Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 23:30 21/05/2001, David H. Adler wrote: On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote: Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then they're in for a big shock. ...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing technical books... :-) dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though... ITYM used his editing money to buy some of a new guitar :) Hey, maybe it's one of those cheapo 'made in China' jobs. Of course, if it paid for a Martin or a Lowden or something else equally lovely, then well done Mr Adler. -- Piers Cawley www.iterative-software.com
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Tue, May 22, 2001 at 08:43:39AM +0100, Piers Cawley wrote: Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: At 23:30 21/05/2001, David H. Adler wrote: On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote: Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then they're in for a big shock. ...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing technical books... :-) dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though... ITYM used his editing money to buy some of a new guitar :) Hey, maybe it's one of those cheapo 'made in China' jobs. Of course, if it paid for a Martin or a Lowden or something else equally lovely, then well done Mr Adler. Ah, I wish... The truth is somewhere in between. I got a Burns Marquee. The reason I was able to do so is that, although it's a perfectly good guitar, they weren't selling. When the price dropped by 75% (and I got informed opinions telling me it was not just a piece of junk), I couldn't resist. In fact, if one takes into account how much I saved, it actually *increases* the amount I got paid. :-) dha -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ perl -e 'print Just another P$0-r-l hacker'
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Tue, 22 May 2001, David H. Adler wrote: Hey, maybe it's one of those cheapo 'made in China' jobs. Of course, if it paid for a Martin or a Lowden or something else equally lovely, then well done Mr Adler. Ah, I wish... The truth is somewhere in between. I got a Burns Marquee. The reason I was able to do so is that, although it's a perfectly good guitar, they weren't selling. seen em .. not bad. I'd one day like a Patrick Eggle 'Berlin' right now I'm enjoying a cute little Steinberger headless .. dirt cheap these days and rather fun. :) Best of all its so small .. add in a Korg Pandora 2 personal effects/amp and you have the ultimate hotel room practice set up. -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:05:20PM +0100, Dave Cross wrote: At 13:27 20/05/2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is stealing copies of your book on line. True. But just so as we know where we all stand. I have only ever used Napster to find copies of unavailable music. You mean you actually got napster to work? That's more of an achievement than I've ever managed... -Dom
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
I object to paying 3.99 gbp (for a single), or 12.99gbp (for an album track) to just get one song. However, if I hear another track from those artists, and like it, I will probably get the full album. Then exercise your right not to buy it - then don't steal it. You don't have a divine right to something just because it is a single song. Pay for it, or don't get it.
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote: Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then they're in for a big shock. ...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing technical books... :-) dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though... -- David H. Adler - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.panix.com/~dha/ Hang on, you're a veggie, and you don't drink Guinness... why do I bother fancying you again??? - Alex Page
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
At 23:30 21/05/2001, David H. Adler wrote: On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:28:24AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote: Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then they're in for a big shock. ...and you can just imagine how much more true that is for editing technical books... :-) dha, used some of his editing money to buy a new guitar, though... ITYM used his editing money to buy some of a new guitar :) Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Perl Training in the UK http://www.iterative-software.com/training/
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
At 12:12 19/05/2001, Robin Houston wrote: On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:30:28PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote: It sounds like a good idea (must be better than having 3 editions of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, so any Safari subscribers out there with an opinion? Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://corvin.spb.ru/ Er do you _really_ want to advertise that on a list that contains people who work for O'Reilly? Dave... [currently trying to get _his_ book removed from such a repository] -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
At 01:46 20/05/2001, Simon Cozens wrote: On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 07:20:31AM -0600, Nathan Torkington wrote: Who here has written a book? Simon and Dave at least. It's not easy, is it? You're asking the wrong guy. I don't write books for money, I write them to contribute information. Don't think anyone writes technical books for money. If they do, then they're in for a big shock. Having said that tho', it _is_ nice to get at least some financial recompense for the months of next-to-no social life. This is why, unlike some people, I don't blatantly plug my book at the end of every mail. :) What. Like below Dave... [thinking for some time that it's about time for a new .sig anyway] -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
At 17:28 19/05/2001, Jonathan Stowe wrote: On Sat, 19 May 2001, Nathan Torkington wrote: Robin Houston writes: Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://corvin.spb.ru/ I'd also like to say that I'm pretty disgusted that the Perlmongers, of all people, would advocate pirating the Camel. Yeah, way to thank Larry! I'm not entirely sure that anyone was actively advocating piracy. I disagree. IMO, posting a link to site containing pirate copies of books _is_ advocating piracy. YMMV. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugData Munging with Perl http://www.manning.com/cross//plug
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
At 00:18 20/05/2001, Dean S Wilson wrote: I suppose the issue with books as PDF is that it leaves you wide open to rampant copying... A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website. Why do Manning sell their books online as pdf files? and do they plan to stop it now that rampant copying is taking place? Barry - Original Message - From: Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Sunday, May 20, 2001 9:11 AM Subject: Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it? At 00:18 20/05/2001, Dean S Wilson wrote: I suppose the issue with books as PDF is that it leaves you wide open to rampant copying... A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
At 10:14 20/05/2001, Barry Pretsell wrote: A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website. Why do Manning sell their books online as pdf files? and do they plan to stop it now that rampant copying is taking place? Two very good questions. But ones that are better addressed to Manning. I'll certainly be passing them on later today. I'll let you know what the responses are. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug
Piracy (was Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?)
