[Mailman-Users] Re: AT RBL again

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/30/21 1:41 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

On 3/30/21 9:33 AM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

On 3/30/2021 9:28 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I had two servers blocked by ATT, fortunately not this one. They were
both DigitalOcean droplets,[...]

FWIW, a couple of my regular correspondents have said that DO generally
does not have a great email reputation, and that they're moving lists to
other platforms.

That's probably correct, but are there other cloud VPS providers that
are better at hosting MTAs?

FWIW, mail.python.org which hosts hundreds of MM 2.1 and MM 3 lists
including this one is a DO droplet. I do note that DO is currently
listed at UCEPROTECT-Level3, but IMO, that's a racket. I.e. they list
your hosts entire ASN ranges, but if your single IP is clean, they'll
whitelist it for a price ranging from 25 CHF (about 26.50 USD) for 1
month to 90 CHF (about 95.50 USD) for 2 years


I don't believe what AT is doing has anything to do with DO or any 
other cloud platform. The IP addresses of my Mailman servers (both 2 & 
3) all have a IP reputation score of 97-99 with Senderscore.org and AT 
is still randomly blocks a server out of the blue. Linode is my cloud 
platform and they are also listed with UCEPROTECT-Level3 but no one uses 
that RBL to block email because what they are doing amounts to extortion.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Fatal Bounces ONLY on ATT (Bellsouth).NET

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/13/21 7:15 PM, steve lund wrote:

Thanks for your response. So ATT is apparently blocking the email server of
our website host.I have notified our web host so hopefully something good
will happen eventually.

BTW, so what is this "Registering" an email server with an ISP domain? I
assume that it is basically telling them that it is a legitimate email
server. Is it worthwhile trying to get our web host to do this or a waste
of time? I guess has anyone seen positive results from doing so?


AT doesn't allow such a process. Microsoft has a great program called 
SNDS that I recommend having your web host look into, especially if they 
are hosting mailing lists.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Fatal Bounces ONLY on ATT (Bellsouth).NET

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/13/21 11:00 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

As of 03:30 PST this morning the block had not been removed.

-- Mark Sapiro  The highway is for gamblers, San 
Francisco Bay Area, California better use your sense - B. Dylan


There is definitely an increase in AT blocking mail servers recently. 
I had about 5 out of the blue get blocked. Too date, AT has never 
presented any evidence for their decision to block one our IP addresses. 
I do know they block new server IPs automatically. The real problem here 
is how long they are taking to respond to block removal requests. Out of 
the 5 I had to deal with recently, one of them took 10 DAYS for them to 
remove the block. I am assuming the reason behind this lengthy delay is 
a deluge of block removal requests that they are having to deal with.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: protecting the web interface against subscription spam

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/8/21 11:27 AM, AJ wrote:

Just confirmed, the mailman server can reach the Google reCaptcha URL.
I also tried different browsers.  I do see the ReCaptcha on here:
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/

Do I need any other python modules for this?


I am leaning very heavy towards something wrong with the HTML code for 
your listinfo page. The error (if I remember correctly) is saying that 
the verification is failing which I assume is because the recaptcha UI 
element is missing. Can you send me your entire listinfo html code in a 
text file off-list so I can compare it with one of my hosted Mailman 2 
lists where I know recaptcha UI element is showing?


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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/8/21 11:21 AM, Robert Heller wrote:

Yahoo is owned by Verizon and Verizon is driving Yahoo into the ground -- they
have already driven all YahooGroups over to groups.io. Their (so called) spam
handling is screwy. There is not really very much the OP can do about it. The
(hapless) people with AOL, Netscape, Yahoo, or Verizon E-mail addresses are
probably going to continue to have mail delivery problems from Mailman lists
-- delayed delivery, delivery to spam folders, etc. As a list admin, there is
not much you can do about it. You*could*  suggest that these people move off
Yahoo -- eg move to GMail, Outlook (bad as M$ is, Outlook seems to be less
screwy than Yahoo), or Zoho, or some other E-Mail service.


This is not correct at all. We host around a 1000 Mailman lists and list 
traffic goes to thousands of Yahoo users with no delivery problems. I 
think Verizon has improved Yahoo's response to reported problems. Using 
SPF/DKIM, DMARC mitigation (as another list member mentioned), and 
handling bounce rates are very important in keeping Yahoo happy.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: AOL and other email systems

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/8/21 10:56 AM, Vako Nicolian wrote:
I am having issues with group emails sent to AOL, Yahoo email and 
similar systems.
They are either not receiving their own posts or not receiving random 
ones even in their junk folder and by logging to the web version.


See the email below as an example and I also logged in to his system, 
did search and troubleshooting without finding those lost emails.

Have you encountered similar issues? any suggestions?

Note the below Rogers account is actually a Yahoo based email.

Thanks,
Vako


This is not a Mailman 2 issue at all. It is a mail delivery issue that 
your Email provider should assist you with. Note that AOL is part of 
Yahoo. The server's mail log should show if the messages are being 
bounced or deferred. Deferred mail from Yahoo is a very common problem 
and defer messages should show up in the mail queue of the Mailman 2 server.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: protecting the web interface against subscription spam

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/5/21 4:24 PM, AJ wrote:

I've tried to enable the reCaptcha by setting the keys in mm_cfg.py and the
list subscribe page does not display the reCaptcha checkbox.
This is the case on new and old lists.  I've confirmed the following is
added to templates/en/listinfo.html

   
   
   

None of the old lists have custom listinfo.html pages.
Any clue on where else to look?

Thanks
AJ

On Fri, Mar 5, 2021 at 9:44 AM Brian Carpenter 
wrote:


On 3/5/21 9:31 AM, jor...@gmail.com wrote:

currently we get  inundated with abuse complaint mails because our
mailman instance is targeted by spambots who for whatever reason try to
subscribe to the lists at our side with addresses belonging to someone
else, and when mailman sends out the confirmation email, this is
considered spam by the recipient and occasionally reported as abuse.

Athttps://www.ralfj.de/blog/2018/06/02/mailman-subscription-spam.html
I found the hint that in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py, one should set
SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET to a random string which will trigger mailman to
embed aCSRF tokeninto the subscription form.

This, unfortunately hasn't helped. The abuse mail complaints kept
coming.

On the same page I found the note that you can also embed a captcha.
However I have not found instructions on how to do this.

If this is really the case, could somebody give me a link to where I
can find the instructions?

Depending upon what version of Mailman 2 you are running, you can add
the following to your mailman_install_dir/Mailman/mm_cfg.py

BLOCK_SPAMHAUS_LISTED_IP_SUBSCRIBE = Yes
RECAPTCHA_SITE_KEY = "recaptcha site key"
RECAPTCHA_SECRET_KEY = "recaptcha secret key"

What version of Mailman 2 are you running?

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What version of Mailman 2 are you running?

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[Mailman-Users] Re: protecting the web interface against subscription spam (solved)

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/5/21 10:01 AM, jor...@gmail.com wrote:

Am Freitag, dem 05.03.2021 um 09:41 -0500 schrieb Brian Carpenter:



Depending upon what version of Mailman 2 you are running, you can add
the following to your mailman_install_dir/Mailman/mm_cfg.py

BLOCK_SPAMHAUS_LISTED_IP_SUBSCRIBE = Yes
RECAPTCHA_SITE_KEY = "recaptcha site key"
RECAPTCHA_SECRET_KEY = "recaptcha secret key"

Thanks! Indeed that works! Thanks so much!

Caveat: only recaptcha v2 works (for me)

Cheers,

Johannes


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You're welcome and I am glad to be of assistance.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: protecting the web interface against subscription spam

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/5/21 9:31 AM, jor...@gmail.com wrote:

currently we get  inundated with abuse complaint mails because our
mailman instance is targeted by spambots who for whatever reason try to
subscribe to the lists at our side with addresses belonging to someone
else, and when mailman sends out the confirmation email, this is
considered spam by the recipient and occasionally reported as abuse.

Athttps://www.ralfj.de/blog/2018/06/02/mailman-subscription-spam.html  
I found the hint that in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py, one should set

SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET to a random string which will trigger mailman to
embed aCSRF tokeninto the subscription form.

This, unfortunately hasn't helped. The abuse mail complaints kept
coming.

On the same page I found the note that you can also embed a captcha.
However I have not found instructions on how to do this.

If this is really the case, could somebody give me a link to where I
can find the instructions?


Depending upon what version of Mailman 2 you are running, you can add 
the following to your mailman_install_dir/Mailman/mm_cfg.py


BLOCK_SPAMHAUS_LISTED_IP_SUBSCRIBE = Yes
RECAPTCHA_SITE_KEY = "recaptcha site key"
RECAPTCHA_SECRET_KEY = "recaptcha secret key"

What version of Mailman 2 are you running?

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Weird no-posting no-moderation queue bouncing of posts

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/26/21 12:21 PM, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
So the only trace I can see of the posting is the weird bounce message 
containing a copy of the posting.


Why doesn't the attempted posting go to the moderator queue, if there 
is something about the subscriber or the message that prevents it from 
being distributed? (The list in question is unmoderated for subscribers.) 


It is because you have "Should Mailman send you, the list owner, any 
bounce messages that failed to be detected by the bounce processor? 
/Yes/ is recommended." set to yes in your Bounce Processing settings. 
You may need to educate your list members on how to correctly post to 
your list.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: MM3 - allow users to see other list members in

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/11/21 4:59 AM, Stefan Bauer via Mailman-Users wrote:

is there a way to display all list members on the list overview page?



currently without logging in, one only sees the lists itself.


Are you wanting to publicly display the email addresses of your list 
members via the list overview page?


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Export members

[Brian Carpenter]

On 1/27/21 10:58 AM, David Doonan via Mailman-Users wrote:

Is there a way to export the members of a list?

Mailman version 2.1.33


This is what I have in our knowledgebase:

List administrators/moderators can now receive a backup of their 
membership roster via e-mail by using the ‘who’ command. Here are the 
instructions on how to do this:


1. Send an e-mail to listname-requ...@yourlistdomain.com. (Replace the 
listname and your listdomain.com with your own list specific information)


2. In the subject line, type “who password”. Do not add the quotes, and 
substitute ‘password’ with your list administrator or moderator password.


The mailman server will reply to the who command with a break down of 
your membership roster between regular (non-digest members) members and 
digest members. It will even include their full name if it was added 
previously to the roster.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: some mails do not arrive to the list

[Brian Carpenter]

On 1/18/21 2:38 PM, serge billon wrote:

I manage for an association a mailman list on cpanel
The president has changed her address and since she changed her address her 
e-mails no longer reach the recipients.
Her e-mails are well archived, but no one has received them.
It is the same for another person.
Do you have an idea of the bug and how to fix it?


This is not a bug. The first question to ask is does the new email 
address have permission to post? When you say her emails are well 
archived, do you mean posts that are sent from the NEW email address are 
showing up in the pipermail archives? If they are, then the list is most 
likely working fine.


How do you know everyone has not received the posts from the list? Have 
you actually confirmed that? I host Mailman lists and I have had list 
owners come to me saying no one is receiving mail from their lists only 
to find out it was actually 2-3 members that were not receiving posts.


You don't need to contact your host provider just yet. Go into cPanel 
and click on the Track Delivery icon (located in the Email section of 
cPanel) and see if list traffic is showing up there. The 'From' column 
will show listname-bounces@listdomain. You can also add a member or 
two's email address in the recipient's search box to see what is 
showing. If the 'Result' column shows accepted then the list post was 
delivered and the problem is not on Mailman's end.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: Newbie question - installing on GoDaddy?

[Brian Carpenter]

On 1/18/21 11:00 AM, Odhiambo Washington wrote:

On Mon, 18 Jan 2021 at 18:44, Vicki Mieth  wrote:


Has anyone installed mailman on a GoDaddy based website?  Did you have
problems?
I need this functionality, but I'm not that much of a techie to feel
comfortable without asking someone who has done this before.

Thank you.



Hi Vicki,

Mailman generally requires:
1. Python (v3 now, since v2 is EoLed)
2. A Database (PostgreSQL, MySQL, SQLIte)
3. An SMTP server to process the e-mails to/from the mailing list(s)
4. A webserver engine (Apache, nginx, lighttpd) to serve the web UI for its
various purposes.

If the Godaddy based website meets the above requirements, then you are
very close to installing Mailman!
If Godaddy offers it as a package, then why not??

Are you referring to a Godaddy built website or a Godaddy VPS? If you 
need Mailman then Godaddy does offer access to Mailman 2 lists via their 
cPanel hosting. I would also consider using a third-party vendor such as 
ourselves to outsource your Mailman 2 needs to:


https://mailmanhost.com


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[Mailman-Users] Re: reCAPTCHA problem with some lists

[Brian Carpenter]

Look for the following line on those lists without the reCAPTCHA element:



Add the following two lines right below the above line:




That should reveal reCAPTCHA via the listinfo page for would-be 
subscribers to check when subscribing.


On 12/3/20 9:48 AM, Markus Ludwig Grandpré wrote:

Dear Brian, dear list,

it's

  

i suppose. Most lists have this line within linstinfo code, others not.

Thanks for your advise,
Markus

On 03.12.20 15:23, Brian Carpenter wrote:
Is the reCAPTCHA field showing up the on old listinfo pages? Are they 
showing up on the new ones? If yes to the latter, then you just need 
to compare the html code with the old listinfo pages and you will be 
able to find where to add the missing reCAPTCHA code.


On 12/3/20 9:18 AM, Markus Ludwig Grandpré wrote:

Dear Brian, dear list,

> Do those lists have customized listinfo pages?

no, i do'nt see any customizations. But I do think the listinfo page 
is as old as it doesn't contain any reCAPTCHA settings yet. Is that 
possible? You find an example listlinfo page attached to this mail.


Best regards,
Markus

On 03.12.20 13:34, Brian Carpenter wrote:

Do those lists have customized listinfo pages?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2020, at 4:39 AM, Markus Ludwig Grandpré 
 wrote:


Dear list,

after we installed the reCAPTCHA feature for mailman 2.1.29 users 
repor an error when using the self sign-on function of some lists:


  reCAPTCHA validation failed: missing-input-response

Most lists work well with the new reCAPTCHA feature. Can you help 
us please?


Thank you in advance,
Markus
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[Mailman-Users] Re: reCAPTCHA problem with some lists

[Brian Carpenter]

Is the reCAPTCHA field showing up the on old listinfo pages? Are they 
showing up on the new ones? If yes to the latter, then you just need to 
compare the html code with the old listinfo pages and you will be able 
to find where to add the missing reCAPTCHA code.


On 12/3/20 9:18 AM, Markus Ludwig Grandpré wrote:

Dear Brian, dear list,

> Do those lists have customized listinfo pages?

no, i do'nt see any customizations. But I do think the listinfo page 
is as old as it doesn't contain any reCAPTCHA settings yet. Is that 
possible? You find an example listlinfo page attached to this mail.


Best regards,
Markus

On 03.12.20 13:34, Brian Carpenter wrote:

Do those lists have customized listinfo pages?

Sent from my iPhone

On Dec 3, 2020, at 4:39 AM, Markus Ludwig Grandpré 
 wrote:


Dear list,

after we installed the reCAPTCHA feature for mailman 2.1.29 users 
repor an error when using the self sign-on function of some lists:


  reCAPTCHA validation failed: missing-input-response

Most lists work well with the new reCAPTCHA feature. Can you help us 
please?


Thank you in advance,
Markus
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[Mailman-Users] Re: reCAPTCHA problem with some lists

[Brian Carpenter]

Do those lists have customized listinfo pages?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Dec 3, 2020, at 4:39 AM, Markus Ludwig Grandpré 
>  wrote:
> 
> Dear list,
> 
> after we installed the reCAPTCHA feature for mailman 2.1.29 users repor an 
> error when using the self sign-on function of some lists:
> 
>  reCAPTCHA validation failed: missing-input-response
> 
> Most lists work well with the new reCAPTCHA feature. Can you help us please?
> 
> Thank you in advance,
> Markus
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[Mailman-Users] Re: From Format

[Brian Carpenter]

Do you have Dmarc enabled on the Privacy options —> Sender filters page to 
munge from on your CentOS server?

