[LUTE] Re: Things to play in quarantine
How can you be so certain that this is the earliest example of the Conde Claros? Best regards to everybody, Antonio On Sunday, 22 March 2020, 14:25:51 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann wrote: For some Condes Claros beginner fun, check out this duet (you can record the second part and play to it). It's also the earliest example. [1]http://gerbode.net/sources/E-SIM_simancas_archivo_general/leg_394_si mancas_vihuela_ms_1520/pdf/3_contrapunto_sobre_conde_claros.pdf The best beginner's book (I learned to play with it) is certainly the one by Hans Newsidler: [2]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_1/pdf/ [3]http://gerbode.net/sources/HNewsidler/1536_2/pdf/ The great thing is that Newsidler carefully progresses, introducing just one new aspect per piece. Also the first couple of pieces have only two voices, the third can optionally be sung (it's popular tunes everyone knew back then). Other books like Robinson's School of Music seem too difficult and unorganized for the beginner. Though Robinson is nice and the introduction helpful, it fails to create a learning curve. On 22.03.20 20:44, Sean Smith wrote: >You're right. It is long and involved and certainly has its difficult >bits. >It might be a project for someone with time on their hands to select >bits for easier sections to play. It has its parallels with Conde >Claros which went through many personal edits at the time so it would >hardly be anachronistic to edit it to one's specs. I would like to >think that there's something in there for everybody. >Sean > >On Sun, Mar 22, 2020 at 3:04 AM Jurgen Frenz ><[1][4]eye-and-ear-cont...@protonmail.com> wrote: > > if it is for easy pieces to play or re-work basic technique I found > Lynda Says quarterly advice quite useful and the higher numbers are > not so easy either: > [2][5]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/beginners > Further there's a list of tentative "grades" of difficulty of lute > pieces, not everybody feels the same as we all have different > difficulties but nice to go through > [3][6]https://www.lutesociety.org/pages/towards-lute-grades > Best wishes > JÃÃà ¼rgen > à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢ Original Message à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢à ¢ > On Sunday, March 22, 2020 5:23 AM, Sean Smith > <[4][7]lutesm...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Both faves and we're lucky to have them. > > I know you like finding hidden things, Tristan. Go to the really > long > > [Dump] on f280 in the Marsh. There's a measure missing between 114 > and > > 115. Put in something you like or steal/adapt a measure from > elsewhere. > > Now here's the fun part, record it carefully, then play it against > the > > recording with a lag of 4 measures. It's not perfect but it works > kind > > of nicely. It will certainly keep you occupied for an afternoon or > two. > > ...and it's excellent metronome practice regardless. > > Whether it was meant that way is hard to say and, depending on > whom you > > talk to, even suggesting it is probably irresponsible with a touch > of > > 'shame on you!'. There's certainly no indication. It also starts a > > little abruptly so you might add a few C and G iterations on the > front > > end. > > Sean > > > > On Sat, Mar 21, 2020 at 8:13 PM Tristan von Neumann > > <[1][5][8]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> wrote: > > > > Many of you might have more time on their hands than usual. > > So here's a list of favorite books and manuscripts to play. > > * Marsh Lute Book. Fun for weeks. > > > [2][6][9]http://gerbode.net/sources/IRL-Dm_archbishop_marshs_library/ms > .z. > > 3.2.13_marsh_lute_book/pdf/ > > * Siena Ms. - it never fails to surprise > > > [3][7][10]http://gerbode.net/sources/NL-DHgm_gemeentemuseum_den_hage/MS _ > 28. > > B.39_siena_lute_book_1590/pdf/ > > * If you want to concentrate on one piece: this one will keep you > > busy > > for a long time. > > > [4][8][11]http://gerbode.net/sources/Rippe/book_1_1552/pdf/01_fantasia_ 0 > 1.p > > df > > * he learned from the best: This book by Paladin is extremely > > charming > > and not too difficult > > [5][9][12]http://gerbode.net/sources/Paladin/Paladin_1560/pdf/ > > * in times like these... > > > [6][10][13]http://gerbode.net/sources/Valderrabano_silva_de_sirenas_154 7 > /v2/ > > pdf/040_corona_de_mas_hermosas.pdf
[LUTE] Re: looking for Simanca manuscript (vihuela)
You can find the photographs in: “A Vihuela Manuscript in the Archivo de Simancas”, The Lute, Vol. XXVI, part 1, 1986, pp. 3-17. On Friday, 17 January 2020, 12:21:26 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Does anyone have a scan of this vihuela manuscript? I'd love to have a look at it. :) T* To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Thank you so much Rainer. Best, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 10:19:16 GMT-6, Rainer wrote: For a better digital version see: http://data.onb.ac.at/rec/AC09162120 Rainer Am 10.01.2020 um 14:11 schrieb Stewart McCoy: > Dear Antonio, > > I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' > _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, > help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under > "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: > http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png > . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute > music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to > clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike > all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the > guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in > character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. > > There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could > you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin > heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as > Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky > performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) > than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in > the vihuela books. > > Best wishes, > > Stewart. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart You can find the reference and the music in page 597. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 07:16:36 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, I have been searching my house high and low for my photocopy of Barberiis' _Libro Decimo_. It must be here somewhere, but I just can't find it. However, help is at hand at Sarge Gerbode's lute site. If you search there under "facsimiles", you will find a copy of Barberiis' book: http://www.gerbode.net/facsimiles/Barberiis_intabolatura_di_lauto_v10_1549/hh1v.png . The type face for the guitar music looks to me the same as for the lute music. It is interesting that the top line is marked "canto", presumably to clarify that this line represents the first course (highest in pitch), unlike all the lute music earlier in the book. By the way, although each of the guitar pieces has the title "Fantasia", they are really more modest in character. I would be very interested to know what the music is. There is a facsimile copy of Salinas' book at the IMSLP site. Please could you tell me which page he gives the tenor of Conde Claros. (I find the Latin heavy going.) Where possible I would like to link Spanish romances such as Conde Claros to simple melodies, to be able to create a more folky performance (unaccompanied, or with simple chords strummed on the guitar) than the sophisticated arrangements for voice and vihuela which survive in the vihuela books. Best wishes, Stewart. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 10:58 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work ther
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear Stewart What a pleasant surprise! I'm ever so glad to hear from you. Thank you very much for the information - I stand corrected, and happy to do so, Is it in the same type as the lute music? Sounds very intriguing. Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 04:38:13 GMT-6, Stewart McCoy wrote: Dear Antonio, A pleasure to make contact with you via this thread. Strictly speaking there is another example of Milan's tablature, albeit for guitar, in Melchiore de Barberiis, _Libro Decimo_ (Venice: Hieronymus Scotum, 1549). Most of the book contains music for the lute in Italian lute tablature, but at the end of the book are four short pieces for the 4-course guitar. The tablature for the guitar music is the same as Luys Milan's. Best wishes, Stewart McCoy. -Original Message- From: Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 10, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Another piece for the puzzle: how about Francesco playing diferencias upon the Conde Claros tenor? Francisco Salinas mentions this in his De Musica Libri Septem (1577). Here he illustrates the music of Conde Claros and states after "Super quem tenorem ego Romae modulantem audiui coram Paulo 3. Pont. Max. Franciscum Mediolanensem, qui fuit sui temporis Citharoedorum facilé princeps, & mihi valde familiaris". By the way, we do have proof that Narváez knew well Francesco's music. Best, Antonio On Friday, 10 January 2020, 03:39:25 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: That is the "crunch" isn't it. The two da Milano books (one in italian, one in neapolitan tablature, and the ONLY extant one) and El Maestro, appearing almost simultaneously, also here with a completely new and exclusive paradigm. None of which caught on mysteriously. After all they were printed books, which should have had some substantial circulation one would think. Someone should definitely look into this... G. PS. Naples was not in Aragonese hands in this epoch, and Milán could not very probably have visited/influenced/been influenced? Yo no sé... G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Oops ... Sorry, only the Libro secondo is in Neapolitan tablature. My mistake. Best wishes Antonio P.S. According to Thurston Dart, the best advice a student could receive was "Verify your references". We are still learning. On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Sorry to say, Naples was not in Valencian hands (if that is what you mean) and neither was Neapolitan tablature. The sources by da Milano are not manuscript, but two printed books published in 1536, the same year as Casteliono and the issuing forth of El Maestro: the Intavolatura de viola o vero lauto ... Libro primo della fortuna and the Intavolatura de viola o vero lauto ... Libro secondo della fortuna. The titles are intriguing, and it would be very tempting to identify the viola they mentions as a vihuela. I would agree to this hypothesis. Best wishes Antonio On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
Dear G. C. As I stated before, it would be foolish to deny that Milán was influenced by Italian culture; what I do not find is evidence of any possible influence by the Italian lutenists before him. I, for one, would welcome any information about it, but I'm still waiting to be enlightened. As far as I know, with the exception of Dalza's, pavans "alla venetiana" and "alla ferrarese" which are quite different from Milan's, there is no Italian lute source of pavans before 1536 (Attaingnant does have some, but so far nobody here has proposed a French influence). An interesting point would be that, according to Milán, his pavans resemble those played in Italy (parecen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen). Valid questions would then be: what were his sources? Manuscripts? Did he listen to them? I have to admit this is a big lacuna in our knowledge of the matter, but so far we do not have any satisfactory answers: speculation may contribute to our peace of! mind, but not to our knowledge. Valencian tablature should be called, in fact, Milan's tablature: there are no other examples of it. To me this is another proof of Milán's unique condition (an interesting antecedent would be the Marineo Siculo fragment but that is, too, one of a kind). It could nevertheless be argued that Milán used rhytmic flags above each cipher, as can be found in Petrucci's previous publications (and unlike Casteliono in 1536 and later vihuelists), but that is all I can find in common. Since I am not Spanish, I feel I can hardly be found guilty of championing any issue of honour or ownership; I just try to judge from what available evidence can tell us and form my own criteria from it. I don't care where I step as long as there is a sound basis to justify where I place my feet. Best wishes Antonio P.S. What does "italianate music in a general sense" mean in the context of Milán´s pieces? On Thursday, 9 January 2020, 15:23:56 GMT-6, G. C. wrote: I meant to say: "An improvement to neapolitan tab" (Which was in Valencian hands at the time) (Also only one remaining ms. and de Milano at that!) It's fascinating to think of what influences were at work there.) G. On Thu, Jan 9, 2020 at 8:23 PM G. C. <[1]kalei...@gmail.com> wrote: Pavanas in italian style, songs in italian, italianate music in a general sense, etc. etc. I don't understand this tip-toeing around the fact that Milan was heavily influenced by Italian art and (lutenist) culture, as many were around this time. And also his surname, which I cannot see has satisfyingly been explained yet. Not to speak about the fascinating Valencian tablature, an improvement (in my view) to italian tab which just didn't catch on. Are we afraid of steping on some misguided Spanish sense of honour and ownership for one of the early vihuelists here? Just intrigued G. -- To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:kalei...@gmail.com 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name - Postludium to the CODA
s.roe...@t-online.de> wrote: à �à �à � Dear Antonio, please rest assured, no more evidence is demanded. Don Luis Milan was and is his name, and he's not from Milano. They're making fun of it, or so is my impression. Mathias __ Gesendet mit der [1]Telekom Mail App --- Original-Nachricht --- Von: Jurgen Frenz Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Datum: 06.01.2020, 15:17 Uhr An: Antonio Corona Cc: [4][5][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Here is the collection of names for SeÃÆ Ã �or Luys from the online Petrucci library, for what it's worth: ÃÆà � à � Alternative Names/Transliterations: MillÃÆ Ã �n, Luys Milan, Luis de MilÃÆ Ã �n, LluÃÆs del MilÃÆ ÃÆà � à � Name in Other Languages: Luis de MilÃÆ Ã �n, ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà �ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà �ÃÆà � à �ÃÆà � à �, LluÃÆs del MilÃÆ , ÃÆÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ Ã �, ÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ ÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ Ã �, ÃÆÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã � ÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ ÃÆÃÆÃÆÃÆ Ã �ÃÆ ÃÆà � à � Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de MilÃÆ Ã �n, LluÃÆs MilÃÆ , Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis MilÃÆ , LluÃÆs Mila, LluÃÆs de MilÃÆ , Luys MilÃÆ Ã �n -- "Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there." JalÃÆl ad-DÃÆ Ã �n Muhammad Rumi ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà � Original Message ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà �ÃÆà � On Monday, January 6, 2020 6:41 AM, Antonio Corona <[2][5][6][6]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan BartolomÃÆ Ã � de Villalba y EstaÃÆ Ã �a, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona [3][6][7][7]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu wrote: Dear friends, Luis MilÃÆ Ã �n, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis MilÃÆ Ã �n, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis MilÃÆ Ã �n, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan FernÃÆ Ã �ndez de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim LÃÆ Ã �dtke [4][7][8][8]jo.lued...@t-online.de wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan ÃÆà � à � I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for MilÃÆ Ã �n, de MilÃÆ Ã �n or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at [5][8][9][9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [9][10][10]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_ app_an droi d_sendmail_footer 2. mailto:[10][11][11]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:[11][12][12]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:[12][13][13]jo.lued...@t-online.de 5. [13][14][14]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [15][15]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app _andro id_sendmail_footer 2. [16][16]http://turovsky.org/ 3. mailto:[17][17]mathias.roe...@t-online.de 4. mailto:[18][18]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:[19][19]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 6. mailto:[20][20]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:[21][21]jo.lued...@t-online.de 8. [22][22]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 9. [23][23]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app _andro id_sendmail_footer 10. mailto:[24][24]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 11. mailto:[25][25]abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 12. mailto:[26][26]jo.lued...@t-online.de 13. [27][27]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [28]https://kommunikationsdienste.t-online.de/redirects/email_app_andro id_sendmail_footer 2. [29]mailto:r.turov...@gmail.com 3. [30]http://turovsky.org/ 4. [31]mailto:mathias.roe...@t-online.de 5. [32]mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. [33]mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 7. [34]mailto:abcor...@mail.cs.dartmouth.edu 8. [35]mailto:jo.lued...@t-online.de 9. [36]http://www.cs.dartmouth.
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear Ron I don't believe Milán set the standard for later vihuelists, at least for those whose works we know. His works, as you rightly pointed out are quite idiosyncratic and unlike those which followed. On the other hand you may be right about the term Fantasia. This is what Milán has to say about it: Qualquiera obra deste libro de qualquier tono que sea: se intitula fantasia: a respecto que solo procede de la fantasia y industria del auctor que la hizo. Regarding Díaz Romano, the name may seem a fairly unambigous reference except from the fact that he hailed from Guadalupe, in Extremadura. He set his printing press in 1530 at Valencia succeding Cristóbal Cofman and in that year he published a Glosa by Alonso de Cervantes and later used the printer`s mark of Juan Joffre, as well as his type and presses. Thereafter he published quite a number of books, most of them in Spanish until 1541 (except books such as Jaume Roig's Llibre de consells, 1531, the Breviarum Valentinum, 1533 or the Furs of Valencia, 1539- none in Italian) when he returned to Guadalupe. One of the main influences for printers, and specially printers of musical treatises -I suspect not being a specialist in the subject- came from Germany, as may be gathered from printers of incunabula such as the Cuatro compañeros alemanes (Domingo Marcos Durán, Lux Bella, 1492) and Petrum Haguenbach & Leonardus Hutz alemanes (Guillermo de Podio, Ars Musicorum, 1495); early Sixteenth-Century books, such as Johan Rosebach aleman (Francisco Tovar, Libro de musica practica, 1510) and Fadrique aleman de Basilea (Gonzalo Martínez de Bizcargui, Arte de canto llano, 1515; Intonaciones nuevamente corregidas, 1515); or even printers of non musical books such as Johannem gherlinc alamanum (Pro condendis orationibus, 1468) - I quote from the colophons where they all call themselves Germans. There is even a privilege from the Catholic Monarchs dated in 1477 in favour of a Teodorico aleman. A tell tell sign in the case of Milán is the use of Gothic type instead of the Roman one used ! in five of the later vihuela books (with the exception of Narváez's Seys libros del delphin). Best wishes Antonio On Tuesday, 7 January 2020, 05:15:49 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: Dear Antonio: Thank you for this clarification. While I appreciate Milan and his status as a pioneer in documenting Spanish music and courtly custom—and setting a standard for the later viheula prints—it seems to me (and others) that he was strongly influenced by trends emerging from Italy. I don't know this for certain but I suspect Milan was among the first to use of the term Fantasia to describe his instrumental excogitations, since Recercar was the preferred term in the earlier Italian lute books. One last thing regarding surnames: It is interesting to note that El Maestro was published by Francisco Díaz Romano, a fairly unambiguous reference. Best wishes, RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 7:21 PM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name Dear Ron I`m sorry if my position is unclear. It would be foolish to claim that Milan was unaware of the cultural currents prevalent at the time. He moved in one of the most refined courts of the time and surely was influenced -one way or another- by them. For example, the poetic trends in Spain at the time, as López Alemany puts forward, can be clearly detected in Milán by his use of the Italian sonnets by Petrarch and Sannazaro. This influence can also be found later in Mudarra's own book. Furthermore, the first evidence of the use of the Italian sonnet as a means for poetic expression in Spanish date from some time before, according to Juan Boscán, who was prompred by a conversation with Andrea Navaggiero in 1526 to try his hand at writing Spanish endecasyllabic poetry. Boscán published his first book of such verse in 1543 and guess what: sure enough, later on Milán included more that 40 sonnets in Spanish in El Cortesano. He was indeed aware and influenced of the cultural t! rends of his time. Now, I would be wary of confusing this influence with the direct use of Italian models for his own compositions. While there is a resemblance in the harmonic pattern (if I may anachronistically call it that way) between Verdelot and Miláns versions of Maddona, I think that Milán did not derive his own from any of the Verdelot's books; the evidence may be flimsy, but there is a textual difference between both versions that suggets that Milán drew his text from another source: "et voi non me´l credete " (Verdelot) as opposed to "et voi non mi credete" (Milán). I am aware that this may be subjet to criticism, bu
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
The point is: where did they get them from? On Monday, 6 January 2020, 08:22:47 GMT-6, Jurgen Frenz wrote: Here is the collection of names for Señor Luys from the online Petrucci library, for what it's worth: ＝ Alternative Names/Transliterations: Millán, Luys Milan, Luis de Milán, Lluís del Milà ＝ Name in Other Languages: Luis de Milán, ルイス・デ・ミラン, Lluís del Milà, Милан, Луис де, لويس دي ميلان ＝ Aliases: Luis de Milan, Luys de Milan, Luys de Milán, Lluís Milà, Lluis Mila, Luis Milan, Lluis Milà, Lluís Mila, Lluís de Milà, Luys Milán -- “Close your eyes. Fall in love. Stay there.” Jalāl ad-Dīn Muhammad Rumi To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
very same position: "López Alemany’s project aims to provide a comprehensive explanation of the cultural success of Italian meters in Spanish Renaissance poetry within the broader context of court performances. The study of this “new poetry,” as contemporaries labeled it, cannot be approached merely as a change of meters, but as part of a larger phenomenon. A paradigmatic change that resulted from the emergence of the early modern court culture in Spain, the particularities of the political context of the Habsburg Empire, and the renovation and repurposing of traditional Spanish poetry. The early modern vihuelists – musicians who played the vihuela, a Spanish stringed instrument – selected, modified, and musicalized many of those poems. They also modeled and wrote instructions on how to perform them within the aulic context, serving as active catalysts in the definition of the modern courtier and the role of poetry in the early modern period." RA ______ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, January 6, 2020 5:41 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Milan's name A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona wrote: Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
A couple more: Juan Timoneda, Rosas de romances (1573): Don Luys Milan Bartolomé de Villalba y Estaña, El pelegrino curioso ... (1577): Don Luys Milan On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 19:24:07 GMT-6, Antonio Corona wrote: Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Milan's name
Dear friends, Luis Milán, Libro de motes (1535): Don Luys Milan Luis Milán, El Maestro (1535-36): Luys Milan Luis Milán, El cortesano (1561): Don Luys Milan Juan Fernández de Heredia, Las obras ... (1562): Don Luys Milan Gaspar Gil Polo, Diana enamorada (1564): Don Luys Milan Best wishes, Antonio On Sunday, 5 January 2020, 14:26:06 GMT-6, Joachim Lüdtke wrote: In El Cortesano it's Don Luys Milan … I am not a home for the next few days, but if anyone has the Facsimile of El Maestro published by the Sociedad de la Vihuela a few years ago, he or she could look into the commentary and see if there is any evidence mentioned for Milán, de Milán or similar. Best Joachim To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Very simple: he is not Luis de Milán. It is certainly outrageous. On the other hand, if you seriously want to learn more about the biography of Milán you can read: Francesc Villanueva Serrano,“Poemas inéditos del vihuelista y escritor Luis Milán y nuevas consideraciones sobre su identidad: el ms. 2050 de la Biblioteca de Catalunya”, Anuario Musical, 66, 2011, pp. 61-118. On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 13:23:47 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann wrote: May I just add something outrageous: This guy is literally called "Milán". How sure are we that he's not of Italian origin? To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Dear Ron, Thank you for your kind words. Again, I think we should be wary of speculations where the known facts points in another direction. While there is indeed a possibility of Italian influence in Milán, especially considering that the viceroy of Valencia was Ferdinand of Aragón, Duke of Calabria, I still believe that putting together Milán and Verdelot is pushing the evidence too far merely on the basis of a vague possibility (which I cannot share -the dates of their publications suggest otherwise); on the other hand, we have no way of knowing how much influence Castiglione's book might have had on Milán: at least there is none to be found in his own Cortesano. In my view all the arguments in favour of an Italian direct musical influence on Milán remain purely speculative. I cannot give credence to them. On the other hand, resorting to the contents of Valderrábano and Fuenllana is, again, misleading. Both vihuelists belong to a later phase and school (I call it Castilian as opposed to the earlier Valencian) and should not be used as a basis for comparison. The mere fact that both included a large amount of intabulations as opposed to the contents of El Maestro -where there are none-, not to mention the altogether different style of their fantasias, as well as the fact that both Valderrábano and Fuenllana were professional musicians at the service of nobility, whereas Milán was an amateur (probably a member of the lesser nobility as suggested by the "Don"), their "nationality": Castilian versus Valencian, and even the type of tablature they used should put us on our guard against a direct comparison and therefore considering them on the same category. I´m afraid that I shall need more solid evidence to convince me that Milan used the music of Verdelot (or any of the other great composers intabulated by later vihuelists) as a model or otherwise for his own music. As it stands now, I must stress it again, such a suggestion is firmly rooted on speculation and nothing more. Best wishes, Antonio On Saturday, 4 January 2020, 09:19:07 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: Thanks, Antonio. I must say it is heartwarming to know you are such a champion for the music of Milan. I appreciate his role as a pioneer in Spanish instrumental music and as an advocate of the viheula and its significance in courtly life. But I don't think it is much of a speculation to say that he was influenced by Italian examples, including Verdelot's madrigals and Castiglione's much earlier example of a guide to courtly custom. I think if you'll examine the large amount of intabulated polyphony found in the books of Fuenllana (1552) and Valderrabano (1547), both of which contain several intabulations of music by Verdelot, as well as Arcadelt, Compere, Gombert, Josquin, Mouton, Sermisy and Willaert, you must admit there is a chance Milan had access to examples for his instrumental settings. RA __ From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Saturday, January 4, 2020 9:21 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone? Oops ... a mistake. In the paragraph wich reads: Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535). Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Oops ... a mistake. In the paragraph wich reads: Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, was published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. The part which states "in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began." should be ignored (the correct date is 1535). Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Dear Ron, I am afraid I will have to disagree with you too. I cannot consider Milán as an anthologizer: I am not prepared take the leap of faith it requires to consider him so. When Milán borrowed a tune he acknowledged it: "Esta pauana que se sigue la sonada della se hizo en Ytalia y canta con ella vna letra que dize qua la bella franceschina la compostura que va sobrella es mia y es del otauo tono". It is true that the author of Maddona per voi ardo is unknown, but we might safely place him it in the same italianate poetic tendency that the early vihuelists (Milán and Mudarra) favoured. Both vihuelists set to music texts by Petrarch and Sannazaro, endecasillabic poetry -as Madoona per voi ardo was too- that was coming into fashion in Spain at the time (authors such as Garcilaso or Boscan took it up later in Spanish). I would find it easier to believe that the text might have enjoyed some circulation than to find any link between Milán and Verdelot (if there is one please tell me) other than the fact that they both used the same text. Furthermore, the Intavolatura de li madrigali was published in Venice, with Scotto's printer mark, in 1536, that is, one year after the work on publishing El Maestro had begun; Il primo libro de Madrigali, for four voices was published in 1537, again by Scotto (the "Nouamente stampato" in the Cantus title-page dos not necessarily mean "pr! inted again" - it can also be read as "newly printed"). Both books contain, of course, the Maddona per voi ardo. On the other hand, if we are to credit Milán's words, he never received a formal instruction in music: "siempre he sido tan inclinado a la musica/que puedo afirmar y dezir: que nunca tuue otro maestro sino a ella misma". This might be an exageration, but sometimes his counterpoint lends some credence to this statement. We may speculate about the practice of borrowing but to me it is clear that when Milán used material upon which to compose he stated so plainly. There is however a point that is not subject to doubt: the influence (or rather the lack of it) of Castiglione upon Milán's Cortesano. This influence is limited to the fact that when he watched some ladies hold the book, he desired to be held as well in those lovely hands: "Hablandome con ciertas damas de Valencia: que tenian entre manos el Cortesano del conde Balthasar Castillon: Dixeron que me parescia del. Yo dixe. Mas querria ser vos conde, que no don Luys Milan: por estar en essas manos, donde yo querria estar. Respondieron las damas. Pues hazed vos vn otro: para que allegueys a veros en las manos que tanto os han dado de mano." Milán`s El Cortesano is an account of his life at the viceregal court of the Duke of Calabria and Germaine de Foix at Valencia: it has little in common with Casteglione's work which, incidentally, wa! s published in a Spanish translation by Juan Boscán in 1534 - the same year in which the work for publishing El Maestro began. We do not know at what time Milan might have learned of it, but his Cortesano was published in 1561, a long time after. I cannot help but remembering Diana Poulton's words about El Cortesano: "It is often stated that it is an imitation of Castiglione's work ... by those who have not read it". Best wishes, Antonio On Friday, 3 January 2020, 08:28:22 GMT-6, Ron Andrico wrote: Dear Antonio: I find this discussion intriguing. While Milan was certainly a capable (if idiosyncratic) composer, I would not discount the notion that his published music may have at least been inspired by the work of others. In fact, Milan did borrow heavily from Baldassare Castiglione’s Il Cortegiano (1528), and Verdelot's Il primo libro de madrigali (undated) that includes Madonna per voi ardo (XXI) may have been published and available as early as Castiglione's book. In the sixteenth century, everyone who received instruction in music was taught the rules of composing. And while today we tend to measure a composer by the looming 19th-century standard of the towering artist, there was a great deal of borrowing as a matter of course in the 16th century. An anthologizer like Milan could very well have put his name on his own arrangement of a popular villancico that circulated as an unharmonized melody, or he might have composed his own unique setting that showed off his dexterity with the many running quavers, an aspect we enjoy today. In the 16th century either form would have been attributed solely to Milan because it was in his published book. I would not dismiss the idea that Milan, who was proud of his cosmopolitan lifestyle, may have borrowed music from here and there and put his stamp on it. RA From: lute-...@new-old-mail.cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Antonio Corona Sent: Friday, January 3, 2020 2:35 AM To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Subje
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Dear Dmitry I'm afraid I shall have to differ on this point. Such a speculation implies a number of uncertain variables that makes it, in my opinion, untenable. Milan showed himself a competent composer in his other songs: I see no reason to brush this fact aside and look elsewhere. Best wishes Antonio On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 19:18:06 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: Dear Antonio, I was also thinking of some musical similarities between Verdelot's madrigal "Madonna per voi ardo" and Milan's piece. They are admittedly too vague to suggest that Milan directly used it as a model, but perhaps as a starting point, or there was some other version of the song that they both heard. But I think they are enough to at least speculate that he had some existing Italian setting in mind when composing his own. Dmitry On 1/2/2020 7:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > Dear Dmitry > > You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by > Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music. > > Cheers > Antonio > > > > > > > > On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev > wrote: > > > > > > Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :) > > On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: >> Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per >> voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan? >> >> Cheers, >> Dmitry >> >> On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: >> >>> You would do well not to assume that I would state something without >>> basis. >>> >>> About authorship: >>> >>> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] >>> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he >>> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia >>> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su >>> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me >>> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues >>> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. >>> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran >>> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria >>> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion. >>> >>> About the meaning of "componer": >>> >>> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en >>> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y >>> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras >>> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada >>> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia. >>> >>> About the villancicos: >>> >>> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y >>> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano >>> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian >>> villancicos]. >>> >>> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y >>> en portugues /y en ytaliano. >>> >>> Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y >>> portugues y sonetos en ytaliano. >>> >>> Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun >>> esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta. >>> >>> >>> Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read El cortesano >>> (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for >>> singing and playing his own works and not those of somebody else, as >>> well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan >>> Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, >>> assi temporales como espirituales (1562). >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption? >>> >>> >>> :) >>> >>> >>> On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote: >>>> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán >>>> >>>> Cheers >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>>
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Dear Dmitry You have a point there: as a matter of fact Milan did set to music poetry by Petrarch and Sannazaro, but to his music. Cheers Antonio On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 14:24:08 GMT-6, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: Ah, sorry, should have read more carefully about sonadas :) On 1/2/2020 2:51 PM, Dmitry Medvedev wrote: > Fair enough, but should we then assume that, for example, "Madonna per > voi ardo", both text and music, were written by Luis Milan? > > Cheers, > Dmitry > > On 1/2/2020 1:48 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > >> You would do well not to assume that I would state something without >> basis. >> >> About authorship: >> >> Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] >> Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he >> me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia >> sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su >> valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me >> tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues >> seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. >> Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran >> que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria >> que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion. >> >> About the meaning of "componer": >> >> Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en >> su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y >> oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras >> son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada >> dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia. >> >> About the villancicos: >> >> Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y >> tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano >> y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian >> villancicos]. >> >> Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y >> en portugues /y en ytaliano. >> >> Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y >> portugues y sonetos en ytaliano. >> >> Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun >> esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta. >> >> >> Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read El cortesano >> (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for >> singing and playing his own works and not those of somebody else, as >> well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan >> Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, >> assi temporales como espirituales (1562). >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> >> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann >> wrote: >> >> >> >> >> >> Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption? >> >> >> :) >> >> >> On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote: >>> All the music in El Maestro is by Milán >>> >>> Cheers >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann >>> wrote: >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> >>> Are you sure? >>> >>> Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos? >>> >>> >>> Happy New Year, >>> >>> T* >>> >>> >>> On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote: >>>> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself. >>>> >>>> Happy New Year to all, >>>> Antonio >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. >>>> Gerbode, M.D. wrote: >>>> >>>> Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37 >>>> [1]here. >>>> --Sarge >>>> -- >>>> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net) >>>> 11132 Dell Ave >>>> Forestville, CA 95436-9491 >>>> Home phone: 707-820-1759 >>>> Website: [3]http://www.gerbode.net >>>> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." >>>> >>>> -- >>>> >>>> References >>>> >>>> 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/ >>>> 2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net >>>> 3. http://www.gerbode.net/ >>>> >>>> >>>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>> >>>> >> > >
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
You would do well not to assume that I would state something without basis. About authorship: Libro de musica de vihuela de mano. Intitulado El Maestro [...] Compuesto por don Luys Milan. [...] Y siguiendo mi inclinacion / he me hallado vn libro hecho de muchas obras: que de la vihuela tenia sacadas y escritas [...] si yo solo tuuiese este libro perderia su valor: pues el dexaria e hazer el prouecho que puede: Y si el me tuuiese para que ninguno pudiesse gozar del/p[er]deria yo el mio/pues seria ingrato a quien me dio saber para hazerlo. [...] El qual [i.e. Milán] muy affectdamente ruega a toso los que por su libro passaran que no juzguen sus obras hasta que sean tañidas como cada vno querria que sus obras lo fuessen: y tañidas en su perficion. About the meaning of "componer": Estas seys fantasias que se siguen como arriba hos dixe parescen en su ayre y compostura a las mesmas pauanas que en Ytalia se tañen: y oues en todo remedan a ellas digamos les pauanas. las quatro primeras son inuentadas por mi. las dos que se despues se siguen la sonada dellas se hizo en Ytalia: y la compostura sobre la sonada dellas es mia. About the villancicos: Este que agora se sigue es el otauo quaderno de musica para cantar y tañer [...] En el qual hallareys villancicos y sonadas en castellano y en portugues y en ytaliano. [i.e. not Portuguese or Italian villancicos]. Finalmente haueys hallado musica para cantar y tañer en castellano y en portugues /y en ytaliano. Esta musica que agora se sigue son villancicos en castellano y portugues y sonetos en ytaliano. Aqui empieçan los villancicos en portugues: y este que se sigue segun esta sonado el cantor pude hazer garganta. Furthermore, you would find it enlightening to read El cortesano (1561) by Milan himself, where he displays openly his proclivity for singing and playing his own works and not those of somebody else, as well as the poetic interchanges between the vihuelist and Juan Fernández de Heredia in Las obras de don Ioan Fernandez de Heredia, assi temporales como espirituales (1562). On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 06:14:39 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Says he himself? Or what is the reason for this assumption? :) On 02.01.20 13:03, Antonio Corona wrote: > All the music in El Maestro is by Milán > > Cheers > > > > > > > On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann > wrote: > > > > > > Are you sure? > > Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos? > > > Happy New Year, > > T* > > > On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote: >> Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself. >> >> Happy New Year to all, >> Antonio >> >> >> >> On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. >> wrote: >> >> Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37 >> [1]here. >> --Sarge >> -- >> Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net) >> 11132 Dell Ave >> Forestville, CA 95436-9491 >> Home phone: 707-820-1759 >> Website: [3]http://www.gerbode.net >> "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." >> >> -- >> >> References >> >> 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/ >> 2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net >> 3. http://www.gerbode.net/ >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
All the music in El Maestro is by Milán Cheers On Thursday, 2 January 2020, 05:54:12 GMT-6, Tristan von Neumann wrote: Are you sure? Aren't those just Milan's versions of the villancicos? Happy New Year, T* On 02.01.20 11:21, Antonio Corona wrote: > Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself. > > Happy New Year to all, > Antonio > > > > On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. > wrote: > > Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37 > [1]here. > --Sarge > -- > Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net) > 11132 Dell Ave > Forestville, CA 95436-9491 > Home phone: 707-820-1759 > Website: [3]http://www.gerbode.net > "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." > > -- > > References > > 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/ > 2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net > 3. http://www.gerbode.net/ > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[LUTE] Re: Portuguese Lute Music anyone?
Not quite: they are villancicos in Portuguese by Milan himself. Happy New Year to all, Antonio On Wednesday, 1 January 2020, 00:52:50 GMT-6, Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. wrote: Luis Milan El Maestro has 3 Portuguese villancicos, #s 34 to 37 [1]here. --Sarge -- Frank A. Gerbode, M.D. ([2]sa...@gerbode.net) 11132 Dell Ave Forestville, CA 95436-9491 Home phone: 707-820-1759 Website: [3]http://www.gerbode.net "The map may not be the territory, but it's all we've got." -- References 1. http://gerbode.net/sources/Milan_el_maestro_1535/songs/ 2. mailto:sa...@gerbode.net 3. http://www.gerbode.net/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: De Visee
Sor's words: Never in my life have I heard a guitarist whose playing was supportable, if he played with the nails. The nails can produce but very few gradations in the quality of the sound: the piano passages can never be singing, nor the fortes sufficiently full. Their performance is, to mine, what the harpsichord was in comparison to the pianoforteâthe piano passages were always jingling, and, in the fortes, the noise of the keys predominated over the sound of the wires. It is necessary that the performance of Mr. Aguado should have so many excellent qualities as it possesses, to excuse his employment of the nails ; and he himself would have condemned the use of them if he had not attained such a degree of agility, nor found himself beyond the time of life in which we are able to contend against the bend of the fingers acquired by a long habitude. Best wishes, Antonio __ From: George Torres To: Roman Turovsky Cc: magnus andersson ; Martyn Hodgson ; Lute List ; Monica Hall Sent: Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:45 Subject: [LUTE] Re: De Visee Sor reportedly used a nail on his thumb, for special effect, after meeting Aguado, who did play with nails. > On May 8, 2019, at 10:00 AM, Roman Turovsky <[1]r.turov...@gmail.com> wrote: > > Fernando Sor. > RT > > > On 5/8/2019 9:35 AM, magnus andersson wrote: >>Do we have any evidence of any historical guitar or theorbo player who >>explicitly played without fingernails? >> >>[1]Skickat frÃÃà ¥n Yahoo Mail fÃÃà ¶r iPhone >> >>Den onsdag, maj 8, 2019, 3:20 em, skrev Martyn Hodgson >><[2]hodgsonmar...@cs.dartmouth.edu>: >> >> Hear! hear!. >> >> And just because some theorbo players used nails by no means that De >> >> Visee did. This is, of course, how modern myths start >> >> Martyn >> >> On Wednesday, 8 May 2019, 11:09:58 BST, Monica Hall >> >> <[2][3]mjlh...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> >> Corbetta didn't have to pay his musicians out of his own pocket - >> >> that's just another myth. The relevant source states that >> >> Every foreign musician who performed at court in Turin was given 500 >> >> Thlr. and Madame Royale wished to show her generosity by not >> >> withholding anything [from Signor Corbetta]. >> >> Madame Royale was the mother of Victor Amadeus, the ruler of Savoy at >> >> the time when Corbetta visited the town to perform. >> >> We don't actually know whether De Visee played with his nails. >> >> Monica >> >> > On 07 May 2019 at 22:20 magnus andersson >> >> <[1][3][4]maan7...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> >> > >> >> > >> >> >Dear collective wisdom, >> >> >From what I have understood, it seems like manicure has been >> >> around >> >> >since at least 3200 BC, so I assume players like Piccinini, >> >> Corbetta >> >> >(who we know had >> >> >to cancel one of his concerts due to a broken nail- and still >>pay >> >> his >> >> >fellow musicians from his own pocket!) and perhaps de VisÃà à ©e >>had >> >> found >> >> >a way for them to get it to work without shredding and tearing >> >> their >> >> >strings apart constantly, and - to quote Piccinini: >> >> > >> >> >"the one, and very important [thing] is to play neatly, and >> >> cleanly; In >> >> >the manner that all small touches of the string may be schietto, >> >> like >> >> >pearl[s]" >> >> >/Magnus >> >> > >> >> >On Tuesday, May 7, 2019, 10:45:44 PM GMT+2, John Mardinly >> >> ><[2][4][5]john.mardi...@asu.edu> wrote: >> >> > Pure speculation. Where are the facts? Can anyone document >>good >> >> nail >> >> > polishing techniques that may have been used centuries ago? I >> >> would >> >> > love to see it. Techniques used to polish things from >>telescope >> >> >lenses >> >> > and mirrors to razors would not work well on fingernails. The >> >> chamois >> >> > stropping technique used by Segovia because there was not much >> >> better >> >> > in the mid 20th Century would be deemed laughable today among >> >> those >> >> >who >> >> > play with nails. >> >> > A. John Mardinly, Ph.D.
[LUTE] Re: Saturday morning quotes - Lachrimae
__ Dear Ron, Tears started to fall before Dowland published "Flow my tears". Have a look at "Come heavy sleep", published in the First Book of 1697. Best Antonio P.S. Of course I'm aware that the manuscript versions of the solo piece antedate the First Book. From: Ron Andrico To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Saturday, 1 September 2018, 7:49 Subject: [LUTE] Saturday morning quotes - Lachrimae We have posted our Saturday morning quotes, continuing our series on Lachrimae with a discussion of the source. [1][1]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4kM Ron & Donna -- References 1. [2]https://wp.me/p15OyV-4kM To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4kM 2. https://wp.me/p15OyV-4kM 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2
__ From: Sean Smith To: lute Sent: Sunday, 26 August 2018, 12:41 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Nigel's Francesco vol 2 Dear Sean Don`t worry, Don Quijote de la Mancha couldn't hear a difference either, back in 1615. When he listened to Sanson Carrasco playing in a forest he told Sancho: Pero escucha, que a lo que parece templando esta vn laud, o viguela, y segun escupe, y se desembaraça el pecho, deue prepararse para cantar algo. Best. Antonio If we cannot hear the differences between the two instruments from a recorded performance, what conclusions should we draw? Is the difference more apparent when we are in the same room? Should we suspect they have been mixed (deliberately? inadvertently?) to make them more similar? Sean -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod
Dear Tristan You ask us to speak up, so I shall: In my opinion all you propose is wishfull listening, and nothing else. Therefore I cannot support your ideas. Sorry, but you asked, and I'm not afraid to answer. From my end this is the end of discussion and I shall not make any further comments or reply (this is geting boresome). Antonio __ From: Tristan von Neumann To: lutelist Net Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 9:08 Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod Why are the only people discussing do not use any real arguments, instead those from the eristics bin? So, officially I ask the list: Does anyone of you support anything I say? There are statistics in soundcloud, so I know not just two people are playing the tracks. Don't be afraid to speak up. It is for those people I post this, everyone else who disagrees please ignore me or at least bring up some other argument than the logically flawed "there is no pink unicorn because no one has ever shown one", or worse: "If it were true, why has no one written about it already?", or purely formal complaints about a post in a mailing list (!). This is not a scientific magazine. Am 10.08.2018 um 15:24 schrieb Martyn Hodgson: >Many months ago I decided to flag Tristan von Neumann's emails as >spam. He appeared impervious to reasoned thought and only wished to >put across a cranky assertion based on very little actual hard evidence >rather than his coincidental speculation. I even wondered whether the >whole thing was so far-fetched as to be a spoof.. >So I've only now caught up with the latest developments through the >thoughtful considered responses to the Lute List of people like you and >Jurgen Frenz. I too see no reason to change my final comment to >Neumann (pasted below) made in April last and the spam filter will >continue. >Martyn Hodgson > --- >- > > > > > > 2 Apr at 12:10 PM > > > > > > > >To T[1]ristan von Neumann [2]lutelist Net >Thank you for this. As I understand it your basic thesis is that, >because there >appears to be some similarities, various European early musical forms >must >have been directly copied at the time (and appropriated by Monteverdi >and >others) from existing music found on the subcontinent. >It will certainly be instructive to read your promised full and >properly developed >paper on this matter. In which refereed scholarly journal are you >seeking to have >it published? - and when will it appear? >Incidentally, I'm sure you will be aware of a basic rule of formal >logic employed >in any recognised objective analysis: - correlation does not imply >causation. A >mistaken belief that correlation signifies causation is, as you will >also be aware, >a questionable cause logical fallacy. No doubt you will, therefore, >rigorously >address this particularly relevant matter in your forthcoming paper. >Martyn Hodgson > __ > >From: Ido Shdaimah <[1]ishdai...@gmail.com> >To: lutelist Net <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> >Sent: Friday, 10 August 2018, 12:46 >Subject: [LUTE] Re: The illusory truth effect [was: Re: >Francesco//Siena 62 - "5th Mode" - Raga Kamod > Dear Tristan, > The Harmonium isn't traditionally used Indian Classical music: > In Indian music, only the Swaras (notes) Pa and Sa are set on exact > points. The other Sawaras vary within ranges called Swarakshetras. >The > maximal and minimal points are called Shrutis, and there are 22 of > them. When using different Ragas, different Shrutis are used for each > Swara. The Harmonium is equal-tempered, and as so, cannot operate >with > in that natural environment of Indian Classical music. > Also, historically, the Harmonium became popular in India during the > mid-late 19 century, due to portability and ease of play. > I think one of the biggest problems with your theory is that if Raags > and CI music theory was so well known in the west, then we would > probably have ample evidence of that use, like mentions in theory > treatises. > You also need to consider another, more practical issue: such a deep > musical exchange you suggest can only happen if there is EXTENSIVE > direct con
[LUTE] Re: another lute nativity - 6 courses in 1475?
Piero della Francesca . __ From: Tristan von Neumann To: lutelist Net Sent: Monday, 30 April 2018, 11:46 Subject: [LUTE] another lute nativity - 6 courses in 1475? This nativity has two very big lutes in it. Also, it seems the right lute has 11 pegs. Maybe this has been the subject of discussion already. Anyway, the lutes seem to have very elaborate 3d roses. [1]https://www.wga.hu/art/p/piero/3/13nativ3.jpg To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.wga.hu/art/p/piero/3/13nativ3.jpg 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding.
Oops ... I meant: Good luck. That is quite a tall order in itself, regarding the origins of the chacona, ciaccona, etc. Best regards to everyone Antonio, amused. __ From: Antonio Corona To: Tristan von Neumann ; "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2018, 19:17 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding. __ From: Tristan von Neumann <[1]tristanvonneum...@gmx.de> To: lutelist Net <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2018, 17:08 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding. Good luck. That is quite a tall order in itself. "After having talked with my former professor of musicology, I will first try to focus on the Ciacona origin, which seems a) most easy to show and will b) possible to cover in a handy format.2 -- To get on or off this list see list information at [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:tristanvonneum...@gmx.de 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding.
__ From: Tristan von Neumann To: lutelist Net Sent: Tuesday, 3 April 2018, 17:08 Subject: [LUTE] Re: A forthcoming paper - was Easteregg: The Birth of Baroque Music from the Spirit of India - no kidding. Good luck. That is quite a tall order in itself. "After having talked with my former professor of musicology, I will first try to focus on the Ciacona origin, which seems a) most easy to show and will b) possible to cover in a handy format.2 -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Calling all lute nerds...
