Re: [M100] List of wanna haves

[Gary Hammond]

I had a go at using both 3.5" and 5.25" in the DVI at the same time. I was able 
to create a boot 3.5" boot disk and had it booting from the 3.5" drive. Of 
course the problem is that the format of the 3.5" disk bears no resemblance to 
the TPPD/TPPD2.

The reason for doing it is that we can. Do we need any other reason?

From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of Mike Stein
Sent: Sunday, 18 February 2018 6:52 PM
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Subject: Re: [M100] List of wanna haves

It's been a long time, but IIRC there was no problem using the 3.5" disks; of 
course you didn't gain any capacity and they did still only store 360KB. Are 
any of the other folks who played with this still on the list by any chance?

The 4-drive version shown was only a mockup IIRC, but I see no reason why it 
couldn't work with a couple of switches to switch between 5.25 and 3.5.

Unfortunately I can't remember now why we did it... ;-)

Re: [M100] List of wanna haves

[Mike Stein]

It's been a long time, but IIRC there was no problem using the 3.5" disks; of 
course you didn't gain any capacity and they did still only store 360KB. Are 
any of the other folks who played with this still on the list by any chance?

The 4-drive version shown was only a mockup IIRC, but I see no reason why it 
couldn't work with a couple of switches to switch between 5.25 and 3.5.

Unfortunately I can't remember now why we did it... ;-)

m

  - Original Message - 
  From: Kurt McCullum 
  To: m...@bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 10:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [M100] List of wanna haves


  Interesting. Did you ever get the 3.5" disks to work?

   

  Kurt

   

  From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of Mike Stein
  Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 3:28 PM
  To: m...@bitchin100.com
  Subject: Re: [M100] List of wanna haves

   

  Some DVI pics from way back when we were exploring 3.5" disks:

   



   



   

   

   

   

   

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Randall Kindig]

Thanks again, Brian.

I’ll try these steps.  It will make me feel better to get a backup made.

Randy
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 10:26 PM, Brian White  wrote:
> 
> Also make sure your new disks are double density, 360K, not high density, 
> 1.2M.
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 10:24 PM, "Brian White"  > wrote:
> The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.
> 
> It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I 
> don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need a 
> 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also need 
> special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is today, 
> and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have to make 
> a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.
> 
> Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.
> 
> It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the system 
> disk.
> 
> You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:
> 
> RUN"0:FORMAT"
> 
> Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be 
> blanked and formatted.
> 
> Then put the system disk back in and:
> 
> NEW
> RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"
> 
> Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in, 
> then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose 
> All when it asks All or System.
> 
> I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your one 
> remaining working system disk before any of this!
> 
> -- 
> bkw
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 9:19 PM, "Randall Kindig"  > wrote:
> I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
> 
> My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with the 
> cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one working 
> disk.
> 
> How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I create 
> one in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
> 
> thanks
> 
> Randy
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White > > wrote:
>> 
>> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds like 
>> both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other, and one 
>> of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the two best 
>> ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
>> 
>> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
>> 
>> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" > > wrote:
>> SUCCESS!
>> 
>> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested it) 
>> I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations of 
>> DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>> 
>> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>> 
>> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>> 
>> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked multiple 
>> times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it so it’s 
>> more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>> 
>> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if 
>> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort 
>> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine, 
>> but does with the other.
>> 
>> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI 
>> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would take 
>> up far less desk space and be more robust.
>> 
>> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2) 
>> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100 
>> would be much appreciated.
>> 
>> Randy
>> 
>> 
>> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig > > > wrote:
>> >
>> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis > >> > wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so 
>> >> high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different 
>> >> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>> >>
>> >> — John.
>> 
> 
> 

Re: [M100] TDock

[Josh Malone]

I'm kinda on the low-power peripherals side myself, but an RPi solution
could use a ramdisk root filesystem quite easily. This would enable the sd
card to be removed and eliminate any required shutdown procedure. I did
this all the time with embedded boards in the past.

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Brian White]

Also make sure your new disks are double density, 360K, not high density,
1.2M.

On Feb 17, 2018 10:24 PM, "Brian White"  wrote:

The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.

It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I
don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need
a 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also
need special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is
today, and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have
to make a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.

Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.

It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the
system disk.

You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:

RUN"0:FORMAT"

Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be
blanked and formatted.

Then put the system disk back in and:

NEW
RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"

Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in,
then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose
All when it asks All or System.

I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your one
remaining working system disk before any of this!

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 9:19 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
>
> My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with
> the cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one
> working disk.
>
> How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I
> create one in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
>
> thanks
>
> Randy
>
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White  wrote:
>
> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds
> like both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other,
> and one of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the
> two best ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
>
> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
>
> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" 
> wrote:
>
>> SUCCESS!
>>
>> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested
>> it) I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations
>> of DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>>
>> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>>
>> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>>
>> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked
>> multiple times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it
>> so it’s more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>>
>> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if
>> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort
>> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine,
>> but does with the other.
>>
>> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI
>> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would
>> take up far less desk space and be more robust.
>>
>> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2)
>> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100
>> would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not
>> so high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different
>> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>> >>
>> >> — John.
>>
>>
>

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Brian White]

The easiest way is using the backup program on the system disk.

It's possible but I think it's probably more difficult with a modern pc. I
don't think just any modern floppy controller chip can do it, and you need
a 360K drive too, ideally, not the more common 1.2M drive. Then you also
need special formatter software, which I don't know how available that is
today, and don't know if it would work from dosbox or something. Might have
to make a freedos bootable usb stick just to run the disk writing util.

Steven Adolf has some notes on all that on club100 in the member uploads.

It's much simpler to just use "BACKUP.SNG" in your case right from the
system disk.

You would boot the dvi normally, then go into basic and:

RUN"0:FORMAT"

Then follow the prompts to remove the system disk and put in a disk to be
blanked and formatted.

