Speight 'not the real coup leader'
From an AFP correspondent in Suva
THE AUSTRALIAN19aug00
FIJI'S George Speight was not the real leader of
the May 19 coup that bought down the Chaudhry
government, a cabinet minister held hostage for
56 days said yesterday.
His
A good read, Hugh - and one I can't do justice on grounds of great dollops
of ignorance and very few dollopettes of spare time. So I leave chunks of
your argument out - point it out if I misrepresent you as a consequence.
I've a few quibbles, anyway, natch.
Just for clarity's sake, here's your
G'day Hugh,
I see Robert Service's new biography of Lenin is, whilst much more generous
and sublte than, say, Pipes's hatchet job, also pretty damning of Lenin's
philosophying. Reckons he was nothing special as a theorist. That said,
when Lenin got to apply his book-learning to reality,
G'day again,
A quickie before bed ...
Gidday to you too, my slippery eel!
Fair go! You've been known to daub yourself with the Johnson's Baby Oil,
yourself, Hugh!
I hope we focus on the categories SC make salient,
but fail to tell us just what these might be...
Er, SC make 'em SALIENT.
G'day Thaxists,
So the ill-disguised mutual distrust between the continental Euros and the
US has taken another significant turn ... Echelon has been doing just what
you'd expect of a cold-war system in a post-cold-war setting: industrial
spying. And now the US is going the route usually taken
G'day Chris,
Yeah, it's a tad precious to criticise political leaders/administrators of
small polities for playing the game in which they, and their constituents,
find themselves. London's economy does, I'd have thought, depend more than
most directly on the finance sector, though, and I'd be
G'day Hans/comrades,
I, for one, am happy to go with what you think is best. You're the one
putting in all the effort, you're the main reason we're here together, and
you know the people concerned best. And I dare say all here would agree
with me that both your intentions and decisions have
Beaut words, Hugh!
Onwards and upwards!
Rob.
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G'day Bill,
Hope you've recovered from the Brumbies choking during the big one.
I would never have recovered had the Brumbies choked.
I have recovered.
Ergo: The Brumbies did not choke.
Referee Watson was the Crusaders' best contributor by far - especially in
his stoic refusal to react to all
Morning all,
I see Moscow is threatening to drop some bombs on Afghanistan because the
Taliban is allegedly (and unsurprisingly) helping out the Chechen
separatists. If that's their logic - and they may well have embarked on a
road whence there is no exit for Putin - they'll end up having to
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G'day Thaxists,
I've hopped off the fence for a minute to uns*bscribe the offending e-dress
and all should be fine again. Sorry for the bandwidth hassle, comrades!
Cheers,
Rob .
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Me, too, David. Can't do anything about it right now, though. If it's
still playing up in the morning (antipodean time), we'll get on to it, then.
'Night all,
Rob.
--
From: David Welch [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: M-TH: List problems
Date: Mon, 15 May 2000
Love to, Bob, only I'll be alphabetising the spicerack for the foreseeable
future ...
Yours-in-search-of-a-party-who-reckon-agreeing-on-the-social-ownership-and-contr
ol-of-the-means-of-production-is-more-than-enough-reason-to-be-friends,
Rob.
The entire 49 page internal squabble between
G'day Jim,
Sez you:
As I read it Lenin's characterisation of imperialism was not simply a
euphemism for military intervention, but precisely the predomination of
capitalism's reactionary side over its progressive. Lenin proposes as an
example of the progressive side, the application of science
G'day George,
There is a way to do this, but I'm not sure whether everyone has access to
it (I really don't grasp the technology's workings, I'm afraid). I don't
think this list has discussed a policy on disclosing the e-identities of
subscribers. For my part, I am happy for such disclosure to
G'day Thaxists,
Thaxis has 103 edresses s*bscribed to it. Ya can't tell much about nation
of origin from edresses these days, as many s*bscribe through US-registered
edresses from all over the world. That said, I spy Australians,
Brazilians, Russians, Bulgarians, Britishers, Kiwis, Turks,
Title: Samir Amin on C20 (and C21?) #3
US HEGEMONY ATTACKS --THE 21ST CENTURY WILL NOT BE AMERICAN: In this
chaotic conjuncture, the US took the offensive once more to reestablish
its global hegemony and to organise the world system in its economic,
political and military dimensions
Title: Samir Amin on C20 (and C21?) #2
AFTER THE WAR --FROM TAKE-OFF (1945-1970) TO CRISIS (1970-PRESENT):
The second World War inaugurated a new phase in the world system. The take-off of
the post-war period (1945-1975) was based on the complementarity of the
three social projects of the
G' day Thaxists,
A contentious piece but well worth a quiet half-hour in the pub with a
thoughtful pint. Shan't chance my own half-arsed response yet, but think it
well worth having a solid chat about. Please have a peek, comrades! Plenty
here for us to chew on, I reckon.