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 26, 2020, at 10:33 AM, Dennis Putnam  wrote:
> 
> I have mailman 2.1.34 running on both RHEL 7 and CentOS 7. When mail arrives 
> from CentOS 7 the from header reads:
> 
> {sender's name} via {list name} 
> 
> I don't know what I did to get that format. When mail arrives from RHEL 7 the 
> from header has just some text. I'd like the RHEL 7 from header to be the 
> same but I cannot find how to do that. Can someone point me in the right 
> direction? TIA.
> 
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> This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
> https://www.avast.com/antivirus
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[Mailman-Users] Re: cPanel mailing list accumulating space

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/10/20 5:23 PM, Tom Corcoran wrote:

Fantastic, great to hear, thanks. In forwarders I added an non existant
emailt...@mydomain.com  forwarding to my regaular email address. And a
seperate forwarder fromt...@mydomain.com  to my wife's. An hour later I
have not got this email. I don't think the "address to forward" has to be
setup as an email address separately - I already have a bunch of aliases of
my own address setup. That said I'm unsure why I have not got the email
sent to test
You are correct. A forwarder does not need a corresponding email 
account. To see what happened to your test email, try using the Track 
Delivery tool within the Email section of cPanel.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: cPanel mailing list accumulating space

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/6/20 8:09 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:

Hi all,

I have 3 mailing lists sent up for myself and my wife, so we both get
emails for 1 address. I have limited room on my server space and I want all
emails to pass through and none to be
archived.

[image: image.png]

I have got help on this list before for this issue,
https://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-users@python.org/msg72230.html
_but_ the lists are still archiving, see picture above, This might not
sound like much but I only have about 30MB to play with my allotment so
it's *very *tight.

I can ask my isp to delete and have done ion the past but I want to set it
up so it's 100% pass through.

Currently, the lists are setup as follows:
[image: image.png]
Non-digest options -> scrub_nondigestis set to No.

I have tried the cpanel forum before with no help given.

How are things getting stored?

Any help much appreciated.

Tom.
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Hi Tom,

I am a cPanel host that offers Mailman 2 hosting and I have seen disk 
storage accumulate, even for those lists that have archiving turned off. 
The storage usage is most likely coming from the attachment directory. 
You can ask your ISP to periodically clean it out for you.


For what its worth, we include unlimited storage for our Mailman 3 
clients and several gigabytes of storage for our Mailman 2 clients. You 
can go to https://mailmanhost.com for more information or you can 
contact me off list.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Delete a message from the list archive

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/2/20 4:26 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

In a Mailman mailing list (which runs in a cPanel installation), a user sent a 
message which was not really for the list.

Of course, all "normal" recipients already have this message in their 
mailboxes. There is nothing I could do there.

But is it possible to delete this single message from the list’s archive, so that it will 
not be there "forever" and not show up in the digest the next day?

Thank you, Christian


It is possible but your cPanel hosting provider will need to do it. They 
will need to remove the message from your list's mbox file and then 
rebuild your archives. At least that is the way I handle that situation 
for my own Mailman 2 clients. I don't believe it is possible for a 
cPanel user to do this since they normally don't have root access to the 
server.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Non-member regexps

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/30/20 10:17 AM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

Is this Mailman 2.1 or Mailman 3? If Mailman 3, please join the
mailman-us...@mailman3.org  list at
<https://lists.mailman3.org/mailman3/lists/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/>
and post there.

I will follow up once I know which Mailman this is.


No need to Mark. It is a bug with our interface. A fix will be posted today.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Virtualhosts in mailman 3 / postorius

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/25/20 6:49 AM, Johannes Rohr wrote:

I am now playing around with Mailman 3,  considering to migrate
eventually. Reading the documentation, I haven't understood whether
there is still a possibility to configure virtual hosts within mailman.

My goal is to ensure that visitors ofhttps://lists.domain1.org  only see
the lists @lists.domain1.org and not the others, just as the setting
VIRTUAL_HOST_OVERVIEW = 1 in /etc/mailman/mm_cfg.py does. I would assume
that one can have a similar behaviour in mailman3, can't one?


It is possible with the following setting set via settings_local.py:

filter_vhost = true

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Removed archive messages won't die

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/23/20 9:52 AM, Thomas Gramstad wrote:
I'm trying to get rid of some test messages, unsubscribe messages, and 
a misdirected personal message from a public list archive (Mailman 
2.1.29).


The problem is that the archived messages keep resurrecting themselves 
in the date.html file, even if the actual message files have been 
deleted, after I edit them away from the date.html file.


How can I prevent this behavior, so that only actually existing 
archive messages show up in the archive index file date.html? 


Hi Thomas,

I believe you have to delete the message from your list's mbox file 
(mailman_install_dir/archives/private/listname.mbox/listname.mbox) and 
then rebuild your archives "mailman_install_dir/bin/arch --wipe listname".


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[Mailman-Users] Re: extracting a lists's setting to move the list to a new domain

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/20/20 4:35 PM, Steven Jones wrote:

I cant find anything on extracting a list's settings, owners etc and then using 
those to create a new list on a new domain.

Is there a simple operational command to extract and inject?


Do you have root or admin access to the server? There are tools in the 
bin directory that allows for such functions via the command line. You 
can retrieve your list roster using the who command via email. Also the 
list/listname/config.pck has all that information but again you need to 
have root access to the server to retrieve that. Here are some 
directions to use the WHO command:



1. Send an e-mail to listname-requ...@yourlistdomain.com. (Replace the 
listname and your listdomain.com with your own list specific information)


2. In the subject line, type “who password”. Do not add the quotes, and 
substitute ‘password’ with your list administrator or moderator password.


The mailman server will reply to the who command with a break down of 
your membership roster between regular (non-digest members) members and 
digest members. It will even include their full name if it was added 
previously to the roster.



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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/17/20 2:27 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

On Thu, 2020-09-17 at 14:15 -0400, Brian Carpenter wrote:
Absolutely not.  I'm intrigued by the idea of mailman-core (1/3 of mm3)
with a lightweight web-based GUI in front of it.  But, to date, that
doesn't exist. I also don't see the need for a db and api with a MLM,
but I do see value in those things.


No just a need for a 15 year out-dated user interface and a MLM that 
requires an EOL version of Python. Otherwise Mailman 3 can behave in the 
same manner as Mailman 2. The installation of Mailman 3 takes an hour. 
That includes OS, web server, database, MTA and python 3. All of the 
complexity you continue to gripe about is, to use your word, fud.




That's just FUD.  Don't take offense because I haven't taken you up on
your mm3 work around(s).  I have mm3 installs, but they are not what my
users want.


There it is again. A use of a word meant to imply something negative. 
Affinity and Empathy are not "workarounds". They are modern interfaces 
that I developed because I host MANY list owners with all kinds of 
requirements. I also wanted something to set apart myself from other 
potential competitors. I am still using Postorius and Hyperkitty to for 
Mailman 3 hosting clients. They are still fine to work with.


So your users don't want to use a MLM that works just like Mailman 2? 
Mailman 3 can just be that but the potential to be more is there, a 
potential that Mailman 2 does not have.




Again, you're the guy who had to pay someone else to make 2/3rds of
Mailman 3 work for you.


Again a disingenuous remark. You pull the same bs with Stephen all the 
time. Mailman 3 works fine apart from Affinity/Empathy. I accomplished a 
bold marketing and brand move with those two applications. You wouldn't 
understand that. I am no longer on the same playing field with budget 
hosts. I have set my company apart from them. Why because Mailman 3 gave 
me the ability to do that. Mailman 2 did not.



My "custom scripts" are cron+bash scripts to send monthly mailman
reports out to admins.  Hardly anything that can't be re-worked anywhere
else, but why?


Then why bring them up as a reason to not use MM3?



Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to
Mailman 3 within a day.

I won't be your salesman.


Yet you have been in the past. Jimmy, did I offend you???



I hope you one day see how ridiculous that sounds as an elevator pitch.


Not anymore ridiculous as your proposals to work harder to keep an EOL 
MLM application alive when its replacement is alive and well.




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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/17/20 1:59 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

I am in no way a programmer - but as I understand it, Python 2 can live 
alongside Python 3 without any problems.

The EOL declaration for Python 2 does NOT mean that Python 2 will stop working 
on the date the publishers announced. There will just be no improvements. And 
as long as there are no obvious security holes in Python 2, it is absolutely 
not necessary to retire it on any machine.

I am administering some mailing lists which run on MM2 / cPanel, and they work. 
I have no access to that machine other than via cPanel, and it is in most cases 
sufficient. The question of Python 2 yes or no is up to the provider.

If you absolutely want to get rid of Python 2, either use Mailman 3, or another 
mailing list manager.

There are some other mailing list managers available - some for free, some for money. I can 
propose 2 of them here, you mey find others which may work for you. I am also operating some 
mailing lists privately, they don’t use Mailman. They use CommuniGate Pro in the 
"community edition" (free version with limited number of mail and other users, but 
unlimited number of mailing lists and mailing list subscribers). This runs on an older Mac mini 
in my basement - CGPro is also available for Windows, Linux, etc. 
-<https://communigate.com/>

And there is Sympa, a mailing list manager created by people from French universities, 
see<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sympa>  and<https://www.sympa.org/>

Christian


I am sure Christian also meant to include me in their list of other 
choices: https://harmonylists.com. At least I still offer Mailman 3 
howbeit as a SaaS provider and not encourage a fellow mailman user on a 
mailman user list to move away from using mailman.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/17/20 1:45 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

That's kind of my point. mm2 works for me and my use, I'd much rather
prefer to keep it working than to rip it out and replace it, including
installed and maintaining a database, a framework, a new setup of custom
admin scripts unique to my setup, etc.  No one has sold me on mm3 yet.


It's because you don't want to be sold. But I will say this, what you 
want as a list owner, and what your list members want are two different 
things. They may line up and they may not. But I suspect many list 
owners are watching their mm2 lists shrink either in membership size or 
posting activity. Communication behavior changes. Social media has had a 
tremendous impact on how communications work on the web. Integrations 
are very important to a lot of groups. None of these things are possible 
with Mailman 2. Mailman 2 is inflexible as your position to not be 
swayed to use Mailman 3.


Also your above comments show your unjustified bias against Mailman 3: 
"you have to do so many things to use Mailman 3". No you don't. I think 
the real culprit is your custom admin scripts that you are using to make 
up for whatever shortcomings you found with MM2.  You don't want to go 
through the task of getting them to work with Mailman 3. Perhaps you 
can't. So at least that is a valid point for wanting to stick with MM2. 
However that is not the fault of Mailman 3.



I'm not sure what the point of this is. According to
<https://www.mailop.org/about/>;, MAILOP is already on Mailman 3.

They are not, (i'd guess most likely due to overly optimistic views on
how easy a migration to mm3 would be, perhaps they needed a bigger
server or had to hire a database guy, who really knows).  What i do know
is that, from a post yesterday, they are still using an old Mailman
version:

Date: Wed, 16 Sep 2020 08:37:43 -0500
Subject: Re: [mailop] Spam using bit.ly link shorteners,
 this time via Outlook
X-BeenThere:mai...@mailop.org
X-Mailman-Version: 2.1.18
Precedence: list
List-Id: For mail operators 


I'd email Simon to ask why the discrepancy, but he's already alluded to
it a few times on their list.  Note: he originally planned to started
moving mailop.org to mm3 last December, so he's had plenty of time.


Please let Simon know I can install Mailman 3 and migrate his list to 
Mailman 3 within a day.





It appears NANOG has only 3 public Mailman 2.1 lists and only one has
archives pre-dating MM 2.1 which could require attention before
importing to HyperKitty. So list migration via `mailman import21` and
`django-admin hyperkitty_import` should be straightforward.

I guess you are saying that step 1, "First install Mailman 3" would be
the sticking point, but this is the same whether you are NANOG or
mail.python.org or tiny site with one list, and it has been accomplished
multiple times by multiple people. I've documented my experience at
<https://wiki.list.org/x/17891998>;. Brian's take is at
<https://wiki.list.org/x/17892066>;.


I've read both of those links in the past, and honestly that is good
detail to have.  What I was looking for in an "elevator pitch" is a 30
second statement on what benefit someone would have by moving to mm3.
Given the time and effort (big or small) why should anyone move to mm3
if their mm2 installation still works and functions fine?  There are
people here saying "move to mm3 now!!, etc.", but what's the selling
point?

-Jim P.


I have been posting those selling points frequently. But you are 
*inflexible* in your insistence in using MM2.


I will give you a 3 second selling point: *flexibility*, choices, future 
new features, searchable archives, a growing community of users, etc.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/17/20 10:36 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

Would it though?  Is that conjecture or based on available data that can
be analyzed?  Here's my POV, if mm2 can (and it appears to me that it
can somewhat easily) be fixed to use py3 then all the installed bases of
mm2 don't have to learn/deal/secure/test/manage/deal with a REST API
and/or Flask, etc.  All those current mm2 admins get to continue life as
they normally do.  They save a weekend (or a month in some cases) and
some even save some $$, by not having to significantly change their
Mailman installation or server size, etc.  What I'm trying to do is
provide a painless (or, at least a less painful) path forward for all
those existing Mailman sites that don't want to deal with all the same
issues that are appearing over on the MM3-users list and in #mailman.


I am seeing issues with MM2 on this list. Issues always exist with 
software applications so please stop using that as an argument against 
the adoption of Mailman 3. It's disingenuous.


Django is complex so moving away from it would reduce the complexity of 
a Mailman 3 installation procedure and maintenance. I manage dozens of 
mailman 2 and mailman 3 servers. When it comes to maintenance and 
support issues not much of a difference between the two. I will tell you 
this though, migrating a mm2 list to mm3 is easy and effective.


See, this discussion of changing interfaces for Mailman 3 itself 
demonstrates the flexibility of Mailman 3. A flexibility Mailman 2 will 
never see. The needs of list admins (and let's not forget list members) 
do change and they should as evolution of email discourse continues to 
change. Mailman 3 is in a better position to meet the needs of list 
admins (and let's not forget list members) far better than Mailman 2.


Personally having the ability to communicate with a list using email and 
a lightweight forum at the same time is a great thing. In fact, I think 
it is the future as list members will grow to like the flexibility. 
Let's not forget the way archives become instantly more useful with an 
include search feature in a Mailman 3 installation.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/17/20 9:54 AM, Matthew Pounsett wrote:

If someone was going to undertake a rewrite of Postorius, using a different
web development framework (e.g. Flask, but pretty much anything that isn't
Django) would at least remove one major moving part from the install
process.


We went with Laravel (PHP) when we replaced Postorius with our Affinity. 
It's not python but we didn't want to use a python framework.


FYI, here is a decent comparison of Django vs Flask:

https://hackr.io/blog/flask-vs-django

In the article, this was said:

"Django is suited for bigger projects that need a lot of functionality. 
For simpler projects, the features might be an overdose"


Do you think Mailman 3 would be considered a "bigger project" that needs 
a lot of functionality?


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/15/20 8:18 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

A small group, including myself, are planning to present a proposal.  We
are in the early stage of defining what that will involve, but we are
all committed.  I've also, as you've probably seen on lp, been focused
on pushing my py3 changes for mm2 to get them to the point of usable
testing.  I'm not anti-mm3 but myself and some others certainly do see
the ongoing need for a MLM like mm2.


When you say py3, are you talking about python 3? Are you trying to make 
mm2 python 3 compatible?


So this labor you and your group are looking to do for MM2, how is this 
not going to take more time then just migrating to MM3? One of your 
criticism is that MM3 is complex and it is difficult to install. How is 
all of this effort you are making staying with a version of Mailman that 
has been updated (MM2 to MM3), and uses an interface that is over 15 
years old productive? I don't see this path you are trying to take as 
one that is less complex and difficult than just moving to a MM3 
environment. At this point, those who use MM2 via cPanel will most 
likely not benefit from your efforts. Especially if you port MM2 to 
python 3 (this is an assumption I am making). I don't think cPanel will 
touch such a version at all.


By the way, with all the problems I have seen with some folks having a 
difficult time with installing MM2 on this list, I think the arguments 
that MM3 is too difficult to install (it's not) weakens considerably. I 
still think non-cPanel MM2 users' time is better spent learning to 
install MM3 and using it. Or better yet use a Mailman 3 host provider 
such as myself to make their lives considerably easier.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/15/20 4:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
If only this were a meeting conducted under Robert's Rules, the Chair 
would have invoked cloture, or at least referred this issue back to 
committee.  All interested parties have made their arguments, 
positions have hardened, and debate has become unrevealing.


Insofar as anything ever dies on the Internet, this abused equine is 
pinin' for the grassy fjords.


Please, can we convert this into a three-way private conversation, and 
consign this nearly ninety-entry email thread to history?  My screen 
isn't wide enough to handle the indentation required. 