Then put the system disk back in and:

NEW
RUN"0:BACKUP.SNG"

Then follow the prompts to switch back and forth putting the new disk in,
then the system disk, then the new one again, etc, until it's over. Choose
All when it asks All or System.

I would definitely put tape over the write-protect notch on your one
remaining working system disk before any of this!

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 9:19 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.
>
> My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with
> the cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one
> working disk.
>
> How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I
> create one in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?
>
> thanks
>
> Randy
>
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White  wrote:
>
> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds
> like both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other,
> and one of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the
> two best ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
>
> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
>
> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig" 
> wrote:
>
>> SUCCESS!
>>
>> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested
>> it) I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations
>> of DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>>
>> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>>
>> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>>
>> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked
>> multiple times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it
>> so it’s more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>>
>> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if
>> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort
>> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine,
>> but does with the other.
>>
>> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI
>> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would
>> take up far less desk space and be more robust.
>>
>> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2)
>> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100
>> would be much appreciated.
>>
>> Randy
>>
>>
>> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
>> >
>> > Thanks
>> >
>> > Sent from my iPhone
>> >
>> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis 
>> wrote:
>> >>
>> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not
>> so high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different
>> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
>> >>
>> >> — John.
>>
>>
>

Re: [M100] TDock

[Brian White]

Dvi contains a z80, but it doesn't run an OS and wildly outclasses the M100
itself in every possible metric of functionality.

It was common for peripherals to equal the host at least in the earliest
days. You'd have a z80 in the desktop and a z80 in the 300baud acoustic
modem.

Perhaps it's just a matter of terminology.

If you think "peripheral", I at least ask myself, What is the point of the
M100 in the combined system, when the "disk drive" part already has
collossally better versions of everything in the M100? Just stick a usb
keyboard directly on the Pi.

However, this is also true: A pc running a tpdd server isn't a peripheral,
it's a server. The dvi could be seen as a server too. It makes no attempt
to be portable like the M100 itself.

No one can have any problem with a server being more powerful than a
client. Or less powerful for that matter. A file server might be a super
powerful raid box with 8 xeons and 128G of ram, or a single  Pi with a usb
drive.

It was common in the early days for peripherals to roughly equal or even
slightly outclass the host. The host might be an Apple II with a 6502,
while the 300 baud accoustic modem might have a z80 in it. But like the
dvi, the peripheral will have less ram and be running a tiny dedicated rom.
The peripheral won't have it's own vga, hdmi, usb, and nic interfaces and a
general purpose OS that could use them.

Today, many peripherals run full OS's hidden inside, but they are much less
powerful than the hosts which use them, and many peripherals are dumb with
no power and no OS.

I have always used docking stations on all my laptops, and so far they've
always been very "dumb" relative to the laptop. Just boxes of connectors
and interface chips and just enough firmware and controller to glue the
interface chips together and provide some kind of communication bus with
the laptop.

There is another dimension of "this is pointless" or "this is bad math"
which goes directly the other way, which is price and practicality.

A design that uses only plain logic with no or very very little "brains"
appeals to me a lot more than using a whole complex PC running Linux just
to run a program that emulates the crude logic. And using a cpld or fpga to
implement that logic instead of discrete 74 series ttl chips works for me
too. But a DE0 fpga dev kit costs 3x as much as a Pi and is far more
difficult to use. In THAT sense, it makes no sense to use the fpga instead
of the Pi.

So it's just personal engineering preference. I would rather the fpga
solution even if it costs more in parts and is more difficult to produce
and is less flexable all in all.

But I recognize that it is arguable and a matter of taste and easthetics.

Now that we know that our motherboard chipsets have their own entire cpu,
ram, rom, and full general purpose OS right inside a chip that is otherwise
just supposed to be just a chip with a fixed function, ALL bets are off by
this point.




On Feb 17, 2018 9:09 PM, "John R. Hogerhuis"  wrote:

> I guess I’m on the other side of this at least computing power wise.
>
> It doesn’t bother me that peripherals have more power than the model 100.
> At all. In fact, subjugating a super powerful device to model t indentured
> servitude has a certain appeal :-)
>
> DVI does. NADSBox does. palms I used to run dlpilot did. PCs running
> LaddieAlpha do. Wimodem232 does.
>
> But maybe that’s not the issue? Maybe the problem is the linux machines
> need to be booted up and unless you take special measures, properly shut
> down or you end up corrupting the filesystem.
>
> I have used them in embedded systems that get hard power cycled but we
> needed to a bunch of stuff to reduce chance of corruption.
>
> Best bet for using Linux is you need a battery circuit and graceful
> shutdown if power is lost. There are off the shelf boards that do this.
>
> — John
>

Re: [M100] TDock

[Ken Pettit]

Hey John,

Yeah, I guess the whole boot-up / shutdown with RaspPi is a bit 
troublesome, along with the inabliity to remove the SD card when the 
system is up.


Oh, and the NADSBox processor is just barely more powerful than the 
8085.  It only runs at 11.5 MHz and has only 3.8K of RAM. :)


Ken

On 2/17/18 6:09 PM, John R. Hogerhuis wrote:

I guess I’m on the other side of this at least computing power wise.

It doesn’t bother me that peripherals have more power than the model 
100. At all. In fact, subjugating a super powerful device to model t 
indentured servitude has a certain appeal :-)


DVI does. NADSBox does. palms I used to run dlpilot did. PCs running 
LaddieAlpha do. Wimodem232 does.


But maybe that’s not the issue? Maybe the problem is the linux 
machines need to be booted up and unless you take special measures, 
properly shut down or you end up corrupting the filesystem.


I have used them in embedded systems that get hard power cycled but we 
needed to a bunch of stuff to reduce chance of corruption.


Best bet for using Linux is you need a battery circuit and graceful 
shutdown if power is lost. There are off the shelf boards that do this.


— John

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Randall Kindig]

I will check that, Brian.  Thanks for your help.

My other question is around the boot disk.  I was sent 2 boot disks with the 
cable, but now only 1 seems to work.  I’m worried now only having one working 
disk.

