Re: [Fwd: Open-Hardware]

2008-01-03 Thread Richard Stallman
I don't, however, I don't claim to live by the same free vs non-free rules, I use what works for me. I think you have misinterpreted the principles that I believe in and live by. I hope my explanations will help.

Re: [Fwd: Open-Hardware]

2008-01-03 Thread Richard Stallman
The free software foundation shall not be called free software foundation.. it shall be called Stallmanist Foundation and the philosophies are to be outlined as Stallmanism.. not free software. If you want to campaign for a philosophical stand about software and trees, you are

Re: [Fwd: Open-Hardware]

2008-01-03 Thread Richard Stallman
As for Intels use of non-ree software, I am sorry for them, and I hope that someday they will be able to move to free software. Yet you still support them, and require gNewsense users to use Intel/AMD hardware? I do not boycott companies for using non-free software.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Richard Stallman
In fact many of the people did expect this when you favorite organization lost the battle publically on Reyk's code that your friends stole and tried to impose your license on it, and when they even tried vainly to go legal by the advice of a un-educated american lawyer but

Re: [Fwd: Open-Hardware]

2008-01-03 Thread Richard Stallman
As for Intels use of non-free software, I am sorry for them, and I hope that someday they will be able to move to free software. Is this hope reasonable or logical? Totally not. Intel just wants the best software they can afford to get their chips as fast and as good as

hw.setperf in marketing speak?

2008-01-03 Thread Michael Dexter
Hello all, Can someone tell me what marketing speak to look for to determine if a motherboard supports hw.setperf and apmd -C/A CPU speed regulation? I have an unremarkable Intel D845GBV P4 board that supports hw.setperf fine but a full-featured Intel SE7221BK1-E P4 server board that does not.

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Jens Teglhus Møller
On Thu, January 3, 2008 07:58, Peter N. M. Hansteen wrote: ... snip With any kind of reasonable Internet access, rsync to another machine is extremely easy to set up and maintain, and once the initial duplication of all data is done the periodic (say once or twice a day) transfer is almost not

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Mayuresh Kathe
Mr. Stallman, I respect you for what you've managed to achieve as an individual. But, frankly, this thread has really gotten way out of control. A few days back everything had kind-a settled down and we got the impression that the thread had fortunately died, but that's not been the case, you

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 08:19:38PM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: Nobody out here is going to listen to what you're going to say, and you are going to go on and on about how you were justified in labeling OpenBSD as not compliant with your interpretation of the word free, which we don't give a

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Allie D.
Mayuresh Kathe wrote: Mr. Stallman, I respect you for what you've managed to achieve as an individual. But, frankly, this thread has really gotten way out of control. A few days back everything had kind-a settled down and we got the impression that the thread had fortunately died, but

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Siju George
On Jan 3, 2008 3:20 PM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In fact many of the people did expect this when you favorite organization lost the battle publically on Reyk's code that your friends stole and tried to impose your license on it, and when they even tried vainly

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Marius Hooge
Doug wrote: 2. I don't know the size of the disk to know the size of the backup media required. However, CD/DVD burners are less than the cost of a hard drive and the media is relatively cheap. I personally don't recommend backups to CD/DVD. They degenerate rather

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Stuart VanZee
From: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:03 AM To: misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: Real men don't attack straw men On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 08:19:38PM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: Nobody out here is going to listen to what you're going to say, and you are going to go on

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:38:08AM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: From: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra He's not labelling OpenBSD non-free, just non-free-friendly because some non-free are distributed in the ports site. And yet, you still don't have it quite right. Saying that the ports system

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread knitti
On 1/3/08, Marius Hooge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Doug wrote: 2. I don't know the size of the disk to know the size of the backup media required. However, CD/DVD burners are less than the cost of a hard drive and the media is relatively cheap. I personally don't recommend

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Michael Schmidt
Mayuresh Kathe schrieb: Mr. Stallman, ... Nobody out here is going to listen to what you're going to say, and you are going to go on and on about how you were justified in labeling OpenBSD as not compliant with your interpretation of the word free, which we don't give a farthing for.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread dereck
Hello Mayuresh, a possible reason can be that he is thinking Some of it might stick. Not likely. Go back under your rock, along with RMS and the rest of the bunch. -- Michael Schmidt MIRRORS: Watcom ftp://ftp.fh-koblenz.de/pub/CompilerTools/Watcom/ OpenOffice

