idea.

The next bit is IMHO:

- Putting it in the 6.0 release notes is impossible - already released.
  --> Mark it for removal in 6.1 with removal in 6.2 / 6.3
--> Would give us time to fix corner case bugs
  --> New databases will be created with Firebird (by default?) in 6.1
- Why keep the old data in the file?
  --> Creating a new file with just Firebird data makes more sense as the end
user is not able to recover the data!
- Why do we need to get rid of HSQLDB so quickly?
  --> Is it the last piece of Java code?
  --> Does it solve lots of problems?
--> From Robert's tests it seems that Firebird has some problems
- In the linked thread some typed are declared different in HSQLDB and Firebird
  --> Is it tested that transition even works for these types (even if the data
size only COULD be too large but isn't at the moment.
- Do we have a user friendly document, which explains the possibly needed
manual steps needed to test the success of the conversion?
  --> User can ignore that, but it might help us get to know some bugs.
. How (in theory) is it assured that the conversion is working (I also
mentioned comparing the results of queries for being equal.
--> Can this be automated (and as I said) the conversion to FireBirdDB only
succeed if (specific kinds of) queries are evaluated in exactly the same way as
before.

Thanks for considering and / or answering above statements / questions.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #14 from rob...@familiegrosskopf.de ---
Firebird has been experimental the whole time. 
Nobody should add a new feature like "Firebird not experimental - Automatic
HSQLDB-migration" during an update from 6.0.3 to 6.0.4. No depecation-note
should be made from one 6.0 to another. This updates are for bugfixes, not for
new features.

I have tried a little bit with the migration and LO 6.1.0.0.alpha0. Thanks to
Drew Jensen to try this first. Many bugs appear. Many parts won't be migrated
(views, relationships ...) Tables won't be created, if relationships are
declared in a HSQLDB-database.

The migration is very experimental!

I have have written about bugs in Base since over 7 years. Open Base-bugs I
reported are 74 at this moment. 
I have written the Base-Handbook and many users will contact me for help with
there databases.
I haven't heard anything about an automatic migration from a working HSQLDB to
an experimental Firebird-DB.

I haven't informed myself at special developer-lists and was very surprised
when Alex wrote about this problem in Global users-list and German
discuss-list.

The expected next step should be:
Firebird shouldn't be an experimental feature in 6.1
Then we will have a look for the incoming bugs. Firebird has to be a better
solution than HSQLDB. If it isn't we couldn't explain users why we should
change from one to the other. 
Next step in 6.2 could be to offer a migration.
Last step in 6.3 should be to change from HSQLDB to Firebird.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #13 from Gerhard Weydt  ---
@ 11: The deprecation notice should have appeared in the release notes for 6.0
from the very beginning. Now it's too late for many people who have already
updated and will not read the release notes again!
And the concept of migrating to Firebird has one capital flaw, as far as can be
seen at present: it supposes that all will work perfectly and without the least
error. We all know that this is wishful thinking, there has to be a possibility
to go back or have a copy of the old situation _and_ a practicable way to get
at least at the data, which the new version 6.1 of LibO does not offer. Even
then a user who encounters a problem when the migration is done cannot use his
database application, which is still bad enough.
Even for changes of much less importance it is indispensable to have a concept
for the case of problems arising. We cannot this change-over without that.
Lionel's statement, which just arrived, is therefore reassuring.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #12 from Lionel Elie Mamane  ---
(In reply to V Stuart Foote from comment #11)

> There is ESC support for the implementation (Lionel is a member)

There is ESC support for the migration, and the change of default,
but not for the timing of it. HSQLDB and Firebird are two different
systems with two different SQL syntaxes, different feature sets, etc.
People that use Base as a development platform to make their own application
need a transition period to adapt their code.

IMO, the timing of the change of default for *new* databases is still not
decided for certain. It might happen for the next release, or later.
Depends on when bugs like 104918, 116935 and 116936 are fixed. See bug
51780 for the tracking of that. We may also want to wait for bug 116936
to be fixed.

Removing HSQLDB needs _time_ from the moment Firebird-in-LibreOffice is
stable, good quality, and has - broadly speaking - feature-parity with
HSQLDB. Bugs like 116936 are blocker for that. See bug 116970 for the
tracking of that.

> rather than stretching out the migration of internal HSQLDB to Firebird
> if the migration code is ready and gets well tested, there really is no
> practical UX reason to stretch out the pain point of the DB transition.

I feel that this POV comes from a view that all SQL engines are
interchangeable, they only differ in on-disk data storage format. For users
that only use Base as a graphical GUI to do stuff, that may even be, to a
moderate to large degree, true. However, for people using Base as an
application development platform, that is very much not true.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #11 from V Stuart Foote  ---
Hate to be the lone voice of dissent here, but Tamás remains under tender from
the foundation to get the HSQLDB migration tool done correctly.

There is ESC support for the implementation (Lionel is a member) and rather
than stretching out the migration of internal HSQLDB to Firebird (that should
have happened long ago starting at bug 38811) if the migration code is ready
and gets well tested--as Tamás requested [1]--there really is no practical UX
reason to stretch out the pain point of the DB transition.

In fact there is much to be said for an ESC led effort to see this conversion
completed, diverting dev cycles where needed to get the DB and the Base UIs
finished. The project--and users--gain little by pushing it down the road with
a "transitional" period. 

Otherwise, deprecation notice for internal HSQLDB should be made now in 6.0
release notes.

