Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-13 Thread WILTON via Mercedes
For my '75 Dodge van rear evaporator in '75, I ran regular, rubber AC hose 
from engine compartment under the vehicle (secured by tie wraps/zip ties) 
and up a rear, inside corner (covered on inside by a factory panel) to the 
evap mounted on ceiling immediately inside the rear doors.  Still working 
great when I sold the van 17 years later.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: ned kleinhenz via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes List Mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: ned kleinhenz ned.kleinh...@gmail.com
Sent: Wednesday, August 12, 2015 2:56 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c



Thanks to everybody for the advice and enlightenment.

For the most part, you have all reinforced what I was thinking.  Just
wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Actually, the evaporator itself is probably not leaking.  The service
adviser described the leaks as being in the o-ring joints that connect the
several lengths of aluminum tubing connecting the front condenser to the
rear evaporator setup.  Those joints were all too corroded to separate.
Presumably the tubing connections at the rear evaporator were similarly
corroded. Of course the dealer's solution is to rip it all out and replace
it. And from a dealer's -spare no cost to the customer- perspective this
makes some sense.  When I googled the problem, I saw some photos that
showed the couplings are aluminum, tapped and held together with steel
bolts.  As you would expect, a little road salt would make the dis-similar
metals fuse into an inseparable mass. It would take mucho time, skill and
tools to replace just those joints.

My wife says she doesn't care about the rear air conditioning, now that 
the

kids left the nest.  So I'll probably plug or bypass, as appropriate, the
lines to the rear.

To keep the records accurate, I can't speak extensively about Toyota, but
this Sienna has been remarkably trouble free for the last 175,000 miles.
The four Mercedes diesels I've driven over the past 30 years have never 
had

an air conditioner failure.  The only significant air conditioner failure
we have ever experienced was in a Dodge Caravan my wife previously drove.

Thanks again for the advice and help,
Ned Kleinhenz
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-13 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

Curly,
The Dodge was an '88 Grand Caravan.  It's A/C compressor failed IIRC.
Ned


I suspected it was pre-MB.  The 97 and later vans are pretty good. 
By 99 they were pretty dependable.  the little square boxyones like 
your 88 had problems.


I've had 99, 2000 and 09

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-13 Thread ned kleinhenz via Mercedes
Curly,
The Dodge was an '88 Grand Caravan.  It's A/C compressor failed IIRC.
Ned
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-12 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

Thanks to everybody for the advice and enlightenment.

For the most part, you have all reinforced what I was thinking.  Just
wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Actually, the evaporator itself is probably not leaking.  The service
adviser described the leaks as being in the o-ring joints that connect the
several lengths of aluminum tubing connecting the front condenser to the
rear evaporator setup.  Those joints were all too corroded to separate.
Presumably the tubing connections at the rear evaporator were similarly
corroded. Of course the dealer's solution is to rip it all out and replace
it. And from a dealer's -spare no cost to the customer- perspective this
makes some sense.  When I googled the problem, I saw some photos that
showed the couplings are aluminum, tapped and held together with steel
bolts.  As you would expect, a little road salt would make the dis-similar
metals fuse into an inseparable mass. It would take mucho time, skill and
tools to replace just those joints.

My wife says she doesn't care about the rear air conditioning, now that the
kids left the nest.  So I'll probably plug or bypass, as appropriate, the
lines to the rear.

To keep the records accurate, I can't speak extensively about Toyota, but
this Sienna has been remarkably trouble free for the last 175,000 miles.
The four Mercedes diesels I've driven over the past 30 years have never had
an air conditioner failure.  The only significant air conditioner failure
we have ever experienced was in a Dodge Caravan my wife previously drove.

Thanks again for the advice and help,
Ned Kleinhenz


Heat the joints with an acetylene torch.  Heating dissimilar metals 
with break the nearly unbreakable bond.  A microtorch may generate 
enough heat for this.



Was the caravan a pre-97 boxy kind?