Best to all,
Rob.
2. Systemic Transition
What does it mean to say that a system enters into systemic crisis? It
means that the secular trends are reaching asymptotes that
they cannot cross. It means that the mechanisms that have been used up
to that point to return the system to relative equilibria
no longer can
**BOLIVIA UNDER MARTIAL LAW**
As of 10 am Saturday morning Bolivia was declared under martial law
by President Hugo Banzer. The drastic move comes at the end of a week of
protests, general strikes, and transportation blockages that have left
major areas of the country at a virtual
G'day Dave'n'Hugh,
A really really quick 'un ...
Sez Hugh of the little disagreement of late:
it's part of the struggle for the leadership of the working class,
It might be an analogue of some such struggle in some place and time, but I
doubt anyone here really seeks to lead the working
Just a quickie while I watch Australia play the Czecg Republic (the latter
lead 1-0 just after half-time in a cracking good match),
Thinking about Hugh and Doug's latest posts, it occurs to me that market
socialism may actually play a part in the mass mobilisation process itself
(should one come
Commiserations, Jim! You're too bloody talented to stay out in the cold for
long, I know.
But I'd been enjoying those LM e-mails ...
All the very best, comrade!
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G'day again Thaxists,
Quoth Hugh:
a) that Trotsky is in fact arguing for market socialism as an *alternative*
to the dictatorship of the proletariat with centralized planning and
centralized control of finance and foreign trade;
No, he's arguing for market socialism as crucial part of 'the
C'mon Hugh!
I argue that a socialist economy might need the market mechanism (for I can
see nothing else that would do the particular job of producing and
distributing use values) and you tell me there's going to be abundance, that
"there is *no* scarcity", that "Market socialism is no
Hi again, Hugh.
Just a quick reprise on the ol' chestnut at hand:
You:
Market socialism is a cowardly utopian cop-out. Anything to avoid the
life-and-death confrontation with the bourgeoisie that creating the
preconditions for real socialism will involve.
Me:
Market Socialism ain't gonna
But to say this is to say that productivity is a purely bourgeois concept.
Yes, it is.
Which is crap.
No, it isn't.
The whole driving force behind history according to Marx's perspective is
the development of the forces of production bursting the fetters placed
upon them by the various
G'day Thaxalotls,
Was cleaning out my backlog when it suddenly occurred to me that George
might have a point (although I don't know how important a point it need be).
Is a 'commodity' something that distinguishes itself from its hypothetical
being under another economic system purely on the
Agence France Presse
March 13, 2000, Monday 3:13 AM, Eastern Time
SECTION: International news
HEADLINE: UN losing its way in East Timor: top official
BYLINE: Kate Webb
DATELINE: JAKARTA, March 13
A British UN official who resigned his post in East Timor out of
frustration, said Monday that
G'day Chas,
CB: I could go with you are right and Marx is left.
I don't agree with George at all, but I do reckon a leftie is not obliged
to agree with Marx, nor with others' interpretations of Marx. And I don't
reckon there's anything particularly right-wing about refuting the
predominance of
G'day Bob'n'Hugh,
I realise I'm probably giving Bob a bat with which to beat Hugh here, but I
find myself pretty well completely in agreement with Hugh on this one (which
proves anything can happen in this world). Get with the critical mass, help
that mass discover in itself the capacity to
G'day again, Bob.
Nope Rob. It just don't work that way.
