Re: [meteorite-list] Meteoritehunter fights with Museum
Here is what I posted on the Weblog http://lunarmeteoritehunters.blogspot.com/2009/07/german-meteorite-news-thomas-grau-finds.html Tuesday, July 07, 2009 German Meteorite News- Thomas Grau Finds Meteorite Fall in Slovenia 9JUL09 Deutscher findet Meteorit in Slowenien Bild.de Ein seltener Meteoritenfund ist einem Deutschen nach eigenen Angaben in Slowenien gelungen. Thomas Grau aus Bernau (Brandenburg) entdeckte in der Grenzregion zu Österreich einen 2,35 Kilogramm schweren Gesteinsbrocken aus dem All. Der Meteorit war am 9. April im Karawanken-Gebirge niedergegangen und zerbrochen. Er hatte seinen Fund aus dem Mai kürzlich auf einem Treffen des deutschen Feuerkugel-Netzwerks vorgestellt. Grau hatte bereits den Meteoriten entdeckt, der im Januar für eine spektakuläre Feuerkugel am Himmel über dem Ostseeraum gesorgt hatte. Er fand das Stück im März auf der dänischen Insel Lolland. http://www.bild.de/BILD/news/telegramm/news-ticker,rendertext=8946900.html English Translation: A German according to own information in Slovenia has managed a rare meteorite finding. Thomas Grau from Bernau (Brandenburg) discovered in the border region to Austria a 2.35 kilogram rock lump from a Fall. The meteorite had come down on the 9th April in the Karawanken mountains and had broken. He had introduced his finding from May recently on a meeting of the German fire ball-network. Grau had already discovered the meteorite which had provided in January for a spectacular fire ball in the sky about the Baltic Sea area. He found the piece in March on the Danish island Lolland. Posted by LunarMeteorite*Hunter at 3:15 PM --- On Fri, 7/10/09, Michael Farmer meteorite...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Michael Farmer meteorite...@yahoo.com Subject: [meteorite-list] Meteoritehunter fights with Museum To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Friday, July 10, 2009, 12:17 AM http://www.sta.si/en/vest.php?s=aid=1408119 and you guys wonder why we want to keep the location of the new AZ fall secret. Michael Farmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteoritehunter fights with Museum
Who knows, whether there is a conflict at all. This is press, media.. See the rubbish with the German pupil struck by a meteorite. Even the first word on that page is wrong, as Grau is certainly no astronomer. I would rather think, that the Slovenian museum is happy, that this new fall was recovered, and perhaps it's a translation mistake and clash means negotiate. The Danish meteorite will end in the Copenhagen museum too, Villalbeto ended a lot in Spanish museums, Neuschwanstein will end 80% or more in Austrian and German museums, And so on. Cause we all are so brave and good galsboyz. Martin (Who thinks, that every new meteorite found is certainly no disgrace or annoyance!) -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Michael Farmer Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. Juli 2009 17:18 An: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: [meteorite-list] Meteoritehunter fights with Museum http://www.sta.si/en/vest.php?s=aid=1408119 and you guys wonder why we want to keep the location of the new AZ fall secret. Michael Farmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] How far away can a meteor be heard?
Hello List, Here's what Buchwald wrote about the Treysa meteorite fall in 1916: BUCHWALD V.F. (1975) Handbook of Iron Meteorites, Vol. 3, pp. 1232-1235): A mass of 63.28 kg fell April 3, 1916 at 15:25 hrs (14:25 hrs Greenwhich time). Numerous eyewitnesses saw a fireball that moved, in four seconds, with an average (geocentric) velocity of 16.3 km/s in a trajectory inclined 55° to the horizontal from N 15° W to S 15° E. The intensity of the light from the fireball gradually decreased until it disappeared at the unusually low altitude of 16.4 km. The heliocentric velocity was calculated to be 37.5 km/s corresponding to an elliptic orbit within the solar system. Due to fine weather the meteorite was observed from an area 135 km in radius. The whole train, 81 km long, was visible as a whitish band that slowly became blurred until it vanished after 10 minutes. Eyewitnesses within a radius of 50 km heard a detonation a few minutes after the fireball had disappeared, and some witnesses near the end point of the trajectory allegedly observed a black body falling. Good luck to all those trying to hunt it down, Bernd __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Meteoritehunter fights with Museum
Dear List members, i think there is no dispute! The museum in Slovenia have the the largest fragments and nearly 2 Kilo from this stone! So i see the newspaper articles as information only. Many greetings to all Mirko Mirko Graul Meteorite Quittenring.4 16321 Bernau GERMANY Phone: 0049-1724105015 E-Mail: m_gr...@yahoo.de WEB: www.meteorite-mirko.de Member of The Meteoritical Society (International Society for Meteoritics and Planetery Science) IMCA-Member: 2113 (International Meteorite Collectors Association) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
Thanks Chris! My observations from the photo of the video camera and the video are that the video camera was pointed basically North and that the meteor appeared to travel basically east. Is this and other`s take on the direction of travel? Thanks, Dirk --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu wrote: From: Chris Peterson c...@alumni.caltech.edu Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 10:58 PM A strewn field can be at any orientation with respect to the original meteor path, and can lie some miles from the terminal explosion location, depending on the height of the explosion and the winds. It is very difficult to determine where meteorites will land, even with accurate video records and good weather data (from a weather balloon). At best, you can narrow it down to a few tens of square miles. After that, it's back to the tried and true: interviewing people on the ground, and searching. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that a large fireball, even with a terminal explosion, is very likely to produce no meteorites at all. Better camera data can help access the likelihood of that by helping to narrow down the entry angle and velocity. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: meteorh...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA Hey All, Just for everyone's information, I personally think that if at least two good video's can be found from two different locations, the intersection can be found where the MD-PA bolide extinguished. That should be the heart of the strewnfield. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] How far away can a meteor be heard?
All you (hopefully: lucky) hunters might also have to factor this into your calculations and hunting preparations: During its luminous phase which lasted over 40 seconds, the Peekskill meteoroid covered a ground path of some 700 to 800 km according to Brown et al. (1994). Aerodynamic drag caused a greater than 20 km longitudinal displacement of the fragments and the transverse displacement was about 1km for some of the smaller fragments. Video Observations of the Peekskill Meteorite Fireball: Atmospheric Trajectory and Orbit (Meteoritics 29-4, 1994, p. 455): The dark flight of the recovered meteorite started from a height of 30 km, when the velocity dropped below 3 km/s, and the body continued an additional horizontal distance of 50 km without ablation, until it hit a parked car in Peekskill, New York, with a vertical velocity of about 80 m/s. Good luck! Bernd __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies
Hi Peter, me again... Using the data that Martin gives in his email, it is clear that there is a clear correlation between the increase in the number of finds coming onto the market and the imposition of the restrictive law. There are even more impressive figures. You remember Libya, the DaGs, HaHs ect. In 6 years there are recorded 1048 finds. Then the hunters stayed away. In the following 7 last years in Libya not more than 45 meteorites were still found. A similar decline we would face in Oman, if the authorities there would enforce in a stronger way the new regulations there, perhaps not to that extend, cause the Suisse-Omani-teams are there at work, but of course they can't find that much as before was found. I gave here once the comparison of the figures of Lunars and Martian found in the same time between private official hunts in Oman. I don't want to repeat them here, for not being misunderstood, that I would have something against the Suisse-Oman-teams, on contrary. On the NWA sector we face already the beginning decline since Algeria had introduced new regularities. And currently a group of scientists is eager to introduce similar laws in Morocco. NWA- has a larger dimension, as there a multiple more of meteorites are found than in Antarctica, Australia and Oman together. If such laws will come in force, then it's easy to predict, that we will have then soon a situation like in Australia. And that all in all the short period with the amazing find rates and the most important finds will be definetely history. That's why I asked yesterday, what the goals should be. Getting meteorites for research or preserve the meteorites as national heritage. If one introduce protectionist laws in the desert countries, Then there won't be almost no finds anymore, there won't be any thousands finds per year anymore, and almost all of the few dozens finds still made then will be weathered chondrites. In turn, this very few finds could be saved better as national heritages. So I wanted to know, what is more desirable for the official side. Cheers! Martin -Ursprüngliche Nachricht- Von: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] Im Auftrag von Peter Davidson Gesendet: Donnerstag, 9. Juli 2009 13:41 An: James Baxter Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Betreff: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies James Thanks for the welcome and for the message of support. In list such as this, it is often difficult to get a balanced view because there are obviously many, many more collectors and dealers than there are curators. But that does not mean our voices should not be heard. I agree that I did not answer some of Martin's points, and in particular his analysis of the Australian and American finds. Using the data that Martin gives in his email, it is clear that there is a clear correlation between the increase in the number of finds coming onto the market and the imposition of the restrictive law. This is a perfectly valid argument. I did not raise any counter-argument because I accept the figures are true and I therefore cannot dispute these with a different set of figures that show a different position. This situation exists in many areas of life and is no less true of the mineral market, than it is of the meteorite market. The price of minerals or meteorites is rising all the time, and as prices rise, so the number of collectors and dealers that are active rises. The result is a steep rise in the material coming onto the market. This is fine as long as the market can support this situation, but as everyone knows, the property market upon which our banks build up their empires eventually collapsed and thus we have arrived at the current financial crisis (simplistic I know). Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.david...@nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: James Baxter [mailto:jbaxter...@pol.net] Sent: 08 July 2009 17:09 To: Peter Davidson Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Hello Peter, Welcome to the list. Thanks for your contribution. It is nice to get a curator's perspective. I'm sure most if not all list members are envious of your job and support your work. I do feel you have not answered Martin's central argument that if laws prohibiting export were not in place your Australian colleagues would have far more material to study through dealer and collector contributions and trades. As a humble private collector I like to think I am supporting (or at least not depriving) the public institutions' collections. I know many of the dealers I support with my purchases have donated or traded large amounts of material to public institutions. This may be simple rationalization, but I do feel Martin's numbers regarding finds in the
Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
Hiya, It has been my experience that editorial desks to do not want canned quotes from press releases for feature stories any more than the photo department wants to rely on canned publicity images. If it's a remotely serious publication, they will not base the story on the press release when the story and frequently it's barely referred to--- as this is contrary to journalistic ethics. A press release is all- too-frequently merely the bait which attracts an assignment editor and it starts and stops there. Publications hope to create their own content. Sometimes a story will be almost entirely predicated on a press release but this is rarely occurs except in trade mags, community listings, small community papers, etc. It's difficult to control content or perspectivehence the notion of spin. All best and good luck. If I didn't have to travel overseas later today for my day job I would most definitely be out there with you. Jealous and wishing you much success!!! On Jul 9, 2009, at 9:37 AM, drtanuki wrote: Dear Steve and List, Your answer points to the need of an advance-prepared press release so that reporters get their facts straight and so that there is less chance of a mis-quote. Reporters are infamous for making headlines and ignoring the facts. Good use of the reporter and news to get the word out for video evidence. Have a great day in your hunt! Best, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- On Thu, 7/9/09, meteorh...@aol.com meteorh...@aol.com wrote: From: meteorh...@aol.com meteorh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA To: drtan...@yahoo.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 10:23 PM In a message dated 7/9/2009 4:46:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time, drtan...@yahoo.com writes: Regarding what a meteorite is worth it is worth what you or someone is willing to pay, so I suggest that you re-phrase the question to the reporter when asked, and reply that I am willing to pay up to... (or a realistic price) range. Dirk, The problem is that I am not willing to pay anything for a meteorite, at least not now. I didn't come here to buy a meteorite. And as such, I didn't talk to the media about buying one. I was asking for people to check their video and to come forward if they had any footage with the fireball. The reporters didn't ask me what I was willing to pay. They asked me somewhere in the context of All this effort,spent time and money, to come up here and do all this work, are meteorites worth it? Which I answered with the normal response of how they can be valuable to science, bla, bla, bla, and that museums and researchers and private collectors are interested, bla, bla, bla. And then I was asked Well, what are meteorites worth? And, even if I was wanting to buy a meteorite, I still would not quote a price, because I don't give quotes for purchase when I don't know how big it is, what condition it is in, or the supply and demand factors involved at the moment of making the offer. All that can change, and about the only thing certain, is that when the time might come to make a real offer on a real meteorite, I would most likely be willing to pay more or less, maybe far more or far less than any quote I would give back in the hypothetical stage. Again, the question to me wasn't what I was willing to pay, but what meteorites are worth. Now, I have some work to do, and some rocks to go find. Have a nice day. Steve Arnold of Meteorite Men **Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] A double heads-up re: Sky Telescope articles
Hi List, 1) The August issue of ST was in my mailbox today. On pp. 22-25, you'll find J.K. Beatty's* article entitled: Asteroid Shatters Over Sudan: Catch A Fallen Star * You will have seen and read his post: Seismic Data search for 6JUL09 meteor 2) In the September issue of Sky Telescope (on your newsstands by August 4th), you'll find an article about: Ice Age Impact: Did a wayward comet wipe out large North American mammals? Cheers, Bernd __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] MRO HiRISE Images - July 8, 2009
MARS RECONNAISSANCE ORBITER HIRISE IMAGES July 8, 2009 o Search for the Mars Polar Lander http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_013368_1035 o Ramparts in Tooting Crater http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_013089_2040 o Ramparts in Tooting Crater (Stereo Pair) http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_013023_2040 o Gullies in Acidalia Planitia Region http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_011898_2175 o Interesting SHARAD Features http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_011878_1045 o Layering and Faulting in Candor Chasma http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_011873_1675 o Spring View of Crater with South Polar Layered Material http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ESP_011749_1000 All of the HiRISE images are archived here: http://hirise.lpl.arizona.edu/ Information about the Mars Reconnaissance Orbiter is online at http://www.nasa.gov/mro. The mission is managed by NASA's Jet Propulsion Laboratory, a division of the California Institute of Technology, for the NASA Science Mission Directorate, Washington, D.C. Lockheed Martin Space Systems, of Denver, is the prime contractor and built the spacecraft. HiRISE is operated by the University of Arizona. Ball Aerospace and Technologies Corp., of Boulder, Colo., built the HiRISE instrument. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension
As if you didnt need another reason to try and diversify your business away from ebay here is what happened to me this morning. I am not making any part of this up or in any way dramatizing what happened. Neither Stephen King nor the guys on CSI could make this up. I wake up to numerous emails from ebay this morning from ebay cancelling my auctions and two emails saying that my account was suspended. Many auctions were canceled because they were Significantly misrepresented. After 3 hours of chatting with people I finally get through to the trust and safety people after a recommendation from ebay australia. I was told that somebody (who??? - she had no way of knowing who) decided that my auctions were misrepresented. She couldent tell me what was misrepresented just that they look at the description, picture and content when deciding was what misrepresented but she had no way of knowing exactly what. So I try and reason with her. If you cant tell me what it is about my auctions that was misrepresented how can I not repeat the problem in the future? Sit down before you read her response. She said that if ebay told everybody what they look for when they decide that auctions are misrepresented then people would do things to get around their security checks in future auctions so it would be a security violation to tell me what it was about my auctions that was being misrepresented and therfore canceled (And leading to my suspension.) She then said that my suspension was for 7 days so even if she did tell me it wouldent make any difference because you cant list on ebay for 7 days again anyway. Reasoning is getting harder. OK, for my information. in seven days time when I get back on ebay again can you tell me what about my auctions was misrepresented so that I can fix them and not violate your policy in the future so I dont get kicked off again?. Sorry, telling you what the problem is would be a security violation and if people who what they looked for would do things to circumvent their rules in the future. This is going nowhere. I wish that I had a copy of that phone conversation. It would have looked good on youtube. In addition, the emails that ended the auctions said this: eBay has restricted your ability to list new items as a result of a policy violation. We'd be happy to lift this restriction once you've completed a brief tutorial about this policy. The next time you sign in to your eBay account, click on ?Sell? and ?Sell Your Item.? You?ll then be asked to take the tutorial. Once you've completed it, you can begin selling again immediately. __ Unfortunately, doing so is not possible so I cant even sign on. Even their emails dont make sense. So with a bit of luck, sometime in the next 7 days they will tell me what was wrong with my auctions so that I can fix it and not violate their policy - although maybe they will not because doing so might enable me to fix the problem out and circumvent their rules in the future. I plan to spend the next 7 days getting some shopping cart websites built and trying out other sites to sell stuff. Anybody got any ideas where else to list stuff? Anybody know somebody with ebay who will talk to me? Apparantly it was my pearl auctions that was somehow misrepresented but its not possible to find out why. It sgoing to be a pain relisting 1700 auctions. It probably wont get done - especially if I can figure out how to build a nice shopping cart website Cheers DEAN On a completely different note I need to come up with around $2000 in my paypal account in the next week so I am particularly into dealing from my website right now WWW.METEORITESHOP.COM so if you see anything let me know. Also, you people out there who owe me money, now is a good time to pay up. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension
Wow, that sucks man. Ebay really is such a joke anymore. They do nothing about people who sell fake meteorites unless you really give them hell, yet they do things like this. I was listing links to my website (before I even had it set up with prices and such) and Ebay pulled something like 25 of my listings about a year ago. It seems someone was reporting my listings for violating ebay policy about links... I then relisted them and included links to the Meteorite database, those were pulled becouse you could supposedly link from that to places that had meteorites for sale - that were not even mine! I have been trying to get a power seller status to reduce the costs of fees, but for someone like me that really does not sell much, its pretty hard to do - I loose something like 15-20% of my sales to fees... I wish Erics meteorite auction site would have taken off, or someone would come up with a viable ebay alternative that would do well. anyway, I hope you are able to get whatever it was worked out. It sucks ebay will suspend you but not provide better information as to the reason. Greg C. --- On Thu, 7/9/09, dean bessey deanbes...@yahoo.com wrote: From: dean bessey deanbes...