On Sun, 20 May 2001, Dave Cross wrote: At 17:28 19/05/2001, Jonathan Stowe wrote: On Sat, 19 May 2001, Nathan Torkington wrote: Robin Houston writes: Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://xx.xxx.xx/ I'd also like to say that I'm pretty disgusted that the Perlmongers, of all people, would advocate pirating the Camel. Yeah, way to thank Larry! I'm not entirely sure that anyone was actively advocating piracy. I disagree. IMO, posting a link to site containing pirate copies of books _is_ advocating piracy. YMMV. I think that this is probably down to a difference in the way that we apprehend the meaning of the phrase 'advocating piracy', but on reflection I can see that it could be understood like that. There is an increasing ambiguity in peoples attitude to 'soft crime' these days, I would, say which ranges from Intellectual Property theft to buying smuggled booze and fags to paying tradesmen 'Cash in Hand' to buying Hear'Say records - because the final victim is detached from the perpetrator by a chain of consequences it easy to do this stuff with your conscience intact. I'd love to blame Thatcher for it. /J\
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sun, 20 May 2001, Barry Pretsell wrote: A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website. Why do Manning sell their books online as pdf files? and do they plan to stop it now that rampant copying is taking place? O'Reillly sell their books as HTML on cds ... 'rampant copying' of that happens too .. but I doubt it harms them much. Same as software really. Except the software idiots haven't quite got it yet. There are two numbers to juggle: The number of people who would have actually bought your product, but now don't because they have obtained a pirate copy. The other one is the number of people who wouldn't have ordinarily bought your product, but having had a pirate copy, buy a real copy next time you publish something. It only harms your business if A exceeds B by a significant anount. Most people who would have actually bought a real one .. actually buy a real one. Most dodgy copies are kept by people who wouldn't have bought one anyway. -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sun, 20 May 2001, Dave Cross wrote: At 00:18 20/05/2001, Dean S Wilson wrote: I suppose the issue with books as PDF is that it leaves you wide open to rampant copying... A problem we're currently encountering with DMP. Some dickhead in Israel thinks it's clever to distribute the PDF for free from his website. ugh .. yes .. But do you think it actually harms sales? ... ?? would any of the people who downloaded the PDF have actually bought a real copy? ... doubt it. Piracy is a difficult thing to estimate the effects of. I have in the past had a pirate copy of O'Reillys Network Bookshelf ... but a) I would not have paid for the CD in the first place and b) Iliked what I saw so much that I went on to buy a whole bookcase full of O'Reilly stuff. Its the same as the software industry who discover some high school kid with 500 ripped off playstation games and promptly claim thats 20,000 dollars of lost sales .. like the kid would have spent 20,000 dollars on games. So yeah .. try and get the site pulled .. (shouldn't be that hard) but don;t worry too much I doubt its hurting your pocket in reallity. -- Robin Szemeti Redpoint Consulting Limited Real Solutions For A Virtual World
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sat, May 19, 2001 at 09:10:02PM -0700, Paul Makepeace wrote: I'm curious what the perceived payback is on books: kudos on the one hand, benefit to humankind on the other, and then cash. How does it all stack up? The kudos is fun but unless you write something completely earth-shattering, you're quickly out of fashion. I see the cash as an incentive to get books written that might not otherwise have been written, because again, unless you're writing something earth-shattering or coming out with something new every six months or so, sales will dry up. Royalties are bonuses, they buy goodies: a holiday here, a new computer there. And soon, I expect, I'll not be getting so much in from Beg. Perl, and they'll be buying jewellery for the other half or video games. I do it for the benefit - Beg. Perl was written to help one single individual learn Perl, and if other people have learnt Perl from it, that's a bonus; the book I'm writing at the moment, I'm doing it because I want there to be a really damned good book about XS out there, and there isn't. If I'm going to write a book, it's because I *really really* want to write it, so the money is in a sense immaterial. So why don't I forego the cash and do it all under an open publication license? Well, firstly, I do: I spent rather a lot of time helping fix up the Perl documentation, and now I'm planning a bunch of books under the OPL. But if a publisher's going to throw money at me for writing something, I'm far more likely to sit down and get on with it, rather than getting bored and hacking Perl instead. Well, that's the plan, anyway. Sometimes it doesn't work like that, either. :) -- The use of COBOL cripples the mind; its teaching should, therefore, be regarded as a criminal offence. -- Edsger W. Dijkstra, SIGPLAN Notices, Volume 17, Number 5