Dear Martin I cannot recall offhand any quote with the exact meaning you mention. The closest I can think of is from Bermudo (Declaracion de Instrumentos, 1555, fol. xcix-verso), where he deals with the process of intabulation and suggests intabulating the vocal works from several composers (Tellez, Morales and Gombert). As a matter of fact, he does not equate here the "fantasia" with the composed work as found in the vihuela books, but rather as the product of the budding vihuelist's imagination and advices against indulging in such a practice, otherwise the beginner might end paying with "bad air": "It is a sore mistake for the beginners to try to come up with their fantasia when they start to play. Even if they would know counterpoint (unless it is as good as that of the aforesaid musicians) they should not play "fantasia" so early in order not to develop "bad ayre" [mal ayre]. Milan, on the other hand, considers that the pieces in his book should be called "fantasias" because they proceed form the author's fancy. Fuenllana does not comment about the fantasias characteristics other than comparing them with the "obras compuestas" (i.e. intabulations of vocal polyphony), and even states that if his own fantasias may have a "certain odour of composed works", it is due to the many such works he has seen and intabulated; his advice to the beginner is to study and play "obras compuestas" if he desires to truly learn music. Hope this helps. Best regards, Antonio __ From: Martin Shepherd To: Lute List Sent: Saturday, 3 March 2018, 12:22 Subject: [LUTE] Calling all lute nerds... Dear Collective Wisdom, Can someone point me in the correct direction for the quote (from Bermudo? Milan? someone else entirely?) who said roughly (in translation) "but the highest form of this art is to play fantasia" or something like that, meaning to take a theme or themes from vocal music and use them to create an instrumental piece. Merci d'avance, Martin --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. [1]https://www.avast.com/antivirus To get on or off this list see list information at [2]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.avast.com/antivirus 2. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco or da Crema
Not quite, at least in Spain. The Royal/Imperial "privilegios" granted to Valderrábano, Pisador, Fuenllana and Daza were not adressed to the printers, but to the composers themselves (or whoever had their power of attorney). In fact, there is some evidence of a pirate edition of Fuenllana's Orphenica Lyra by MartÃn de Montesdoca, the printer of the original edition ... Best wishes Antonio __ From: Alain Veylit To: Lutelist Sent: Wednesday, 21 February 2018, 11:30 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco or da Crema Privileges were granted to the printers, not the authors/composers, who usually got none of the profits of sales. In fact copyright laws were created because of this very fact, in the 18th century. Pirated copies of course included the privilege page and the name of the authorized publisher - think about xeroxing a book and selling it as the authorized copy... It's a fascinating history with many twists that has been going on for as long as publishing has been in existence. In 16th century England, the King's printers were French, and pirated copies of official documents by English printers were common and an act of patriotism ... - Authors relied on subscriptions and patronage to publish their works, or just plain old vanity publishing at their own cost. If I remember correctly, very few pieces published with an attribution to Henry Purcell were actually by that composer: pieces with his name on them sold better than those attributed to Anonymous. In other words, authors and composers had little to zero control over their works. Yet, without unauthorized manuscript copies and piracies, we would know very little about the lute repertoire of the time, so perhaps we should be thankful to those early hackers... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)
Dear Jean-Marie The "Mexican vihuela" (mainly used by Mariachis and in the "tierra caliente" area) is actually a strummed instrument more akin to a chitarra battente: five courses, vaulted back, etc. Incidentally, using "vihuela" to name the guitar is a commonplace among the gauchos, nothing outstanding there. Best wishes, Antonio __ From: Jean-Marie Poirier To: Roman Turovsky ; Antonio Corona Cc: G. C. ; 'Lute List' Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018, 7:53 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles) Contemporary Mexican folk song "De la arena nace el agua" !!! "La vihuela" here to be understood like a guitar... ([1]https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mexican_vihuela) All the best, Jean-Marie -- >"Se me revento la prima, >la segunda y la tercera >con los rizos de mi amada >voy a encordar mi vihuela..." > >An interesting piece of literary iconography, isn't it?)) >RT > >Sent from my iPhone > >> On Jan 22, 2018, at 6:46 AM, Antonio Corona <[2]abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: >> >> Dear G. >> It just might, but I'd rather stay with the categorical statements >> rather than just entertaining a possibility. >> Here are a few titbits: >> A character from a play desires to play the vihuela; his servant >> remarks that "no podras seà ±or taà ±er/ porque le falta la prima / y >> estan las bozes gastadas" (Comedia Himenea in Bartolomà © de Torres >> Naharro's, Propalladia, Naples, 1517). This vihuela is not lacking two >> primas ... >> A riddle by Pedro del Pozo about the vihuela (Cancionero, ms. 1547) >> fastens on the gut strings, and likens them to eleven dead: (Pasando >> por una huerta / vi una casa muy escura, / de muy estraà ±a hechura / un >> laà §o hecho a la puerta. / Onze muertos ende estauan / un bivo que les >> herÃa ... ). Eleven strings for twelve pegs? >> An allegoy about temperance: "Queriendo venir de encima / el taà ±edor >> sin segundo, / no hallo aun que se estima / en la vihela del mundo / >> templada mas que la prima" (Jorge de Montemayor, Las obras, Antwerp, >> 1554). The reference to the "player without second" would be pointless >> with two primas ... >> A poet complains about his grief but nevertheless acknowledges tha he >> finsd consolation in weeping, "Como aquel que con cautela / afloxa para >> otro dia / la prima de la vihuela" (Antonio de Villegas, Inventario, >> Medina del Campo,, 1565). Just one string to loosen ... >> An allegory about faith and sin; if faith is broken: "ni mas ni menos >> como en la vihuela, rompida la prima, auque las demas cuerdas queden en >> su punto, la musica queda manca" (Esteban de Salazar, Veynte discursos >> sobre el Credo, Granada, 1577). Nothing here about two broken strings >> ... >> "En vna vihuela, instrumento de musica, aunque ay muchas cuerdas, todas >> estan apareadas de dos en dos, vna no mas esta sola sin igual, que es >> la prima, que esta sin compaà ±ia" (Phillipe Diez, Marial de la >> sacratisima virgen, Salamanca, 1595). No further comment needed here. >> In an allegory about how our body should be as welll tuned as vihuela: >> "A de estar nuestro subjeto tan concertado para tener buena salud, como >> como una vihuela bien templada para que suene bien al oydo y no haga >> disonancia, porque si las segundas, o la prima hazen dissonancia >> sonara mal y no se podra oyr" (Juan de las Ruelas, Hermosura corporal >> de la Madre de Dios, Sevilla, 1621). Seconds: plural; prima: singular. >> "Prima es la cuerda primera y mas delgada de los instrumentos como la >> vihuela y la guitarra" (Sebastià ¡n de Covarrubias, Tesoro de la lengua >> castellana o espaà ±ola, Madrid, 1611). Note that it states "the first", >> in singular. >> "Los musicos mas diestros, doblan las cuerdas en los instrumentos >> muchas vezes, pero la prima jamas ha de ser mas que vna" (Cristà ³bal de >> Fonseca, Primera parte de la vida de Cristo, Madrid, 1622). Never more >> than one prima ... >> Another religious allegory: "Ni el taà ±edor quando templa la vihuela >> dexara bol
[LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)
Dear G. It just might, but I'd rather stay with the categorical statements rather than just entertaining a possibility. Here are a few titbits: A character from a play desires to play the vihuela; his servant remarks that "no podras señor tañer/ porque le falta la prima / y estan las bozes gastadas" (Comedia Himenea in Bartolomé de Torres Naharro's, Propalladia, Naples, 1517). This vihuela is not lacking two primas ... A riddle by Pedro del Pozo about the vihuela (Cancionero, ms. 1547) fastens on the gut strings, and likens them to eleven dead: (Pasando por una huerta / vi una casa muy escura, / de muy estraña hechura / un laço hecho a la puerta. / Onze muertos ende estauan / un bivo que les herÃa ... ). Eleven strings for twelve pegs? An allegoy about temperance: "Queriendo venir de encima / el tañedor sin segundo, / no hallo aun que se estima / en la vihela del mundo / templada mas que la prima" (Jorge de Montemayor, Las obras, Antwerp, 1554). The reference to the "player without second" would be pointless with two primas ... A poet complains about his grief but nevertheless acknowledges tha he finsd consolation in weeping, "Como aquel que con cautela / afloxa para otro dia / la prima de la vihuela" (Antonio de Villegas, Inventario, Medina del Campo,, 1565). Just one string to loosen ... An allegory about faith and sin; if faith is broken: "ni mas ni menos como en la vihuela, rompida la prima, auque las demas cuerdas queden en su punto, la musica queda manca" (Esteban de Salazar, Veynte discursos sobre el Credo, Granada, 1577). Nothing here about two broken strings ... "En vna vihuela, instrumento de musica, aunque ay muchas cuerdas, todas estan apareadas de dos en dos, vna no mas esta sola sin igual, que es la prima, que esta sin compañia" (Phillipe Diez, Marial de la sacratisima virgen, Salamanca, 1595). No further comment needed here. In an allegory about how our body should be as welll tuned as vihuela: "A de estar nuestro subjeto tan concertado para tener buena salud, como como una vihuela bien templada para que suene bien al oydo y no haga disonancia, porque si las segundas, o la prima hazen dissonancia sonara mal y no se podra oyr" (Juan de las Ruelas, Hermosura corporal de la Madre de Dios, Sevilla, 1621). Seconds: plural; prima: singular. "Prima es la cuerda primera y mas delgada de los instrumentos como la vihuela y la guitarra" (Sebastián de Covarrubias, Tesoro de la lengua castellana o española, Madrid, 1611). Note that it states "the first", in singular. "Los musicos mas diestros, doblan las cuerdas en los instrumentos muchas vezes, pero la prima jamas ha de ser mas que vna" (Cristóbal de Fonseca, Primera parte de la vida de Cristo, Madrid, 1622). Never more than one prima ... Another religious allegory: "Ni el tañedor quando templa la vihuela dexara boluiendo la clauija, de subir la cuerda, y estirarla, y estirarla, hata que vea, segun el arte, que esta proporcionada con la prima (por la cual se templan las otras)" (Miguel Angel Almenara, Pensamientos literales y morales sobre los evangelios ..., Valencia, 1623). Interesting to learn that it is from the single prima that the rest of the strings are tuned. Antonio Ferrer calls Virgin Mary "la prima en la vihuela del universo" (Arte de conocer y agradar a Jesus, Orihuela, 1631). It would be rather heretic to consider the possibility of two virgins ... There are plenty more references and, since there seems to be a general agreement among the writers of the time, who am I to contradict them? Best wishes, Antonio __ From: G. C. To: Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018, 4:23 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles) Hola Antonio, wouldn't the fact that there are 12 pegs indicate the possibility of DSC, even though it's perhaps not mentioned in the litterature? Why would they go through the trouble to put an extra peg in just for decoration? It wouldn't have been put there for the purpose of a 7th single bourdon, would it? Saludos G. On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 11:08 AM, Antonio Corona <[1]abcor...@yahoo.com> wrote: Dear G. I'd love to know about the evidence about different usages for the vihuela. Best wishes Antonio -- References 1. mailto:abcor...@yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)
Dear G. I'd love to know about the evidence about different usages for the vihuela. Best wishes Antonio __ From: G. C. To: "lute@cs.dartmouth.edu" Sent: Monday, 22 January 2018, 2:40 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles) I think, that one should be careful not to generalize. Like today (where some even play with singles on ALL courses), there were different uses also in the olden days. And look at the later 6 string guitar, which even had double strung chanterelles for a period in time. G. On Mon, Jan 22, 2018 at 9:29 AM, Antonio Corona <[1][1]abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu> wrote: Dear Edward, Despite what the pegs on the vihuelas suggest, I've found plenty of evidence that it was strung with a single first. We need to review our ideas on the subject of vihuela stringing ... Best wishes Antonio __ From: Edward Martin <[2][2]edvihuel...@gmail.com> To: lute net <[3][3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sunday, 21 January 2018, 14:56 Subject: [LUTE] Double first courses (chanterelles) Dear Collective wisdom, When did double first courses cease to exist on renaissance lutes? We know from early on, and from the middle ages, they were double strung on every course, including the treble. In terms of iconographical evidence, I looked at the Caravaggio "Lute Player", an the subject (he or she) is playing a 6 course lute, double strung throughout, including the treble, and there are 6 pegs on the upper and lower side of the peg box. Caravaggio's birth- death dates are 1571à ¢1610. So, perhaps his subject had an old fashioned lute for the time, or perhaps double-strung first courses lasted longer than we may think. Vihuelas also her double strung in the first courses, at least the instruments show 12 pegs for the 6-course vihuela. I tried to look up some information to answer my questions, but I could not find any in the sources I used. So, my questions are: 1. When did the double first courses stop, or go out of vogue? Was it universal, or did some countries / nationalities stop the practice earlier or later than others.? Did Francesco use a double first course? 2. Why did the double chanterelle stop? We know that later, lutes only had pegs and pegboxes to accommodate a single treble. 3. What evidence is there to support the "when and why" of this practice? 4. If a double chanterelle was the norm for a great part of the renaissance, why is it that it is so infrequently that we see a modern player doing this practice? Thanks in advance. ed -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1][4][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. [5][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[6]abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[7]edvihuel...@gmail.com 3. mailto:[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. [10]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. mailto:abcor...@cs.dartmouth.edu 7. mailto:edvihuel...@gmail.com 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 10. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Double first courses (chanterelles)
Dear Edward, Despite what the pegs on the vihuelas suggest, I've found plenty of evidence that it was strung with a single first. We need to review our ideas on the subject of vihuela stringing ... Best wishes Antonio __ From: Edward Martin To: lute net Sent: Sunday, 21 January 2018, 14:56 Subject: [LUTE] Double first courses (chanterelles) Dear Collective wisdom, When did double first courses cease to exist on renaissance lutes? We know from early on, and from the middle ages, they were double strung on every course, including the treble. In terms of iconographical evidence, I looked at the Caravaggio "Lute Player", an the subject (he or she) is playing a 6 course lute, double strung throughout, including the treble, and there are 6 pegs on the upper and lower side of the peg box. Caravaggio's birth- death dates are 1571â1610. So, perhaps his subject had an old fashioned lute for the time, or perhaps double-strung first courses lasted longer than we may think. Vihuelas also her double strung in the first courses, at least the instruments show 12 pegs for the 6-course vihuela. I tried to look up some information to answer my questions, but I could not find any in the sources I used. So, my questions are: 1. When did the double first courses stop, or go out of vogue? Was it universal, or did some countries / nationalities stop the practice earlier or later than others.? Did Francesco use a double first course? 2. Why did the double chanterelle stop? We know that later, lutes only had pegs and pegboxes to accommodate a single treble. 3. What evidence is there to support the "when and why" of this practice? 4. If a double chanterelle was the norm for a great part of the renaissance, why is it that it is so infrequently that we see a modern player doing this practice? Thanks in advance. ed -- To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Earliest printed tablature with ornaments
Oops, sorry I misremembered the hold signs. __ From: Rainer To: Lute net Sent: Monday, 6 March 2017, 6:47 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Earliest printed tablature with ornaments I am not at all interested in discussing Wikipedia's policy. I simply wanted to know if anybody knows any printed tablature before barley with ornaments. And I really do not want to receive every reply twice. Rainer On 06.03.2017 13:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: > Wikipedia has strict rules against original research, and all information > it permits has to externally documented with reliable scholarly sources. > RT > > > On 3/6/2017 7:31 AM, Rainer wrote: >> Of course, Wiki is unreliable. >> And - of course - there is no reason to believe the citation is incorrect. >> >> However, why do you think I have asked for prints before 1596? >> >> Barley has ornaments. >> >> Rainer >> >> As usual you have pressed reply to all :) >> >> On 06.03.2017 12:32, Ron Andrico wrote: >>>While Wikipedia is untrustworthy in most respects, in this case it may >>>be correct. While ornaments appear liberally in manuscript sources, >>>and there are various indications for right-hand fingering and >>>left-hand holds in earlier typeset prints of lute music, Vallet's >>>tablatures were engraved in copper, a very costly procedure that >>>probably contributed to his personal financial ruin. But this was the >>>only means of adding the extraordinarily detailed slurs, fingerings and >>>ornament signs to his printed tablatures. Since the statement >>>attributed to Herr Neumann is qualified with "may have been", there is >>>no reason to doubt the claim. >>> >>>RA >>> __ >>> >>>From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf >>>of Rainer <[3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> >>>Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 10:49 AM >>>To: Lute net >>>Subject: [LUTE] Earliest printed tablature with ornaments >>> >>>Dear lute netters, >>>According to Wikipedia >>>"According to Frederick Neumann,[2] Vallet may have been among the >>>first to introduce ornaments into lute tablature." >>>Of course this is nonsense. >>>Anyway, does anybody know of printed tablature with ornaments before >>>1596? >>>Rainer >>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>[1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>[2]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list >>>www.cs.dartmouth.edu >>>Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting >>>on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get >>>off the lute mail list? >>> >>>-- >>> >>> References >>> >>>1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>2. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> > > -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Earliest printed tablature with ornaments
Dear Rainer Antonio Rotta, Intabolatura de lauto di lo eccelentissimo musicho messer Antonio Rotta di recercari, motetti, balli, ... Libro primo, Venice, 1546. Best wishes, Antonio P.S. Sorry for the reply to all, my old computer is quite temperamental about these matters. __ From: Rainer To: Lute net Sent: Monday, 6 March 2017, 6:47 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Earliest printed tablature with ornaments I am not at all interested in discussing Wikipedia's policy. I simply wanted to know if anybody knows any printed tablature before barley with ornaments. And I really do not want to receive every reply twice. Rainer On 06.03.2017 13:41, Roman Turovsky wrote: > Wikipedia has strict rules against original research, and all information > it permits has to externally documented with reliable scholarly sources. > RT > > > On 3/6/2017 7:31 AM, Rainer wrote: >> Of course, Wiki is unreliable. >> And - of course - there is no reason to believe the citation is incorrect. >> >> However, why do you think I have asked for prints before 1596? >> >> Barley has ornaments. >> >> Rainer >> >> As usual you have pressed reply to all :) >> >> On 06.03.2017 12:32, Ron Andrico wrote: >>>While Wikipedia is untrustworthy in most respects, in this case it may >>>be correct. While ornaments appear liberally in manuscript sources, >>>and there are various indications for right-hand fingering and >>>left-hand holds in earlier typeset prints of lute music, Vallet's >>>tablatures were engraved in copper, a very costly procedure that >>>probably contributed to his personal financial ruin. But this was the >>>only means of adding the extraordinarily detailed slurs, fingerings and >>>ornament signs to his printed tablatures. Since the statement >>>attributed to Herr Neumann is qualified with "may have been", there is >>>no reason to doubt the claim. >>> >>>RA >>> __ >>> >>>From: [1]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu <[2]lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu> on behalf >>>of Rainer <[3]rads.bera_g...@t-online.de> >>>Sent: Monday, March 6, 2017 10:49 AM >>>To: Lute net >>>Subject: [LUTE] Earliest printed tablature with ornaments >>> >>>Dear lute netters, >>>According to Wikipedia >>>"According to Frederick Neumann,[2] Vallet may have been among the >>>first to introduce ornaments into lute tablature." >>>Of course this is nonsense. >>>Anyway, does anybody know of printed tablature with ornaments before >>>1596? >>>Rainer >>>To get on or off this list see list information at >>>[1][4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>[2]Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list >>>www.cs.dartmouth.edu >>>Frequently Asked Technical Questions about the lute mail list. getting >>>on and off the list; How do I get on the lute mail list? How do I get >>>off the lute mail list? >>> >>>-- >>> >>> References >>> >>>1. [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>>2. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >>> >> >> > > -- References 1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. mailto:rads.bera_g...@t-online.de 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Hidalgo Fret pattern
It is an engraving from JosA(c) GarcAa Hidalgo`s Principios para estudiar el nobilAsimo y real arte de la pintura (Madrid, 1693), intending to show in perspective a rule on how to fret instruments (unfortunately the proportions are wrong). There is a modern edition, Valencia, Universidad PolitA(c)cnica, 2006. Best wishes for 2016. __ From: Andreas Schlegel To: lute list Sent: Friday, 1 January 2016, 4:00 Subject: [LUTE] Hidalgo Fret pattern Dear collected wisdom, I found this in Bob Spencer's collection, now in the Royal Academy of Music, London: [1]https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514 [2]http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670 Who knows the exact meaning of this engraving? Is there a translation of the text? Thanks a lot! All the best, Andreas Andreas Schlegel Eckstr. 6 CH-5737 Menziken +41 (0)62 771 47 07 [3]lute.cor...@sunrise.ch -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. https://www.ram.ac.uk/museum/item/20514 2. http://keimages.ram.ac.uk/emuweb/php5/media.php?irn=16670 3. mailto:lute.cor...@sunrise.ch 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy
Dear friends, Regarding the lute in Spain, Douglas Alton Smith, as Dan points out, supports a myth, albeit a long established one. And I must agree with Monica in that it is indeed a rather silly one. For those who can read Spanish, my book El LaA-od en la EspaA+-a Cristiana (The Lute in Christian Spain) is about to appear, published by the Spanish Sociedad de la Vihuela, el LaA-od y la Guitarra. I hope It my prove helpful in dispelling the absurd notions about the alleged mistrust of things Moorish, besides paying homage to Diana Poulton and Pepe Rey's contributions to the matter. There is plenty more information and documents about the lute in Spain than those advanced by Smith, and they attest to a widespread use of the instrument there. As a matter of fact,I had already delved into the matter in my dissertation, and arrived at the conclusion -which I now can support even better- that the truly aristocratic instrument in Renaissance Spain was not the vihuela (as it is generally held), but the lute. With best wishes, Antonio __ From: Dan Winheld To: Monica Hall ; Mark Seifert Cc: Lutelist Sent: Wednesday, 6 May 2015, 16:53 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy Satan's Advocate could well quote from Douglas Alton Smith's support of the rather silly myth from his work, "A History of the Lute", p.221 Chapter VIII "The Vihuela in Renaissance Spain": "At least one musician, Rodrigo Castillo, who was denoted as a lutenist in Spanish court records of 1488, was called a vihuelist in 1500. Instrument makers who were commonly called 'laudero' in the 15th century were called 'violero' in the 16th." -And of course he's got footnotes giving documentation. For what it's worth- Can anyone corroborate, contradict? (Incidentally, I could have been legitimately labeled "Lutenist" in 1999 and "Vihuelist" in 2002). Dan On 5/6/2015 12:18 PM, Monica Hall wrote: > Briefly - I think the idea that the Spanish didn't like the lute > because it had Moorish associations is a rather silly myth. > Monica > > > - Original Message - From: "Mark Seifert" <[1]seifertm...@att.net> > To: "Ron Andrico" <[2]praelu...@hotmail.com>; "Christopher Wilke" > <[3]chriswi...@cs.dartmouth.edu>; "Dan Winheld" <[4]dwinh...@lmi.net>; "Rob > MacKillop" <[5]robmackil...@gmail.com>; "Howard Posner" > <[6]howardpos...@ca.rr.com>; "David Van Ooijen" <[7]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> > Cc: "'Lutelist'" <[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> > Sent: Wednesday, May 06, 2015 1:51 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Spain vs. Italy > > >> Regarding the Spain versus rest-of-Europe issue ( a most fascinating >> topic--thanks for introducing it, Robert Barto ), English Prof >> Brittany >> Hughes said that one reason the Spanish kings/queens so brutally >> expelled or forced conversion on the "Moors" (1523 was an important >> date of escalation, and then the worst of the Inquisition was imposed >> in 1609) was that the Turks liked to raid the coast of Spain from >> their >> ships, escalating anti-Muslim hatred throughout this period. She >> didn't mention why the Jews were so oppressed, as they seem like >> innocent bystanders. I wonder if they also tried to eliminate the >> lute, because it was seen as a Moorish instrument, or the lute belly >> reminded them of something really evil, like the belly of a pregnant >> woman, heaven forbid. >> In defense of Spain, Dr. Teofilo Ruiz of UCLA in his "Terror of >> History" course said that the Spanish ended their witch hunting >> decades >> before England and Germany (and America). Maybe the adverse >> effects of >> eliminating Jews and Muslims helped them realize that getting rid of >> all their witches wouldn't improve anything. >> I had a really spooky/scary experience in 1973 after I got a minimum >> wage job vacuuming dust off the books in the dark stacks of Widener >> Library (built after the Titanic went down in honor of a son of a >> Boston Brahmin family). Was sitting on the cold concrete floor >> dusting >> a row of books when I encountered a black leather clad tome whose >> binding showed one word, my last name spelled correctly, and the date >> "1728" in silver Gothic letters. Shocked and amazed, I pulled it >> out, >> opened it and discovered it was a baroque legal textbook discussing in >> incredible detail some issues regarding die Hexen. Though I was >> studying German at the time, I couldn't quite figure out if it covered >> how to identify/prosecute or how to defend/absolve the witches! There >> were columns and tables of criteria, and even some numbers. I suspect >> the botched Salem trials and executions bef
[LUTE] Re: Narvaez
Oops, that should be Willoughby Lute Book ... __ From: Antonio Corona To: Monica Hall ; sterling price Cc: Lutelist Sent: Sunday, 7 December 2014, 11:41 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Narvaez Just for the record, Narvaez' music appears in lute sources, Cf. Willoughby Lute Music, "A Fantaci de Narboyes". And yes itA's for the vihuela, but I'm pretty sure the vihuela repertoire was also played on the lute. There is a book on the subject forthcoming, El laA-od en la EspaA+-a cristiana, but I'm afraid it is, again, in Spanish. Best wishes, Antonio __ From: Monica Hall <[1]mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk> To: sterling price <[2]spiffys84...@yahoo.com> Cc: Lutelist <[3]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sunday, 7 December 2014, 7:36 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Narvaez If it is any help to you I can send you a copy of my handwritten summary of Narvaez' instructions. Also I think Charles Jacobs' editions of Milan's El Maestro and Fuenllana's Orpheica lyra include English translations of their instructions which cover the same ground and are more comprehensive. Monica - Original Message - From: "sterling price" <[1][4]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu> To: "Lutelist Net" <[2][5]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 7:38 AM Subject: [LUTE] Narvaez > Hi all--Can someone direct me to an English translation of the > instructions in the first book of Delphin de Musica of Narvaez? > Yes, I know it is hard to believe but I recently got a nice renaissance > lute and I am exploring the six course music for the first time. I > can't believe how much fun it is. And yes I know Narvaez is for > viheula... > Sterling > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:[7]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:[8]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. [9]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:mjlh...@tiscali.co.uk 2. mailto:spiffys84...@yahoo.com 3. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 4. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu 5. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu 8. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 9. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Narvaez
Just for the record, Narvaez' music appears in lute sources, Cf. Willoughby Lute Music, "A Fantaci de Narboyes". And yes itA's for the vihuela, but I'm pretty sure the vihuela repertoire was also played on the lute. There is a book on the subject forthcoming, El laA-od en la EspaA+-a cristiana, but I'm afraid it is, again, in Spanish. Best wishes, Antonio __ From: Monica Hall To: sterling price Cc: Lutelist Sent: Sunday, 7 December 2014, 7:36 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Narvaez If it is any help to you I can send you a copy of my handwritten summary of Narvaez' instructions. Also I think Charles Jacobs' editions of Milan's El Maestro and Fuenllana's Orpheica lyra include English translations of their instructions which cover the same ground and are more comprehensive. Monica - Original Message - From: "sterling price" <[1]spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu> To: "Lutelist Net" <[2]lute@cs.dartmouth.edu> Sent: Sunday, December 07, 2014 7:38 AM Subject: [LUTE] Narvaez > Hi all--Can someone direct me to an English translation of the > instructions in the first book of Delphin de Musica of Narvaez? > Yes, I know it is hard to believe but I recently got a nice renaissance > lute and I am exploring the six course music for the first time. I > can't believe how much fun it is. And yes I know Narvaez is for > viheula... > Sterling > > -- > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:spiffys84...@cs.dartmouth.edu 2. mailto:lute@cs.dartmouth.edu 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Seven course vihuela.
rvived, so not having the time or talent to
> explore this modality myself, I use mine as an ordinary "7 course
lute
> w/low D".