Please don't make this private. Chip doesn't have to read it. That is 
why email programs contain a delete button.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/15/20 11:59 AM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

Ok, that makes sense. I wonder if we can get him to license/allow a copy
for use by Python.org.


Only if they agree to use it on a server on my network with no root 
access allowed. Since Affinity and Empathy are not python apps, I doubt 
they would ever agree to that, especially since Postorius and HK are 
developed with python, howbeit Django projects.




I went to the last link at the bottom of this list's posts and clicked
on the (first) item with the same Subject as this email.  I paged down
into that long page to find the single post that I wanted to link to.
After a while I gave up trying to find it because I was distracted by
all the out-of-order posts that were displayed there.  Go try it
yourself, look at how the past post of "I'm done Jim" is listed right
after your most recent post today.  I get that HK is different than
Pipermail, but there's something stylish and simplistic about Pipermail
that make it easy to use.


I am not sure if Empathy would be any better but feel free to try:

https://harmonylists.io/empathy/list/affinity-beta.harmonylists.io

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 9/13/20 3:39 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
I am loathe, as a lowly list administrator (on cPanel hosts, at that) 
to participate in the clash of titans,  but this _is_ the 
"mailman-users" discussion list.  It is somewhat distressing to see so 
little participation by the Mailman2 users, who will be most affected 
by any changes in its support.


Speaking as _a_ user, my requirements are simple:
  1.  MM2 must continue to work,
  2.  support must continue to be provided.

Any proposal that jeopardizes those fundamentals must be rejected.

By "support", I mean everything except new functionality: bug fixes, 
installation/administration hand-holding, dumb questions not properly 
answered by the user community, the occasional "Why does Mailman do 
this?" query, and any number of issues that depend on the encyclopedic 
institutional knowledge residing in Mark's and Stephen's crania. 


The first line of support should come from your cPanel host and perhaps 
cPanel themselves. They made their own modifications to Mailman and with 
Mark's correct thinking on support custom modifications, cPanel should 
be supporting their version of Mailman.


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[Mailman-Users] Affinity and Empathy is now available

[Brian Carpenter]

Dear Mailman 2 Users,

We have launched Affinity and Empathy and they now are part of our 
shared and cloud Mailman 3 hosting services. Affinity replaces Postorius 
and Empathy replaces Hyperkitty. We can easily migrate current mailman 2 
lists to this new Mailman 3 environment.


You can read more at https://mailmanhost.com

Please email me off-list if you have any questions.

Brian Carpenter
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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 8/26/20 10:29 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
What I don't understand is your vitriolic objection to Jim's offer. 
How is that any skin off your nose?  Do you see this as a zero-sum 
game in which every MM2 instance that doesn't "upgrade" is a threat to 
MM3?  If it's as superior as you claim, there should be a thunderous 
stampede to adopt MM3.  The bazaar will speak eloquently.  What, 
exactly, is the cock you have in this pit?


Bottom Line: As long as there are inexpensive cPanel hosts running 
Mailman 2, *I have no choice*.   So I greatly appreciate Jim's offer 
to pick up the burden and allow Mark to move on. 


I watched for years how cheap budget hosts provided crap support for the 
software that they hosted. I watched Mark for years take on that extra 
burden of making up for their crap support because of it via the old MM2 
user list.


I am sure Mark has moved on from Mailman 2, at least he has said that on 
numerous occasions. It is you folks that won't let him. You want to keep 
using MM2 and you want the developers to keep supporting it. That 
pressure can/does hinder the work on Mailman 3.


I really did not like Jim's comment and that set me off:

"I hate to say this, but I'm sensing an exclusivity in your and Mark's 
comments. Is Mailman a open source project or is it an exclusive club?"


I really don't like your comments either towards me in the quote above 
and the way you mis-represented Mailman 3 in your reply to
Odhiambo. I offer shared and dedicated environments for Mailman 3 and 
none of my clients have to worry about the complexities of Mailman 3 at 
all. I didn't like the way Carl quoted an old piece of information and 
when he was corrected, proceeded to dig in his heels. I didn't like a 
lurker who never posted to any Mailman list before, suddenly come out of 
the woodwork to mock me on the use of "long life"


By the way there is always a choice. I have been offering Mailman 3 
shared list hosting for almost 2 years now. It's that few extra dollars 
a month that is a budget breakers for cheap host users. Oh well.


I know now that none of you have any intention of using or supporting 
Mailman 3. My pro MM3 comments have been mocked, ignored, and discarded. 
Ok. Fine. I think none of you has shown any respect or appreciation in 
the work that has been done to propel the Mailman project into the 
modern web development world. That shows that all you really care about 
is your wallets and how much you may have to work to move your lists to 
a Mailman 3 environment. This isn't about Mailman at all. It's about how 
can have a mailing list and stay using a cheap budget host. For Jim? 
Well I don't really care why he doesn't use Mailman 3. I think his 
claims about wanting to support Mailman is a joke. If he really wanted 
to support the Mailman project, then he would throw his weight behind 
Mailman 3.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 8/26/20 8:49 PM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote:
The point was that the argument about MM3 having a long life 
expectancy "because python 3" is not in any way, shape, or form 
supported by the history of the python programming language to date.


Arguing that MM3 itself is going to be supported because there's more 
that just Mark supporting it effectively boils down to "Mark will stop 
patching MM2". That's certainly possible, but maybe we should ask him 
instead of taking your word for it?


Ok. I will shut-up now.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 8/26/20 8:13 PM, Dmitri Maziuk wrote:
Python $version code has a long life expectancy? Wow. When did that 
happen? 


Wonderful contribution to this conversation.

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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 8/26/20 7:02 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:


I'm not sure where you think money comes into this, unless you are
admitting that moving to mm3 requires expensive consulting contracts.
I've turned down 2 large orgs that had trouble migrating from mm2 to mm3
and needed a 3rd party to bail them out.  Brian, I recall referring one
of them to you.  So, I guess, money does come into play.  Fear is
another interesting choice of words.  Do you think that the fear might
be due to someone repeating over and over that this open source project
is dead and will only be in maintenance mode (life support?) going
forward?


Because the main reason why Mailman 2 has seen the popular use that it 
does is because of budget hosts that offered cPanel and Plesk 
environments. Both of them included Mailman 2 with their packages. I do 
know some hosting control panels are starting to drop support for 
Mailman 2 and that will continue to grow. I personally don't think 
Mailman 3 will see as large of an adoption rate as Mailman 2. That is 
because cheap hosting companies are not interested in quality but 
quantity. cPanel will probably never adopt Mailman 3. Dreamhost said no 
to it and will keep Mailman 2 for now. Why? Because Mailman 3 requires a 
more complex environment. However, my opinion, most well developed apps 
do. So SaaS providers such as myself will play a more important role in 
the propagation of Mailman 3. That's not a bad thing. At least Mailman 3 
will have providers who will provide expert and conscientious support of 
Mailman 3 than some of these budget hosts (looking at you A2).


I think what prevents folks like you and Carl, ultimately, is fear of 
the unknown. Mailman 3 does not require expensive consulting contracts. 
I made a $150 bucks from your referral. That doesn't break no one's 
budget. Also I would appreciate if you keep our private conversations 
off of a public mailing list.


Mark is simply saying it doesn't make sent to continue to build up a 
retired application (MM2) and instead focus their limited resources on a 
young stallion called MM3. There is nothing wrong with that. Go to 
someone else for the development of MM2.



Let's recognize that mm3 has been around for 10 years, and during that
time mm2 has been expanded and enhanced over and over.  The difference
now is that the gatekeeper who was doing that wants to move on, and
should have the right and support to move on.


Well fine, then let those hosts take on the > responsibility of

keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source > is all about.

That, *that* ^^^, is my point.  I want to take that on, I want to work
with contributors to commit their vetted and tested patches into the mm2
branch, I've basically been told to go somewhere else to do it.  I think
who/m ever takes it on should be part of the Mailman Team.  There is
absolutely no reason against, and there are certainly several examples
for, having 2 or more active development branches in an open source (or
closed source for that matter) project.


So go to cPanel forums to request that or Dreamhost, or others. I am 
pretty sure you will not like the answer you will get from them. Why 
wouldn't you just spend your efforts to migrate to Mailman 3? I just 
don't see the logic in your efforts here.


I didn't like Postorius or Hyperkitty (still don't, sorry Mark and Abs). 
So due to that beautiful REST api, I made my own path. At the end of the 
day, its still Mailman 3 that I am using. Modern web development offers 
so much choices and potentials these days for users. It's just sad that 
Mailman 2 will never see those choices and potentials because it just 
doesn't have the foundation to do so. It is dead in the water. But it is 
resurrected in Mailman 3.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 8/26/20 7:20 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:

On 8/26/2020 3:50 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote:

On 8/26/20 6:25 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:



So they will not notice a migration to Mailman 3 at all then.


You miss the point- _I'll_ notice, I'm the one who'd be doing the work.


Well, I am sorry to suggest there be some work to be done in a migration.



Also, from 
https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html
"The short version is that as of now, upgrading from Mailman 2.1 to 
Mailman 3.1 is buggy."


I am pretty sure that documentation is old. Here is a quote from the 
above page:

[...]

Old? You've quoted the next paragraph on the same page.


So? I did that to prove that the document was outdated. That's all.



And why would I use linux when I have FreeBSD? :)

That is good as long as no major "DMARC" events come along. Nobody is 
complaining that folks are using MM2. But I am seeing some complaints 
pointed at the MM developers for no longer willing to develop MM2.


That's a completely separate topic and you'll have noticed that I'm 
not one of the complainers.



See, the problem here is, the developers did develop and improve the
Mailman project, its just now called Mailman 3. So embrace and respect
their hard work and move your dang lists to Mailman 3!


When I get to it, maybe in 2022.


Ok. But that then goes against your original premise. MM2 isn't broke so 
why move from it. Ever.





The thing is- no matter how much you may want people to "upgrade", 
there just aren't sufficient reasons for potentially a lot of small 
list operators. Perhaps I'm a luddite- I drive a 15 year old car 
because it works, most of my home systems are 5+ years old because 
they work and are plenty fast for the load, I use a 18? year old 
Brother printer because it works, etc. When one of them stops working 
it'll get replaced (if I can't repair it). There is little reason to 
replace things that still function as much as one needs.


Ok. Except this isn't about just list operators, or moderators, but also 
list members. There are a lot of roles involved here. Mailman 3 is the 
future. That REST api is awesome. It allowed me to do things with 
Mailman 3 that just wasn't possible with Mailman 2. I think some of the 
criticisms is really directed at Postorius/Hyperkitty and not Mailman 3 
core. The thing about those interfaces is they too can be improved 
continually, and due to the use of Python 3 and modern web development, 
have far more potential to make the lives of list owners, moderators, 
and members more easier and productive. You are not going to see that 
with Mailman 2. You like using antiques? Ok, go for it.


I heartily agree. Developers move on all the time and sometimes others 
pick up the codebase and run with it. Embrace that.


Nope. I am going with improving the quality of life for list owners, 
moderators, and members by embracing Mailman 3 and its REST api.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 8/26/20 6:25 PM, Carl Zwanzig wrote:


As someone regularly uses and maintains a fair bit of old and antique 
machinery, MM2 still has a lot of life in it. Yes, the original team 
isn't going to do much with it, but others probably will. And for 
someone who wants to run a few simple lists* , MM3 is, um, rather a 
heavyweight. If I'm reading things correctly, in addition to the web 
server you need python3, django, a sass compiler (w/ ruby overhead), 
anything else? It certainly doesn't look as easy to install or 
configure as MM2.


MM2 has some life. That is correct. MM3 has far more. As someone who has 
now installed Mailman 3 multiple times, I say from experience, it is 
very easy to install AND to keep up to date. The server overhead is 
pretty low as well. So again, the wording you chose is misleading. 
Installing the environment for a MM3 setup is very easy on a modern 
linux distribution.





*(I have 3 lists, at most 50 people on each, hardly ever any changes)


So they will not notice a migration to Mailman 3 at all then.




Also, from 
https://docs.mailman3.org/en/latest/pre-installation-guide.html
"The short version is that as of now, upgrading from Mailman 2.1 to 
Mailman 3.1 is buggy."


I am pretty sure that documentation is old. Here is a quote from the 
above page:


"Now the long version. Because of the changes in Database Schema, 
migrating from Mailman 2.1 to Mailman 3.1 is not very easy, though it 
can be done with some scripting. We are working on it and it should be 
working soon, we don’t have an exact timeline on it though."


Well they did come up with two scripts for migrating MM2 lists to MM3 
and they have been out for a while. I just migrated over 60 MM2 lists to 
our Mailman 3 cloud environment without a single error. List settings, 
members, and archives were all migrated easily.





So, it's likely that a lot of people will still be using MM2 for at 
least a few years (heck there are are Solaris -7- systems out there, 
happily running production code). That ship is happily performing it's 
daily passenger runs. 


That is good as long as no major "DMARC" events come along. Nobody is 
complaining that folks are using MM2. But I am seeing some complaints 
pointed at the MM developers for no longer willing to develop MM2. See, 
the problem here is, the developers did develop and improve the Mailman 
project, its just now called Mailman 3. So embrace and respect their 
hard work and move your dang lists to Mailman 3! (I am jesting with the 
exclamation point.)


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[Mailman-Users] Re: mailman v2.x

[Brian Carpenter]

On 8/26/20 3:14 PM, Chip Davis wrote:
All of my dozen Mailman instances run on shared servers.  I have no 
control over the release/distro on which I am hosted.  But my 
providers have a bazillion (est.) customers running Mailman2 and, for 
a number of reasons, are not terribly eager to force us all to convert 
to Mailman3.  By all reports, it is not an easy migration, nor are all 
features supported.  From their standpoint, maintaining a stable, if 
backlevel, Python2 to support MM2 is merely a matter of DASD, with far 
lower support costs than moving to Py3/MM3.


I think Jim's conclusion of MM2's continued viability is valid, and 
the idea of having a subset of the dev team continue to 
support/enhance it is a good idea.  And I like the "Classic Mailman" 
moniker. :-)


Python 3 is already a part of all major linux distributions. So the 
framework should already be there for a Mailman 3 installation. As for 
migrating a Mailman 2 list to Mailman 3, that is easy. The Mailman 
developers have come up with 2 scripts that do a great job of migrating 
Mailman 2 lists into a Mailman 3 server.


What happens when another "Dmarc" occurs? That event dramatically 
impacted mailing lists everywhere. At the time, only Mailman 2 needed to 
be patched and the Mailman developers did a great job of doing so 
quickly. However would that happen now if such an event repeated itself? 
Most likely not. Mailman 3 would get the attention and rightfully so.


You are all looking at the wrong thing here. The real question here is 
why are you not wanting to move to a Mailman 3 environment? It's not 
hard to install anymore. It has a future. It is modern. It as a long 
life expectancy and, most importantly, its being supported and developed.


I think the issue here is money and fear. Cheap cPanel hosts include 
Mailman 2 with their budget hosting packages and I am pretty sure that 
is who you are using. Well fine, then let those hosts take on the 
responsibility of keeping Mailman 2 up to date. That is what open source 
is all about. For me, Mailman 2 is a dinosaur and its interface is over 
20 years old. Mailman 3 is entering the world of modern web development 
and that is a great thing for users of Mailman. There are still users of 
Majordomo. But they are very few now and for good reason. Mailing lists 
are evolving and have moved on.


Get off a ship that is no longer sailing ahead and wants to instead to 
permanently anchor in place. It's ok, the new ship is more modern and 
has AC!


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Disable mailman 3 emergency moderation flag after migration from mailman 2

[Brian Carpenter]

On 7/27/20 9:34 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

Coincidentally, this was just asked and answered there. See the thread
at
<https://lists.mailman3.org/archives/list/mailman-us...@mailman3.org/thread/EQMOVCBIOGVMHYXCIMKO6ZB463QMECQA/>.
Don't overlook my second post correcting errors in my firs reply.


This is the client that I asking about in my post. She said what I did, 
did not work. This is what I did:


1. Get into a venv as user mailman

2. #mailman shell
>>> from mailman.model.mailinglist import MailingList
>>> mlist = MailingList('listn...@listdomain.org')
>>> mlist.emergency = False
>>> commit()
ctrl-d (just to be on the safe side)

Did I not follow your instructions correctly?

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Setting a moderator password

[Brian Carpenter]

On 6/17/20 6:40 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

  Do moderators log in on a different login screen
than the normal one or something?