You'd be hard pressed to prove it works by way of that vanguard of yours,
Bob! Especially in first world settings. We don't have those well-drilled
collectively conscious proletarians on whom your mate Lenin was so keen. We
have a
G'day George,
You claim:
To say that the "wealth of those societies presents itself as an immense
accumulation of commodities" is not true. Much of the wealth is in the
form of industrial capital which is not capital in the form of the
commodity. This mistaken premise renders the validity of
G'day all,
Quoth RD of the WSM via the SPGB:
Nah, just plain bloody daft. Simple question - how can voting for
Livingstone lead to Socialism? Surely, it should be axiomatic beyond doubt
that socialists should not engage in any activity that does not clearly have
the possibility of
leading to
G'day John,
I've never had the pleasure of reading an MR (not a single Oz newsagent
stocks it), but I've read several of Wood's books (the latest being
*Democracy Against Capitalism*) and at least one article. She's genuine,
clever and a good writer (renewing my confidence in the Marxian take
G'day Tony,
I'm no Catholic, but it seems to me even the Pope has realised - rather
late in the piece - that his vicious anti-leftism (especially in Latin
America) and uncritical pro-Reaganism has produced a cruel and godless
Mammon every bit as inimical to him as that fanciful red dawn.
G'day Thaxists,
Escaped the heat this arvo by bolting into the newsagents. Saw a mag on the
rack called The Australian Rationalist, which I usually take, but the pub
was next door and I'd resolved to spend my fiver there. Until that is, I
saw the cover. For there, writ large, was as neat and
Is it a popular misconception that the Freedom Party in Austria is really
a fascist party.
You're onto something that's vaguely bothering me, too, George.
What little I know of far-right parties is that their support is made up of
malcontents of many a stripe (with fascists among 'em, no
G'day Kim,
In his polemic against Kautsky and in Socialism and War, Lenin argues that
socialists need to look at whether particular wars benefit imperialist
powers or the working class struggle. If they do not then socialists can
and should support them.
It's not as if East Timor was ever
Before I get into needless trouble, I'd better point out that I'm agreeing
with Lenin on the quoted bits of *Infantile Disorder* (not that I quite
agree with the whole book) - and only disagreeing here with the application
of Lenin's polemical poke at Kautsky [on evaluating wars] to the East
Hi again,
To claim as the Green Left does that the E Timorese were in
danger of extermination is to echo the imperialist line that the E
TImorese were helpless at the hands of Wiranto. This is not true, if
they were rendered helpless it was at the hands of the imperialists.
If Djakarta had
Happy New Year, Thaxists!
Sez Jim F.
Our friend Bob is always disparaging Kautsky but couldn't it
be the case that Lenin was right concerning pre-WW I Europe
whereas Kautsky's concept of a super-imperialism may well
have validity for the world we live in now?
Well I like a bit of speculation
Hi again Thaxists,
Neil and Doug point us at the difficult question of what it is to be
socialist - whilst such questions generally generate more heat than light on
mailing lists, I do think the distinction between left-liberalism and
socialism is no sharp divide at all. In fact, I tend to
has been IMF-restructured to the point of bankruptcy, for
instance. Write off a few hundred billion now, and the suits might be able
to keep the African body alive long enough to squeeze a couple of billion
out of it in the medium term, eh?
Sorry, make that 'write off a few hundred Million now
G'day Hugh,
Agreed with your take on debt relief - a little orgiastic and very public
gesture of generosity now is not only good PR, but also helps obviate
massive across-the-board defaults not too long down the track. Doug tells
me Zimbabwe has been IMF-restructured to the point of bankruptcy,
G'day Kim,
Yeah, I'd heard this, too. See below.
Cheers,
Rob.
http://chumbly.math.missouri.edu/harel/quotes/keller.2.html
" Oh, ridiculous Brooklyn Eagle! What an ungallant bird it is! Socially
blind and deaf, it defends an intolerable system, a system that is the
cause of much of the
A Philadelphia Medical School discovered the chain of damaged genes
complicit in breast cancer a little while ago, and set to developing a
breast cancer screening system. Some mob called Myriad from Salt Lake City
then sent 'em a letter saying you can't do that coz we hold a twenty-year
patent
G'day Thaxists,
John has prodded me back to *Anti-Duhring* - and what a good read it is,
too (I've always maintained that, whilst Marx could deliver himself of
some world-historic passages, Engels was the better read over any
distance). Anyway, I reckon a would-be historical materialist, such
Superb post, Russ!
