RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Simon Fogarty]

And you can have up to 5 setup on the device so you've got a good chance of 
getting it right if they have all setup.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 8:18 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

You should be able to dust the phone for prints and see which ones are in 
contact with the surface?

Plus you only have 10, you could try at least 8 of them probably with out issue.


Good thought though, this is the type of stuff the investigators think about so 
it’s a good effort to try to think about the problem from their angle.

Great responses Michael, thanks for the thought provokers.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:15 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> Maybe he chose not to activate the fingerprint reader. Even if he did, how 
> would you know which finger he chose? If you didn't get the fingers 
> absolutely right the first time, you could destroy the data on the phone.
> 
> Michael
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
>> fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
>> about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even 
>> a finger and just use that?
>> 
>> Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
>>> as the fingerprints of  those involved.
>>> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise 
>>> to develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their 
>>> privacy compromised in this fashion.
>>> After  all consider how often the government has themselves been 
>>> hacked, not only could this key be abused by the government, it 
>>> could be stolen by others. Just my take, Karen
>>> 
>>> 
 On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
 
 Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being 
 forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
 
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RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Simon Fogarty]

Apart from that point where if your phone battery dies and you need to use the 
pin code to open it for the first time

Or did they even have finguerprints setup on the devices.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 8:11 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even a 
finger and just use that?

Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
> as the fingerprints of  those involved.
> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
> develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
> compromised in this fashion.
> After  all consider how often the government has themselves been 
> hacked, not only could this key be abused by the government, it could 
> be stolen by others. Just my take, Karen
> 
> 
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
> 
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>> 
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RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Simon Fogarty]

Doesn't the NSA watch you guys when your on the John?

I'm glad I live in the deep south down under, no one really cares about us 
other than in rugby 

That's a sport where players don't wear pads or helmets 

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 7:41 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

You don’t have to sell me about the over reach of Government.  I’ve been a 
Libertarian since before it was cool.:)

(ok it still probably isn’t but that’s besides the point)

You’re absolutely right though.  I have worked for telephone companies and 
global carriers for years now and I’ll tell you that all the stuff you 
mentioned is already done  They do listen to every call with complex systems 
that preprocess conversations and sort them in to interest / prioritized piles. 
 Your phone tracks your position.  The way you deal with this is understand 
what is being done to you, restrict as much as you can and deal with the 
political system and your representatives.

That’s about all you can do.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse  wrote:
> 
> Scot, but now imagine that apple looses… just for the sake of the 
> discussion… what will be next, our cars? the sat nav? when will it 
> stop?
> 
> On 2/18/16, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> So the EFF is with apple I believe, Google and Facebook, it’s just 
>> the media who the government controls and the FBI who want this.
>> 
>> Just to add one small correction though, the pin isn’t the key it’s self.
>> So while you’re right about the number of combinations of 4 digits 
>> the actual number of combinations is probably more like 2 to the 
>> 2048th power combinations.  The pin is but a seed / pass phrase 
>> component of the key pair.
>> 
>> Since it seems most people are on the side of Apple we should all 
>> write Apple in support and write our congress persons letting them 
>> know we don’t support this intrusion.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse 
>>> 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> so here is the thing, from what i understand and iPhones are not my 
>>> favorite subject, but ill try my best.
>>> When you lock your iPhone the key too encrypt it all is on your 
>>> phone, apple don't have it anymore, so not even they can unlock the 
>>> iPhone, not even if they wanted, if you use a lock code on say 4 
>>> digits, there is 1 different combinations, and it gets worse 
>>> seen form Fbis point of view, because after i believe it is 10 times 
>>> wrong passcode, the phone erases it self.
>>> I personally like this feature, not that i have anything interesting 
>>> on my phone, but i like the fact that my data is actually secure, 
>>> problem is if they find a way to force apple into making something 
>>> that works, even if it is just for one iPhone, guess  what the next 
>>> time the shit hits the fan there will be precedence for having apple 
>>> roll their magic again.
>>> And that might be the dangerous part. It seems that google is with 
>>> apple on this one at least they sites with them, but have anyone 
>>> heard any Ms comments?
>>> 
>>> On 2/18/16, E.T.  wrote:
 Michael,
   I urge you to do your own moderating by using that delete key on 
 messages that bother you. I had to do that very task hundreds of 
 times just this week. And I expect that task is far from over. 
 (smiles)
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
 true?
 
 On 2/18/2016 9:52 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
> Two questions:
> 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for 
> any other? That supposition is non-sensical to me.
> 
> 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple 
> design some sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a 
> specific device to Apple, who could then take the device apart, 
> and read/decrypt the data, much as one might now do through the 
> removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
> Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part 
> of the operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement 
> perform their task?
> For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right 
> thing. A couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us 
> who deserve incryption and who would not misuse it.
> I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Any 

RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Simon Fogarty]

I'm not an American, but 
It does concern me if Donald trump gets in.
God help us all.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 6:54 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

The Patriot Act was exactly what came to mind. This is what scares me about 
the Republicans. I shall say no more.

Just keep those grubby little fingers out of my private life which is 
hardly private any more.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:40 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
> ET very well stated.
>
> The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking what 
> Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
> specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
> that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security on 
> the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse 
> hockey.
>
> This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end 
> run right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in 
> place there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father 
> land security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  
> Good luck!
>
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>
>>Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I 
>> say, once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a sticky 
>> wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?
>>
>>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
>> true?
>>
>> On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>>
>>
>> --
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RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Simon Fogarty]

Were they americans?

 I thought they were European of some kind?
And on that note of another type of tool that could get things unlocked and 
able to be viewed by the FBI,
I guess it's security again though but could they somehow take copies of 
fingerprints setup on a device and then if the situation required it apple 
could provide that to the feds for use in apples presence to aquire the data.

Either way, if something gets out it's all our data availe to be world.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Michael Malver
Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 6:53 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

Two questions:
1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
That supposition is non-sensical to me.

2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some sort 
of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, who 
could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one might 
now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A couple 
bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve incryption and 
who would not misuse it.
I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
especially for blind users.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
> I have a very important comment:
> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind 
> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right 
> about this.
>
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>
>> --
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>>
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The 

RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Simon Fogarty]

And it will effect everyone world wide using  iPhones or possibly any IOS 
device.

I'd say just don't sell them to terrorists but hay which one is the terrorist?



-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 6:40 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

ET very well stated.

The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking what 
Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security on 
the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse 
hockey.

This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end run 
right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in place 
there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father land 
security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  Good 
luck!

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I say, 
> once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a sticky 
> wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
> true?
> 
> On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>> 
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
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RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Simon Fogarty]

Not following it but I agree with him whole hartedly 

It doesn't take much for someone to work a jailbreak for an iphone IOS when 
it's out, so how long would it take for someone to find the back door into the 
OS if they did put one in.

 
There was the same sort of issue with blackberrys and their encryption.

I say stay true apple,  your customers want the security of their data
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Friday, 19 February 2016 6:28 AM
To: MacVisionaries 'Chris Blouch' via 
Subject: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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RE: finally got trillion up and running and have a question.

[BBS]

Hi Jessica. My offline contacts are hidden by default. I don't know why that 
isn't the case for you. By the way, they released Trillian 3.4 which fixes the 
accessibility issues and more. It's not in the app store yet but I have it.


Shawn
Sent From My White MacBook Via Bootcamp and Windows 10
Twitter Handle: shawnk_aka_bbs
Facebook Username: Shawn Krasniuk
Skype Username: bbstheblindrapper
Facetime Username: bbssh...@icloud.com


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Jessica Moss
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 8:26 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: finally got trillion up and running and have a question.

Ok, with a ton of playing around with it, I finally got trillian up and 
running, however, it now wants to show every single contact I have on facebook, 
which is over 100, whether they're on line or not, and is a pain in the neck to 
deal with, sense it doesn't say if they're on line or not.  Is there any way to 
hide my off line contacts?

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finally got trillion up and running and have a question.

[Jessica Moss]

Ok, with a ton of playing around with it, I finally got trillian up and 
running, however, it now wants to show every single contact I have on facebook, 
which is over 100, whether they're on line or not, and is a pain in the neck to 
deal with, sense it doesn't say if they're on line or not.  Is there any way to 
hide my off line contacts?

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Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

Hmm,
Well I thought I had it because the credit card came up on the phone, and it 
vibrated. I plan on going out again this weekend.
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 7:57 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Sarai,
> 
> It sounds to me as though you were either not close enough to the actual 
> transmitter which usually sits about 3 to 4 inches above the terminal's 
> display or, somehow, the case was impeding the transmission.  
> 
> I suggest that you attempt a transaction with the phone out of the case and 
> see what happens.  
> 
> Also, locate the actual transmitter with your hand before beginning the 
> process.  After a while, you will learn where the transmitters sit, relative 
> to the display, at various vendors.  For example, all of the Macdonald 
> terminals are the same, just as those at Whole Foods are the same.  If you 
> frequent a particular vendor, enough, you will remember where to place the 
> phone for each.  
> 
> If this sounds complicated, remember that the world is made for sighted 
> people.  To a sighted patron, 1 or 2 inches in any direction is of no 
> consequence as hand-eye coordination is virtually instantaneous.  However, 
> for those of us who are blind or low vision, 1 or 2 inches may just as well 
> be one or two miles, proverbially speaking.
> 
> Mark
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sarai Bucciarelli
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 4:37 PM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay
> 
> Hi Mark:
> I do not have my phone in a normal case. I have the Spek case that covers the 
> back, and a Zagg glass screen protector. I was laying my phone on top of the 
> terminal then moving up a bit.
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:37 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
>> 
>> Two more things to consider when using Apple Pay, Sarai,
>> 
>> 1.
>> The terminal transmitter is not necessarily directly adjacent to the 
>> terminal's display.  When I first began using Apple Pay, I would virtually 
>> lay the phone against the display of the terminal, while this usually 
>> worked, it did not always work.  I discovered, over time, that, in some 
>> cases, the actual transmitter can be as far as 4 inches above the display.
>> 
>> 2.
>> If you have your phone in a case, make certain that the case is not impeding 
>> the signal.  I'm almost certain this is not the problem but, nevertheless, 
>> it is something to consider.  For the record, I use a folio style leather 
>> case, made by Case Mate, and have never encountered a problem based on the 
>> case.  Just wanted to offer this for your consideration.
>> 
>> Mark  
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sarai Bucciarelli
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 5:51 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay
>> 
>> Hi:
>> I did. Says default card.
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Did you verify that the credit card was fully authorized? Go back into your 
>>> wallet and read the details of the offending card. 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 17, 2016, at 20:25, Sarai Bucciarelli  
 wrote:
 
 Hi guys:
 I have a new iphone 6s. I bought it for Apple pay. I cannot get it to 
 work! I went to Sprouts, and Petco, who have apple pay. I held my phone up 
 to the reader. Phone vibrated, and brought up my credit card. I touched 
 the finger id. nothing happened! I cannot figure it out!
 Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
 
 -- 
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 Visionaries list.
 
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 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the 
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>>> Visionaries list.
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RE: Frustrated with Apple Pay

[M. Taylor]

Sarai,

It sounds to me as though you were either not close enough to the actual 
transmitter which usually sits about 3 to 4 inches above the terminal's display 
or, somehow, the case was impeding the transmission.  

I suggest that you attempt a transaction with the phone out of the case and see 
what happens.  

Also, locate the actual transmitter with your hand before beginning the 
process.  After a while, you will learn where the transmitters sit, relative to 
the display, at various vendors.  For example, all of the Macdonald terminals 
are the same, just as those at Whole Foods are the same.  If you frequent a 
particular vendor, enough, you will remember where to place the phone for each. 
 

If this sounds complicated, remember that the world is made for sighted people. 
 To a sighted patron, 1 or 2 inches in any direction is of no consequence as 
hand-eye coordination is virtually instantaneous.  However, for those of us who 
are blind or low vision, 1 or 2 inches may just as well be one or two miles, 
proverbially speaking.