Instead of admin use admindb

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[Mailman-Users] Re: Can I make mailman archive the bounce messages it has processed?

[Brian Carpenter]

On 6/11/20 8:31 AM, florian.roe...@gmx.de wrote:

I am really new to mailman so maybe I am just missing something obvious. 
However, as far as I understood, when a message sent from a list triggers a 
bounce at some user, mailman will try to automatically parse the bounce, assign 
appropriate bounce scores and then discard the message. However, I would like 
to see the bounce message. The reason is that one of my subscribers complains 
that she does not get the messages from the list and I see her bounce score 
increasing, but she has no idea why the messages are bouncing. As she is not 
that tech savvy, I would really like to help her but for this I would need to 
see the bounce message to extract the reason why it is bouncing.


The reason for the bounce will be contained in the outgoing SMTP logs. 
If you don't have root access then you may need to ask your hosting 
provider to look into it. If you are on a cPanel tool then you can use 
the track delivery tool within cPanel to find the reason for bounce. I 
don't think the reason will be in the bounce message itself.


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[Mailman-Users] Re: Differences between Mailman 2 and 3

[Brian Carpenter]

Iain, I offer a full installation of Mailman 3, PostgreSQL, Postfix, and NGINX 
on a Debian 10 system if you are interested. Contact me off list. The fee to do 
this is definitely affordable.

You would definitely have a full working setup when I am done.

Brian
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[Mailman-Users] Re: Differences between Mailman 2 and 3

[Brian Carpenter]

I want to add also that a major difference is the REST API and database. 
Mailman 3 allows alternative UIs to be built to interface with Mailman 3 core. 
Our Affinity project is about to go beta and it exceeds what Postorius has to 
offer when it comes to a list owner interface that manages one or dozens of 
Mailman 3 lists. This REST API/Database has ensure Mailman 3 a secure place as 
an major contender to modern day forum/list applications such as Discourse. We 
intend to be such a contender. 

The U.I. for Mailman 2 is 20 years old. Mailman 2 users really need to starting 
thinking an exit strategy for their lists and list members. Postorius is far 
better as a UI than Mailman 2. Mailman 3 core is beautiful and will continue to 
be established and it will eventually exceed what is currently available in 
Mailman 2 (speaking by faith here). Alternative U.I.s such as Affinity however, 
IMO, really brings to light the genius of linking Mailman 3 to a database and 
REST API. I am blown away in what we are able to do to exceed the capabilities 
of Mailman 3 because of this genius.

I also think major hosting providers who offered Mailman 2 via cPanel will not 
be implementing Mailman 3 due to their own inherent limitations. Dreamhost who 
offers their own custom Mailman 2 hosting is not interested in implementing 
Mailman 3 anytime soon either. I think they are short-sighted and are failing 
their list hosting clients. We are the opposite. Mailman 2 is a major part of 
our business and now with Mailman 3, we are able to dramatically improve our 
list hosting. It just took us some effort to wean us away from cPanel.

To sum it up, Mailman 3 brings a remarkable sense of freedom and choice to the 
mailing list and now forum community. For those who wish to embrace the free 
cost of Mailman 3 for their list needs, you have Postorius and Hyperkitty to 
interface with Mailman 3. Those who wish for a commercial service that can 
bring support and a premium U.I. such as Affinity then there is us. The 
important thing now is there are wonderful choices now for companies and 
organizations to make when it comes to Mailman 3.

Man, I wrote all of this before I finished my first cup of coffee of the day. I 
need to slow down!

Brian
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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Brian Carpenter]

On 3/2/20 4:55 PM, Jim Popovitch via Mailman-Users wrote:

While I applaud Brian's efforts, I'm not convinced that I would run PHP
on a public facing portal, even in 2020.  But that's just me, others may
feel differently.


And so it begins.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/28/20 1:55 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

Quite a few core settings are not exposed in Postorius but we're
chipping away at that.


Is there a list somewhere to see what core settings have not been 
exposed in Postorius yet?


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Brian Carpenter]

 same issues.


I am not trying to blame anyone here. I just seems to me there is a lot 
of confusion with the use of Mailman 3.


The problem is the discrepancies between the versions. Once bounce 
processing shows up in Postorius that discrepancy will spread even 
further. The confusing state of installation documentation is also a 
serious problem. I ended up writing my own that I can get consistent 
results from with installing Mailman 3 on new servers. So one of my 
goals in coming up with a new approach is to make the full setup of a 
Mailman 3 server far easier to do AND document.




REST*is*  the "Mailman 3 approach" to interfacing.  Historically, at
the time Mailman 3 core got whipped into shape to start beta testing,
we went with Django for Postorius, because it was the "hot" framework
of the day, and that's what the developers who volunteered wanted to
work with.  Of course it had to be a Python framework since we'd be
maintaining it.  HyperKitty was a little bit different: the Fedora (or
Red Hat?) people wanted Mailman 3 for internal reasons, and they
contributed a pile of labor, and (AFAIK) independently chose Django
and developed the UI based on it (which is why we have two separate
Django configs).


That is fine but what I did not see is the use of U.I. designers. 
Developers make the WORST U.I. designers. U.I. design in my opinion will 
seriously hinder the acceptance of an application no matter how great it 
is. This is good information to know regardless so thank you for sharing.



*However*, the original idea was that*we*  didn't know much about UI
development, especially the peripheral features of archiving such as
search and access control, and we wanted to encourage third parties to
develop their own, or to integrate Mailman lists into their larger
platforms which already provided user interfaces.


So where was this encouragement? What larger platform did you have in 
mind to integrate Mailman lists into? I am still surprised to see no one 
has come up with a new interface for Mailman 3. I think it is important 
to find out why that is but maybe in another discussion thread.


From what I can see Mailman 3 core is rock solid. Using a database and 
the REST api was a great move so for me, that leaves the actually public 
facing interfaces to be scrutinized and that is what I have done. Based 
upon my observations  I decided to try to do something about what I see 
as some glaring weaknesses in Postorius/Django Admin/Hyperkitty.




The main Postorius devs aren't hanging out here, and we get only a
little contact in the summer with the HyperKitty devs since the Fedora
support got cut three or four years ago.;-)   If I know Mark he
started a little miffed but calmed down quickly since diverse UIs have
always been part of the vision.


Mark is awesome and I have a great working relationship with him via 
these lists throughout the years. I believe I will have that with him in 
the future as well.



As far as I know this is precisely what we wanted to happen in the
first place.  We knew that we would have to have a bundlable
user/admin interface and an archiver with a web interface, but the
original intent was not that they dominate Mailman installations.  We
should have known better, given the huge popularity of Mailman 2 with
Pipermail (oh, Lordy) as the archiver, but hope springs eternal 

I think further discussion should move to mailman-developers, though,
and please introduce your UI developer(s) to us on mailman-developers
soonish.  Nobody has huge amounts of time to put into work on Mailman
right now AFAIK, but I expect we will be willing to cooperate on any
Mailman features or fixes your developer needs in the REST interface
"in good time".


Will do and thank you for your thoughtful reply.



I'm going to be very busy until March 11, but after that I'll have
some time.  Ginning up a list of REST endpoints is the kind of thing
I'm good at, so maybe I personally could start there.


Sounds great!

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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/27/20 5:30 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I don't know why Mailman 3's DMARC mitigation is considered improved
over Mailman 2.1. It's the same. The Settings and Postorius UI for them
are more logical than MM 2.1, but they ultimately boil down to the same
things.

The latest Mailman core (not yet released but available at
<https://gitlab.com/mailman/mailman/-/tree/master>  fully implements
bounce processing. Prior to this, bounce events were stored in the
database but not processed. Now they are.
As I said, it's in the latest version of core. The list specific
settings: 'bounce_info_stale_after', 'bounce_notify_owner_on_disable',
'bounce_notify_owner_on_removal', 'bounce_score_threshold',
'bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings',
'bounce_you_are_disabled_warnings_interval' and 'process_bounces' are
not currently exposed in Postorius, but if Mailman 2.1 lists are
imported with import21, they will be set appropriately and they will be
in Postorius eventually.


I don't speak from experience in regards to my comment made on DMARC 
mitigation. It was based on observing comments that have been made.


Bounce processing will still not be available for new users of Mailman 
which is my big concern. I assume new lists will have to have those 
settings adjusted via the Mailman shell?


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/27/20 2:44 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

I
have said before that a much better use of time and resources would be
the implementation of a light weight, non-Django web UI for Mailman 3,
but I don't see anyone raising a hand to do either.


Let me be more clearer on this.

I have hired a professional PHP developer to begin work on a new 
admin/forum interface for Mailman 3. The work begins next week. We are 
only focusing on the admin (Postorius) interface initially. I also am in 
the process of hiring a front end developer for the new interfaces. I 
believe in the Mailman project, and as someone who has benefited from 
offering Mailman hosting services for years, I don't want to see it go 
away. The problems however are this:


1. Mailman 2 is great. The interface for it is very outdated. This turns 
people off. UI design has come a long way and people are use to using 
modern UIs.


2. Mailman 2 does need to be ported to python 3 eventually but Mailman 3 
is already there so why spend extra time and resources on doing that? 
That is a good question and the answer may be to look at the way Mailman 
3 development is currently being handled. Also Mark Sapiro clearly wants 
us to put our support behind Mailman 3 which is good and he has my 
support with that.


3. Mailman 2 doesn't integrate well with other applications due to no 
REST api which I think is what modern users want these days. Mailman 3 
has a REST api which is great but again I am having issues with the way 
Mailman 3 is being developed.


4. So lovers/users of Mailman are stuck between a rock and hard place: 
Mailman 2 or Mailman 3? Which way to go?


For me, Mailman 3 is the way to go but I can no longer wait on the two 
interfaces of Mailman 3 to be brought to modern standards. 
Postorius/Hyperkitty came out flawed right from the beginning:


1. Outdated U.I.

2. All of Mailman Core features/functions not being revealed in 
Postorius. This is something I intend to fix quickly with the new U.I. 
as soon as I figure out what those features/functions are. Anyone want 
to provide a list of that to me off-list so I can pass it on to my 
programmer?


3. The decision to use Django. Maybe great for Python users but not for 
me and perhaps for others. This is also brings additional confusion. 
Mailman 3 has THREE interfaces: Postorius, Hyperkitty, and the Django 
admin interface.


4. Very poor documentation for Mailman 3 and way too many methods of 
installing it which means all kinds of versions of Mailman 3 are in 
production today because Mailman versions are dependent upon what method 
of installation a person chooses: Distro Package, Docker, Source, others?


5. MM3 DMARC handling seems to have improved from reviews I have seen 
but NO BOUNCE PROCESSING. My goodness. How do list managers keep their 
mailing lists clean? I know how much a hit to an IP address reputation 
can be done when a server is sending messages out to invalid email 
addresses. However I don't think I can fix that right? It is a Mailman 
core issue? So let's say it does get added to MM Core. How long will it 
show up in Postorius? Especially since not every feature in MM Core is 
revealed in Postorius already.


6. Social Media integration via Django is awful.

7. Hyperkitty just does not cut it in appearance and usability when it 
comes to a modern list forum. I am simply unable to compete with the 
growing number of applications that are being offered that has a better 
browser UI for communicating with list members.


I think the highest priority is to get Mailman 3 core up to speed in 
offering everything that Mailman 2 offers such as bounce processing. 
Then perhaps a whole new approach to interfacing with Mailman 3 core is 
in order. That part I have decided to work on because no matter how 
great MM3 core is, if the interfaces are poor then modern users will 
move on to something else.


I hope I did not offend anyone here or show disrespect to the hours and 
hours that have been spent on the Mailman 3 project. That was never my 
intention and I love Mailman and its community of users.


I would be interested to know if the developers of Mailman 3 are 
interested in the initiative I have taken to develop new interfaces for 
Mailman 3 that are more modernized and user-friendly.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] The last release from the GNU Mailman project

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/27/20 2:44 PM, Mark Sapiro wrote:

If you want to port Mailman 2 to Python 3, you are welcome to do it. I
have said before that a much better use of time and resources would be
the implementation of a light weight, non-Django web UI for Mailman 3,
but I don't see anyone raising a hand to do either.


I am doing that. I have hired a programmer and work beings for a new 
Mailman 3 UI next week.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Membership List Include Legend Link Wrong

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/25/20 5:36 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:

The link to include legend on the membership management page is:

http://localhost.localdomain/mailman/admin/rushtalk/members/list?legend=yes

Why is that not defaulting to the real host and how do I fix it? TIA.


Have you tried running:

/mailman_installation_directory/bin/withlist -l -r fix_url listname -u 
listdomain


for the list to see if that fixes the issue?

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Archives Permission Denied

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/25/20 5:49 AM, Dennis Putnam wrote:

IOError: [Errno 13] Permission denied:
'/var/lib/mailman/archives/private/rushtalk/2020-February.txt'

  I ran check_perms and it found no issues. However, when I look at the
ownership of the archives I get this:

-rw-r--r--.    1 root mailman   72404 Feb 16 14:26 2020-February.txt

Shouldn't either the owner be mailman or permissions be -rw-rw-r--? TIA.


Hi Dennis,

I hope you are doing well.

From what I am seeing with my own servers, the permissions should be 664.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Fw: Mailman on TMDHosting.com

[Brian Carpenter]

On 2/1/20 12:59 PM, Tim H via Mailman-Users wrote:

  I just now realized my replies were not going to the list.  My bad!
- Forwarded Message - From: Tim H To: Mark Sapiro 
Sent: Friday, January 31, 2020, 05:51:03 PM ESTSubject: Re: 
[Mailman-Users] Mailman on TMDHosting.com
   On Friday, January 31, 2020, 12:43:39 PM EST, Mark Sapiro  
wrote:
  
  On 1/30/20 9:03 PM, Tim H via Mailman-Users wrote:

   I just moved a cluster of domains to TMDHosting.com
I had two Mailman mailing lists on the old service.  I made a gziped tarball of 
the entire account using the usual tool. Staff at TMD brought it over and in 
minutes all my files were in place.
But. They do not have Mailman in cPanel.


As far as I know, every cPanel installation has Mailman 2.1.

The issue may be that they just dropped your files into somewhere in
/usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty/mailman. You can't just do that. cPanel's
Mailman is different enough that the config.pck files aren't directly
compatible and the file names and or locations maybe different to.

See <https://wiki.list.org/x/4030641>.
I searched my entire file set for "mailman" and came up empty. I don't have a 
path that looks like /usr/loca/cpanelI have /home/(myaccountID), with public_html, 
public_ftp,  and the usual folders.  I have Hidden Files turned on. I can see a number of 
folder with dot as the first character in the name (.cpanel, .qidb, .spamassassin, etc.)
I thought all cPanel installations came with Mailman.  Maybe something happened 
and it isn't the case since some later version.
I have paper_lantern on cPanel Version 84.0 (build 21)
The service I came from had cPanel Version 70.0 (build 69)
I will go look around on the cPanel docs site and see what I can see.

Thanks,
Tim
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All cPanel servers come with Mailman preinstalled. However the host can 
disable their clients from accessing Mailman via WHM (Webhost Manager). 
So Mailman is there but you won't be able to use it unless your hosting 
chooses to enable it.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman on TMDHosting.com

[Brian Carpenter]

On 1/31/20 12:03 AM, Tim H via Mailman-Users wrote:

  I just moved a cluster of domains to TMDHosting.com
I had two Mailman mailing lists on the old service.  I made a gziped tarball of 
the entire account using the usual tool. Staff at TMD brought it over and in 
minutes all my files were in place.
But. They do not have Mailman in cPanel. They do not have Mailman available in 
Softalicious.  This is a shared hosting type of account.  I don't have root 
access to the server.
Their suggestion was to create an email address the same as the mailing list 
address, then use that to set up BCC to a group of contacts in Roundcube.
So I tried to create mymailingl...@mydomain.com
I could not create the address. Instead I got an error message saying a mailing 
list with that address already exists.
But the address does not show up in the list of email addresses in cPanel, so, 
I cannot delete it.
I didn't think about the Mailman mailing lists when I set up to do the 
transfer.  I took the time to save the member lists and some of the archives, 
but I should have gone ahead and deleted the lists. I did not suspect that the 
new service would not have Mailman.  Every web service provider I've been with 
in years and years has had Mailman.
So - what now?  Anyone on TMDHosting?  Have you been where I just landed?
Thanks.
Tim
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Hi Tim,

Screenshots of what you are seeing would be helpful. Are you sure 
Mailman is not accessible via cPanel? They are under Mailing Lists in 
the Email section of cPanel. Mailing lists and email accounts are 
treated as separate services on a cPanel server. Also Mailman is not 
available via Softaculous.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Avoiding mangling in Mailman 3?

