Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Please do not remove the code, as we have not seen the effect of the infobar (which is triggered 90 days after the installation, so only the first people might have seen it). The solution with "tip of the day" is OK, but will be implemented in the next version of LibreOffice and we cannot afford not to ask for contributions and donations for months. If you remove the code, I will be forced to ask to revert the patch and leave the infobar until the announcement of LibreOffice 6.3. On 10/05/19 11:19, Justin Luth wrote: > Since in two weeks no one has objected to using Tip of the Day (and in > fact, I see that both GetInvolved and Donate have already been included > as Tips of the Day...) I will go ahead and remove the now redundant > infobar code. I will ask Heiko to review it. > > Thanks, > > Justin > > > On 4/13/19 10:22 PM, Justin Luth wrote: >> On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli (and Sophi and Mike) wrote: >>> Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one >>> and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid >>> of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all). >> >> The recent LO 6.3 addition of "Tip of the Day" might be the solution >> that we are all looking for. It has these benefits: >> >> 1.) A built-in, discoverable method of disabling the pop-up for those >> who don't want to see the message again. >> >> 2.) It cleanly fits the purpose of a "tip" - to point the user to a >> function of the program (help-get involved, help-donate) that they >> might want to learn about and explore >> >> 3.) It remove duplication of effort in the codebase. >> >> >> Moving GetInvolved and Donate notifications into TipOfTheDay would >> return the infobar's status to "you must act on this in order for your >> document to function properly" (like read-only warning, or macro >> disabled warning). It seems like a much more natural fit as >> "informational tips". Therefore I suggest converting these two infobar >> messages into Tips. >> >> Thanks, >> >> Justin >> > -- Italo Vignoli - it...@italovignoli.com mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Since in two weeks no one has objected to using Tip of the Day (and in fact, I see that both GetInvolved and Donate have already been included as Tips of the Day...) I will go ahead and remove the now redundant infobar code. I will ask Heiko to review it. Thanks, Justin On 4/13/19 10:22 PM, Justin Luth wrote: On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli (and Sophi and Mike) wrote: Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all). The recent LO 6.3 addition of "Tip of the Day" might be the solution that we are all looking for. It has these benefits: 1.) A built-in, discoverable method of disabling the pop-up for those who don't want to see the message again. 2.) It cleanly fits the purpose of a "tip" - to point the user to a function of the program (help-get involved, help-donate) that they might want to learn about and explore 3.) It remove duplication of effort in the codebase. Moving GetInvolved and Donate notifications into TipOfTheDay would return the infobar's status to "you must act on this in order for your document to function properly" (like read-only warning, or macro disabled warning). It seems like a much more natural fit as "informational tips". Therefore I suggest converting these two infobar messages into Tips. Thanks, Justin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli (and Sophi and Mike) wrote: Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all). The recent LO 6.3 addition of "Tip of the Day" might be the solution that we are all looking for. It has these benefits: 1.) A built-in, discoverable method of disabling the pop-up for those who don't want to see the message again. 2.) It cleanly fits the purpose of a "tip" - to points the user to a function of the program (help-get involved, help-donate) that they might want to learn about and explore 3.) It remove duplication of effort in the codebase. Moving GetInvolved and Donate notifications into TipOfTheDay would return the infobar's status to "you must act on this in order for your document to function properly" (like read-only warning, or macro disabled warning). It seems like a much more natural fit as "informational tips". Therefore I suggest converting these two infobar messages into Tips. Thanks, Justin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Hi Justin, all, Justin Luth wrote on 1/30/19 6:21 AM: > Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: > > “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to > get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? > How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, > and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. I do well understand that topic and your point. For me it's a sort of little annoyance that I do pay too much attention too. In my understanding, the bar is a step in our experimental work to get proper attention and support for the future of the project. And surely not putting people off, is part of that too :) Isn't it that the user closes it with a single click? I assume there is an setting to disable the bar at installation time? Maybe it can be worked into a nice feature for organizations, that they display there own message with a link to e.g. a corporate help/support spot for the users. But ;) I think it is interesting to get more out of the data that Mike wrote about. With many hundreds of clicks a day, one hopes it shows up in donations and people becoming active. Shouldn't we try to find out how the bar is appreciated, or not, by LibreOffice-users? So, I do not really like it. But am not strongly against. And would be interested to learn if it really does something (positive) and/or needs to be in some other form. Cheers, Cor -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org - Member Board The Document Foundation - http://www.nouenoff.nl / https://www.mijncloudoffice.nl -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Italo Vignoli wrote on 2/15/19 5:47 PM: > My screen reflects what Thunderbird users see. Sorry, but I have checked I don't have it either. But was able to 'restore' it. > with Thunderbird people, and unless you disable the visualization of the > page - something which is possible only to tech savvy people - you see > that screen. Edit > Preferences .. uncheck first choice.. Not sure if that is so technical :p Possibly I disabled that a long time ago - in any case I would consider that page irritating. -- Cor Nouws GPD key ID: 0xB13480A6 - 591A 30A7 36A0 CE3C 3D28 A038 E49D 7365 B134 80A6 - vrijwilliger https://nl.libreoffice.org - volunteer https://www.libreoffice.org - Member Board The Document Foundation - http://www.nouenoff.nl / https://www.mijncloudoffice.nl -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
On 15/02/2019 17:38, Justin Luth wrote: > Your screen does not reflect in any way what actually happens on any of > my machines. And I am quite sure that I have never done anything to > avoid seeing it. That's my whole point. If that screen was visible to > me or my users, I would have scripted into my setup workflow some way to > avoid that. But I don't have any scripts for Thunderbird except for > backup and restore. I never needed to search the internet asking how to > hide/disable it and encounter only evasion. I didn't have to read > through any source code in order to find answers. Despite the fact that > Thunderbird has publicly proclaimed that they are basically a dead, > homeless project, they have managed to not once force their donation > pixels onto any part of my screen. My screen reflects what Thunderbird users see. Sorry, but I have checked with Thunderbird people, and unless you disable the visualization of the page - something which is possible only to tech savvy people - you see that screen. -- Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
On 1/30/19 7:26 PM, Italo Vignoli wrote: The fact that you do not see the request for donations from Thunderbird confirms what I have written in my previous message: Your screen does not reflect in any way what actually happens on any of my machines. And I am quite sure that I have never done anything to avoid seeing it. That's my whole point. If that screen was visible to me or my users, I would have scripted into my setup workflow some way to avoid that. But I don't have any scripts for Thunderbird except for backup and restore. I never needed to search the internet asking how to hide/disable it and encounter only evasion. I didn't have to read through any source code in order to find answers. Despite the fact that Thunderbird has publicly proclaimed that they are basically a dead, homeless project, they have managed to not once force their donation pixels onto any part of my screen. When open-source projects turn to intrusive begging, the marketing message that I hear is that the project is dying. I start looking for viable alternatives at that point. Hopefully I am once again only one in a million who picks up on that marketing message. Justin -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Good idea. There is the "About LibreOffice" item at the bottom of the "Help" menu, but that doesn't elaborate on the fact that LO is open source without following a link to the website. An "About" item is pretty much standard on many applications - both open source and proprietary. My guess is that not many people ever read it as they already "know" what it says without having to read it. Perhaps the "About" item should be removed from the bottom of the "Help" menu (indicating perhaps the lowest priority of any menu item) and prominently placed instead on the File menu as suggested, only with a far more compelling item name than "About". Plus, of course, more information on the dialog about how the project is developed and funded without having to branch off to the website. Nige From: Tim Lungstrom Sent: 02 February 2019 10:08 To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org; nigelver...@hotmail.com Cc: LibreOffice-NA.US - Webmaster Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice > On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote: >> Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: >> >> “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to >> get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? >> How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, >> and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. I have not been following these posts in this thread. Yet, I wonder what the user is talking about. I have not seen the "nag message" while using different versions for 64 bit DEB based install. I now use 6.1.4.2. I have not looked into a newer version, if it has been released yet. I still not have seen the "get involved" nag message. I have been using LibreOffice since the last release candidate before the first official release of LibreOffice – version 3.3.0.4 RC in October 2011 and replaced it with 3.3.1.2, of something like that. I have been promoting LibreOffice Office Suite as a replacement to keep buying newer and newer versions of MS Office – 2003 suite was last version I have. If there is a nag message, or something that could be thought it is a nagging message, then I would have seen it. Of course some people would call the message that there is a newer version of LibreOffice as a nag message. Well, instead of the idea of a nag message, could you add a new menu to the File/Edit/View menu bar. If possible, add a menu like “More