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-12 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
Boy my emails take a long time to show up huh? I sent that one just before 5 
and it showed up after 8...
-Curt

  From: Curt Raymond via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: Curt Raymond curtlud...@yahoo.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 4:58 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c
   
A good AC shop can probably fix it for half what the dealership wanted or 
less...
-Curt
      From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 4:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c
  
Operative word here is Dealer...

Take it to a well versed independent AC shop and have them put in a piece
of line that bypasses the rear evap unit, then recharge the system.

The rear unit is plumbed in series with the front unit as far as the
coolant flow, most likely. One compressor feeds both evaporators. Two
controls, one for each evap, right?

A good AC shop should have no issues sorting it out.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:11 PM, ned kleinhenz via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 My wife drives a 2006 Toyota Sienna.  The air conditioning in that mini-van
 lost its refrigerant.  The Toyota dealer wanted $3,595 to replace the
 corroded rear evaporator and rear refrigerant lines needed to fix the leak.
  I told the dealer “Air conditioning is nice, but not worth that much to
 us.”  The dealer refused to block off the rear air conditioner, and only
 said, “You can’t do that”.


 I see there are several sources of special tubing plugs used to block off
 the rear air conditioning of this mini-van model.  Does anybody have
 experience with this?  Can the front A/C system of dual evaporator vehicle,
 work long term, with the back system blocked off?


 Thanks,

 Ned Kleinhenz

 06 – E320 CDI
 95 – E300D
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-12 Thread Rich Thomas via Mercedes
They have been routed through Hillary! Clinton's email server, and the 
Secret Service guys have to check them to make sure they haven't been 
hacked.


--R



On 8/11/15 8:53 PM, Curt Raymond via Mercedes wrote:

Boy my emails take a long time to show up huh? I sent that one just before 5 
and it showed up after 8...
-Curt



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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-12 Thread ned kleinhenz via Mercedes
Thanks to everybody for the advice and enlightenment.

For the most part, you have all reinforced what I was thinking.  Just
wanted to make sure I didn't miss anything.

Actually, the evaporator itself is probably not leaking.  The service
adviser described the leaks as being in the o-ring joints that connect the
several lengths of aluminum tubing connecting the front condenser to the
rear evaporator setup.  Those joints were all too corroded to separate.
Presumably the tubing connections at the rear evaporator were similarly
corroded. Of course the dealer's solution is to rip it all out and replace
it. And from a dealer's -spare no cost to the customer- perspective this
makes some sense.  When I googled the problem, I saw some photos that
showed the couplings are aluminum, tapped and held together with steel
bolts.  As you would expect, a little road salt would make the dis-similar
metals fuse into an inseparable mass. It would take mucho time, skill and
tools to replace just those joints.

My wife says she doesn't care about the rear air conditioning, now that the
kids left the nest.  So I'll probably plug or bypass, as appropriate, the
lines to the rear.

To keep the records accurate, I can't speak extensively about Toyota, but
this Sienna has been remarkably trouble free for the last 175,000 miles.
The four Mercedes diesels I've driven over the past 30 years have never had
an air conditioner failure.  The only significant air conditioner failure
we have ever experienced was in a Dodge Caravan my wife previously drove.

Thanks again for the advice and help,
Ned Kleinhenz
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread Randy Bennell via Mercedes

I think I would be complaining to Toyota too.
Notwithstanding the fact that the vehicle is 10 years old, why would the 
evaporator be corroded?
I had an 86 Chevy Suburban with dual air and had some trouble with the 
aluminum pipes under the vehicle being eaten by salt until I figured out 
a way to provide some protection to them but I never had any issues with 
the evaporator.
I replaced the pipes twice at $300+ each time but it sure did not cost 
$3600.