Mark
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Sarai Bucciarelli
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 4:37 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay

Hi Mark:
I do not have my phone in a normal case. I have the Spek case that covers the 
back, and a Zagg glass screen protector. I was laying my phone on top of the 
terminal then moving up a bit.
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:37 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Two more things to consider when using Apple Pay, Sarai,
> 
> 1.
> The terminal transmitter is not necessarily directly adjacent to the 
> terminal's display.  When I first began using Apple Pay, I would virtually 
> lay the phone against the display of the terminal, while this usually worked, 
> it did not always work.  I discovered, over time, that, in some cases, the 
> actual transmitter can be as far as 4 inches above the display.
> 
> 2.
> If you have your phone in a case, make certain that the case is not impeding 
> the signal.  I'm almost certain this is not the problem but, nevertheless, it 
> is something to consider.  For the record, I use a folio style leather case, 
> made by Case Mate, and have never encountered a problem based on the case.  
> Just wanted to offer this for your consideration.
> 
> Mark  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sarai Bucciarelli
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 5:51 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay
> 
> Hi:
> I did. Says default card.
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>> 
>> Did you verify that the credit card was fully authorized? Go back into your 
>> wallet and read the details of the offending card. 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 20:25, Sarai Bucciarelli  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi guys:
>>> I have a new iphone 6s. I bought it for Apple pay. I cannot get it to work! 
>>> I went to Sprouts, and Petco, who have apple pay. I held my phone up to the 
>>> reader. Phone vibrated, and brought up my credit card. I touched the finger 
>>> id. nothing happened! I cannot figure it out!
>>> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
>>> 
>>> -- 
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>>> Visionaries list.
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>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
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>> 
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>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> 

Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

Ok, I have: heading, cards, Visa card, ends with 1234. Flick to right and you 
hearadd credit or debit card, allow access when locked, double click home 
button on transaction defaults credit card name button. I double tap the button 
says choose a card, sellected card, Visa 1234. The card says selected. it’s my 
only card. I can remove card, and that is it. I have billing and shipping 
address filled out too.
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 8:39 AM, Jonathan C. Cohn  wrote:
> 
> info? 
> 
> Also, there is a card name in the more info followed by the word installed. 
> Despite being not labeled as a button or link this is clickable on my phone 
> and might give more details. What does the screen say when you click more 
> 
> 
> Jonathan Cohn 
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 8:50 AM, Sarai Bucciarelli  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi:
>> I did. Says default card.
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Did you verify that the credit card was fully authorized? Go back into your 
>>> wallet and read the details of the offending card. 
>>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 17, 2016, at 20:25, Sarai Bucciarelli  
 wrote:
 
 Hi guys:
 I have a new iphone 6s. I bought it for Apple pay. I cannot get it to 
 work! I went to Sprouts, and Petco, who have apple pay. I held my phone up 
 to the reader. Phone vibrated, and brought up my credit card. I touched 
 the finger id. nothing happened! I cannot figure it out!
 Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
 
 -- 
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 Visionaries list.
 
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>>> 
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>> 
>> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
>> 
>> -- 
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>> 
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> 
> -- 
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac Visionaries 
> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or 

Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

Hi Mark:
I do not have my phone in a normal case. I have the Spek case that covers the 
back, and a Zagg glass screen protector. I was laying my phone on top of the 
terminal then moving up a bit.
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:37 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Two more things to consider when using Apple Pay, Sarai,
> 
> 1.
> The terminal transmitter is not necessarily directly adjacent to the 
> terminal's display.  When I first began using Apple Pay, I would virtually 
> lay the phone against the display of the terminal, while this usually worked, 
> it did not always work.  I discovered, over time, that, in some cases, the 
> actual transmitter can be as far as 4 inches above the display.
> 
> 2.
> If you have your phone in a case, make certain that the case is not impeding 
> the signal.  I'm almost certain this is not the problem but, nevertheless, it 
> is something to consider.  For the record, I use a folio style leather case, 
> made by Case Mate, and have never encountered a problem based on the case.  
> Just wanted to offer this for your consideration.
> 
> Mark  
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Sarai Bucciarelli
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 5:51 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay
> 
> Hi:
> I did. Says default card.
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>> 
>> Did you verify that the credit card was fully authorized? Go back into your 
>> wallet and read the details of the offending card. 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 20:25, Sarai Bucciarelli  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi guys:
>>> I have a new iphone 6s. I bought it for Apple pay. I cannot get it to work! 
>>> I went to Sprouts, and Petco, who have apple pay. I held my phone up to the 
>>> reader. Phone vibrated, and brought up my credit card. I touched the finger 
>>> id. nothing happened! I cannot figure it out!
>>> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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>> 
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>> Visionaries list.
>> 
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>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
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> 
> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
> 
> -- 
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> list.
> 
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> 
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Re: FYI: DRM is Evil. Very, Very, Very Evil

[Sabahattin Gucukoglu]

Thanks to everybody else who got in touch to help me with this situation. I 
will explain in detail the DRM at the end of the post, so people living in 
restricted countries can tune out and avoid the thought police, but you all 
played your part in helping me understand how it worked.

My brother got his account back. For whatever reason, his pleading with Amazon 
got his account reopened. Maybe it was that he mentioned that he was blind. The 
memo went all the way up to the CEO of Amazon in the UK, which might have meant 
that the RNIB got involved after all. Whatever the reason, he can now log in to 
his account, make and return purchases and access his Audible content on any 
device once again. Cheers all round. Well, except for the disappointment that 
is DRM, of course. I'll never be grateful for that. We've all learned an 
important lesson. As soon as my brother gets the gumption together, and now 
that he has the time, I'm going to help him download all his books and strip 
out the DRM. That way this can't happen to him again.

For myself, I have already completely stripped the DRM from my Audible books 
collection, with no loss of quality whatsoever, and maintaining the original 
format and encoding. I was too late to return my Audible credits, but I would 
have, if I could have; Amazon didn't notify me, in December, when the renewal 
happened, and you only get 14 days to cancel your membership. Dirty trick, 
that. Still, with these credits on hand, I might as well stock up on books that 
I've already paid for. The removal of the DRM means, quite simply, that Audible 
has a great deal more value to me than it otherwise would have. I can buy 
timeless books I will actually value for eternity because they don't have DRM 
to make them rot, I can get access to Audible exclusives, and I can use my USB 
MP3 player to play the books in the other room, which ironically probably means 
I'll have more time for listening. Naturally, though, I don't reward bad 
behaviour when I can possibly help it, so I'm going to try and avoid them for 
new purchases, just as I promised to. These bastards can only hurt people 
because we let them, so I'm going to try the various alternatives that have 
been suggested, particularly Downpour. Oh, and no, piracy isn't an option I'm 
happy with, no matter the provocation; at best it's something to be resorted to 
if there are no other options for obtaining the content and there is a 
specific, compelling reason to have it.

Now, what follows is a discussion of the DRM itself. If you're living in an 
uncivilised nation where corporations write the rules (i.e. the US), then you 
can stop reading now and avoid a visit from the thought police.

The tool of choice is called Inaudible. It is somewhat hard to find, but 
happily, the news is spreading, if you know where to look, and as always, 
especially among Open Sourcerers who don't mind getting their hands dirty. It 
can perform lossless decryption of Audible book files. The latest format, 
Audible Enhanced (file extension .aax) is an MPEG4 container with chapter 
markings in the metadata atoms, encrypted with a per-subscriber key. On 
Windows, Inaudible is pretty much a point-and-click affair, and can be 
automated entirely. On OS X, Inaudible includes the tools required, but not the 
shell scripting knowledge to do bulk conversions, and its UI seems to be 
limited specifically to converting one book at a time, although it is still 
useful for discovering keys and testing the tools.

The basic idea of breaking the DRM is first to find your four-byte "Activation 
secret" and then to convert the audible file into a regular MPEG4 container 
using that secret. The secret is the golden key with which your files are 
encrypted for all of a subscriber's files. There are three ways to find it: 
from your existing player, from Audible's own activation server, and by 
brute-force. Inaudible seems to be using the third method, and has rainbow 
tables with precomputed keys and a custom implementation for the Audible 
algorithm for the open-source rcrack tool. It seems to work well, even without 
access to iTunes or Audible Manager, as was apparently required in the past. I 
suppose we should be glad that DRM purveyors are stupid as well as malicious; 
the key is 64 bits and is usually found in seconds. However, for a fully 
networked solution, there is the "Audible activator" from the same open-source 
inaudible-ng project--basically a tool for sending the username and password 
query to Audible's server for activation, just as your client would.

Now you have your secret, store it away in a safe place. This is your ultimate 
weapon, together with your Audible files, if you should get disconnected from 
Audible. Next comes the actual decryption process. This part I learned from the 
Mac Inaudible tool: ffmpeg is, as it is so often, your friend. Ffmpeg is a 
well-known general-purpose audio/video manipulation tool. The Audible format is 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

['Chris Blouch' via MacVisionaries]

Just a few summary bits:

1. The phone uses the user's PIN and a unique value burned into the 
device to come up with encryption key so there isn't a way to get that 
ID out of the device without first unlocking the device. There is also 
the 10 try limit and then the data self destructs, so it's a pretty 
tough nut for the law folks to crack without ruining the contents.


2. The issue is not the event but the path it places Apple on. The US 
government is not the only one clamoring for a crack in the armor. If 
Apple does it for the US, I'm sure the firehose would be open and they 
would have every other government and nation on the planet lined up at 
their door as well. Some of those nations may or may not keep that 
special privileged for the purpose intended. So I can understand Cook's 
lack of enthusiasm to open Pandora's box.


3. At least it's a somewhat fair fight. Apple is a Goliath that has the 
resources to stand behind what it says. Not so much if the government 
went after some little software vendor or the like. Apple can wait it 
out, fight it out and do whatever it takes to stand their ground.


4. If Apple loses or caves and anyone can snoop your device, that just 
scatters the roaches to other places and platforms. If Apple, due to 
it's US-centric operations can't hold onto it's security then the bad 
guys will just migrate to other tools from other locales which have not 
been cracked.


A wrench can be used to both repair and maim, so should it be saddled 
with regulation and control due to a potential bad actor using it for 
ill purposes? If so, will the tool's utility be diminished or ruined 
under the burden?


CB

On 2/18/16 12:57 PM, Scott Granados wrote:

Hi Michael,

I agree with you on the first I think this topic is equally important to any 
citizens or anyone who does business or transacts with in the US.  So I agree I 
think it’s important for blind users but in the same way it’s important for 
left handed users or PC users.:)

Secondly, you ask a good question but think it through with me.  Once you 
introduce a mechanism to break through security you make an opening available 
to be exploited.  So let’s say Apple develops some magical way to crack their 
cyphers, that method now exists for the bad guys.  Once it exists you can’t put 
it back in the box.  So what Apple doesn’t want to do is compromise everyones 
security just to examine the contents of a single phone.

Does that make sense I hope I explained that well.

Good question btw.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:

Two questions:
1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
That supposition is non-sensical to me.

2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some sort 
of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, who 
could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one might 
now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A couple 
bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve incryption and 
who would not misuse it.
I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
especially for blind users.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:

I have a very important comment:
This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind people 
interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right about this.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[E.T.]

   Thanks Gabe. I thought that was the case so it remains to be seen if 
it was a 5c I heard then it makes the fingerprint issue a moot point.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 2:19 PM, Gabe Griffith wrote:

Hi,

I didn't see an answer to your question about the 5c having fingerprint ID. The 
answer is no it doesn't. I had one for a couple of years and couldn't ever use 
the fingerprint ID until I upgraded to the 6s.

Gabe


On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:19 AM, E.T.  wrote:


   I may be mistaken but I think I heard this phone is a 5c. Does that model 
support fingerprint ID? Still, if one door is closed, another can be legally 
opened. I fail to see how the missing 18 minutes can be sufficient grounds for 
trashing what is left of our privacy. Where is Daniel Webster when we need him 
the most?

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 11:10 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even a 
finger and just use that?

Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such as 
the fingerprints of  those involved.
A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
compromised in this fashion.
After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by others. 
Just my take,
Karen


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Gabe Griffith]

Hi,

I didn't see an answer to your question about the 5c having fingerprint ID. The 
answer is no it doesn't. I had one for a couple of years and couldn't ever use 
the fingerprint ID until I upgraded to the 6s.

Gabe


On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:19 AM, E.T.  wrote:

>   I may be mistaken but I think I heard this phone is a 5c. Does that model 
> support fingerprint ID? Still, if one door is closed, another can be legally 
> opened. I fail to see how the missing 18 minutes can be sufficient grounds 
> for trashing what is left of our privacy. Where is Daniel Webster when we 
> need him the most?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 2/18/2016 11:10 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
>> fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
>> about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even 
>> a finger and just use that?
>> 
>> Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
>>> as the fingerprints of  those involved.
>>> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise 
>>> to develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their 
>>> privacy compromised in this fashion.
>>> After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, 
>>> not only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by 
>>> others. Just my take,
>>> Karen
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> 
 Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being 
 forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
 
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Re: full keyboard for Mac

[Caitlyn Furness]

Hi,
apple sells a full sized keyboard.  It’s wired, and I honestly can’t remember 
how much it cost since I got mine 6 years ago when I got my i mac.

