[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Stephen, you continue to amaze and inspire me. Yes, you are not Nigel North or some other name player, but you are a good player with laudable humility, and I am very happy to sit here doing my emails and Facebook rants ;-) while listening to your playlist. It is reminding me what a fine composer Francesco was. It's a beautiful morning, 6.50am. The sun is shining, and the birds are chirping, as is Francesco. Thank you for your efforts! Rob MacKillop On 13 May 2016 at 22:13, stephen arndt <[1]stephenwar...@verizon.net> wrote: Dear Lute Friends, A number of years ago, I checked out Arthur Ness's edition of Francesco da Milano from a local university music library and made myself a French tab version of the fantasies and ricercars (Ness 1a91) since, like many people, I find French tab easier to read than Italian tab. (Dick Hoban kindly proofread my work and made corrections. If any errors remain, they are entirely mine.) I have played through these pieces every so often and finally decided some five months ago to try to record them. Today I finished that project and invite you to listen here: [1][2]http://www.verseandsong.com/song/renaissance-lute/francesco-da -milan o-fantasie-e-ricercari/ (to hear an individual piece, click on its title; to listen to the entire collection, use the playlist at the very bottom of the page). It was my intention to record the easier and shorter pieces first and then to proceed according to the level of difficulty and length. Although I did not fulfill that intention as well as I would have liked, and though the two categories overlap (some shorter pieces are rather difficult, and some longer ones are fairly easy), that approach still served as a kind of lute tutor, and I feel that my overall skill level improved as I made my way through the collection. It is a method I would recommend to anyone. After years of subscribing to this list, I recognize the names of most of those who post here and assume that most people recognize mine, even though I do not post very frequently. Nevertheless, if anyone is new to the list, I feel obligated to add that these are the home recordings of an amateur, self-taught musician. Please do not expect professional quality of either the recordings or the playing. Bearing that in mind, please feel free to leave a comment on my website or to e-mail me with your feedback. I would love to hear from anyone who is kind enough to listen. It might make nice background music while you are reading or going through e-mails. Best regards, Stephen Arndt -- References 1. [3]http://www.verseandsong.com/song/renaissance-lute/francesco-da-mi lano-fantasie-e-ricercari/ To get on or off this list see list information at [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- References 1. mailto:stephenwar...@verizon.net 2. http://www.verseandsong.com/song/renaissance-lute/francesco-da-milan 3. http://www.verseandsong.com/song/renaissance-lute/francesco-da-milano-fantasie-e-ricercari/ 4. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
A monumental undertaking! Kudos for this effort. The first two pieces, at least, are very nice. I'm looking forward to digesting more. Best, Eugene -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of stephen arndt Sent: Friday, May 13, 2016 5:13 PM To: lute mailing list list Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano Dear Lute Friends, A number of years ago, I checked out Arthur Ness's edition of Francesco da Milano from a local university music library and made myself a French tab version of the fantasies and ricercars (Ness 1a91) since, like many people, I find French tab easier to read than Italian tab. (Dick Hoban kindly proofread my work and made corrections. If any errors remain, they are entirely mine.) I have played through these pieces every so often and finally decided some five months ago to try to record them. Today I finished that project and invite you to listen here: [1]http://www.verseandsong.com/song/renaissance-lute/francesco-da-milan o-fantasie-e-ricercari/ (to hear an individual piece, click on its title; to listen to the entire collection, use the playlist at the very bottom of the page). It was my intention to record the easier and shorter pieces first and then to proceed according to the level of difficulty and length. Although I did not fulfill that intention as well as I would have liked, and though the two categories overlap (some shorter pieces are rather difficult, and some longer ones are fairly easy), that approach still served as a kind of lute tutor, and I feel that my overall skill level improved as I made my way through the collection. It is a method I would recommend to anyone. After years of subscribing to this list, I recognize the names of most of those who post here and assume that most people recognize mine, even though I do not post very frequently. Nevertheless, if anyone is new to the list, I feel obligated to add that these are the home recordings of an amateur, self-taught musician. Please do not expect professional quality of either the recordings or the playing. Bearing that in mind, please feel free to leave a comment on my website or to e-mail me with your feedback. I would love to hear from anyone who is kind enough to listen. It might make nice background music while you are reading or going through e-mails. Best regards, Stephen Arndt -- References 1. http://www.verseandsong.com/song/renaissance-lute/francesco-da-milano-fantasie-e-ricercari/ To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Dear David, Sorry I misunderstood you and the intended thrust of your comments. Perhaps it would have under the circumstances been advisable to change the subject heading, because I mistakenly saw your message as being directed at my comments on the opening THREE notes of No. 33 in what is surely the authentic version (without barlines) edited by Francesco's student Pierino Fiorentino. But you must realize that Francesco's music does not survive in multiple versions. The section in the preface, pages 17-29, is labeled Concordances, not Concordances and Cognates. His works tend to be copied over and over without change, that is, except for mistakes that creep in. Because the mistakes are hardly ever corrected in subsequent editions/copies they are cumulative. And so after a century of copying the piece might have a mistake in almost every measure. There are examples of these in English sources and in the Thysius Lute Book. Your digital file of 640 Francesco pieces is not only cumbersome but it's going to be filled with corrupt music, as Paul Beier remarked in regard to the Gardane 1547 Libro Terzo. It's pirated directly from the Dorico print of 1546 which has two mistakes, in all of the Francesco pieces, whereas the Gardane has 20 in all. The Cavalcanti lute book from ca. 1590, which has the correct opening, nevertheless has 27 mistakes in Ricercar 33 ALONE. If you would take a look at the HUP edition you will discover that I did not relegate the cognates to the scrap heap of history. Mine is one of the first critical editions of lute music to bring together all known concordant and cognate versions. There aren't many, but what there are appear in the Appendix as items Nos. 1-16. They are of mixed quality, and alas have been ignored by many. But you can lead a horse, . . . The variant from the Marsh lute book and the one by Sixt Kargel deserve the attention of performers and those who might want to understand how to ornament a Francesco work. Others are not too satisfactory, namely No. 33 rasgueado by Diomedes Cato in the Hainhofer Lautenbücher, and the long-winded variant of No. 33 in the Cosens Lute Book (mentioned by Jean-Marie). Arthur. - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Saturday, December 04, 2010 6:02 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Snip David Tayler is mistaken when he claims that I evened up uneven passages in Francesco's music. No serious editor of early music would ever do something like that. Snip Actually, I never said anything of the sort, nor would I. All of the material in your edition is in the critical commentary. In fact, what I did say was I defer to Arthur in all things Francesco--I don't think I can make it clearer than that. If you use a citation, when making such a claim, then I could cheerfully eat my words. That doesn't mean I don't have any opinion at all. Quote His polyphony depends more on Josquin's sacred polyphony, rather than the informal contrapuntal style of the Josquin's chansons. End quote As for points of imitation being different in the chansons of Josquin compared to the sacred music, you can see shortened imitation in Josquin's masses, for example Hercules dux Ferrariae, (Gloria), and many other works by Josquin, Isaac, and other composers of both sacred and secular music. And of course, the hundreds of masses and motets based on chansons which rework the motivic material. Standard compositional practice, in my opinion, also that composition of sacred music usually begin with a long note. I have a different opinion than some about some aspects of editing renaissance music. I think any piece can begin on a long. I think original note values should be used in editions, and so on. I think all of the source versions should be digitized and hyperlinked, with no urtext. That's just my opinion, and others may have a different opinion. And each individual piece represents a unique set of circumstances, which is why my initial reaction is to defer the expert, the person who has spent years on one repertory or composer. There's many ways to make an edition, and I myself, as an editor have changed my mind several times over the last forty years. However, I defer to Arthur in all things Francesco He's the expert. dt At 02:09 PM 12/4/2010, you wrote: David Tayler is mistaken when he claims that I evened up uneven passages in Francesco's music. No serious editor of early music would ever do something like that. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Let me be very clear, I'm not saying I was misunderstood, I'm saying I didn't say it. Sorry I misunderstood you and the intended thrust of your comments. Perhaps it would have under the circumstances been advisable to change the subject heading, because I mistakenly saw your message as being directed at my comments on the opening THREE notes of No. 33 in what is surely the authentic version (without barlines) edited by Francesco's student Pierino Fiorentino. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