>
> Bermudo also recommended an impossible theoretical tuning in 4ths &
> 5ths for the 7 course instrument that would provide a range to cover
> everything- but of course, the limitations of the strings & response
> range of the instrument kept this idea in the theoretical realm only.
>
> A number of players were remembered as great players of the 7 course
> vihuela, including Luis de Guzman (apparently the composer of a lost
> book of vihuela music. Damn!), Pedro de Madrid, the great composer
> Francisco Guerrero, and a few others.
>
> Dr. Ward's book is a must read, must own book for any serious vihuela
> player.
>
> Dan
>
> On 10/16/2014 7:46 AM, Antonio Corona wrote:
>>"the actual 7 course historical tuning specified for the "Vihuela
>>Grande"
>>
>>Best wishes to all
>>Antonio
>>On Thursday, 16 October 2014, 8:23, Martin Shepherd
>><[1]mar...@luteshop.co.uk> wrote:
>>The version in the Folger MS ("the battle gallyard") is written
>> for 7c
>>lute with the 7th at D.
>>Same applies to the Dd.5.78 version of Mr John Langton's Pavan.
>>M
>>On 16/10/2014 04:13, Dan Winheld wrote:
>>> Ed-
>>>
>>> It's a piece a cake. Every time he calls for the low "F", it's
>> in low
>>> position & chord voicing that makes it very, very easy to
>> finger on
>>> the 7th course at the 3rd fret. Dowland does not call for this
>> note
>>in
>>> many places where he could; as if the piece was originally
>> conceived
>>> for a 7 course, low "D" instrument first.
>>>
>>> Far more telling is Langton's Pavin (also in the "Varietie") -
a
>>> veritable showcase piece for the 8 course lute. Also no prob.
>> on a 7
>>> course w/low D.
>>>
>>> Yeah, I remember your damn lute. I'm still counting pegs in my
>> sleep.
>>> Almost as much fun was bringing my 7 string guitar to Mimmi
Fox's
>>jazz
>>> guitar class. She kept looking at the guitar, looking at my
hands,
>>and
>>> shaking her head in confusement.
>>>
>>> Dan
>>>
>>> On 10/15/2014 5:16 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
>>>> What about the King of Denmark's Galliard in Robert Dowland's
>>>> Variety. IIRC, you pretty much need the open F and D if you
>> want to
>>>> pull it off well. I would tune 7 to low D and play the Fs up
an
>>>> octave probably. But I'm on board with you. I had my 8 course
>>>> converted to a 7 course long ago. I love to watch people's
faces
>>when
>>>> they count the strings and then count the pegs. As I've always
>> said,
>>>> a seven course is only 7/8 as difficult as eight course.
>>>>
>>>> On Oct 16, 2014, at 4:36 AM, Dan Winheld
<[1][2]dwinh...@lmi.net>
>>wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> The answer is- Nothing! It can all be done with 7 courses-
but
>>since
>>>>> my low D 7th course would generate far too much tension
>> cranked up
>>>>> to "F", I have to conclude that one (well, me anyway...)
>> needs to
>>>>> have either two 7 course instruments or... ONE eight-course!
>>>> Ed Durbrow
>>>> Saitama, Japan
>>>> [2][3]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>>>> [3][4]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>>>> [4][5]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>>> [5][6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>>>
>>>
>>>
>>---
>>This email is free from viruses and malware because avast!
Antivirus
>>protection is active.
>>[6][7]http://www.avast.com
>>
>>--
>>
>> References
>>
>>1. mailto:[8]dwinh...@lmi.net
>>2. [9]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>>3. [10]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>>4. [11]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>>5. [12]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>6. [13]http://www.avast.com/
>>
>>
>
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:mar...@luteshop.co.uk
2. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
3. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
4. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
5. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
7. http://www.avast.com/
8. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
9. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
10. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
11. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
12. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
13. http://www.avast.com/
[LUTE] Re: Seven courses versus eight.
"the actual 7 course historical tuning specified for the "Vihuela
Grande"
Best wishes to all
Antonio
On Thursday, 16 October 2014, 8:23, Martin Shepherd
wrote:
The version in the Folger MS ("the battle gallyard") is written for 7c
lute with the 7th at D.
Same applies to the Dd.5.78 version of Mr John Langton's Pavan.
M
On 16/10/2014 04:13, Dan Winheld wrote:
> Ed-
>
> It's a piece a cake. Every time he calls for the low "F", it's in low
> position & chord voicing that makes it very, very easy to finger on
> the 7th course at the 3rd fret. Dowland does not call for this note
in
> many places where he could; as if the piece was originally conceived
> for a 7 course, low "D" instrument first.
>
> Far more telling is Langton's Pavin (also in the "Varietie") - a
> veritable showcase piece for the 8 course lute. Also no prob. on a 7
> course w/low D.
>
> Yeah, I remember your damn lute. I'm still counting pegs in my sleep.
> Almost as much fun was bringing my 7 string guitar to Mimmi Fox's
jazz
> guitar class. She kept looking at the guitar, looking at my hands,
and
> shaking her head in confusement.
>
> Dan
>
> On 10/15/2014 5:16 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
>> What about the King of Denmark's Galliard in Robert Dowland's
>> Variety. IIRC, you pretty much need the open F and D if you want to
>> pull it off well. I would tune 7 to low D and play the Fs up an
>> octave probably. But I'm on board with you. I had my 8 course
>> converted to a 7 course long ago. I love to watch people's faces
when
>> they count the strings and then count the pegs. As I've always said,
>> a seven course is only 7/8 as difficult as eight course.
>>
>> On Oct 16, 2014, at 4:36 AM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>
wrote:
>>
>>> The answer is- Nothing! It can all be done with 7 courses- but
since
>>> my low D 7th course would generate far too much tension cranked up
>>> to "F", I have to conclude that one (well, me anyway...) needs to
>>> have either two 7 course instruments or... ONE eight-course!
>> Ed Durbrow
>> Saitama, Japan
>> [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>> [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>> [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
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References
1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://www.avast.com/
[LUTE] Re: Seven courses versus eight.
"the actual 7 course historical tuning specified for the "Vihuela
Grande"
Best wishes to all
Antonio
On Thursday, 16 October 2014, 8:23, Martin Shepherd
wrote:
The version in the Folger MS ("the battle gallyard") is written for 7c
lute with the 7th at D.
Same applies to the Dd.5.78 version of Mr John Langton's Pavan.
M
On 16/10/2014 04:13, Dan Winheld wrote:
> Ed-
>
> It's a piece a cake. Every time he calls for the low "F", it's in low
> position & chord voicing that makes it very, very easy to finger on
> the 7th course at the 3rd fret. Dowland does not call for this note
in
> many places where he could; as if the piece was originally conceived
> for a 7 course, low "D" instrument first.
>
> Far more telling is Langton's Pavin (also in the "Varietie") - a
> veritable showcase piece for the 8 course lute. Also no prob. on a 7
> course w/low D.
>
> Yeah, I remember your damn lute. I'm still counting pegs in my sleep.
> Almost as much fun was bringing my 7 string guitar to Mimmi Fox's
jazz
> guitar class. She kept looking at the guitar, looking at my hands,
and
> shaking her head in confusement.
>
> Dan
>
> On 10/15/2014 5:16 PM, Ed Durbrow wrote:
>> What about the King of Denmark's Galliard in Robert Dowland's
>> Variety. IIRC, you pretty much need the open F and D if you want to
>> pull it off well. I would tune 7 to low D and play the Fs up an
>> octave probably. But I'm on board with you. I had my 8 course
>> converted to a 7 course long ago. I love to watch people's faces
when
>> they count the strings and then count the pegs. As I've always said,
>> a seven course is only 7/8 as difficult as eight course.
>>
>> On Oct 16, 2014, at 4:36 AM, Dan Winheld <[1]dwinh...@lmi.net>
wrote:
>>
>>> The answer is- Nothing! It can all be done with 7 courses- but
since
>>> my low D 7th course would generate far too much tension cranked up
>>> to "F", I have to conclude that one (well, me anyway...) needs to
>>> have either two 7 course instruments or... ONE eight-course!
>> Ed Durbrow
>> Saitama, Japan
>> [2]http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
>> [3]https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
>> [4]http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>>
>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>> [5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>
>
---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus
protection is active.
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References
1. mailto:dwinh...@lmi.net
2. http://www.youtube.com/user/edurbrow?feature=watch
3. https://soundcloud.com/ed-durbrow
4. http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
5. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
6. http://www.avast.com/
[LUTE] Re: Bream Collection... I just noticed
Dear All,
This forum, as I understand it, is devoted to the lute and all
pertinent topics. The contributions of Julian Bream are an important
part of the history of the lute in the 20th century. Or should we
consider that there is no history of the lute after the 18th century?
I, for one, have the deepest admiration for figures such as Dolmetsh or
Poulton, and of course Bream, with whom I recognize a debt and who hold
my deepest admiration.
Antonio Corona (who hasn't played the guitar for more the 20 years)
On Sunday, 8 December 2013, 11:06, Dan Winheld
wrote:
"there were some jazzcats in the 16th century writing cool stuff for
7-courses too."
Terzi Van Eps. My top R-lute student and I are doing his
"frozen-in-time-for-our-benefit" improvisations. The classical
guitarist I alternate Saturday afternoon gigs with has a John Coltrane
arrangement or two in his bag of tricks. That seems to be a more common
phenomenon for many of us "Classically" trained non-improvisers; to
take (or make) a few complete Jazz compositions and play them as
composed, discrete pieces- just material in our regular repertoire.
Ironically, as I've gotten better at the actual lute music over a
lifetime of immersion, I do add some improv bits- and sections- to some
of the lute stuff that seems to "want" it, but play my modern pieces
note-for-note. Need another lifetime or three to really get some of
this stuff down properly. Jody Fischer is a superb Jazz guitarist out
of the L.A. area (fingers/pick, single line/harmony- complete package
musician) who may still be posting on-line guitar lessons. Very
worthwhile for all guitarists/lutenists, particularly for nuts 'n bolts
stuff- like how to work into a difficult chord fingering; first getting
comfy with the chord itself, then how to move into & out of it
fluently.
Dan
On 12/8/2013 1:16 AM, David van Ooijen wrote:
> >>
>
>
> Playing melody, harmony and bass for a jazz guitarist was not
new
> when Joe Pass did it so superbly. Check out George Van Eps (7
string
> jazz guitar), Charlie Byrd (jazz on a classical guitar), Jim
Hall,
> Buddy Fite, Chet Atkins (solo guitar version of Souza's "Stars
and
> Stripes Forever" complete with piccolo obligato), Jimmy Wyble
("The
> Art of Two Line Improvisation") etc., etc.
>
><<
>I know, hence my quotation marks around the word new, but it was
Joe's
>selling line. Btw, I think before George van Eps did his thing
(his
>method is availbale as pdf online, if you can't find it I'll mail
it to
>people who are interested. Out-of print as far as I know) there
were
>some jazzcats in the 16th century writing cool stuff for 7-courses
too.
>History does have a tendency ...
>David
>
>--
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
> [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
--
References
1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Old scam, now for lutes too: Reply as soon as possible................
If you are the wright teacher, perhaps he needs flying lessons ... nearer my God to thee. Cheers __ From: Edward Martin To: Rob MacKillop ; David van Ooijen Cc: lutelist Net Sent: Thursday, 12 July 2012, 17:36 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Old scam, now for lutes too: Reply as soon as possible Absolutely, I think... At 12:18 PM 7/12/2012, Rob MacKillop wrote: >Well, if he believes in God, he must be a good person... >Rob > >On 12 July 2012 18:15, David van Ooijen <[1][1]davidvanooi...@gmail.com> >wrote: > > Look what the cat brought in. It was cc-ed to a lot of e-mail > addresses. > Only yesterday I recieved an e-mail from a man offering me his 16 > year > old daughter Vicky. For any instrumental lesson I might seem fit. > David > -- Forwarded message -- > From: jimmy frank <[2][2]jf9...@gmail.com> > Hello Teacher. > I'm J Frank by name..I need a Lute teacher through Skype for my son > (Smith) 16 by age. And through my searching on the internet i found > you and i guess/hope you are the wright teacher i can employ for my > son. My son is a raw beginner. > I will like to hear from you as soon as possible to know what to do > next and how to go regarding the fee, the lesson time and etc okay. > Meanwhile i will really like you to get back with your full address, > i > mean where you are reside. > Regards > J Frank > I believe in GOD > To get on or off this list see list information at > [3][3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >-- > >References > >1. mailto:[4]davidvanooi...@gmail.com >2. mailto:[5]jf9...@gmail.com >3. [6]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html Edward Martin 2817 East 2nd Street Duluth, Minnesota 55812 e-mail: [7]e...@gamutstrings.com voice: (218) 728-1202 [8]http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name [9]http://www.myspace.com/edslute [10]http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin -- References 1. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 2. mailto:jf9...@gmail.com 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 4. mailto:davidvanooi...@gmail.com 5. mailto:jf9...@gmail.com 6. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html 7. mailto:e...@gamutstrings.com 8. http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?id60298871&ref=name 9. http://www.myspace.com/edslute 10. http://magnatune.com/artists/edward_martin
[LUTE] Re: Fuenllana dots
They are just a visual guide to align the numbers with the values above. He does the same (as also the rest of the vihuelists do) in the pieces for six course vihuela (as well as the ones for five-course instrument). Best wishes, Antonio __ From: Leonard Williams To: Lute List Sent: Monday, 23 May 2011, 19:58 Subject: [LUTE] Fuenllana dots I've been looking over Fuenllana's fantasias for 4 cs guitar (Orphenica Lyra ff 163-166). He occasionally places dots above notes (within the staff). Anybody know what they signify? Thanks, Leonard Williams To get on or off this list see list information at [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/%7Ewbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Euonimo and Aristono
Dear Monica, Strabone, probably via Alciato, Rippa and Kirscher. Have a look at: http://www.examenapium.it/kircher/pag/00-01.htm Best regards, Antonio - Original Message From: Monica Hall To: Lutelist Sent: Tue, 31 August, 2010 15:59:09 Subject: [LUTE] Euonimo and Aristono Is there anyone familiar with Classical litereature who know of the story of Euonimo. Apparently he was competing with Aristono playing the cithara and broke a string (it happens to the best of us). The Gods (all of them?) sent a Cicada (presumably a sort of silkworm) which produced such a wonderful string that he won the competition and a statue was erected to him. Does anyone know where the story comes from? Regards Monica -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Lachrimae pavan
All right, I will not ... - Original Message From: Sauvage Valéry To: Lute List Sent: Sat, 6 March, 2010 4:13:40 Subject: [LUTE] Lachrimae pavan I commit a non-orthodox and non-hip version of Lachrimae Pavan, using the arrangement by Jamie Holding. Purists, please, don't watch... [1]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scbY0toLxy0 Val ;-) -- References 1. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=scbY0toLxy0 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Little Lines
Dear Stewart, When it is used for an n, as it is most frequent in Spanish, it is called a nunnation sign (i.e. the sign that indicates the addition of a final n). With all my best wishes , Antonio - Original Message From: Stewart McCoy To: Lute Net Sent: Tue, 29 December, 2009 14:03:59 Subject: [LUTE] Little Lines Dear All, A friend of mine has asked me this question: When a seventeenth-century copyist abbreviated a word and indicated it by writing a line over the last letter, rather than a dot after it (e.g. Preludiu for Preludium), is there a proper term to refer to that line? I don't now the answer. Can anyone help? Stewart McCoy. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Not that I should want to cry
Dear friends, I am in dire need of two articles by David pinto that appeared in the Lute Society Journal: Dowland's Tears: aspects of Lachrimae (LSJ 37, 1997), and Dowland's True Tears (LSJ 42, 2002) I would be most grateful if some one of you has them in digital format and could graciously provide me with a copy. Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Jan Gruter's technique
Dear Howard, What is the source for the theory that in Spain and its areas of influence thumb-out was the norm? As far as I am aware, certain musical sources (such as Venegas de Henestrosa) inform us of the possibility of playing in this manner, besides the thumb-under thechnique which is also acknowledged. Iconographic sources tell the same story: both techniques coexisted. Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: howard posner To: Lute list Sent: Tuesday, 15 September, 2009 15:15:44 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Jan Gruter's technique On Sep 15, 2009, at 11:43 AM, nedma...@aol.com wrote: > But, I am making a basic assumption (based upon a limited amount of > reading) that a style of thumb-under technique was in general use > before a style of thumb-over technique evolved and became also > generally used. Also, that this later style did evolve at the same > time that more bass courses were being added to the lute. From > that, I've arrived at the assumption that something about the thumb- > over style made it easier to deal with the added bass courses. Here's another version of history: in the south, Spain and Italy, thumb-out was the norm as far back as anyone can tell (thus was normal when lutes had five and six courses), and the hand position spread north in the 1500' and 1600's. It may have more to do with tone than facility. I've long since forgotten the evidence for the south-to-north migration theory, BTW. > Might I ask you why you've chosen to use thumb-over as opposed to > thumb-under? Flattered that you'd ask, but the only reason is that I find it more comfortable, which is not really useful information for you. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?
Dear Karl, Not quite. The hemiola, in this case, is a displacement of accents in the two bars before the last, whereby the metrical pattern in two bars in triple time is articulated as if were three bars in duple time; the final chord with a perfect breve is perfectly all right. In other words, you must have three stresses measuring three breves (or their equivalents) in the two bars before the last. This is precisely the case. In the final cadence, for instance, assuming a G tuning, you would have the following pattern: first stress: 4 minims (Bb-A-G-F); second stress: 2 semibreves on the third beat of the first bar and on the first beat of the second (E-F); and what definitely shows this to be an hemiola is the last stress, a breve (C) with a change of harmony with the typical 4-3 retard which must be accented, here occuring on the second beat, therby indicating clearly the displacement of accent. Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: Karl-L. Eggert To: Antonio Corona Sent: Wednesday, 9 September, 2009 16:24:38 Subject: Re: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows? Dear Antonio, Sorry, my answer is a bit late. I agree with you that a hemiola can be pointed out by the bass. But I what I see in in the two bars before the last section bar is the rhythm /breve semibreve/ semibreve breve/ the latter a syncope typical for gaillards. To form a hemiola, a bar with /breve semibreve/ must follow. Instead the closing chord of the section with a perfect breve value follows. Best wishes Karl - Original Message - From: "Antonio Corona" To: "Karl-L. Eggert" Cc: Sent: Friday, August 28, 2009 8:14 PM Subject: [english 100%] [LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows? Dear Karl, Hemiolas in galliards are never notated explicitly, but you can deduce them easily from the movement of the bass, in the last two bars before the final chord. This is the case in the three cadences in Milan's piece. Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: Karl-L. Eggert To: Lute mailing list Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 7:49:03 Subject: [LUTE] [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows? Antonio Corona wrote: Dana: Pavanna are dances, they are slow dances with the steps taken on the tactus, typically one step per modern measure. Lots of time for slow graceful showing off by the strutting peacocks. No matter if the tactus is subdivided triply or duply. As I stated above, the sixth "pavan" is by no means such a dance. As far as I can recall, I have never seen a pavan in triple time with the characteristic hemiola of the galliard. Speed has nothing to do with rythmic structure. I agree that the sixth pavan sounds like a gaillard. For my taste, a tempo of 120semibreves/min sounds best -- apt for a gaillard. But where is there a hemiola in the 6th pavan? (The breves at the section ends are perfect, i.e. have the value of three semibreves.) Karl -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
Dear Göran, I'm very sorry, but I cannot offer very much help. I read it at the British Library when I was preparing my Ph:D dissertation, in a quite rare nineteenth-century edition. However, there seems to be a facsimile edition of 2001. Have a look at: http://books.google.com.mx/books?id=5QLnuXWZlJgC&pg=PT87&lpg=PT87&dq=mil%C3%A1n+%22El+cortesano%22&source=bl&ots=5TTr5L2wYj&sig=0VWUJAyGCu3H1fyv3aFExBOcmLs&hl=es&ei=3gacSoP6N9LjlAfer92_DA&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=1#v=onepage&q=&f=false Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: G. Crona To: Antonio Corona Sent: Monday, 31 August, 2009 10:19:00 Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose? Antonio! I've been looking for that book for ages. You have read it. Any idea of where I could get hold of the txt? Best Göran - Original Message - From: "Antonio Corona" To: Cc: Sent: Saturday, August 29, 2009 3:09 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose? - Original Message From: "dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us" To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 16:17:39 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose? On Fri, Aug 28, 2009, Antonio Corona said: AC> At any rate, we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for > certain facts of performance pratice by summoning the whims of a priest. Dana: Not even a prince of a priest? It is such men who have the means to hire lutenists for such occaisions, so that is not an unreasonable circumstance. I do not speak of a common practice, but an aberation; yet, you must admit that the vagaries of heart-rate will have an affect on the players choice of tactus rate, this is true even today in modern orchestral performance; an excited conductor may well take some passages faster in performance than in rehearsal. Not even of a prince or priest. Milan was not a lutenist for hire: as far as we can tell from his autobiographical book he was an aristocratic amateur. And, while the heart rate may well affect a players' performance, we are not discussing how fast an excited vihuelist might have played, but a specific instruction by the author. >> In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how >> slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played >> somewhat fast in general usage. Dana: At least half again as many notes makes for faster seeming music; especially contrasted against the Dancers gravitas. I spoke of the speed of the dance, not the music (save for the tenor, or the implied tenor). I beg your pardon. I was under the impression that we were discussing Milan's piece. Dana: As yesterday, and before that, and tomorrow and after that; I have not and cannot bring that music before my eyes tho I wish I could; nor does it lie in my head so I cannot speak more directly to your point. You can consult the facsimile at: http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.es/R/VF4NGVRAE4GN5CIQXCF7EBM5DNRXF6CN2GFGG7M9Y6UCN92U5T-02151?func=results-jump-full&set_entry=12 Dana: I thank you for your translation, my spanish comes largely from my singing and is at best un poquito. Please recall that my first thought was of a pavan in triple, that it could be a galliarde was conjecture on my part. Wouldnt be the first time a publisher messed up the intentions of an author and the author didnt catch it from proofs, if indeed he was given proofs in a timely fashion. While both the press and LdM shared residence in Valencia, the book is dedicated to the King of Portugal, a healthy journey across the center of Spain. It is possible that LdM was seeking a position at the court and may have been traveling during the production work on the book (more conjecture). There is no messing up of the author's intentions, as the Milan rubrics I quoted before show. Milan was not looking for any position at the Portuguese court, he was already part of that of Germaine de Foix, and not as a vihuelist, but as an appreciated member, as his book of 1561 (quite some time after the publication of el Maestro), also published at Valencia, and dedicated to King Philip II, shows. We cannot build up knowledge just from conjeture. > Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: "This pavan has the > proportion of three semibreves [each] bar Dana: and there you have it for certs, a pavan in tripla. Hemiola is a feature of things in three, but not all that features hemiola is a galliard; there are also tourdion, volta, and canario. No tourdions in Spanish sources, neither voltas (a bit late for the time when El Maestro was published, besides), while the Spanish canario is a seventeenth- and eighteenth-century dance. Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
- Original Message From: "dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us" To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 16:17:39 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose? On Fri, Aug 28, 2009, Antonio Corona said: AC> At any rate, we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for > certain facts of performance pratice by summoning the whims of a priest. Dana: Not even a prince of a priest? It is such men who have the means to hire lutenists for such occaisions, so that is not an unreasonable circumstance. I do not speak of a common practice, but an aberation; yet, you must admit that the vagaries of heart-rate will have an affect on the players choice of tactus rate, this is true even today in modern orchestral performance; an excited conductor may well take some passages faster in performance than in rehearsal. Not even of a prince or priest. Milan was not a lutenist for hire: as far as we can tell from his autobiographical book he was an aristocratic amateur. And, while the heart rate may well affect a players' performance, we are not discussing how fast an excited vihuelist might have played, but a specific instruction by the author. >> In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how >> slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played >> somewhat fast in general usage. Dana: At least half again as many notes makes for faster seeming music; especially contrasted against the Dancers gravitas. I spoke of the speed of the dance, not the music (save for the tenor, or the implied tenor). I beg your pardon. I was under the impression that we were discussing Milan's piece. Dana: As yesterday, and before that, and tomorrow and after that; I have not and cannot bring that music before my eyes tho I wish I could; nor does it lie in my head so I cannot speak more directly to your point. You can consult the facsimile at: http://bibliotecadigitalhispanica.bne.es/R/VF4NGVRAE4GN5CIQXCF7EBM5DNRXF6CN2GFGG7M9Y6UCN92U5T-02151?func=results-jump-full&set_entry=12 Dana: I thank you for your translation, my spanish comes largely from my singing and is at best un poquito. Please recall that my first thought was of a pavan in triple, that it could be a galliarde was conjecture on my part. Wouldnt be the first time a publisher messed up the intentions of an author and the author didnt catch it from proofs, if indeed he was given proofs in a timely fashion. While both the press and LdM shared residence in Valencia, the book is dedicated to the King of Portugal, a healthy journey across the center of Spain. It is possible that LdM was seeking a position at the court and may have been traveling during the production work on the book (more conjecture). There is no messing up of the author's intentions, as the Milan rubrics I quoted before show. Milan was not looking for any position at the Portuguese court, he was already part of that of Germaine de Foix, and not as a vihuelist, but as an appreciated member, as his book of 1561 (quite some time after the publication of el Maestro), also published at Valencia, and dedicated to King Philip II, shows. We cannot build up knowledge just from conjeture. > Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: "This pavan has the > proportion of three semibreves [each] bar Dana: and there you have it for certs, a pavan in tripla. Hemiola is a feature of things in three, but not all that features hemiola is a galliard; there are also tourdion, volta, and canario. No tourdions in Spanish sources, neither voltas (a bit late for the time when El Maestro was published, besides), while the Spanish canario is a seventeenth- and eighteenth-century dance. Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?