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 11:23:05AM +0100, Robin Szemeti wrote: I have in the past had a pirate copy of O'Reillys Network Bookshelf ... but a) I would not have paid for the CD in the first place and b) Iliked what I saw so much that I went on to buy a whole bookcase full of O'Reilly stuff. I'm *sure* at some level, the publishers know this, but they'd rather not admit it. :) If you release a book as a computer file, *IT WILL GET COPIED*. Don't think they're too stupid not to realise this. But people like having nice bound paper copies of things. Having it on line just isn't the same. That's why O'Reilly publishes copies of things that *are* freely available, like the Linux Network Administrator's Guide. -- People who love sausages, respect the law, and work with IT standards shouldn't watch any of them being made. - Peter Gutmann
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 08:49:56AM +0100, Dave Cross wrote: I disagree. IMO, posting a link to site containing pirate copies of books _is_ advocating piracy. YMMV. Here is how to do it. Now *you* have a choice. Have you read A treatise on the construction of locks? -- The C Programming Language -- A language which combines the power of assembly language with the flexibility of assembly language.
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
Dave Cross [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] quoth: * *I disagree. IMO, posting a link to site containing pirate copies of books *_is_ advocating piracy. YMMV. In a world that advocates Napster, this is no different. Someone buys a copy of the book, scans it in and shares it with the world. Outrage by the author is not any different than outrage by a musical artist. There was an interesting interview with Bill Joy at the P2P conference iirc that discussed this sort of piracy and Joy specifically talked about books being the most worrisome part of this type of activity/technology. The royalties are so small that I doubt if it would make any major difference in anyones bank account for the people who buy books will still buy them and the people that don't just might go out and purchase a copy. You write a book because you think there is something you know that others might benefit from as noone gets rich in this business. Why, I think Jarkko and I went to dinner once on his royalty cheque from ORA. You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is stealing copies of your book on line. e.
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 07:27:39AM -0500, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is stealing copies of your book on line. Ah, good old piracy is theft analogy - what would we do without you? I think I'll start reloading that russian site until I've stolen all O'Reilly's copies of the Camel book - then I'll have a monopoly and can take over the world (of Perl)! Seriously, I don't advocate copyright violation, but I much prefer it to theft or high sea piracy if people are going to commit crimes. -- Niklas Nordebo -- [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- +447966251290 The day is seven hours and fifteen minutes old, and already it's crippled with the weight of my evasions, deceit, and downright lies
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Sun, May 20, 2001 at 05:15:44PM +0200, Niklas Nordebo wrote: Seriously, I don't advocate copyright violation, but I much prefer it to theft or high sea piracy if people are going to commit crimes. I always found arms trafficking far more fun. Although I supposed nowadays we should be shipping the DeCCS perl code around in .sigs rather than the perl RSA code, as the former seems to be much more successful at getting up people's noses these days. Nicholas Clark
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
At 13:27 20/05/2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is stealing copies of your book on line. True. But just so as we know where we all stand. I have only ever used Napster to find copies of unavailable music. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
I bought 3 CDs yesterday, about 32 quids worth . I downloaded 2 Napster tracks last week. I object to paying 3.99 gbp (for a single), or 12.99gbp (for an album track) to just get one song. However, if I hear another track from those artists, and like it, I will probably get the full album. I also use Napster (when I'm working somewhere with a big pipe) to get digital copies of music that I've already paid for analogue copies of. -- Robert - Original Message - From: Dave Cross [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 20 May 2001 17:05 Subject: Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it? At 13:27 20/05/2001, Elaine -HFB- Ashton wrote: You can't expect to steal music and then bitch about how someone is stealing copies of your book on line. True. But just so as we know where we all stand. I have only ever used Napster to find copies of unavailable music. Dave... -- http://www.dave.org.uk SMS: [EMAIL PROTECTED] plugAdvertise your book here. Ask me how!/plug
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:30:28PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote: It sounds like a good idea (must be better than having 3 editions of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, so any Safari subscribers out there with an opinion? Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://corvin.spb.ru/ .robin. -- God! a red nugget: a fat egg under a dog.