HM posits a self-reflective humanity, for whom reality is the sensuous
activity through which said reflection and reality constantly transform each
other. Action, history and politics are all there.
Hope that means I'm allowed to party! I've a weekend straight out of 1977
G'day Charles,
It takes an extreme contortion not to see that Marx's correspondence and
much other work is literally dripping with evidence that he considered
his work to be joint with Engels's.
The two consciously disagreed about many things, Charles! From the
personal (lovers and
G'day Simon,
Thaxis had a pretty good go at the 'materialist conception of history'
interpretation question a little while back - which may explain the paucity
of responses to this question. Not surprisingly, some of us defended the
necessary social basis of HM and some didn't. But those who
G'day Hugh,
What Rob is describing in Seattle is what Bob M and me have been describing
in Sweden, and what me and Bob and Dave have been going on about for years
now.
You go on about it during the recess breaks between retreads of the ol'
'I'm a good bolshie, you're a bad pb menshie, and all
I enjoyed and appreciated the Meszaros article very much (as I seem to
whenever he puts pen to paper). Thanks to Jim for the post.
Writes John:
It was not political control that was at the heart of Communism but
the control of the means of poduction, short and simple. Communism is
effectively
Hi again, Bob,
What did ya do turn on the tele or look in your cristalball to predict this?
You want a crystal ball? A few weeks down the track Grosny will be a hole
in the ground, Moscow will have reluctantly agreed to Wasington's 'moral'
pleas to withdraw their regulars, Bislan Gantamirov
G'day Thaxists,
I don't think it matters whether trying to hang on to the prizes of past
expansionism constitutes an act of imperialism today or not, really. I
reckon we might be missing the point of all this!
I don't reckon Russia can win this war, and I don't reckon it could ever
have
G'day Chris,
I am glad you reposted this. In view of the volume of correspondence on
LBO-talk I think there is often a role for the issues to be discussed on a
specifically marxism list. And unlike Louis Proyect, you and Bill do not
censor the debate.
But at this stage just a question please.
I am surprised to read Rob's arguments that Russia is not going to win.
This war is well-supplied logistically and they are already digging in and
are prepared to surround Grozny and shell it throughout a long winter. They
persist in ruling out negotiations.
Well, they might call it a win in
G'day Bob,
Doug's probably fast asleep just now, so here's an interesting piece he
posted on his list the other day. I'd be interested in Thaxist views on
this meself.
Cheers,
Rob.
[From the bear's den at http://www.LeMetropoleCafe.com]
Frank Veneroso - Veneroso Associates - November 19,
G'day Russ,
I can't remember whether you're on LBO or not. In case you're not (and in
case other Thaxists might be interested), here are a couple of perhaps
edifying (and mebbe not) snippets from there.
G'day all,
Well, the 'minimalist' republican option took a 54-46% kicking. It seems
the
G'day Thaxists,
Simon sez:
I think that the difference here is that I am not arguing for a
Marxist revolution, but a socialist one: i.e. that while Marx provided
one of the first expositions of socialist theory, you don't have to have
read a word of Marx to be a socialist.
Eliciting
Hi again,
Living in a country proudly anticipating 'catching up with the first world'
by way of introducing a goods'n'services tax, I can't help but notice this
model supports the intuitive take on such a manouvre most compellingly.
Take out the UK's VAT, whack up the marginal income tax rate on
G'day Jerry,
Jerry, what we'd like is for you just not to talk about this particular
non-subscriber's personal traits on Thaxis *at all*. It's just about all
you do here, and it's all the more annoying for the fact you have much to
offer - if only you thought us worthy of your finer efforts.
September 13: John Howard proudly proclaims he has 'no regrets' over East
Timor: "If I had my time over again, I would not have handled things any
differently."
Now back to a summarising timeline as gleaned from John Lyons's article 'The
Secret Timor Dossier' (*THE BULLETIN* October 12 1999,
G'day Dave,
You write:
What do you mean "hang around"? The terms of the UN resolution
requires the disarming of Falintil!