There is no set up required and it works fine with vo.

hth,
Caitlyn

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 3:26 PM, Christina C.  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Can anyone suggest a good keyboard for my Mac with a num pad? Wired or 
> wireless is fine, I prefer budget friendly  but I am open to ideas as long as 
> it is easy to set up as a blind person and works well with all the voice Over 
> key combinations. It also does not have to be apple brand. I actually have 
> trouble pairing this apple blue tooth keyboard because I can’t tell if it’s 
> in pairing mode or even on. I also hate constantly changing the batteries on 
> this one, for some reason the batteries die quickly. I really miss having a 
> num pad and would love to get a keyboard with a num pad because it’s much 
> easier for me to type numbers quickly and accurately that way.
> 
> Thanks,
> Christina
> 
> -- 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

Well said to be sure.  that is one reason why I am suggesting if it works 
for you visiting the news area of google.
At last count there were over 4 thousand articles referenced from  various 
sources.
Even with some of those referencing the same article, one has a fine way 
to get informed in an objective fashion.

Karen


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, E.T. wrote:


Karen,
  A good observation coming from one who is inside such a business. But its 
my observation that every individual who sees or hears the same event, even 
standing side by side, will have a different interpretation of that event. 
The media is not immune to this. But people who rely on more than one source 
will see a more complete picture though unlikely a fully complete one.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 12:06 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

 I have been a media professional for many years.  These days, someone
 might read a twitter post or a Facebook one and decide it is news, but i
 assure you that  the  major American media is not in the pocket of the
 government. Far too many  of them are getting the story right to base an
 entire industry on one  station  using one newsroom located  in one city.
 I am not surprised someone corrected the issue on air in California
 though.
 Kare   No, they are traditional news sources.  The KGO radio story ran for
>  more than one day with that misinformation.  It was one of the talk
>  show hosts themselves that set the news department straight on the
>  air.  WBZ I have no idea what their problem is, it’s a major CBS
>  station.  I think it just convinces me more that the media is in the
>  pocket of the government.  It’s the gun deal all over again, spread as
>  much misinformation and then act like it was an honest mistake.
> 
> 
> >  On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Karen Lewellen

> >   wrote:
> > 
> >  really?

> >  Would love to know what reporter with those outlets did not do their
> >  homework.
> >  A swift review of google news sources clears up that mystery..frankly
> >  so does reading Tim's statement.
> >  were those blogs?
> >  Might explain the error.
> > 
> > 
> >  On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
> > 
> > >  CBS, WBZ out of Boston this morning was reporting that Apple was

> > >  being asked to break in to the individual phone only, not develop a
> > >  tool to access all phones which is in fact the case.
> > > 
> > >  Also, KGO out of San Francisco was reporting the same thing.  So no
> > >  but I’m glad to see that the sources you mention are discussing 
> > >  the

> > >  topic correctly.
> > > 
> > > >  On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Karen Lewellen

> > > >   wrote:
> > > > 
> > > >  I am wondering what media you are following.

> > > >  articles in the La times, the Washington post, bloomberg, even usa
> > > >  today, are linking directly  to Mr. Cook's statement.  Further 
> > > >  many
> > > >  are sharing how the FBI could be solving this issue, taking note 
> > > >  of

> > > >  other industry companies who are concerned.  Almost everywhere I
> > > >  have read points out that the
> > > >  FBI seeks a master key, and that this is more than than about one
> > > >  phone.
> > > >  Unless you are just reading fox news that is laughs.
> > > >  Kare
> > > > 
> > > > 
> > > >  On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
> > > > 
> > > > >  ET very well stated.
> > > > > 
> > > > >  The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally

> > > > >  mistaking what Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being
> > > > >  asked to hack in to the specific phone, they probably can’t. 
> > > > >  They
> > > > >  are being asked to create a tool that the government can use 
> > > > >  with
> > > > >  out limitation to circumvent any security on the iPhone. 
> > > > >  That’s

> > > > >  BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse hockey.
> > > > > 
> > > > >  This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to

> > > > >  make an end run right around the 4th amendment.  And you also
> > > > >  correctly state once in place there’s no getting rid of it.
> > > > >  Remember, the patriot act and father land security I mean home
> > > > >  land security were also supposed to be temporary.  Good luck!
> > > > > 
> > > > > >  On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T. 

> > > > > >  wrote:
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the 
> > > > > >  fence
> > > > > >  and I say, once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting 
> > > > > >  him.
> > > > > >  Sure, its a sticky wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at 
> > > > > >  what

> > > > > >  cost?
> > > > > > 
> > > > > >  From E.T.'s Keyboard...

> > > > > >  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> > > > > >  Many believe that we have been visited
> > > > > >  in the past. What if it were true?
> > > > 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[E.T.]

Karen,
   A good observation coming from one who is inside such a business. 
But its my observation that every individual who sees or hears the same 
event, even standing side by side, will have a different interpretation 
of that event.  The media is not immune to this. But people who rely on 
more than one source will see a more complete picture though unlikely a 
fully complete one.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 12:06 PM, Karen Lewellen wrote:

I have been a media professional for many years.  These days, someone
might read a twitter post or a Facebook one and decide it is news, but i
assure you that  the  major American media is not in the pocket of the
government. Far too many  of them are getting the story right to base an
entire industry on one  station  using one newsroom located  in one city.
I am not surprised someone corrected the issue on air in California though.
Kare 
No, they are traditional news sources.  The KGO radio story ran for
more than one day with that misinformation.  It was one of the talk
show hosts themselves that set the news department straight on the
air.  WBZ I have no idea what their problem is, it’s a major CBS
station.  I think it just convinces me more that the media is in the
pocket of the government.  It’s the gun deal all over again, spread as
much misinformation and then act like it was an honest mistake.



On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Karen Lewellen
 wrote:

really?
Would love to know what reporter with those outlets did not do their
homework.
A swift review of google news sources clears up that mystery..frankly
so does reading Tim's statement.
were those blogs?
Might explain the error.


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


CBS, WBZ out of Boston this morning was reporting that Apple was
being asked to break in to the individual phone only, not develop a
tool to access all phones which is in fact the case.

Also, KGO out of San Francisco was reporting the same thing.  So no
but I’m glad to see that the sources you mention are discussing the
topic correctly.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Karen Lewellen
 wrote:

I am wondering what media you are following.
articles in the La times, the Washington post, bloomberg, even usa
today, are linking directly  to Mr. Cook's statement.  Further many
are sharing how the FBI could be solving this issue, taking note of
other industry companies who are concerned.  Almost everywhere I
have read points out that the
FBI seeks a master key, and that this is more than than about one
phone.
Unless you are just reading fox news that is laughs.
Kare


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


ET very well stated.

The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally
mistaking what Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being
asked to hack in to the specific phone, they probably can’t.  They
are being asked to create a tool that the government can use with
out limitation to circumvent any security on the iPhone.  That’s
BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse hockey.

This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to
make an end run right around the 4th amendment.  And you also
correctly state once in place there’s no getting rid of it.
Remember, the patriot act and father land security I mean home
land security were also supposed to be temporary.  Good luck!


On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T. 
wrote:

Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence
and I say, once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him.
Sure, its a sticky wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what
cost?

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against
being forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have
any comments?



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RE: full keyboard for Mac

[Tony]

I just got the Apple full size keyboard wired for around $50 on Amazon. I also 
have the latest Apple Magic Blutooth keyboard, which does not have a numpad for 
around $100, which by the way is my favorite, but both are great. 
Tony
-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Christina C.
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 3:27 PM
To: 'Jason White' via MacVisionaries
Subject: full keyboard for Mac

Hello,

Can anyone suggest a good keyboard for my Mac with a num pad? Wired or wireless 
is fine, I prefer budget friendly  but I am open to ideas as long as it is easy 
to set up as a blind person and works well with all the voice Over key 
combinations. It also does not have to be apple brand. I actually have trouble 
pairing this apple blue tooth keyboard because I can’t tell if it’s in pairing 
mode or even on. I also hate constantly changing the batteries on this one, for 
some reason the batteries die quickly. I really miss having a num pad and would 
love to get a keyboard with a num pad because it’s much easier for me to type 
numbers quickly and accurately that way.

Thanks,
Christina

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Re: full keyboard for Mac

[John Panarese]

   The Apple USB full-sized keyboard works fine. I have two here I use with my 
Mac Mini and my iMac. I don’t recall the current price, but it’s not terrible.


Take Care

John D. Panarese
Director
Mac for the Blind
Tel, (631) 724-4479
Email, j...@macfortheblind.com
Website, http://www.macfortheblind.com

APPLE CERTIFIED SUPPORT PROFESSIONAL and Trainer

AUTHORIZED APPLE STORE BUSINESS AFFILIATE

MAC and iOS VOICEOVER TRAINING AND SUPPORT



> On Feb 18, 2016, at 3:26 PM, Christina C.  wrote:
> 
> Hello,
> 
> Can anyone suggest a good keyboard for my Mac with a num pad? Wired or 
> wireless is fine, I prefer budget friendly  but I am open to ideas as long as 
> it is easy to set up as a blind person and works well with all the voice Over 
> key combinations. It also does not have to be apple brand. I actually have 
> trouble pairing this apple blue tooth keyboard because I can’t tell if it’s 
> in pairing mode or even on. I also hate constantly changing the batteries on 
> this one, for some reason the batteries die quickly. I really miss having a 
> num pad and would love to get a keyboard with a num pad because it’s much 
> easier for me to type numbers quickly and accurately that way.
> 
> Thanks,
> Christina
> 
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full keyboard for Mac

[Christina C.]

Hello,

Can anyone suggest a good keyboard for my Mac with a num pad? Wired or wireless 
is fine, I prefer budget friendly  but I am open to ideas as long as it is easy 
to set up as a blind person and works well with all the voice Over key 
combinations. It also does not have to be apple brand. I actually have trouble 
pairing this apple blue tooth keyboard because I can’t tell if it’s in pairing 
mode or even on. I also hate constantly changing the batteries on this one, for 
some reason the batteries die quickly. I really miss having a num pad and would 
love to get a keyboard with a num pad because it’s much easier for me to type 
numbers quickly and accurately that way.

Thanks,
Christina

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

I have been a media professional for many years.  These days, someone might 
read a twitter post or a Facebook one and decide it is news, but i 
assure you 
that  the  major American media is not in the pocket of the government. 
Far 
too many  of them are getting the story right to base an entire industry on 
one  station  using one newsroom located  in one city.

I am not surprised someone corrected the issue on air in California though.
Kare 
No, they are traditional news sources.  The KGO radio story ran for more than 
one day with that misinformation.  It was one of the talk show hosts themselves 
that set the news department straight on the air.  WBZ I have no idea what 
their problem is, it’s a major CBS station.  I think it just convinces me more 
that the media is in the pocket of the government.  It’s the gun deal all over 
again, spread as much misinformation and then act like it was an honest mistake.



On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

really?
Would love to know what reporter with those outlets did not do their homework.
A swift review of google news sources clears up that mystery..frankly so does 
reading Tim's statement.
were those blogs?
Might explain the error.


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


CBS, WBZ out of Boston this morning was reporting that Apple was being asked to 
break in to the individual phone only, not develop a tool to access all phones 
which is in fact the case.

Also, KGO out of San Francisco was reporting the same thing.  So no but I’m 
glad to see that the sources you mention are discussing the topic correctly.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

I am wondering what media you are following.
articles in the La times, the Washington post, bloomberg, even usa today, are 
linking directly  to Mr. Cook's statement.  Further many are sharing how the 
FBI could be solving this issue, taking note of other industry companies who 
are concerned.  Almost everywhere I have read points out that the
FBI seeks a master key, and that this is more than than about one phone.
Unless you are just reading fox news that is laughs.
Kare


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


ET very well stated.

The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking what 
Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security on 
the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse 
hockey.

This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end run 
right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in place 
there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father land 
security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  Good 
luck!


On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:

Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I say, 
once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a sticky wicket. 
We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?



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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

Ah sorry, for folks across the pond or in other countries you might not be up 
to speed.

In the US we had a supposed terrorist attack where two people walked in to a 
center and shot up the place in the name of ISIL or dAESH or what ever we’re 
calling the boogie man today.  They supposedly had iPhones and the FBI can’t 
gain access to them and wants access.   The courts have directed Apple to 
develop a tool the will circumvent their cryptography.  This tool would be 
available of course outside the country as well so people that aren’t US 
citizens should still care.  Google Apple verses the FBI if you’d like to learn 
more.