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 03:53:26PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: [blablabla] Since I'm (at least) smart enough not to install proprietary software, I don't have a strong problem with it, but for someone like RMS who want's to be able to recommend strictly Free Software operating

Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question

2008-01-03 Thread Jack J. Woehr
A professional peer of mine wrote the following article: http://www.networkworld.com/community/node/23417 which contains the following paragraph: Google's hired great open source developers from projects like Linux, Firefox, Samba and Apache. They all still have ties back into those

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:04:44AM -0600, Gilles Chehade wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 03:53:26PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Since I'm (at least) smart enough not to install proprietary software, I don't have a strong problem with it, but for someone like RMS who want's to be

disklabel (?) issues during upgrade to 4.2

2008-01-03 Thread Soner Tari
The problem I am facing happens during installation of OpenBSD 4.2 -release, -stable, or -current as of January 1st (both amd64 and i386). I can very easily reproduce this issue every time. I've been testing for the last 48 hours, and can confirm that it never happens on 4.0 or 4.1. Happens with

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Tobias Weingartner
Stuart Henderson wrote: It wouldn't be more likely that the disk _crashes_ by doing this, and it may give _some_ protection against _some_ failure modes. It also gives new and exciting ones to take their place. Actually, since you'd be mirroring to two different portions of the same disk

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:50:27PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:04:44AM -0600, Gilles Chehade wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 03:53:26PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Since I'm (at least) smart enough not to install proprietary software, I don't

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread L
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:04:44AM -0600, Gilles Chehade wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 03:53:26PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Since I'm (at least) smart enough not to install proprietary software, I don't have a strong problem with it, but for

Re: [Fwd: Open-Hardware]

2008-01-03 Thread weingart
In gmane.os.openbsd.misc, you wrote: There is a free copier of hardware: you, me, or anyone with a certian amount of skill, and the required wires and other parts. This is how the entire home PC business started, the whole homebrew market. That's true for some kinds of

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Ruben Gonzalez Arnau
Why don't you tell us about emacs and gcc as Theo said? If you don't want to answer nothing new here Don't feed the troll!!

Re: Real Men Don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Roberto J. Dohnert
While reading this thread the course it has taken really surprises me. I dont agree with Richards take on OpenBSD. I think OpenBSD is fine, good for recommendations for a truly free OS. But what really surprises me is that Stallman has resorted to blatant troll like posting just to incite a

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:22:35AM -0700, L wrote: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:04:44AM -0600, Gilles Chehade wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 03:53:26PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Since I'm (at least) smart enough not to install proprietary

FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Stuart VanZee
From: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 10:53 AM To: Openbsd Misc (E-mail) Subject: Re: Real men don't attack straw men On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:38:08AM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: From: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra He's not labelling OpenBSD non-free, just

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:05:37PM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: Wow... it is incredibly telling that you chose a game, a pretty obscure one at that as far as I can tell, to base your argument on. The world will fall because OpenBSD recommends that people install a game... a game that is free

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Stuart Henderson
On 2008/01/03 16:59, Tobias Weingartner wrote: Stuart Henderson wrote: It wouldn't be more likely that the disk _crashes_ by doing this, and it may give _some_ protection against _some_ failure modes. It also gives new and exciting ones to take their place. Actually, since you'd be

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Siju George
On Jan 3, 2008 10:28 PM, Ruben Gonzalez Arnau [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Why don't you tell us about emacs and gcc as Theo said? If you don't want to answer nothing new here The wget he uses is worse. You can download any non-free software with it and it does not warn the user at all!!!

2008 Approved cryptographic algorithms -- Government of Canada

2008-01-03 Thread scott
Referencing: http://www.cse-cst.gc.ca/services/crypto-services/crypto-algorithms-e.html It is now 2008 and, per above link, the CSE de-lists certain HASH and HMAC standards and algorithms, namely sha-1 is bumped to sha-224 (as a minimum) including its downstream incorporations/reliances. With

Re: disklabel (?) issues during upgrade to 4.2

2008-01-03 Thread Otto Moerbeek
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 06:56:18PM +0200, Soner Tari wrote: The problem I am facing happens during installation of OpenBSD 4.2 -release, -stable, or -current as of January 1st (both amd64 and i386). I can very easily reproduce this issue every time. I've been testing for the last 48 hours,

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Tobias Ulmer
nostromo:tobiasu$ for x in blahblah STFU. KTHXBYE; do banner $x; done # # # # #### # # #### ### ## # ## ## ## # ## # # # ## ## # # ## ## #