How do I back it up?  Is there a way to do that with the DVI?  Can I create one 
in a different disk drive, like the drive in the TRS-80 Model 4P?

thanks

Randy
> On Feb 17, 2018, at 9:15 PM, Brian White  wrote:
> 
> This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds like 
> both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other, and one 
> of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the two best 
> ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.
> 
> I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig"  > wrote:
> SUCCESS!
> 
> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested it) 
> I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations of 
> DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
> 
> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
> 
> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
> 
> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked multiple 
> times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it so it’s 
> more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
> 
> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if 
> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort 
> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine, 
> but does with the other.
> 
> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI 
> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would take 
> up far less desk space and be more robust.
> 
> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2) 
> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100 
> would be much appreciated.
> 
> Randy
> 
> 
> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig  > > wrote:
> >
> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis  >> > wrote:
> >>
> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so 
> >> high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different results 
> >> in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
> >>
> >> — John.
> 

Re: [M100] DVI w/ T200

[Brian White]

What?

On Feb 17, 2018 8:38 PM, "Darryl Pruett"  wrote:

It never had these situation

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Brian White]

This sounds consistent with Fugu's idea about old capacitors. It sounds
like both dvi's are marginal, but one is slightly better than the other,
and one of your M100's is slightly better than the other, and so with the
two best ones combined, it just barely works, sometimes.

I would check that voltage as he described and I expanded.

On Feb 17, 2018 8:37 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> SUCCESS!
>
> Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested
> it) I now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations
> of DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).
>
> DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck
>
> So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!
>
> It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked
> multiple times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it
> so it’s more consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.
>
> I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if
> there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort
> with M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine,
> but does with the other.
>
> This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI
> replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would
> take up far less desk space and be more robust.
>
> Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2)
> doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100
> would be much appreciated.
>
> Randy
>
>
> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig 
> wrote:
> >
> > I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
> >
> > Thanks
> >
> > Sent from my iPhone
> >
> >> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis 
> wrote:
> >>
> >> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not
> so high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different
> results in any of 16 if you haven’t already.
> >>
> >> — John.
>
>

Re: [M100] TDock

[John R. Hogerhuis]

I guess I’m on the other side of this at least computing power wise.

It doesn’t bother me that peripherals have more power than the model 100.
At all. In fact, subjugating a super powerful device to model t indentured
servitude has a certain appeal :-)

DVI does. NADSBox does. palms I used to run dlpilot did. PCs running
LaddieAlpha do. Wimodem232 does.

But maybe that’s not the issue? Maybe the problem is the linux machines
need to be booted up and unless you take special measures, properly shut
down or you end up corrupting the filesystem.

I have used them in embedded systems that get hard power cycled but we
needed to a bunch of stuff to reduce chance of corruption.

Best bet for using Linux is you need a battery circuit and graceful
shutdown if power is lost. There are off the shelf boards that do this.

— John

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Randall Kindig]

SUCCESS!

Per John’s suggestion (and was thinking the same thing when he suggested it) I 
now have a working system.  I started trying different combinations of 
DVI/M100/cable (of which I have 2 each).

DVI #2, M100 #2, Cable #2, no luck

So I swapped out M100 #2 (32K) for M100 #1 (24K/REX), and it worked!

It’s still a little finicky and doesn’t always work, but has worked multiple 
times now.  I don’t know if there’s anything I can do to “tune” it so it’s more 
consistent, but I”m pumped that I finally got it to work.

I had tried this M100/cable combination with DVI #1, so I’m wondering if 
there’s an issue with that DVI.  There also must be an issue of some sort with 
M100 #1 as the current DVI/cable setup didn’t work with that machine, but does 
with the other.

This sure seems like a finicky setup.  I would love to see a modern DVI 
replacement, perhaps with SD card for disk and video output, that would take up 
far less desk space and be more robust.

Thanks all!  Any other suggestions for troubleshooting why the M100 (#2) 
doesn’t work with this and also why DVI #1 doesn’t work with either M100 would 
be much appreciated.

Randy


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 4:22 PM, Randy Kindig  wrote:
> 
> I was just thinking the same thing John.  It’s worth a try.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Sent from my iPhone
> 
>> On Feb 17, 2018, at 3:07 PM, John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
>> 
>> Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so 
>> high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different results 
>> in any of 16 if you haven’t already. 
>> 
>> — John. 

Re: [M100] List of wanna haves

[Mike Stein]

Can't slip anything past you, can I ... ;-)

If you're going to use the ZIF intermediate socket then you'll have to use a 
cover with a cutout as shown in the DVI manual P.9, or no cover at all.

But if you're not going to use the ZIF socket (since you'll be (un)plugging at 
the other end), then there's enough clearance to use the normal cover as shown 
below; there is a corresponding recess in the case bottom for the cable.

I suspect that was the original idea until folks started to break pins on the 
DIP connector, and they supplied the ZIF socket and notched cover as the 
solution.

m
  - Original Message - 
  From: Brian White 
  To: m...@bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 12:06 AM
  Subject: Re: [M100] List of wanna haves


  But your picture that he asked about is not using this cutout cover.



  On Fri, Feb 16, 2018 at 6:06 PM, Mike Stein  wrote:

The DVI came with a replacement cover that has a cutout for the cable:



  - Original Message - 
  From: Fugu ME100 
  To: m...@bitchin100.com 
  Sent: Friday, February 16, 2018 5:11 PM
  Subject: Re: [M100] List of wanna haves


  Very nice, I need to find my velcro.  The M100 to T102 upgrade :)


  Did you cut the cover? Or is sufficiently flexible to bend over the cable?


  From: M100  on behalf of Mike Stein 

  Reply-To: 
  Date: Friday, February 16, 2018 at 11:39 AM
  To: 
  Subject: Re: [M100] List of wanna haves




- Original Message - 
From: Fugu ME100 
To: m...@bitchin100.com 
Sent: Wednesday, February 14, 2018 2:00 PM
Subject: Re: [M100] List of wanna haves
...
> I fixed the Model M100 problem by using a ZIF socket in the IC 
socket.  This I think was the original way the DVI was sold at least based on 
my review of the docs for the DVI.  But yes that is a pain.
=
Yes, the DVI came with a ZIF socket.