David, I have no wish to discuss this matter any further. AJN - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Sunday, December 05, 2010 4:34 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Let me be very clear, I'm not saying I was misunderstood, I'm saying I didn't say it. Sorry I misunderstood you and the intended thrust of your comments. Perhaps it would have under the circumstances been advisable to change the subject heading, because I mistakenly saw your message as being directed at my comments on the opening THREE notes of No. 33 in what is surely the authentic version (without barlines) edited by Francesco's student Pierino Fiorentino. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
- Original Message - From: dem...@suffolk.lib.ny.us To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, December 01, 2010 8:09 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 BIG SNIP imitation will often change the intervals as the harmony demands that, yes, rhythm seems most often kept, but when changing mensuration that first note(s) in the new section gets mangled as needed, no? -- Dana Emery === Hello, Dana! Yes, but usually in Francesco the rhythm in subsequent points-of-imitation remains the same. His polyphony depends more on Josquin's sacred polyphony, rather than the informal contrapuntal style of the Josquin's chansons. The paired imitation and dialogue style of No. 3, for example, is just like Josquin's favorite sacred style. Put sacred words to it, and it might be mistaken for a Josquin motet. Francesco did not intabulate many Josquin chansons, and the two that he did intabulate are of questionable attribution to Josquin. Two ricercars begin with a direct quote from a Josquin motet, and he intabulated three genuine Josquin motets. His musical style depends more on the frottola (notice all the octave leap cadences in those works from the Dorico print) and Parisian chanson, than Josquin's chansons. David Tayler is mistaken when he claims that I evened up uneven passages in Francesco's music. No serious editor of early music would ever do something like that. I explained why the Dorico opening of No. 33 is the correct one, and the Gardane a mistake, created when some typesetter didn't know where to put the barlines. And one really has to watch for misplaced barlines in Francesco tablatures. It would surely be bizarre should someone claim that a ricercar with almost all of the barlines drawn before the upbeats might be an authentic version to be valued over all others.sigh It would drive a sensitive musician batty to try to play from something like that.g To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Snip David Tayler is mistaken when he claims that I evened up uneven passages in Francesco's music. No serious editor of early music would ever do something like that. Snip Actually, I never said anything of the sort, nor would I. All of the material in your edition is in the critical commentary. In fact, what I did say was I defer to Arthur in all things Francesco--I don't think I can make it clearer than that. If you use a citation, when making such a claim, then I could cheerfully eat my words. That doesn't mean I don't have any opinion at all. Quote His polyphony depends more on Josquin's sacred polyphony, rather than the informal contrapuntal style of the Josquin's chansons. End quote As for points of imitation being different in the chansons of Josquin compared to the sacred music, you can see shortened imitation in Josquin's masses, for example Hercules dux Ferrariae, (Gloria), and many other works by Josquin, Isaac, and other composers of both sacred and secular music. And of course, the hundreds of masses and motets based on chansons which rework the motivic material. Standard compositional practice, in my opinion, also that composition of sacred music usually begin with a long note. I have a different opinion than some about some aspects of editing renaissance music. I think any piece can begin on a long. I think original note values should be used in editions, and so on. I think all of the source versions should be digitized and hyperlinked, with no urtext. That's just my opinion, and others may have a different opinion. And each individual piece represents a unique set of circumstances, which is why my initial reaction is to defer the expert, the person who has spent years on one repertory or composer. There's many ways to make an edition, and I myself, as an editor have changed my mind several times over the last forty years. However, I defer to Arthur in all things Francesco He's the expert. dt At 02:09 PM 12/4/2010, you wrote: David Tayler is mistaken when he claims that I evened up uneven passages in Francesco's music. No serious editor of early music would ever do something like that. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Somebody needs to find you some better scotch. Here! here! lots of scotch vendors in the hamptons, but few of them carry any single malt, my mothers favorite, and something I didnt inherit enough of to develop any taste for (yet). I picked a piece, Mille Regretz, that doesn't start on a rest, but is emblematic of the thousands of imitative pieces that start on a long note and are imitated further on in the piece by a short note. right. well, imiitative counterpoint need not be slavish, in this or other eras. I am reminded of the Verdi Requiem which challenges the chorus by making use of one otherwise similar phrase distinguished by the use of single-dotted, double-dotted, and tripple-dotted notes. No editor would shorten that first note (Mille Regretz). The point is, there is no rule, stylistically, contrapuntally, or otherwise to regularize imitation on the first note, unless Josquin, Isaac and everyone else is writing bad counterpoint. imitation will often change the intervals as the harmony demands that, yes, rhythm seems most often kept, but when changing mensuration that first note(s) in the new section gets mangled as needed, no? -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Snip If someone wants to play freely the beginning is ok, of course, but we have to think a little more about the music written by Francesco and in general about the writing and the performance practice of the counterpoint in the first half of the Sixteenth-century. Snip This is the absolute crux of the matter. The twin processes of trying to find the urtext combined with guessing the composer's intent have created a gigantic problem in renaissance music, which is the fabrication of versions which did not exist in 16th century. There is no correct version; there are versions: there is no uniformity, there is only diversity. And it is this rich, detailed, brilliant and kaleidoscopic diversity that reflects the player-composer culture of the superbly trained musicians of that time. For some reason, we only want multiple versions when there are no doodles. So we, as modernists often reject the plain, unornamented versions of music in favor of the ornamented ones. But we still, somehow, want the number of versions to be small. We want the right stuff. But in the renaissance, they wanted a variety of stuff. They wrote in the margins; they composed as they copied, the impressed their own personalities on everything. The greater the player, the more different the copy! And had they done anything else, the would have been regarded as color by number instead of Vermeer. As far as the rules of counterpoint, let's take an example by the best composer in the renaissance writing one of his best pieces: Mille Regretz of the incomparable Josquin des Prez. Time after time, the longa in the point of imitation is answered by a breve. And why is that? Because it allows the polyphony more than twice as many possibilities for the answering counterpoint. It also allows the cadences to both elide and evaporate: two essential qualities of counterpoint. When making a scholarly edition, let's just include a facsimile of each and every version, digitally. Total information; no paper wasted. Isn't that the best way? What could be better? Anything less is relegating the alternate versions to the scrap heap of history. And in the transcription, it should be possible, clearly and easily, with no reference to algebra musik, to reconstruct every note and mark of the original source. So here is the question, should we correct the works of Josquin? Because some of those notes are longer in one part. Maybe add a rest at the beginning? And make the perfect urtext? Or should we go back and say, hey, there are a lot of different versions of this piece, and you, the unique player-composer can pick the one you like the best, and, when making your personal intabulation, you get to add some notes and graces of your own. The choice is ours, as players and editors. That's the choice they made, as well. Respectfully, dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