@yahoo.com Subject: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension To: Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 9:29 PM As if you didnt need another reason to try and diversify your business away from ebay here is what happened to me this morning. I am not making any part of this up or in any way dramatizing what happened. Neither Stephen King nor the guys on CSI could make this up. I wake up to numerous emails from ebay this morning from ebay cancelling my auctions and two emails saying that my account was suspended. Many auctions were canceled because they were Significantly misrepresented. After 3 hours of chatting with people I finally get through to the trust and safety people after a recommendation from ebay australia. I was told that somebody (who??? - she had no way of knowing who) decided that my auctions were misrepresented. She couldent tell me what was misrepresented just that they look at the description, picture and content when deciding was what misrepresented but she had no way of knowing exactly what. So I try and reason with her. If you cant tell me what it is about my auctions that was misrepresented how can I not repeat the problem in the future? Sit down before you read her response. She said that if ebay told everybody what they look for when they decide that auctions are misrepresented then people would do things to get around their security checks in future auctions so it would be a security violation to tell me what it was about my auctions that was being misrepresented and therfore canceled (And leading to my suspension.) She then said that my suspension was for 7 days so even if she did tell me it wouldent make any difference because you cant list on ebay for 7 days again anyway. Reasoning is getting harder. OK, for my information. in seven days time when I get back on ebay again can you tell me what about my auctions was misrepresented so that I can fix them and not violate your policy in the future so I dont get kicked off again?. Sorry, telling you what the problem is would be a security violation and if people who what they looked for would do things to circumvent their rules in the future. This is going nowhere. I wish that I had a copy of that phone conversation. It would have looked good on youtube. In addition, the emails that ended the auctions said this: eBay has restricted your ability to list new items as a result of a policy violation. We'd be happy to lift this restriction once you've completed a brief tutorial about this policy. The next time you sign in to your eBay account, click on ?Sell? and ?Sell Your Item.? You?ll then be asked to take the tutorial. Once you've completed it, you can begin selling again immediately. __ Unfortunately, doing so is not possible so I cant even sign on. Even their emails dont make sense. So with a bit of luck, sometime in the next 7 days they will tell me what was wrong with my auctions so that I can fix it and not violate their policy - although maybe they will not because doing so might enable me to fix the problem out and circumvent their rules in the future. I plan to spend the next 7 days getting some shopping cart websites built and trying out other sites to sell stuff. Anybody got any ideas where else to list stuff? Anybody know somebody with ebay who will talk to me? Apparantly it was my pearl auctions that was somehow misrepresented but its not possible to find out why. It sgoing to be a pain relisting 1700 auctions. It probably wont get done - especially if I can figure out how to build a nice shopping cart website Cheers DEAN On a completely different
Re: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension
Sorry to hear about this Dean. I suggest that you write a letter to the CEO. Not an email, a letter, and send it registered mail. It may not get to the CEO, but it carries a bit more weight than an email or phone conversation with a lower CS person who know or cares very little, and is powerless to change anything. -- Richard Kowalski http://fullmoonphotography.net IMCA #1081 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension
Dean, Hello, I have heard of you many times and you have a great reputation so obviously it is not about you. I think it is likely issues with your links as well. I assume you are a power seller. We power sellers can call and if you call back you may get somebody smarter to speak with. The number that I use is a toll free 866-519-3229. and I am always able to get answers ( but may take more than one call) . It also may be a pearl seller competitor messing with you. As you know eBay these days is basically a glorified yard sale. Most dealers make much more from their own web sites. Good luck to you. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax dean bessey deanbes...@yahoo.com wrote: As if you didnt need another reason to try and diversify your business away from ebay here is what happened to me this morning. I am not making any part of this up or in any way dramatizing what happened. Neither Stephen King nor the guys on CSI could make this up. I wake up to numerous emails from ebay this morning from ebay cancelling my auctions and two emails saying that my account was suspended. Many auctions were canceled because they were Significantly misrepresented. After 3 hours of chatting with people I finally get through to the trust and safety people after a recommendation from ebay australia. I was told that somebody (who??? - she had no way of knowing who) decided that my auctions were misrepresented. She couldent tell me what was misrepresented just that they look at the description, picture and content when deciding was what misrepresented but she had no way of knowing exactly what. So I try and reason with her. If you cant tell me what it is about my auctions that was misrepresented how can I not repeat the problem in the future? Sit down before you read her response. She said that if ebay told everybody what they look for when they decide that auctions are misrepresented then people would do things to get around their security checks in future auctions so it would be a security violation to tell me what it was about my auctions that was being misrepresented and therfore canceled (And leading to my suspension.) She then said that my suspension was for 7 days so even if she did tell me it wouldent make any difference because you cant list on ebay for 7 days again anyway. Reasoning is getting harder. OK, for my information. in seven days time when I get back on ebay again can you tell me what about my auctions was misrepresented so that I can fix them and not violate your policy in the future so I dont get kicked off again?. Sorry, telling you what the problem is would be a security violation and if people who what they looked for would do things to circumvent their rules in the future. This is going nowhere. I wish that I had a copy of that phone conversation. It would have looked good on youtube. In addition, the emails that ended the auctions said this: eBay has restricted your ability to list new items as a result of a policy violation. We'd be happy to lift this restriction once you've completed a brief tutorial about this policy. The next time you sign in to your eBay account, click on ?Sell? and ?Sell Your Item.? You?ll then be asked to take the tutorial. Once you've completed it, you can begin selling again immediately. __ Unfortunately, doing so is not possible so I cant even sign on. Even their emails dont make sense. So with a bit of luck, sometime in the next 7 days they will tell me what was wrong with my auctions so that I can fix it and not violate their policy - although maybe they will not because doing so might enable me to fix the problem out and circumvent their rules in the future. I plan to spend the next 7 days getting some shopping cart websites built and trying out other sites to sell stuff. Anybody got any ideas where else to list stuff? Anybody know somebody with ebay who will talk to me? Apparantly it was my pearl auctions that was somehow misrepresented but its not possible to find out why. It sgoing to be a pain relisting 1700 auctions. It probably wont get done - especially if I can figure out how to build a nice shopping cart website Cheers DEAN On a completely different note I need to come up with around $2000 in my paypal account in the next week so I am particularly into dealing from my website right now WWW.METEORITESHOP.COM so if you see anything let me know. Also, you people out there who owe me money, now is a good time to pay up. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list
[meteorite-list] AD -TRAVEL MONEY FOR PA TRIP - GREAT BUYS!!!
Sorry for another AD before the week is up... I have reduced prices on all ebay auctions to help cover costs for my trip to serach for PA fall. I am heading out for PA in about an hour, so I may not be able to mail for a few days, please keep this in mind. Some AWESOME deals on this stuff, very nice pieces very low prices. PRICES AS LOW AS THEY CAN GO, GREAT DEALS ON SOME REALLY NICE MATERIAL!!! LINK TO MY EBAY LISTINGS http://search.ebay.com/_W0QQsassZwanderingstarmeteoritesQQhtZ-1 Greg C. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension
Many thanks Carl for the poswerseller phone number. This has caused me $100 in phone bills today but at least the powerseller people reinstated my ebay account. The downside is that I now have no auctions at all listed and because ebay ended everything I have all the details lost so have to manually list everything again - 1700 auctions. Likely most wont get relisted as I plan to put more stuff on websites and diversify from ebay. I also found out why they suspended my account. Apparantly ebay has started a new rule where tahiti pearls are no longer permitted to be listed on ebay. So, rather than just end the pearl auctions (Or better yet - inform me of the new rule) they just said that I violated their rules to often (I assume more than 4 times since I had 300 tahiti pearl auctions so I violated their listing rules 300 times) and suspended my account. So anyway, thats why I was suspended and ebay has now kissed and made up so I can list everything except pearls again now. Cheers DEAN www.meteoriteshop.com --- On Thu, 7/9/09, cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: From: cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension To: dean bessey deanbes...@yahoo.com, meteoritelist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:13 PM Dean, Hello, I have heard of you many times and you have a great reputation so obviously it is not about you. I think it is likely issues with your links as well. I assume you are a power seller. We power sellers can call and if you call back you may get somebody smarter to speak with. The number that I use is a toll free 866-519-3229. and I am always able to get answers ( but may take more than one call) . It also may be a pearl seller competitor messing with you. As you know eBay these days is basically a glorified yard sale. Most dealers make much more from their own web sites. Good luck to you. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax dean bessey deanbes...@yahoo.com wrote: As if you didnt need another reason to try and diversify your business away from ebay here is what happened to me this morning. I am not making any part of this up or in any way dramatizing what happened. Neither Stephen King nor the guys on CSI could make this up. I wake up to numerous emails from ebay this morning from ebay cancelling my auctions and two emails saying that my account was suspended. Many auctions were canceled because they were Significantly misrepresented. After 3 hours of chatting with people I finally get through to the trust and safety people after a recommendation from ebay australia. I was told that somebody (who??? - she had no way of knowing who) decided that my auctions were misrepresented. She couldent tell me what was misrepresented just that they look at the description, picture and content when deciding was what misrepresented but she had no way of knowing exactly what. So I try and reason with her. If you cant tell me what it is about my auctions that was misrepresented how can I not repeat the problem in the future? Sit down before you read her response. She said that if ebay told everybody what they look for when they decide that auctions are misrepresented then people would do things to get around their security checks in future auctions so it would be a security violation to tell me what it was about my auctions that was being misrepresented and therfore canceled (And leading to my suspension.) She then said that my suspension was for 7 days so even if she did tell me it wouldent make any difference because you cant list on ebay for 7 days again anyway. Reasoning is getting harder. OK, for my information. in seven days time when I get back on ebay again can you tell me what about my auctions was misrepresented so that I can fix them and not violate your policy in the future so I dont get kicked off again?. Sorry, telling you what the problem is would be a security violation and if people who what they looked for would do things to circumvent their rules in the future. This is going nowhere. I wish that I had a copy of that phone conversation. It would have looked good on youtube. In addition, the emails that ended the auctions said this: eBay has restricted your ability to list new items as a result of a policy violation. We'd be happy to lift this restriction once you've completed a brief tutorial about this policy. The next time you sign in to your eBay account, click on ?Sell? and ?Sell Your Item.? You?ll then be asked to take the tutorial. Once you've completed it, you can begin selling again immediately. __ Unfortunately, doing so is not possible so I cant even sign on. Even their emails dont make sense. So with a bit of luck, sometime in the next 7 days they will tell me what was wrong