Here's my solution, using a bit of Velcro:





  -- 

  bkw

Re: [M100] TDock

[Bob Pigford]

I'm with you, Ken.  I do not want to use a RPi or similar SBC.  A lower-end 
microcontroller on a board with VGA output from a CPLD/FPGA is more desirable 
to me.
I want to continue the retro aura of special purpose add-on devices that 
enhance the functionality of our ModelTs.  Sort of like all the great add-on 
devices for the Color Computer and Atari retro boxes that are well supported by 
their user communities.
Bob


-Original Message-
From: M100 [mailto:m100-boun...@lists.bitchin100.com] On Behalf Of Ken Pettit
Sent: Saturday, February 17, 2018 5:12 PM
To: m...@bitchin100.com
Subject: [M100] TDock

All of the discussion about getting DVI to work and a modern DVI solution made 
me start thinking about TDock again and what it was that made me stop working 
on it.  Largely is was simply lack of time, but also I believe I also felt that 
while using RaspberryPi was maybe the cheapest solution, somehow it never sat 
quite right with me to use a 1GHz processor with 1G RAM as a display terminal 
for a 2.4MHz / 32K processor.

Like it has already been stated, if you are throwing a Linux box into the mix, 
then why not just run VirtualT on the thing and be done.  
Especially if you are bound to a dispay anyway.  Somehow using a lower-end 
microcontroller with a VGA output from a CPLD / FPGA always seemed like a more 
"retro" solution.

Am I crazy for thinking this way?  Or do the majority of people not really care 
about "retro" value and only care that it is dirt cheap (or as close as 
possible)?

Just curious.
Ken

Re: [M100] TDock

[Brian White]

I agree with every part of this.


On Feb 17, 2018 5:12 PM, "Ken Pettit"  wrote:

> All of the discussion about getting DVI to work and a modern DVI solution
> made me start thinking about TDock again and what it was that made me stop
> working on it.  Largely is was simply lack of time, but also I believe I
> also felt that while using RaspberryPi was maybe the cheapest solution,
> somehow it never sat quite right with me to use a 1GHz processor with 1G
> RAM as a display terminal for a 2.4MHz / 32K processor.
>
> Like it has already been stated, if you are throwing a Linux box into the
> mix, then why not just run VirtualT on the thing and be done.  Especially
> if you are bound to a dispay anyway.  Somehow using a lower-end
> microcontroller with a VGA output from a CPLD / FPGA always seemed like a
> more "retro" solution.
>
> Am I crazy for thinking this way?  Or do the majority of people not really
> care about "retro" value and only care that it is dirt cheap (or as close
> as possible)?
>
> Just curious.
> Ken
>

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Brian White]

No no, I was just providing good references for Randy to check against, and
a good/handy place for him to physically touch with meter leads with little
risk of shorting or getting it wrong.

Mine works fine, so Randy should be able to check the same thing on his and
see if his is very different fairly easily.

Both test points I described, the empty bus socket on the M100, and C67
inside the DVI, are easy to identify and easy to touch with plain old meter
probes from any cheap multimeter. On the M100, pin 1 is labelled, and pin 2
is next to it. For the DVI, you need to take the top cover off the DVI, but
that's it. C67 is right on top, front, left. C67 is clearly identified, and
the negative side of C67 is clearly identified with a "-" in a circle.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 4:58 PM, "Fugu ME100"  wrote:

Those voltages would appear to be correct.  With the M100 off it would be
residual charge in the cap or leakages somewhere else on the board giving
the 0.83V.

Well it was worth checking.   It looks like the +5V is getting across and
is very healthy.  Need to ponder some more on why your DVI is not working.


From: M100  on behalf of Brian White <
bw.al...@gmail.com>
Reply-To: 
Date: Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:48 PM
To: 
Subject: Re: [M100] DVI help

That is interesting.

I have just confirmed that there is continuity from pins 1 & 40 on the M100
end of my DVI cable, all the way to the + side of C67 inside the DVI, And
continuity from pins 2 & 39 all the way to the - side of C67 (and every
other ground in the dvi, including the case)

C67 is a small electrolytic cap on the main motherboard of the dvi,
front-left corner right next to the end of the CN1 ribbon cable.

That makes C67 an easy place to measure this voltage while the cabe is
connected and while everything is up & running. It's easy to see, and easy
to get at with multimeter probes.

So you can check the following:

First check the M100 by itself for reference to see how everything else
deviates from there.
Without any cable connected to the M100, and the M100 turned on, I get
5.09v on pins 1 & 2 (red to pin 1, black to pin 2) on the empty M100 bus
connector.

Then with the DVI connected.
With the cable connected and both the M100 and DVI turned on, I get 5.08v
to 5.09v across C67. Black on the (-) side, toward the front of the DVI.

With the DVI turned on but no M100 connected, I get 4.54v across C67.

With the DVI turned on, and the cable connected to the M100, but the M100
turned off, I only get 0.83v across C67

This was all with the M100 just running on batteries.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 2:05 PM, "Fugu ME100"  wrote:

> How are the M100¹s powered? AC or battery?
>
> The DVI box relies on the +5V from the M100 to enable the interface
> without that nothing will happen.  You might want to check that both
> M100¹s are providing a good +5V at pins 1 and 40 on the IC Bus socket.
> Even though the M100¹s are working they can work down to about 4.5V or
> slightly less.
>
> Do you know if the DVIs boxes were working when they were purchased?
>
> The other bad possibility is that both DVI bus interfaces are dead :(  It
> is the weakest link in the chain and they might of both died, on two units
> it should be very unlikely.  However there is an electrolytic cap on the
> DVI interface board that connects to the +5V from the M100. It could of
> leaked and now be pulling the +5V down just enough to prevent the DVI
> interface buffers enabling.  The rest of the unit would not be affected at
> all by this problem.
>
> Do you notice any changes on the M100 when it is plugged into the DVI?
> Sometimes when the +5V is getting loaded you can hear a whine from the on
> board power transformer as it struggles to supply power - at least on my
> M100 :-D
>
>
> On 17/2/18, 8:24 AM, "M100 on behalf of Randall Kindig"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >Ok, I¹m at my wit¹s end here.  I have tried everything now and can¹t get
> >the DVI to work.
> >
> >Here¹s what I have:
> >- 2 M100¹s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
> >- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
> >- 2 DVI to M100 cables
> >- 2 DVI boot disks
> >
> >The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot
> >disks for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.
> >
> >The M100¹s both work great.
> >
> >Here¹s the steps I take:
> >- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I¹ve double and
> >triple-checked that the cable connections are solid and correct on both
> >ends
> >- connect a monitor to the DVI
> >- turn on the monitor
> >- turn on the M100
> >- turn on the DVI without a disk
> >- when it asks for the disk, put it in and close the drive door
> >- the DVI boots to the Microsoft screen
> >- press RESET or CNTL-BREAK-RESET on the M100
> >- NOTHING HAPPENS
> >
> >This is extremely frustrating.  I 

[M100] TDock

[Ken Pettit]

All of the discussion about getting DVI to work and a modern DVI 
solution made me start thinking about TDock again and what it was that 
made me stop working on it.  Largely is was simply lack of time, but 
also I believe I also felt that while using RaspberryPi was maybe the 
cheapest solution, somehow it never sat quite right with me to use a 
1GHz processor with 1G RAM as a display terminal for a 2.4MHz / 32K 
processor.


Like it has already been stated, if you are throwing a Linux box into 
the mix, then why not just run VirtualT on the thing and be done.  
Especially if you are bound to a dispay anyway.  Somehow using a 
lower-end microcontroller with a VGA output from a CPLD / FPGA always 
seemed like a more "retro" solution.


Am I crazy for thinking this way?  Or do the majority of people not 
really care about "retro" value and only care that it is dirt cheap (or 
as close as possible)?


Just curious.
Ken

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Fugu ME100]

Those voltages would appear to be correct.  With the M100 off it would be 
residual charge in the cap or leakages somewhere else on the board giving the 
0.83V.

Well it was worth checking.   It looks like the +5V is getting across and is 
very healthy.  Need to ponder some more on why your DVI is not working.

From: M100 
> 
on behalf of Brian White >
Reply-To: >
Date: Saturday, February 17, 2018 at 1:48 PM
To: >
Subject: Re: [M100] DVI help

That is interesting.

I have just confirmed that there is continuity from pins 1 & 40 on the M100 end 
of my DVI cable, all the way to the + side of C67 inside the DVI, And 
continuity from pins 2 & 39 all the way to the - side of C67 (and every other 
ground in the dvi, including the case)

C67 is a small electrolytic cap on the main motherboard of the dvi, front-left 
corner right next to the end of the CN1 ribbon cable.

That makes C67 an easy place to measure this voltage while the cabe is 
connected and while everything is up & running. It's easy to see, and easy to 
get at with multimeter probes.

So you can check the following:

First check the M100 by itself for reference to see how everything else 
deviates from there.
Without any cable connected to the M100, and the M100 turned on, I get 5.09v on 
pins 1 & 2 (red to pin 1, black to pin 2) on the empty M100 bus connector.

Then with the DVI connected.
With the cable connected and both the M100 and DVI turned on, I get 5.08v to 
5.09v across C67. Black on the (-) side, toward the front of the DVI.

With the DVI turned on but no M100 connected, I get 4.54v across C67.

With the DVI turned on, and the cable connected to the M100, but the M100 
turned off, I only get 0.83v across C67

This was all with the M100 just running on batteries.

--
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 2:05 PM, "Fugu ME100" 
> wrote:
How are the M100¹s powered? AC or battery?

The DVI box relies on the +5V from the M100 to enable the interface
without that nothing will happen.  You might want to check that both
M100¹s are providing a good +5V at pins 1 and 40 on the IC Bus socket.
Even though the M100¹s are working they can work down to about 4.5V or
slightly less.

Do you know if the DVIs boxes were working when they were purchased?

The other bad possibility is that both DVI bus interfaces are dead :(  It
is the weakest link in the chain and they might of both died, on two units
it should be very unlikely.  However there is an electrolytic cap on the
DVI interface board that connects to the +5V from the M100. It could of
leaked and now be pulling the +5V down just enough to prevent the DVI
interface buffers enabling.  The rest of the unit would not be affected at
all by this problem.

Do you notice any changes on the M100 when it is plugged into the DVI?
Sometimes when the +5V is getting loaded you can hear a whine from the on
board power transformer as it struggles to supply power - at least on my
M100 :-D


On 17/2/18, 8:24 AM, "M100 on behalf of Randall Kindig"
 on 
behalf of randall.kin...@gmail.com>
wrote:

>Ok, I¹m at my wit¹s end here.  I have tried everything now and can¹t get
>the DVI to work.
>
>Here¹s what I have:
>- 2 M100¹s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
>- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
>- 2 DVI to M100 cables
>- 2 DVI boot disks
>
>The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot
>disks for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.
>
>The M100¹s both work great.
>
>Here¹s the steps I take:
>- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I¹ve double and
>triple-checked that the cable connections are solid and correct on both
>ends
>- connect a monitor to the DVI
>- turn on the monitor
>- turn on the M100
>- turn on the DVI without a disk
>- when it asks for the disk, put it in and close the drive door
>- the DVI boots to the Microsoft screen
>- press RESET or CNTL-BREAK-RESET on the M100
>- NOTHING HAPPENS
>
>This is extremely frustrating.  I bought 2 of everything just to rule out
>where the issue could be and yet it makes no difference.
>
>I just bought a new DVI, thinking that was the issue because I have 2 of
>all the other pieces and couldn¹t get it to work.  It acts exactly the
>same way as the first DVI.
>
>I¹ll buy a beer for anyone who can help me figure out what¹s happening
>here :)
>
>thanks
>
>Randy
>

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Brian White]

That is interesting.