Well, 'peacekeepers' refute their brief in practice all the time (often
with their political leaders' tacit approval). I'd have preferred a bit of
honest lying, meself
A pretty useless document, Bob. Yeah, Australia is a minor imperialist
nation state. Yeah, we're a paternalistic bunch, with some racism in our
soul. Yeah, we check with Uncle Sam first. Yeah, Aboriginal Australians
have been hideously treated. And, no, the executive levels of our union
What could have worked "quite nicely" Rob?
Just garrison the towns and feed who's left (btw: I see elsewhere that some
believe the casualty figures are surprisingly low - a strange thing to say
at a stage when nearly half a million people are still missing. I'm still
inclined to suspect a real
G'day George,
Yep. I have to agree. Canberra is going with the military on tactics, and
with the Yanks on strategy. 0/2 for mine. We're busy making something
that could have worked quite nicely into something that might well get very
ugly for all involved.
To torture an old Australian
G'day all,
I hear Ambon has been isolated by the Indonesian authorities. No transport
or public communications in or out. Just a bunch of well-armed troops,
some very poorly armed Christian seccessionists, and lots of people whose
views on the matter just aren't going to matter. The drawn-out
G'day Thaxists,
George reckons:
A few tentative observations on East Timorese developments. It is clear
that the imperialist forces that have descended on East Timor to
ostensibly protect the civilian population against the pro-independence
"militia" are a mere pretext for direct
Book Reviews - Clear-eyed prophet. The basic ideas of Karl Marx have been
ruthlessly parodied and vulgarised. But his critique of capitalism, argues
Tariq Ali, has never been more relevant in our debased times.
NEW STATESMAN
Monday 20th September 1999
Karl Marx
Francis Wheen
Fourth Estate,
G'day Russ,
Well, we have had more sign up since than I've come to expect over a such a
period, there's no doubt about that. But we're losing more than usual at
the moment, too ...
A net gain, though!
I like the site very much. And am not sure as to what US law (which
generally applies with
G'day Thaxists,
But Rob, do you really imagine that there can be any political situation,
let alone a crisis , that does not team with numerous contradictions and
different class interests?
Oh, I don't doubt that for a minute, Chris. It's just that the particular
contradictions in play at the
G'day Macdonald,
Thaxis has two moderators and I'm one of 'em. And how may I be of
assistance?
Cheers,
Rob.
Hi folks. I was wondering who moderated this list, can someone tell me?
Macdonald
--- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
G'day Bob et al,
On the question of brutalised Afghan women, Bob declines to sign on the
grounds that:
No! And this is why..Leaving aside the incredible situation that women find
themselves in in Afghanistan as well as other places.By the way the left
was
complicent in this in there support of
, Australia
165) Michael Sergi, Cook, Australia
166) Rob Schaap, Canberra, Australia
PLEASE COPY this email on to a new message,sign the bottom and
forward it to everyone on your distribution lists. If you receive
this list with more than 200 names on it, please e-mail a copy of it to :
[EMAIL
G'day George,
Megawati got more votes than anybody else, but not a more than all others
put together (I seem to remember a figure in the 35 -40 % range). Golkar
came second, with about a quarter of the vote, and the outright Muslem party
did quite badly, with less than 5 per cent (Indonesia is
G'day all,
'Turns out that someone in Djakarta had arranged for huge holding camps to
be set up in West Timor at least four days before the referendum (camps that
are apparently 'processing' 2 people a day - some dying mysteriously and
many being sent to other islands). Making news also is
G'day again,
Some idle speculation I sent to Pen-l - for what it's worth:
What i don't understand is when the Indonesian state and the military as well
as all the members of the security council decided to have the referendum,
what were they thinking? They simply couldn't be stupid enough not
G'day all,
I have to rant.
Australia still hasn't
a - withdrawn recognition of Indonesian sovereignty of East Timor
b - expressed open support for Habibie against Wiranto
c - withdrawn aid
d - withdrawn our embassy staff from Djakarta and expel the Indonesian staff
from Canberra
e - stopped
G'day Chris,
You take exception to the literal definitions required to make Marx's law of
value, indeed his whole critique of capitalist political economy, coherent.