Thanks
Scott

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:56 PM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> Whats this all about?
> I haven’t read anything.
> But it would be great to hear what others might think.
> /A
>> On 18 Feb 2016, at 18:36, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Very important comment, that’s pretty funny.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
>>> 
>>> I have a very important comment:
>>> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind 
>>> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right 
>>> about this.
>>> 
 On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
 
 Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being 
 forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Whats this all about?
I haven’t read anything.
But it would be great to hear what others might think.
/A
> On 18 Feb 2016, at 18:36, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Very important comment, that’s pretty funny.
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
>> 
>> I have a very important comment:
>> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind 
>> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right 
>> about this.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>> 
>>> -- 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

No, they are traditional news sources.  The KGO radio story ran for more than 
one day with that misinformation.  It was one of the talk show hosts themselves 
that set the news department straight on the air.  WBZ I have no idea what 
their problem is, it’s a major CBS station.  I think it just convinces me more 
that the media is in the pocket of the government.  It’s the gun deal all over 
again, spread as much misinformation and then act like it was an honest mistake.


> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:51 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> really?
> Would love to know what reporter with those outlets did not do their homework.
> A swift review of google news sources clears up that mystery..frankly so does 
> reading Tim's statement.
> were those blogs?
> Might explain the error.
> 
> 
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
> 
>> CBS, WBZ out of Boston this morning was reporting that Apple was being asked 
>> to break in to the individual phone only, not develop a tool to access all 
>> phones which is in fact the case.
>> 
>> Also, KGO out of San Francisco was reporting the same thing.  So no but I’m 
>> glad to see that the sources you mention are discussing the topic correctly.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Karen Lewellen  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> I am wondering what media you are following.
>>> articles in the La times, the Washington post, bloomberg, even usa today, 
>>> are linking directly  to Mr. Cook's statement.  Further many are sharing 
>>> how the FBI could be solving this issue, taking note of other industry 
>>> companies who are concerned.  Almost everywhere I have read points out that 
>>> the
>>> FBI seeks a master key, and that this is more than than about one phone.
>>> Unless you are just reading fox news that is laughs.
>>> Kare
>>> 
>>> 
>>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> 
 ET very well stated.
 
 The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking 
 what Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to 
 the specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a 
 tool that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any 
 security on the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short 
 form for horse hockey.
 
 This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an 
 end run right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once 
 in place there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and 
 father land security I mean home land security were also supposed to be 
 temporary.  Good luck!
 
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
> Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I 
> say, once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a 
> sticky wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being 
>> forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>> 
> 
> --
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

really?
Would love to know what reporter with those outlets did not do 
their homework.
A swift review of google news sources clears up that mystery..frankly so 
does reading Tim's statement.

were those blogs?
Might explain the error.


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


CBS, WBZ out of Boston this morning was reporting that Apple was being asked to 
break in to the individual phone only, not develop a tool to access all phones 
which is in fact the case.

Also, KGO out of San Francisco was reporting the same thing.  So no but I’m 
glad to see that the sources you mention are discussing the topic correctly.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

I am wondering what media you are following.
articles in the La times, the Washington post, bloomberg, even usa today, are 
linking directly  to Mr. Cook's statement.  Further many are sharing how the 
FBI could be solving this issue, taking note of other industry companies who 
are concerned.  Almost everywhere I have read points out that the
FBI seeks a master key, and that this is more than than about one phone.
Unless you are just reading fox news that is laughs.
Kare


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


ET very well stated.

The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking what 
Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security on 
the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse 
hockey.

This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end run 
right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in place 
there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father land 
security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  Good 
luck!


On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:

 Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I say, 
once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a sticky wicket. 
We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?



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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

great question.
The understanding i have read is that the fingerprint reader was in use.
There was a regular backup of data from the phone up till the individual 
discontinued that backup shortly before the shootings.  This is why the 
fingerprint door may be best, it is likely most recent.
I do wonder about the specific finger however.  my guess is that they 
could try all ten before risking the phone data.



On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Michael Malver wrote:


Maybe he chose not to activate the fingerprint reader. Even if he did, how 
would you know which finger he chose? If you didn't get the fingers absolutely 
right the first time, you could destroy the data on the phone.

Michael


On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even a 
finger and just use that?

Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such as 
the fingerprints of  those involved.
A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
compromised in this fashion.
After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by others. 
Just my take,
Karen



On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

Actually it might depend on the person using both things.  If you have 
broken  the law and our phone is being investigated as a part of the crime 
it will  really depend on the search warrant Obtained.

A rather gray legal area these days.
Still in the Apple FBI case many security professionals say the 
fingerprint door is likely the best bet.



On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Michael Malver wrote:


If someone e used my fingerprints to open my phone, and then use data against 
me with that be a form of self incrimination?


On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such as 
the fingerprints of  those involved.
A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
compromised in this fashion.
After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by others. 
Just my take,
Karen



On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

Many in the American press are asking that very question, especially since 
they   do have those fingerprints.
No explanation as of yet.   additionally,  Apple is getting lots of 
company  on the legal front to fight the request.

Kare


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even a 
finger and just use that?

Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such as 
the fingerprints of  those involved.
A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
compromised in this fashion.
After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by others. 
Just my take,
Karen


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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RE: Frustrated with Apple Pay

[M. Taylor]

Two more things to consider when using Apple Pay, Sarai,

1.
The terminal transmitter is not necessarily directly adjacent to the terminal's 
display.  When I first began using Apple Pay, I would virtually lay the phone 
against the display of the terminal, while this usually worked, it did not 
always work.  I discovered, over time, that, in some cases, the actual 
transmitter can be as far as 4 inches above the display.

2.
If you have your phone in a case, make certain that the case is not impeding 
the signal.  I'm almost certain this is not the problem but, nevertheless, it 
is something to consider.  For the record, I use a folio style leather case, 
made by Case Mate, and have never encountered a problem based on the case.  
Just wanted to offer this for your consideration.

Mark  

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Sarai Bucciarelli
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 5:51 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay

Hi:
I did. Says default card.
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> Did you verify that the credit card was fully authorized? Go back into your 
> wallet and read the details of the offending card. 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 20:25, Sarai Bucciarelli  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi guys:
>> I have a new iphone 6s. I bought it for Apple pay. I cannot get it to work! 
>> I went to Sprouts, and Petco, who have apple pay. I held my phone up to the 
>> reader. Phone vibrated, and brought up my credit card. I touched the finger 
>> id. nothing happened! I cannot figure it out!
>> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
>> 
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Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli

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RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

First, is it your suggestion that there is a general group called blind 
people all the same and somehow separate from the rest of humanity?
I am unsure why it needs to be more important but I would never reduce your 
individual experience of sight loss to my own.
second, Apple has been doing what can be done legally with the individual 
device.  for whatever reason the FBI is not using other things from those 
involved like their fingerprints, but the master key according to the FBI 
is the only way.
If you want greater details, visit google news, you will find articles 
abounding.



On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Michael Malver wrote:


Two questions:
1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
That supposition is non-sensical to me.

2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some sort 
of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, who 
could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one might 
now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A couple 
bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve incryption and 
who would not misuse it.
I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

   Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
especially for blind users.

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:

I have a very important comment:
This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind people 
interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right about this.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

CBS, WBZ out of Boston this morning was reporting that Apple was being asked to 
break in to the individual phone only, not develop a tool to access all phones 
which is in fact the case.

Also, KGO out of San Francisco was reporting the same thing.  So no but I’m 
glad to see that the sources you mention are discussing the topic correctly.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:17 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> I am wondering what media you are following.
> articles in the La times, the Washington post, bloomberg, even usa today, are 
> linking directly  to Mr. Cook's statement.  Further many are sharing how the 
> FBI could be solving this issue, taking note of other industry companies who 
> are concerned.  Almost everywhere I have read points out that the
> FBI seeks a master key, and that this is more than than about one phone.
> Unless you are just reading fox news that is laughs.
> Kare
> 
> 
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
> 
>> ET very well stated.
>> 
>> The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking 
>> what Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
>> specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
>> that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security 
>> on the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for 
>> horse hockey.
>> 
>> This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end 
>> run right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in 
>> place there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father 
>> land security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  
>> Good luck!
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>>  Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I 
>>> say, once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a 
>>> sticky wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
 Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being 
 forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
 
>>> 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[E.T.]

   I may be mistaken but I think I heard this phone is a 5c. Does that 
model support fingerprint ID? Still, if one door is closed, another can 
be legally opened. I fail to see how the missing 18 minutes can be 
sufficient grounds for trashing what is left of our privacy. Where is 
Daniel Webster when we need him the most?


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 11:10 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even a 
finger and just use that?

Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:

Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such as 
the fingerprints of  those involved.
A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
compromised in this fashion.
After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by others. 
Just my take,
Karen


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

You should be able to dust the phone for prints and see which ones are in 
contact with the surface?

Plus you only have 10, you could try at least 8 of them probably with out issue.


Good thought though, this is the type of stuff the investigators think about so 
it’s a good effort to try to think about the problem from their angle.

Great responses Michael, thanks for the thought provokers.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:15 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> Maybe he chose not to activate the fingerprint reader. Even if he did, how 
> would you know which finger he chose? If you didn't get the fingers 
> absolutely right the first time, you could destroy the data on the phone.
> 
> Michael
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
>> fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
>> about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even 
>> a finger and just use that?
>> 
>> Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
>>> as the fingerprints of  those involved.
>>> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise 
>>> to develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their 
>>> privacy compromised in this fashion.
>>> After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, 
>>> not only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by 
>>> others. Just my take,
>>> Karen
>>> 
>>> 
 On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
 
 Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being 
 forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

I am wondering what media you are following.
articles in the La times, the Washington post, bloomberg, even usa today, 
are linking directly  to Mr. Cook's statement.  Further many are sharing 
how the FBI could be solving this issue, taking note of other industry 
companies who are concerned.  Almost everywhere I have read points out that the
 FBI seeks a master key, and that this is more than than about 
one phone.

Unless you are just reading fox news that is laughs.
Kare


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


ET very well stated.

The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking what 
Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security on 
the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse 
hockey.

This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end run 
right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in place 
there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father land 
security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  Good 
luck!


On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:

  Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I say, 
once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a sticky wicket. 
We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?

From E.T.'s Keyboard...
  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?



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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Michael Malver]

Maybe he chose not to activate the fingerprint reader. Even if he did, how 
would you know which finger he chose? If you didn't get the fingers absolutely 
right the first time, you could destroy the data on the phone.

Michael

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:10 PM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
> fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
> about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even a 
> finger and just use that?
> 
> Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
>> 
>> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
>> as the fingerprints of  those involved.
>> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
>> develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
>> compromised in this fashion.
>> After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
>> only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by 
>> others. Just my take,
>> Karen
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>> 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

No, the courts have said that the police can compel you to place your finger on 
the censor.

But in this case I don’t think it matters, the phone owner is dead.  The people 
in question here are the two supposed terrorists from Pasadena.  So since they 
are dead I think you could do it.

Great line of thinking though.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:14 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> If someone e used my fingerprints to open my phone, and then use data against 
> me with that be a form of self incrimination? 
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
>> 
>> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
>> as the fingerprints of  those involved.
>> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
>> develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
>> compromised in this fashion.
>> After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
>> only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by 
>> others. Just my take,
>> Karen
>> 
>> 
>>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>> 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Michael Malver]

If someone e used my fingerprints to open my phone, and then use data against 
me with that be a form of self incrimination? 

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
> as the fingerprints of  those involved.
> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
> develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
> compromised in this fashion.
> After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
> only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by 
> others. Just my take,
> Karen
> 
> 
>> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
>> 
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>> 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

Karen, you raise a really really good question.  Why don’t they just use the 
fingerprint of the phone owner.  He’s dead anyway so you don’t have to worry 
about his specific rights, he’s dead.:)  Couldn’t they lift a print or even a 
finger and just use that?

Now I really smell a rat since they had the body and had a means in.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:08 PM, Karen Lewellen  wrote:
> 
> Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
> as the fingerprints of  those involved.
> A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise to 
> develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their privacy 
> compromised in this fashion.
> After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, not 
> only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by 
> others. Just my take,
> Karen
> 
> 
> On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:
> 
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>> 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Karen Lewellen]

Not only is Apple 100% correct here, the FBI is not using other doors, such 
as the fingerprints of  those involved.
A master key like the one the FBI desires seeing created is simply unwise 
to develop.  Hackers have anoth leeway, and no one should have  their 
privacy compromised in this fashion.
After  all consider how often the government has themselves been hacked, 
not only could this key be abused by the government, it could be stolen by 
others. Just my take,

Karen


On Thu, 18 Feb 2016, Scott Granados wrote:


Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: To The List About The Recent Spam

[Scott Granados]

How about unmentionables.

lol

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 2:00 PM, Gary  wrote:
> 
> YesScott, I completely and totally agree, but I must say … Can you please say 
> under pants and not the other. lol
> Thank you very much.
> Gary
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:25 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
>> I do have to say, I didn’t even  notice it.  It always amazes me how quickly 
>> people can et their panties in a bunch.  Not saying that happened this time 
>> but a little f bomb here and there really isn’t the end of the world.  If 
>> that message offended anyone I would hate to see how they would react to the 
>> average work place let alone my work place.  The language is extremely salty 
>> and really is in the professional world in general.  As in all things, time 
>> and a place and all that but boy it seems especially on blindness groups our 
>> filters are set a little fine.
>> 
>> Just my take, I’m likely wrong and to be clear I am not in any questioning 
>> the moderation, his list his rules like em or lump em, I’m just questioning 
>> in general our sensitivity to language.  It’s pretty arbitrary.
>> 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 9:44 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>>> 
>>> here is an alternative: if you are going to cuss (or are tempted to), start 
>>> quoting william shakespear. He had some nice insults that were artistically 
>>> done and they don't lead to the use of profanity. :)
>>> 
>>> -eric
>>> 
>>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 7:06 PM, M. Taylor wrote:
>>> 
 Terje,
 
 Your post to this list, using profanity, is unacceptable.  Do not, under 
 any circumstances, use profane language when posting to this group.
 