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Allan,

I have successfully installed Mailman 3 on 4 servers now. Please contact me off 
list if you are interested in my installation service.

Thanks,
Brian Carpenter 

> On Dec 7, 2019, at 12:17 AM, Allan Hansen  wrote:
> 
> All,
> 
> One of my main gripes is the From: mangling that we had to use to allow AOL 
> and Yahoo subscribers to send messages without messing everyone else up. I 
> have now been informed that Mailman 3 does not solve this problem, but I’d 
> like to move to Mailman 3 anyway. So what to do?
> 
> How about this:
> 
> 1. Replace the From: address with a no-reply address on the list server. 
> Don’t add the sender’s address in quotes.
> 2. Keep the ‘Reply-To:’ address as the sender’s address (that’s what I have 
> it set to now - I don’t want people to reply to the lists).
> 3. Put HTML mailto: links for ‘Reply to Sender’ and Reply to List’ at the 
> bottom of the message.
> 
> 
> My other solution:
> 
> Require subscribers from AOL/Yahoo and whichever other service with the same 
> misguided policy to get another email address for the lists.
> 
> 
> Is there anyone on this who will be willing to help installing Mailman 3 for 
> me on a Linux system. I have tried and I have had two experts try as well, 
> but we have all run into difficulty. I’ll pay, of course.
> 
> Yours,
> 
>Allan Hansen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Edit automated responses

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/22/19 6:55 AM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

Hi all

I have a list which uses Mailman 2.1.27 running on cPanel 78.0.44.

The list has a size limit for the contributions (max_message_size).

When a user sends a message which exceeds the limit, he receives a message that 
his contribution will either need approval of a moderator or be deleted.

Can this message be edited so that the user is informed that his contribution 
is deleted (so not to mention the possibility of a moderator approval)?

And is it possible to "auto-delete" contributions exceeding the size limit - 
without the interaction of a moderator?

Thank you, Christian


Hi Christian,

I believe the template that governs that message is the postheld.txt. It 
seems to be a generic template that is used for any post that is held 
for any reason. You can access this template via your list admin 
interface and it is called "User notice of held post". To access it 
click on the "Edit the public HTML pages and text files" link in your 
list admin interface.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman with Interworx server administration

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/4/19 5:24 PM, Christian F Buser via Mailman-Users wrote:

Hi all

Our hosting provider writes that he wants to change from cPanel to 
Interworx.


At present, we have our virtual server on cPanel version 78.0.41, 
which includes Mailman version 2.1.27.


I found a comparison of the two environments on this page 
<https://www.hostdime.com/kb/hd/interworx/interworx-for-cpanel-administrators-and-resellers> 
stating



Important Differences:
...
cPanel supports PostgreSQL, Mailman mailing lists, NodeJS, 
server-side Java, Ruby on Rails and the DNSSEC protocol, but 
InterWorx does not support those things at this time.

However our provider thinks that Mailman could also be installed there.

Does anybody have (positive or negative) experience with Interworx?

Thank you, Christian


Hi Christian,

Interworx is bought out by LiquidWeb. LiquidWeb is a large hosting 
provider that is abandoning cPanel due to cPanel's price increase in 
September. I doubt your current provider will be able to get Mailman 
installed since cPanel did all the heavy lifting in getting Mailman 2 to 
run on a server. Most webhosts have very little experience with Mailman 
2. Please see our blog article at:


https://www.emwd.com/cpanel-refugee-hosting/

If you want to stay with cPanel/Mailman then I like to invite you to 
consider us. However if you want to stay with your current provider, 
then please visit our Mailman hosting service at 
https://www.mailmanhost.com. We run the latest version of Mailman out 
side of our cPanel servers.


One thing cPanel has that is really nice for list admins is their track 
delivery tool for troubleshooting bounces to list members.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] user unsubscribe

[Brian Carpenter]

On 11/3/19 7:08 AM, Richard Damon wrote:

On 11/3/19 6:05 AM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

On 2 Nov 2019 at 21:23, Mark Sapiro wrote:


On 11/2/19 5:03 PM, Bernie Cosell wrote:

...  Here's the
message i got.. no reason why:

  Subject: NPL-Folk unsubscribe notification
From: mailman-boun...@lists.puzzlers.org
To: npl-folk-ow...@lists.puzzlers.org
Date: Mon, 28 Oct 2019 22:24:21 -0700
Sender: "NPL-Folk" 

dear...@hotmail.com has been removed from NPL-Folk.

This is the generic unsubscribe notification from the list's
.ApprovedDeleteMember method. Starting with Mailman 2.1.27, it also
reported the source of the unsubscribe. The source is reported in the
entry in Mailman's subscribe log if you have access to that.

Nope.  I have no access to that and I just got another "has been removed"
message this morning.   Is there any way for a non-privileged mailman admin to
figure out why?   I didn't get any "bounce score incremented" messages for 
either
unsubscribe.

   /Bernie\

 Bernie Cosell
ber...@fantasyfarm.com
-- Too many people; too few sheep --


Its possible that your hosting service has disabled the option to
require approval to unsubscribe


Hi Bernie,

Did you check to see if notifications were enabled on your bounce 
processing page? You can contact your hosting provider to have them look 
into their mail logs to see why those email addresses are bouncing list 
messages.


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Re: [Mailman-Users] No archive files but 2 lists taking up 50MB in cPanel?

[Brian Carpenter]

On 10/3/19 1:21 PM, Tom Corcoran wrote:

Thanks Brian!

That's great to have that confirmed :-)

*But*, the mystery for me is if archives are turned off how are the
attachments saved. Is there another setting? If not, surely one should be
added so this unnecessary support request is not needed?

I may have done my isp a disservice. I had a separate request (no resolved)
re mailman auto discarding and I think that was the one the were pointing
me elsewhere for.


On Thu, 3 Oct 2019 at 18:09, Brian Carpenter  wrote:


Hi Tom,

I have provided Mailman hosting via cPanel for many years now. I
apologize for not responding earlier to your request. I know exactly
what is taking up that space: attachments. Mailman takes message
attachments and stores them in an attachment directory that is part of
the Mailman file structure. This directory cannot be access via a normal
cPanel user. It requires root access. We have clients who from time to
time ask us to reduce their disk usage by clearing out their attachment
directory which we are happy to do.

Personally I would like invite you to check us out at https://emwd.com
as I think your host did you wrong when they said they would not support
a 3rd party. If they are a cPanel host then Mailman is part of cPanel
and therefore should be supported.

Attachments still accumulate even with archiving turned off. I believe 
you have to enable content filtering to filter them out.


Your host still should have purged those attachments for you.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] No archive files but 2 lists taking up 50MB in cPanel?

[Brian Carpenter]

On 10/3/19 12:07 PM, Bryan Teague wrote:

Tom,

It isn’t that Mark is being unhelpful, it is that cpanel doess some … odd 
things with the packages that they bring into their ecosystem.  Most of the 
people on the mailman list are system admins, or at the very least, people who 
have command line access to the servers that run their mailman installations.

When I was running mailman lists through cPanel,  I found the cpanel forums to 
be  a great help, along with the documentation and information found on the 
support site for cpanel.  (Both of those links are contained in the second 
paragraph of the page for your convenience I included them here)

http://forums.cpanel.net/ <http://forums.cpanel.net/>

http://support.cpanel.net/ <http://support.cpanel.net/>

As to your specific problem of the private archives this is what I found when I 
looked at one of my cpanel installations:

https://documentation.cpanel.net/display/82Docs/Mailing+Lists
https://documentation.cpanel.net/display/82Docs/Archive

Hope this helps to clarify the issues for you.

Bryan Teague
Senior Web Administrator,
Library and Web Services
Information Technology Services
Maher Hall 196
5998 Alcalá Park
San Diego, CA 92110-2492
Work: 619.260.7842
Cell: 619.321.7288
bry...@sandiego.edu‌


On Oct 3, 2019, at 8:47 AM, Tom Corcoran  wrote:

I came to this group as my isp said they would not support a 3rd party.

I'm confused, Mark. I printed out the link you sent me but I was
dumbfounded when I read through it now that there was nothing about
clearing out the 50MB and an unhelpful page more or less telling people to
leave the group alone :-(

Would someone on this group willing to try and help me retrieve my precious
50MB?

Thanks!

On Tue, 1 Oct 2019 at 19:30, Mark Sapiro  wrote:


On 10/1/19 8:17 AM, Tom Corcoran wrote:

I don't have command line access to my cPanel - just FileManager.

How do I find out what these 50+MB are being used for and how do  I

recover

the 50+MB?

See the FAQ at <https://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20and%20CPanel>.



Hi Tom,

I have provided Mailman hosting via cPanel for many years now. I 
apologize for not responding earlier to your request. I know exactly 
what is taking up that space: attachments. Mailman takes message 
attachments and stores them in an attachment directory that is part of 
the Mailman file structure. This directory cannot be access via a normal 
cPanel user. It requires root access. We have clients who from time to 
time ask us to reduce their disk usage by clearing out their attachment 
directory which we are happy to do.


Personally I would like invite you to check us out at https://emwd.com 
as I think your host did you wrong when they said they would not support 
a 3rd party. If they are a cPanel host then Mailman is part of cPanel 
and therefore should be supported.


--
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Veronica,

What hosting service/platform are you using for your discussion list? Are
you noticing delays with the same ISPs or does it vary by ISP? I would reach
out to your hosting provider and then let know of 3 list members that are
experiencing consistent delays and they should be able to review their mail
log. If you are on cPanel then you can use the track delivery tool to see
what is happening with those list members that are experiencing the longest
delays.

Have a great day!

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
br...@emwd.com

-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users  On
Behalf Of Veronica Morris
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 10:00 AM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed

I run an active discussion group.  Messages come and go from people all
hours of the day.

For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of
order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!

The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone.  Some
people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get
that message in an hour, and others in a day.

Most of our users use gmail.

What can we do to fix this?  As ours is a discussion group, timing is
pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by
people not having read previous messages.

Thank you!

Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin)
Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005
President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners
veron...@psych.dog
https://www.psychdogpartners.org
http://www.doctorv.xyz
https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris
https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed

[Brian Carpenter]

Only your hosting provider can view those.

 

Have a great day!

 

Brian Carpenter

EMWD.com

br...@emwd.com

 

From: Veronica Morris  
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:50 PM
To: Brian Carpenter 
Cc: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed

 

How do I see mail logs?

 

Sorry to be so dense!

 

Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin)

Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005

  President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners
veron...@psych.dog <mailto:veron...@psych.dog> 

https://www.psychdogpartners.org

http://www.doctorv.xyz
https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris

https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:39 PM Brian Carpenter mailto:br...@emwd.com> > wrote:

You should be seeing almost instaneous deliveries with Gmail. The mail logs 
will show what’s going on. I know Dreamhost doesn’t use cPanel but I am not 
sure what mail server they us. I know Exim has some settings that can interfere 
with the timely deliveries of messages.

 

Have a great day!

 

Brian Carpenter

EMWD.com

br...@emwd.com <mailto:br...@emwd.com> 

 

From: Veronica Morris mailto:veronica.m.p...@gmail.com> > 
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 12:35 PM
To: Brian Carpenter mailto:br...@emwd.com> >
Cc: mailman-users@python.org <mailto:mailman-users@python.org> 
Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed

 

I am using dreamhost.

 

Almost all of the people on the listserv use gmail.  I have asked if people 
with other email addresses experience the same problem, but no one has replied. 
 

 

Is that what you mean by ISP?  

 

Sorry I am very new to this type of thing!  I have no experience with computers!

 

I will contact Dreamhost, that is an excellent idea!

 

Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin)

Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005

  President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners
veron...@psych.dog <mailto:veron...@psych.dog> 

https://www.psychdogpartners.org

http://www.doctorv.xyz
https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris

https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris

 

 

 

 

On Fri, Sep 13, 2019 at 12:30 PM Brian Carpenter mailto:br...@emwd.com> > wrote:

Hi Veronica,

What hosting service/platform are you using for your discussion list? Are
you noticing delays with the same ISPs or does it vary by ISP? I would reach
out to your hosting provider and then let know of 3 list members that are
experiencing consistent delays and they should be able to review their mail
log. If you are on cPanel then you can use the track delivery tool to see
what is happening with those list members that are experiencing the longest
delays.

Have a great day!

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
br...@emwd.com <mailto:br...@emwd.com> 

-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users mailto:emwd@python.org> > On
Behalf Of Veronica Morris
Sent: Friday, September 13, 2019 10:00 AM
To: mailman-users@python.org <mailto:mailman-users@python.org> 
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Messages delivered out of order and delayed

I run an active discussion group.  Messages come and go from people all
hours of the day.

For the past few months, we've noticed that messages are arriving out of
order, and sometimes are delayed by hours or even a day!

The kicker is that the delivery issues are not the same for everyone.  Some
people will get a particular message immediately, while others will get
that message in an hour, and others in a day.

Most of our users use gmail.

What can we do to fix this?  As ours is a discussion group, timing is
pretty important so that the flow of the conversation isn't interrupted by
people not having read previous messages.

Thank you!

Veronica Morris PhD and Hestia SD (Japanese Chin)
Partnered with a psychiatric service dog since 2005
President of Psychiatric Service Dog Partners
veron...@psych.dog <mailto:veron...@psych.dog> 
https://www.psychdogpartners.org
http://www.doctorv.xyz
https://www.youtube.com/+VeronicaMorris
https://www.facebook.com/DrVeronicaMorris
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Transactional email services with Mailman

[Brian Carpenter]

-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users  On
Behalf Of Andrew Hodgson
Sent: Friday, March 22, 2019 8:15 AM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] Transactional email services with Mailman

Hi,

I am looking at using a transactional email service with Mailman as I am
having issues with outbound email to specific domains (mainly gmail) being
blocked and I don't send enough email out (around 2000-3000 a day) to get
good scores.

I remember we discussed this a few years ago but wanted to know current
opinions on this.  A lot of these change envelope info to get bounces pushed
through their systems so they can let the system know to stop sending emails
to the specific address, but I don't think these play nicely with Mailman.

Any recommendations?
Thanks.
Andrew.


Hi Andrew,

Have you consider using a hosting mailman service such as the one we
provide? We host most of our lists on shared servers (mailman only). All of
our shared mailman servers enjoy great IP reputations and high delivery
rates.

You can learn more at:

https://www.emwd.com/mailman-hosting/

Have a great day!

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
br...@emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] How to kill zombie pending moderator requests?

[Brian Carpenter]

Check the headers of the request to make sure it is not coming from your
older server. I run all of my clients' lists on cPanel servers and have done
hundreds of migrations from other servers. The times that clients' reported
phantom moderated notifications, all were coming from their previous server.

cPanel has great tools for monitoring list traffic btw. It is the main
reason why I run all of my 2.1 lists on cPanel servers.

Have a great day!

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com
br...@emwd.com

-Original Message-
From: Mailman-Users  On
Behalf Of Bill Cole
Sent: Friday, February 15, 2019 12:40 PM
To: mailman-users@python.org
Subject: [Mailman-Users] How to kill zombie pending moderator requests?

I recently migrated a set of Mailman lists from a standard 2.1.18 
installation (on ancient RedHat) to a cPanel host (CentOS 7) running 
Mailman 2.1.27. One glitch in that migration involves a pending 
moderation issue, which ultimately does not need to be dealt with 
because it was just spam to the list address from a non-member. Due to 
some flaw in my migration process (probably related to cPanel's list 
name mangling) the daily pending request reminder script is sending the 
moderator a reminder of the issue, however the issue is not visible in 
the web UI.

The pending.pck file for the list has this unilluminating content:

# ../../bin/dumpdb pending.pck
[- start pickle file -]
<- start object 1 ->
{   'evictions': {   'fe643c3a29afd79686e7ee0578f83b2fa2ae1eba': 
1550223270.461477},
 'fe643c3a29afd79686e7ee0578f83b2fa2ae1eba': ('H', 2440),
 'version': 2}
[- end pickle file -]


Python is not a language I use much so I'm not sure what the daily 
'checkdbs' script is seeing that makes it think there's a pending issue 
or what exactly the contents of that pending.pck means, although I 
expect it is relevant. The other 3 lists that were migrated in the same 
way at the same time which did not have pending issues have similar 
pending.pck contents but DO NOT generate the phantom notifications.