I have just confirmed that there is continuity from pins 1 & 40 on the M100
end of my DVI cable, all the way to the + side of C67 inside the DVI, And
continuity from pins 2 & 39 all the way to the - side of C67 (and every
other ground in the dvi, including the case)

C67 is a small electrolytic cap on the main motherboard of the dvi,
front-left corner right next to the end of the CN1 ribbon cable.

That makes C67 an easy place to measure this voltage while the cabe is
connected and while everything is up & running. It's easy to see, and easy
to get at with multimeter probes.

So you can check the following:

First check the M100 by itself for reference to see how everything else
deviates from there.
Without any cable connected to the M100, and the M100 turned on, I get
5.09v on pins 1 & 2 (red to pin 1, black to pin 2) on the empty M100 bus
connector.

Then with the DVI connected.
With the cable connected and both the M100 and DVI turned on, I get 5.08v
to 5.09v across C67. Black on the (-) side, toward the front of the DVI.

With the DVI turned on but no M100 connected, I get 4.54v across C67.

With the DVI turned on, and the cable connected to the M100, but the M100
turned off, I only get 0.83v across C67

This was all with the M100 just running on batteries.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 2:05 PM, "Fugu ME100"  wrote:

> How are the M100¹s powered? AC or battery?
>
> The DVI box relies on the +5V from the M100 to enable the interface
> without that nothing will happen.  You might want to check that both
> M100¹s are providing a good +5V at pins 1 and 40 on the IC Bus socket.
> Even though the M100¹s are working they can work down to about 4.5V or
> slightly less.
>
> Do you know if the DVIs boxes were working when they were purchased?
>
> The other bad possibility is that both DVI bus interfaces are dead :(  It
> is the weakest link in the chain and they might of both died, on two units
> it should be very unlikely.  However there is an electrolytic cap on the
> DVI interface board that connects to the +5V from the M100. It could of
> leaked and now be pulling the +5V down just enough to prevent the DVI
> interface buffers enabling.  The rest of the unit would not be affected at
> all by this problem.
>
> Do you notice any changes on the M100 when it is plugged into the DVI?
> Sometimes when the +5V is getting loaded you can hear a whine from the on
> board power transformer as it struggles to supply power - at least on my
> M100 :-D
>
>
> On 17/2/18, 8:24 AM, "M100 on behalf of Randall Kindig"
> 
> wrote:
>
> >Ok, I¹m at my wit¹s end here.  I have tried everything now and can¹t get
> >the DVI to work.
> >
> >Here¹s what I have:
> >- 2 M100¹s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
> >- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
> >- 2 DVI to M100 cables
> >- 2 DVI boot disks
> >
> >The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot
> >disks for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.
> >
> >The M100¹s both work great.
> >
> >Here¹s the steps I take:
> >- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I¹ve double and
> >triple-checked that the cable connections are solid and correct on both
> >ends
> >- connect a monitor to the DVI
> >- turn on the monitor
> >- turn on the M100
> >- turn on the DVI without a disk
> >- when it asks for the disk, put it in and close the drive door
> >- the DVI boots to the Microsoft screen
> >- press RESET or CNTL-BREAK-RESET on the M100
> >- NOTHING HAPPENS
> >
> >This is extremely frustrating.  I bought 2 of everything just to rule out
> >where the issue could be and yet it makes no difference.
> >
> >I just bought a new DVI, thinking that was the issue because I have 2 of
> >all the other pieces and couldn¹t get it to work.  It acts exactly the
> >same way as the first DVI.
> >
> >I¹ll buy a beer for anyone who can help me figure out what¹s happening
> >here :)
> >
> >thanks
> >
> >Randy
> >
>
>
>

Re: [M100] DVI help

[John R. Hogerhuis]

Btw it occurs to me that there are 16 permutations possible there. Not so
high that you couldn’t do all 16 and see if you ever get different results
in any of 16 if you haven’t already.

— John.

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Fugu ME100]

How are the M100¹s powered? AC or battery?

The DVI box relies on the +5V from the M100 to enable the interface
without that nothing will happen.  You might want to check that both
M100¹s are providing a good +5V at pins 1 and 40 on the IC Bus socket.
Even though the M100¹s are working they can work down to about 4.5V or
slightly less.  

Do you know if the DVIs boxes were working when they were purchased?

The other bad possibility is that both DVI bus interfaces are dead :(  It
is the weakest link in the chain and they might of both died, on two units
it should be very unlikely.  However there is an electrolytic cap on the
DVI interface board that connects to the +5V from the M100. It could of
leaked and now be pulling the +5V down just enough to prevent the DVI
interface buffers enabling.  The rest of the unit would not be affected at
all by this problem.

Do you notice any changes on the M100 when it is plugged into the DVI?
Sometimes when the +5V is getting loaded you can hear a whine from the on
board power transformer as it struggles to supply power - at least on my
M100 :-D  


On 17/2/18, 8:24 AM, "M100 on behalf of Randall Kindig"

wrote:

>Ok, I¹m at my wit¹s end here.  I have tried everything now and can¹t get
>the DVI to work.
>
>Here¹s what I have:
>- 2 M100¹s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
>- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
>- 2 DVI to M100 cables
>- 2 DVI boot disks
>
>The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot
>disks for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.
>
>The M100¹s both work great.
>
>Here¹s the steps I take:
>- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I¹ve double and
>triple-checked that the cable connections are solid and correct on both
>ends
>- connect a monitor to the DVI
>- turn on the monitor
>- turn on the M100
>- turn on the DVI without a disk
>- when it asks for the disk, put it in and close the drive door
>- the DVI boots to the Microsoft screen
>- press RESET or CNTL-BREAK-RESET on the M100
>- NOTHING HAPPENS
>
>This is extremely frustrating.  I bought 2 of everything just to rule out
>where the issue could be and yet it makes no difference.
>
>I just bought a new DVI, thinking that was the issue because I have 2 of
>all the other pieces and couldn¹t get it to work.  It acts exactly the
>same way as the first DVI.
>
>I¹ll buy a beer for anyone who can help me figure out what¹s happening
>here :)
>
>thanks
>
>Randy
>

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Randall Kindig]

That is correct, sir.  That’s exactly what’s happening with any combination of 
M100’s, cables, and DVI’s.