 Thank you,
 
 Mark
 
 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
 [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Terje Strømberg
 Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:26 PM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Cc: Terje Strømberg
 Subject: Re: To The List About The Recent Spam
 
 Yeah, very strange. I am fascinated about how the fuck can this be 
 possible? Turned off my voice over. Some kind of script maybe. To me it is 
 surprising and interesting how it can be done, but most of all i don’t 
 want to excperience it again. Very bad.
 
 Take care
 
 17. feb. 2016 kl. 22:04 skrev Marie Lyons :
 
 I can’t seem to correct it. I went in and unchecked checkboxes but I still 
 have 3 voices. I guess what I’m needing is step by step instruction. I 
 have a call in to accessibility support for follow-up on the spam issue.. 
 Perhaps he can help me solve this. This didn’t seem to be a place to save 
 changes.
 
 Marie
> On Feb 17, 2016, at 4:12 AM, Andrew Lamanche  wrote:
> 
> In VoiceOver utility, under speech category, set all your voices to Alex 
> and Alex to be your default voice.  It seems as if somehow the 
> announcements are made by a different voice rather than default.
> 
> hope this helps.
> 
> Andrew
>> On 16 Feb 2016, at 23:10, Marie Lyons  wrote:
>> 
>> V/O F8 doesn’t do anything on my computer. Well since then I wound up 
>> with 3 different voices. Alex reads the message but Victoria and Fred 
>> seem to make the announcements.  I don’t like this.  I have no idea why 
>> I can’t fix it.
>> 
>> Marie Lyons
>>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:18 PM, CJ Daniel  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Marie,
>>> 
>>> Press VO-F8 to launch the VO Utility.  VO-Shift-DownArrow on the 
>>> Category table.  Arrow to the Speech option.  VO-Shift-UpArrow to stop 
>>> interacting & move right to the voice options.  Press VO-SpaceBar to 
>>> select it. Down Arrow to the Configure option.  Pick any other voice 
>>> than Alex, Bruce, or Fred.  Wait for it to download & then select it.  
>>> That’ll do it.
>>> 
>>> You see there’s an ass on the list, who has figured out a string of 
>>> text that, when inserted into the subject line of an email, causes Alex 
>>> to shut down.  It’s real cute.  I hope he reaps what he’s sown.  
>>> 
>>> Hope this helps,
>>> 
>>> CJ
>>> 
>>> 
 On Feb 15, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Marie Lyons  wrote:
 
 My v/o keeps shutting down.  What can I do to fix it?
 
 Marie Lyons. I had called disability support and they couldn’t 
 figure it out.  Help greatly appreciated
 
 Marie Lyons
> On Feb 14, 2016, at 10:55 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
> 
> Hello Everyone,
> 
> I became aware of the offensive emails and the deliberate string 
> to shut down the Alex screen reader this morning.
> 
> At that time, I looked at the email 

Re: To The List About The Recent Spam

[Gary]

YesScott, I completely and totally agree, but I must say … Can you please say 
under pants and not the other. lol
Thank you very much.
Gary
On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:25 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

> I do have to say, I didn’t even  notice it.  It always amazes me how quickly 
> people can et their panties in a bunch.  Not saying that happened this time 
> but a little f bomb here and there really isn’t the end of the world.  If 
> that message offended anyone I would hate to see how they would react to the 
> average work place let alone my work place.  The language is extremely salty 
> and really is in the professional world in general.  As in all things, time 
> and a place and all that but boy it seems especially on blindness groups our 
> filters are set a little fine.
> 
> Just my take, I’m likely wrong and to be clear I am not in any questioning 
> the moderation, his list his rules like em or lump em, I’m just questioning 
> in general our sensitivity to language.  It’s pretty arbitrary.
> 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 9:44 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
>> 
>> here is an alternative: if you are going to cuss (or are tempted to), start 
>> quoting william shakespear. He had some nice insults that were artistically 
>> done and they don't lead to the use of profanity. :)
>> 
>> -eric
>> 
>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 7:06 PM, M. Taylor wrote:
>> 
>>> Terje,
>>> 
>>> Your post to this list, using profanity, is unacceptable.  Do not, under 
>>> any circumstances, use profane language when posting to this group.
>>> 
>>> Thank you,
>>> 
>>> Mark
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Terje Strømberg
>>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:26 PM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Cc: Terje Strømberg
>>> Subject: Re: To The List About The Recent Spam
>>> 
>>> Yeah, very strange. I am fascinated about how the fuck can this be 
>>> possible? Turned off my voice over. Some kind of script maybe. To me it is 
>>> surprising and interesting how it can be done, but most of all i don’t want 
>>> to excperience it again. Very bad.
>>> 
>>> Take care
>>> 
>>> 17. feb. 2016 kl. 22:04 skrev Marie Lyons :
>>> 
>>> I can’t seem to correct it. I went in and unchecked checkboxes but I still 
>>> have 3 voices. I guess what I’m needing is step by step instruction. I have 
>>> a call in to accessibility support for follow-up on the spam issue.. 
>>> Perhaps he can help me solve this. This didn’t seem to be a place to save 
>>> changes.
>>> 
>>> Marie
 On Feb 17, 2016, at 4:12 AM, Andrew Lamanche  wrote:
 
 In VoiceOver utility, under speech category, set all your voices to Alex 
 and Alex to be your default voice.  It seems as if somehow the 
 announcements are made by a different voice rather than default.
 
 hope this helps.
 
 Andrew
> On 16 Feb 2016, at 23:10, Marie Lyons  wrote:
> 
> V/O F8 doesn’t do anything on my computer. Well since then I wound up 
> with 3 different voices. Alex reads the message but Victoria and Fred 
> seem to make the announcements.  I don’t like this.  I have no idea why I 
> can’t fix it.
> 
> Marie Lyons
>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:18 PM, CJ Daniel  wrote:
>> 
>> Marie,
>> 
>> Press VO-F8 to launch the VO Utility.  VO-Shift-DownArrow on the 
>> Category table.  Arrow to the Speech option.  VO-Shift-UpArrow to stop 
>> interacting & move right to the voice options.  Press VO-SpaceBar to 
>> select it. Down Arrow to the Configure option.  Pick any other voice 
>> than Alex, Bruce, or Fred.  Wait for it to download & then select it.  
>> That’ll do it.
>> 
>> You see there’s an ass on the list, who has figured out a string of text 
>> that, when inserted into the subject line of an email, causes Alex to 
>> shut down.  It’s real cute.  I hope he reaps what he’s sown.  
>> 
>> Hope this helps,
>> 
>> CJ
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Marie Lyons  wrote:
>>> 
>>> My v/o keeps shutting down.  What can I do to fix it?
>>> 
>>> Marie Lyons. I had called disability support and they couldn’t 
>>> figure it out.  Help greatly appreciated
>>> 
>>> Marie Lyons
 On Feb 14, 2016, at 10:55 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
 
 Hello Everyone,
 
 I became aware of the offensive emails and the deliberate string 
 to shut down the Alex screen reader this morning.
 
 At that time, I looked at the email address of the sender and 
 recognized it as one that I had just banned, last night, from the 
 V iPhone list, for posting offensive language.
 
 For whatever reason, when I attempted to locate 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[E.T.]

   If Apple loses, we all lose. And how do we know what Big Brother 
really is snooping into now? But I surmise that if the government is 
attempting to force Apple into creating a tool, might that suggest we 
still have some measure of privacy? Its a nice thought.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 10:38 AM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse wrote:

Scot, but now imagine that apple looses… just for the sake of the
discussion… what will be next, our cars? the sat nav? when will it
stop?

On 2/18/16, Scott Granados  wrote:

So the EFF is with apple I believe, Google and Facebook, it’s just the media
who the government controls and the FBI who want this.

Just to add one small correction though, the pin isn’t the key it’s self.
So while you’re right about the number of combinations of 4 digits the
actual number of combinations is probably more like 2 to the 2048th power
combinations.  The pin is but a seed / pass phrase component of the key
pair.

Since it seems most people are on the side of Apple we should all write
Apple in support and write our congress persons letting them know we don’t
support this intrusion.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse 
wrote:

so here is the thing, from what i understand and iPhones are not my
favorite subject, but ill try my best.
When you lock your iPhone the key too encrypt it all is on your phone,
apple don't have it anymore, so not even they can unlock the iPhone,
not even if they wanted, if you use a lock code on say 4 digits, there
is 1 different combinations, and it gets worse seen form Fbis
point of view, because after i believe it is 10 times wrong passcode,
the phone erases it self.
I personally like this feature, not that i have anything interesting
on my phone, but i like the fact that my data is actually secure,
problem is if they find a way to force apple into making something
that works, even if it is just for one iPhone, guess  what the next
time the shit hits the fan there will be precedence for having apple
roll their magic again.
And that might be the dangerous part. It seems that google is with
apple on this one at least they sites with them, but have anyone heard
any Ms comments?

On 2/18/16, E.T.  wrote:

Michael,
I urge you to do your own moderating by using that delete key on
messages that bother you. I had to do that very task hundreds of times
just this week. And I expect that task is far from over. (smiles)

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:52 AM, Michael Malver wrote:

Two questions:
1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any
other? That supposition is non-sensical to me.

2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design
some
sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to
Apple, who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data,
much as one might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a
laptop?
Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the
operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their
task?
For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A
couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve
incryption and who would not misuse it.
I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
[mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable
search

 Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue
especially for blind users.

  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:

I have a very important comment:
This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how
blind
people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am
right
about this.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados 
wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being
forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Visionaries list.

If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list,
or
if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
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The archives for this list can be 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Robin]

It's NOT just Republicans, it's Democrats AsWell & Other Politicians
At 09:53 AM 2/18/2016, you wrote:
   The Patriot Act was exactly what came to 
mind. This is what scares me about the Republicans. I shall say no more.


   Just keep those grubby little fingers out of 
my private life which is hardly private any more.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:40 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

ET very well stated.

The thing that amazes me is how the Media in 
the US is totally mistaking what Apple has been 
asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack 
in to the specific phone, they probably 
can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
that the government can use with out limitation 
to circumvent any security on the 
iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily 
offended is short form for horse hockey.


This is just another attempt like clipper was 
in the mid 90s to make an end run right around 
the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly 
state once in place there’s no getting rid of 
it.  Remember, the patriot act and father land 
security I mean home land security were also 
supposed to be temporary.  Good luck!



On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:

   Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from 
both sides of the fence and I say, once Big 
Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. 
Sure, its a sticky wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?


 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
Wonder if anyone else is following Tim 
Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?


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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

You don’t have to sell me about the over reach of Government.  I’ve been a 
Libertarian since before it was cool.:)

(ok it still probably isn’t but that’s besides the point)

You’re absolutely right though.  I have worked for telephone companies and 
global carriers for years now and I’ll tell you that all the stuff you 
mentioned is already done  They do listen to every call with complex systems 
that preprocess conversations and sort them in to interest / prioritized piles. 
 Your phone tracks your position.  The way you deal with this is understand 
what is being done to you, restrict as much as you can and deal with the 
political system and your representatives.