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 01:23:21PM -0500, William Boshuck wrote: Richard Stallman referred to certain URLs in certain Makefiles in the ports tree---not the collection of packages, after (in the interview which indirectly prompted this thread) confusing OpenBSD's ports tree with its

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread William Boshuck
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 05:48:13PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:05:37PM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: Wow... it is incredibly telling that you chose a game, a pretty obscure one at that as far as I can tell, to base your argument on. The world will fall

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread L
L wrote: GCC for ms WIndows does not even REQUIRE thinking first. Everyone knows GCC is a great Windows Proprietary compiler to create proprietary software.. it's just a cheaper compiler than MS VC. It is so easy to get or make GCC on windows, because Stallman knows his figurehead will

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread L
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: le that have an OpenBSD CD to install the OS have the chance to use MORE free software than before. That's got nothing to do with what was talked about. It's not about the OpenBSD cd, but about having ... http://www.openbsd.org/4.2_packages/i386.html

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Marco Peereboom
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 06:30:44PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 01:23:21PM -0500, William Boshuck wrote: Richard Stallman referred to certain URLs in certain Makefiles in the ports tree---not the collection of packages, after (in the interview which

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Marco Peereboom
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 05:48:13PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:05:37PM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: Wow... it is incredibly telling that you chose a game, a pretty obscure one at that as far as I can tell, to base your argument on. The world will fall

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Stuart VanZee
From: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:48 PM To: Openbsd Misc (E-mail) Subject: Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:05:37PM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: Wow... it is incredibly telling that you chose a game, a pretty obscure one

priority of routes ( ipsec and local interface routes )

2008-01-03 Thread Christoph Leser
Hi, I've a question regarding the priority of routing entries. Please take a look at the following routing table for a machine with 3 ethernet interfaces ( link#1 192.168.0.1 ( internal net 1 /24 ) link#2 u.v.w.254 ( internet/30 ) link#4 10.10.60.1 ( internal net 2 /24 ): netstat

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Reuvers, Nils
Watch your blood pressure there Stuart. -Original Message- From: Stuart VanZee[EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: 3-1-08 20:23:52 To: Openbsd Misc (E-mail)misc@openbsd.org Subject: Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men From: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:48 PM To:

Re: Updated ports/packages in -stable/-release

2008-01-03 Thread Nicolas Letellier
Hello Nick, That may be what you do, but you are generally wrong if that is your goal. The goal is that the BEST version of OpenBSD is -current. This goal is usually met. At home, I use -current version for 6 months. However, I'm in my society, and I must set up 10 development machines, and

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Marco Peereboom
This list is actually the first place I read of widespread use of GCC for making proprietary software. Since so many lies are said about what RMS promotes or not, I don't feel confident in taking your word for it (specially since you seem to resort easily into insults). This just underscores

PC Engines alix2c3 bootloader issue

2008-01-03 Thread Bobby Johnson
I'm missing the bootloader interaction with OpenBSD 4.2 installed on a compact flash card in this alix2c3. With the most recent bios from PC Engines 0.99. If I strike any keys ( like boot -s) during the time when the boot prompt should appear the system will not boot. If I wait it boots fine.

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Gregg Reynolds
On 1/3/08, Siju George [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The wget he uses is worse. You can download any non-free software with it and it does not warn the user at all!!! And electricity! I'm pretty sure (unless I'm misinformed) he uses electricity provided by plants and distribution systems that are

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread new_guy
Marco Peereboom wrote: bullshit. I decided to put my money where my mouth is :) I bought a 80GB, Western Digital IDE hard drive. $60 USD. Attached it to a Windows XP laptop (usb-ide bridge), initialized it, created one (1) primary partition, formatted it NTFS and copied an older subversion

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Marco Peereboom
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 03:02:40PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 08:19:38PM +0530, Mayuresh Kathe wrote: Nobody out here is going to listen to what you're going to say, and you are going to go on and on about how you were justified in labeling OpenBSD as not

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Theo de Raadt
Rui Miguel Silva is continually making you guys remove [EMAIL PROTECTED] from the cc's of your messages. If you are going to flame rms, it is best to keep him cc'd. From: Rui Miguel Silva Seabra Sent: Thursday, January 03, 2008 12:48 PM To: Openbsd Misc (E-mail) Subject: Re: FW: Real men

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Gilles Chehade
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:40:47AM -0600, Gilles Chehade wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:50:27PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 10:04:44AM -0600, Gilles Chehade wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 03:53:26PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: Since I'm (at

