Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-11-03 Thread Rachel Roch



> an updated diff for this just got committed.
> jmc
>

Thank you all.  For myself and on behalf of future devoted man page readers, 
very much appreciated that such a key man page has been brought up to date.

rr



Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-11-02 Thread Jason McIntyre
On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 04:41:26PM +, Jason McIntyre wrote:
> On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 10:16:54AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > Jason McIntyre  wrote:
> > 
> > > whereas /etc/netstart is actually doing:
> > > 
> > > - configure non-physical:   (1)
> > > aggr trunk svlan vlan carp pppoe
> > > - routing   (2)
> > > - rest of non-physical: (3)
> > > tun tap gif etherip gre egre mobileip pflow wg
> > > 
> > > we could try to keep this list up to date, but it may be easier to just
> > > generally describe what netstart is doing.
> > 
> > I think we goes wrong by trying to maintain these as lists, and part of
> > where this goes wrong is weak definition of the reasons for the
> > ordering.  (Meaning, the developers who tweak netstart to handle the
> > concerns I'm about to describe, don't tend to think about the manual
> > page).
> > 
> > The (1) list of non-physical can probably be called "link-layer control
> > interfaces".  Or let's find a name for this.  These devices mutate the
> > presentation of other devices.  That's why their configuration needs to
> > be done before the physical device.
> > 
> > (2) The physical device is then brought up, including IP addressing. The
> > things in (1) need to be done beforehands, or the physical device is
> > participating in the wrong layer of network.
> > 
> > the (3) list of non-physical devices are layer-2 or layer-3 and operate
> > on devices which are already configured with some some sort of
> > "addressing" configured.
> > 
> > It would be nice to have our networking people come up with nice names
> > for group (1) and (2); words which succinctly describe the
> > classification like I've done above.  We need to increase understanding
> > of this order, rather than just abstractly listing names of devices with
> > complicated behaviours.
> > 
> > Once that is done, I still think it is problematic for us to list all
> > devices in each catagory:
> > 
> > a) new subsystems will be forgotten
> > b) the order of instantiation will sometimes be listed wrong -- for some
> >of these the order is highly significant.
> > 
> > We can try to list as many as possible, but people who want the precise
> > list (and order) should look in the netstart code.  The lists will get
> > long and wrong.  If we find we cannot maintain the lists correctly
> > because it is duplicated information, man page wording like "such as"
> > could be used, also something which leads people to consider the script
> > source as authoritative, ie. have them go read the script 
> > 
> 
> ok, here is a start.
> 
> i have left the description as "non-physical", because i think that is
> clear. we could easily amend it. ifconfig.8 create talks about "network
> pseudo-devices" - that could be a possibility.
> 
> jmc
> 

an updated diff for this just got committed.
jmc



Re: Fwd: Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-28 Thread pipus
aye agreed.
Another option which we were also looking at it a community wiki as a separate 
src.  So sys admins and devs can upload their own usage examples easily.  With 
the caveat ofc that these are not official examples.  If you could do something 
like a triple pipe ||| or even a "sudo !!!" and it would automatically upload 
as an example if the command worked that would be quite 21st century.  But 
would be nice if we could alleviate the immense workload and bw from the 
present devs from having to add 10-20 examples for each command or even flag.  
My issue, even though I ran ITE, and lived on the CLI even in SunScreen was 
remembering all of the flags and their positioning.  Examples really help on 
that front.

Btw interesting signature Luke  not that I particularly agree but nice to 
see another viewpoint, people seem to love the idea of the pre-universe getting 
flatulent and producing all of this life, biological programming, and beauty. 
The Big Bang is such a joke mathematically, just completely impossible, but 
people love to take sides. And I am NOT starting a religious conversation here! 
 Just thought I would comment on your bravery.