That’s about all you can do.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:38 PM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse  wrote:
> 
> Scot, but now imagine that apple looses… just for the sake of the
> discussion… what will be next, our cars? the sat nav? when will it
> stop?
> 
> On 2/18/16, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> So the EFF is with apple I believe, Google and Facebook, it’s just the media
>> who the government controls and the FBI who want this.
>> 
>> Just to add one small correction though, the pin isn’t the key it’s self.
>> So while you’re right about the number of combinations of 4 digits the
>> actual number of combinations is probably more like 2 to the 2048th power
>> combinations.  The pin is but a seed / pass phrase component of the key
>> pair.
>> 
>> Since it seems most people are on the side of Apple we should all write
>> Apple in support and write our congress persons letting them know we don’t
>> support this intrusion.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse 
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> so here is the thing, from what i understand and iPhones are not my
>>> favorite subject, but ill try my best.
>>> When you lock your iPhone the key too encrypt it all is on your phone,
>>> apple don't have it anymore, so not even they can unlock the iPhone,
>>> not even if they wanted, if you use a lock code on say 4 digits, there
>>> is 1 different combinations, and it gets worse seen form Fbis
>>> point of view, because after i believe it is 10 times wrong passcode,
>>> the phone erases it self.
>>> I personally like this feature, not that i have anything interesting
>>> on my phone, but i like the fact that my data is actually secure,
>>> problem is if they find a way to force apple into making something
>>> that works, even if it is just for one iPhone, guess  what the next
>>> time the shit hits the fan there will be precedence for having apple
>>> roll their magic again.
>>> And that might be the dangerous part. It seems that google is with
>>> apple on this one at least they sites with them, but have anyone heard
>>> any Ms comments?
>>> 
>>> On 2/18/16, E.T.  wrote:
 Michael,
   I urge you to do your own moderating by using that delete key on
 messages that bother you. I had to do that very task hundreds of times
 just this week. And I expect that task is far from over. (smiles)
 
 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 Many believe that we have been visited
 in the past. What if it were true?
 
 On 2/18/2016 9:52 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
> Two questions:
> 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any
> other? That supposition is non-sensical to me.
> 
> 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design
> some
> sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to
> Apple, who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data,
> much as one might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a
> laptop?
> Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the
> operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their
> task?
> For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A
> couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve
> incryption and who would not misuse it.
> I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable
> search
> 
>Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue
> especially for blind users.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
>> I have a very important comment:
>> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how
>> blind
>> people 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Robin]

I'm NOT 1 to SupportApple, but I'm with TimCook 
as it pertains to Privacy on its Apple HardWare/SoftWare Devices

At 09:27 AM 2/18/2016, you wrote:
Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s 
position against being forced to cripple the 
security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?


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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Sandi Jazmin Kruse]

Scot, but now imagine that apple looses… just for the sake of the
discussion… what will be next, our cars? the sat nav? when will it
stop?

On 2/18/16, Scott Granados  wrote:
> So the EFF is with apple I believe, Google and Facebook, it’s just the media
> who the government controls and the FBI who want this.
>
> Just to add one small correction though, the pin isn’t the key it’s self.
> So while you’re right about the number of combinations of 4 digits the
> actual number of combinations is probably more like 2 to the 2048th power
> combinations.  The pin is but a seed / pass phrase component of the key
> pair.
>
> Since it seems most people are on the side of Apple we should all write
> Apple in support and write our congress persons letting them know we don’t
> support this intrusion.
>
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse 
>> wrote:
>>
>> so here is the thing, from what i understand and iPhones are not my
>> favorite subject, but ill try my best.
>> When you lock your iPhone the key too encrypt it all is on your phone,
>> apple don't have it anymore, so not even they can unlock the iPhone,
>> not even if they wanted, if you use a lock code on say 4 digits, there
>> is 1 different combinations, and it gets worse seen form Fbis
>> point of view, because after i believe it is 10 times wrong passcode,
>> the phone erases it self.
>> I personally like this feature, not that i have anything interesting
>> on my phone, but i like the fact that my data is actually secure,
>> problem is if they find a way to force apple into making something
>> that works, even if it is just for one iPhone, guess  what the next
>> time the shit hits the fan there will be precedence for having apple
>> roll their magic again.
>> And that might be the dangerous part. It seems that google is with
>> apple on this one at least they sites with them, but have anyone heard
>> any Ms comments?
>>
>> On 2/18/16, E.T.  wrote:
>>> Michael,
>>>I urge you to do your own moderating by using that delete key on
>>> messages that bother you. I had to do that very task hundreds of times
>>> just this week. And I expect that task is far from over. (smiles)
>>>
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>>
>>> On 2/18/2016 9:52 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
 Two questions:
 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any
 other? That supposition is non-sensical to me.

 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design
 some
 sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to
 Apple, who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data,
 much as one might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a
 laptop?
 Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the
 operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their
 task?
 For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A
 couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve
 incryption and who would not misuse it.
 I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.


 -Original Message-
 From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
 Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
 To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
 Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable
 search

 Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue
 especially for blind users.

  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
 Many believe that we have been visited
 in the past. What if it were true?

 On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
> I have a very important comment:
> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how
> blind
> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am
> right
> about this.
>
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados 
>> wrote:
>>
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being
>> forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
>> Visionaries list.
>>
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list,
>> or
>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is
>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>
>> The archives for this list 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

So the EFF is with apple I believe, Google and Facebook, it’s just the media 
who the government controls and the FBI who want this.

Just to add one small correction though, the pin isn’t the key it’s self.  So 
while you’re right about the number of combinations of 4 digits the actual 
number of combinations is probably more like 2 to the 2048th power 
combinations.  The pin is but a seed / pass phrase component of the key pair.

Since it seems most people are on the side of Apple we should all write Apple 
in support and write our congress persons letting them know we don’t support 
this intrusion.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:32 PM, Sandi Jazmin Kruse  wrote:
> 
> so here is the thing, from what i understand and iPhones are not my
> favorite subject, but ill try my best.
> When you lock your iPhone the key too encrypt it all is on your phone,
> apple don't have it anymore, so not even they can unlock the iPhone,
> not even if they wanted, if you use a lock code on say 4 digits, there
> is 1 different combinations, and it gets worse seen form Fbis
> point of view, because after i believe it is 10 times wrong passcode,
> the phone erases it self.
> I personally like this feature, not that i have anything interesting
> on my phone, but i like the fact that my data is actually secure,
> problem is if they find a way to force apple into making something
> that works, even if it is just for one iPhone, guess  what the next
> time the shit hits the fan there will be precedence for having apple
> roll their magic again.
> And that might be the dangerous part. It seems that google is with
> apple on this one at least they sites with them, but have anyone heard
> any Ms comments?
> 
> On 2/18/16, E.T.  wrote:
>> Michael,
>>I urge you to do your own moderating by using that delete key on
>> messages that bother you. I had to do that very task hundreds of times
>> just this week. And I expect that task is far from over. (smiles)
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 2/18/2016 9:52 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
>>> Two questions:
>>> 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any
>>> other? That supposition is non-sensical to me.
>>> 
>>> 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some
>>> sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to
>>> Apple, who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data,
>>> much as one might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a
>>> laptop?
>>> Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the
>>> operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
>>> For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A
>>> couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve
>>> incryption and who would not misuse it.
>>> I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -Original Message-
>>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
>>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
>>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>>> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search
>>> 
>>> Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue
>>> especially for blind users.
>>> 
>>>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
 I have a very important comment:
 This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind
 people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right
 about this.
 
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados 
> wrote:
> 
> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being
> forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
> 
> --
> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
> Visionaries list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is
> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
> ---
> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
> an email to 

RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Michael Malver]

Awesome, thanks.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 12:27 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

Michael, again very astute observations.

Apple can not crack their own cryptography from what I understand.  It uses 
some very strong algorithms that are based on key pairs.  When you put in your 
fingerprint and pin you seed a process that then encrypts your phone and it 
would take more computing power than exists on the planet more time than the 
universe has existed to crack that cypher with out the keys.  This is always a 
moving target of course as power improves but it is very difficult to crack 
cyphers this complex.  We could be talking about 2048 or more bit keys to give 
you an idea.
What I find interesting though is the second half of your response 
where you thought most of the cyphers had been cracked.  I thought so to and 
I’m in the business.  While I know some of the modern cyphers are very strong I 
had assumed our friends in the NSA had a solution to this.  My guess is they do 
but it’s not available to the government as a whole because it’s to classified. 
 Rumor has it that the NSA is working with quantum computing among other 
technologies to massively improve their abilities but much like the British in 
world war II and their enigma machine they had to allow London to be bombed 
even though they knew the attack was coming as to not let it be known they had 
cracked the german codes.  I suspect something similar is at work here.  They 
in certain circles have mechanisms but they don’t want to tip their hand 
publicly.   I also suspect it takes highly exotic systems that just aren’t 
widely available.  That being said in this case I don’t believe there is any 
non classified means to crack the cryptography that Apple and Google and others 
use.

How’s that?

Thank you
Scott

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> Maybe I’m confused.
> I thought the issue what that law enforcement couldn't hack the password to 
> this guy's phone, thus they can't get to the data.
> Is Apple's incryption truly uncrackable, that is, if Apple could remove the 
> data storage from the unit, can they not decrypt their own encryption? I 
> guess I just assumed most encryption schemes used by operating systems had 
> already been hacked by someone.  
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:57 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable 
> search
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> I agree with you on the first I think this topic is equally important 
> to any citizens or anyone who does business or transacts with in the 
> US.  So I agree I think it’s important for blind users but in the same 
> way it’s important for left handed users or PC users.:)
> 
> Secondly, you ask a good question but think it through with me.  Once you 
> introduce a mechanism to break through security you make an opening available 
> to be exploited.  So let’s say Apple develops some magical way to crack their 
> cyphers, that method now exists for the bad guys.  Once it exists you can’t 
> put it back in the box.  So what Apple doesn’t want to do is compromise 
> everyones security just to examine the contents of a single phone.
> 
> Does that make sense I hope I explained that well.
> 
> Good question btw.
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
>> 
>> Two questions:
>> 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
>> That supposition is non-sensical to me.
>> 
>> 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some 
>> sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, 
>> who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one 
>> might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
>> Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
>> operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
>> For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A 
>> couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve 
>> incryption and who would not misuse it.
>> I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable 
>> search
>> 
>>   Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Sandi Jazmin Kruse]

so here is the thing, from what i understand and iPhones are not my
favorite subject, but ill try my best.
When you lock your iPhone the key too encrypt it all is on your phone,
apple don't have it anymore, so not even they can unlock the iPhone,
not even if they wanted, if you use a lock code on say 4 digits, there
is 1 different combinations, and it gets worse seen form Fbis
point of view, because after i believe it is 10 times wrong passcode,
the phone erases it self.
I personally like this feature, not that i have anything interesting
on my phone, but i like the fact that my data is actually secure,
problem is if they find a way to force apple into making something
that works, even if it is just for one iPhone, guess  what the next
time the shit hits the fan there will be precedence for having apple
roll their magic again.
And that might be the dangerous part. It seems that google is with
apple on this one at least they sites with them, but have anyone heard
any Ms comments?

On 2/18/16, E.T.  wrote:
> Michael,
> I urge you to do your own moderating by using that delete key on
> messages that bother you. I had to do that very task hundreds of times
> just this week. And I expect that task is far from over. (smiles)
>
>  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
> ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
>
> On 2/18/2016 9:52 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
>> Two questions:
>> 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any
>> other? That supposition is non-sensical to me.
>>
>> 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some
>> sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to
>> Apple, who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data,
>> much as one might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a
>> laptop?
>> Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the
>> operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
>> For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A
>> couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve
>> incryption and who would not misuse it.
>> I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.
>>
>>
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search
>>
>>  Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue
>> especially for blind users.
>>
>>   From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>
>> On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
>>> I have a very important comment:
>>> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind
>>> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right
>>> about this.
>>>
 On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados 
 wrote:

 Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being
 forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

 --
 The following information is important for all members of the Mac
 Visionaries list.

 If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
 if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
 owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

 Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is
 Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

 The archives for this list can be searched at:
 http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
 ---
 You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google
 Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
 To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send
 an email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
 To post to this group, send email to macvisionaries@googlegroups.com.
 Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
 For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>>>
>>
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac
>> Visionaries list.
>>
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or
>> if you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the
>> owners or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

Michael, again very astute observations.

Apple can not crack their own cryptography from what I understand.  It uses 
some very strong algorithms that are based on key pairs.  When you put in your 
fingerprint and pin you seed a process that then encrypts your phone and it 
would take more computing power than exists on the planet more time than the 
universe has existed to crack that cypher with out the keys.  This is always a 
moving target of course as power improves but it is very difficult to crack 
cyphers this complex.  We could be talking about 2048 or more bit keys to give 
you an idea.
What I find interesting though is the second half of your response 
where you thought most of the cyphers had been cracked.  I thought so to and 
I’m in the business.  While I know some of the modern cyphers are very strong I 
had assumed our friends in the NSA had a solution to this.  My guess is they do 
but it’s not available to the government as a whole because it’s to classified. 
 Rumor has it that the NSA is working with quantum computing among other 
technologies to massively improve their abilities but much like the British in 
world war II and their enigma machine they had to allow London to be bombed 
even though they knew the attack was coming as to not let it be known they had 
cracked the german codes.  I suspect something similar is at work here.  They 
in certain circles have mechanisms but they don’t want to tip their hand 
publicly.   I also suspect it takes highly exotic systems that just aren’t 
widely available.  That being said in this case I don’t believe there is any 
non classified means to crack the cryptography that Apple and Google and others 
use.