Dear Karl, Hemiolas in galliards are never notated explicitly, but you can deduce them easily from the movement of the bass, in the last two bars before the final chord. This is the case in the three cadences in Milan's piece. Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: Karl-L. Eggert To: Lute mailing list Sent: Friday, 28 August, 2009 7:49:03 Subject: [LUTE] [english 100%] Re: Edward Martin/who knows? Antonio Corona wrote: Dana: Pavanna are dances, they are slow dances with the steps taken on the tactus, typically one step per modern measure. Lots of time for slow graceful showing off by the strutting peacocks. No matter if the tactus is subdivided triply or duply. As I stated above, the sixth "pavan" is by no means such a dance. As far as I can recall, I have never seen a pavan in triple time with the characteristic hemiola of the galliard. Speed has nothing to do with rythmic structure. I agree that the sixth pavan sounds like a gaillard. For my taste, a tempo of 120semibreves/min sounds best -- apt for a gaillard. But where is there a hemiola in the 6th pavan? (The breves at the section ends are perfect, i.e. have the value of three semibreves.) Karl -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
Dear friends > On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > >> "They must be played with a somewhat fast air [so much for the slow >> pavan] Dana: well, perhaps the tempo can be varied enough to get that certain peacock and his retinue thru the line as quickly as possible; perhaps at a wedding when the priest is visibly impatient for whatever reason. Which leaves the matter of the rythmic structure unaccounted for. At any rate, we cannote provide a reasonable hypothesis for certain facts of performance pratice by summoning the whims of a priest. >> In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how >> slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played >> somewhat fast in general usage. Dana: it is entirely possible that the copy given to the publisher/printer/compositor contained a suite of pavan and gaillarde which were not annotated as such, and slipped thru. Unfortunatly, I do not have the music available as I write this (most of my music is packed up, and the university music library is on inconveniant summer hours), further, I didnt explore all of the pavans some decades ago, only those I had recordings for (Yepes mainly). Milan states (full quotation): "These six fantasias that follow, as I mentioned before, resemble in their air and composition the same pavans that are played in Italy, and, since they are so much alike in everything, let us call them pavans. The first four are my invention, the melody of the two that follow was composed in Italy and the compositon over them is mine. They must be played somewhat fast, and they should be played twice or thrice, and the first pavan that follows belongs to the first and second mode" (Estas seis fantasias que se siguen, como arriba os dije, parecen en su aire y compostura a las mismas pavanas que en Italia se tañen, y pues en todo remedan a ellas, digamosles pavanas. Las cuatro primeras son inventadas por mi; las dos que después se siguen la sonada de ellas se hizo en Italia, y la compostura sobre la sonada de ellas es mía. Devense tañer con el compás algo apresurado, y requieren tañerse dos o tres veces, y esta pavana que primeramente sigue anda por los terminos del primero y segundo tonos). I believe, from this quotation, that it is most unlikely that Milan might have given a pavan-galliard pair to the publisher. Furthermore, the rubric to the sixth pavan states: "This pavan has the proportion of three semibreves [each] bar, and moves in the same mode as the past pavan, and the value of all the breves you may find alone will be a bar" (Esta pavana es a proporcion de tres semibreves [por] compas, y va por los terminos de la pavana pasada, y todos los breves que hallareis solos valgan ahora un compas). Thus, Milan makes it quite plain that he considered his ternary piece a "pavan", and rules out the possibility of a galliard slipping past unnoticed or by mistake. Milan even stats that all breves found alone are perfect, in accordance to the mensural theory. Best wishes, Antonio To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Marvin/who nose?
Dear Howard, Rather the opposite: I mean casting our conceptions (as historicaly based as they might be) upon a specific case where the evidence contradicts them. In this particular case it means reviewing what we consider a pavan (the historic category) in the face of what Milan is telling: i.e. that HE considers certain fantasias as having pavan characteristics while, nevertheless, providing information to the contrary: speed and rhythmic organization. Thus, if we play Milan's sixth pavan as a pavan we may be reassured by our knowledge of how pavans were played that we are on the right path; yet we are not following Milan's specific instructions, thus contradicting prima facie evidence. This also holds for the remaining five pavans in what concerns tempo. Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: howard posner To: Lute mailing list Sent: Thursday, 27 August, 2009 23:41:07 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Marvin/who nose? On Aug 27, 2009, at 9:29 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > You are quite right, but that was not the point I was trying to > make. Rather than questioning how to manipulate the piece, I was > trying to show the inconsistency of forcing a historic category > into a context that contradicts it explicitly. Maybe I'm missing the context. By "forcing a historic category" etc. do you mean playing a pavana as if it's a pavana because it's called a pavana? Or something else? -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose?
Dear Howard, You are quite right, but that was not the point I was trying to make. Rather than questioning how to manipulate the piece, I was trying to show the inconsistency of forcing a historic category into a context that contradicts it explicitly. With best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: howard posner To: Lute mailing list Sent: Thursday, 27 August, 2009 14:40:11 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who nose? On Aug 27, 2009, at 12:21 PM, Antonio Corona wrote: > "They must be played with a somewhat fast air [so much for the slow > pavan] and it is required that they be played twice or > thrice" (Debense tañer con el compas algo apresurado, y requierense > tañer dos o tres veces). Milan does not say "you may", he states > "you must". Or "you should" or "you ought" > In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how > slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played > somewhat fast in general usage. Three beats to one step works rather like a more modern march in 6/8 (you do have to assume that "pavana" really means "pavana" and not play the last two bars as a hemiola, or not care about it); the notes go by quite quickly but the steps are slow. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?
Dear Friends, >Quite right, Dana, but if memory serves Milan introduces the 6 Pavanas >by saying that the next six fantasias are pavanas. The there's the >problem of pavans being generally in duple and some of the Milan >pavanas are in triple. Dana: I am away from my copy of milan, so I cant confirm your memorys yea or nay; but no matter, the issue is one of performance practice. I can confirm that Milan states in quite certain terms that "the six following fantasias, as I said above, in their air and composition are alike to the same pavans that are played in Italy, and, since they resemble them in everything, let's call them pavans". (Estas seis fantasias que se siguen, como arriba os dije, parecen en su aire y compostura a las mismas pavanas que en Italia se tañen, y pues en todo remedan a ellas, digamosles pavanas). I believe we should be wary of considering these pieces as typical examples of pavans just from Milan's loose quotation which, besides, makes it clear that, in his view, they were first and foremost fantasias, to which we can add the fact that the sixth one (whose tune is not by him: "las dos que se siguen [i.e. the last two] la sonada de ellas se hizo en Italia" ) cannot be construed in any way as responding to the structure of a pavan (it has, in fact, the typical structure of a galliard). Dana: All renaissance 'artists' had to contend with the conservative nature of the church; anything 'new' was risque (just ask copernicus or galileo). The natural result was constant references to antiquity, and thematic borrowing from the works of your contemporaries to an extent that startles moderns who are used to the constrictions of copyright. The quodlibet form seen at the end of the 15c takes this to an absurd level which is seen in many of the works of PDQ Bach and also in musical medleys. This is not the case with Milan, he was a self-recognized amateur player and composer, moving in the circle of the court of Germaine de Foix, widow of Ferdinand, and composing and playing strictly within this aristocratic entourage, as it can be shown by his autobiographical book "Libro del Cortesano" (nothing to do with Castigione's). Dana: Pavanna are dances, they are slow dances with the steps taken on the tactus, typically one step per modern measure. Lots of time for slow graceful showing off by the strutting peacocks. No matter if the tactus is subdivided triply or duply. As I stated above, the sixth "pavan" is by no means such a dance. As far as I can recall, I have never seen a pavan in triple time with the characteristic hemiola of the galliard. Speed has nothing to do with rythmic structure. Dana: Fantasias in various forms are to be expected, forms are a useful compositional restriction, guidelines to work within. But the essencial freedom of a Fantasia lies in its theme(s), original matter, treated whimsically; showing all the the art of the composer (hopefully sufficient art to leave room for the performers art). Not necessarily for Milan, who stated that fantasias are called thus because they proceed from the author's fancy. From this perspective, if Milan composed the pieces in question, they indeed proceed from his fancy, including the polemic sixth pavan, whose tune is not by him, but "the composition over it" (la compostura sobre la sonada de ellas es mia). Dana: Dances often have structure, with sections needing repeat here, but not there because of the choreography. The use of the bar is very irregular in this music from its inception, section marking is often unclear, even well into the editions of Playford; having a choreography is an immense help to decideing what sections need repeats; sometimes a lyric will serve the same purpose. Again, Milan´s indications leave no room for doubt: "They must be played with a somewhat fast air [so much for the slow pavan] and it is required that they be played twice or thrice" (Debense tañer con el compas algo apresurado, y requierense tañer dos o tres veces). Milan does not say "you may", he states "you must". Dana: Accidents of history deny us complete knowledge of the choreographies for all dance music, in some cases we have worthy choreographies begging for suitable music (eg, Mdm Sosilias Allemande). In some cases we have the challenge of reconciling music to choreography where typos are suspect (Arbeau Bransle de la guerre, over the page turn an obvious pick-up note is not composited on the preceding page where is should have been but instead leads off the next and produces one-too-many notes and much confusion for all). Dana Emery Again, I must stress that we cannot be too dogmatic and should consider each case from the point of view of the available evidence concerning each piece, composer, etc. In this particular case, I would be hard pressed to explain how slow pavans with the structure of a galliard could be played somewhat fast i
[LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who knows?
Dear friends More about Milan, I don´t recall the exact quote (I´m not at home at the moment to verify the reference), but Milán does state explicitely that the pavans should be played twice. Thus, there is at least some evidence about the use of repeats by Milan. I agree with Ariel, we should not be too dogmatic, lest we err on the side of misinterperting literaly due to our ignorance (and here I should stress OUR) about many aspects of perfomance practice in sixteenth-century Spain. Best wishes Antonio - Original Message From: ariel abramovich To: Edward Martin ; Omer Katzir Cc: Omer Katzir ; Lutelist Sent: Wednesday, 26 August, 2009 8:50:46 Subject: [LUTE] Re: Edward Martin/who knows? Hi Omer, Surely Ed will appreciate that you've taken the time to say a word on his work. I'm of the opinion of defending our musical ideas making music rather than with words, so I won't say much here... About Milán: He doesn't say anything on repeating or not, but he is definitively flexible about many other things all over his book, so I don't see a reason for not repeating. Hoppy Smith does it, for instances even only with one part of the piece, and it can be an interesting effect (in case you do have something to say, of course). As for the fantasia as a story, let's go back to Milán: "solo procede de la fantasía e industria del autor que la hizo", which means that has no other origin that the author's imagination, and therefore there's no much restrictions about how we can face them today. Not in Milán's book, at least. We can do pretty much whatever we want with it, and there's no rules for breaking chords, dynamics or anything like that. There's nothing proper or correct... A simple matter of taste, I'm afraid. Milán gently offered to amateur players some tips on rubato, for example, which should be taken as a "mind opener", rather than a guide to play music in a very specific way (wish my English was better, sorry). Best, Ariel. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Dowland song paraphrases
Dear Rob - and David Thanks ever so much for such a nice and though-provoking contribution. As a matter of fact, I've been mulling over the meaning of some of the songs, especially the "Darkness" ones, and I believe there is much in them that does not not meet the eye. One of the pieces which I've been examining is No. 20, "Come heavy sleepe" , in which I have found a fascinanting use of numerology (not my contribution, it was Anthony Rooly who sparked the interest). Aside from all the historical context and Lucy of Bedford´s patronage which could help to support a view that Dowland eas as interested as, say Spencer, in Neo-Platonic lore, I have found the internal evidence overwhelming. David wonders if this piece might have an "obscure religious interpretation"; in my view it does have certain definte mystic undertones, not related to the Spanish tendency, but rather to the Ficino-Agricola-Dee variety, and portrays the soul in search of a reunion with its origin. Perhaps at some time I may be able to publish my interpretation of this song, which I find among the most beautiful of Dowland. Incidentally, in this work we find, for the first time, the Lachrima in a vocal context. Keep up the good work. Antonio - Original Message From: Rob MacKillop To: lute-cs. dartmouth. edu Sent: Friday, 12 December, 2008 8:38:25 Subject: [LUTE] Dowland song paraphrases David Hill has completed his paraphrases to Dowland's The First Booke of Songs - which I am delighted to say is now downloadable from the John Dowland website: [1]http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm David would like me to point out that ''these are only MY interpretations of the meanings of the songs, and I may well be wrong, or simply unaware of certain facts or bits of info, folklore or other Jacobean titbits. You could perhaps tell folk that all suggestions of alternative readings/interpretations will be considered (like a rather better-informed early musical Wikipedia'' I'm sure these paraphrases will be of tremendous help to singers and their accompanists, and I urge you to encourage performers to download these texts. And - it need hardly be said - a huge Thank You to David Hill for taking the time to complete Book 1. I understand that Book 2 is well on its way, with the others to follow. As ever, comments/discussion welcome. Rob MacKillop [2]www.johndowland.co.uk -- References 1. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/songs.htm 2. http://www.johndowland.co.uk/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco and the viola da mano
Dear all, The celebrated maker Lorenzo Gusnasco da Pavia made quite a number of instruments for many Italian nobles, especially for Isabella d'Este, including several viols (whatever this may mean in late 15th-century Italy). A point of interest here is that among her servants we find Giovanni Angelo Testagrossa: does this ring a bell? In 1503 Testagrossa left her service taking with him three bowed viols and two "spagnoli", whose probable identity as plucked instruments is supported by an a Ferrara inventory of 1511, where "violoni alla napolitana" are listed under "lauti" and thus distinguished from bowed ones. Lorenzo da Pavia made a "viola spagnola" for Leonora Gonzaga of Urbino in 1509-1510. Things begin to getinteresting in the correspondance between Isabella d'Este and Lorenzo da Pavia where we find references to another name that may be germane to the issue: "Spanish lute" (liuto alla spagnola): When Isabella ordered one, Lorenzo mentioned that these instruments were: "... lutes made in Spain, and the Spanish give them a certain sound in one way or another to make them sing, which they do not know how to do here". Later on Isabella specifies some of the characteristics she wants the instrument to have: "remember to make the the body completely in Spanish manner without giving it anything of the Italian fashion" (fare el corpo tutto alla spagnola senza dargli niente del italiano). Tantalizing A splendid study of Lorenzo da Pavia, where all this information appears, was published by William Prizer, "Isabella d'Este and Lorenzo da Pavia, 'Master Instrument Maker' ". _Early Music History_ 2 (1982), pp. 87-127. Another intersting study by the same author is _Courtly Pastimes. The Frottole of Marchetto Cara_, UMI Research Press, Ann Arbor, Michigan, 1980 Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: Rob MacKillop <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Lute List Sent: Tuesday, 3 June, 2008 12:30:25 PM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco and the viola da mano I understand the introduction of the vihuela into Spanish Neapolitan provinces helped the spread of the Italian viola da mano, but where does Francesco da Milano come in? Did he have a connection with the south? Or did the instrument spread to the north as well? How popular was the viola da mano? Any other publications for it? And can anyone flesh out the story of one of the d'Este family ordering a 'Spanish viola da mano' but having to settle for an Italian one instead? I can't remember the facts. I might copy this to the vihuela group as there are some people there who are not subscribers here. Rob MacKillop -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: theorbo in Spain?
Dear Howard, According to Martin McLeish, in his article: "An Inventory of Musical Instruments at the Royal Palace, Madrid, in 1602", GSJ, 21, 1968, pp. 108-128, Joan de Rojas Carrión, royal "violero" compiled an inventory on May 13 1602 (should I wait for the anniversary?) where the theorbos under consideration are mentioned. The document is part of the collection known as the "Barbiery papers", now at the Biblioteca Nacional Madrid (MSS 14017/6). This is further confirmed in: Francisco Asenjo Barbieri, _Documentos sobre música española y epistolario (Legado Barbieri)_, edited by Emilio Casares, Madrid: Fundación Banco Exterior, 1988, vol 2, p. 72, where the inventory is named as: "Instrumentos de música, tasados por Juan de Rojas Carrión, violero en Madrid, a 13 de mayo de 1602 (...)". The inventory mentions, among may other instruments (including several lutes), a thirteen-course " tiorvia with two heads and to bridges (...) made in Padua" and "a tiorvia with two heads made like a lute" of which no further details are given, except that the back is varnished, with stripes of ivory, which is valued at 300 reales. It would seem, therefore, that we are indeed talking of Felipe II. With best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: howard posner <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: LUTELIST Sent: Sunday, 11 May, 2008 8:13:50 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: theorbo in Spain? On May 1, 2008, at 6:41 AM, Manolo Laguillo wrote: > In the DICCIONARIO DE INSTRUMENTOS MUSICALES, Barcelona 2001, under > 'tiorba', the author of it, Ramon Andres, after mentioning an inventar > of possesions of Felipe II, the king of Spain, where two theorbos > figure, Are we really talking about Felipe II here? He died in 1598, which seems early for theorbos to be in Spain. Felipe III died in 1621 and Felipe IV in 1665. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Sent from Yahoo! Mail. A Smarter Email http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/nowyoucan.html
[LUTE] Re: Pavana
Dear Stephen, As Howard Posner rightly pointed out, Pisador's pavan is based upon "La gamba" tenor and it is definitely in triple time. This is not the only case where triple-time pieces are notated in what seems to be a duple time notation in Spanish sources, Mudarra's galliard being the first example that spings to mind, but there is a further consideration that we should reflect upon: the normal white mensural notation for voices used certain mensuration signs that we could interpret in modern (and anachronical) terms as belonging to either duple or triple time, but the barring in the tablature does not carry a similar implication. The only function of the said bars is to provide a frame of reference for a regular pulse, not to define a series of accents. Thus, a transcription into modern notation should take into account the internal structure of the piece and not the external frame, otherwise it would be a misrepresentation. In this particular case the transcription in triple time is correct and proper. With best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: Stephen Kenyon <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, 13 April, 2008 8:04:07 AM Subject: [LUTE] Pavana Greetings. I notice the Pisador vihuela Pavana muy llana para taner is notated in triple time in the Schott guitar edition, which says that the original was given in duple. Normally pavans are duple, but looking at it it does seem to insist on being triple (or is that just knowing it so long in triple?). Three questions pertain: - should this piece really be in triple time? - if so how does it end up in triple: is it a function of its being from an earlier time than many pavans we are used to? - is there an implication for tempo, eg should it be quicker than the stately progress we think of for the standard duple pavan? Umpteen thankings, Stephen To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html ___ Yahoo! For Good helps you make a difference http://uk.promotions.yahoo.com/forgood/
[LUTE] Re: Modern edition of vihuela songs
Dear all, Monumentos VII is an edition of Mudarra, and we should not forget Charles Jacobs' edition of El Maestro (University Park, Pennsylvania: Pennsylvania State University Press, 1971). Best wishes, ACA - Original Message From: Arthur Ness <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; lutelist Net Sent: Wednesday, 11 April, 2007 9:03:10 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Modern edition of vihuela songs You're probably thinking about the edition by Charles Jacobs (OUP 1978) of the Fuenllana. Also Monumentos de la musica Espanola VII (Fuenllana) and XXII-XXIII (Valderrabano). - Original Message - From: "Roman Turovsky" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "lutelist Net" ; "Alfonso Marin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:20 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Modern edition of vihuela songs > All Fuenllana songs were published in notation 20+ > years ago, in one thick > volume. I don't recall the publisher off hand. > RT > > - Original Message - > From: "Alfonso Marin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "lutelist Net" > Sent: Wednesday, April 11, 2007 9:14 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Modern edition of vihuela songs > > >> Dear all, >> >> I am thinking about editing the songs for vihuela and >> voice into an >> edition more suitable for performance than the >> original facsimiles. I >> have special interest on the songs without mensural >> notation were the >> singing part is indicated by red cyphers. >> I would like to know of somebody has done this >> already (entirely or >> partially), otherwise my project would be worthless. >> Besides that does someone know of a modern edition of >> the songs of >> Fuenllana and Valderrabano? >> >> Thanks! >> >> Greetings, >> >> Alfonso >> >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> > > > > > _ > Need personalized email and website? Look no further. > It's easy > with Doteasy $0 Web Hosting! Learn more at > www.doteasy.com > > > ___ Yahoo! Mail is the world's favourite email. Don't settle for less, sign up for your free account today http://uk.rd.yahoo.com/evt=44106/*http://uk.docs.yahoo.com/mail/winter07.html
[LUTE] Re: Tablature of Pisador
Dear Stewart and Kate,
As Stewart rightly points out, the sign in question is indeed a breve with a
fermata ("corona" or "coronado" in Spanish, no pun intended) upon it, used
normally to indicate the end of a piece. You can find this combination of signs
in all of the six vihuela-books published in Castile, with precisely this
function. The exception is Milan's "El Maestro", where, in the fantasias de
consonancias y redobles and tentos, it is meant to indicate that the chord upon
which it appears is to be held a bit longer. Milan states: "stop playing a
little in each fermata " (parar de tañer en cada coronado un poco). Curiously
enough, Milan does not use the fermata at the end of his pieces. I agree with
Stewart that there is no relation between this sign and repeats, and that
Pisador uses it in the diferencias simply to mark the end of each one.