Info” to be after the “Help” menu. Then you can have links to various information that is not part of “getting help” options. Then you can have a link like “Get Involved” in the Help menu. This way when a user looks into the various menu options, you get more options that may link to the various pages for the info about LibreOffice, the Document Foundation, Marketing Info, Volunteering, and any other thing like that. No Nagging. No popups except telling the user there is a newer version of LibreOffice or the extensions you use has an upgrade. >> Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support (who is damaged in >> each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user >> advocate. >> >> >> [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved” >> pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team) >> providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”. >> >> >> P.S. Sorry for not realizing that the ESC decision to remove GetInvolved >> from 6.1.5 Stable should have been confirmed by other bodies before >> being acted on. Well, the P.S. states 6.1.5.x will not have the "nag" to Get Involved, is great, but it seems to be removed in the 6.1.4.2 version. -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Hi Jean-Francois, On 30/01/2019 18:33, Jean-Francois Nifenecker wrote: > > So, as thorough it might be, your > social media monitoring is biased: (libre software) social media are not > for John Doe, but for geeks only. That's not completely true. Different social media platforms have different audiences. Geeks tended to be more active on Google+ (before Google announced its closure), whereas our Facebook page activity is almost entirely around end users. I talk to them every day on Facebook, and the vast majority of them are definitely not geeky. They talk about writing letters or doing their home finances. They ask simple technical support questions and talk about recommending LibreOffice to their friends and family. >> Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users >> every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we >> cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active >> contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO. > > It is highly probable that these people are geeks. Then great -- we have 800-900 geeks who are visiting our "Get involved" page every day! Isn't that an argument in favour of keeping it? :-) > But... John Doe is *not* the target and > might react as Justin stated. Many people in the community started as end users and then got more involved, either by joining mailing lists, doing some things on the wiki, helping on Ask etc. I've done lots of interviews on the TDF blog over the last few years, and many community members began as regular end users. So I don't think it's wrong to target them, IMO... But yes, if there are better ways, we should discuss them of course! Mike -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Hi Jean-François, Le 30/01/2019 à 18:33, Jean-Francois Nifenecker a écrit : > Mike, > > I share what Justin has rightly stated: most users will *not* > participate *any* software in any way. They are being using software > because they want their job done. Point. > > Le 30/01/2019 à 10:16, Mike Saunders a écrit : >> >> Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective: >> >> I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF >> (Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+ >> with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites. > > I'm managing ca. 1000 civil servant users which I encourage to install > at home the very software they're using at work (namely LibreOffice). > Most of them ignore what a social media is (well, they have heard about > it in the news, usually for bad). So, as thorough it might be, your > social media monitoring is biased: (libre software) social media are not > for John Doe, but for geeks only. And, you're right, some geeks might help. And your view might be biased by the French culture. Just compare Telegram groups, Indonesian has almost 1650 members (are they all geeks?) where French has only 15, add no FB group, a dead G+ one, very small Twitter account and I'll avoid speaking about Ask. So it's an overall point of view to be considered here on what we want to achieve. The position saying 'because they are not aware of TDF needs, then they don't care and there should be no change' is exactly what would endangered our projects. As Italo said, it's maybe no the best way to attract contributors, so let's work on a better solution and positive moves for both TDF and users, but better based on statistics and not only good feelings :) Cheers Sophie -- Sophie Gautier sophie.gaut...@documentfoundation.org GSM: +33683901545 IRC: sophi Release coordinator The Document Foundation -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Mike, I share what Justin has rightly stated: most users will *not* participate *any* software in any way. They are being using software because they want their job done. Point. Le 30/01/2019 à 10:16, Mike Saunders a écrit : Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective: I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF (Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+ with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites. I'm managing ca. 1000 civil servant users which I encourage to install at home the very software they're using at work (namely LibreOffice). Most of them ignore what a social media is (well, they have heard about it in the news, usually for bad). So, as thorough it might be, your social media monitoring is biased: (libre software) social media are not for John Doe, but for geeks only. And, you're right, some geeks might help. I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint (or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course, there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas break, but I hope you see my point!) John Doe won't complain. He'll mumble and won't understand why this $&§@ message is bothering him (Justin original message is clear about this). Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be bothering the vast majority of users. Not "some people". Most ot the ones I'm dealing with on a daily basis and who -- again -- will *never ever* go complaining anywhere. Again, your view is biased. As stated : FOSS is targetting at geeks, not at the general public. So a (not so) side question might be: who's the LibreOffice /typical/ user you're refferring to? Who are the ones you want to attract or retain? Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO. It is highly probable that these people are geeks. And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it. Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back. Sending this message is right. But... John Doe is *not* the target and might react as Justin stated. Best, -- Jean-Francois Nifenecker, Bordeaux -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
On 30/01/2019 16:58, Justin Luth wrote: > I have used Thunderbird on a daily basis for over 10 years and also > frequently set it up for all of our office users (about 50 computers). > I never see advertising in Thunderbird (60.2.1 64bit on Ubuntu) and I > can't recall ever having seen it - let alone having it pop up and > request a response to dismiss it. So quite honestly I have no idea what > you are talking about - I am completely unaware of any Thunderbird > advertising. However, I couldn't help immediately noticing and disliking > the advertisement as soon as it started in LibreOffice 6.1. I have used Thunderbird for the same time, and I have seen the request for donations every time I have started the software (since the project become independent from Mozilla). The image of my Thunderbird startup screen, which is identical on my Mac and on my Ubuntu PC, is here: https://www.dropbox.com/s/ykhivv6611u06qx/Screenshot%202019-01-30%20at%2017.11.13.png?dl=0. The fact that you do not see the request for donations from Thunderbird confirms what I have written in my previous message: only a tiny number of users looks at what is on the screen and is positively or negatively impacted based on his experience/background. Sorry, but you are one out of millions of users, and even 1000 complaints - which we do not have - would be enough to get rid of the request for involvement/donations. Of course, this does not mean that the current solution is the best one and therefore there is space for improvement (which is not getting rid of the request, as that would not be an improvement at all). -- Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
When I first saw this issue this morning, my initial reaction was to agree that perhaps a request for donations appearing within the application is inappropriate but, on reconsideration, I've changed my mind. Whenever I have been promoting the use of LO, the advantages of its open source heritage are usually acknowledged but the fact that it can be downloaded and installed without any financial outlay is almost always the deciding factor. Once the "sale" is made, it is likely that many users don't really consider how LO is developed while continuing to enjoy its benefits. There is a big difference between displaying an unsolicited 3rd party ad in an application, such as is common with phone apps, and a tasteful reminder of how LO is funded and developed. In fact I would not even consider the latter to be an ad at all. The difference between an "informative reminder" and a "nagging ad" is probably a combination of appropriate, considered wording and the way in which the reminder appears - frequency, what part of LO usage, etc. I have to admit I was staggered to learn that Thunderbird gets more funding than LO. Perhaps looking closely as Thunderbird's funding methods could be informative. Nige From: Mike Saunders Sent: 30 January 2019 09:16 To: marketing@global.libreoffice.org Subject: Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice Hi Justin, Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective: I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF (Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+ with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites. I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint (or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course, there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas break, but I hope you see my point!) Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be bothering the vast majority of users. Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO. And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it. Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back. One thing I *do* see a lot on social media is a rather entitled attitude of "LibreOffice should do X" or "Why hasn't LibreOffice got Y?". I gently remind those people that changes and improvements only happen if someone steps up to do them :-) So a very occasional reminder in the app is fine by me. People are getting a massively feature-rich office suite for completely free, after all -- they should bear in mind who makes it! Mike On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote: > Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: > > “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to > get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? > How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, > and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. > > > First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified > as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an > untargeted and intrusive irritant. > > Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and > references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has > driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place. > > And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this > again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an > improvement. > > > Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of > unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that > “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone > has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! > That will feel extremely offensive! > > Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can > discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but > intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let > us remove the infobar advertisements before they c
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Hi Justin, Thanks for raising this. I just want to offer my perspective: I closely monitor the social media channels for LibreOffice and TDF (Twitter with 23,000 followers, Facebook with 54,000 page likes, Google+ with 16,000 followers), along with Reddit and other sites. I've read many hundreds of feedback messages across those channels since the release of LibreOffice 6.1, and haven't seen a *single* complaint (or even mention) relating to the "Get involved" infobar. (Of course, there's a chance I've missed something, especially over the Christmas break, but I hope you see my point!) Now, that's not to deny that some people may find it a bit naggy. But I just want to add those data points -- that it doesn't seem to be bothering the vast majority of users. Another data point: the infobar in the app brings around 800-900 users every day to the "Get involved" page on our website. Of course, we cannot easily measure how many of those visitors become active contributors in the project, but it's a good start IMO. And now my personal view: I think we are absolutely right to keep it. Even if a few people find it naggy (and again, given that I've seen no mention of it on social media, I don't think it's many), I think it's extremely important that we remind people: this software doesn't just happen by magic. It's the hard work of a community and ecosystem members. If you want it to keep improving, contribute back. One thing I *do* see a lot on social media is a rather entitled attitude of "LibreOffice should do X" or "Why hasn't LibreOffice got Y?". I gently remind those people that changes and improvements only happen if someone steps up to do them :-) So a very occasional reminder in the app is fine by me. People are getting a massively feature-rich office suite for completely free, after all -- they should bear in mind who makes it! Mike On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote: > Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: > > “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to > get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? > How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, > and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. > > > First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified > as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an > untargeted and intrusive irritant. > > Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and > references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has > driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place. > > And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this > again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an > improvement. > > > Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of > unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that > “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone > has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! > That will feel extremely offensive! > > Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can > discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but > intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let > us remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage. > > Thanks, > > Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support (who is damaged in > each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user > advocate. > > > [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved” > pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team) > providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”. > > > P.S. Sorry for not realizing that the ESC decision to remove GetInvolved > from 6.1.5 Stable should have been confirmed by other bodies before > being acted on. > > -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Increasing involvement and donations is instrumental for the success of the project. We have an estimated user base of over 100 million unique users, and probably a similar amount of non unique users, but we have less donations than Thunderbird - who shows the donation message at every launch of the program, so even multiple times per day - but I have not seen any similar complaints on Thunderbird support mailing lists. I think that the right approach to this issue - which, by the way, does not seem to be an issue for many users, as I had to show a screenshot to several LibreOffice users to explain what I was referring to (including my wife), as they did not even notice the banner - is to improve the way we are showing it (including, of course, the form and the place) and not asking to get rid of it based on a number of opinions which is not representative of our user base. Thanks to the involvement of volunteers and to donations money we are able to organize