> The only other hint I can suggest is that it IS possible to plug the bus 
> connector on a M100 off-center by one pin, and leave 2 pins hanging off the 
> edge of the connector.
I’ve checked and rechecked the M100 end to make sure the pins are all in the 
sockets.  I’ve been paranoid about that.

> It's also possible to plug the m100 side of the cable in backwards since it's 
> not keyed.

Per the manual, the red line on the ribbon is on the right coming out of the 
M100.  If you try it the other way you have to twist the cable to get the DVI 
end of the cable into its slot correctly.

> Do the dvi end of your cables have both a polarity key and a strain relief 
> clip? The polarity key obviously prevents you plugging it in backwards, but 
> the strain relief also ensures you're getting it all the way plugged in, 
> because the latches on the sides couldn't even close all the way unless the 
> plug was all the way in.


yes they do and I’m able to latch the cable end into the DVI.

Randy


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 1:01 PM, Brian White  wrote:
> 
> If you get the 3 lines of microsoft version info on the tv screen, that does 
> prove the drive is working at least well enough to read the first sector.
> 
> When you say nothing happens, let me get this exactly:
> 
> You get both the "please wait" and the "insert system diskette" prompts.
> 
> You close the drive door, and shortly after that the tv screen is showing the 
> 4 lines of microsoft and tandy version info.
> 
> You press reset on the m100.
> 
> The dvi does not react in any way. The drive doesn't start to run, The tv 
> screen doesn't change.
> 
> Is that correct?
> 
> 
> In support of your theory about communication: I just tried on my dvi and I 
> can get all of that exactly the same, without any M100 plugged in at all.
> 
> Also, I found it doesn't actually seem to matter so much about the order 
> things are turned on. I'm sure the order in the manual is somehow the most 
> certain way, while any other way probably just works by luck and may not be 
> garanteed to work every time. So I would continue to do the manual way 
> normally.
> 
> But just to run the rxperiment, I just did it totally out of order by turning 
> the dvi on with no m100 even plugged in. Booted the disk in the dvi still 
> with no m100 connected. THEN plugged in an m100.
> 
> This caused some junk characters to write to the tv screen, which is no 
> surprise because the bus connector is NOT a hot-swap connector! Of course for 
> time mid-way through the act of connecting, some random set of signals are 
> connected and some others are not, and the bus must be a complete train wreck 
> during that second.
> 
> Then I turned the m100 on and pressed reset and the dvi dos loaded and 
> worked. The junk cleared off the tv screen and going into basic and running 
> dvi commands like screen 1,1 and lfiles worked.
> 
> The point of all this is to suggest that it's probably not failing for you 
> because it's so fanatically delicate that it only works if you whispered the 
> prayer with just exactly the right level of sincerity to please the fickle 
> gods.
> 
> It does seem like a cable or other communication problem, given the 2 things 
> I showed here.
> 
> * You can get all of your observed actions with no M100 connected at all.
> 
> * You can get a successful boot (at least some times)  even if you totally 
> violate the heck out of the procedure in the manual. At the very least, 
> pressing the reset button on the m100 should always produce *some* reaction 
> in the dvi. Even if the dos failed to load cleanly, you at least know the 
> reset press itself was communicated.
> 
> I suppose it's possible the communication break could be somewhere else 
> besides the cable. There is a tiny bit of pcb traces in the m100 to the bus 
> connector, and there is a small daughter card and ribbon cable in the dvi for 
> the bus connector. But 2 of them having a bad daugher card or ribbon? Does 
> seem unlikely.
> 
> The only other hint I can suggest is that it IS possible to plug the bus 
> connector on a M100 off-center by one pin, and leave 2 pins hanging off the 
> edge of the connector.
> 
> It's also possible to plug the m100 side of the cable in backwards since it's 
> not keyed.
> 
> Do the dvi end of your cables have both a polarity key and a strain relief 
> clip? The polarity key obviously prevents you plugging it in backwards, but 
> the strain relief also ensures you're getting it all the way plugged in, 
> because the latches on the sides couldn't even close all the way unless the 
> plug was all the way in.
> 
> -- 
> bkw
> 
> On Feb 17, 2018 12:02 PM, "Randall Kindig"  > wrote:
> appreciate the thoughts, John.  My question is: both drives?  That’s why I 
> bought a second DVI; to see if there 

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Brian White]

If you get the 3 lines of microsoft version info on the tv screen, that
does prove the drive is working at least well enough to read the first
sector.

When you say nothing happens, let me get this exactly:

You get both the "please wait" and the "insert system diskette" prompts.

You close the drive door, and shortly after that the tv screen is showing
the 4 lines of microsoft and tandy version info.

You press reset on the m100.

The dvi does not react in any way. The drive doesn't start to run, The tv
screen doesn't change.

Is that correct?


In support of your theory about communication: I just tried on my dvi and I
can get all of that exactly the same, without any M100 plugged in at all.

Also, I found it doesn't actually seem to matter so much about the order
things are turned on. I'm sure the order in the manual is somehow the most
certain way, while any other way probably just works by luck and may not be
garanteed to work every time. So I would continue to do the manual way
normally.

But just to run the rxperiment, I just did it totally out of order by
turning the dvi on with no m100 even plugged in. Booted the disk in the dvi
still with no m100 connected. THEN plugged in an m100.

This caused some junk characters to write to the tv screen, which is no
surprise because the bus connector is NOT a hot-swap connector! Of course
for time mid-way through the act of connecting, some random set of signals
are connected and some others are not, and the bus must be a complete train
wreck during that second.