Re: PC Engines alix2c3 bootloader issue

2008-01-03 Thread Theo de Raadt
I'm missing the bootloader interaction with OpenBSD 4.2 installed on a compact flash card in this alix2c3. With the most recent bios from PC Engines 0.99. If I strike any keys ( like boot -s) during the time when the boot prompt should appear the system will not boot. If I wait it boots

SMDR port

2008-01-03 Thread philip.colaluca
I am trying to get information about the SMDR port on the S8700. I am attempting to run dual outputs from this IP system. Can you comment on this or direct me to where I can obtain additional information? Philip Colaluca- BT Americas CSNO Group-Unilever Account office 203-402-4550,

Re: PC Engines alix2c3 bootloader issue

2008-01-03 Thread Stuart Henderson
On 2008/01/03 12:42, Bobby Johnson wrote: I'm missing the bootloader interaction with OpenBSD 4.2 installed on a compact flash card in this alix2c3. With the most recent bios from PC Engines 0.99. If I strike any keys ( like boot -s) during the time when the boot prompt should appear the

Re: PC Engines alix2c3 bootloader issue

2008-01-03 Thread Bobby Johnson
The serial console works correctly when the speed is set to 9600 bps. On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 12:42 -0700, Bobby Johnson wrote: I'm missing the bootloader interaction with OpenBSD 4.2 installed on a compact flash card in this alix2c3. With the most recent bios from PC Engines 0.99. If I

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Eric Furman
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008 11:55:16 -0800 (PST), new_guy [EMAIL PROTECTED] said: Marco Peereboom wrote: bullshit. I decided to put my money where my mouth is :) I bought a 80GB, Western Digital IDE hard drive. $60 USD. Attached it to a Windows XP laptop (usb-ide bridge), initialized it,

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:33:26PM -0700, Theo de Raadt wrote: Rui Miguel Silva is continually making you guys remove [EMAIL PROTECTED] from the cc's of your messages. FYI, I continually remove people from the CC on mailing-list posts. I consider it rude to receive duplicate email. If you

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Unix Fan
I'm sorry Marco, but I think what you've said is bullshit, as well contacted several so called data recovery organizations, after admitting to have zeroed the drive contents - They said recovery wasn't possible.. While it might be possible to get miscellaneous data off of a drive, it would

Re: SMDR port

2008-01-03 Thread demuel
WTF this has to do with being in misc@openbsd.org mailing lists? [EMAIL PROTECTED] schrieb: I am trying to get information about the SMDR port on the S8700. I am attempting to run dual outputs from this IP system. Can you comment on this or direct me to where I can obtain additional

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Rui Miguel Silva Seabra
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:34:24PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote: It would be nice if people would stop defending non defensible hypocritical positions. His arguments are a misleading hyperbole. Your attitude is also indefensible and ostentiously hypocritical, with a rudeness that only adds

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Brad Tilley
It can't be done. it's an urban legend, AFAICT. Yes I know. That's the whole point of this. It would have been better to donate a 100 bucks to OpenBSD. I'm just fed-up with the stupid drivel about needing to burn, grind, overwrite, and nuke drives... and even after all of that there's still a

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Brad Tilley
On Jan 3, 2008 3:35 PM, Marco Peereboom [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Great. The companies I worked with charged $500 per megabyte. I am sure you'll spend that to prove whatever point you are trying to make. Free analysis. I pay shipping. The drive cost 60 bucks. I'll probably have a total of 100

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Marco Peereboom
Re-adding RMS. On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:34:24PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 05:48:13PM +, Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:05:37PM -0500, Stuart VanZee wrote: Wow... it is incredibly telling that you chose a game, a pretty obscure

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Miod Vallat
Rui Miguel Silva is continually making you guys remove [EMAIL PROTECTED] from the cc's of your messages. FYI, I continually remove people from the CC on mailing-list posts. Yet you have no idea whether these people are subscribed to these mailing lists. I consider it rude to receive

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Diana Eichert
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Brad Tilley wrote: SNIP and nuking drives is *required*... it's silly and wasteful. One pass from /dev/zero is more than enough for all cases. HaHaHa, I wish my day job employer would let me take the drugs you're on. diana

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Henning Brauer
* Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-01-03 23:34]: If neither hard drives nor CD/DVDs are a good backup soluton, and networking the backup to another computer's hard drive (which then presumably also has the bitrot problem) isn't an option, and a DLT or whatever tape drive is too

Re: how to create package example..