When making a scholarly edition, let's just include a facsimile of each and every version, digitally. Total information; no paper wasted. Isn't that the best way? What could be better? Anything less is relegating the alternate versions to the scrap heap of history. And in the transcription, it should be possible, clearly and easily, with no reference to algebra musik, to reconstruct every note and mark of the original source. Ah, but what of unsigned versions which are not identical The Bernard Hudson edition of the works of Hayne presents some 21 tunes, 14 of which are attributed to Hayne on stylistic grounds. The remaining tunes either use Haynes text or are perhaps falsely attributed by unscrupulous publishers; most of them are easily attributed to other composers by style (Two in 4vv that sit well on crumhorn may be Binchois). All of the tunes were 'copied' by contemporary and subsequent composers, some of them many many times. This was a high complement in that time, much as good jazz themes are used today, so were these themes. Each copy is an opportunity for us to see how polyphony was ornamented. All provide challenge in resolving musica ficta. I am minded of the editions of Ogni Sorte, not only are they presented in original notation and parts as well as score, but also the editions focus on specific themes, eg, De tous biens plains, all 28 known versions by all composers. (See _De tous Biens Plaine_, Cynthia J Cyrus, A-R Editions). So here is the question, should we correct the works of Josquin? Because some of those notes are longer in one part. Maybe add a rest at the beginning? I would first look to printed editions such as Odhecaton and see how it was handled there; but recall that often an incipit maxima rest shows the mood and may be better considered part of the time signature. Further, never forget that printed editions relied heavily on the musical skills of the compositor(s); persons whose skill was challenged with every piece of backwards-facing type they placed in the rack. And make the perfect urtext? Or should we go back and say, hey, there are a lot of different versions of this piece, and you, the unique player-composer can pick the one you like the best, and, when making your personal intabulation, you get to add some notes and graces of your own. The choice is ours nay, not choice, but duty, we are expected to show our own art in every performance. Analysis is helpful, and so the 'perfect' urtext is welcome, but it should not be the only inspiration for any performance. Consider the various versions of baroqued beatles tunes, the PDQ Bach madrigals (oy-vay!). -- Dana Emery To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Snip I am minded of the editions of Ogni Sorte, not only are they presented in original notation and parts as well as score, but also the editions focus on specific themes, eg, De tous biens plains, all 28 known versions by all composers. (See _De tous Biens Plaine_, Cynthia J Cyrus, A-R Editions). Snip Ogni Sorte are great editions, but they aren't facsimiles. Tandernacken is my fave. Venus Bant, Fortuna also great. Snip So here is the question, should we correct the works of Josquin? Because some of those notes are longer in one part. Maybe add a rest at the beginning? I would first look to printed editions such as Odhecaton and see how it was handled there; but recall that often an incipit maxima rest shows the mood and may be better considered part of the time signature. Further, never forget that printed editions relied heavily on the musical skills of the compositor(s); persons whose skill was challenged with every piece of backwards-facing type they placed in the rack. Snip I picked a piece, Mille Regretz, that doesn't start on a rest, but is emblematic of the thousands of imitative pieces that start on a long note and are imitated further on in the piece by a short note. Looking at Odhecaton won't help here, at least in any way that I can see, but maybe I'm missing your idea here. No editor would shorten that first note (Mille Regretz). The point is, there is no rule, stylistically, contrapuntally, or otherwise to regularize imitation on the first note, unless Josquin, Isaac and everyone else is writing bad counterpoint. Reconciling the different sources is a separate matter. Even the lute and vihuela versions of Mille Regretz start on a long note; it is a standard way of starting a piece. I'm basically saying, Francesco is like Josquin. And, like most things, the sources differ. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
And don't play you Ogni Sorte on you Liuto Forte! dt At 06:25 PM 11/30/2010, you wrote: If the van Ghizeghem's rockin' don't come Tandernaken! On Nov 30, 2010, at 5:56 PM, David Tayler wrote: Snip I am minded of the editions of Ogni Sorte, not only are they presented in original notation and parts as well as score, but also the editions focus on specific themes, eg, De tous biens plains, all 28 known versions by all composers. (See _De tous Biens Plaine_, Cynthia J Cyrus, A-R Editions). Snip Ogni Sorte are great editions, but they aren't facsimiles. Tandernacken is my fave. Venus Bant, Fortuna also great. Snip So here is the question, should we correct the works of Josquin? Because some of those notes are longer in one part. Maybe add a rest at the beginning? I would first look to printed editions such as Odhecaton and see how it was handled there; but recall that often an incipit maxima rest shows the mood and may be better considered part of the time signature. Further, never forget that printed editions relied heavily on the musical skills of the compositor(s); persons whose skill was challenged with every piece of backwards-facing type they placed in the rack. Snip I picked a piece, Mille Regretz, that doesn't start on a rest, but is emblematic of the thousands of imitative pieces that start on a long note and are imitated further on in the piece by a short note. Looking at Odhecaton won't help here, at least in any way that I can see, but maybe I'm missing your idea here. No editor would shorten that first note (Mille Regretz). The point is, there is no rule, stylistically, contrapuntally, or otherwise to regularize imitation on the first note, unless Josquin, Isaac and everyone else is writing bad counterpoint. Reconciling the different sources is a separate matter. Even the lute and vihuela versions of Mille Regretz start on a long note; it is a standard way of starting a piece. I'm basically saying, Francesco is like Josquin. And, like most things, the sources differ. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
It may be that the Scotch is too good. Hey, I didn't invent the Liuto Forte, but there is one for sale on Wayne's list. dt The what? the who? Somebody needs to find you some better scotch. On Nov 30, 2010, at 6:32 PM, David Tayler wrote: And don't play you Ogni Sorte on you Liuto Forte! dt At 06:25 PM 11/30/2010, you wrote: If the van Ghizeghem's rockin' don't come Tandernaken! On Nov 30, 2010, at 5:56 PM, David Tayler wrote: Snip I am minded of the editions of Ogni Sorte, not only are they presented in original notation and parts as well as score, but also the editions focus on specific themes, eg, De tous biens plains, all 28 known versions by all composers. (See _De tous Biens Plaine_, Cynthia J Cyrus, A-R Editions). Snip Ogni Sorte are great editions, but they aren't facsimiles. Tandernacken is my fave. Venus Bant, Fortuna also great. Snip So here is the question, should we correct the works of Josquin? Because some of those notes are longer in one part. Maybe add a rest at the beginning? I would first look to printed editions such as Odhecaton and see how it was handled there; but recall that often an incipit maxima rest shows the mood and may be better considered part of the time signature. Further, never forget that printed editions relied heavily on the musical skills of the compositor(s); persons whose skill was challenged with every piece of backwards-facing type they placed in the rack. Snip I picked a piece, Mille Regretz, that doesn't start on a rest, but is emblematic of the thousands of imitative pieces that start on a long note and are imitated further on in the piece by a short note. Looking at Odhecaton won't help here, at least in any way that I can see, but maybe I'm missing your idea here. No editor would shorten that first note (Mille Regretz). The point is, there is no rule, stylistically, contrapuntally, or otherwise to regularize imitation on the first note, unless Josquin, Isaac and everyone else is writing bad counterpoint. Reconciling the different sources is a separate matter. Even the lute and vihuela versions of Mille Regretz start on a long note; it is a standard way of starting a piece. I'm basically saying, Francesco is like Josquin. And, like most things, the sources differ. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Thank you, Arthur, for that very precise and well-documented point of view on the first two bars of Francesco's 33 g ! Much appreciated and appended to your Francesco edition... All the best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 29-11-2010, 00:54:35 == - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [1]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Thank you for all your responses! Sorry I didn't write clearly. I know of three versions which were kindly given to me by David van Oijen: - Siena Manuscript - Intabolatura di Liuto di M. Francesco da Milano [...] Libro Terzo, Gardano 1562 - Theatrum Musicum - Petrus Phalesius, Antuerpiensi 1571 All these versions have the opening motif with a rhythm being semibreve-minima-minima I think it is strange to have an alternation of the motif as soon as in the first imitation and I was thinking of any reason of notation / printing problems. But my theory also seems not to be very convincing because they could have started the first imitation on an upbeat if they want to use bar lines. On his CD of 2008 Hopkinson Smith plays the version written in Siena, Gardano and Phalese. It is very interesting, Jean-Marie, to know about this english version with corrected opening motif. If there are any other versions or theories - it would also be interesting to know about that. Thanks to all, Susanne Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne = Dear Susanne and friends, Perhaps I might add a few comments appropriate to this discussion. Err, about 800 words about two notes.g A few years back I completed a collected edition of the music of Francesco da Milano, with which some of you are familiar. When I worked on that edition I assembled all known sources for Francesco's music, that is, altogether, some 640 pieces that were copied or printed into 16th and early 17th sources. That is standard working procedure in preparing a critical edition of music. To determine the very best reading to use as a basic source, and to discover if other sources had corrections that might be incorporated into the basic reading, I collated all those 640+++ pieces. For No. 33 the best source I had at that time was from the Intabolatura de Lauto, Libro Terzo (Venice; Antonio Gardane, 1547). So I used it, although the rhythm of the first three notes seemed to garble the opening musical idea, Francesco's favored mi-fa-mi motive. The motive dominates the entire ricercar and its companion No. 34. Why throw away a strong opening musical idea? Surely it was intended to be the same as the later imitation, three equal semibreves, rather than the semibreve-minim-minim of the Gardane exemplar (which found its way into so many later printed editions and manuscripts, as David van Ooijen showed us, in part). Six independent sources available to me at that time gave the reading which I suspected was the correct one, three long notes (semibreves) as in the answering points-of-imitation. These included one ms copied in Florence and another in Lucca; a late, otherwise very corrupt homophonic version attributed to Diomedes Cato in the Hainhofer Lautenbuecher (ca. 1603), as well as the Cambridge manuscript cited by Jean-Marie--the latter is published as Appendix 4 in the FdaM edition. So I adopted the change, marking it with [*] to indicate the emendation was found in contemporary sources. One source (the one from Lucca) even confirmed Susanne Herre's suspicions about an upbeat by inserting a rest before the first note. (Actually it's not quite an upbeat rather than a piece beginning on the second beat in triple meter, but as it comes down from Gardane falsely barred in duple.) One of the most lamented
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
I totally agree with Dr. Ness. If someone wants to play freely the beginning is ok, of course, but we have to think a little more about the music written by Francesco and in general about the writing and the performance practice of the counterpoint in the first half of the Sixteenth-century. Many greetings Franco Pavan ps: by the way, the version in Castelfranco Veneto ms. is in the correct rhythm. 2010/11/29 A. J. Ness [1]arthurjn...@verizon.net - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [1][2]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [2][3]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Thank you for all your responses! Sorry I didn't write clearly. I know of three versions which were kindly given to me by David van Oijen: - Siena Manuscript - Intabolatura di Liuto di M. Francesco da Milano [...] Libro Terzo, Gardano 1562 - Theatrum Musicum - Petrus Phalesius, Antuerpiensi 1571 All these versions have the opening motif with a rhythm being semibreve-minima-minima I think it is strange to have an alternation of the motif as soon as in the first imitation and I was thinking of any reason of notation / printing problems. But my theory also seems not to be very convincing because they could have started the first imitation on an upbeat if they want to use bar lines. On his CD of 2008 Hopkinson Smith plays the version written in Siena, Gardano and Phalese. It is very interesting, Jean-Marie, to know about this english version with corrected opening motif. If there are any other versions or theories - it would also be interesting to know about that. Thanks to all, Susanne Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne = Dear Susanne and friends, Perhaps I might add a few comments appropriate to this discussion. Err, about 800 words about two notes.g A few years back I completed a collected edition of the music of Francesco da Milano, with which some of you are familiar. When I worked on that edition I assembled all known sources for Francesco's music, that is, altogether, some 640 pieces that were copied or printed into 16th and early 17th sources. That is standard working procedure in preparing a critical edition of music. To determine the very best reading to use as a basic source, and to discover if other sources had corrections that might be incorporated into the basic reading, I collated all those 640+++ pieces. For No. 33 the best source I had at that time was from the Intabolatura de Lauto, Libro Terzo (Venice; Antonio Gardane, 1547). So I used it, although the rhythm of the first three notes seemed to garble the opening musical idea, Francesco's favored mi-fa-mi motive. The motive dominates the entire ricercar and its companion No. 34. Why throw away a strong opening musical idea? Surely it was intended to be the same as the later imitation, three equal semibreves, rather than the semibreve-minim-minim of the Gardane exemplar (which found its way into so many later printed editions and manuscripts, as David van Ooijen showed us, in part). Six independent sources available to me at that time gave the reading which I suspected was the correct one, three long notes (semibreves) as in the answering points-of-imitation. These included one ms copied in Florence and another in Lucca; a late, otherwise very corrupt homophonic version attributed to Diomedes Cato in the Hainhofer Lautenbuecher (ca. 1603), as well as the Cambridge manuscript
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
- Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [1]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [2]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 9:43 AM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Thank you for all your responses! Sorry I didn't write clearly. I know of three versions which were kindly given to me by David van Oijen: - Siena Manuscript - Intabolatura di Liuto di M. Francesco da Milano [...] Libro Terzo, Gardano 1562 - Theatrum Musicum - Petrus Phalesius, Antuerpiensi 1571 All these versions have the opening motif with a rhythm being semibreve-minima-minima I think it is strange to have an alternation of the motif as soon as in the first imitation and I was thinking of any reason of notation / printing problems. But my theory also seems not to be very convincing because they could have started the first imitation on an upbeat if they want to use bar lines. On his CD of 2008 Hopkinson Smith plays the version written in Siena, Gardano and Phalese. It is very interesting, Jean-Marie, to know about this english version with corrected opening motif. If there are any other versions or theories - it would also be interesting to know about that. Thanks to all, Susanne Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne = Dear Susanne and friends, Perhaps I might add a few comments appropriate to this discussion. Err, about 800 words about two notes.g A few years back I completed a collected edition of the music of Francesco da Milano, with which some of you are familiar. When I worked on that edition I assembled all known sources for Francesco's music, that is, altogether, some 640 pieces that were copied or printed into 16th and early 17th sources. That is standard working procedure in preparing a critical edition of music. To determine the very best reading to use as a basic source, and to discover if other sources had corrections that might be incorporated into the basic reading, I collated all those 640+++ pieces. For No. 33 the best source I had at that time was from the Intabolatura de Lauto, Libro Terzo (Venice; Antonio Gardane, 1547). So I used it, although the rhythm of the first three notes seemed to garble the opening musical idea, Francesco's favored mi-fa-mi motive. The motive dominates the entire ricercar and its companion No. 34. Why throw away a strong opening musical idea? Surely it was intended to be the same as the later imitation, three equal semibreves, rather than the semibreve-minim-minim of the Gardane exemplar (which found its way into so many later printed editions and manuscripts, as David van Ooijen showed us, in part). Six independent sources available to me at that time gave the reading which I suspected was the correct one, three long notes (semibreves) as in the answering points-of-imitation. These included one ms copied in Florence and another in Lucca; a late, otherwise very corrupt homophonic version attributed to Diomedes Cato in the Hainhofer Lautenbuecher (ca. 1603), as well as the Cambridge manuscript cited by Jean-Marie--the latter is published as Appendix 4 in the FdaM edition. So I adopted the change, marking it with [*] to indicate the emendation was found in contemporary sources. One source (the one from Lucca) even confirmed Susanne Herre's suspicions about an upbeat by inserting a rest before the first note. (Actually it's not quite an upbeat rather than a piece beginning on the second beat in triple meter, but as it comes down from Gardane falsely barred in duple.) One of the most lamented lost sources back then was an Intabulatura de lauto di M. Francesco Milanese et M. Perino [sic] Fiorentino, Libro Primo (Rome: Valerio Dorico Lodovico fratello, M. D. LXVI). I only had the first four folios (from an incomplete copy in a French library). The original print run