=-ref-=
[1]
http://nabble.documentfoundation.org/Database-migration-in-Base-tc4237588.html

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #10 from Florian Reisinger  ---
I would let the user save a new file. I guess the awareness might be higher
that he is able to use the old file with the old LibreOffice version. Let him
store a new file for the new behavior. The old file for the new behavior would
be strange for me.

Bur I am not an UX expert, just my 2 cents!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #9 from Thomas Lendo  ---
>From a UX point of view, we should not suppose that the user is creating a
backup file manually even if we warn him by an info bar.

We should force the user 1) either to save a backup file within an
automatically opened dialog where the user can choose a file name and a
location or 2) to save the new firebird file with an identical dialog.

This user prompted solution prevents failed auto-backups and informs the user
that there is something happen.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #8 from Florian Reisinger  ---
If (as currently built in) the content of the file is changed there is no way
going back!

If (in some way) the conversion is happening in a separate file, the user at
least has the change of moving back to an older (probable insecure) release of
LibreOffice.

I guess we all agree that the currently implemented behavior is not in any way
user friendly. It - in fact - will scare users away.

However, especially if we have a release with both database drivers we can
automatically compare the result of reports. Most read-only reports will change
if executed not in the same moment.

The hardest requirement would be to try converting to a new file and checking
all reports and fail (or give a warning with the name of the reports) when the
result are not identical.

Only with such a dynamic test suite we would have a chance to make the
transition as smooth as possible,

I hope you agree to my statement that the current situation must not be
released and that the conversation must happen to a new file.

Some might complain that this is similar to introducing a new algorithm for
encrypting documents, which also break compatibility with AOO and older
versions of LibO. However the complexity of implementing / using a different
encryption function cannot be compared to switching to a different database
backend. Therefore a staged approach (marking Firebird non-experimental,
creating new ODB files with Firebird, converting old databases OPTIONALLY,
removing HSQLDB) should be spitted up to more than one maybe 3 or more
releases. Bugs will appear and we need to fix them with the fewest impact for
the user. A staged roll-out therefore is from the end user's point of view the
only real option!

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Gerhard Weydt  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

 CC||gerhard.we...@t-online.de

--- Comment #7 from Gerhard Weydt  ---
I totally agree with comment #6. I just want to point out some more problems.
Showing a warning if the migration didn't work or even before migrating is too
late, because the user has already updated LibreOffice, so he has no chance to
get at his data with that release. Surely, it is possible to do a parallel
installation, but many people will not know that or might not be able to do it
or simply give up, frustrated, and are lost for LibreOffice.
There has to be at least one release, say 6.0, where HSQLDB and Firebird run in
parallel, and informing the user that the database should be migrated to
Firebird for the future, but that he should first try it using a copy of his
database document.
Some might say that we have already had that period of parallel database
systems, but I am sure that most people will not have known that because you
could know about Firebird only if you had activated the experimental features,
or had read it somewhere, for example in Roberts Base handbook. I am using Bae
myself, with MariaDB when it's possible, but also with HSQLDB, but I haven't
yet tried Firebird, because I always heard it still was lacking functionality.
So I underline Florian's remark that the change is too quick.
But even an infobar in 6.0 when opening a database document with HSQLDB that
the database should be migrated to Firebird, because in 6.1 HSQLDB will no
longer be supported (the version nummbers only as an example) will not be
sufficient, there may be people updating from 5.4 to 6.1, they will never have
got that message.
I have no convincing proposal how to cope with this problem, yet, the only idea
I have for the moment is warning at the start of the installation describing
the problem and, if applicable, proposing to update first to the intermediate
version and test the migration before doing the second update. That's not very
comfortable.
All would be easier if someone could guarantee that the migration to Firebird
will always work, but who would be able to do that? Robert's experience shows
that we are far away from that.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #6 from Florian Reisinger  ---
@4: The file would be irreversible damaged I the conversation was not
successful?

@5: We can only get problems when automatically saving to a new location:

 - space on disc can be full
 - user could not have permissions

Therefore I would prefer prompting the user on fileopen to convert the database
and save it in a new location.

However the transition from experimental to default is too quick. We should
wait a few releases (at least one) to stabilize the new database. 

Therefore I believe HSQLDB should not be removed yet, but in the short future.
Conversation in the next release should be triggered only manually (and should
result in a new file.

Such a drastic transition would scare users away not only from Base, but from
LibreOffice. This is even more probable when no backup of a file is created and
the file is destroyed

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #5 from Lionel Elie Mamane  ---
IMO we should either:
1) eschew the need for backup altogether by _not_ overwriting the *same*
   .odb file, but saving the converted odb under a new name (e.g. one
   that we ask the user via a filepicker?)
2) do the backup unconditionally by saving the original .odb file under
   a new name

Solution "1" is probably somewhat easier.

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

--- Comment #4 from Heiko Tietze  ---
How about an infobar telling the user that migration was successful, or not?

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[Libreoffice-bugs] [Bug 116944] Firebird-migration must happen only after user consent and advise to backup data prior to migration at 6.1

[bugzilla-daemon]

https://bugs.documentfoundation.org/show_bug.cgi?id=116944

Lionel Elie Mamane  changed:

   What|Removed |Added

Summary|Firebird-migration must |Firebird-migration must
   |advise users of conversion  |happen only after user
   |and advise to backup data   |consent and advise to
   |prior to migration at 6.1   |backup data prior to
   ||migration at 6.1

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