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
Robin Houston writes: On Fri, May 18, 2001 at 11:30:28PM +0100, Barry Pretsell wrote: It sounds like a good idea (must be better than having 3 editions of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, so any Safari subscribers out there with an opinion? Don't forget the ever-fabulous http://corvin.spb.ru/ You know, I've checked my royalty statement for the Cookbook, and nary a penny came from this Russian pirate website. The point of Safari is that you pay a very small amount of money for very convenient access, and the author gets some of it (I believe authors get a greater royalty via Safari than they do via printed books, because we don't have printing costs). When you don't pay money, whether you justify it because you already own the book, or because you're a poor student, you're screwing the authors. But they won't miss my $1. Your dollar is no different from everyone else's, and if everyone else thought the same thing, there'd be no dollars. Who here has written a book? Simon and Dave at least. It's not easy, is it? It's an exercise in MISERY. Huge numbers of lost evenings, missed family moments, and late nights. When I was writing the Perl Cookbook, I had to miss a family trip to Disneyworld and a rare talk.bizarre party in Montreal because of book deadlines. If there's nothing waiting at the end but your name on a book nobody buys because some assface in Russia offers it up for free on the web, I sure as hell wouldn't have done it. I'd have had fun with my family and friends, enjoyed those evenings, and spent a hell of a lot less time worrying about the placement of commas and the difference between which and that. So thanks for the pointer to your ever-fabulous Russian thief, but my son would really prefer that you tried Safari. Thanks, Nat
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
In message [EMAIL PROTECTED], Nathan Torkington [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: When you don't pay money, whether you justify it because you already own the book, or because you're a poor student, you're screwing the authors. But they won't miss my $1. Your dollar is no different from everyone else's, and if everyone else thought the same thing, there'd be no dollars. I don't think that's necessarily true. Dave Thomas and Andy Hunt gave away their Programming Ruby book by putting it online so you can read it without pirating it or paying for it. I know 3 people, me included, who went a bought a second copy of the book when they did that. I know people who have bought the book after reading it on the Ruby website. If I had a need for the Cookbook, I'd buy a dead tree copy whether it was freely pirated online or not -- I can't get online in the bath, or on a train, or in a car, so online copies are relatively useless. -- rob partington % [EMAIL PROTECTED] % http://lynx.browser.org/ (just 2p worth)
Re: O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
-Original Message-From: Barry Pretsell [EMAIL PROTECTED] I'm interested to know if anyone uses Safari to read O'Reilly books online. http://safari1.oreilly.com/tablhom.asp?home It sounds like a good idea (must be better than having 3 editions of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, so any Safari subscribers out there with an opinion? I've not started using it yet but I'll admit to being very tempted on a couple of occasions (When I need the cookbook and my CD's at home mostly) the only real thing putting me off is the need to be constantly on-line. I do a lot of my work on my laptop with no network connections so I don't get distracted by things like e-mail and I'd like a local copy, you could write a slow crawler to make up for this but that sorta breaks the spirit of it and I imagine Nat not being too happy with me ;) I was impressed by the Manning way of letting me download a PDF of the book, it makes my life easier since I can use it off line. On the other hand I thought Manning would have released their back catalogue in ebook as well as they have a very limited selection at the moment. I suppose the issue with books as PDF is that it leaves you wide open to rampant copying... Although you could slow crawl safari and zip 'em up. Dean -- Profanity is the one language all programmers understand. --- Anon
O'Reilly Safari - anyone use it?
I'm interested to know if anyone uses Safari to read O'Reilly books online. http://safari1.oreilly.com/tablhom.asp?home It sounds like a good idea (must be better than having 3 editions of Programming Perl) and I'm tempted to give it a go, so any Safari subscribers out there with an opinion? Barry