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
I defer to Arthur in all things Francesco, however as an issue of performance practice, not musicology, I still hold that the beginning of a piece may be in free time, and that there is no urtext or composer's intent except in very rare cases (Byrd). As we can see from John and Robert Dowland, a seemingly linear succession from teacher to student can be shown to have the opposite effect: the copyist copies; the student rewrites. In the absence of holograph material, which is itself not an urtext, as composers wrote multiple versions of the same piece, we simply have the diversity of versions, which is richness copiousness. Editions which bring together multiple sources create new, previously unknown versions. However, I defer to Arthur in all things Francesco :) From wisdom comes truth. dt To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Dear David, Interesting points I never heard of before. In which way do the mss sources support your opinion of the fermata of the first note? What evidence do we have to play graces in pieces by Francesco? Why is it possible that the first statement is not a real statement? Best wishes, Susanne - Original Message - From: David Tayler vidan...@sbcglobal.net To: lute-cs.dartmouth.edu lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, November 25, 2010 7:30 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 There are several issues here. The first is that the opening note may be said to have an implied coronoa, or fermata in the historical sense, creating a time free zone (TFZ) which may be played longer or shorter, or with graces appropriate to beginning a piece. The mss sources support this. In this respect, the first note is like the last note. Second is that, similar to a tonal imitative answer there is a rhythmic imitative answer: in both cases the answer may be different than the opening statement. NB The first statement is not always the real statement It is tempting to correct No 33 according to No 34, but that makes two assumptions, one, that the first note is not qualitatively different in some respect, and, second, that there is some sort of urtext, e.g. the comopser's intent. The idea of an urtext has been largely discredited--the main reason is that the sources do not support it. Even Bach's cello suites do not have an urtext. Nonetheless, the two make a great pair of pieces, and I for one am grateful that there are different versions of these and other pieces. dt At 05:23 AM 11/24/2010, you wrote: We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed. That's what I play.. :) P On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier [1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms 3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on that... All the best, Jean-Marie = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 == Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements. So there's certainly room for doubt. I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them doesn't make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy the diversity! P On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier [1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint... Best, JM = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 == correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [2][3]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Basically, if you look at all the sources for renaissance music, including lute music, you will see many pieces that begin and end with the equivalent of a longa, and that the time for these notes, as well as those at medial cadences, can be free. Looking again at the sources, if you look at how to begin a piece, you will see that what we call a cadenza appears in the earliest sources also at the beginning of a piece, not just the end. Depending on the source, the longa may also be indicated by a breve. Also, in some sources you will see the corona on the longa, but in other sources not. As for ornamentation, there are basically two kinds, graces and glossas Modern lute performance generally includes some of the graces, but few, if any, of the glossas. This is a good thing, because we can re-record (better yet, video) the 16th century, and still have something to add. As for the theme statement, that is a very complex subject, but the short version is that the statement may appear first in a different form, and the full or real statement my appear later. The real statement usually comes first, but not always. And, in some cases, it isn't possible to tell which is the real themes, as there will be several different versions. The only reason it is important is that to correct the opening motive can be more complicated than it seems. Another thing about correcting the first note is that we are basically assuming they didn't understand their own music. Obviously, there are mistakes, but it is often a good idea to explore other possibilities. In this case, Francesco's piece, there is room for more than one interpretation. dt At 09:22 AM 11/27/2010, you wrote: Dear David, Interesting points I never heard of before. In which way do the mss sources support your opinion of the fermata of the first note? What evidence do we have to play graces in pieces by Francesco? Why is it possible that the first statement is not a real statement? Best wishes, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Susanne, David All: I completely agree with David's thorough explanation. The intent of the opening phase is established when the player introduces the idea of pulse. Beginning with a longa allows you to draw the listener (even if it's only you and your cat) into the atmosphere of the piece. Think of the dramatic gestures found in recercars of Spinacino and Dalza, and look forward in time to Francesco, rather than looking backward from the era of pleasing and tuneful etudes. Best, Ron Andrico www.mignarda.com Date: Sat, 27 Nov 2010 13:15:42 -0800 To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu From: vidan...@sbcglobal.net Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Basically, if you look at all the sources for renaissance music, including lute music, you will see many pieces that begin and end with the equivalent of a longa, and that the time for these notes, as well as those at medial cadences, can be free. Looking again at the sources, if you look at how to begin a piece, you will see that what we call a cadenza appears in the earliest sources also at the beginning of a piece, not just the end. Depending on the source, the longa may also be indicated by a breve. Also, in some sources you will see the corona on the longa, but in other sources not. As for ornamentation, there are basically two kinds, graces and glossas Modern lute performance generally includes some of the graces, but few, if any, of the glossas. This is a good thing, because we can re-record (better yet, video) the 16th century, and still have something to add. As for the theme statement, that is a very complex subject, but the short version is that the statement may appear first in a different form, and the full or real statement my appear later. The real statement usually comes first, but not always. And, in some cases, it isn't possible to tell which is the real themes, as there will be several different versions. The only reason it is important is that to correct the opening motive can be more complicated than it seems. Another thing about correcting the first note is that we are basically assuming they didn't understand their own music. Obviously, there are mistakes, but it is often a good idea to explore other possibilities. In this case, Francesco's piece, there is room for more than one interpretation. dt At 09:22 AM 11/27/2010, you wrote: Dear David, Interesting points I never heard of before. In which way do the mss sources support your opinion of the fermata of the first note? What evidence do we have to play graces in pieces by Francesco? Why is it possible that the first statement is not a real statement? Best wishes, Susanne To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Thank you for all your responses! Sorry I didn't write clearly. I know of three versions which were kindly given to me by David van Oijen: - Siena Manuscript - Intabolatura di Liuto di M. Francesco da Milano [...] Libro Terzo, Gardano 1562 - Theatrum Musicum - Petrus Phalesius, Antuerpiensi 1571 All these versions have the opening motif with a rhythm being semibreve-minima-minima I think it is strange to have an alternation of the motif as soon as in the first imitation and I was thinking of any reason of notation / printing problems. But my theory also seems not to be very convincing because they could have started the first imitation on an upbeat if they want to use bar lines. On his CD of 2008 Hopkinson Smith plays the version written in Siena, Gardano and Phalese. It is very interesting, Jean-Marie, to know about this english version with corrected opening motif. If there are any other versions or theories - it would also be interesting to know about that. Thanks to all, Susanne - Original Message - From: Jean-Marie Poirier jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr To: Peter Martin peter.l...