events around FOSDEM, the LibreOffice Conference, pay for volunteer travels to events either internationally or locally, have a team who manages the day to day activities of the foundation, and so on. Missing the involvement of volunteers and the donation money, we should probably reduce over time and then stop all activities. I am happy to discuss a contructive way to improve the situation, with the objective of increasing the number of involved volunteers and the amount of donations, but I strongly oppose a simple removal of the banner. On 30/01/2019 06:21, Justin Luth wrote: > Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: > > “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to > get involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? > How do I get rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, > and perfectly mirrors my own initial and ongoing impressions. > > First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified > as naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an > untargeted and intrusive irritant. > > Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and > references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has > driven so many of us to FOSS in the first place. > > And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this > again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an > improvement. > > Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of > unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that > “GetInvolved” irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone > has donated to LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! > That will feel extremely offensive! > > Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can > discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but > intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let > us remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage. > > Thanks, > > Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support (who is damaged in > each of these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user > advocate. > > [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved” > pop-up, Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team) > providing an actually supported version would show this to their users”. -- Italo Vignoli - Marketing & PR email italo.vign...@documentfoundation.org mobile/signal +39.348.5653829 - skype italovignoli hangout/jabber italo.vign...@gmail.com The Document Foundation, Kurfürstendamm 188, 10707 Berlin, DE Gemeinnützige rechtsfähige Stiftung des bürgerlichen Rechts Legal details: http://www.documentfoundation.org/imprint GPG Key ID - 0xAAB8D5C0 DB75 1534 3FD0 EA5F 56B5 FDA6 DE82 934C AAB8 D5C0 -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
Re: [libreoffice-marketing] plea to remove in-app advertising from LibreOffice
Hi, I second Justin, simply because the infobar prevents users from focusing on what they'd like to do at the moment with LibO. Cheers, -- Takeshi Abe On Wed, 30 Jan 2019 08:21:05 +0300, Justin Luth wrote: > Someone on ask.libreoffice.org wrote: > > “Lately, in LibreOffice 6.1.2.1 I get a nag window on top asking me to get > involved. Are you trying to become obnoxious windows-like software? How do I > get > rid of that thing?” This succinct post is very revealing, and perfectly > mirrors > my own initial and ongoing impressions. > > > First, note the user perception of this new “feature”. It is classified as > naggy. It is not seen as a legitimate request for help, but as an untargeted > and > intrusive irritant. > > Secondly, it is totally unwanted. This user terms it as obnoxious, and > references the disrespectful and heavy-handed Windows attitude that has driven > so many of us to FOSS in the first place. > > And that all leads to the obvious reaction of “how can I never see this > again.” Seeing it once is already too much, and every 90 days is not an > improvement. > > > Do we really want to market LibreOffice as yet another piece of > unprofessional[1] beggarware? Everyone already acknowledges that “GetInvolved” > irritates us, but now imagine the scenario where someone has donated to > LibreOffice and a week later the donate message pops up! That will feel > extremely offensive! > > Having places (like help - get involved/donate/about) where the user can > discover and actively seek out ways to support LibreOffice is fine, but > intentionally irritating the user base is sure to back-fire. Please, let us > remove the infobar advertisements before they cause too much damage. > > Thanks, > > Justin - volunteer developer, promoter, user-support (who is damaged in each > of > these capacities by this adware), and self-appointed end-user advocate. > > > [1] It is completely unprofessional. Speaking about the “get involved” pop-up, > Michael Meeks writes that “No vendor (or in-house team) providing an actually > supported version would show this to their users”. > > > P.S. Sorry for not realizing that the ESC decision to remove GetInvolved from > 6.1.5 Stable should have been confirmed by other bodies before being acted on. > > > -- > To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org > Problems? > https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ > Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette > List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ > Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy -- To unsubscribe e-mail to: marketing+unsubscr...@global.libreoffice.org Problems? https://www.libreoffice.org/get-help/mailing-lists/how-to-unsubscribe/ Posting guidelines + more: https://wiki.documentfoundation.org/Netiquette List archive: https://listarchives.libreoffice.org/global/marketing/ Privacy Policy: https://www.documentfoundation.org/privacy