RB

On 11/08/2015 2:11 PM, ned kleinhenz via Mercedes wrote:

My wife drives a 2006 Toyota Sienna.  The air conditioning in that mini-van
lost its refrigerant.  The Toyota dealer wanted $3,595 to replace the
corroded rear evaporator and rear refrigerant lines needed to fix the leak.
  I told the dealer “Air conditioning is nice, but not worth that much to
us.”  The dealer refused to block off the rear air conditioner, and only
said, “You can’t do that”.


I see there are several sources of special tubing plugs used to block off
the rear air conditioning of this mini-van model.  Does anybody have
experience with this?  Can the front A/C system of dual evaporator vehicle,
work long term, with the back system blocked off?


Thanks,

Ned Kleinhenz





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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread WILTON via Mercedes

My favorite reply to You can't do that is, Just watch.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 4:18 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c



Operative word here is Dealer...

Take it to a well versed independent AC shop and have them put in a piece
of line that bypasses the rear evap unit, then recharge the system.

The rear unit is plumbed in series with the front unit as far as the
coolant flow, most likely. One compressor feeds both evaporators. Two
controls, one for each evap, right?

A good AC shop should have no issues sorting it out.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:11 PM, ned kleinhenz via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

My wife drives a 2006 Toyota Sienna.  The air conditioning in that 
mini-van

lost its refrigerant.  The Toyota dealer wanted $3,595 to replace the
corroded rear evaporator and rear refrigerant lines needed to fix the 
leak.

 I told the dealer “Air conditioning is nice, but not worth that much to
us.”  The dealer refused to block off the rear air conditioner, and only
said, “You can’t do that”.


I see there are several sources of special tubing plugs used to block off
the rear air conditioning of this mini-van model.  Does anybody have
experience with this?  Can the front A/C system of dual evaporator 
vehicle,

work long term, with the back system blocked off?


Thanks,

Ned Kleinhenz

06 – E320 CDI
95 – E300D
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread Curt Raymond via Mercedes
A good AC shop can probably fix it for half what the dealership wanted or 
less...
-Curt
  From: G Mann via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com 
Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com 
 Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 4:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c
   
Operative word here is Dealer...

Take it to a well versed independent AC shop and have them put in a piece
of line that bypasses the rear evap unit, then recharge the system.

The rear unit is plumbed in series with the front unit as far as the
coolant flow, most likely. One compressor feeds both evaporators. Two
controls, one for each evap, right?

A good AC shop should have no issues sorting it out.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:11 PM, ned kleinhenz via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 My wife drives a 2006 Toyota Sienna.  The air conditioning in that mini-van
 lost its refrigerant.  The Toyota dealer wanted $3,595 to replace the
 corroded rear evaporator and rear refrigerant lines needed to fix the leak.
  I told the dealer “Air conditioning is nice, but not worth that much to
 us.”  The dealer refused to block off the rear air conditioner, and only
 said, “You can’t do that”.


 I see there are several sources of special tubing plugs used to block off
 the rear air conditioning of this mini-van model.  Does anybody have
 experience with this?  Can the front A/C system of dual evaporator vehicle,
 work long term, with the back system blocked off?


 Thanks,

 Ned Kleinhenz

 06 – E320 CDI
 95 – E300D
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

Friends don't let friends drive a toada.

get a dogde.  They run 300 to 350k miles and the A/c works.

I see no reason why you can't plug off the rear.  Plug em and charge 
the remaining system.




My wife drives a 2006 Toyota Sienna.  The air conditioning in that mini-van
lost its refrigerant.  The Toyota dealer wanted $3,595 to replace the
corroded rear evaporator and rear refrigerant lines needed to fix the leak.
 I told the dealer Air conditioning is nice, but not worth that much to
us.  The dealer refused to block off the rear air conditioner, and only
said, You can't do that.


I see there are several sources of special tubing plugs used to block off
the rear air conditioning of this mini-van model.  Does anybody have
experience with this?  Can the front A/C system of dual evaporator vehicle,
work long term, with the back system blocked off?