My first impulse is to just clobber the pending.pck file, but I am not 
sure if that is safe. Advice would be greatly appreciated.


-- 
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b...@scconsult.com or billc...@apache.org
(AKA @grumpybozo and many *@billmail.scconsult.com addresses)
Available For Hire: https://linkedin.com/in/billcole


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Re: [Mailman-Users] incorrect spam labelling

[Brian Carpenter]

> Not sure if this is a mailman issue, but…
> 
> Occasionally as moderator I see messages in which "***SPAM*** “ has been
> prepended to the subject line.
> The messages are not spam.
> I do not want to send them out to the list like that but cannot edit the 
> subject
> line.
> Is there anything I can do?
> 
> -Andrew

That is not Mailman. It is most likely coming from Spamassassin. Is your 
mailman list on a cPanel server?

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Now offering Mailman 3 list hosting!
https://mailman3host.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing

[Brian Carpenter]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users  bounces+brian=emwd@python.org> On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
> Sent: Saturday, January 19, 2019 10:22 PM
> To: mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce processing
> 
> On 1/19/19 2:41 PM, Kenneth G. Gordon wrote:
> > Over the past several weeks, I have received many reports from Mailman
> concerning too
> > many bounces from certain subscribers who are normally very active on
> one of my forums.
> >
> > All of these "Bounce Action Notification"'s appear to be coming from
only
> a very few ISPs,
> > the big one being AOL, although also verizon.com is another one. In the
> past, gmail.com,
> > and hotmail.com have been a culprits.


I believe AOL and Verizon are under Yahoo now. All of them have DMARC
records that will cause bounces if you don't have your DMARC settings set
correctly. What do you have the "Action to take when anyone posts to the
list from a domain with a DMARC Reject/Quarantine Policy." setting set to on
the Privacy options --> Sender filters page?

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 





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Re: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into cPanel installation?

[Brian Carpenter]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users  bounces+brian=emwd@python.org> On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
> Sent: Tuesday, January 15, 2019 6:04 PM
> To: mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into
> cPanel installation?
> 
> On 1/15/19 7:44 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> >
> > If the host is willing to move your archives then they can do the same
for
> > your lists. This is what you do:
> >
> > 1. Log into cPanel
> >
> > 2. Create the lists that you are migrating over.
> >
> I may be wrong because Brian knows more about cPanel than I do, and I
> don't know what /scripts/fixmailinglistperms does, but I see an issue
> with the above.
> 
> Namely, if the backups don't come from cPanel, the list's _internal_name
> in the backup won't have the _domain appendage that cPanel list's have
> and if the new domain is not the old one, the list's web_page_url will
> have the wrong domain name. Also, the list's host_name may be wrong, but
> that can be fixed via the Mailman web UI, but without a correct
> web_page_url, none of the web form submissions will work.
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

That is why you first create the lists via the cPanel interface. Overwriting
the contents of the list directory with the backups will not interfere with
cPanel's list naming approach if those lists were first created by cPanel.

I am assuming the list domain is still the same. If it is not then the host
of the server has some more work to do but you can still migrate them over
to the new domain fairly easy. I do it all the time using the fix_url
script.

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com



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Re: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into cPanel installation?

[Brian Carpenter]

> Thank you (and to Brian Carpenter for his separate reply). I do not have
> access to the /usr/local/cpanel/3rdparty directory myself. However, the
> hosting provider has said that they can put the archives in the right
location
> here; the hard thing is, as you say, getting the lists themselves in
place.
> Rather than trying something that's probably impossible with the access I
> have, I'll just redo the lists manually and then get the archives set.
> 
> I do hope this goes OK; I feel like it would have been relatively
> straightforward if I were using a dedicated server instead of a shared
system,
> but I'm getting this set up for someone with no computer skills, and they
> need something like a shared, supported environment with something like
> cPanel for when I'm not around to maintain it.

If the host is willing to move your archives then they can do the same for
your lists. This is what you do:

1. Log into cPanel

2. Create the lists that you are migrating over.

3. Contact the host and ask them to overwrite those list directories that
cPanel created with your back ups. It takes a few minutes to do that. Make
sure they run /scripts/fixmailinglistperms on each list after they do that.


Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com
www.mailmanhost.com
www.mailman3host.com


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into cPanel installation?

[Brian Carpenter]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users  bounces+brian=emwd@python.org> On Behalf Of Jesse Sheidlower
> Sent: Monday, January 14, 2019 7:03 AM
> To: mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Restoring manually backed-up archives into cPanel
> installation?
> 
> 
> I'm trying to migrate a group of Mailman lists onto a new shared hosting
> provider. I do not have direct access to the original system; the sysadmin
> there has given me a full tarball of the mailman directory, including the
> archives/, data/, and lists/ subdirectories.
> 
> The new hosting provider, to which I do have command-line access via SSH,
> uses Mailman through a cPanel installation. There's no mailman directory
> currently, and cPanel itself doesn't have any options for migration. I
e-mailed
> the support group to ask where to put it, and they said that you can only
> restore a backup that is itself made with cPanel into a cPanel
environment;
> the cPanel version of mailman is different and won't accept backups made
> manually.
> 
> Is this true? I've Googled what I can, but haven't found anything that
> addresses this. If I can't restore the list archives, I'll need to find a
different
> hosting provider, and it hasn't been easy to find one that meets my
> otherwise very simple needs.

Hi Jesse,

Those files need to go into the backend of the server which is beyond the
reach of a cPanel shared hosting account. The server admin would have to do
that for you. As long as the backup of the files are version 2.1.* they
should migrate fine. Contact me off list if you can't get this resolved.

Brian Carpenter
Mailmanhost.com  :^)

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Repeating Outgoing Messages

[Brian Carpenter]

> 
> OK, but that still doesn't answer why the messages are being continually
> retried for weeks rather than being retried once in 15 minutes for 5 days.
> 
> What's in Mailman's error log?
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

Nothing in the error log that pertains to the issue. It does seem to only
happen if the post is coming from a Gmail user.

Brian

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Repeating Outgoing Messages

[Brian Carpenter]

> On 6/10/18 11:21 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> >
> > I have a strange issue that has been occurring for the last 2 weeks. One
of
> > our mailman servers continues to have 4-5 messages stuck in the
qfiles/out
> > folder. These messages are being removed and then readded to the folder.
> The
> > same messages over and over and over. It is causing significant I/O
usage. I
> > have to stop the mailman server and then manually remove the messages.
> They
> > are coming from one list via different members. I checked the list
archives
> > and there is only one copy of each message listed in the archive and
they
> > are not being resent to list members. It's just that these 4/5 messages
are
> > being removed and then rewritten to the qfiles/out folder over and over.
> > Suggestions?
> 
> 
> My first guess is they are outgoing messages that have encountered some
> 'retryable' SMTP error on one or more recipients and are being retried.
> 
> Normally, they would only be retried every 15 minutes, but possibly this
> is occurring more often for some reason.
> 
> Are there entries in qfiles/retry?
> What is logged in Mailman's smtp-failure log?
> What does Mailman's bin/dumpdb show on the .pck (or maybe .bak - need a
> -p option for that) files in qfiles/out and qfiles/retry? Look
> particularly at the second object from dumpdb - bin/show-qfiles doesn't
> show that.
> 
> What does the MTA say about these?
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan

I think I found the problem. Several of those members had periods at the end
of their email addresses.

Brian

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Repeating Outgoing Messages

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Mark,

There are no entries in the qfiles/retry folder. There are entries in the
smtp-failure log. It seems the outgoing post is not being sent to the recips
(8) listed in the transaction though the post is being sent to the rest of
the list members. There are no log entries for those 8 in the exim_mainlog
file which is the outgoing MTA but there are corresponding entries for the
rest of the list members. Here is what the entry in the smtp-failure log is
showing:

Jun 10 18:20:34 2018 (16020) Low level smtp error: Connection unexpectedly
closed, msgid: 
Jun 10 18:20:34 2018 (16020) delivery to *@* failed with code -1:
Connection unexpectedly closed

The last line is repeated for each address in the transaction.

The transaction is being re-tried every 2-3 seconds.

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 



> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users  bounces+brian=emwd@python.org> On Behalf Of Mark Sapiro
> Sent: Sunday, June 10, 2018 5:29 PM
> To: mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Repeating Outgoing Messages
> 
> On 6/10/18 11:21 AM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> >
> > I have a strange issue that has been occurring for the last 2 weeks. One
of
> > our mailman servers continues to have 4-5 messages stuck in the
qfiles/out
> > folder. These messages are being removed and then readded to the folder.
> The
> > same messages over and over and over. It is causing significant I/O
usage. I
> > have to stop the mailman server and then manually remove the messages.
> They
> > are coming from one list via different members. I checked the list
archives
> > and there is only one copy of each message listed in the archive and
they
> > are not being resent to list members. It's just that these 4/5 messages
are
> > being removed and then rewritten to the qfiles/out folder over and over.
> > Suggestions?
> 
> 
> My first guess is they are outgoing messages that have encountered some
> 'retryable' SMTP error on one or more recipients and are being retried.
> 
> Normally, they would only be retried every 15 minutes, but possibly this
> is occurring more often for some reason.
> 
> Are there entries in qfiles/retry?
> What is logged in Mailman's smtp-failure log?
> What does Mailman's bin/dumpdb show on the .pck (or maybe .bak - need a
> -p option for that) files in qfiles/out and qfiles/retry? Look
> particularly at the second object from dumpdb - bin/show-qfiles doesn't
> show that.
> 
> What does the MTA say about these?
> 
> --
> Mark Sapiro The highway is for gamblers,
> San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
> --
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
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> users%40python.org/
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> users/brian%40emwd.com

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[Mailman-Users] Repeating Outgoing Messages

[Brian Carpenter]

Dear Mailman Community,

 

I have a strange issue that has been occurring for the last 2 weeks. One of
our mailman servers continues to have 4-5 messages stuck in the qfiles/out
folder. These messages are being removed and then readded to the folder. The
same messages over and over and over. It is causing significant I/O usage. I
have to stop the mailman server and then manually remove the messages. They
are coming from one list via different members. I checked the list archives
and there is only one copy of each message listed in the archive and they
are not being resent to list members. It's just that these 4/5 messages are
being removed and then rewritten to the qfiles/out folder over and over.
Suggestions?

 



 

Brian Carpenter
Owner



Providing Mailman Hosting and more for over 15 years.


T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com <http://www.emwd.com> 

www.mailmanhost.com <http://www.mailmanhost.com> 

 

 

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<http://www.linkedin.com/in/brianemwd> 



 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Spam Subscriptions

[Brian Carpenter]

> I have a mailman installation with over 300 lists. It is cPanel, but
> I am the administrator so have access to command line etc.
> 
> I have just two lists that receive a bunch of spam subscribes each
> day -- hundreds of them, in fact. For some reason -- which is good,
> they are held, so don't go through, not quite sure why.  Two
> questions -- first is there a file I can erase for each list that
> will get rid of all the held subscriptions, without breaking anything
> else.  I tried once, and my installation broke -- don't know if it is
> related, but don't want to try again unless I do it right.
> 
> Secondly, there is some commonality in the subscribe addresses, are
> there strings I can use to discard the subscribes so I never have to see
them.
> 
> Below are examples, there is a common word, or a common word, a
> period ., and another common word, then a plus sign + then a 4 5 or 6
> character word, all alpha, and @gmail.com
> Here are examples:
> 
> 
> dragonommz+
> jwmidnight+
> nommz.naidoo+
> 
> 
> If I could knock these out, it would be helpful.  This has happened
> several times previously, but has always stopped after a few weeks.
> This time it has been a couple months.
> 
> Finally, I know it is probably too late in the Mailman2 cycle to get
> a new feature, but in the web UI, it would be nice if you could
> delete all deferred subscriptions.  You can do so with deferred
> messages, that are held, but not subscriptions.
> 
> Thanks!
> 
> Dave

Hey Dave,

If  you are using cPanel then running some Exim filters may be a better
approach to handling this subscription problem. We get tons of spam from
China via two domains and Exim is great at filtering them out.


Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] change links in mail footer to https

[Brian Carpenter]

> users/brian%40emwd.com

Well let's not give all hosting providers a black eye. We run all kinds of 
admin tasks on behalf of our mailman clients. As for using SSL, it is time 
consuming moving a large number of lists on various domains to use SSL. We run 
our mailman lists on cPanel servers with the default http setup. Since there is 
a growing demand for SSL connections we are moving our clients to use SSL. We 
already offer free SSL certificates so this move fits quite well with that.

The problem with shell access and mailman, is that mailman server changes 
requires root access and what ever changes are made to the mailman server 
itself impacts all mailing lists. So those of you who use mailman on a shared 
hosting environment should never be given shell access to mailman. 

I do not agree that mailman users need or require shell access. What is being 
asked here in regards to SSL is at this moment a preference not a need. Perhaps 
the developers of the MM 2.1 branch can add some additional functionality to 
the mailman list admin interface to turn on or off SSL connections. I know you 
can do this with WordPress quite easily. Another path is make a feature request 
with cPanel, Inc. to add some sort of function to add SSL functionality to 
Mailman lists.


Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud and Mailman Services and more for over 15 years.

E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Looking for better servicess for mailing list

[Brian Carpenter]

> Hello all,
> 
> We are running two mailing lists with the host ultra.us for visually
> impaired people in India.
> Inicially ultra.us provided their support when we hired their services
> but they are not ready to respond even the tickets we have raised for
> the resolution now. Currently we are facing lot of problems and bugs
> but they are not fixing them.
> 
> I will appreciate if some other good and cost effective service
> provider can be suggested to me, so I can change the host and mailing
> list service provider for the smooth functioning of the mailing list.
> 
> Thanks,
> 
> Amit Bhatt

Hi Amit,

We are a mailman hosting provider and have been offering great support to
our list clients for over 10+ years. Our pricing is very reasonable and we
are able offer full migration assistance for your list configurations,
members, and archives. More details about our service can be found at:

https://www.emwd.com/mailman-hosting/

You can also find a list of mailman friendly hosts at:

https://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services

Feel free to contact me off-list if you have more questions.

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman Security

[Brian Carpenter]

> I have a situation which is a little confusing on a server where I run
> Mailman. The subscription model is "confirm & approve"
> 
> When I check the MTA's queue, I find hundreds of mail destined to certain
> addresses, and one address could have 10 or more same mail destined to it.
> I cleared the queue before checking the contents of these e-mails, but I
> assume they were those 'confirm your subscription' ones to these
addresses,
> because I can see the addresses in in Mailman's subscribe logfile.
> 
> Now this got me thinking: Once one has submitted a subscription request
and
> Mailman has dispatched the 'confirm' email, shouldn't mailman decline any
> further subscription requests from the same address if they decide to
> submit such, and as such shouldn't send any other confirm/verification
> requests as long as there is one still pending??
> 
> I am talking about a situation leading to a subscribe logfile like the one
> at: http://bit.ly/2iFv5vi
> 
> Might I be missing something in my list configuration???

Subscription spam which is what I think you are experiencing has been dealt
with to a certain degree by recent versions of mailman. The following two
functions I believe would be of assistance are:

SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET
GLOBAL_BAN_LIST

There is some detail information about them in Defaults.py I believe. 

Brian Carpenter
EMWD, Owner

Providing Cloud Services and Mailman hosting for over 18 years.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent trouble with DMARC Munging

[Brian Carpenter]

> The issues that have ired us are hosting services that appear to push
> customer service off on cPanel or (worse ;-) us, and perceived lack of
> cooperation from cPanel (I'm happy to say that era is long since past)
> when hosting services and end users were coming to us for cPanel issues.
> 
> I'm very happy to see providers like you and Brian[1] posting here,
> and cPanel responding to hosting service issues so fast, and I wish
> them -- and you! --
> 
>a cost-reducing, profit-increasing, service-improving New Year!
> 
> Steve

Amen!!!

In my experience, I have found cPanel to be very supportive of Mailman and
very responsive to their infrequent introduction of bugs, mistakes, breaking
things, and other errors common to men. 

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com Owner

Providing Cloud Services and Mailman Hosting for over 18 years.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent trouble with DMARC Munging

[Brian Carpenter]

> Lindsay Haisley writes:
> 
>  > I don't believe that the python DNS resolver module is a stock part of
>  > the python distribution.
> 
> It is not, as of 3.6.
> 
> --

cPanel has confirmed the bug and they are currently working on providing a
fix that will be pushed out in an update. Meanwhile they did provide me a
workaround that fixes the issue. Here is what they said related to the
reported bug:


##
Indeed, I've replicated this concern on our test servers and I see that the
location has changed in the latest RPM from python 2.6 to python 2.7.