Re: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension
Hi Dean and sorry to see you go through this sad case of communication malfunction and lack of professional etiquette of EBay. Your right you should of been contacted first or at the least as you said to just them removing only the pearl auctions. Let me ask you a questiondid you hold EBay to paying all your listing fees or have them allow you to list for free now that you have their explanation? Thank you. Sincerely Don Merchant IMCA # 0960 - Original Message - From: dean bessey deanbes...@yahoo.com To: meteoritelist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com; cdtuc...@cox.net Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 10:09 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension Many thanks Carl for the poswerseller phone number. This has caused me $100 in phone bills today but at least the powerseller people reinstated my ebay account. The downside is that I now have no auctions at all listed and because ebay ended everything I have all the details lost so have to manually list everything again - 1700 auctions. Likely most wont get relisted as I plan to put more stuff on websites and diversify from ebay. I also found out why they suspended my account. Apparantly ebay has started a new rule where tahiti pearls are no longer permitted to be listed on ebay. So, rather than just end the pearl auctions (Or better yet - inform me of the new rule) they just said that I violated their rules to often (I assume more than 4 times since I had 300 tahiti pearl auctions so I violated their listing rules 300 times) and suspended my account. So anyway, thats why I was suspended and ebay has now kissed and made up so I can list everything except pearls again now. Cheers DEAN www.meteoriteshop.com --- On Thu, 7/9/09, cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net wrote: From: cdtuc...@cox.net cdtuc...@cox.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] My Ebay suspension To: dean bessey deanbes...@yahoo.com, meteoritelist meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 7:13 PM Dean, Hello, I have heard of you many times and you have a great reputation so obviously it is not about you. I think it is likely issues with your links as well. I assume you are a power seller. We power sellers can call and if you call back you may get somebody smarter to speak with. The number that I use is a toll free 866-519-3229. and I am always able to get answers ( but may take more than one call) . It also may be a pearl seller competitor messing with you. As you know eBay these days is basically a glorified yard sale. Most dealers make much more from their own web sites. Good luck to you. Carl -- Carl or Debbie Esparza IMCA 5829 Meteoritemax dean bessey deanbes...@yahoo.com wrote: As if you didnt need another reason to try and diversify your business away from ebay here is what happened to me this morning. I am not making any part of this up or in any way dramatizing what happened. Neither Stephen King nor the guys on CSI could make this up. I wake up to numerous emails from ebay this morning from ebay cancelling my auctions and two emails saying that my account was suspended. Many auctions were canceled because they were Significantly misrepresented. After 3 hours of chatting with people I finally get through to the trust and safety people after a recommendation from ebay australia. I was told that somebody (who??? - she had no way of knowing who) decided that my auctions were misrepresented. She couldent tell me what was misrepresented just that they look at the description, picture and content when deciding was what misrepresented but she had no way of knowing exactly what. So I try and reason with her. If you cant tell me what it is about my auctions that was misrepresented how can I not repeat the problem in the future? Sit down before you read her response. She said that if ebay told everybody what they look for when they decide that auctions are misrepresented then people would do things to get around their security checks in future auctions so it would be a security violation to tell me what it was about my auctions that was being misrepresented and therfore canceled (And leading to my suspension.) She then said that my suspension was for 7 days so even if she did tell me it wouldent make any difference because you cant list on ebay for 7 days again anyway. Reasoning is getting harder. OK, for my information. in seven days time when I get back on ebay again can you tell me what about my auctions was misrepresented so that I can fix them and not violate your policy in the future so I dont get kicked off again?. Sorry, telling you what the problem is would be a security violation and if people who what they looked for would do things to circumvent their rules in the future. This is going nowhere. I wish that I had a copy of that phone conversation. It would have looked good on youtube. In addition, the emails that ended the auctions said this: eBay
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
. and some people may wonder why some of the strewn fields are kept secret Best Wishes Michael Cottingham On Jul 8, 2009, at 10:54 PM, drtanuki wrote: Forwarding for Ruben. --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Ruben Garcia meteoritem...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Ruben Garcia meteoritem...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA To: drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com, cyna...@charter.net, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:41 PM Hi guys, I'm pretty sure I can't post to this list - at least that has been the case for a few weeks now. I did CC the list though. Dirk, What you must understand is what you say and what gets printed are nearly always two different things. I never said anything about Treasure not one word. Nor did I say that an actual fossil would be found. What I said was that maybe one day signs of life (from other planets ) may be found on a fresh fall such as this. She must have assumed fossil. However, this quote is pretty much what I said Some of the meteorites are sold to collectors, Garcia said. Some also trade and barter for pieces. I don't know why that is bad or inaccurate That is what we do. Right? She pressed me on what they were worth and I said NOTHING. But I do understand what Steve said and I agree with him What else could he have said when pressed? Oh ya, We did not call the press! We only called York water to get a look at the camera. She (the reporter) called York water also to look at their camera. Jeff from York told her when we would be there as he didn't have time to entertain her, then Steve, then us- so he did it all at once... Since I can't respond to the entire list can you or Darrin please post this? Ruben Garcia Phoenix, Arizona My Website: http://www.Mr-Meteorite.Net My Articles: http://www.meteorite.com/blog/ My Videos: http://www.youtube.com/profile_videos?user=meteorfrightp=v From: drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com To: cyna...@charter.net; meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2009 10:03:34 PM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA Dear Darren and List, Darren wrote: (And the makings of another circus, with all the press): Circus indeed with a title of Meteorite hunters looking for treasure in York County. Treasure hunters again!!!...this leaves a bad taste in one`s mouth for people in meteorites! When will the meteorite hunters get the advertisement of treasure hunting and act professional or at least correct the press before it goes to print? Great quotes!... Garcia said. For example, a fossil might be found inside. Some of the meteorites are sold to collectors, Garcia said. Some also trade and barter for pieces. Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram, depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. Another Pirate show? Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- On Thu, 7/9/09, Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net wrote: From: Darren Garrison cyna...@charter.net Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:40 PM Security camera video. (And the makings of another circus, with all the press): http://ydr.inyork.com/ci_12790056 __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
Hey All, Just for everyone's information, I personally think that if at least two good video's can be found from two different locations, the intersection can be found where the MD-PA bolide extinguished. That should be the heart of the strewnfield. My primary purpose in going ahead and talking with the media today was to solicit people to check the recordings from the security cameras. There is a tiny widow of opportunity to get the media to cooperate when making such a request, then quickly all interest will be lost. If this ground was easy to search (not massive amount of green, trees, grass, weeds, crops, hills, rivers and such) it might be easy for a few people to search hundreds of square miles in a short period of time. This is a fall that will need to get the bulls eye identified real close or I am afraid it will be a lost cause. And I am not certain, but actually having some of the locals look, might not be a bad thing. If because of some media exposure, some people start looking down, it is a bad thing? A few thousand people taking a little time to check out the ground might do better than a couple dozen professional hunters could do in a few weeks time. Once the heart of the potential area can be ascertained, then at least there will be a shot that something might be found. There is always a risk when dealing with the media that things will be misconstrued, but object number one is to find where the meteorites are. Then, if and when that happens, we can worry about dealing with a land owner that might find one and thinks it is worth more than it really is. I would rather have a land owner look and find one and not want to sell it, than not to look and not to find it, especially if it might be the first one. I suppose when I was pressed I could have said Meteorites are worth $1/g. But then I run the risk that someone will accuse me of trying to steal meteorites for too little. I could say Meteorites are worth $100/g. then if someone find ones, and I only offer a fraction of that for it, then I am accused of over stating what they are worth. I could say I don't know what meteorites are worth and I would have looked like a fool, since as a professional I probably should know what meteorites are worth. I told both reporters that were there when I arrived tonight, that meteorites can be very cheap, as low as $0.05/g while ultra rare meteorites, like ones from the Moon, can be worth up around $1,000/g. Totally true statements. Somehow Reuben squirmed out of not answering that question. Good for him. I tried to qualify my statements when I made them, as I wanted to be honest. I am also keenly aware that fireball events like this have an opportunity to attract new collectors to the market. In fact, while it is possible no meteorites will be found here, I would bet some new collectors will be found. Being honest and letting people know that there is a real collectors market out there, I feel is a good thing. I intentionally stayed away from saying I will pay $10,000 for the first pound recovered or anything like that, and stayed on focus that I was looking for more footage from various areas to do the triangulation. I made no offer to buy any meteorites if someone else found them, just that I was on the hunt myself. I know I can't make everyone happy, but I am doing what I think I need to do to locate the strewnfield in this particular case. Steve Arnold of Meteorite Men **Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies
Mark, I would like to answer some of your allegations if I may and perhaps open a debate about where collected material goes. There seems to be a rather broad misconception about museums and their collections. Let me just start by saying that collectors have made an inestimable contribution to the furtherance of science. There is no disputing this. As science developed from the late 17th Century, collectors and explorers went out into the wide world to search for the unusual, exotic and unseen. Of course this material went to universities and museums, where else could it go? It was these fast developing institutions that were at the cutting edge of scientific research up to and beyond the Victorian Age. There were private collectors, but they were often former academics and almost certainly university educated. At their deaths, universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and many private collections came into public hands this way. It also has to be remembered that museum collections, including our own, were originally set-up as teaching collections. There was no real market place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices were lower - comparatively. The clientele, such as it was, was also largely middle- or upper-class and financially very well off. However, the notion that there is a flow of newly found material into museums is not entirely true. I do not work in an artefact-based department. It would therefore be unfair of me to comment to any great degree on their collecting policies. As I stated above, much of the material in museum drawers are donated/bequeathed objects or collections acquired by purchase. In any collection, there is a variable proportion of material that can be described as contextless or difficult. But what may at the time be considered of lesser value may after subsequent research prove to be of greater value. It is on that basis museums often appear to hoard excess material. It is also often the case that once material is registered, it is very difficult and, I would personally add undesirable, to sell-off this material. If this material is contextless, then it can surely have no value in the market place anyway. Would you buy a shapeless lump of rock or pottery whose only provenance is found in museum drawer? On the scientific side, the value of an object can be viewed differently. As a mineralogist, as well as the obvious aesthetic qualities of some objects, there is also the scientific value. Some of the rarest and most precious of our objects are (to an aesthete) uninspiring and dull. Yet to a mineralogist, they may be the finest examples of a mineral species in the World. As for a never-ending flow of objects disappearing into museum collections. Let me assure you that if this is happening, then it is being done by elves at night when there are no museum staff around. As far as owning the objects. Well in that sense the museums doesn't own the specimens. The people of Scotland own them, all five million of us, and they are available for viewing either in galleries, online or by appointment for free. You only have to ask. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.david...@nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Mark Ford Sent: 08 July 2009 16:01 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Also we should never underestimate the contribution made to science by collectors! This is particularly true of meteorites, if no-one collected them, and created the resources needed for hunting them, our museum draws would actually be much emptier I suspect - Yes the market price would (arguably) be a little bit lower but how exactly does that help find more meteorites?? Imho, one of the reasons the market prices keep going up (particularly with historic artifacts) is newly found stuff simply flows in one direction into museum collections and archives. further limiting the market availability, this will only get worse if the supply of material to collectors gets even further choked off, by stupid blanket laws - for example if museums where allowed to trade and sell off some of the artifacts that are not needed then the market value would drop to sensible levels. (Ironically, there are countless thousands of useless orphaned contextless artifacts, that can serve no useful purpose sitting in museum draws all over the world, some are probably worth a small fortune on the open market - surely we should consider using some of this to fund much more important work, before we target private collectors). I believe we actually all have a personal responsibility to only keep and collect what we actually need to collect, museums included, that way
Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies
Hi Peter, I understand your point, and I agree with what you are saying entirely, and I am obviously not advocating a great sell off of important museum items (that would be tragic), but is it not the case that pretty much all new material recovered from archeological digs is kept and stored? - (granted perhaps not always specifically in museums, as there are many groups involved with artifact retrieval), but it just seems a shame to me, that however well meaning, to me so much material is still 'seemingly' locked beyond (easy) public access, as there is only a very very small amount of public display space at the end of the day (this is the route by which 99.999% of the public have access to material). You curators do a truly wonderful job, and are always very keen to allow access, no question of that. I think the problem is probably one of public education and perception, most of the public have no idea if their local museum would let them route around in their collections, and most have no way of knowing what is even in their local collections. If they could sort the inevitable security problems out, I'd love to see meteorites and other items on display around places like the London underground, or at my local supermarket, or in my local high street.. why not? Best, Mark -Original Message- From: meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com [mailto:meteorite-list-boun...@meteoritecentral.com] On Behalf Of Peter Davidson Sent: 09 July 2009 09:23 To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Mark, I would like to answer some of your allegations if I may and perhaps open a debate about where collected material goes. There seems to be a rather broad misconception about museums and their collections. Let me just start by saying that collectors have made an inestimable contribution to the furtherance of science. There is no disputing this. As science developed from the late 17th Century, collectors and explorers went out into the wide world to search for the unusual, exotic and unseen. Of course this material went to universities and museums, where else could it go? It was these fast developing institutions that were at the cutting edge of scientific research up to and beyond the Victorian Age. There were private collectors, but they were often former academics and almost certainly university educated. At their deaths, universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and many private collections came into public hands this way. It also has to be remembered that museum collections, including our own, were originally set-up as teaching collections. There was no real market place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices were lower - comparatively. The clientele, such as it was, was also largely middle- or upper-class and financially very well off. However, the notion that there is a flow of newly found material into museums is not entirely true. I do not work in an artefact-based department. It would therefore be unfair of me to comment to any great degree on their collecting policies. As I stated above, much of the material in museum drawers are donated/bequeathed objects or collections acquired by purchase. In any collection, there is a variable proportion of material that can be described as contextless or difficult. But what may at the time be considered of lesser value may after subsequent research prove to be of greater value. It is on that basis museums often appear to hoard excess material. It is also often the case that once material is registered, it is very difficult and, I would personally add undesirable, to sell-off this material. If this material is contextless, then it can surely have no value in the market place anyway. Would you buy a shapeless lump of rock or pottery whose only provenance is found in museum drawer? On the scientific side, the value of an object can be viewed differently. As a mineralogist, as well as the obvious aesthetic qualities of some objects, there is also the scientific value. Some of the rarest and most precious of our objects are (to an aesthete) uninspiring and dull. Yet to a mineralogist, they may be the finest examples of a mineral species in the World. As for a never-ending flow of objects disappearing into museum collections. Let me assure you that if this is happening, then it is being done by elves at night when there are no museum staff around. As far as owning the objects. Well in that sense the museums doesn't own the specimens. The people of Scotland own them, all five million of us, and they are available for viewing either in galleries, online or by appointment for free. You only have to ask. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.david...@nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From:
Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