Thanks,

Ned Kleinhenz

06 - E320 CDI
95 - E300D
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread Dwight Giles via Mercedes
ATTABOY
On Aug 11, 2015 5:48 PM, WILTON via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com
wrote:

 My favorite reply to You can't do that is, Just watch.

 Wilton

 - Original Message - From: G Mann via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com
 To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
 Cc: G Mann g2ma...@gmail.com
 Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 4:18 PM
 Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c


 Operative word here is Dealer...

 Take it to a well versed independent AC shop and have them put in a piece
 of line that bypasses the rear evap unit, then recharge the system.

 The rear unit is plumbed in series with the front unit as far as the
 coolant flow, most likely. One compressor feeds both evaporators. Two
 controls, one for each evap, right?

 A good AC shop should have no issues sorting it out.

 On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:11 PM, ned kleinhenz via Mercedes 
 mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 My wife drives a 2006 Toyota Sienna.  The air conditioning in that
 mini-van
 lost its refrigerant.  The Toyota dealer wanted $3,595 to replace the
 corroded rear evaporator and rear refrigerant lines needed to fix the
 leak.
  I told the dealer “Air conditioning is nice, but not worth that much to
 us.”  The dealer refused to block off the rear air conditioner, and only
 said, “You can’t do that”.


 I see there are several sources of special tubing plugs used to block off
 the rear air conditioning of this mini-van model.  Does anybody have
 experience with this?  Can the front A/C system of dual evaporator
 vehicle,
 work long term, with the back system blocked off?


 Thanks,

 Ned Kleinhenz

 06 – E320 CDI
 95 – E300D
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Operative word here is Dealer...

Take it to a well versed independent AC shop and have them put in a piece
of line that bypasses the rear evap unit, then recharge the system.

The rear unit is plumbed in series with the front unit as far as the
coolant flow, most likely. One compressor feeds both evaporators. Two
controls, one for each evap, right?

A good AC shop should have no issues sorting it out.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 12:11 PM, ned kleinhenz via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 My wife drives a 2006 Toyota Sienna.  The air conditioning in that mini-van
 lost its refrigerant.  The Toyota dealer wanted $3,595 to replace the
 corroded rear evaporator and rear refrigerant lines needed to fix the leak.
  I told the dealer “Air conditioning is nice, but not worth that much to
 us.”  The dealer refused to block off the rear air conditioner, and only
 said, “You can’t do that”.


 I see there are several sources of special tubing plugs used to block off
 the rear air conditioning of this mini-van model.  Does anybody have
 experience with this?  Can the front A/C system of dual evaporator vehicle,
 work long term, with the back system blocked off?


 Thanks,

 Ned Kleinhenz

 06 – E320 CDI
 95 – E300D
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread WILTON via Mercedes
'Certainly should be able to if the refrigerant lines to the rear evap are 
blocked/rerouted so as to isolate the rear evap from the system and the 
lines for the front evap are connected so as to provide a complete circuit 
only to/from the front evap.


In '75 I added an AC evaporator to rear of a '75 Dodge; merely spliced T 
fittings into the refrig lines under the hood to send refrig to rear evap 
(Frigiking) in a parallel manner.
If your evaps are in series, merely cut/block lines to rear and install a 
coupling to reroute the refrig back to compressor and condenser without gong 
to rear.

Fill system as appropriate.

You (I) can't do that too often means, I don't want to.

Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: ned kleinhenz via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes List Mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: ned kleinhenz ned.kleinh...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 3:11 PM
Subject: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c


My wife drives a 2006 Toyota Sienna.  The air conditioning in that 
mini-van

lost its refrigerant.  The Toyota dealer wanted $3,595 to replace the
corroded rear evaporator and rear refrigerant lines needed to fix the 
leak.

I told the dealer “Air conditioning is nice, but not worth that much to
us.”  The dealer refused to block off the rear air conditioner, and only
said, “You can’t do that”.