With best regards,
Antonio
- Original Message
From: Stewart McCoy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To: Lute Net
Sent: Sunday, 28 January, 2007 5:57:38 AM
Subject: [LUTE] Tablature of Pisador
Dear Kate,
You make an interesting observation. The sign you describe is a
breve with a pause or fermata above it. If you look further on in
the book, you will see the breve used on its own, e.g. for the last
chord of folio 6. Sometimes the breve has a fermata above it over a
chord, e.g. the last chord of folio 16v. There's nothing surprising
in that: just an indication that you are at the end of a section or
piece.
What is surprising is the use of the fermata and breve in Conde
Claros. The breve cannot mean a breve or any other note value,
because it doesn't come above a note. I think it simply marks the
end of a section, although you could say that it's redundant, if
there
are double bars doing that already.
You wonder whether the sign has any significance with regard to
repeats. I don't think it does. If you look at the songs from folio
9 onwards, the breve and the breve with fermata seem to be used
randomly, now the one, now the other. It doesn't seem to matter
whether there is one line of text, or two (which would necessitate a
repeat).
I have had a quick flick through the book, and I cannot see a
fermata over any other note value. My guess is that all the little
blocks used for printing fermatas had a breve on as well, because
that would be the normal note value used at the end of a piece,
irrespective of its true length. I don't believe that the fermata
meant, as it does today, that a note should be held on a bit longer.
Many of the sections in Conde Claros end with quick notes, and it
wouldn't make much musical sense to keep interrupting the flow.
Many thanks for your useful contribution. I hope you enjoy taking
part on the list.
Best wishes,
Stewart McCoy.
- Original Message -
From: "Kate Melhuish" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
To:
Sent: Sunday, January 28, 2007 12:49 AM
Subject: [VIHUELA] Tablature of Pisador
> Greetings,
>
> This is my first post here. I was invited by Roman Turovsky.
>
> I am looking at Diego Pisador's Libro de Musica de Vihuela, the
Libro
> Primero, and the first piece Conde Claros. Every so often, I see
these
> symbols that sort of look like a modern fermata sitting on top of
a
> rectangle. Could these maybe be repeats? Looking closely, they
are
> directly over bars with more than one line. Sometimes the bars
have
> three lines, sometimes four. Could this maybe have something to
do
> with ending and starting repeats? I even made a trip to the
library
> hoping that good old Willi Apel might offer me some direction, but
I am
> still at a loss. Thanks to anyone who might know what this is.
> The Java Zinger
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[LUTE] Re: help with Spanish translation -- Ay que si por mi dolor
Dear Christopher, If my menory serves me right, these are the first lines form a villancico from the Cancionero de Palacio. I should have to look for my copy and verify. The two verses are a sort of conversation between a lovestruck shepherd and an unidentified companion, and could be translated as: - Your friend got married, shepherd John. - Oh yes, to my regret. Best wishes, Antonio - Original Message From: Christopher Schaub <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Friday, 28 April, 2006 4:41:37 PM Subject: [LUTE] help with Spanish translation -- Ay que si por mi dolor Hello all. I've been wracking my brain to try and figure this lyric out ... Desposose te tu amiga Juan Pastor Ay que si por mi dolor It's a short piece from Valderrabano's book. Any translation help is appreciated. - Chris - Christopher Schaub web: http://www.christopherschaub.com email: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: alternate and economy picking
--- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > in a previous post from arne keller - no subject was > given but he was asking for notation advise - he > says > that according to tinctoris, there was a change from > playing the lute with plectrum to plucking it with > the > fingertips during the second half of the l5th > century > and that the two methods continued side by side for > some time - even, it is suggested, with 6c. and 7c. > lutes. > > - does anyone know when finger plucking replaced > plectrum as the predominate style of play? > > - did it remain popular in some areas of europe for > a > longer period of time and diminish more rapidly in > others? > > on mikesoud site recently i found an interesting > explanation of precisely how the plectrum should be > properly used: > > "... For both speed and tone reasons, I suggest > approaching the instrument planning to use either > alternate picking or "economy picking". Alternate > picking means that on each stroke you switch between > downstrokes and upstrokes. Economy picking is > similar > to alternate picking, except that when you change > strings your next stroke is in the same direction > your > hand just moved." > > - are there references to "alternate" and "economy" > picking in lute literature - possibly identified > with > other names? > > - are there additional up/down picking patterns > recognized for the lute similar to the variety of > rasqueo available for the vihuela and baroque > guitar? > > grazie - bill > > > early music charango ... > http://groups.google.com/group/charango > > > > ___ > > Win a BlackBerry device from O2 with Yahoo!. Enter > now. http://www.yahoo.co.uk/blackberry > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?
Dear Roger, Since you acknowledge that you are merely playing Devil's advocate I shant worry too much about certain of the things you mention. I should like to point out, however, that there are more Spanish Medieval sources that mention the vihuela, besides some varieties of guitar about which we do not have a clear knowledge (sarracenica, morisca, latina, etc.). The point is that I believe that none of these sources intends to name a small five-course instrument fashioned out of an armadillo shell with reentrant tuning and played by strumming. Likewise, even if we call (as we still do) the guitar as a "vihuela" or "lira", we are aware that it is a poetic license and no one (at least in Mexico) would claim that "vihuela" is the proper and authentic name for the instrument. While it is true that Medieval vihuelas (bowed and plucked) do appear in literature and iconography, this fact in itself does not warrant extending the usage to other string instruments; otherwise why would they be so carefull to distinguish between "citola", "guitarra", "laud", and "vihuela" in their writings? Remember the famous list in the _Libro de Buen Amor_ you mention. With best wishes, Antonio --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "Lute Net" > Sent: Monday, December 05, 2005 9:01 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied > vihuela-viola-guitars come > charango? > > >> Out of curiosity, do you (or anyone here) know > approximately when the > word > >> vihuela dropped completely out of usage and > consciousness in Spain, and > then > >> also in the New World lands? Did it ever, in > fact? Current Mexican > Mariachi > >> bands employ a 5 course Vihuela (their name) but > I think that tradition > >> dates back to the early 1900's (only). Is there a > few hundred year span > and > >> gap where the word essentially disappears from > usage and application to > >> guitar-like instruments? > >> > >> Roger > >> > > > > Dear Eugene, > > > > The etymology of vihuela, according to Joan > Corominas, > > author of the most reliable etymological > dictionary of > > Spanish, runs more or less along these lines (I am > > quoting from memory): > > > > It comes, in the first instance from the Latin > "fides" > > (string) which later underwent various > transformations > > as "fidicula", "vitula", "viula", and finally > > "vihuela" (I may have skipped some stages, I can't > > remember just now). > > > > Later on, after the sixteenth century, the term > was > > also adopted to name the "guitarra española" (or > > baroque guitar), as shown by a goodly number of > > sources which use both terms interchangeably. > > Thereafter the usage became even more free, but it > was > > principally associated with the guitar -in > whatever > > manifestation- and instruments of this family. > Thus > > you have a 19th century Argentinian gaucho in > _Martin > > Fierro: stating that "aqui me pongo a cantar, al > > compás de mi vihuela", or 19th, 20th and > 21st-century > > mariachy bands in Mexico happily strumming a > "vihuela" > > that seems more related to a chitarra battente. > > Incidentally, "lira" has undergone a similar > process, > > at least in Mexico. > > > > With best wishes, > > Antonio > > > > > Antonio; > > this is what I suspected, that the term has been > applied to guitar-like > instruments non-stop since the late 15th century and > even earlier (14th > century, 1350, Juan Ruiz, (Archpriest of Hita), > Spanish/Castilian, in his > "Libro de buen amor" (The Book of Good Love), > mentioning vihuela de arco and > vihuela de penola). So anyone wanting to now limit > the term solely to the > early 16th century Spanish 6 courser, will have to > take their argument to > the last 500 years of Spanish nationals who've used > the term freely, plus > the nationals of all the New World lands, the > Caribbean, Central and South > America. People will have to convince _them_ that > they had no right to use > the word, and that they must repent for the > blasphemy and disrespect shown > to their vihuelista ancestors and their one and only > "true" vihuela. > > The implications of this seem clear to me. Calling > charango a vihuela, and > recognizing i
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango?
Dear Eugene,
The etymology of vihuela, according to Joan Corominas,
author of the most reliable etymological dictionary of
Spanish, runs more or less along these lines (I am
quoting from memory):
It comes, in the first instance from the Latin "fides"
(string) which later underwent various transformations
as "fidicula", "vitula", "viula", and finally
"vihuela" (I may have skipped some stages, I can't
remember just now).
Later on, after the sixteenth century, the term was
also adopted to name the "guitarra española" (or
baroque guitar), as shown by a goodly number of
sources which use both terms interchangeably.
Thereafter the usage became even more free, but it was
principally associated with the guitar -in whatever
manifestation- and instruments of this family. Thus
you have a 19th century Argentinian gaucho in _Martin
Fierro: stating that "aqui me pongo a cantar, al
compás de mi vihuela", or 19th, 20th and 21st-century
mariachy bands in Mexico happily strumming a "vihuela"
that seems more related to a chitarra battente.
Incidentally, "lira" has undergone a similar process,
at least in Mexico.
With best wishes,
Antonio
--- "Eugene C. Braig IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Indeed, although "vihuela" is a rather antiquated
> equivalent to "viola"; no
> modern orchestras refer to their bowed altos as
> "vihuela." I don't know
> that there are substantial gaps in the application
> of the term "vihuela" or
> its equivalents to various things. Regarding
> plucked things, it seems to
> me that the term was simply absorbed in reference to
> guitars with their
> burgeoning popularity at the end of the 16th c.
> "Viola da terra" still
> refers to an instrument remarkably similar to
> baroque-era 5-course guitars
> in modern Portugal. ...But I'd rather read the
> input of somebody who
> actually may have studied the etymology, Antonio
> perhaps.
>
> Best,
> Eugene
>
>
> At 03:05 AM 12/5/2005, gary digman wrote:
> >Am I mistaken in thinking that the word "vihuela"
> is equivalent in Spanish
> >to the word "viola" in Italian and was used to
> refer to any stringed
> >instrument, plucked or bowed ("vihuela de mano" and
> "vihuela de arco")?
> >
> >Gary Digman
> >
> >- Original Message -
> >From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >To: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> >Cc: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> "LUTELIST"
> >
> >Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 9:02 AM
> >Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied
> vihuela-viola-guitars come
> >charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
> >
> > >
> > > Out of curiosity, do you (or anyone here) know
> approximately when the word
> > > vihuela dropped completely out of usage and
> consciousness in Spain, and
> >then
> > > also in the New World lands? Did it ever, in
> fact? Current Mexican
> >Mariachi
> > > bands employ a 5 course Vihuela (their name) but
> I think that tradition
> > > dates back to the early 1900's (only). Is there
> a few hundred year span
> >and
> > > gap where the word essentially disappears from
> usage and application to
> > > guitar-like instruments?
> > >
> > > Roger
>
>
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
___
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[LUTE] Re: a vihuela named sue
Dar Bill, I suspect that Solis and Bracamonte were duped as well; acording to Dr. Prem the "original" document is found at a private archive (Archivo Condumex) at Mexico. Best wishes, antonio --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > here's a nice piece of buddhist logic for you: > > of the various parts which make up a vihuela - > waisted > sound chamber, neck, bridge, strings, etc. - is > there > one element that distinguishes it from any other > chordaphone? > > assuming it's not one part that turns any > chordaphone > into a - "ping!" - vihuela but the inter-dependence > of > all its parts ... i'd like to ask if it becomes > something else if i remove one of its strings? > > it wouldn't be suited for playing the 'magnificent > seven' compositions any more but would it still be a > vihuela? > > what if i removed the baroque filigree? ... expanded > its waist a little or made it smaller? ... carved it > from a single piece of wood instead of assembling it > from many? ... would it be any less of a vihuela if > it > retained all the constituent parts of an > acknowledged > vihuela but was 33'' long with 5 courses? > > most charango sources i've read acknowledge its > vihuela origin but insist that something happened to > merit its new name. what? ... when? ... is what we > have now significantly different from what it > started > out as? > > to eugene and antonio - > > i understand the infinitely patient eugene's > argument > against calling a charango a vihuela - historical > precedent ... cause confusion ... luthier respect > ... > etc. - and i want you to know i'm going to follow > that > logic when next i ask the bolivians why they give us > that awful name. > > and antonio ... i'm still too embarrassed to say > anything to you, really ... but the two people > mentioned by prof. prem - gabriela solís robleda and > pedro bracamonte y sosa - did they fake the document > or were they duped as well? > > ciao - bill > > pluck a piriah vihuela ... > http://groups.google.com/group/charango > > > > ___ > > To help you stay safe and secure online, we've > developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. > http://uk.security.yahoo.com > ___ WIN ONE OF THREE YAHOO! VESPAS - Enter now! - http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/features/competitions/vespa.html To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied vihuela-viola-guitars come charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
Dear Gary,
Yes, the word "vihuela" is equivalent to "viola", but
it would not serve for any string instrument: a lute
is a "laúd", a cittern is a "citara" or "citra", a
theorbo is a "tiorba", etc., etc.
Best wishes,
Antonio
--- gary digman <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Am I mistaken in thinking that the word "vihuela" is
> equivalent in Spanish
> to the word "viola" in Italian and was used to refer
> to any stringed
> instrument, plucked or bowed ("vihuela de mano" and
> "vihuela de arco")?
>
> Gary Digman
>
> - Original Message -
> From: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> To: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Cc: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>;
> "LUTELIST"
>
> Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 9:02 AM
> Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied
> vihuela-viola-guitars come
> charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
>
>
> >
> > - Original Message -
> > From: "EUGENE BRAIG IV" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > To: "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > Cc: "bill kilpatrick"
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "LUTELIST"
> >
> > Sent: Sunday, December 04, 2005 6:58 AM
> > Subject: [LUTE] Re: For Bill -- Small bodied
> vihuela-viola-guitars come
> > charango? -- was Re: Bad translation
> >
> >
> > > I don't think you're quite getting my point,
> Roger. I don't perceive
> six
> > as any kind of magic number to make a chordophone
> player a "real man"; I'm
> > perfectly happy with as few as four, and, if I
> could score a bass
> > colascione, I would happily enjoy three. My point
> is that an instrument
> > type, in all its diverse conceptualizations in all
> the heads of their
> > builders and makers, are named whatever people are
> calling them. This
> isn't
> > Linnean systematics, so any conceptual heritage to
> any instrument type is
> > not necessaruly relevant in their naming.
> > >
> > > It doesn't matter if there is a direct line
> between the diverse
> > instruments pictured as "vihuela" in the 16th c.
> and the charango; there
> is
> > nothing like genetic material and Darwinian
> evolution preserving the
> essence
> > of 16th-c. vihuela in modern derivatives. By the
> time things called
> > "charango" were being built, the things called
> "vihuela" in the 16th c.
> had
> > been gone from the memories of musicians for
> generations. When the thing
> > called "vihuela" in 16th-c. Spain was active,
> nothing quite exactly like
> the
> > modern charango was in use, even if the
> differences between charango and
> > those old things were relatively trivial. Of
> course, the name "vihuela"
> has
> > been active since, having been absorbed by
> guitar-like things used in folk
> > musics, but those modern vihuelas are not the same
> instrument type as that
> > used in the 16th c, just as my 6-string guitars
> are not the same
> instrument
> > type as the guitars of the 16th or 17th c.
> > >
> > > I don't have anything against all the diverse
> instruments of the world,
> > and I take no issue with Bach being played by the
> bayan or the de Murcia
> > fandango being played on the charango if the
> performer can make it happen
> > and is sincere. ...But playing Bach on a bayan
> doesn not make a bayan a
> > pipe organ in spite of the keyboard. I don't like
> the renaming of an
> > instrument type in disregard of any names with
> precedent. I'm
> particularly
> > close to instruments named things like "mandolin",
> "mandolino",
> > "armandolino", etc. The thing Vivaldi, Handel, or
> Scarlatti would have
> > recognized as "mandolino" was misunderstood for
> centuries after it fell
> into
> > disuse, renamed things like "mandore" or
> "pandourina" by modern curators
> > because it didn't look like the things they knew
> as "mandolin." This had
> > the unfortunate side effect of isolating a rich
> tradition and body of
> > 18th-c. repertoire from the instrument type for
> which it was intended. I
> > simply regard renaming perfectly good, existing
> > > instrument types without precedent a bad
> policy, regardless of their
> > conceptual ancestry.
> > >
> > > Best,
> > > Eugene
> > >
> >
> >
> > Out of curiosity, do you (or anyone here) know
> approximately when the word
> > vihuela dropped completely out of usage and
> consciousness in Spain, and
> then
> > also in the New World lands? Did it ever, in fact?
> Current Mexican
> Mariachi
> > bands employ a 5 course Vihuela (their name) but I
> think that tradition
> > dates back to the early 1900's (only). Is there a
> few hundred year span
> and
> > gap where the word essentially disappears from
> usage and application to
> > guitar-like instruments?
> >
> > Roger
> >
> >
> >
> > To get on or off this list see list information at
> >
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > No virus found in this incoming message.
> > Checked by AVG Free Edition.
> > Version: 7.1.362 / Virus Database: 267.13.11/191 -
> Release Date: 12/2/2005
> >
> >
>
>
>
__
[LUTE] Sad news for Bill ....
Dear Bill, I have received confirmation from Dr. Prem that the "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Joseph de San Buenaventura is indeed a 20th-century fake. I'm sorry to confirm my first impression of this purported source. Here is the relevant text from Dr. Prem's reply: Estimado Dr. Corona, [...] gracias por su interés en esta materia. Para contestar sus preguntas acerca del documento que mencionó cito de mi artículo los párrafos que resumen la familia de los documentos falsificados: The known members comprise the following texts: 2. "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab, por fray Joseph de San Buenaventura" (cited here as "Buenaventura"), which is claimed in the text to have been written in 1725. Gabriela Solís Robleda and Pedro Bracamonte y Sosa (1994) published the text with their commentaries [...] Three of these manuscripts comprise homogeneous narratives, but "Buenaventura" consists of a collection of various independent narratives, purportedly assembled by its author in part from earlier sources, in part being eyewitness himself. [...] The first two manuscripts contain the story of the famous Spanish sailor Gonzalo de Guerrero, narrated by himself. Manuscripts 3 and 4, and part of 2, concern the history of Maya groups that resided in the inaccessible region of the Yucatán peninsula on the shores of Lake Petén Itzá. They describe, from the perspective of Franciscan missionaries with vested interests in extending colonial domination over them, an event that was finalized by their military conquest in 1697. Regarding certain comments on your last message: - bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > i agree with you entirely on what > constitutes > a vihuela. i don't know how much you're going to > enjoy being associated with the charango, however. > i > would hate to see your beautiful site being trashed > simply because you acknowledge it - the charango - > as > being part of the family. Since Roger's working definition of what constitues a vihuela is so broad and free, I see no point in trying to discuss any further the matter, except to point out that, from such a point of view, any plucked-string instrument with neck can be called with whatever name you please. You may call your charango a vihuela, a lute, a gittern, a citole, a vina or a bouzouky, but bear in mind that you are doing so from a perspective that fails to take into account historical distinctions, as well as the usage among contemporary players and makers, not to mention the rest of the society of the time. I quote Roger's working definition: "my working definition of "vihuela" is quite free and broad. I most often group together _all_ vihuela-viola-guitarra-guitars and often even gitterns and lutes, whether 4, 5, or 6 course (or single stung), plucked and bowed, long-neck or short-neck, smooth-curve or waist-cut, rosettes or C holes, thin ribs or thick, many styles of peg-box, played on the arm, lap or leg, small, medium, large, and extra-large, etc, etc." Again, your comments: > i have no idea how many of the others on the list > will > look at the photos but i don't think it will change > many minds - alas. similarities between what is > illustrated there and what i'm intermittently > strumming as i type, will simply not be accepted. i > mean, will not be. your point about modern, > assembly > line perceptions of individual historical > instruments > is entirely accurate. i don't mean this in any way > to > be derogatory but for most of our friends on the > list, > superficial consideration - what appears on top - > matters most. As a matter of fact, I do know all of these vihuela illustrations, and then some, as you can verify in my article on vihuela organology published in: Aux origines de la guitare: la vihuela de mano, les cahiers du museé de la musique 5, Parìs: cité de la musique, 2004, pp. 16-28. In this book there is also a splendid article on vihuela iconography by Florence Gétreau. So, as you can see, my opinions are also based upon the evidence provided by iconographic sources. I´m sorry, but I cannot accept size as the only element that could establish a link between small instruments from the Middle Ages, Renaissance and contemporary Andean folk instruments; it's very much the same perspective as outlined above and to paraphrase you, regarding size as the crucial factor, is it not looking only at the superficial? With best wishes, Antonio P.S. About your signature ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
Dear Bill, Perhaps you would care to visit the following page. http://journals.cambridge.org/action/displayAbstract?fromPage=online&aid=43765# Unfortunately the links therein do not seem to work with my browser, but an abstract of the article concerned with this page states: "Research Article THE CANEK MANUSCRIPT AND OTHER FAKED DOCUMENTS Hanns J. Prem Seminar für Völkerkunde, Universität Bonn, Römerstrasse 164, D-53117 Bonn, Germany Abstract During the last two decades, four manuscripts have surfaced, all purportedly of sixteenth- to eighteenth-century origin and each describing historical episodes of the contact between the Maya and Spaniards. Although some of them received scholarly attention and have been used as authentic sources of Maya history and culture, their identification as modern fakes can be established beyond a reasonable doubt. The texts show characteristics identical to the Spanish translation of Sylvanus G. Morley's The Ancient Maya (1947), and they possess specific information and illustrative material (i.e., Mayan hieroglyphs) that were drawn from this work, indicating that these manuscripts were created between 1950 and 1965." I shall try to establish contact with Herr Prem to find out if the Joseph de San Buenaventura is one of these four manuscripts. With best wishes, Antonio ___ WIN ONE OF THREE YAHOO! VESPAS - Enter now! - http://uk.cars.yahoo.com/features/competitions/vespa.html ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
Dear Roger, I'm sorry to say that the charango story, endearing as it may be, simply does not hold water in what concerns the sixteenth-century plucked vihuela. The charango may probably be a local offshoot of the seventeenth-century five-course "guitarra española", or baroque guitar, which was also played by strumming -as the charango is- and shares a five-course, reentrant tuning. Its size and sound quality brings to mind the reference to a "chillador" (in all probability a small-sized baroque guitar) in Pablo Minguet's booklets of c. 1752, which mentions that it should be played with fast strumming to "make it squeak". We should also take into account the changing usage of the word "vihuela", which was freely used during and after the seventeenth century to mean, simply, "guitar". With best wishes, Antonio --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > - Original Message - > From: "Antonio Corona" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "bill kilpatrick" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Cc: "Lute Net" > Sent: Friday, December 02, 2005 11:29 AM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of > 11 short > stories.(who volunteers the next?) > > > > Dear Bill, > > > > The source you quote, "Historias de la Conquista > del > > Mayab", by a certain Fray Joseph de Buenaventura, > is > > mentionesd by Carlos Alberto Fernández Acevedo in > the > > web page in your signature in the following terms: > > > > "La historia surgió con motivo de un viaje que > realicé > > a México, a raíz del cual leí el hermoso libro > > "Historia Verdadera de la Conquista de la Nueva > > España" de Bernal Díaz del Castillo, soldado de > Hernán > > Cortés, que relató con maestría esa epopeya, y más > > precisamente el libro "Historias de la Conquista > del > > Mayab" de Fray Joseph de San Buenaventura, que > narra > > detalles de la conquista de la península de > Yucatán." > > > > It strikes me as utterly improbable that if such a > > book existed, it would be unavailable in the > principal > > libraries and archives of Mexico, especailly > taking > > into account what your source states about > consulting > > it "con motivo de un viaje que realicé a México", > that > > is "because of a trip I made to Mexico". Believe > me, I > > am very interested in finding out the truth of > this > > story, and I have looked for the said book at > every > > possible place. Failing to find it in the main > > repositories, and taking into account the fact > that no > > historian of the conquest and its times ever > mentions > > it, I am forced to believe that such a source is > > merely wishful thinking by the author mentioned > above. > > I am, of course, prepared to change my mind and > > apologize if the said book is produced somewhere, > > otherwise my opinion about it still stands. > > > > Incidentally, the facts mentioned on the web page, > > purportedly in Joseph de San Buenaventura´s book, > are > > not irksome in the least. I have written you off > list > > explaining why your interpretation is erroneous > and > > misleading; I wish I could be spared repeating it > > again. > > > > A word of advice: attemts at humor are not an > adequate > > substitute for facts. Show me the book. > > > > With best wishes, > > Antonio > > > > > > > Jeez, you mean after all this time the creepy-crawly > charango story might > actually be a fairy tale! And I was just about to > ask Bill the other day > exactly what kind of European pre-curser > iconographical evidence he was > looking for, i.e. simply diminutive vihuela-guitars? > If so, that's not so > hard to do/find, I have a bunch I could point to, > plucked and bowed. > > Hey Bill, I hope this doesn't shake your core > foundation myth too hard. I > kind of enjoy your obsessing over your little > charango's history and origin. > I have a nice tenor Uke, and I love it too, it's > sound, cute as a puppy, > endearing little creature -- whether it's literally > _made_ from one or not > ;') > > Roger > > > ___ Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
Dear Bill, The source you quote, "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab", by a certain Fray Joseph de Buenaventura, is mentionesd by Carlos Alberto Fernández Acevedo in the web page in your signature in the following terms: "La historia surgió con motivo de un viaje que realicé a México, a raíz del cual leí el hermoso libro "Historia Verdadera de la Conquista de la Nueva España" de Bernal Díaz del Castillo, soldado de Hernán Cortés, que relató con maestría esa epopeya, y más precisamente el libro "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" de Fray Joseph de San Buenaventura, que narra detalles de la conquista de la península de Yucatán." It strikes me as utterly improbable that if such a book existed, it would be unavailable in the principal libraries and archives of Mexico, especailly taking into account what your source states about consulting it "con motivo de un viaje que realicé a México", that is "because of a trip I made to Mexico". Believe me, I am very interested in finding out the truth of this story, and I have looked for the said book at every possible place. Failing to find it in the main repositories, and taking into account the fact that no historian of the conquest and its times ever mentions it, I am forced to believe that such a source is merely wishful thinking by the author mentioned above. I am, of course, prepared to change my mind and apologize if the said book is produced somewhere, otherwise my opinion about it still stands. Incidentally, the facts mentioned on the web page, purportedly in Joseph de San Buenaventura´s book, are not irksome in the least. I have written you off list explaining why your interpretation is erroneous and misleading; I wish I could be spared repeating it again. A word of advice: attemts at humor are not an adequate substitute for facts. Show me the book. With best wishes, Antonio --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > irksome data? ... plagued with anomalies? ... got a > round peg that just won't square up? ... try ... > > Probable-B-Spurious! > > yes'siree-bob ... just spray a little > Probable-B-Spurious on whatever it is that ain't > cuttin' it and your thesis troubles are over! > WARNING: while proved highly effective in the > symptomatic relief of anomalies and uncorroborated > data, Probable-B-Spurious has proved to be less > than > effective in diminishing their actual ... you know > ... > reality. > > they have a product like this in bolivia as well. > don't know what it's called but ... hey ... what's > in > a name? they don't know what to do with this > document > either. according to them the charango was invented > in the town of potosi in the 1600's by a local > indian > - name escapes me - after attending a soirée of hand > plucked vihuelas. not surprisingly, this allegation > of a mexican origin for their (!) national > instrument, > a century earlier, got the thumbs down treatment > from > everyone at the "Asociación Internacional del > Charango > (A.I.C)". > > - bill > > > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > Dear Roger, > > > > "Ortiz the musician" did in fact exist. He is > > mentioned by Bernal Diaz del Castillo, in his > > _Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva > > España_, as one of the soldiers who accompanied > > Cortez > > in his venture (not in the probably spurious > source > > Bill mentioned). There is room for confusion, > > though, > > with a second Ortiz (the first died, according to > > Bernal "at the hands of the indians", who was also > a > > musician: this second Ortiz set up what was > probably > > the first school of music and dancing in the New > > world, with an interesting circumstance: he > > requested > > that a new plot of land be accorded to him, > because > > next to the one he had, in the "Calle de las > Gayas", > > the first brothel in the New World was founded. > > > > With best wishes, > > Antonio > > > > > > > > --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > > - Original Message - > > > From: "Cinque Cento" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > > To: > > > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:43 PM > > > Subject: [LUTE] Bad translation of the first of > 11 > > > short stories.(who > > > volunteers the next?) > > > > > > > > > > Ortiz the musician > > > > > > > > by Nestor Guestrin, winner of the Concurso > > Hamlet > > >
[LUTE] Re: Bad translation of the first of 11 short stories.....(who volunteers the next?)