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Tuesday, 27 October 2020 21:48, Luke Call  wrote:

> > - message from pipus pi...@protonmail.com -
> > Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:29:41 +
> > From: pipus pi...@protonmail.com
> > To: Theo de Raadt dera...@openbsd.org
> > Cc: "misc@openbsd.org" misc@openbsd.org
> > Subject: Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8
> > 
> > I could explain process class priority configuration until my mind is numb 
> > but in the end without seeing the commands that would actually be used it 
> > is really making your life far harder.
>
> I liked Theo's idea of having a "such as (possibly) x, y, and z, but see
> the actual /etc/netstart script for accurate details", as striking a
> good balance between being briefly informative with examples, and
> more accurate over time.
>
> On Sunday, 25 October 2020 17:44, Theo de Raadt dera...@openbsd.org wrote:
>
> > Jason McIntyre j...@kerhand.co.uk wrote:
> >
> > > On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 10:16:54AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > >
> > > > Jason McIntyre j...@kerhand.co.uk wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > whereas /etc/netstart is actually doing:
> > > > >
> > > > > -   configure non-physical: (1)
> > > > > aggr trunk svlan vlan carp pppoe
> > > > >
> > > > > -   routing (2)
> > > > >
> > > > > -   rest of non-physical: (3)
> > > > > tun tap gif etherip gre egre mobileip pflow wg
> > > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > we could try to keep this list up to date, but it may be easier to 
> > > > > just
> > > > > generally describe what netstart is doing.
> > > >
> > > > I think we goes wrong by trying to maintain these as lists, and part of
> > > > where this goes wrong is weak definition of the reasons for the
> > > > ordering. (Meaning, the developers who tweak netstart to handle the
> > > > concerns I'm about to describe, don't tend to think about the manual
> > > > page).
> > > > The (1) list of non-physical can probably be called "link-layer control
> > > > interfaces". Or let's find a name for this. These devices mutate the
> > > > presentation of other devices. That's why their configuration needs to
> > > > be done before the physical device.
> > > > (2) The physical device is then brought up, including IP addressing. The
> > > > things in (1) need to be done beforehands, or the physical device is
> > > > participating in the wrong layer of network.
> > > > the (3) list of non-physical devices are layer-2 or layer-3 and operate
> > > > on devices which are already configured with some some sort of
> > > > "addressing" configured.
> > > > It would be nice to have our networking people come up with nice names
> > > > for group (1) and (2); words which succinctly describe the
> > > > classification like I've done above. We need to increase understanding
> > > > of this order, rather than just abstractly listing names of devices with
> > > > complicated behaviours.
> > > > Once that is done, I still think it is problematic for us to list all
> > > > devices in each catagory:
> > > > a) new subsystems will be forgotten
> > > > b) the order of instantiation will sometimes be

Fwd: Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-27 Thread Luke Call
>- message from pipus  -
>Date: Mon, 26 Oct 2020 08:29:41 +
>From: pipus 
>To: Theo de Raadt 
>Cc: "misc@openbsd.org" 
>Subject: Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8
>
>I could explain process class priority configuration until my mind is numb but 
>in the end without seeing the commands that would actually be used it is 
>really making your life far harder.


I liked Theo's idea of having a "such as (possibly) x, y, and z, but see
the actual /etc/netstart script for accurate details", as striking a
good balance between being briefly informative with examples, and
more accurate over time.