How’s that?

Thank you
Scott

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 1:02 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> Maybe I’m confused.
> I thought the issue what that law enforcement couldn't hack the password to 
> this guy's phone, thus they can't get to the data.
> Is Apple's incryption truly uncrackable, that is, if Apple could remove the 
> data storage from the unit, can they not decrypt their own encryption? I 
> guess I just assumed most encryption schemes used by operating systems had 
> already been hacked by someone.  
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Scott Granados
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:57 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search
> 
> Hi Michael,
> 
> I agree with you on the first I think this topic is equally important to any 
> citizens or anyone who does business or transacts with in the US.  So I agree 
> I think it’s important for blind users but in the same way it’s important for 
> left handed users or PC users.:)
> 
> Secondly, you ask a good question but think it through with me.  Once you 
> introduce a mechanism to break through security you make an opening available 
> to be exploited.  So let’s say Apple develops some magical way to crack their 
> cyphers, that method now exists for the bad guys.  Once it exists you can’t 
> put it back in the box.  So what Apple doesn’t want to do is compromise 
> everyones security just to examine the contents of a single phone.
> 
> Does that make sense I hope I explained that well.
> 
> Good question btw.
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
>> 
>> Two questions:
>> 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
>> That supposition is non-sensical to me.
>> 
>> 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some 
>> sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, 
>> who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one 
>> might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
>> Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
>> operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
>> For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A 
>> couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve 
>> incryption and who would not misuse it.
>> I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.
>> 
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
>> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable 
>> search
>> 
>>   Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
>> especially for blind users.
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
>> true?
>> 
>> On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
>>> I have a very important comment:
>>> This topic should be off topic for this 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[E.T.]

Michael,
   I urge you to do your own moderating by using that delete key on 
messages that bother you. I had to do that very task hundreds of times 
just this week. And I expect that task is far from over. (smiles)


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:52 AM, Michael Malver wrote:

Two questions:
1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
That supposition is non-sensical to me.

2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some sort 
of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, who 
could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one might 
now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A couple 
bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve incryption and 
who would not misuse it.
I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

 Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
especially for blind users.

  From E.T.'s Keyboard...
 ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:

I have a very important comment:
This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind people 
interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right about this.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

--
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list.

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feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.

Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is
Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

The archives for this list can be searched at:
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list.

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- you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com

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Visit this group at 

RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Michael Malver]

Maybe I’m confused.
I thought the issue what that law enforcement couldn't hack the password to 
this guy's phone, thus they can't get to the data.
Is Apple's incryption truly uncrackable, that is, if Apple could remove the 
data storage from the unit, can they not decrypt their own encryption? I guess 
I just assumed most encryption schemes used by operating systems had already 
been hacked by someone.  


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Scott Granados
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:57 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

Hi Michael,

I agree with you on the first I think this topic is equally important to any 
citizens or anyone who does business or transacts with in the US.  So I agree I 
think it’s important for blind users but in the same way it’s important for 
left handed users or PC users.:)

Secondly, you ask a good question but think it through with me.  Once you 
introduce a mechanism to break through security you make an opening available 
to be exploited.  So let’s say Apple develops some magical way to crack their 
cyphers, that method now exists for the bad guys.  Once it exists you can’t put 
it back in the box.  So what Apple doesn’t want to do is compromise everyones 
security just to examine the contents of a single phone.

Does that make sense I hope I explained that well.

Good question btw.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> Two questions:
> 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
> That supposition is non-sensical to me.
> 
> 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some 
> sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, 
> who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one 
> might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
> Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
> operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
> For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A 
> couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve 
> incryption and who would not misuse it.
> I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable 
> search
> 
>Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
> especially for blind users.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited in the past. What if it were 
> true?
> 
> On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
>> I have a very important comment:
>> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind 
>> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right 
>> about this.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
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>>> 
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>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
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> 
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> list.
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> The archives for this list 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[CHUCK REICHEL]

Hi E.T,
Your missing the boat!
Its any of the progressives whether its R or D they are both power hungry!
Any Device you have  is being tracked!
BTW thats why I am an Independent!
And filter all this news they want us to hear through the Word of GOD! :)
And a happy apple user since 1993!
Chuck


On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:53 PM, E.T. wrote:

>   The Patriot Act was exactly what came to mind. This is what scares me about 
> the Republicans. I shall say no more.
> 
>   Just keep those grubby little fingers out of my private life which is 
> hardly private any more.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 2/18/2016 9:40 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> ET very well stated.
>> 
>> The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking 
>> what Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
>> specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
>> that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security 
>> on the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for 
>> horse hockey.
>> 
>> This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end 
>> run right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in 
>> place there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father 
>> land security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  
>> Good luck!
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>>> 
>>>   Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I 
>>> say, once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a 
>>> sticky wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?
>>> 
>>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>>> Many believe that we have been visited
>>> in the past. What if it were true?
>>> 
>>> On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
 Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being 
 forced to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
 
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
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>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
> 
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to 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

Hi Michael,

I agree with you on the first I think this topic is equally important to any 
citizens or anyone who does business or transacts with in the US.  So I agree I 
think it’s important for blind users but in the same way it’s important for 
left handed users or PC users.:)

Secondly, you ask a good question but think it through with me.  Once you 
introduce a mechanism to break through security you make an opening available 
to be exploited.  So let’s say Apple develops some magical way to crack their 
cyphers, that method now exists for the bad guys.  Once it exists you can’t put 
it back in the box.  So what Apple doesn’t want to do is compromise everyones 
security just to examine the contents of a single phone.

Does that make sense I hope I explained that well.

Good question btw.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:52 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> Two questions:
> 1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
> That supposition is non-sensical to me.
> 
> 2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some 
> sort of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, 
> who could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one 
> might now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
> Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
> operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
> For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A 
> couple bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve 
> incryption and who would not misuse it.
> I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.
> 
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of E.T.
> Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
> Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search
> 
>Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
> especially for blind users.
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
>> I have a very important comment:
>> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind 
>> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right 
>> about this.
>> 
>>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>> 
>>> --
>>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>>> Visionaries list.
>>> 
>>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners 
>>> or moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>> 
>>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is 
>>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>> 
>>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>>> ---
>>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>>> "MacVisionaries" group.
>>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>>> Visit this group at https://groups.google.com/group/macvisionaries.
>>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>> 
> 
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> list.
> 
> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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> 
> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
> The archives for this list can be searched at:
> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[E.T.]

   The Patriot Act was exactly what came to mind. This is what scares 
me about the Republicans. I shall say no more.


   Just keep those grubby little fingers out of my private life which 
is hardly private any more.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:40 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

ET very well stated.

The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking what 
Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security on 
the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse 
hockey.

This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end run 
right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in place 
there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father land 
security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  Good 
luck!


On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:

   Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I say, 
once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a sticky wicket. 
We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?



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RE: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Michael Malver]

Two questions:
1. Why is this topic any more important for blind users than for any other? 
That supposition is non-sensical to me.

2. Since this topic is apparently on-topic, why couldn't Apple design some sort 
of tool whereby law enforcement could send a specific device to Apple, who 
could then take the device apart, and read/decrypt the data, much as one might 
now do through the removal of a hard rive from a laptop?
Asked another way, could something be developed which isn't part of the 
operating system, but which could helplaw enforcement perform their task?
For what it's worth, I think Tim is doing absolutely the right thing. A couple 
bad Americans shouldn't disrupt the majority of us who deserve incryption and 
who would not misuse it.
I ask the above purely as hypotheticles.


-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of E.T.
Sent: Thursday, February 18, 2016 11:40 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
especially for blind users.

 From E.T.'s Keyboard...
ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:
> I have a very important comment:
> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind 
> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right 
> about this.
>
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>>
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>
>> --
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>>
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>>
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is 
>> Cara Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>>
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> ---
>> You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
>> "MacVisionaries" group.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
>

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Berry]

Hello there,

Both of you stated it very well. You know the government doesn’t need to be in 
my business.  I hope Tim Cook fights this tooth and nail like I think he will.  
 
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 10:40 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> ET very well stated.
> 
> The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking what 
> Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
> specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
> that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security on 
> the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse 
> hockey.
> 
> This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end 
> run right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in 
> place there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father 
> land security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  
> Good luck!
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:
>> 
>>  Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I say, 
>> once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a sticky 
>> wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?
>> 
>> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>>  ancient.ali...@icloud.com
>> Many believe that we have been visited
>> in the past. What if it were true?
>> 
>> On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>>> 
>> 
>> -- 
>> The following information is important for all members of the Mac 
>> Visionaries list.
>> 
>> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
>> you feel that a member's post is inappropriate, please contact the owners or 
>> moderators directly rather than posting on the list itself.
>> 
>> Your Mac Visionaries list moderator is Mark Taylor and your owner is Cara 
>> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
>> 
>> The archives for this list can be searched at:
>> http://www.mail-archive.com/macvisionaries@googlegroups.com/
>> --- You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google 
>> Groups "MacVisionaries" group.
>> To unsubscribe from this group and stop receiving emails from it, send an 
>> email to macvisionaries+unsubscr...@googlegroups.com.
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>> For more options, visit https://groups.google.com/d/optout.
> 
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> If you have any questions or concerns about the running of this list, or if 
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> Quinn - you can reach Cara at caraqu...@caraquinn.com
> 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

ET very well stated.

The thing that amazes me is how the Media in the US is totally mistaking what 
Apple has been asked to do.  Apple is not being asked to hack in to the 
specific phone, they probably can’t.  They are being asked to create a tool 
that the government can use with out limitation to circumvent any security on 
the iPhone.  That’s BS which for the easily offended is short form for horse 
hockey.

This is just another attempt like clipper was in the mid 90s to make an end run 
right around the 4th amendment.  And you also correctly state once in place 
there’s no getting rid of it.  Remember, the patriot act and father land 
security I mean home land security were also supposed to be temporary.  Good 
luck!

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:36 PM, E.T.  wrote:
> 
>   Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and I say, 
> once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a sticky 
> wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?
> 
> From E.T.'s Keyboard...
>   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
> Many believe that we have been visited
> in the past. What if it were true?
> 
> On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>> 
> 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[E.T.]

   Not to encourage more heavy traffic but this IS an important issue 
especially for blind users.


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:30 AM, Michael Malver wrote:

I have a very important comment:
This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind people 
interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right about this.


On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

Very important comment, that’s pretty funny.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> I have a very important comment:
> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind 
> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right 
> about this.
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>> 
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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[E.T.]

   Good for Tim Cook. I heard comments from both sides of the fence and 
I say, once Big Brother moves in, there is no evicting him. Sure, its a 
sticky wicket. We want to get the bad guy but at what cost?


From E.T.'s Keyboard...
   ancient.ali...@icloud.com
Many believe that we have been visited
in the past. What if it were true?

On 2/18/2016 9:27 AM, Scott Granados wrote:

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?



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Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

No you’re not, this list has long since been determined to cover everything 
from Apple including phones, computers, watches, as well as the company itself, 
software, and the carriers or vendors who provide related products and services.

Meaning there’s nothing more on topic than Tim Cook him self, the head of Apple.

Nice try though 

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:30 PM, Michael Malver  wrote:
> 
> I have a very important comment:
> This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind 
> people interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right 
> about this.
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
>> 
>> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
>> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
>> 
>> -- 
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Re: To The List About The Recent Spam

[Scott Granados]

I do have to say, I didn’t even  notice it.  It always amazes me how quickly 
people can et their panties in a bunch.  Not saying that happened this time but 
a little f bomb here and there really isn’t the end of the world.  If that 
message offended anyone I would hate to see how they would react to the average 
work place let alone my work place.  The language is extremely salty and really 
is in the professional world in general.  As in all things, time and a place 
and all that but boy it seems especially on blindness groups our filters are 
set a little fine.

Just my take, I’m likely wrong and to be clear I am not in any questioning the 
moderation, his list his rules like em or lump em, I’m just questioning in 
general our sensitivity to language.  It’s pretty arbitrary.