2008-01-03 Thread Stuart Henderson
On 2008/01/03 15:04, Jon wrote: I understand the value and usefulness and the reccomendation of Ports.. This is for my own software. I have also searched the net for examples and can't find any. You'd have to be doing something _very_ strange for there to be any advantage in not just making

Re: Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question

2008-01-03 Thread Marco Peereboom
Good for google! They hire themselves into fame and therefore look good in the process. If the individual thinks that the money is worth it for him/her we have a transaction. Nowhere do I see any ethical questions. Google is in it for the money and someone needs to pay a mortgage. End of

Re: small diff for cp.c - again

2008-01-03 Thread Tobias Ulmer
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 01:00:19AM +0100, Kim Naim Lesmer wrote: Hi. This is just a small diff for cp.c I believe it will improve readability a little bit. Regards. Sorry, the diff goes here: --- cp.c2008-01-04 00:26:09.0 +0100 +++ cp_new.c2008-01-04

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread new_guy
Marco S Hyman wrote: Brad Tilley writes: performed from the OpenBSD 4.2 install CD. I'll send it to the one 'ISO Certified' company that agreed to examine it. If they cannot You keep throwing around the 'ISO Certified' tag as if it had some special meaning. Certified to what

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Harpalus a Como
Myth? Why are you so upset about this? It's not myth. The techniques involved in recovering data in the manner Marco and the NSA, DoD, and many others describe isn't a matter of running a simple software tool. It's a long, slow, annoying process that is also costly. But it is possible. Not every

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Douglas A. Tutty
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 04:08:08PM -0800, Marco S Hyman wrote: As for disk destruction... I don't know nor pretend to know what can and can not be recovered. Take a look at

Re: Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question

2008-01-03 Thread Ioan Nemes
Ask yourself this question. Do you really believe that someone who sells a product which was developed within the lawful frame work is unethical? You confusing the issue! The software market - where you sell your product (i.e., software) is unethical, distorted and manipulated, and not by

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Greg Thomas
On Jan 3, 2008 5:21 PM, Harpalus a Como [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Myth? Have you read this: http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html? Why are you so upset about this? Myth's that compel people to waste time and energy should be destroyed. It's not myth. Have you read this

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread L
Marco Peereboom wrote: This list is actually the first place I read of widespread use of GCC for making proprietary software. Since so many lies are said about what RMS promotes or not, I don't feel confident in taking your word for it (specially since you seem to resort easily into insults).

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread L
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 12:34:24PM -0600, Marco Peereboom wrote: It would be nice if people would stop defending non defensible hypocritical positions. His arguments are a misleading hyperbole. Your attitude is also indefensible and ostentiously

Re: Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question

2008-01-03 Thread Douglas A. Tutty
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 12:48:57PM +1100, Ioan Nemes wrote: Ask yourself this question. Do you really believe that someone who sells a product which was developed within the lawful frame work is unethical? You confusing the issue! The software market - where you sell your product

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Douglas A. Tutty
On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 11:36:31PM +0100, Henning Brauer wrote: * Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-01-03 23:34]: If neither hard drives nor CD/DVDs are a good backup soluton, and networking the backup to another computer's hard drive (which then presumably also has the bitrot

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Unix Fan
new_guy wrote: I'm working on putting a website up now where I'll fully disclose the details. Lots of pictures and details. I will attribute the dd used to OpenBSD (the best OS on the planet bar none... although the dd on the install CD did not support the conv option... I would have liked

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Kennith Mann III
On 3 Jan 2008 18:55:14 -0800, Unix Fan [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: (I like the Put Up or Shut Up slogan as well!!) The problem is that none of us have the funds that the NSA has to aquire an answer that will actually silence this thread. The reality is: Who are you trying to protect it against?

Re: Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question

2008-01-03 Thread Jeremy Huiskamp
On 3-Jan-08, at 8:48 PM, Ioan Nemes wrote: Ask yourself this question. Do you really believe that someone who sells a product which was developed within the lawful frame work is unethical? You confusing the issue! The software market - where you sell your product (i.e., software) is

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Todd Alan Smith
On Jan 3, 2008 8:47 PM, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On Thu, Jan 03, 2008 at 11:36:31PM +0100, Henning Brauer wrote: * Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] [2008-01-03 23:34]: If neither hard drives nor CD/DVDs are a good backup soluton, and networking the backup to another