@gmail.com; Lute list lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 3:49 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Fine, Peter, but 34 is another story altogether, isn't it ? La Compagna, perfect, but not La Sosia ;-). The contrapuntal oprtions in the introductory motive are slightly, but significantly different. It seems impossible to me to adopt the same rhythmical symetry (semibreve, quarter, quarter) in the introduction and its answer in 33; I feel that Arthur's option, comforted by the English version in Cambridge Add Ms 3056, is more satisfactory and preserves the coherence in the imitation. But of course, that's only my twopence... :-) Among the recordings I could put my hands on, Paul O'Dette, Chris Wilson, Anthony Bailes, Massimo Lonardi, Hopkinson Smith share this opinion and all choose to play the rectified version (3 semi breves at the opening), perhaps it is not just a hasard ? Best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 14:25:10 == We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed. That's what I play.. :) P On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier [1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms 3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on that... All the best, Jean-Marie = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 == Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements. So there's certainly room for doubt. I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them doesn't make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy the diversity! P On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier [1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint... Best, JM = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 == correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [2][3]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
There are several issues here. The first is that the opening note may be said to have an implied coronoa, or fermata in the historical sense, creating a time free zone (TFZ) which may be played longer or shorter, or with graces appropriate to beginning a piece. The mss sources support this. In this respect, the first note is like the last note. Second is that, similar to a tonal imitative answer there is a rhythmic imitative answer: in both cases the answer may be different than the opening statement. NB The first statement is not always the real statement It is tempting to correct No 33 according to No 34, but that makes two assumptions, one, that the first note is not qualitatively different in some respect, and, second, that there is some sort of urtext, e.g. the comopser's intent. The idea of an urtext has been largely discredited--the main reason is that the sources do not support it. Even Bach's cello suites do not have an urtext. Nonetheless, the two make a great pair of pieces, and I for one am grateful that there are different versions of these and other pieces. dt At 05:23 AM 11/24/2010, you wrote: We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed. That's what I play.. :) P On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier [1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms 3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on that... All the best, Jean-Marie = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 == Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements. So there's certainly room for doubt. I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them doesn't make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy the diversity! P On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier [1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint... Best, JM = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 == correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [2][3]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- - Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Dear Susanne, I don't understand your point here. The answer to your question is in the contrantunpal writing itself : Francesco imitates his initial motive note for note (2nd and 3rd bars) and he doesn't use an upbeat to do that, which certainly means that he intended it exactly like it is, otherwise, he would have introduced his countermotive on the upbeat too. I like this piece a lot and it stands very well as it is, imho! All the best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 10:53:43 == Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint... Best, JM = == En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 == correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --- Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte.
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Fine, Peter, but 34 is another story altogether, isn't it ? La Compagna, perfect, but not La Sosia ;-). The contrapuntal oprtions in the introductory motive are slightly, but significantly different. It seems impossible to me to adopt the same rhythmical symetry (semibreve, quarter, quarter) in the introduction and its answer in 33; I feel that Arthur's option, comforted by the English version in Cambridge Add Ms 3056, is more satisfactory and preserves the coherence in the imitation. But of course, that's only my twopence... :-) Among the recordings I could put my hands on, Paul O'Dette, Chris Wilson, Anthony Bailes, Massimo Lonardi, Hopkinson Smith share this opinion and all choose to play the rectified version (3 semi breves at the opening), perhaps it is not just a hasard ? Best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 14:25:10 == We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed. That's what I play.. :) P On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier [1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms 3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on that... All the best, Jean-Marie = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 == Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements. So there's certainly room for doubt. I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them doesn't make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy the diversity! P On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier [1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint... Best, JM = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 == correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [2][3]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- - Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782 662089 mob: 0044 (0)7971 232614 [5][6]peter.l...@gmail.com -- References 1.
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano - Ness 33
Sorry, read options instead of oprtions... ;-( = == En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 15:50:00 == Fine, Peter, but 34 is another story altogether, isn't it ? La Compagna, perfect, but not La Sosia ;-). The contrapuntal oprtions in the introductory motive are slightly, but significantly different. It seems impossible to me to adopt the same rhythmical symetry (semibreve, quarter, quarter) in the introduction and its answer in 33; I feel that Arthur's option, comforted by the English version in Cambridge Add Ms 3056, is more satisfactory and preserves the coherence in the imitation. But of course, that's only my twopence... :-) Among the recordings I could put my hands on, Paul O'Dette, Chris Wilson, Anthony Bailes, Massimo Lonardi, Hopkinson Smith share this opinion and all choose to play the rectified version (3 semi breves at the opening), perhaps it is not just a hasard ? Best, Jean-Marie = == En réponse au message du 24-11-2010, 14:25:10 == We should look also at the next piece in the Siena manuscript, La Compagna, which opens with the same theme and rhythm, suggesting that number 33 was written as intended, and doesn't need to be changed. That's what I play.. :) P On 24 November 2010 12:56, Jean-Marie Poirier [1]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: True, Peter. The Siena doesn't use the same rhythm in the answering statement. Arthur Ness gives the exact Siena version in tab and his transcription suggests a change to make both opening statements rhythmically identical. Moreover there is a version of this very Ricercar in an English manuscript, Cambridge Univ. Library, Add. Ms 3056, which changes the Siena version to make both statement conform, like Arthur suggested in his transcription. That's what I play, and it would be interesting to have Arthur's opinion on that... All the best, Jean-Marie = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 13:21:18 == Looking at this piece in the Siena manuscript, the rhythm for the opening statement is not the same as in the answering statements. So there's certainly room for doubt. I think the opening statement may have been 'corrected' in the Ness edition (I don't have it here to check). However, since several different rhythms are used for this motif, changing one of them doesn't make the counterpoint any more uniform. Let it stand, and enjoy the diversity! P On 24 November 2010 10:33, Jean-Marie Poirier [1][2]jmpoiri...