> On Feb 17, 2016, at 9:44 PM, Eric Oyen  wrote:
> 
> here is an alternative: if you are going to cuss (or are tempted to), start 
> quoting william shakespear. He had some nice insults that were artistically 
> done and they don't lead to the use of profanity. :)
> 
> -eric
> 
> On Feb 17, 2016, at 7:06 PM, M. Taylor wrote:
> 
>> Terje,
>> 
>> Your post to this list, using profanity, is unacceptable.  Do not, under any 
>> circumstances, use profane language when posting to this group.
>> 
>> Thank you,
>> 
>> Mark
>> 
>> -Original Message-
>> From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com 
>> [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] On Behalf Of Terje Strømberg
>> Sent: Wednesday, February 17, 2016 1:26 PM
>> To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
>> Cc: Terje Strømberg
>> Subject: Re: To The List About The Recent Spam
>> 
>> Yeah, very strange. I am fascinated about how the fuck can this be possible? 
>> Turned off my voice over. Some kind of script maybe. To me it is surprising 
>> and interesting how it can be done, but most of all i don’t want to 
>> excperience it again. Very bad.
>> 
>> Take care
>> 
>> 17. feb. 2016 kl. 22:04 skrev Marie Lyons :
>> 
>> I can’t seem to correct it. I went in and unchecked checkboxes but I still 
>> have 3 voices. I guess what I’m needing is step by step instruction. I have 
>> a call in to accessibility support for follow-up on the spam issue.. Perhaps 
>> he can help me solve this. This didn’t seem to be a place to save changes.
>> 
>> Marie
>>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 4:12 AM, Andrew Lamanche  wrote:
>>> 
>>> In VoiceOver utility, under speech category, set all your voices to Alex 
>>> and Alex to be your default voice.  It seems as if somehow the 
>>> announcements are made by a different voice rather than default.
>>> 
>>> hope this helps.
>>> 
>>> Andrew
 On 16 Feb 2016, at 23:10, Marie Lyons  wrote:
 
 V/O F8 doesn’t do anything on my computer. Well since then I wound up with 
 3 different voices. Alex reads the message but Victoria and Fred seem to 
 make the announcements.  I don’t like this.  I have no idea why I can’t 
 fix it.
 
 Marie Lyons
> On Feb 15, 2016, at 9:18 PM, CJ Daniel  wrote:
> 
> Marie,
> 
> Press VO-F8 to launch the VO Utility.  VO-Shift-DownArrow on the Category 
> table.  Arrow to the Speech option.  VO-Shift-UpArrow to stop interacting 
> & move right to the voice options.  Press VO-SpaceBar to select it. Down 
> Arrow to the Configure option.  Pick any other voice than Alex, Bruce, or 
> Fred.  Wait for it to download & then select it.  That’ll do it.
> 
> You see there’s an ass on the list, who has figured out a string of text 
> that, when inserted into the subject line of an email, causes Alex to 
> shut down.  It’s real cute.  I hope he reaps what he’s sown.  
> 
> Hope this helps,
> 
> CJ
> 
> 
>> On Feb 15, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Marie Lyons  wrote:
>> 
>> My v/o keeps shutting down.  What can I do to fix it?
>> 
>> Marie Lyons. I had called disability support and they couldn’t 
>> figure it out.  Help greatly appreciated
>> 
>> Marie Lyons
>>> On Feb 14, 2016, at 10:55 PM, M. Taylor  wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hello Everyone,
>>> 
>>> I became aware of the offensive emails and the deliberate string 
>>> to shut down the Alex screen reader this morning.
>>> 
>>> At that time, I looked at the email address of the sender and 
>>> recognized it as one that I had just banned, last night, from the 
>>> V iPhone list, for posting offensive language.
>>> 
>>> For whatever reason, when I attempted to locate her/his address in 
>>> the members list of this group, I could not find it.  Yet, the 
>>> posts continued to come to the list.
>>> 
>>> I was away from my computer for most of the day but, upon 
>>> returning home about an hour or so ago, I managed to locate the 
>>> user and first, change his/her posting privileges and then 

Re: Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Michael Malver]

I have a very important comment:
This topic should be off topic for this list, which deals with how blind people 
interact with iPhones. I am not a moderator, but I hope I am right about this.

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 11:27 AM, Scott Granados  wrote:
> 
> Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced 
> to cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?
> 
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Any comments on Apple's position against unreasonable search

[Scott Granados]

Wonder if anyone else is following Tim Cook’s position against being forced to 
cripple the security on iPhones.  Anyone have any comments?

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Re: Android phone not vissible on my mac.

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
Ok.
Thanks for advice.
/A
> On 18 Feb 2016, at 14:16, erik burggraaf  wrote:
> 
> Hi,  It's an android thing.  If you install android file transfer for mac you 
> should see that your moto G shows up.  That may not help you get files to and 
> from the device.  For that the best option I've found is droidnas, but I 
> haven't found it easy to set up.  Total commander and one of the other file 
> managers also have a wifi plugin.
> 
> Check this link.
> http://www.inclusiveandroid.com/content/how-can-i-copy-and-paste-files-between-my-mack-and-my-droide-using-finder
>  
> 
> 
> Best,
> 
> Erik Burggraaf
> 
> 
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 3:09 AM, Anders Holmberg > > wrote:
>> 
>> Hi!
>> On my mac mini i can not see my android  Phone even when i connect it 
>> directly into it.
>> It doesn’t appeare as a device.
>> Any ideas?
>> The phone is a Motorola Moto G and the mac is a mac mini mid 2011 running 
>> elcapitan beta.
>> My victor reader stream appears as a device so its very strange that this 
>> phone does not.
>> /A
>> 
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Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay

[Jonathan C. Cohn]

info? 

Also, there is a card name in the more info followed by the word installed. 
Despite being not labeled as a button or link this is clickable on my phone and 
might give more details. What does the screen say when you click more 


Jonathan Cohn 

> On Feb 18, 2016, at 8:50 AM, Sarai Bucciarelli  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi:
> I did. Says default card.
>> On Feb 18, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
>> 
>> Did you verify that the credit card was fully authorized? Go back into your 
>> wallet and read the details of the offending card. 
>> 
>> 
>>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 20:25, Sarai Bucciarelli  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> Hi guys:
>>> I have a new iphone 6s. I bought it for Apple pay. I cannot get it to work! 
>>> I went to Sprouts, and Petco, who have apple pay. I held my phone up to the 
>>> reader. Phone vibrated, and brought up my credit card. I touched the finger 
>>> id. nothing happened! I cannot figure it out!
>>> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
>>> 
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> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
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Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay

[Sarai Bucciarelli]

Hi:
I did. Says default card.
> On Feb 18, 2016, at 7:06 AM, Jonathan Cohn  wrote:
> 
> Did you verify that the credit card was fully authorized? Go back into your 
> wallet and read the details of the offending card. 
> 
> 
>> On Feb 17, 2016, at 20:25, Sarai Bucciarelli  
>> wrote:
>> 
>> Hi guys:
>> I have a new iphone 6s. I bought it for Apple pay. I cannot get it to work! 
>> I went to Sprouts, and Petco, who have apple pay. I held my phone up to the 
>> reader. Phone vibrated, and brought up my credit card. I touched the finger 
>> id. nothing happened! I cannot figure it out!
>> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
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Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli

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Re: Android phone not vissible on my mac.

[erik burggraaf]

Hi,  It's an android thing.  If you install android file transfer for mac you 
should see that your moto G shows up.  That may not help you get files to and 
from the device.  For that the best option I've found is droidnas, but I 
haven't found it easy to set up.  Total commander and one of the other file 
managers also have a wifi plugin.

Check this link.
http://www.inclusiveandroid.com/content/how-can-i-copy-and-paste-files-between-my-mack-and-my-droide-using-finder
 


Best,

Erik Burggraaf


> On Feb 18, 2016, at 3:09 AM, Anders Holmberg  wrote:
> 
> Hi!
> On my mac mini i can not see my android  Phone even when i connect it 
> directly into it.
> It doesn’t appeare as a device.
> Any ideas?
> The phone is a Motorola Moto G and the mac is a mac mini mid 2011 running 
> elcapitan beta.
> My victor reader stream appears as a device so its very strange that this 
> phone does not.
> /A
> 
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Re: Frustrated with Apple Pay

[Jonathan Cohn]

Did you verify that the credit card was fully authorized? Go back into your 
wallet and read the details of the offending card. 


> On Feb 17, 2016, at 20:25, Sarai Bucciarelli  
> wrote:
> 
> Hi guys:
> I have a new iphone 6s. I bought it for Apple pay. I cannot get it to work! I 
> went to Sprouts, and Petco, who have apple pay. I held my phone up to the 
> reader. Phone vibrated, and brought up my credit card. I touched the finger 
> id. nothing happened! I cannot figure it out!
> Sarai D. Bucciarelli www.linkedin.com/in/SaraiDBucciarelli
> 
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Re: Record your iPad or iPhone screen

[Bill Gallik]

Just thought I’d pass along a tip when recording from an iOS device that a few 
may not be aware of and could benefit.

When locating the item you want recorded (a song, a screen, or whatever) turn 
speech off (3-finger double tap) but leave VoiceOver enabled.  What this does 
is retain the focus on the activation button — as this is a wonderful feature 
of VO -  and will allow one to activate that button with the normal double tap 
while not bringing along the VO verbalization.

Hope this helps somebody!

———-
Bill & Leader Dog Holland

wfgal...@icloud.com




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Re: Silent "T" in Yosemite

[Bill Gallik]

Well thank you so much Ann!

I will certainly take your tip and alter the keyboard voice.

(Please note that I attempted to use as many words with a “t” in them as I 
might!) ;-)
* * * * * * * * *
Bill Gallik
wfgal...@icloud.com


> On Feb 18, 2016, at 12:48 AM, Anne Robertson  wrote:
> 
> Hello Bill,
> 
> This is a well-known bug in Yosemite. Just switch to a different voice for a 
> while and it should go away. It can happen with any letter, by the way.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Anne
> 
> 
>> On 18 Feb 2016, at 02:07, Bill Gallik  wrote:
>> 
>> Good Evening to All on the Macvionaries List
>> 
>> I’m not at all certain what changes I may have made, but when typing on my 
>> Mac Mini neither the lower nor upper case “T” is spoken.  I’m certain this 
>> is a relatively recent development because I’m sure I’d have noticed it much 
>> earlier than just last week.
>> 
>> Does anyone have any thoughts on this?
>> 
>> Kindly “Thank You” to anyone offering suggestions!
>> * * * * * * * * *
>> Bill Gallik
>> wfgal...@icloud.com
>> 
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RE: bootcamp question

[Simon Fogarty]

Hi Don,

 Really easy,

In the spotlight search, type in boot camp and the assistant should pop up, you 
then hit enter and it start up.

-Original Message-
From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of don bishop
Sent: Thursday, 18 February 2016 4:24 PM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: bootcamp question

Hi all, 
I purchased my mac with maverick a couple years back. In the carton is a copy 
of bootcamp. I suspect it's badly outdated by now, I'm now running el capitan. 
Where would I go to get a current vwithsion of bootcamp?


Thanks,  

Don

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RE: Windows 7 to a network drive then to my mac

[Simon Fogarty]

Hi Tony,

If you can save the disk as an ISO format file then you could use that image to 
install I believe
Otherwise I would suggest obtaining a USB optical drive and installing from 
that.

As for installing without  sight,
To a point yes,
When you start the vm fusion installation the vm wizard asks all the questions 
such as name of machine, licence key drive size ram etc, but it’s once that 
part is done and you have to pick language in the windows setup that things get 
scratchy.

If you have a usb sound card or speakers that you can connect to the new vm 
then you might get narrator working

I haven’t done it for a few years with windows 7 but have with server 2012r2 
and things are very similar.

From: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com [mailto:macvisionaries@googlegroups.com] 
On Behalf Of Tony
Sent: Thursday, 18 February 2016 4:34 AM
To: macvisionaries@googlegroups.com
Subject: Windows 7 to a network drive then to my mac

Hi all,
I just got a Windows 7 disk that I purchased from amazon. I want to install it 
on my macbook pro, but it has no disk drive. Would I be able to copy the disk 
from a windows laptop to a network drive then install Windows 7 off of the 
network drive to my macbook using VM Fusion? Also, is there a way to do the 
Windows installation without sighted assistance? Is voiceover involved, or can 
I activate narrator to assist me?
I’m really looking forward to getting this done. Thanks for any help.

Tony Santiago
ts_...@verizon.net

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Android phone not vissible on my mac.

[Anders Holmberg]

Hi!
On my mac mini i can not see my android  Phone even when i connect it directly 
into it.
It doesn’t appeare as a device.
Any ideas?
The phone is a Motorola Moto G and the mac is a mac mini mid 2011 running 
elcapitan beta.
My victor reader stream appears as a device so its very strange that this phone 
does not.
/A

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