Re: FW: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Sunnz
Hmmm Mr. Stallman is this your home page: stallman.org I was a bit curious about what would someone who reads web-sites by using a wget daemon through e-mails whose own web-site looks like... well... Apache httpd 2.0.54 ((Debian GNU/Linux) DAV/2 SVN/1.2.0 PHP/4.3.10-22 mod_ssl/2.0.54

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Diana Eichert
On Thu, 3 Jan 2008, Mark Rolen wrote: Diana Eichert wrote: You can locate data from formatted and wiped hard drive, if you have the resources behind you. Can you point to an actual instance you know of where this has happened? I don't mean that in an aggressive or challenging way, I'm

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Steve Shockley
Eric Furman wrote: It can't be done. it's an urban legend, AFAICT. http://www.nber.org/sys-admin/overwritten-data-guttman.html Which references Gutmann's paper which started all this... Of course I'm sure a tax analyst (http://www.nber.org/vitae/vita184.htm) knows more about data recovery

Re: Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question

2008-01-03 Thread Lars Hansson
On Jan 4, 2008 9:48 AM, Ioan Nemes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You confusing the issue! The software market - where you sell your product (i.e., software) is unethical, distorted and manipulated, and not by the ethical software crafters! Why is the software market unethical? Because there are

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Richard Stallman
This is the same with your recommended system GNU/Darwin: http://www.gnu-darwin.org/index.php?page=ports Who also contains instructions to install the such port system. Thank you for telling me about this problem. I will talk with them about this ASAP. I expect they will probably

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Richard Stallman
In addition, I thought that OpenSolaris was just a kernel, but it looks like the question had in mind a whole system. This miscommunication has the effect of making my statement appear to be an endorsement of a system. Huh? OpenSolaris is just a kernel That's what I

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Amarendra Godbole
On Jan 4, 2008 10:59 AM, Richard Stallman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In addition, I thought that OpenSolaris was just a kernel, but it looks like the question had in mind a whole system. This miscommunication has the effect of making my statement appear to be an endorsement

Rui Miguel Silva Seabra

2008-01-03 Thread Dusty
Rui Miguel Silva Seabra only ever contributes to this list when its in a flame war, and always to take up a contrary point of view. He has proved only one thing. Trolls do exist and their primary form of communication is to point and grunt. What Rui says is so stupid, its not even wrong. Kindest

Re: disklabel (?) issues during upgrade to 4.2

2008-01-03 Thread Otto Moerbeek
On Fri, Jan 04, 2008 at 12:06:04AM +0200, Soner Tari wrote: On Thu, 2008-01-03 at 19:15 +0100, Otto Moerbeek wrote: Downgrades are NOT supported. Some backrground info: the disklabel format changed from 4.1 to 4.2. A 4.2 kernel makes sure to translate the format, and the new tools

Re: Open Source Article Spawns Interesting Ethical Question

2008-01-03 Thread Theo de Raadt
Don't worry. You can ask rms if your behaviour is ethical. He'll set you straight, and tell you to stop working for those companies and instead suckle off your McArthur Idiot grant. On Jan 4, 2008 9:48 AM, Ioan Nemes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: You confusing the issue! The software market -

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Theo de Raadt
This is the same with your recommended system GNU/Darwin: http://www.gnu-darwin.org/index.php?page=ports Who also contains instructions to install the such port system. Thank you for telling me about this problem. I will talk with them about this ASAP. I expect they will

Re: Real men don't attack straw men

2008-01-03 Thread Theo de Raadt
In addition, I thought that OpenSolaris was just a kernel, but it looks like the question had in mind a whole system. This miscommunication has the effect of making my statement appear to be an endorsement of a system. Huh? OpenSolaris is just a kernel That's

Re: delete deleted data

2008-01-03 Thread Ted Unangst
On 1/3/08, new_guy [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm working on putting a website up now where I'll fully disclose the details. Lots of pictures and details. I will attribute the dd used to OpenBSD (the best OS on the planet bar none... although the dd on the install CD did not support the conv

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Ted Unangst
On 1/3/08, Douglas A. Tutty [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I thought that there was a trend in the industry away from tapes toward hard-drive-based systems, e.g. virtual tape libraries that are basically large file servers with far more capacity than throughput. If bitrot is a serious concern,

Re: Improving disk reliability

2008-01-03 Thread Nick Guenther
On 1/3/08, knitti [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 1/3/08, Marius Hooge [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I personally don't recommend backups to CD/DVD. They degenerate rather quickly depending on their quality and the storage humidity. Unlike a USB/Firewire harddisk inside your fire-, water-,