Dear Steve, Thank you for your, Ruben`s and other`s efforts in searching for the Penn. meteorite! Regarding what a meteorite is worth it is worth what you or someone is willing to pay, so I suggest that you re-phrase the question to the reporter when asked, and reply that I am willing to pay up to... (or a realistic price) range. No dealer is likely to pay $1000/gr in the field for any fall unless it is extremely extremely rare and even then highly unlikely, as you should know. Setting unrealistic prices in the news creates unrealistic expectations. Maybe preparing in advance a press release for the press is important for reducing incorrect quotes? Beyond the above, I have no comments. Best in your and others successful hunt! Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- On Thu, 7/9/09, meteorh...@aol.com meteorh...@aol.com wrote: From: meteorh...@aol.com meteorh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA To: drtan...@yahoo.com, cyna...@charter.net, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 2:12 PM Dirk, Yea, it is hard to answer the question: What are meteorites worth? Personally I don't like to lie to people and say they are not worth anything. Especially when a simple search on ebay will show that meteorites are indeed worth from around 5 cents a gram up to $1,000 a gram. When the reporters pressed me how much these would be worth, I refused to give a number. I told them I didn't know, and there were too many factors that would determine what they are worth. So I guess they went with the simple shorter quote. I am not sure what you mean by Anther Pirate show? Would you expound? Steve Arnold In a message dated 7/9/2009 12:03:44 A.M. Central Daylight Time, drtan...@yahoo.com writes: Meteorites are worth 5 cents a gram to $1,000 a gram, depending on how rare they are, Arnold said. Another Pirate show? **Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] Rocks from Space Picture of the Day - July 9, 2009
http://www.rocksfromspace.org/July_9_2009.html __ **Looking for love this summer? Find it now on AOL Personals. (http://personals.aol.com/?ncid=emlcntuslove0003) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies
Mike Thanks for the welcome. I am beginning to feel a little punch-drunk! As a married father (2 teenage daughters) I fully understand what you are saying. Unfortunately, I don't know where you live so I cannot give you any specific advice on who to contact. Certainly trawl through the net to see of there is a museum with a mineral/meteorite collection close to you. Most museums have a web page and will give you an opportunity to contact them. Depending on the museum, they may, or may not have someone on the staff to answer your question or enquiry. If not they may refer you to a larger institution. If your local museum has a collection, but no curator, why not investigate the possibility of undertaking voluntary work? All museums, even national institutions, rely to a greater or lesser degree on the dedicated work volunteers put in. If you feel you have knowledge and/or expertise that the museum could benefit by, why not give it a go. The rules that govern the exchange of material depends on the institution and the material available. I can confirm that we have no meteorite material that we can use for exchange, but we do have some minerals that are available. But the possibility for exchange can vary between museums and between countries. You would need to check this out. Certainly a posting on a list such as meteorite-list might help to alert people. Finally, I agree wholeheartedly that it can only be of benefit to everyone if there is open and honest discussion between museums/curators and collectors/dealers. In my experience, most people are more than happy to co-operate. But there is a widespread misconception about public bodies and this is often hard to dispel. Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.david...@nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: Galactic Stone Ironworks [mailto:meteoritem...@gmail.com] Sent: 08 July 2009 17:05 To: Peter Davidson Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Hi Peter, Welcome to the List. :) I do not speak for the list or a majority on it, so take my reply with the appropriate grain (or block) of salt. ;) I am an avid collector of meteorites and minerals (primarily meteorites), and I am also a happily married man. I mention the fact that I am married because there are parallels between the position of the married collector and the curator. I too operate within a strict budget and a set of rules that governs my ability to acquire and trade specimens. I do not mean to make light of the matter, but simply to say that I understand the necessity of balancing budget concerns and working within a framework of acceptable trading practices. Some wealthier collectors don't have this concern or it manifests to a lesser degree in their collecting. I want to thank you for taking the time to speak up and share your views on this issue as it effects the meteorite world. Speaking strictly as a collector, I would have little idea how to contact a museum or curator to begin establishing a working relationship that could include the exchange of specimens. The bigger and more established dealers are not going to broadcast their methods and connections to the rest of the world, so the next generation of major collectors is left in a position of ignorance regarding how to conduct business with museums and institutions. We either figure it out ourselves through trial and error, or we rely on the bigger and better-connected dealers to trade with the museums and then wait for the specimens to trickle down through the open marketplace. For example, how does a private collector approach a curator to open a dialogue? Does one just Google the museum and get a street address, phone number, or email address? And then contact the curator directly? Many private collectors think such direct contact would be frowned upon because the private collector may not have any official credentials - academic or otherwise. We would not want to waste the curator's time or make trouble for the museum staff. Also, I don't have any idea what kind of rules govern the trade between private individuals and museums/institutions. For example, I have a list of trading partners I have cultivated during my time of collecting. We often exchange specimens and the method involves the honor system. If I say to my private trading partner - I really like your slice of Barwell L5 chondrite, would you accept this fragment of Wold Cottage in trade for it? - and if the deal is agreed upon, we simply pack up the specimen and mail it to the other party. There is no escrow or legal contacts involved - simply a gentleman's agreement that each person will live up to their end of the bargain. At any point, one person could fail to live up to their part and steal the other party's specimen - it's a risk of trading in
Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies
James Thanks for the welcome and for the message of support. In list such as this, it is often difficult to get a balanced view because there are obviously many, many more collectors and dealers than there are curators. But that does not mean our voices should not be heard. I agree that I did not answer some of Martin's points, and in particular his analysis of the Australian and American finds. Using the data that Martin gives in his email, it is clear that there is a clear correlation between the increase in the number of finds coming onto the market and the imposition of the restrictive law. This is a perfectly valid argument. I did not raise any counter-argument because I accept the figures are true and I therefore cannot dispute these with a different set of figures that show a different position. This situation exists in many areas of life and is no less true of the mineral market, than it is of the meteorite market. The price of minerals or meteorites is rising all the time, and as prices rise, so the number of collectors and dealers that are active rises. The result is a steep rise in the material coming onto the market. This is fine as long as the market can support this situation, but as everyone knows, the property market upon which our banks build up their empires eventually collapsed and thus we have arrived at the current financial crisis (simplistic I know). Peter Davidson Curator of Minerals National Museums Collection Centre National Museums Scotland 242 West Granton Road Edinburgh EH5 1JA Phone: +44 131 247 4283 p.david...@nms.ac.uk www.nms.ac.uk -Original Message- From: James Baxter [mailto:jbaxter...@pol.net] Sent: 08 July 2009 17:09 To: Peter Davidson Cc: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Hello Peter, Welcome to the list. Thanks for your contribution. It is nice to get a curator's perspective. I'm sure most if not all list members are envious of your job and support your work. I do feel you have not answered Martin's central argument that if laws prohibiting export were not in place your Australian colleagues would have far more material to study through dealer and collector contributions and trades. As a humble private collector I like to think I am supporting (or at least not depriving) the public institutions' collections. I know many of the dealers I support with my purchases have donated or traded large amounts of material to public institutions. This may be simple rationalization, but I do feel Martin's numbers regarding finds in the US compared to Australia imply that we collectors are likely increasing rather than decreasing the amount of material available to these institutions. I would love to hear your thoughts about whether you feel this argument is valid. Best Wishes, Jim Baxter - Original Message - From: Peter Davidson p.david...@nms.ac.uk To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Wednesday, July 8, 2009 4:02:08 AM GMT -08:00 US/Canada Pacific Subject: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies This is my first posting on this list - please be gentle with me. I have only been on the list a matter of a week or so and I seemed to have walked into a veritable storm. I would like to share my views with you as a curator. Please forgive this rather long mail. Taking a posting from Martin Altmann dated 7th July as my starting point, here goes. I have never heard a law being described as exotic. Do you mean idiotic? I can in no way speak on behalf of all curators, far less Australian ones. I can only give you my own viewpoint but I do know many curators from Australia, mostly mineralogists, and please believe me when I tell you they are fine people and not the narrow-minded, nationalistic people hinted at in a number of e-mails. I also noted that Martin Altmann stated that everybody on the list was a lousy layman which is not only patently untrue but just a little sexist. But I digress. Curators are every bit as dedicated to their collections as private collectors are. We are not faceless bureaucrats (or similar) existing in some Kafkaesque nightmare world hidebound by rules, and seeking to restrict everyone else by creating a spider's web of red tape to trap the unwary. That notion is as ridiculous to me as the presumption that all dealers (minerals or meteorites) are shady and unscrupulous. As a curator at a National Museum, I am obligated by law (yes, I know!) to preserve and protect the collections of the museum and by extension, the nation. I choose to do this. I work in the museum because I want to. Every curator I have met shares with me a love of the specimens that they curate. We also share a passionate believe that it is our duty to bring our collections to the notice and attention of the public, and to make them available to researchers and other curators. Believe me when I tell you that museum curators/conservators are
[meteorite-list] Ad : Cheap 6300 gr lot of Ordinary Chondrites
Hi All I am offering a Lot of 6300 gr Ordinary Chondrites for cheap price , if interested , feel free to contact me to provide photos. Best Regards M.Youssef __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