As Cent7 provides python-dns, there is not a need to provide this package
for python 2.7 as the system provided python-dns library can be used. 

We provide cpanel-dnspython on Cent 6 systems as python-dns  is not
available. It appears that in the recent package, the installation has been
moved to /usr/lib64/python2.7 rather then the previous location of
/usr/lib/python2.6  or the expected location of /usr/lib64/python2.6. 

I've downgraded the installed cpanel-dnspython on a test server which then
allowed for the module to be located without issues
##

Hats off to Mark Sapiro and to his pinpoint super human laser accuracy to
identify the source of these problems that come up from time to time. 

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com, Owner

Providing Cloud Services and Mailman Hosting for over 15 years.

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent trouble with DMARC Munging

[Brian Carpenter]

> Thanks, Mark.  I'm opening a ticket with cPanel and will share the results
> with the group.  I appreciate you narrowing down the problem!
> 
> - Scott
> --

I opened a ticket a few hours ago. I also posted about this on the cPanel
forums as I am sure this has affected quite a bit of cPanel servers. 

FYI, cPanel is installed on Centos servers.


Brian Carpenter
www.emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent trouble with DMARC Munging

[Brian Carpenter]

> On 01/16/2017 12:05 PM, Brian Carpenter wrote:
> >
> > I would also be interested if anyone has any answers or suggestions to
this
> > as we have seen the same issue on our mailman servers.
> 
> 
> See
> <https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-users/2017-
> January/081821.html>.
> Follow the suggestions there and report what you find.
> 
> Is this issue coincident with a cPanel update?
> 
> 
> > Enabling the DMARC
> > option on the general options page seems to fix it however but I am not
> sure
> > in why this has suddenly become a problem with just using the privacy
> > options -- sender filters settings.
> 
> 
> The General Options from_is_list setting applies to all posts without
> checking the policy of the From: domain. It is something in the DMARC
> policy lookup that isn't working.

Thanks Mark. I am definitely seeing:

DNS lookup for dmarc_moderation_action for list  not available

in the error logs. I am thinking it is an issue with a cPanel update but I
do know if it was an update, it was a minor one. I have restarted Mailman to
see if that fixes the issues. I am currently awaiting the results from our
logs to see. Meanwhile I get the following when I run " python -c "import
dns.resolver":

Traceback (most recent call last):
  File "", line 1, in 
ImportError: No module named dns.resolver

Do I need to run that command in a certain directory?

Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com, Owner

Providing Cloud Services and Mailman hosting for over 15 years.
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 



Thanks,

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Recent trouble with DMARC Munging

[Brian Carpenter]

> I'm using Mailman version 2.1.23.  Since late 2014, I've been successfully
> using the "Munge From" option under Privacy Options > Sender filters >
> "Action to take when anyone posts to the list from a domain with a DMARC
> Reject/Quarantine Policy."  Mail from users using AOL, Yahoo and others
> with a DMARC policy of quarantine or reject had the FROM field munged:
> 
> FROM: John Doe <someu...@yahoo.com>
> 
> becomes
> 
> FROM: John Doe via Listname <listn...@ourdomain.com>
> 
> Again, this has been working GREAT for over two years.  Now, mysteriously,
> this has stopped working. When yahoo.com or AOL.com users post to our
> lists, the Munging is not working.  When I query for a DMARC record from
> the mail server, it can see the record, so I think it's not a resolver
> issue.
> 
> I'm really stumped... any pointers/ideas on where to look would be greatly
> appreciated!
> 
> - Scott

I would also be interested if anyone has any answers or suggestions to this
as we have seen the same issue on our mailman servers. Enabling the DMARC
option on the general options page seems to fix it however but I am not sure
in why this has suddenly become a problem with just using the privacy
options -- sender filters settings.


Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com, Owner

Providing Cloud Services and Mailman hosting for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 





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Re: [Mailman-Users] Time needed to deliver list messages

[Brian Carpenter]

> Hi all
> 
> Our lists run on a cPanel installation of Mailman (cPanel version 60.0.25,
> Mailman version 2.1.23). Messages sent to the list take some long time to
be
> delivered to the subscribers - in the best case it is about 10 minutes,
but it
> can take up to over 40 minutes.
> 
> We asked our provider about it, and he tried to finetune some settings on
the
> server - so far without success. He said he also contacted cPanel support
and
> their response was "this is normal - there is nothing they can do about
it", he
> said.
> 
> My question to all who run Mailman on cPanel: Is it true? Are you also
> experiencing delivery delays?

Hi Christian,

We run a mailman hosting service and none of our clients have any issues in
delivery. I suggest the first issue that may be causing the delay is your
messages are being queued instead of being delivered right away. On a
cPanel/Exim server, a high server load can cause messages to be queued. Also
Exim comes with some pre-set settings that can cause a busy mailman list's
messages to be queued:

smtp_accept_queue_per_connection
queue_only_load

Once a message is queued, there will be a delay in delivery as a result. The
settings we have come up with due to our past experience in Mailman hosting
has served our clients (and us!) very well. 


Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Mailman is not sending/receiving email

[Brian Carpenter]

> Mailman experts,
> 
> I have been managing a mailman list (hosted by Hostway) for over 10 years
> and have never had a problem until a few days ago.
> 
> I can get to the Admin page and everything looks fine. However mail is not
> being delivered. Sending mail to the list does not generate a bounce and
> the mail does not get into the Archive. New members can be added in the
> Admin page, but no notice goes out.
> 
> What are the most likely causes and how should I proceed. Btw, Hostway has
> not been a bit of help even though they charge me $15/month to run the
list!
> 
Hi Rod:

How do you know notices to new members are not being sent out? Did you test
this yourself? The first thing I would look at is to see if the email
address you are posting from has the necessary permissions set in your list
configuration options to post to the list. Have you checked the moderator's
queue to see if posts are being caught up there?

Brian
EMWD.com
Mailman hosting for 10+ years

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing

[Brian Carpenter]

> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Stephen J. Turnbull
> Sent: Wednesday, April 20, 2016 10:03 PM
> To: Richard Robbins 
> Cc: mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Bounce Processing
> 
> Richard Robbins writes:
> 
>  > I recently switched my mailman host to a new provider.  One of my
>  > users is now encountering problems that he hasn't had before.
> 
> Are you sure your list configuration is the same as before?
> 
>  > When he sends a message to a list an error message is generated
>  > that is in the following form:
> 
> This doesn't look like a problem Mailman itself can help solve, but
> you don't provide the information needed to decide.
> 
>  > From: Mail Delivery System 
>  > To: announce-boun...@usml.net
> 
> annou...@usml.net is your mailing list?
> 
> emwd.com is your new host?  (No direct experience, but they have been
> a good citizen on our lists, which gives me some confidence in his
> statements.)
> 
>  > This is a permanent error. The following address(es) failed:
>  >
>  >   [subscriber's email address appeared here and I deleted it]
> 
> The subscriber's address is at pphosted.com (from the name, most
> likely a virtual domain served by pphosted.com)?  Subscriber ==
> sender?  Do you get a pile of these for various senders, or only for
> subscriber == sender?
> 
>  > host mxa-00149702.gslb.pphosted.com [67.231.156.216]
>  > SMTP error from remote mail server after end of data:
>  > 550 5.7.0 You are not authorized to use our domain as a sender
address.
> 
> As your staff says, this could be an SPF issue, but why "mxa-00149702"
> believes your host is claiming to be a domain hosted by pphosted.com,
> I don't know.  Was your domain ("usml.net"?) formerly, or now partially,
> hosted at pphosted.com?
> 
> If your list hosting domain has never had any relation to
> pphosted.com, I would assume that this isn't based on SPF, but rather
> that the sender is the subscriber, and this is a policy rejection
> based on that fact (ie, the subscriber's host believes the mail is
> from a spammer pretending to be the subscriber).
> 
>  > Action: failed
>  > Final-Recipient: rfc822; [subscriber's email address appeared here and
I
>  > deleted it]
>  > Status: 5.0.0
>  > Remote-MTA: dns; mxa-00149702.gslb.pphosted.com
>  > Diagnostic-Code: smtp; 550 5.7.0 You are not authorized to use our
domain
>  > as a sender address.
>  >
>  > When I asked my host about this I was told that this is an SPF
>  > configuration issue and that the sender needs to adjust relevant
>  > DNS records.
> 
> Could be, I guess.  I would guess a misconfiguration of the receiving
> MTA (mail server).  I don't understand how a DNS misconfiguration of
> SPF would result in that status message, unless the receiver is also
> broken.
> 
> But SPF DNS reconfiguration shouldn't help Mailman mailing lists,
> because mailing lists are expected to fail in SPF.  Configuration of
> the receiving MTA would be more likely to help.
> 
>  > The subscriber spoke to his IT person who said that this appears to
>  > him to be a blacklist issue and that the host needs to make an
>  > adjustment.
> 
> Sounds to me like the IT person just doesn't want to be bothered.  I
> see no evidence of a blacklist in what you've posted, rather, pretty
> clearly the subscriber's host made the reject decision all by itself.
> If there was a blacklist, it's the subscriber's host that consulted
> it, and the IT person should be a lot more helpful about what the
> problem is.
> 
>  > Meanwhile, mailman has now removed the subscriber from the mailing list
> and
>  > I had to put him back on, but I assume he will be deleted soon.
>  >
>  > I'm not really sure what to do.
>  >
>  > Any advice on how to proceed?
> 
> Using one of the DMARC mitigation options (most popular is Privacy |
> Sender Filters | DMARC Moderation Action, set to "Munge From") may
> help.  I'd bet against it, but it's mostly harmless (list traffic will
> continue to be delivered to everybody, some people may complain about
> the awkward From header field from some posters), and easily reversed
> if you do get any complaints.
> 
> If the answers to the initial questions are all "yes" (except the last
> two, which I expect to be "no, only for this sender==subscriber", and
> "no, usml.net has no relation whatsoever to pphosted.com"), I strongly
> suspect that there is a problem at the subscriber's host (quite
> possibly in the IT person's head).  If the subscriber wants reliable
> mail service it's easiest to get another address (Gmail is easy; AOL
> and Yahoo! are deprecated because of their DMARC policies).
> 
> Steve
> --
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
> Mailman FAQ: http://wiki.list.org/x/AgA3
> Security 

Re: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce as undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)

[Brian Carpenter]

What version of Mailman are you using? The DMARC settings are found on the 
General Options and Sender Filters pages.



Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 




> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Woody Mon via
> Mailman-Users
> Sent: Friday, December 04, 2015 5:31 PM
> To: mailman-users@python.org
> Cc: mediamon2...@yahoo.com
> Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] List posts sent to AOL list subscribers bounce as
> undeliverable (v. 2.1.20)
> 
> FYI, I'm just using a Yahoo email account (via web interface) to post to the
> Mailman-users list. I don't use this account for much anything else.
> 
> All posts to the list in question are moderated and almost all are sent from a
> Mozilla Thunderbird email client.
> 
> And almost all subscribers (including AOL subscribers) are set for digest
> mode.
> 
> In the list mail the from line always shows the
> listn...@subdomain.domain1.org (not an individual email address or
> freemail domain)
> 
> How do I find these DMARC workarounds which you speak?
> 
> 
> On Fri, 12/4/15, John wrote:
> 
>  I see that you have a yahoo.com address.  If there's a yahoo.com address on
> the From: line of the list mail, AOL and Yahoo's well documented abuse of
> DMARC will cause the failure you're seeing.
> 
>  If you're running a recent version of Mailman, there are some DMARC
> workarounds you can use.  Other than that, I'd find a different address to
> mail from, not at Yahoo, not at AOL, and preferably not at Gmail.
> 
> --
> Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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> users%40python.org/
> Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
> users/brian%40emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Potential "Bounce" Question

[Brian Carpenter]

What version of Mailman are you using? It sounds like a DMARC issue going
on.



Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 



> -Original Message-
> From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
> bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Nancy C
> Sent: Wednesday, September 09, 2015 8:26 PM
> To: mailman-users@python.org
> Subject: [Mailman-Users] Potential "Bounce" Question
> 
> I am the admin for a group & some members frequently get warning
> messages
> like this:
> 
> 
> 
> "Your current bounce score is 3.0 out of a maximum of 5.0"
> 
> 
> 
> The subscriber has done nothing wrong & these messages are usually
> Hotmail,
> yahoo & aol accounts.
> 
> 
> 
> What can be done to reduce / eliminate these messages?
> 
> 
> 
> Thank you
> 
> Nancy
> 
> --
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> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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> users%40python.org/
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> users/brian%40emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] need assistance upgrading Mailman

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Nina:

I actually pointed you to our Cloud VPS service where we can setup Mailman
on it and assist you with the migration of your lists. With as many lists as
you have, our VPS service is for more affordable an option.



Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 



 -Original Message-
 From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
 bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Nina Nicholson
 Sent: Monday, August 24, 2015 12:51 PM
 To: mailman-users@python.org
 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] need assistance upgrading Mailman
 
 Thanks all for your quick replies.
 
 Duly noted: Mailman lists are not Listservs. Also, not all tissues are
Kleenex
 and not all adhesive tape is Scotch Tape -- but these copyrighted names
all
 tend to get used as generic terms. :)
 
 I have a dedicated virtual server with a shell login account and am
allowed to
 update it. Unfortunately, my Unix skills are minimal and not up to
attempting
 this on my own. I have managed other installations on my server when being
 walked through it, remotely, by an experienced person.
 
 I looked at pricing for http://www.emwd.com, and at $4.50 per month per
 list, with 70+ lists, this would cost us in excess of $3780/year. We're a
religious
 organization with the budget to match -- before I can get Diocesan Council
to
 approve that type of budget increase for something we've had for free up
 until now, I first have to convince them I've exhausted every other option
for
 fixing our current lists -- which means at least trying the update to see
if that
 helps.
 
 I'll look at the list of Mailman hosts to see if I can find something more
 affordable -- I would certainly love to outsource this task if I could --
but I'm
 still hoping to connect with someone who can assist me with the upgrade.
 
 Many thanks,
 Nina
 
 Nina Nicholson
 Director of Communications  Technology
 The Episcopal Diocese of Newark
 973-430-9907
 http://dioceseofnewark.org
 http://facebook.com/dionewark
 http://twitter.com/dionewark
 
 -Original Message-
 From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
 bounces+nnicholson=dioceseofnewark@python.org] On Behalf Of Mark
 Sapiro
 Sent: Sunday, August 23, 2015 9:02 PM
 To: mailman-users@python.org
 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] need assistance upgrading Mailman
 
 On 08/23/2015 04:45 PM, Nina Nicholson wrote:
  I manage 70+ Mailman listservs for the Episcopal Diocese of Newark, and
 we are having terrible problems with emails not being delivered because
 they fail DMARC Evaluation, to the point that it's disrupting
communications
 in the diocese.
 
 
 Please see http://wiki.list.org/DOC/Mailman%20is%20not%20Listserv
 
 
  Our listservs are hosted by MediaTemple which provides Mailman ver.
 2.1.9. I understand that if I were to upgrade to the latest version there
are
 new features that would solve this problem. I've found the upgrade
 instructions
 (http://wiki.list.org/DOC/4.80%20How%20do%20I%20upgrade%20from%20
 Mailman%202.1.x%20to%20a%20later%20Mailman%202.1.y%3F) but they are
 beyond my limited Unix skills. MediaTemple refuses to do the upgrade.
 
 
 Do you have a VPS with Mailman installed or are you on a shared host? If
the
 latter, it is unlikely that you have the access necessary to upgrade
Mailman
 on the host and it is unlikely that MediaTemple would be happy with your
 doing it even if you could.
 
 You may wish to see
 http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20hosting%20services. I have no
 information on most of these, but based on interactions with the
proprietor
 of EMWD and dotList, I can recommend them. This should not be construed
 as a negative review of anyone else on that list. It's just that I have no
basis
 to evaluate most of them.
 
 You may also find
 http://wiki.list.org/COM/Mailman%20consulting%20services of interest.
 Particularly the link to the Python jobs board.
 
 Finally, you may wish to try one of the suggestions at
 http://wiki.list.org/x/17891458 as an interim stopgap measure.
 