I see there are several sources of special tubing plugs used to block off
the rear air conditioning of this mini-van model.  Does anybody have
experience with this?  Can the front A/C system of dual evaporator 
vehicle,

work long term, with the back system blocked off?


Thanks,

Ned Kleinhenz

06 – E320 CDI
95 – E300D
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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread WILTON via Mercedes
Most likely in parallel with expansion valve at each evap. like my '75 
Dodge.  I could run both at same time or either one independently - did so 
for about 17 years.


Wilton

- Original Message - 
From: Curly McLain via Mercedes mercedes@okiebenz.com

To: Mercedes Discussion List mercedes@okiebenz.com
Cc: Curly McLain 126die...@gmail.com
Sent: Tuesday, August 11, 2015 10:40 PM
Subject: Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c



The rear unit is plumbed in series with the front unit as far as the
coolant flow, most likely.


Unlikely.  Remember how AC works: it is not pumping cold fluid around,
it is pumping HOT fluid around.  The phase change that occurs at/after
the expansion valve sucks the heat out of the environment.  After the
phase change the coolant is cold, but has little remaining heat-carrying
capacity.  My read on it is that there are TWO expansion valves, all is
is wired in parallel.  The compressor/condenser is sized up accordingly.

But look it up for sure.

-- Jim



I think this is correct.  either can run independently of the other, or 
both can run at the same time, or both can be off.


Plug off the in and out of the bad evap and charge what is left.  The 
trick is how much is a full charge.  Sight glass is the key for this deal. 
Scale won't help, other than to determine how much actually went in.


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread fmiser via Mercedes
  G Mann wrote:
  
  The rear unit is plumbed in series with the front unit as
  far as the coolant flow, most likely.

 Jim wrote:
 
 Unlikely.

 My read on it is that there are TWO expansion
 valves, all is is wired in parallel.  The
 compressor/condenser is sized up accordingly.

That's how my Suburban with rear A/C works.  Two valves.


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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread G Mann via Mercedes
Curly, I stand corrected. Your verbal diagram is the more likely
arrangement.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:

 The rear unit is plumbed in series with the front unit as far as the
 coolant flow, most likely.


 Unlikely.  Remember how AC works: it is not pumping cold fluid around,
 it is pumping HOT fluid around.  The phase change that occurs at/after
 the expansion valve sucks the heat out of the environment.  After the
 phase change the coolant is cold, but has little remaining heat-carrying
 capacity.  My read on it is that there are TWO expansion valves, all is
 is wired in parallel.  The compressor/condenser is sized up accordingly.

 But look it up for sure.

 -- Jim



 I think this is correct.  either can run independently of the other, or
 both can run at the same time, or both can be off.

 Plug off the in and out of the bad evap and charge what is left.  The
 trick is how much is a full charge.  Sight glass is the key for this deal.
 Scale won't help, other than to determine how much actually went in.

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Re: [MBZ] OT Mini-van dual zone a/c

2015-08-11 Thread Curly McLain via Mercedes

Uh, I think that was Jim, whom I quoted.


Curly, I stand corrected. Your verbal diagram is the more likely
arrangement.

On Tue, Aug 11, 2015 at 7:40 PM, Curly McLain via Mercedes 
mercedes@okiebenz.com wrote:


 


 Unlikely.  Remember how AC works: it is not pumping cold fluid around,
 it is pumping HOT fluid around.  The phase change that occurs at/after
 the expansion valve sucks the heat out of the environment.  After the
 phase change the coolant is cold, but has little remaining heat-carrying
 capacity.  My read on it is that there are TWO expansion valves, all is
 is wired in parallel.  The compressor/condenser is sized up accordingly.

 But look it up for sure.

 -- Jim




 I think this is correct.  either can run independently of the other, or
 both can run at the same time, or both can be off.

 Plug off the in and out of the bad evap and charge what is left.  The
 trick is how much is a full charge.  Sight glass is the key for this deal.

  Scale won't help, other than to determine how much actually went in.
 


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