Dear Roger, "Ortiz the musician" did in fact exist. He is mentioned by Bernal Diaz del Castillo, in his _Historia verdadera de la conquista de la Nueva España_, as one of the soldiers who accompanied Cortez in his venture (not in the probably spurious source Bill mentioned). There is room for confusion, though, with a second Ortiz (the first died, according to Bernal "at the hands of the indians", who was also a musician: this second Ortiz set up what was probably the first school of music and dancing in the New world, with an interesting circumstance: he requested that a new plot of land be accorded to him, because next to the one he had, in the "Calle de las Gayas", the first brothel in the New World was founded. With best wishes, Antonio --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > - Original Message - > From: "Cinque Cento" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Thursday, December 01, 2005 2:43 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Bad translation of the first of 11 > short stories.(who > volunteers the next?) > > > > Ortiz the musician > > > > by Nestor Guestrin, winner of the Concurso Hamlet > Lima Quintana 2002 > > > > http://es.geocities.com/nestorguestrin/cuentos > > http://cuentos.nestorguestrin.cjb.net > > > > > > Thanks, this is interesting. But could you give a > little background please. > > Is this a piece of fiction written by Nestor (and > translated by you), or is > this Nestor's transcription of one of Ortiz's > auto-biographical works (and > here translated by you)? > > Is this the same Diego Ortiz who published in 1553 > the viol treatise titled; > "Tratado de glosas sobre cláusulas y otros géneros > de puntos en la música de > violones" > > Thanks > Roger > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ Yahoo! Model Search 2005 - Find the next catwalk superstars - http://uk.news.yahoo.com/hot/model-search/
[LUTE] Re: tele-Teaching
Dear Vance, According to the available evidence, vihuelas could be either strung with a double or a single first course; therefore you can be perfectly "historical" if you want to use a single first (I do). With best wishes, Antonio --- Vance Wood <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Rob: I agree with you it could be a very useful > endeavour. You play > Vihuela?, that's close enough. By the way, do you > use the doubled first > course? I understand that is the way the Vihuela is > designed but everyone I > have heard talk about the subject do not use the > doubled first course. > > Vance > - Original Message - > From: "Rob MacKillop" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: > Sent: Monday, November 21, 2005 3:47 PM > Subject: [LUTE] Re: tele-Teaching > > > > No, I really don't play the lute. Haven't got one. > Vihuela and guitar. So > > what am I doing on this list? Well, sometimes > something important and > > meaningful gets said. Enjoying the Sermisy thread. > > > > If enough people had webcams, it would be good to > have a masterclass > > scenario, or workshop. The technology is all > there, and broadband makes it > > feasible, but it is a strange new world for many > of us. I bet that most of > > us don't have broadband yet. It is still > expensive, and is not everywhere. > I > > don't have a digital camera. If I did I would put > videos on my vihuela > site. > > I really like watching hands moving over a > fretboard. Something mystical > > about it! And not just professional players. It > may be the teacher in me, > > but I still get a thrill out of watching and > listening to beginners. I > > really do love it. A simple phrase can just open > me up, if played with > > feeling. It doesn't have to be technically > correct. > > > > So that is my hope for the future. Instead of > talking and talking and > > talking via email, we all get in a virtual room > and pass the lute around. > > We're not quite there yet... > > > > Rob > > > > -Original Message- > > From: Arne Keller [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > > Sent: 21 November 2005 19:30 > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; 'Lutelist' > > Subject: Re: [LUTE] Re: tele-Teaching > > > > At 17:31 21-11-2005 -, Rob MacKillop wrote: > > >Video would be better. Possible too. How many > would be interested in > > >video lessons? Unfortunately, I don't play the > lute. > > > > > >Rob MacKillop > > >www.musicintime.co.uk > > > > No, I'd say: You play it very, very fortunately! > > > > Bast wishes, > > > > Arne Keller. > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > ___ To help you stay safe and secure online, we've developed the all new Yahoo! Security Centre. http://uk.security.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: *** SPAM *** Re: [VIHUELA] What is the historical vihuela?
Dear Monica, The Quito Instrument has been examined and measured by Egberto Bermudez, who published his results in: La vihuela: los ejemplares de París y Quito - The Vihuela: the Paris and Quito Instruments in _La guitarra española-The Spanish Guitar. Catálogo de la exposición realizada en Nueva York_ (The Metropolitan Museum of Art) y Madrid (Museo Municipal 1991-1992), Madrid: Sociedad Estatal Quinto Centenario, pp. 25-47, and later in: La vihuela de la iglesia de la Compañía de Jesús de Quito, Revista Musical Chilena (año XLVII, no. 179, 1993). pp. 69-77. According to Bermudez, the string-length is 727 cm., quite large for a solo instrument, but taking into account its late date, and the fact that it probably was the instrument used by Santa Mariana de Jesus to accompany herself singing devout songs, it seems likely that it may have been played strummed, despite the fact that it is a six-cpourse instrument. As you well know, at the turn of the 17th century things begin to become a bit confused regarding names and functions. Regarding Dias' attribution as a guitar, I would stand by what I have already mentioned in this list: according to what the sources tell us, during the main part of the sixteenth century six- and five-course instruments were called "vihuelas", while the four-course ones were considred "guitars". More about all this confusion in my article: The Vihuela and the Guitar in Sixteenth-Century Spain: a Critical Appraisal of Some of the Existing Evidence, The Lute (vol. 30, 1990), pp. 3-24 Therefore, in my view, we might either consider the Dias instrument as a latish five-course vihuela or, taking into account that it is precisely in 1580 that the references to strumming begin to appear, we could also consider it as one of the first specimens of the "guitarra española"; at this point I cannot find reasons to favour one interpretation over another. Incidentally, about musicologists geting to grips with vihuela organology, you may find it amusing that I was comissoned to write an article precisely on this topic for the cité de la musique: Lorganographie de la vihuela, in _Aux origines de la guitare: la vihuela de mano_, les cahiers du museé de la musique 5, Parìs: cité de la musique, 2004, pp. 16-28. I would hesitate to affirm that the guitar was the smallest member of the vihuela "consort family". We know that six-course vihuelas were indeed built in several sizes, including small ones, to which we should add that (save in Andalusia) the guitar fulfilled a different function in the hands of a totally different stratum of society. While it is true that they share certain characteristics of construction, this fact does not automatically make the vihuela and the guitar part of a same "family" in the sense as lutes, viols or recorders were: to my knowledge, there is no sixteenth-century reference before the appearance of "rasgado" to a consort where vihuela and guitar played together, with the exception of the last piece of Valderrabano's _Silva de Sirenas_, where it was probably called for on account of the simple accompaniment required. This is hardly a "consort" piece, but rather a virtuoso display of the vihuela with the guitar performing the simplest accompaniment we could think of (playing the same single chord over and over). With best wishes, Antonio --- Monica Hall <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > As far as the Quito instrument is concerned, few > people have actually seen > it, and as far as I am aware no one has actually > been allowed to examine it > thoroughly. Even the string length seems to be in > some doubt. > > > For those who adhere to the Dias' attribution to > a guitar, one's got to > > reverse the above procedure, with only one major > inconvenience of > accepting > > its "third eye" for a peg hole. It would certainly > help if more > > musicologists (who largely write about the > vihuela) could get to grips > with > > organology. > > If you are referring to me - I have visited the > R.C.M. and spent a lot of > time looking at this particular instrument- in so > far as one is able to > without being able to handle it. > > It seems to me that there is no way in which you can > prove that it was > originally a 6-course instrument rather than a > 5-course one. > > > In the time of Bermudo, the vihuela was, so to > say, a consort family > > instrument (as was its contemporary the lute in > Italy) and so the > > guitar was its smaller family member > > The problem with Bermudo (without going into too > much detail) is that he > seems to suggest that the "guitarra" is actually a > different instrument from > the vihuela, mentioning for example 5 & 6 course > instruments as well as the > 4-course one. There are separate chapters for it > along with the bandurria > and it is just possible, although like everything > else to do with the > vihuela/guitarra rather speculative, that he is > referring to a > mandola/mandora/vandola. > > > >> academic,
[LUTE] Re: Baxa and Guardame
Dear friends,
In my opinion, the "Guardame las Vacas" ground, as
treated by Narváez does indeed alternate binary and
ternary groupings, but not in a regular fashion.
Almost all of the first diferencia is organized in a
ternary pattern, save for the cadences at "bars" 10-12
and 20-22. This organization becomes evident from the
fact that the melodic pattern in "bars" 1-3 is
mirrored in "bars" 4-6 and their subsequent
repetitions.
The second differencia offers more variety, beginning
with two ternary groups followed by three binary, two
ternary and three binary ones. The repeat begins in a
similar fashion: two ternary groups, but is followed
by six binary ones plus the final chord. In this
case, besides the logic of the melody, the bass
provides a further guide as to the internal
organization.
The first section of the third diferencia is made up
by eight ternary groups, clearly indicated by the
repeated melodic motiff. The second begins with two
further ternary groupings, followed by a section
("bars" 16-18) which could be intrepreted either as
binary or ternary groupings. In my view, this passage
is still organized in ternary groups judging from the
way in which the "harmony" (if I may use
anachronistically the term, purely for pragmatic
reasons) shifts at the middle of bar 17. The remaining
three groups are binary, closing with the final chord.
The first half of the final diferencia is, again,
organized in eight ternary groups; a glance at the
rhythmic signs shows plainly the regular pattern in
which the motiffs are organized. This is followed by
an ascending scale which could be interpreted in
several ways; the one I find most logical is three
binry groups folowed by two ternary ones which leads
us into a transition before the final cadential
passage; this transition is made up of two ternary
groups and two binary ones. The final cadence begins
with a binary group followed by six ternary ones.
Finally, it is not altogether correct to thing of
tablature bars as having similar implications as the
modern bar-line in terms of accentuation. They serve
as a guide, dividing the piece into small sections of
similar duration, but they do not determine its
accentual organization. Perhaps this is better
illustrated in the editions of Capirola by Gombossi
and Da Milano by Ness, or -in Spanish sources- by the
"Gallarda" by Mudarra and the "Pavana muy llana para
tañer" of Pisador, both of them ternary pieces barred
entirely in "bars" of two.
Cheers,
Antonio
--- Ed Durbrow <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>
> On Oct 10, 2005, at 2:06 AM, Rob MacKillop wrote:
>
> > I must admit it came as a bit of a revelation to
> me that the
> > piece was based on threes and twos. I had known
> for decades that most
> > Spanish music alternates these groupings, but for
> some reason I never
> > applied it to 'Vacas', and I can't remember anyone
> else doing so
> > either. I
> > may be completely wrong. However, for me, it was a
> 'Duh!' moment.
> > How could
> > I have missed it for so long? And now I'm
> wondering if everyone
> > thinks I'm
> > crazy, and it has nothing to do with these
> groupings...The original is
> > notated entirely in twos.
>
> I had something similar happen with a Dalza piece
> recently. I'd
> always known where it went into two or three, but I
> suddenly got an
> insight that the twos were always in groups of
> threes, sometimes two
> groups of threes. It is like stepping up a level and
> seeing the big
> picture. And I felt exactly the same way, a bit
> embarrassed that I
> hadn't noticed such an 'obvious' organizational
> parameter earlier.
> cheers,
> PS. Your playing always sounds great to me, and the
> Guardame was no
> exception.
>
> Ed Durbrow
> Saitama, Japan
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> http://www9.plala.or.jp/edurbrow/
>
>
>
> --
>
> To get on or off this list see list information at
>
http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>
___
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[LUTE] Re: [VIHUELA] Re: jarana or xarano or ukulele
Does the subject line imply any relationship between the ukulele and the jarana? Best wishes Antonio --- Wayne Cripps <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > the ukulele is a european instrument, directly > linked > > to an early tradition. its arrival in the new > world > > is well documented and it hasn't changed a bit > since. > > its association with hawaii is so complete that > its > > hawaiian name is universally accepted to be its > real > > name. > > Apropos of nothing, I used to run a ukulele mail > list too. But it got pretty slow and I cosed it > down. > Now the uke action seems to be at > > http://www.fleamarketmusic.com/ > > I searched for vihuela there and did not come up > with anything. There are hits for baroque and > fleamarketmusic, so from this I can infer that > the uke is closer to baroque guitar... > > Wayne > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ How much free photo storage do you get? Store your holiday snaps for FREE with Yahoo! Photos http://uk.photos.yahoo.com
Re: Fw: Byrd
An unlikely combination, unless you wish them to kill each other... --- Roman Turovsky <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > VILLA, ZAPATA, CARRANZA & HUERTA. > RT > > > > The vihuela quartet is forming. does > anyone > > > have a good idea for a > > > name for a vihuela quartet? Please, do not call > it > > > the "vihuela quartet". > > > > > > ed > > > > "los charangos"...? > > > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell > of a creepy crawly..." - > Don Gonzalo de Guerrero (1512), "Historias de la > Conquista del Mayab" by Fra > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > > > > > > > > ___ > > Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC > calling worldwide with > voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > > > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > ___ > $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB > Transfer > 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and > much more. > Signup at www.doteasy.com > > > ___ Yahoo! Messenger - NEW crystal clear PC to PC calling worldwide with voicemail http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: cement
Dear Manolo and friends, I am surprised, if your friend consulted Corominas, to read that he finds the origins of "vihuela" obscure. Corominas does make a rather good case for deriving "vihuela" from the Latin "fides", string, via fidula, fidicula, vitula, viula, etc. (I cannot remember exactly as I am quoting from memory). In any case, both terms, vihuela and viola, derive from the same root and were even used intercheangaby on occassion from the 15th to the 17th centuries. On the other hand, the spelling varied widely since the written Spanish of the sixteenth century was more phonetic than nowadays when we have adopted the French etymologic rules (but that is another matter). The point is that you will find quite a variety of ways to call the instrument: vihuela, viguela, viyuela, biguela, bihuela, etc. With best wishes, Antonio --- Manolo Laguillo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Dear list, dear Mathias, dear Arthur, > > I asked a friend, who teaches linguistics (more > specifically > lexicography) at the university in Madrid. > He said: The suffix "-uelo" (now it is in > masculinum) as a diminuitive > comes from the latin diminuitive form "-olo". The > "o" at the beginning > of "-olo" is short, and therefore diphtongs to "ue" > in spanish. > Then he looked into the main spanish etimologic > dictionary (the > multivolume "Corominas"), and found the recognition > of an ignorance: the > origins of the word "vihuela" are very obscure. My > friend told me that > every time he reads such acceptances of ignorance in > the said dictionary > he takes 'cum grano sali' the etimologies that > follow, because they can > be quite bizarre. > Regarding "-uela" in the case of "vihuela", he does > not think that it > could have a diminuitive meaning. > But he agrees with the possibility of a relationship > between "viola" and > "vihuela". > I told him about "Venezuela" as a diminuitive of > "Venecia" (=Venice), > and he was quite surprised. He said: "OK, toponimics > are not my > speciality..." > > Saludos from Barcelona, > > Manolo Laguillo > > PS By the way, for those with enough fluency in > spanish, there is a > modern edition (not a facsimil, but much better, a > transcription) of the > first edition (1611) of the famous dictionary by > Covarrubias, the first > for the spanish language: > > http://www.altafulla.com/ad_lit/covarrubias.htm > > > > > Mathias Rösel wrote: > > >>>I lack control of Spanish, unfortunately, but > with -uela is a > >>>diminuitive ending, doesn't that suggest that > vihuela is from a word > >>>like VIHA? > >>> > >>> > > > >actually, I was under the impression that *vihuela* > is just another form > >of the word *viola*, with the letter E signifying > the lengthened vowel U > >(vihooola). Once the stress was shifted from U to > E, the last four > >letters have come to resemble the Spanish > diminuitive ending -uela. > > > >Cheers, > > > >Mathias > >-- > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at > >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > > > > > -- > ___ Yahoo! Messenger - want a free and easy way to contact your friends online? http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Nylgut
Dear Mimmo, We know, and value your contributions to string technology. Pay no heed to words spoken in haste or ignorance; I for one, will still welcome your thoughts and advice. With best wishes Antonio --- Mimmo Peruffo <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Bad answer > My intention was just to make a simply precisation > on the nylgut's > history, no more. > 'Me- me' is not into my life, peoples that well > know me and my life > personally already > understand what I mean. > I have wrote that I discovered nylgut just for > right information, not > for my own > gloria. I never had such necessity, please. > All the rest that I wrote were just to make > light arround some of the > nylgut > leggends that I have seen somtime and to give > thecnical suggestions on the > use of the materia. Is this so wrong??. But perhaps > next time is better to > leave > things so... > > I have seen that you are in France: > Is the Savarez your company?? > Mimmo > > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Vihuela, charango and armadillos. Long post . Olim Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear Alain, Howard, Roman and Stephen, Thanks ever so much for your comments. I will now rest my case. With my best wishes for the season for all the list, Antonio ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Vihuela, charango and armadillos. Long post . Olim Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
--- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > you say "potato" - i say "potato" ... let's call > the > whole thing off. > > regards - bill > Dear Bill, I shall be pleased to oblige. Best regards, Antonio ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Vihuela, charango and armadillos. Long post . Olim Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear bill, Some final thoughts on this matter. Regarding the name applied to the vihuela by the Quechua Indians, I should like to quote what Robert Stevenson has to say in this respect: "So largely did the drum idea loom that when the Spaniards introduced the guitarra and the vihuela the Quechua called them ttinya, the same word which they applied to any hand drum". (The Music of Peru, Los Angeles, 1956 2/1960, p. 18) In fact, what happened was that the natives, lacking a word to designate the new instruments (there were no string instruments in the pre-Columbian cultures of America), applied the name of the instrument that it resembled most, adapting it to describe them in the closest possible terms in their own language. This process happened as well in Mexico, where -according to the Vocabulario en la lengua Castellana y Mexicana, México (Juan Pablos, 1555), a Nahuatl-Spanish dictionary by Alonso de Molina- the string instruments were called "mecahuehuetl", from "mecatl", string, and "huehuetl", drum. We can find the same operation in the Vocabulario en lengua Mixteca (México: Pedro Balli, 1593) by Francisco de Alvarado, where the Mixtec term "ñuu yoho" for string instruments comes from "ñuu", drum, and "yoho", string. In any case, the Indians did not call the new instruments -which they did adopt eagerly- charango, or cuatro or jarana, or any other term currently in use for the popular traditional instruments, but simply "string-drum" or simply "drum". About the differences between the vihuela and the charango, I'll name just a few: materials, shape of the back, size (vihuelas were made in various sizes; I do not know of large charangos), stringing (five courses vs six), tuning (re-entrant vs secuential), musical function (accompaniment vs solo/acompaniment), playing technique (mainly rasgueado vs punteado), repertoire (fantasias/intabulations/songs vs dances such as huaynos, carnavalitos, sayas, taquiraris, etc.). More importantly, we have no evidence of an instrument that behaves -in a musical sense- as the charango does during the time of the vihuela's heyday, while certain descriptions, such as the one Minguet provides for playing the tiple in c.1752, stating that to play it well it should be strummed fast in order to make "noisy music" (para tañerlo bien, es menester hacer muchos redobles, y apriessa, sin salir del compàs, para que chille, ò haga musica ruidosa) could very well describe how a charango is played. If we were to find any relationships between the charango and some member of the guitar/vihuela family, I would suggest that the Baroque guitar would be a more likely candidate. All the facts mentioned above combine and point to the change you mention as needed in order to justify a different name, especially taking into account your own statement about "their mutual intent, the purpose of their being far outweighs any differences in material used in their construction", considering the purpose of their being as the key factor: their musical function. If you wish to state that a vihuela de mano made from an armadillo shell can still be considered as a vihuela de mano, I would have to agree from a purely intelectual perspective; however, we have to face the fact that there is a fault in this line of reasoning: as far as we know there were no vihuelas made of armadillo shells. Finally, I'm afraid that we cannot construct history with an imaginary basis. As historians we can, and do make educated guesses when lacunae or lack of information prevent us from drawing firm conclusions, but we never present these guesses as established fact, much less pile speculation upon speculation in order to arrive to the conclusion we desire. Imagination is a useful research tool if we recognize its proper use and limitations, but wishful thinking cannot substitute for evidence. It has been my pleasure as well to chat with you. with best regards, Antonio P.S. I've never made a sweeping statement about the vihuela and guitar's names being interchangeable. I did mention that it happened on certain occasions, notably at the end of the sixteenth and throughout the seventeenth and eighteenth centuries, besides pointing to the evidence that indicates a certain laxity in the use of the term "vihuela" to designate a string instrument. This does not imply that either instrument recieved the other's name indistinctly. For more information about this you can see: The Vihuela and the Guitar in Sixteenth-Century Spain: a Critical Appraisal of some of the Existing Evidence, The Lute, Vol. XXX, 1990. --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > dear antonio - > > thank you very much for your considerate and > informative reply. > > what's needed here is a little imagination and i > don't > think historians are willing to inch themselves that > far out on to the plank. > > we have a shipwrecked sailor with some carpentry > skills who makes a stringed instrument from the > shell > of an animal. i