 --
 Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers,
 San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
 --
 Mailman-Users mailing list Mailman-Users@python.org
 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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 http://wiki.list.org/x/QIA9 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-
 archive.com/mailman-users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
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 Searchable Archives: http://www.mail-archive.com/mailman-
 users%40python.org/
 Unsubscribe: https

[Mailman-Users] Subscription Spam

[Brian Carpenter]

Hello My Fellow Mailman Users:

 

Subscription spam is starting to become an issue with some of our mailing
lists. Am I correct that the SUBSCRIBE_FORM_SECRET setting will help reduce
the amount of subscription spam? Are there any other measures that can be
done to reduce this type of spam? The pattern is one email address trying to
subscribe to all the mailing lists of domain for several days. Banning the
address works until a new email address is being used.

 

 



 

Brian Carpenter
Owner



Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.


T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com



 

 https://www.facebook.com/pages/EMWDcom/192156034142506
http://www.linkedin.com/in/brianemwd 



 

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Re: [Mailman-Users] What would your dream Mailman web interface look like?

[Brian Carpenter]

 cPanel has been fairly quick (but not immediate) about merging our
 updated releases with their custom mods, and making recent versions
 available to their customers. I expect this will continue with updates
 to Mailman 2.1.
 
 
 OTOH, it may be more difficult for cPanel to incorporate Mailman 3.
 While a large part of cPanel's MM 2.1 customizations have to do with
 supporting lists with the same list name in different domains on the
 same Mailman instance, and MM 3 does this out of the box, I expect it
 will be some time before cPanel offers MM 3.


I posted on cPanel's forums earlier today asking them straight-out if they
were planning on including Mailman 3 in their future versions of cPanel/WHM
when it became stable. One of their developer's post on the forums indicated
that cPanel is definitely aware of the development of Mailman 3 which I
found encouraging.


Brian Carpenter
Owner, EMWD and Mailmanhost.com

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Diagnosing command failures

[Brian Carpenter]

 Gary Merrill wrote:
 
  Now you might argue that Mailman was never intended to be
  deployed in such a lame support environment.  That is almost
 
 It sounds like a fairly typical mailman support environment.
 
  certainly true.  But it's ALMOST good enough to stand on its
  own feet in this environment, and I think that a number of
  subscribers to Webhostingpad make use of it.  It's been
  working very reliably and well with this one exception --
  which is certainly the problem of this single user.  Since
  Mailman doesn't log failures and doesn't return specific
  enough diagnostics to tell exactly what's going on, I'll have
  to deal with it a more direct and personal way.  I think the
  best thing to do would be to get one of his buddies to sit
  down with him and show him how to do it and what his problem is.
 
 A lot of people use the cPanel version and can't do anything complicated
for
 support. Even though this particular case is about trying to help a
difficult
 user to do something that's normally straightforward that's probably
 pointless anyway, I hope v3 at least gives cPanel users access to more
 diagnostics than v2 does.
 
 Peter Shute

This is not limited to mailman on cPanel boxes. Since we offer a mailman
only hosting service (separate from our shared hosting service) that runs on
cPanel servers, we find ourselves often in a position on needing a client to
contact their own web hosting company for help since we can only go so far
in trouble-shooting list delivery issues. This requires the separate hosting
company to go into their own mail logs and that my friends, is where things
seem to go wrong quickly. Too many in my opinion just are not willing to go
into any depth to help their clients. 

Today, I had to help out Godaddy's tech support because they totally wreck
their (and ours) client's ability to post to their own mailman list which
was hosted with us. 

Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud and Mailman Hosting Services and more for over 15 years.

E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com
www.mailmanhost.com


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Re: [Mailman-Users] Tend to pending moderator requests error when logging in

[Brian Carpenter]

It is very important that your hosting provider reviews the mailman error
log to see what is causing that error. In my experience it is usually a
permission issue and those are easily fixed. cPanel (which I believe is your
platform, provides scripts that will correct permission problems on
individual lists. Your hosting provider should be able to easily do this for
you. If not send me a private message to inquire more about moving to a host
that gladly supports mailman (that would be us).


Brian Carpenter
Owner

www.mailmanhost.com
www.emwd.com

E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 



 -Original Message-
 From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
 bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Jim Black
 Sent: Saturday, January 10, 2015 10:15 AM
 To: mailman-users@python.org
 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Tend to pending moderator requests error when
 logging in
 
 Does anyone know how to solve this error problem when clicking on the link
 to
 
 Tend to pending moderator requests
 
 resulting in the error message:
 
 Bug in Mailman version 2.1.18-1
 We're sorry, we hit a bug! Please inform the webmaster for this site of
 this problem. Printing of traceback and other system information has
 been explicitly inhibited, but the webmaster can find this information
 in the Mailman error logs.
 
 
 My hosting provider cannot get me the log files, so hopefully there will
be
 others who encountered this problem too.
 
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 https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/mailman-users
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 Unsubscribe: https://mail.python.org/mailman/options/mailman-
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Re: [Mailman-Users] All AOL unsubscribed

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Joe:

Are you using a hosted solution? If yes, then contact your host and ask them
if they see any delivery problems to those AOL addresses in their SMTP logs.
It is possible the server's IP address may be blocked by AOL or is suffering
from a poor IP reputation. You might want to review your bounce settings
within your list administration interface as the list is only handling
bounces according to your settings. One final note, if mailman is part of a
cPanel server then you can use the email trace tool within cPanel to see
what is going on with those AOL addresses without the need of your host.



Brian Carpenter
Owner

Providing Cloud and Mailman hosting Services

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

 



 -Original Message-
 From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
 bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of joseph cook
 Sent: Saturday, December 13, 2014 10:19 AM
 To: Carl Zwanzig
 Cc: mailman-users@python.org
 Subject: ***SPAM*** Re: [Mailman-Users] All AOL unsubscribed
 
 Yes, it is all aol.com addresses on my list and no others.
 
 13 addresses in total.
 
 the bounce log  (file: bounce) just says:
 Date (10938) pac59: address@aol.com current bounce score: 5.0
 
 The bounce count has been increasing since October is seems.
 But I still don't know why.
 
 There are other messages in the log after the bounce count is exceeded
 Notifying disabled member address@aol.com for list: pac59
 
 How do you get more information about *why* something bounced?  What
 message aol returned?  Any other ideas?
 
 Joe Cook
 
 
 On Fri, Dec 12, 2014 at 1:02 PM, Carl Zwanzig c...@tuunq.com wrote:
 
  On 12/12/2014 6:32 AM, joseph cook wrote:
 
  This morning all of my subscribers with aol addresses were
automatically
  unsubscribed from my list.
 
 
  Did you check the bounce log? The scores might have been creeping
 upwards
  for weeks and just hit the threshold.
 
  z!
 
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Re: [Mailman-Users] dangers of using subject_prefix with new DMARC problems

[Brian Carpenter]

  Shouldn't there be an or between 1. and 2? I would have thought if
 you've followed the advice in 1. then 2. shouldn't be necessary. That's
what
 we've done, and it's working ok.
 
 Regarding
 http://clientarea.emwd.com/knowledgebase/60/DMARC-and-
 Mailman.html:
 
 That's correct.  If you apply any of the DMARC mitigations (from_is_list
 or dmarc_moderation_action) available in the 2.1.18 Mailman release, you
 don't need to do any of the things in item 2 at the above link.
 
 --
 Mark Sapiro m...@msapiro.netThe highway is for gamblers,
 San Francisco Bay Area, Californiabetter use your sense - B. Dylan
 --

Thank you for pointing that out. I have made the correction. Sorry for the
confusion.


Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters

[Brian Carpenter]

Hi Alan:

Are you aware of the DMARC issue that list owners are facing when allowing
Yahoo and AOL members to post to a list? Please see the following:

http://wiki.list.org/pages/viewpage.action?pageId=17891458

Are you using the From_Is_List option on the general options page? If you
are, what setting do you have it set to?

We were/are having issues emailing Gmail users when using the mung setting
so we are now instructing our mailman clients to use the Wrap Message
setting. Google considers any email that breaks the 5322 RFC standard to be
a violation of their best practices for sending bulk mail. Also you can use
the following form to talk to Google:


https://support.google.com/mail/contact/msgdelivery

https://support.google.com/mail/contact/bulk_send_new?rd=1

Here is their Bulk Senders Guidelines:

https://support.google.com/mail/answer/81126



Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com

Providing Cloud and Mailman hosting Services and more for many years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com
www.mailmanhost.com

 



 -Original Message-
 From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
 bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Alan Meyer
 Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 2:58 AM
 To: Mailman-Users@python.org
 Subject: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
 
 Hi,
 
 I recently set up a Ubuntu 14.04 server with Mailman 2.1.16.  It took a
while
 for me to configure because I needed to modify the setup procedure from
 Ubuntu's instructions to what the mailman documentation suggested (no
 use of the postfix-to-mailman.py script).
 
 At any rate, my main goal has been to use mailman for an Indian Guides
 group, which for years has just been an email list of about 50
 people.  Mailman seemed like a great option to help ensure that all of the
 members are accounted for in each email and to have archives available.
 
 The problem that I'm having is that for some people on the list, they
don't
 reliably get their emails.  Mostly, this is from members that are on
gmail.com
 or hotmail.com or in some cases ymail.com.  The lost emails get stuck in
 their spam filter, and in some cases hotmail users don't get their emails
at all.
 
 I did some testing with a practice list I created (sending to my own set
of
 yahoo, gmail accounts), where my yahoo account was sending to members
 on a gmail account.  I found no issue sending directly from yahoo to
gmail,
 but from yahoo-mail list-gmail got caught in the gmail's spam filter. 
The
 gmail account spam folder would flag it and give me a note something to
the
 effect of The sender's yahoo.com address could not be confirmed.
 
 Furthermore, in the gmail account, I can mark the email as Not SPAM but
 that doesn't help on subsequent emails.
 
 
 As an experiment, I changed a few settings (from default Yes to No), but
 these didn't seem to make a difference:
 - Should messages from this mailing list include the RFC 2369 (i.e.
List-*)
 headers? Yes is highly recommended.
 - Should postings include the List-Post: header?
 - Should the Sender header be rewritten for this mailing list to avoid
stray
 bounces? Yes is recommended.
 
 
 My search for SPAM hasn't helped (most SPAM issues are related to actual
 SPAM getting in from user accounts).
 
 Have others encountered this type of issue?  Are there any settings I can
use
 or steps I can take to help resolve this?
 
 
 Thanks in advance.
 
 Sincerely,
 -Alan
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Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters

[Brian Carpenter]

 -Original Message-
 From: Peter Shute [mailto:psh...@nuw.org.au]
 Sent: Thursday, August 28, 2014 1:07 PM
 To: Brian Carpenter
 Cc: Alan Meyer; Mailman-Users@python.org
 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Emails lost due to receipient spam filters
 
  On 29 Aug 2014, at 1:25 am, Brian Carpenter br...@emwd.com wrote:
 
  We were/are having issues emailing Gmail users when using the mung
 setting
  so we are now instructing our mailman clients to use the Wrap Message
  setting. Google considers any email that breaks the 5322 RFC standard to
 be
  a violation of their best practices for sending bulk mail. Also you can
use
  the following form to talk to Google:
 
 What were the gmail issues, Brian? We're using munging on yahoo and aol
 messages, and haven't seen any problems so far, apart from inconsistent
 Reply All behaviour of some mail clients.
 
 Peter Shute

Sporadic blocking from Gmail's mail servers but with no error message. Since
Google considers breaking 5322 a bad practice, I am guessing that using mung
may be related to these random blocking. But I am guessing but since
recommending to our clients on our mailman servers, to start using wrap
message via the Sender Filters page, we have seen Gmail delivery
improvements and on some servers, the random blocking has cleared up
entirely. I have submitted a ticket with Google but am still waiting to hear
back from them so hopefully I will get a definitive answer to what was going
on.


Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com

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Re: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times

[Brian Carpenter]

The latest version (which we offer) offers additional moderation features
that gives list administrators more options in working with ISPs with poor
DMARC policies.

https://mail.python.org/pipermail/mailman-announce/2014-April/000188.html


Brian Carpenter
EMWD.com

Providing Cloud Services and more for over 15 years.

T: 336.755.0685
E: br...@emwd.com
www.emwd.com
www.mailmanhost.com


 



 -Original Message-
 From: Mailman-Users [mailto:mailman-users-
 bounces+brian=emwd@python.org] On Behalf Of Peter Shute
 Sent: Monday, July 21, 2014 2:56 PM
 To: Dave Nathanson
 Cc: mailman-users@python.org
 Subject: Re: [Mailman-Users] Erratic mail delivery times
 
 Thanks, Dave. How are you coping with yahoo emails if you've only got
 2.1.17? I can't remember what changes it's got in it, but I thought the
latest
 dealt with it better.
 
 Peter Shute
 
 Sent from my iPad
 
  On 22 Jul 2014, at 3:59 am, Dave Nathanson dave.li...@nathanson.org
 wrote:
 
  Hi Peter,
  To answer your question, Dreamhost has the *almost* newest version of
 MailMan 2.1.17. They upgraded just as 2.1.18 came out and had already
 tested 2.1.17 so they went with that. And this version does have the most
 important DMARC mitigation features. So it is working for us.
 
  I have never had any problem with DreamHost imposing a message
 sending cap on their 1-Click installs of Mailman. I run several
discussion lists
 there completely without incident, for 8 years Until this whole
 Yahoo/demarc mess. And we are back to normal. No host is perfect, but
 considering the low price  all the unlimited everything they offer, I'm
very
 happy with mine. Considering the price you have been paying, you will most
 likely need to pay more to get out of this problem, but maybe not much
 more.
  http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
 
  Best,
  Dave Nathanson
  Mac Medix
 
 
  On Jul 20, 2014, at 1:35 PM, Peter Shute psh...@nuw.org.au wrote:
 
  No, it's all hosted via cpanel. Does this mail per hour limit seem odd
with
 that sort of setup?
 
  Does dreamhost keep their mailman up to date? We're still on 2.1.15,
and
 when I asked about upgrading, they wouldn't commit to any date, only that
it
 would be more likely to be months than a month.
 
  Peter Shute
 
  Sent from my iPad
 
  On 21 Jul 2014, at 1:35 am, Dave Nathanson
 dave.li...@nathanson.org wrote:
 
  I'm surprised that any web/email host would apply a rule intended for
a
 personal email account to a listserve. I'm guessing that you are running
 MailMan on your own computer, then using mail server provided by your
 email hosting company to send the messages. So to the email host, you do
 look like a very busy personal account.
 
  As I see it, your options include:
 
  * Discuss this limitation with your email host  see if they will
waive the
 message sending cap for your listserv.
  * Use a mailman installation hosted by your email hosting company,
 which is not subject to a message sending cap.
  * Changing email hosts  using a mailman installation hosted by your
 email hosting company, which is not subject to a message sending cap.
 
  No need to change registrars. NameCheap is a good registrar, better
 than many. I haven't used their web/email hosting.
 
  My email lists are all running on Mailman provided by my email host.
You
 don't even need to install it, just choose a dedicated subdomain for it to
run
 on. They do NOT limit message flow from Mailman, although they do limit
 the number of messages per hour sent from a personal mail account. No
 web/email host is perfect, but I'm pretty happy with DreamHost. Especially
 for about $100 a year for more services than I can possibly use. (And I'm
 giving it a good go!).
 
  Here is a Dreamhost Coupon code  link that will give you $10 off now,
 plus 1 free LIFETIME domain registration. So that's a savings of about $11
a
 year for life. MACMEDIXFREEDOM  What else is included? Tons! Check it out.
  http://www.dreamhost.com/r.cgi?250640/hosting.html
 
  Best,
  Dave Nathanson
  Mac Medix
 
  On Jul 20, 2014, at 4:38 AM, Russell Woodford
 rdwoodf...@gmail.com wrote:
 
  Hi Peter, Mark and all
 
  I think I may have the solution now (Peter is one of our list
 moderators).
  My web host is now telling me that there is a 200 emails per hour
limit
 for
  my hosting plan. We have 1140 subscribers. That means we blow the
 limit out
  of the water EVERY time someone posts!
 
  I'm not sure why they have taken so long to tell me this, as we've
been
  running on this host for over 7 months, but it seems they throttle
the
  outgoing mail volume, so it can take a while for all those recipients
to
  get each message. I suppose it depends on overall server activity -
if
  nothing else is happening, then maybe a new message does get
 straight to
  1140 recipients.
 
  Looks like we will need to shift to a new listserver and maybe even a
 new
  webhost - and maybe even a new domain registrar (I've had all my eggs
 in
  the Namecheap basket