@wanadoo.fr wrote: Same argument ! Listen to the counterpoint... Best, JM = == En reponse au message du 24-11-2010, 11:27:59 == correction: Sorry, I meant the values of the second and third note of the first motif respectively the first bar in general... - Original Message - From: Susanne Herre [2][3]mandolinens...@web.de To: Lute List [3][4]l...@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:49 AM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano - Ness 33 Dear lute lovers, What are your opinions about the beginning of Francesco da Milano - Fantasia Ness 33 regarding the note value of the first note of the first motif? My thoughts at the moment are that maybe it happened like this: Francesco wrote the piece without bar lines. When they tried to print it with bar lines it was not possible or not common to print only an upbeat / a bar of half length. So they changed the rhythm to a very common pattern so the motif could now fit into one bar. Could that be possible? Maybe that happened with other pieces as well? Or maybe Francesco had to compose it like this because no piece like a fantasia or ricercar would start with an upbeat? Best wishes, Susanne -- To get on or off this list see list information at [4][5]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- - Orange vous informe que cet e-mail a ete controle par l'anti-virus mail. Aucun virus connu a ce jour par nos services n'a ete detecte. -- Peter Martin 24 The Mount St Georges Second Avenue Newcastle under Lyme ST5 8RB tel: 0044 (0)1782
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano in Poulton's Tutor (no. 34)
Milanese', fols. 30v-31 from the Libro Secondo, Intavolatura de viola ovvero lauto (Naples, 1536). As Diana Poulton explains, it is printed in the very rare form of tablature known as 'Intavolatura alla Napolitana': the stave is the same way up as in French tablature but the open course is numbered 1 and all other frets are, therefore, one number higher than in ordinary Italian tablature. I remember playing from the facsimile the first time, it just arrived, and after several pieces I started to have a feeling I knew some of the pieces, but I didn't recall they had so many barrés ... David To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano in Poulton's Tutor (no. 34)
Dear Manolo, That's No. 14 in the HUP edition. (begins: I:1 II:4/III:4 II:1 |) A different version. I didn't know that Mrs. Poulton knew about the Naples print. Neapolitan tablature makes some people very angry. It's so near, yet so far from their experiences with Italian tablature, if they've learned to read it. I find it interesting, Manolo, that you seem to thrive with it. At first some people didn't understand how to read it, and were playing it upside down. I thought it sounded strange when I played it.g Now, I have the SULZBACHIUS CAVEAT to send you (again?). There is the Minkoff facsimile of the Sulzbachius print. The unique original copy now in Paris is misbound. It's in two books. Book 1 is Italian tablature, Book 2, Neapolitan. The last folios (fol. 29-32) were exchanged. So fol. 29-32 in book two belong with book 1, and folios 29-32 in book 1 belong with book 2. It's rather clear because book 1 is in Italian tablature, and book 2 is in Neapolitan. Mrs. Minkoff's first printing has the misplaced gatherings. Claude Chavel and I noticed what happened, and we provided her with a preface and index that she published in a revised facsimile (Edition revue et corrigée). The revised facsimile has an index that provides the Ness and Chiesa numbers for all of the pieces. The gatherings are in their proper position. There are some different versions for some of the pieces, but otherwise there's nothing new, except for Ness No. 95. I did not have access to the Sulzbachius print, which was discovered (I knew such a print existed at one time) when the HUP was in press. Forunately, the Sulzbachius Neapolitan tablature was recopied in Italian tablature in Paris, Rés 429. And so all the pieces are in the HUP edition. Except for the first half of No. 95. Pages were removed from the Paris manuscript, so I only had the second half. The Sulzbachuis print has the complete No. 95 (book 2, folios 21-22v). ajn. - Original Message - From: Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano in Poulton's Tutor (no. 34) Hi, item no. 34 in Poulton's tutor (page 50) is a 'Recercata di Francesco Milanese', fols. 30v-31 from the Libro Secondo, Intavolatura de viola ovvero lauto (Naples, 1536). As Diana Poulton explains, it is printed in the very rare form of tablature known as 'Intavolatura alla Napolitana': the stave is the same way up as in French tablature but the open course is numbered 1 and all other frets are, therefore, one number higher than in ordinary Italian tablature. Poulton wants that we do a little mental exercise, and prints it in that form. Curiously enough, I find more easily the right finger combination from that 'tablatura napolitana' than from the regular one. And now to my question: which item is it in the Ness edition? I really can't find it there... Thank you very much, and saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo PS It is a beautiful piece, BTW... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano in Poulton's Tutor (no. 34)
Dear Arthur, thank you very much for your interesting information. Although Mrs. Poulton warns about the misbounding of the Sulzbachius print at the end of his tutor, where she lists the sources, it is nice that you comment it here, so that everybody is warned. In her tutor this piece appears in modern typesetting, it is not a reproduction from the facsimile. But she neither corrects the obvious errors present in the original (the most prominent one is in measure 37: a g major chord appears with note c instead of note b in the third course), nor at least warns about them. In your double stave transcription those errors appear amended! It is highly useful, therefore, consulting your edition, the HUP one. Saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo Arthur Ness wrote: Dear Manolo, That's No. 14 in the HUP edition. (begins: I:1 II:4/III:4 II:1 |) A different version. I didn't know that Mrs. Poulton knew about the Naples print. Neapolitan tablature makes some people very angry. It's so near, yet so far from their experiences with Italian tablature, if they've learned to read it. I find it interesting, Manolo, that you seem to thrive with it. At first some people didn't understand how to read it, and were playing it upside down. I thought it sounded strange when I played it.g Now, I have the SULZBACHIUS CAVEAT to send you (again?). There is the Minkoff facsimile of the Sulzbachius print. The unique original copy now in Paris is misbound. It's in two books. Book 1 is Italian tablature, Book 2, Neapolitan. The last folios (fol. 29-32) were exchanged. So fol. 29-32 in book two belong with book 1, and folios 29-32 in book 1 belong with book 2. It's rather clear because book 1 is in Italian tablature, and book 2 is in Neapolitan. Mrs. Minkoff's first printing has the misplaced gatherings. Claude Chavel and I noticed what happened, and we provided her with a preface and index that she published in a revised facsimile (Edition revue et corrigée). The revised facsimile has an index that provides the Ness and Chiesa numbers for all of the pieces. The gatherings are in their proper position. There are some different versions for some of the pieces, but otherwise there's nothing new, except for Ness No. 95. I did not have access to the Sulzbachius print, which was discovered (I knew such a print existed at one time) when the HUP was in press. Forunately, the Sulzbachius Neapolitan tablature was recopied in Italian tablature in Paris, Rés 429. And so all the pieces are in the HUP edition. Except for the first half of No. 95. Pages were removed from the Paris manuscript, so I only had the second half. The Sulzbachuis print has the complete No. 95 (book 2, folios 21-22v). ajn. - Original Message - From: Manolo Laguillo [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: LUTELIST lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Monday, June 11, 2007 6:15 PM Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano in Poulton's Tutor (no. 34) Hi, item no. 34 in Poulton's tutor (page 50) is a 'Recercata di Francesco Milanese', fols. 30v-31 from the Libro Secondo, Intavolatura de viola ovvero lauto (Naples, 1536). As Diana Poulton explains, it is printed in the very rare form of tablature known as 'Intavolatura alla Napolitana': the stave is the same way up as in French tablature but the open course is numbered 1 and all other frets are, therefore, one number higher than in ordinary Italian tablature. Poulton wants that we do a little mental exercise, and prints it in that form. Curiously enough, I find more easily the right finger combination from that 'tablatura napolitana' than from the regular one. And now to my question: which item is it in the Ness edition? I really can't find it there... Thank you very much, and saludos from Barcelona, Manolo Laguillo PS It is a beautiful piece, BTW... -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Caroline wrote: Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Playing his music on the lute under the stars in NW Pennsylvania. Craig ___ $0 Web Hosting with up to 200MB web space, 1000 MB Transfer 10 Personalized POP and Web E-mail Accounts, and much more. Signup at www.doteasy.com To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