Vihuela, charango and armadillos. Long post . Olim Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear Bill, How right you are. In the remote case that the "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" proved to be genuine, I would require more evidence than what this text alone tells to consider that there might be a relationship between the vihuela and the charango. There are certain statements in this text that are not altogether convincing proof of such an association but, in order to pose the pertinent questions, perhaps I should quote all of the relevant text. I apologize for the length of this post, but there are some points that require to have as full a story as possible. First, some historical facts: according to the website, the text concerns Gonzalo de Guerrero who was shipwrecked off the coast of Yucatan, arriving to the island of Cozumel; no further information is provided as to when this happened. This much is true. Guerrero was indeed shipwrecked in 1511, and decideed to adopt the way of life of the natives, marrying the daughter of a local chieftain. His whereabouts were not known until 1519, when Cortes learned that there were Spaniards among the Indians from Yucatan, and tried to bring him back. Guerrero refused, arguing that he was married and had daughters. These facts are mentioned by Bernal Diaz del Castillo in his "Historia Verdadera de la Conquista de la Nueva España". The website does not provide ant details about the date of the "Conquistas del Mayab", or any other relevant bibliographical data, and only states that the "invention of the charango" must have happened c.1512, without aducing any suporting proof. How did he - or Joseph de San Buenaventura - arrived at this dating, we are left to guess. In order to discuss the various points, I shall alternate the original text with its translation and discussion. The text states that: ". Y pasó el tiempo en que me estoy yo con el ahau galel, así que él aprendió muy bien el trabajo de carpintero, así como yo dime maña para enseñarle lo que sabía, que yo aprendílo en mi mocedad allá en Badajoz de la provincia de Extremadura, aunque mi señor padre don Juan Guerrero y mi señora, madre doña Rosario de Bahamonde en nada quisieron que yo aprenda oficio de artesano por tener ellos descendencia de hidalgos y ser bien nacidos, ..." .. And the time passed when I was with the "ahau galel" [these terms should be verified as well, I claim no knowledge of Mayan], and he [meaning the "ahau galel"] learned very well the craft of a carpenter, and I tried as best as I could to teach him all I know, which I learned in my youth at Badajoz, in the province of Extremadura, even though my father don Juan Guerrero and my mother doña Rosario de Bahamonde were opposed to my learning any craft since they descended from "hidalgos" and were well-born. [According to this, we have a descendant of hidalgos learning a craft: his parents would no doubt be opposed. This part of the story is so unlikely as to cast the first shadows of doubt on this source. Secondly, from what the website informs us, the "ahau galel" was the eldest brother of a princess, i.e. a prince. Was he to learn carpentry as well?] "yo teníale mucha afición a la esta arte de carpintero y lo aprendí en la casa de maese Andrés de Piedrasanta, que era un excelente tallador de la madera y decorábala de mucho esplendor y más belleza, y era escultor muy bueno para hacer imágenes y más en hacer instrumentos músicos, y yo lo aprendí muy bien... " I was very fond of this art of carpentry, and learned it at the house of maese Andrés de Piedrasanta, who was an excellent carver of wood, and decorated it with splendour and beauty, and he was a very good sculptor making images, and even more in making musical instruments, and I learned very well. [Besides the improbable fact of an hidalgo deigning to stoop down and learn a trade - something considered degrading for his class - we have another inconsistency: although the Ordenanzas - craft regulations - for carpenters and "violeros" were in the same group, they are separate, each mentioning aspects relevant to each trade, thereby indicating each one was considered as separate. Was maese Andrés a carpenter or a violero?] "Y así hice para el joven galel un gambarrino, que es una vihuela corta, que así la hicimos con la caparazón de ese animalejo que hay aquí y que dícenle por nombre wech, que es un animal torpe que en nada es astuto o listo y que la su defensa es soterrarse en las cuevecillas o cubiles que para él mismo abre en la tierra y métese ahí para guarecerse de los enemigos que tenga, que no es agresivo en nada pero que tiene un carapacho muy fuerte y se esconde la cabeza y las cuatro patas adentro de la caparazón" And thus I made a "gambarrino", which is a short vihuela, for the young "galel", and we made it with the shell of an animal found here, which is called "wech" [something else to verify], which is dull of mind, not at all cunning or clever, and whose defense is to bury itself in the small caves or lairs which it opens in the grou
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear all, Once again . --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > surely this is a case of putting the cart before the > horse. If the fact that the violeros knew what name to call the instruments they made, and designated them with such names in their own documents, implies putting a cart before a horse so be it; I fail to see the connection. > - precisely what changes were made to the vihuela de > mano that required it having a new name? I do not share the hypothesis that the charango derives from the vihuela, therefore, I don't believe I should have to provide an explanation for a theory I personally find mistaken. > - at what point do derivations - alternative > tunings, > decorative embellishments, different building > materials - necessitate this change? Same as above. > - do you suggest that at some point, luthiers in the > new world stopped making vihuela de manos; threw > away > their molds and drawing plans and started to make > charangos? when did this happen? I would never dare to suggest such a thing, in my view it is simply wrong because, as I said above, it would mean a direct connection between the vihuela and the charango, a connection I don't believe obtains. > based on what was said during the last go-around on > the subject, i suspect that the answer is "don't > know." if that's the case, i suggest that "don't > know" makes it equally plausible that a charango is > a > bona-fide vihuela de mano. in fact, its shape and > the > quote below make it more than plausible. > > - bill > Tbe shapes of the vihuela and the charango suggest precisely otherwise. The quote below needs to be verified. I've know of it for a long time: it appears in almost every other site that deals with the charango. However, I have not been able to find either the original edition of the said book, or a modern one, something that sounds suspicious bearing the fact that I live in Mexico, where the said book is purported to have been written. The date is also wrong: according to the facts provided in the said quote, the conquest of Yucatan would have been accomplished by 1512 (the alleged date), and would thus predate the conquest of Mexico. Hardly probable. I am tempted to consider this source as spurious until some proof of its veracity is produced. Another fact that needs to be taken into account when dealing with literary sources is that the nomenclature does not necessarily reflect a specific instrument. As an example, numerous sources from the seventeenth century mention a vihuela when the context makes it plain that they mean a guitar. There is a welll-known source from the fifteenth century, _Vision delectable de la filosofia_ that also mentions a vihuela while the woodcut beside the quote illustrates a harp. I could go on with this subject, save for the fact that I do not believe it is germane to the topic under consideration, especially since the "Historias de la conquista del Mayab" seems to be a fabrication. As a student my supervisor passed on to me an advice from Thurston Dart which all of us would do well to heed: "verify your references". I´m sorry, but the authority of a website without any other supporting evidence is not good enough for me. With best regards, Antonio > > - --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation > > whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew > > how > > to name the instruments they made. > > > > Antonio > > > > > > > > --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > > wrote: > > > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de > > > violeros", > > > > that is, the regulations of the guild of > > > > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > > > > published > > > > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim > for > > > the > > > > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > > > > surely > > > > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > > > > certainly > > > > flourishing at the time. > > > > > > > > > any mention of the word "charango" or were the > > poor > > > deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela > > de > > > manos under the wrong name? > > > > > > what news of the vihuela society? > > > > > > - bill > > > > > > = > > > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the > shell > > of > > > a creepy crawly..." - Don Gon
Re: Oldest known viola bodied vihuela guitar, 1300's, Spain
Dear Roger, An update to your update. I am sorry to disappoint you but, even though the frescos in the Capilla del Aceite indeed date from the 14th century, the painting in question is a 20th-century restoration, and a botched job at that. I have know this picture for a long time, I´ve been to Salamanca and seen it personally. Unfortunately I do not have at hand the documentation I obtained at the Cathedral, where it is stated that the frescoes of the Capilla had undergone the aforesaid restoration, but I would advice you to evaluate this picture with extreme caution, bearing in mind that we do not know the extent of the "repairs". I too found it a facinating instrument. With best wishes, Antonio --- "Roger E. Blumberg" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Hi all; > > Just an update. To the greater viola-vihuela-guitar > story (to viola da gamba > ulitmately), I've just add this instrument: > > http://www.thecipher.com/Viola_sine_arculo_OLDEST-01.jpg > Plucked vihuela/viola (Vihuela de penola or Viola > sine arculo), 1300s. > Salamanca, Spain, Old Cathedral, Capilla del Aceite. > Fresco de la Capilla del Aceite > Catedral Vieja da Salamanca > > Also notice the peg box head of this four (or 3?) > string > Salamonca-viola-vihuela. It's very distinct, very > old, and will probably > link back to still older instruments, e.g. perhaps > even the 9th cent > Carolingian Psalter, the long rectangular shoulder > mounted (or forearm > bicept supported) bass instruments, and then perhaps > then even the > Commentarious Super Apocalypsum (lamb of God) plates > c.926 AD. The > instruments in the later are more lute-like bodied. > Another intermediate > instrument, to help solidify those earlier > connections would be nice. If any > of you stumble upon one please let me know. > > It would be intereresting if the waist cut-outs > originally evolved as a > bicept (arm) or shoulder-mounted stablizing device > (hook it up over your > right bicept or shoulder). Some of the Carolingain > manuscript instruments > also have a pole stabalizer proping up the front end > of the instrument (i.e. > stabalization and support were an issue on the > larger instruments.) > > Thanks > > Roger > > > > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
RE: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear Arthur, Thank you so much for the link, but I'm afraid that all the informatiuon they provide there is utterly wrong, beginning with the fact that Guatemala is not in Mexico (even at the time it was a separate Capitanía general), that the Spanish chacona has little to do with later chaconnes, as it also happens with the pasacalles and passacaglia, nor was king Philip III married in Tampico. There are certainly grounds to suppose that the chacona originated in New Spain, but no definite proof about this has surfaced yet. Richard Hudson has made some excelent studies; I'm afraid I haven´t got the references handy, but it would be worthwhile, if you are interested, to find them. Besides, he links the evolution of several dance forms with the Baroque guitar (or "guitarra española" as it was called at the time) and its influence. Best regards, Antonio --- "Fossum, Arthur" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Some interesting stuff regarding the origin of > Chaconne and Passacaglia > and the new world. > > http://www.streetswing.com/histmain/z3chacna.htm > > > > -Original Message- > From: Antonio Corona [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] > Sent: Friday, December 10, 2004 2:36 AM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: Renaissance america - a little more > lute related, maybe > > Dear all, > > > --- Carl Donsbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > > > Early colonial life was hard! The early English > and > > Spanish colonies in > > North America were not characterized by much > musical > > cultural growth, and > > there is little evidence of lute playing or making > > in those times. Musical > > instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at > > home by emigrating > > colonists. By the time much of any kind of > musical > > life was enjoyed by the > > residents of the colonies, we were pretty well > into > > the Baroque. > > > > The situation regarding Mexico is quite the > opposite: > musical activities, both liturgical and secular, > began > even as the conquest was taking place, and continued > to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period. > This process is well documented in numerous sources > and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that > the first printing press and the first university in > the American continent were founded in Mexico City. > Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during > the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain > nobles > and authorities towards natives, brought with them > their whole culture, including, of course, music > which > was shared freely with the Indian population - as an > aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless > making > it part of the common culture being forged at the > time. The Indians appreciated the new music and > learned with amazing speed both how to play and how > to > make the instruments - which were also imported from > Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned > above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period. > > The music in the archives from the cathedrals and > churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala, > Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample > proof > that there was indeed a musical cultural growth. > Here > we can find music imported from Europe in great > quantities, but also a wealth of works composed > locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding > quality, > not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at > the time. Nowadays there is a great number of > recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those > interested in folowing up this topic. > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros", > that is, the regulations of the guild of > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > published > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > surely > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > certainly > flourishing at the time. > > With best regards, > Antonio > > > > > > > > ___ > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even > more fun! > http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > > > > To get on or off this list see list information at > http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
No charangos (or cuatros or any other derivation whatsoever). And these deluded buggers surely knew how to name the instruments they made. Antonio --- bill kilpatrick <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > --- Antonio Corona <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de > violeros", > > that is, the regulations of the guild of > > vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first > > published > > in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for > the > > guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must > > surely > > mean that instrument-making -and buying- was > > certainly > > flourishing at the time. > > > any mention of the word "charango" or were the poor > deluded buggers still constructing their vihuela de > manos under the wrong name? > > what news of the vihuela society? > > - bill > > = > "and thus i made...a small vihuela from the shell of > a creepy crawly..." - Don Gonzalo de Guerrero > (1512), "Historias de la Conquista del Mayab" by Fra > Joseph of San Buenaventura. go to: > http://www.charango.cl/paginas/quieninvento.htm > > > > > > ___ > > ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even > more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com > ___ Win a castle for NYE with your mates and Yahoo! Messenger http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Renaissance america - a little more lute related, maybe
Dear all, --- Carl Donsbach <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > Early colonial life was hard! The early English and > Spanish colonies in > North America were not characterized by much musical > cultural growth, and > there is little evidence of lute playing or making > in those times. Musical > instruments (lutes included) tended to get left at > home by emigrating > colonists. By the time much of any kind of musical > life was enjoyed by the > residents of the colonies, we were pretty well into > the Baroque. The situation regarding Mexico is quite the opposite: musical activities, both liturgical and secular, began even as the conquest was taking place, and continued to flourish during the whole of the Colonial period. This process is well documented in numerous sources and chronicles and is consistent with the fact that the first printing press and the first university in the American continent were founded in Mexico City. Spaniards, despite their barbarous behaviour during the conquest and the inhuman conduct of certain nobles and authorities towards natives, brought with them their whole culture, including, of course, music which was shared freely with the Indian population - as an aid to colonization, granted - but nevertheless making it part of the common culture being forged at the time. The Indians appreciated the new music and learned with amazing speed both how to play and how to make the instruments - which were also imported from Spain; this process that went on, as I mentioned above, throughout the whole of the Colonial period. The music in the archives from the cathedrals and churches of Mexico City, Puebla, Oaxaca, Tlaxcala, Durango, and many other places, furnishes ample proof that there was indeed a musical cultural growth. Here we can find music imported from Europe in great quantities, but also a wealth of works composed locally by the chapelmasters, of outstanding quality, not inferior to what was being composed in Spain at the time. Nowadays there is a great number of recordings of Mexican Colonial music, for those interested in folowing up this topic. Incidentally, the Spanish "Ordenanzas de violeros", that is, the regulations of the guild of vihuela-makers (who also made lutes), first published in Seville in 1502, were reprinted verbatim for the guild of Mexican "violeros" in 1568. This must surely mean that instrument-making -and buying- was certainly flourishing at the time. With best regards, Antonio ___ ALL-NEW Yahoo! Messenger - all new features - even more fun! http://uk.messenger.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Rubato and rolling chords - Milan
Dear David, > >Given the preceding nearly identical passage: > _aa > |_d___b_|_a_ _| > a__b|_a__b__d___|__c__|_d__ > __c_|_a_|_c___| > |___|_|_a__ > |___|_| > >I have been interpreting the "d" in the second > measure of both passages as >the beginning of a suspension. In my view, the "d"2 in the second measure is part of the melody which comes from the first course "a" in the preceding bar, thus: _a_ |_d___b_|_a_ _| |___|_|_d__ |___|_| |___|_| |___|_| playing in counterpoint to: ___ |___|___ _| a__b|_a__b__d___|(d)___c__|_d__ __c_|___|_| |___|_| |___|_| where the d3 (I suppose this is the one you meant)is indeed the biginning of a suspension. The "a"4 in the second bar would be an isolated bass, while the "a"1 in the third would be a fill-in note, as you righly point out. The second case is even more interesting: > _a > _b__a___|_d|_a_ _| > ___d__b_|_a__b__d__|__c__|_d__ > _c__|_a|_c___| > _a__|__|_|_a__ > |__|_| > Here, in my opinion, you have only two voices: __ _b__a___|__|_a_ _| ___d__b_|_a__b__d__|__c__|_d__ |_A|_C___| _A__|__|_|_A__ |__|_| The remaining notes would be fill-ins. Even though it is quite tempting to think of the "d"3 as the beginning of a suspension, as in the previous case, I tend to prefer the above interpretation. It could be feasible, of course, to consider it as similar to the other one: in this case you would have two filling notes at the beginning of bar 3. Now, considering the possibility that my hypothesis about the index upward stroke could have some substance, this could be a possible interpretation: roll roll _a _b__a___|_d|_a_ _| ___d__b_|_a__b__d__|__c__|_d__ _c__|_a|_c___| _a__|__|_|_a__ |__|_| Best wishes, Antonio P.S. I should like to thank Stewart for forwarding my previous messaage. >thus making the open first course in the third > measure of both passages as a >"bonus" note. >Is this not the correct interpretation? Is this > type of thing open to >conjecture? >It would take some adjustment for me to think of > these passages as strict >3-part harmony. >Thanks, >David _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
Re: Rubato and rolling chords - Milan
Dear Stewart, I´m glad you agree with me about the interpretation of Milan's slow chords and fast scales; perhaps I should also point out that Milan does not specify this kind of treatment for all of his fantasias -just in case someone might be tempted to make a broad generalization- but it is also appropriate for his tientos and some of his songs (romances). Fantasia 11, which you mention, is one of my favourites and your description of how to play the first bars is precisely how I envisage it, with another slight twist. > Your e-mail has prompted me to have a fresh look at > Milan's Fantasy > 11, the one which begins: > > |\| |\ |\|\ > | | |\ |\| > | | | |\| > ___a__ > b_|_a|_a_|d_b_a___|___ > _d|d_|___|__d_b_a_|___ > _c|__|_c_||_c_ > _a|__|___||___ > __|__|___|_a__|___ > > The fast notes in the fourth bar sound rather > pedestrian if they are > played in strict time with what has gone before, but > they provide a > sudden, exciting flurry of notes if they are played > evenly, but a > bit quicker. Presumably that is the sort of thing > Milan had in mind. > The tempo would revert back to the original speed at > bar 5. Besides the change of beat, there is something else that my contribute to give character to this passage: when Milan speaks of fast scales he advises using the "dedillo" technique which, as most on the list will know, consists of using only the index finger of the right hand to pluck, moving upwards and downwards. The insistence placed on the index by Milan has prompted me to consider other possible implications of this technique, and -by coincidence with a recent thread- I believe Milan might have also used it to advantage in rolling chords. In this particular example I suspect that Milan may have played first the bass on the fourth course with the thumb, followed by the first course and finishing with the second, these two adjacent courses played with the index. This "rolling" downwards enhances the rhapsodic feeling of the beginning of the piece but, more importantly, provides a better voice leading by stressing the open second course. If we assume a vihuela in A, which would fit correct notes of the mode, the sequence would therefore be: D,F,E,F,E instead of D,F,E,F,A which is the way it would normally sound with the chord either rolled upwards or played plaque. Elsewhere in Milan's music you´ll find numerous cases where the music benefits from this approach, and it may well pay to make a more detailed study of Milan´s possible use of the index finger. > I assume the "compas" is shown by the barline, so > the word is also > used to mean bar (or measure in American English). > For example, on > folio 5v Milan talks about 20 bars of music - "En > estos veynte > compasses de musica". Quite right, you can confirm this usage in that very same folio: "en el deziseteno compas /ay vn punto en la postrera minima. El dicho punto es del deziocheno compas: y por esso le toma vna raya: y le passa al otro compas" (on bar 17 there is a dot on the last minim. This dot belongs to bar 18 and that is why it goes across the line and passes to the other bar), besides many oter similar cases. > On sig. Lv there is a rubric saying how the piece > should be played. > Typically he talks about the mode and the speed. As > far as the speed > is concerned, he uses the word "apriesa" for fast, > and "espacio" for > slow: "tañer ni muy apriesa ni muy a espacio" = play > not very fast > and not very slow. My Spanish is virtually > non-existent, but am I > right in thinking that these are not the usual words > for fast and > slow? Does "apriesa" mean hurried, pressing on, and > "espacio" spaced > out? If so, they are the sort of words one would use > to encourage a > student to play expressively, rather than the > prosaic "fast" and > "slow" for a more mechanical tempo. Well, these terms are not quite what you would find in modern Spanish, but whenever the vihuelists refer to tempo they use these or similar words. For example, Valderrabano mentions three different tempi to use in his pieces: a espacio (slowly), apriessa (fast), muy mas apriessa (much more faster), so I don´t think there might be an implication of character or expression in them. > My other thought concerns the mode. Why should the > player need to > know the mode, if all the notes are there in front > of him? Is it > because there is a mood associated with each mode? > Knowing the mode > would then give the player information on the mood > he should try to > create - happy, sad, introspective, aggressive, etc. > > I'd be very interested to know what you think. > > All the best, > > Stewart. None of the vihuelists mention any connection between mood and mode, but this does not necessarily means it did not exist. Some t
Re: Rubato and rolling chords
Dear Stewart, You are, of course, right in mentioning that Milan states that in his "fantasias de consonancias y redobles" chords should be played slowly while scales should be fast, but I don't think this case meets completely the idea of rubato. The point is that, even though Milan mentions his slow chords and fast scales in several cases, he also mentions that, in order to accomplish this you should make a "mutacion de compas". What does a mutation of "compas", i.e. change of "compas" mean?. Elsewhere Milan defines "compas" as a "steady raising and lowering of the hand ", that is, a steady beat. The implication of Milan´s instructions is, in my opinion, not that you can afford to play the whole thing freely, going faster or slower according to context, but that you have to actually change the beat in which you are playing and - possibly - play in time to a slow or fast beat. I'd like to know your thoughts on this interpretation. With best regards Antonio > Luis Milan advised players to show a certain amount > of freedom when > performing his music - play the slow notes really > slow, and the fast > notes really fast - exaggerate the rhythm to reflect > the sudden > changes of mood within a piece. Milan's fantasies > suit this kind of > approach. They would be boring, if played in strict > time. I have a > recording of Milan's music played by Massimo Lonardi > (Agora AG 195). > Lonardi's interpretation is rhythmically quite free, > and in this > context I think it works really well. It's an > excellent CD. _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
New vihuela society
Dear friends It gives me great pleasure to announce that last saturday, september 25, the Spanish Vihuela Society was formally constituted. At this point, when things are beginning to shape up, and as far as I am aware of (I was unable to attend the founding meeting) the memberships are not yet open, but I shall keep you posted of new developments. With best regards, Antonio _ Do You Yahoo!? Información de Estados Unidos y América Latina, en Yahoo! Noticias. Visítanos en http://noticias.espanol.yahoo.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