In a message dated 7/9/2009 4:46:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time, drtan...@yahoo.com writes: Regarding what a meteorite is worth it is worth what you or someone is willing to pay, so I suggest that you re-phrase the question to the reporter when asked, and reply that I am willing to pay up to... (or a realistic price) range. Dirk, The problem is that I am not willing to pay anything for a meteorite, at least not now. I didn't come here to buy a meteorite. And as such, I didn't talk to the media about buying one. I was asking for people to check their video and to come forward if they had any footage with the fireball. The reporters didn't ask me what I was willing to pay. They asked me somewhere in the context of All this effort,spent time and money, to come up here and do all this work, are meteorites worth it? Which I answered with the normal response of how they can be valuable to science, bla, bla, bla, and that museums and researchers and private collectors are interested, bla, bla, bla. And then I was asked Well, what are meteorites worth? And, even if I was wanting to buy a meteorite, I still would not quote a price, because I don't give quotes for purchase when I don't know how big it is, what condition it is in, or the supply and demand factors involved at the moment of making the offer. All that can change, and about the only thing certain, is that when the time might come to make a real offer on a real meteorite, I would most likely be willing to pay more or less, maybe far more or far less than any quote I would give back in the hypothetical stage. Again, the question to me wasn't what I was willing to pay, but what meteorites are worth. Now, I have some work to do, and some rocks to go find. Have a nice day. Steve Arnold of Meteorite Men **Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
A strewn field can be at any orientation with respect to the original meteor path, and can lie some miles from the terminal explosion location, depending on the height of the explosion and the winds. It is very difficult to determine where meteorites will land, even with accurate video records and good weather data (from a weather balloon). At best, you can narrow it down to a few tens of square miles. After that, it's back to the tried and true: interviewing people on the ground, and searching. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that a large fireball, even with a terminal explosion, is very likely to produce no meteorites at all. Better camera data can help access the likelihood of that by helping to narrow down the entry angle and velocity. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: meteorh...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 1:37 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA Hey All, Just for everyone's information, I personally think that if at least two good video's can be found from two different locations, the intersection can be found where the MD-PA bolide extinguished. That should be the heart of the strewnfield. __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] PA Seismic Data files
Dear List, I have the seismic data files for the Pennsylvania meteor event. Does anyone on this list have experience in using GSE2.1 files and SeisGram2K viewer? Thank you in advance. Please contact me off list. Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies
Peter, please allow me, that I dare to disagree, at one point only. (haven't recovered yet). At their deaths, universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and many private collections came into public hands this way. There was no real market place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices were lower - comparatively. I come to a somewhat different result at least on the field of meteorites. Meteorites, not so surprising, were and are rare. Most of the largest institutional meteorite collections of the world, Acquired most of their meteorites from private persons. New falls anyway, cause in most cases no officer of the crown war at hand, when a meteorite decided to fall... no, more seriously, the collections grew and some started at all by the means of donations of private collections, but also more by the purchase of collections from private collectors and, not so surprisingly, by the purchase from museums/geological/ meteorite dealers! And they were regularly buying from meteorite dealers ever then. That some collections nowadays don't or can't buy meteorites anymore, is rather a very recent phenomenon. Only a few examples. Chicago Field - they started with meteorites, when they bought the complete display of Henry Augustus Ward from the Columbian Exhibition in 1893. Henry Ward was a commercial dealer of museum display items and he was a meteorite dealer, the biggest of his times in USA. After his death, in 1912 there was a bidding race between the AMNH in New York, the Smithonian and Chicago Field to purchase Ward's private collection. And Chicago won and paid 1.8 million of USD (inflation adjusted) to the heirs. Let's stay in Chicago - the Adler Planetarium has a fine meteorite collection. Max Adler naturally hadn't found them by his own, he naturally purchased them and he purchased them from a dealer, Anton Mensing. How London in your country started? In 1810 they purchased the Greville-collection for more than 1 million USD. Maskelyne afterwards extended the meteorite collection excessively with more than 200 locales - most of them he purchased from August Krantz. August Krantz was nothing else than a commercial dealer, running a geological warehouse (the firm still exists). All important museums were buying from Krantz. What Koser is today for Campo, Krantz was at his times for Pultusk. And these were also the times, of the sometimes almost ruinous races between the top collections of the world, where they spend really large sums to purchase meteorites. Fletcher - you know it buy your own, the funny anecdote how he achieved to buy the Crumlin fall, in bribing the niece of the private owner in paying her an organon, hoping she would persuade her uncle to sell to him. Of course Fletcher was buying too. Hey - who later was also in the UNESCO working group for meteorites, where, if you read the first report, it was for them in that group a matter of course, that there exist meteorite dealers to buy from - Hey bought a part of the collection from a certain meteorite dealer, named Nininger. The sources differ, some say it was half, others a third, others a fifth of the collection (I guess it's only differently counted, by weight, by number of specimens, by number of locales). He paid more than 1 million USD. I'm to lazy to look, what did the wive of Peary got from the AMNH for Cape York? Ah let me search though... I read 40,000$ in 1904 - inflation calculator says: is 912022.77$ in 2007 Hey dealers on the list here, hands up, when did you have your last 900,000$ sale? Enough examples - let's recommend rather a good read, Peter The history of meteoritics and key meteorite collections By Gerald Joseph Home McCall, A. J. Bowden, Richard John Howarth There the members could find many examples more. In my eyes hence it's an illusion, that meteorites were in former times mainly donated to the top collections, that there was no market and that they were cheaper than today. The price lists of Krantz, of Ward, of the Foote Company, of Nininger, Huss, Zeitschel they still do exist. So we can prove that meteorites are today much much much much much more cheaper than ever - and that solely due to the increased activities of the private meteorite hunters and dealers. In fact the only real historical bargain I can remember, was when NIPR in Tokyo, purchased the collection of meteorite dealer Walter Zeitschel (the largest private meteorite collection of these times). The price was obscenely low. Greetings to Walter, who is currently in hospital again. Peter, Mark! - do you remember the trade formula Wuelfing developed for the curators helping to estimate the right trade ratios of 2 locales, when they swap? Emil Cohen (the one from the cohenite) tested then whether this formula is reflected in the actual - please forgive me, I don't know how to say it else - how they are reflected in the market prices of his days. For that purpose he published a
Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
Dear Steve and List, Your answer points to the need of an advance-prepared press release so that reporters get their facts straight and so that there is less chance of a mis-quote. Reporters are infamous for making headlines and ignoring the facts. Good use of the reporter and news to get the word out for video evidence. Have a great day in your hunt! Best, Dirk Ross...Tokyo --- On Thu, 7/9/09, meteorh...@aol.com meteorh...@aol.com wrote: From: meteorh...@aol.com meteorh...@aol.com Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] - witness to July 6 Fireball PA To: drtan...@yahoo.com, meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thursday, July 9, 2009, 10:23 PM In a message dated 7/9/2009 4:46:27 A.M. Central Daylight Time, drtan...@yahoo.com writes: Regarding what a meteorite is worth it is worth what you or someone is willing to pay, so I suggest that you re-phrase the question to the reporter when asked, and reply that I am willing to pay up to... (or a realistic price) range. Dirk, The problem is that I am not willing to pay anything for a meteorite, at least not now. I didn't come here to buy a meteorite. And as such, I didn't talk to the media about buying one. I was asking for people to check their video and to come forward if they had any footage with the fireball. The reporters didn't ask me what I was willing to pay. They asked me somewhere in the context of All this effort,spent time and money, to come up here and do all this work, are meteorites worth it? Which I answered with the normal response of how they can be valuable to science, bla, bla, bla, and that museums and researchers and private collectors are interested, bla, bla, bla. And then I was asked Well, what are meteorites worth? And, even if I was wanting to buy a meteorite, I still would not quote a price, because I don't give quotes for purchase when I don't know how big it is, what condition it is in, or the supply and demand factors involved at the moment of making the offer. All that can change, and about the only thing certain, is that when the time might come to make a real offer on a real meteorite, I would most likely be willing to pay more or less, maybe far more or far less than any quote I would give back in the hypothetical stage. Again, the question to me wasn't what I was willing to pay, but what meteorites are worth. Now, I have some work to do, and some rocks to go find. Have a nice day. Steve Arnold of Meteorite Men **Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
Chris, I agree to a point. But if one has some good video, there is nothing even the best eye witness of a 1 am fireball could add. Once it goes dark, there is nothing to see to report on. Maybe if it was a day time fireball, someone might see a stone hitting the ground, but not at night. The burn out spot is as close as we can get, then it is time to walk, or to ask, via the media, for other people to look in that area. Of course even more camera info can only help beyond just finding the landing zone. Steve In a message dated 7/9/2009 8:59:39 A.M. Central Daylight Time, c...@alumni.caltech.edu writes: A strewn field can be at any orientation with respect to the original meteor path, and can lie some miles from the terminal explosion location, depending on the height of the explosion and the winds. It is very difficult to determine where meteorites will land, even with accurate video records and good weather data (from a weather balloon). At best, you can narrow it down to a few tens of square miles. After that, it's back to the tried and true: interviewing people on the ground, and searching. Also, it shouldn't be overlooked that a large fireball, even with a terminal explosion, is very likely to produce no meteorites at all. Better camera data can help access the likelihood of that by helping to narrow down the entry angle and velocity. Chris **Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
[meteorite-list] How far away can a meteor be heard?