Then I turned the m100 on and pressed reset and the dvi dos loaded and
worked. The junk cleared off the tv screen and going into basic and running
dvi commands like screen 1,1 and lfiles worked.

The point of all this is to suggest that it's probably not failing for you
because it's so fanatically delicate that it only works if you whispered
the prayer with just exactly the right level of sincerity to please the
fickle gods.

It does seem like a cable or other communication problem, given the 2
things I showed here.

* You can get all of your observed actions with no M100 connected at all.

* You can get a successful boot (at least some times)  even if you totally
violate the heck out of the procedure in the manual. At the very least,
pressing the reset button on the m100 should always produce *some* reaction
in the dvi. Even if the dos failed to load cleanly, you at least know the
reset press itself was communicated.

I suppose it's possible the communication break could be somewhere else
besides the cable. There is a tiny bit of pcb traces in the m100 to the bus
connector, and there is a small daughter card and ribbon cable in the dvi
for the bus connector. But 2 of them having a bad daugher card or ribbon?
Does seem unlikely.

The only other hint I can suggest is that it IS possible to plug the bus
connector on a M100 off-center by one pin, and leave 2 pins hanging off the
edge of the connector.

It's also possible to plug the m100 side of the cable in backwards since
it's not keyed.

Do the dvi end of your cables have both a polarity key and a strain relief
clip? The polarity key obviously prevents you plugging it in backwards, but
the strain relief also ensures you're getting it all the way plugged in,
because the latches on the sides couldn't even close all the way unless the
plug was all the way in.

-- 
bkw

On Feb 17, 2018 12:02 PM, "Randall Kindig"  wrote:

> appreciate the thoughts, John.  My question is: both drives?  That’s why I
> bought a second DVI; to see if there was a problem with the first one.
>
> Also, it seems to me, and I could be totally in left field, that the fact
> that it boots to the Microsoft screen off the disk (both of them do this)
> would indicate that the drive is able to read the disk.  Also, upon reset
> of the M100 the disk drive is supposed to light up and read DVI BASIC off
> the disk.  The drive light for either DVI does not do this.  It seems to me
> (again, I’m not an expert) that this would indicate a problem with the
> communication from the M100 to the DVI.  However, I have 2 cables and 2
> M100’s and it doesn’t work with either.
>
> Randy
>
>
> > On Feb 17, 2018, at 11:50 AM, John R. Hogerhuis 
> wrote:
> >
> > Disk drive broken? Loose belt maybe? Damaged or dirty head?
> >
> > Is there some way you can test it to gain some confidence? Say, in a pc?
> >
> > That’s what was wrong with Brian’s DVI in the end.
> >
> > I think there are some disk drive replacements around. Either you could
> buy a new one or find a gadget that uses flash in place of disk.
> >
> > Floppy drives were maintenance issues back in the day, with old hardware
> I’m surprised they ever work at all.
> >
> > — John.
>
>

Re: [M100] DVI help

[Randall Kindig]

appreciate the thoughts, John.  My question is: both drives?  That’s why I 
bought a second DVI; to see if there was a problem with the first one.

Also, it seems to me, and I could be totally in left field, that the fact that 
it boots to the Microsoft screen off the disk (both of them do this) would 
indicate that the drive is able to read the disk.  Also, upon reset of the M100 
the disk drive is supposed to light up and read DVI BASIC off the disk.  The 
drive light for either DVI does not do this.  It seems to me (again, I’m not an 
expert) that this would indicate a problem with the communication from the M100 
to the DVI.  However, I have 2 cables and 2 M100’s and it doesn’t work with 
either.

Randy


> On Feb 17, 2018, at 11:50 AM, John R. Hogerhuis  wrote:
> 
> Disk drive broken? Loose belt maybe? Damaged or dirty head?
> 
> Is there some way you can test it to gain some confidence? Say, in a pc?
> 
> That’s what was wrong with Brian’s DVI in the end. 
> 
> I think there are some disk drive replacements around. Either you could buy a 
> new one or find a gadget that uses flash in place of disk.  
> 
> Floppy drives were maintenance issues back in the day, with old hardware I’m 
> surprised they ever work at all. 
> 
> — John. 

Re: [M100] DVI help

[John R. Hogerhuis]

Disk drive broken? Loose belt maybe? Damaged or dirty head?

Is there some way you can test it to gain some confidence? Say, in a pc?

That’s what was wrong with Brian’s DVI in the end.

I think there are some disk drive replacements around. Either you could buy
a new one or find a gadget that uses flash in place of disk.

Floppy drives were maintenance issues back in the day, with old hardware
I’m surprised they ever work at all.

— John.

[M100] DVI help

[Randall Kindig]

Ok, I’m at my wit’s end here.  I have tried everything now and can’t get the 
DVI to work.

Here’s what I have:
- 2 M100’s, 1 with 24K and and 1 with 32K
- 2 very clean DVI boxes with a single drive
- 2 DVI to M100 cables
- 2 DVI boot disks

The cables have been tested by the guy who made them.  So have the boot disks 
for the DVI.  There are 2 boot disks for backup.

The M100’s both work great.

Here’s the steps I take:
- connect the cable from the M100 to the DVI.  I’ve double and triple-checked 
that the cable connections are solid and correct on both ends
- connect a monitor to the DVI
- turn on the monitor
- turn on the M100
- turn on the DVI without a disk
- when it asks for the disk, put it in and close the drive door
- the DVI boots to the Microsoft screen
- press RESET or CNTL-BREAK-RESET on the M100
- NOTHING HAPPENS

This is extremely frustrating.  I bought 2 of everything just to rule out where 
the issue could be and yet it makes no difference.

I just bought a new DVI, thinking that was the issue because I have 2 of all 
the other pieces and couldn’t get it to work.  It acts exactly the same way as 
the first DVI.

I’ll buy a beer for anyone who can help me figure out what’s happening here :)

thanks

Randy