On Thu, 10 Aug 2006, Caroline Usher wrote: Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? The third day has come and gone, but we can still hope for his resurrection. Maybe all it takes is collective hope on the 18th. Do we need to set a time? Peter. Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Room B343 LSRC Mailing address: Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 the next auto-quote is: We are often tempted to think of China as an oppressive country, but we incarcerate 500,000 more people in this country -- despite the fact that we have less than one-fourth the population of China. (Jesse Jackson Sr.) /\/\ Peter Nightingale Telephone (401) 874-5882 Department of Physics, East Hall Fax (401) 874-2380 University of Rhode Island Kingston, RI 02881 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Playing Francesco's music could be a good choice. I found a nice longer fantasia in the Lute in Italy collection - I think I will prepare it for his birthday. Best wishes Thomas -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Caroline Usher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. August 2006 16:07 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Room B343 LSRC Mailing address: Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Celebrating my birthday... :) Alain Caroline Usher wrote: Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Room B343 LSRC Mailing address: Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
- Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:06 am Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Fishing on a remote lake in Ontario. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Playing ALBERT DE RIPPE --- Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Caroline Caroline Usher DCMB Administrative Coordinator 613-8155, Room B343 LSRC Mailing address: Box 91000, Duke University, Durham NC 27708 To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html __ Do You Yahoo!? Tired of spam? Yahoo! Mail has the best spam protection around http://mail.yahoo.com
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Not only is nylon completely authentic but one eliminates all traces of gut afterward! s On Aug 10, 2006, at 11:41 AM, EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote: - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:06 am Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Fishing on a remote lake in Ontario. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Caroline wrote... Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? I just checked my diary and, I have a 'window'... Uh-ho... - This is not another office 'whip-round'is it? Oh, - Francesco da Milano...In that case, a world-wide lute fest? Count me in. Any suggestions? Do we all play the same piece. Or, do we each play our favorite? Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Absolutely...or at least nylon is authentic to the 20th c. The Treatyse of Fyshynge wyth an Angle (anon. 1496, in The Book of St. Albans, attr. Dame Juliana Berners) and Isaak Walton (1654, The Compleat Angler), amongst others, would have me dye and plait strands of horse tail. No thank you! I will delay my debut as a HIA (historically informed angler) for a later date and more proximal venue. Eugene At 05:02 PM 8/10/2006, Sean Smith wrote: Not only is nylon completely authentic but one eliminates all traces of gut afterward! s On Aug 10, 2006, at 11:41 AM, EUGENE BRAIG IV wrote: - Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:06 am Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Fishing on a remote lake in Ontario. Eugene To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
At 05:26 PM 8/10/2006, Ron Fletcher wrote: Caroline wrote... Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Oh, - Francesco da Milano...In that case, a world-wide lute fest? Count me in. Any suggestions? Do we all play the same piece. Or, do we each play our favorite? Serenading oneself under the stars, celebrating one's own birthday, playing the Ripper (the gall!), even going fishing. . . . What, is no one going to spread the Gospel of Francesco to a needy world? Do I have to do everything myself Caroline Caroline Usher Dowager Empress, Lute Society of America Please refer all queries to the current President, Dick Hoban [EMAIL PROTECTED] To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
How about a MP3 collection of our favorite Francesco. I would offer to organize it ... All the best Thomas -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: Ron Fletcher [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Gesendet: Donnerstag, 10. August 2006 23:26 An: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Betreff: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano Caroline wrote... Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? I just checked my diary and, I have a 'window'... Uh-ho... - This is not another office 'whip-round'is it? Oh, - Francesco da Milano...In that case, a world-wide lute fest? Count me in. Any suggestions? Do we all play the same piece. Or, do we each play our favorite? Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
I shall be practising for a concert that I and a friend are giving on the 19th of Francesco and Matelart duets (among other things). I didn't realise that his birthday was on the 18th, but I shall make sure that I mention it to the audience. The concert is taking place in Sandford in Devon in sunny England on the Saturday night. If anyone is around in the SW and wants to come, let me know off-list and I'll send you the details. The lute duo is sharing the evening with a classical guitarist (one of our poorer cousins), but we should have time for a relatively generous programme of Italian and English lute duets. I haven't done much practice yet, so don't come with very high expectations... Peter - Original Message - From: Ron Fletcher [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Lute@cs.dartmouth.edu Sent: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:26 PM Subject: [LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano Caroline wrote... Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? I just checked my diary and, I have a 'window'... Uh-ho... - This is not another office 'whip-round'is it? Oh, - Francesco da Milano...In that case, a world-wide lute fest? Count me in. Any suggestions? Do we all play the same piece. Or, do we each play our favorite? Ron (UK) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html -- No virus found in this incoming message. Checked by AVG Free Edition. Version: 7.0.394 / Virus Database: 268.10.8/415 - Release Date: 09/08/2006
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Caroline wrote... Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? In Cleveland seminar bookstore I bought 2 Francesco's Minkoff facsimiles, and I didn't have time enough, even to open them since then...may be THAT's the day I will! Laura PS: I like Thomas idea of the mp3! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
- Original Message - From: Caroline Usher [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, August 10, 2006 10:06 am Subject: [LUTE] Francesco da Milano Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Sorry, my birthday is Jan. 23... I guess I'll drink a glass of Prosecco when the time will arrive Francesco To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Francesco's birthday is coming up - Aug. 18. What will you be doing? Sorry, my birthday is Jan. 23... I guess I'll drink a glass of Prosecco when the time will arrive And so will I. That Friday will be my and my daughter's one but last day in Incekum, Turkey. I shall have my descant lute with me, probably, and some tablatures. But instead of destroying a fantasia (you see, some 40°C, according to the weather-forecast), I shall rather lift my glass and explain the reason to the interested public at the swimming pool (so much as for the gospel). -- Best, Mathias http://de.geocities.com/mathiasroesel http://mathiasroesel.livejournal.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
On Aug 10, 2006, at 5:38 PM, Caroline Usher wrote: Serenading oneself under the stars, celebrating one's own birthday, playing the Ripper (the gall!), even going fishing. . . . What, is no one going to spread the Gospel of Francesco to a needy world? Do I have to do everything myself Sure, go ahead! ;-) ;-) Just kidding. Personally, I'm gonna send out for some pizza, drink some chianti and play some FdM ricercares. Anybody like to join me? You're welcome to do so! David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[LUTE] Re: Francesco da Milano
Lately I've been knee-deep in the Marsh book but, lo and behold, there on p. 98 and again on 228 Got my pizza fixin's ready, Persieds lined up under a full moon (alas) and we're good to go. Probably the closest I'll get to fishing is deciding against the anchovies. Sean David Rastall [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Aug 10, 2006, at 5:38 PM, Caroline Usher wrote: Serenading oneself under the stars, celebrating one's own birthday, playing the Ripper (the gall!), even going fishing. . . . What, is no one going to spread the Gospel of Francesco to a needy world? Do I have to do everything myself Sure, go ahead! ;-) ;-) Just kidding. Personally, I'm gonna send out for some pizza, drink some chianti and play some FdM ricercares. Anybody like to join me? You're welcome to do so! David R [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.rastallmusic.com -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html --