List, I have the answer for thunder but not a meteor (I am guessing that they are about the same? 10miles or 16km Chris or anyone care to give the correct answer? Thanks! Thunder contains a somewhat cylindrical initial pressure shock wave along the lightning channel in excess of 10 times the normal atmospheric pressure. This shock wave decays rapidly into a sound wave within feet or meters. When thunder is heard from about 328 feet (100 m) distance, it consists of one large bang, yet hissing and clicking may be heard just prior to the bang (upward streamers). When heard at .6 mile (1 km) from lightning, thunder will rumble with several loud claps. Thunder is seldom heard beyond 10 miles (16 km) under ideal conditions. The sound of distant thunder has a characteristic low-pitched rumbling sound. Pitch, the degree of highness or lowness of a sound, is due to strong absorption and scattering of high-frequency components of the original sound waves, while the rumbling results from the fact that sound waves are emitted from different locations along the lightning channel, which lie at varying distances from a person. The longer the lightning channels, the longer the sound of thunder. Humans hear frequencies of thunder between 20-120 Hertz (Hz). However, there is a small amount, less than 10%, that is inaudible to humans produced from lightning, called infrasonic. Special listening devices are required to record these inaudible sounds. Sources: http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_info/thunder2.html Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
No, witness reports continue to be a big help. In particular, reports about sonic booms can be very helpful. It has been observed in many cases that these tend to be heard only near the fall zone, and this has proved very useful for a number of meteorite hunters. If you have good information about the location of the terminal explosion, the next step is to interview people on the ground in an effort to narrow down the search area. There should be good radiosonde data available in most places as well. Once the height of the terminal explosion is determined, this should be used to model the dark flight. This data can be the difference between an uncertainty on the ground of a few square miles versus hundreds of square miles. Chris * Chris L Peterson Cloudbait Observatory http://www.cloudbait.com - Original Message - From: meteorh...@aol.com To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Sent: Thursday, July 09, 2009 8:33 AM Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA Chris, I agree to a point. But if one has some good video, there is nothing even the best eye witness of a 1 am fireball could add. Once it goes dark, there is nothing to see to report on. Maybe if it was a day time fireball, someone might see a stone hitting the ground, but not at night. The burn out spot is as close as we can get, then it is time to walk, or to ask, via the media, for other people to look in that area. Of course even more camera info can only help beyond just finding the landing zone. Steve __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] Fw: Re: - witness to July 6 Fireball PA
Chris, How fast is a meteoroid going when it burns out? And at what point in the flight does it go below the speed of the sound barrier? I might have been mistaken, but I thought really close to the point of dark flight it slowed down where the sonic booms stopped being crated as well. Also, which meteorites in the past do you have record of that traveled extensively beyond the burn out point? And how far beyond that point have meteorites continued to fly? Of course with a 20 mile long strewnfield, the distance of the burn out spot from the leading and trailing edge could differ greatly. Steve In a message dated 7/9/2009 9:45:16 A.M. Central Daylight Time, c...@alumni.caltech.edu writes: No, witness reports continue to be a big help. In particular, reports about sonic booms can be very helpful. It has been observed in many cases that these tend to be heard only near the fall zone, and this has proved very useful for a number of meteorite hunters. If you have good information about the location of the terminal explosion, the next step is to interview people on the ground in an effort to narrow down the search area. There should be good radiosonde data available in most places as well. Once the height of the terminal explosion is determined, this should be used to model the dark flight. This data can be the difference between an uncertainty on the ground of a few square miles versus hundreds of square miles. **Dell Studio XPS Desktop: Save up to $400 - Limited Time Offer (http://pr.atwola.com/promoclk/100126575x1222466512x1201463496/aol?redir=htt p:%2F%2Faltfarm.mediaplex.com%2Fad%2Fck%2F12309%2D81939%2D1629%2D3) __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies
Good Morning list, I for one love to read Martin Altmann's post for all the knowledge and effort he puts into them! I believe this one has such good information it should be put in one of the future Meteorite Magazine. What do you think Mr. Lebofsky? :-) With best regards, Moni From: altm...@meteorite-martin.de To: meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com Date: Thu, 9 Jul 2009 16:02:31 +0200 Subject: Re: [meteorite-list] A Curator Replies Peter, please allow me, that I dare to disagree, at one point only. (haven't recovered yet). At their deaths, universities and museum were often the beneficiaries of their wills and many private collections came into public hands this way. There was no real market place for geological specimens in the sense we know it today, so prices were lower - comparatively. I come to a somewhat different result at least on the field of meteorites. Meteorites, not so surprising, were and are rare. Most of the largest institutional meteorite collections of the world, Acquired most of their meteorites from private persons. New falls anyway, cause in most cases no officer of the crown war at hand, when a meteorite decided to fall... no, more seriously, the collections grew and some started at all by the means of donations of private collections, but also more by the purchase of collections from private collectors and, not so surprisingly, by the purchase from museums/geological/ meteorite dealers! And they were regularly buying from meteorite dealers ever then. That some collections nowadays don't or can't buy meteorites anymore, is rather a very recent phenomenon. Only a few examples. Chicago Field - they started with meteorites, when they bought the complete display of Henry Augustus Ward from the Columbian Exhibition in 1893. Henry Ward was a commercial dealer of museum display items and he was a meteorite dealer, the biggest of his times in USA. After his death, in 1912 there was a bidding race between the AMNH in New York, the Smithonian and Chicago Field to purchase Ward's private collection. And Chicago won and paid 1.8 million of USD (inflation adjusted) to the heirs. Let's stay in Chicago - the Adler Planetarium has a fine meteorite collection. Max Adler naturally hadn't found them by his own, he naturally purchased them and he purchased them from a dealer, Anton Mensing. How London in your country started? In 1810 they purchased the Greville-collection for more than 1 million USD. Maskelyne afterwards extended the meteorite collection excessively with more than 200 locales - most of them he purchased from August Krantz. August Krantz was nothing else than a commercial dealer, running a geological warehouse (the firm still exists). All important museums were buying from Krantz. What Koser is today for Campo, Krantz was at his times for Pultusk. And these were also the times, of the sometimes almost ruinous races between the top collections of the world, where they spend really large sums to purchase meteorites. Fletcher - you know it buy your own, the funny anecdote how he achieved to buy the Crumlin fall, in bribing the niece of the private owner in paying her an organon, hoping she would persuade her uncle to sell to him. Of course Fletcher was buying too. Hey - who later was also in the UNESCO working group for meteorites, where, if you read the first report, it was for them in that group a matter of course, that there exist meteorite dealers to buy from - Hey bought a part of the collection from a certain meteorite dealer, named Nininger. The sources differ, some say it was half, others a third, others a fifth of the collection (I guess it's only differently counted, by weight, by number of specimens, by number of locales). He paid more than 1 million USD. I'm to lazy to look, what did the wive of Peary got from the AMNH for Cape York? Ah let me search though... I read 40,000$ in 1904 - inflation calculator says: is 912022.77$ in 2007 Hey dealers on the list here, hands up, when did you have your last 900,000$ sale? Enough examples - let's recommend rather a good read, Peter The history of meteoritics and key meteorite collections By Gerald Joseph Home McCall, A. J. Bowden, Richard John Howarth There the members could find many examples more. In my eyes hence it's an illusion, that meteorites were in former times mainly donated to the top collections, that there was no market and that they were cheaper than today. The price lists of Krantz, of Ward, of the Foote Company, of Nininger, Huss, Zeitschel they still do exist. So we can prove that meteorites are today much much much much much more cheaper than ever - and that solely due to the increased activities of the private meteorite hunters and dealers. In fact the only real historical bargain I can remember, was when NIPR in Tokyo, purchased the collection of meteorite dealer Walter Zeitschel (the largest
[meteorite-list] Meteoritehunter fights with Museum
http://www.sta.si/en/vest.php?s=aid=1408119 and you guys wonder why we want to keep the location of the new AZ fall secret. Michael Farmer __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
Re: [meteorite-list] How far away can a meteor be heard?
That¹s a good question. There's one major difference between a meteor-produced sonic boom and thunder - altitude. Most thunderstorms occur below 10 km altitude while fireballs occur well up in the 20-30 km range. That means that the fireball should propagate to a wider area, but it seems in practice that their sonic booms are highly directional. I think its a bit of an apples-to-oranges comparison, since thunder radiates omnidirectionally from low altitude while fireballs push a compression wave ahead of their direction of travel at a much higher altitude. Thunder also propagates without seeing much in the way of change in air pressure, while fireball sonic booms radiate downward through a pretty substantial increase in air pressure. So my answer is... It depends. (Which is almost always the answer to a scientific question!) People directly along the path of a fireball should hear something louder than those off to the sides, I would expect. In principle a fireball's sonic boom should also travel farther since it starts higher up, but I suspect that propagating downward and outward through increasingly thicker atmosphere would serve to deflect and diminish it. I bet that research into airburst nuclear weapons blasts included modeling of shock waves and would be very useful for answering that question, but I'm thinking that we're not going to get a look at that data any time soon. Just a hunch. On 7/9/09 7:39 AM, drtanuki drtan...@yahoo.com wrote: List, I have the answer for thunder but not a meteor (I am guessing that they are about the same? 10miles or 16km Chris or anyone care to give the correct answer? Thanks! Thunder contains a somewhat cylindrical initial pressure shock wave along the lightning channel in excess of 10 times the normal atmospheric pressure. This shock wave decays rapidly into a sound wave within feet or meters. When thunder is heard from about 328 feet (100 m) distance, it consists of one large bang, yet hissing and clicking may be heard just prior to the bang (upward streamers). When heard at .6 mile (1 km) from lightning, thunder will rumble with several loud claps. Thunder is seldom heard beyond 10 miles (16 km) under ideal conditions. The sound of distant thunder has a characteristic low-pitched rumbling sound. Pitch, the degree of highness or lowness of a sound, is due to strong absorption and scattering of high-frequency components of the original sound waves, while the rumbling results from the fact that sound waves are emitted from different locations along the lightning channel, which lie at varying distances from a person. The longer the lightning channels, the longer the sound of thunder. Humans hear frequencies of thunder between 20-120 Hertz (Hz). However, there is a small amount, less than 10%, that is inaudible to humans produced from lightning, called infrasonic. Special listening devices are required to record these inaudible sounds. Sources: http://www.lightningsafety.com/nlsi_info/thunder2.html Best Regards, Dirk Ross...Tokyo __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list __ http://www.meteoritecentral.com Meteorite-list mailing list Meteorite-list@meteoritecentral.com http://six.pairlist.net/mailman/listinfo/meteorite-list