Whilst your instinct does you credit (I doubt anybody here doesn't share
it), I think you forget that the NIC worker is suffering
G'day Lew,
Incidentally, Rob, I have been asked if this list has a searchable archive
and, if so, how does one access it.
Well, I shouldn't be surprised if Hans's server configuration has the
post-move Thaxis archive in some form or another, but I don't think there is
a publicly accessible
Thanks for the Chicago Tribune interview piece, Chas. I'd never even heard
of it! A good read, eh?
And a Happy Labour Day to you.
Rob.
--- from list [EMAIL PROTECTED] ---
G'day Erik,
You write:
If we were really going to put your statement into practice, we
would have to go to the "newly industrializing nations" (I believe that is
the P.C. term for Third World nowadays) and attempt to direct them towards
revolutionary consciousness (since they are far more
Ah, what a thing is an Australian spring! Garish blooms, chattering
parrots, chortling magpies, snogging roos, migrating turtles and a soft sun
that can caress even the jaded likes of me into flights of sensuous fancy.
Do a September in Ozzie before you die, comrades - the footy's still on and
Actually, Chris, my home e-mail account is not very trustworthy (I'd
prepared a response, but it and a heap of others just never went) _ I am
not beyond quoting Marx from secondary sources, but I have read the 18th
Brumaire many times - it's my very favourite of his writings (which I'm
sure I've
Sigh, s'pose I have to make the required menshie noises ...
Chas quotes some stalwart Bolshie mates:
Noam Chomsky says: "One can debate the meaning of the term 'socialism,'
but
if it means anything, it means control of production by the workers
themselves, not owners and managers who rule
G'day Thaxists,
Melancholia Alert!
A few typical stories that would be carried by a half-decent news bulletin
on this particular but ordinary day:
Thousands of Irish Republicans sit in the road to demonstrate, and they're
clubbed to a bloody pulp as they sit there ...
100 000 Melbournians
G'day Chas,
I reckon you sound like a good historical materialist in this post -
especially here:
"Marx says that the chief defect of all hitherto existing materialism,
Feuerbach included, is that it is contemplative and not active. "
here:
"History is made by active classes"
here:
G'day Bob,
You write:
Well, who would not oppose and end to the killing! But to compare this to
that this leadership is dedicated to a genuine struggle towards socialism is
fairly mind boggling. And in fact in regards to the killing only has for a
short time perhaps reduced it. And even if
Awright, Chris. You have a bite.
You write:
She sounds like a symbol of subjective revolutionary passion, like Che
Guevara.
Leaving poor Che out of it for a minute - where do you get that 'subjective
revolutionary passion' bit from? Don't you like that quip of hers about
'the false steps
--
From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
G'day Doug,
You write:
In other words, these are glamorous issues, but not really all that
representative or as profound as the huffing-and-puffing makes them out to
be.
All useful info, Doug, but it's precisely the
G'day Chris,
In *C1* Marx refers to Timon's speech, in which money is described as the
'common whore of mankind': "Just as every qualitative difference between
commodities is extinguished in money, so money, on its side, like the
radical leveller that it is, does away with all distinctions."
G'day Doug,
You write:
"Information" itself is an empty concept. Information about what? Capital
flows are a kind of information. So are chip designs and patented
engineered molecules. So is Ally McBeal. So what exactly are we talking
about here?
Well, I guess I'm talking about all of 'em.
G'day Bob,
'We' is the ironic reference Robert Fiske makes to the west, Bob - it's
from a rhetorical tradition which often makes its points by simulating the
viewpoint of the target so as to ridicule 'em - Yanks have no such
tradition, so you can't be blamed for missing the core of the article
G'day John,
Haven't got my *C* with me ...
My understanding of the way things are today is that banks create over 90%
of the money in circulation through the provision of credit. It exists
only as digits, and represents a faith in the near-to-mid term old crisis
theorists like me don't think
Just got home - John's question about gold and credit still nags at me, so
I've whipped Doug's book off the shelf (a hard-back less than twenty years
old ain't hard to find there) and dug out a few germaine morsels.
Doug follows Marx's *Grundrisse* "Pure paper and bank money did perish in
19th
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