On Sunday, 25 October 2020 17:44, Theo de Raadt  wrote:
> Jason McIntyre j...@kerhand.co.uk wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 10:16:54AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> >
> > > Jason McIntyre j...@kerhand.co.uk wrote:
> > >
> > > > whereas /etc/netstart is actually doing:
> > > >
> > > > -   configure non-physical: (1)
> > > > aggr trunk svlan vlan carp pppoe
> > > >
> > > > -   routing (2)
> > > > -   rest of non-physical: (3)
> > > > tun tap gif etherip gre egre mobileip pflow wg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > we could try to keep this list up to date, but it may be easier to just
> > > > generally describe what netstart is doing.
> > >
> > > I think we goes wrong by trying to maintain these as lists, and part of
> > > where this goes wrong is weak definition of the reasons for the
> > > ordering. (Meaning, the developers who tweak netstart to handle the
> > > concerns I'm about to describe, don't tend to think about the manual
> > > page).
> > > The (1) list of non-physical can probably be called "link-layer control
> > > interfaces". Or let's find a name for this. These devices mutate the
> > > presentation of other devices. That's why their configuration needs to
> > > be done before the physical device.
> > > (2) The physical device is then brought up, including IP addressing. The
> > > things in (1) need to be done beforehands, or the physical device is
> > > participating in the wrong layer of network.
> > > the (3) list of non-physical devices are layer-2 or layer-3 and operate
> > > on devices which are already configured with some some sort of
> > > "addressing" configured.
> > > It would be nice to have our networking people come up with nice names
> > > for group (1) and (2); words which succinctly describe the
> > > classification like I've done above. We need to increase understanding
> > > of this order, rather than just abstractly listing names of devices with
> > > complicated behaviours.
> > > Once that is done, I still think it is problematic for us to list all
> > > devices in each catagory:
> > > a) new subsystems will be forgotten
> > > b) the order of instantiation will sometimes be listed wrong -- for some
> > > of these the order is highly significant.
> > > We can try to list as many as possible, but people who want the precise
> > > list (and order) should look in the netstart code. The lists will get
> > > long and wrong. If we find we cannot maintain the lists correctly
> > > because it is duplicated information, man page wording like "such as"
> > > could be used, also something which leads people to consider the script
> > > source as authoritative, ie. have them go read the script
> >
> > ok, here is a start.
> > i have left the description as "non-physical", because i think that is
> > clear. we could easily amend it. ifconfig.8 create talks about "network
> > pseudo-devices" - that could be a possibility.
>
> You've deleted all the interface names, so now there are no examples.
> I disagree strongly. That creates a hurdle and people won't learn how
> our network pieces are configured into a multi-layer stack.



Luke Call

"...I, the Lord, justify you...in befriending that law which is the 
constitutional law 
of the land Wherefore, when the wicked rule the people mourn.  Wherefore, 
honest men 
and wise men should be sought for diligently, and good men and wise men ye 
should observe 
to uphold; ...whatsoever is less than these cometh of evil."  (Doctrine & 
Covenants 98:6,9-10.
>From 1833, when I think "men" often meant "persons".  More at my site: 
>lukecall.net .)

I think *honesty*, the Constitution and the rule of law (as opposed to of 
individuals), 
are far more important, relatively, than most or all policy issues, even 
important ones.



Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-26 Thread pipus
maybe a little less coffee ? :)


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Monday, 26 October 2020 10:16, Rachel Roch  wrote:

> Re: submitting something.  Theo has spoken and given his judgement. Theo 
> decreed "no, it should not be there", thus I shall not be wasting my time 
> submitting something that won't ever be accepted due to whatever weird reason 
> Theo thinks a random half-baked description of what is going on with 
> netstart(8) is acceptable.
>
> 25 Oct 2020, 13:44 by pi...@protonmail.com:
>
> > Rachel, you could submit something to be helpful if you like, fill the gap 
> > that you see. Only 60 devs and most of the man page content is incredibly 
> > up to date and valuable.
> > So I for one look forward to you adding your entry into the netstart man 
> > page for community review.
> > Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
> > ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> > On Sunday, 25 October 2020 09:42, Rachel Roch rr...@tutanota.de wrote:
> >
> > > 25 Oct 2020, 01:25 by dera...@openbsd.org:
> > >
> > > > Rachel Roch rr...@tutanota.de wrote:
> > > >
> > > > > Is it just me or is the man entry for netstart(8) missing a reference 
> > > > > to wg(4) ?
> > > >
> > > > ... and 300 other network interfaces.
> > > > In otherwords, no, it should not be there.
> > >
> > > OK smart alec, then why bother enumerating any of the non-physical 
> > > interfaces on the man page ?
> > > Afterall, the man page does state at the head of the list "During the 
> > > system boot, netstart is executed. netstart performs the following 
> > > operations, in the sequence given".
> > > There is little point giving a half-assed description.  Either you 
> > > enumerate ALL the non-physical interfaces, or otherwise you treat them 
> > > the same way as the physical ones ("Configure all the physical 
> > > interfaces").
> > > Otherwise you are failing to explain what happens to any of your "300 
> > > other interfaces".  Enumerate or don't enumerate, I don't care ... but 
> > > surely it is sensible to pay some reference to them.
> > > Sheesh !




Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-26 Thread Rachel Roch
Re: submitting something.  Theo has spoken and given his judgement. Theo 
decreed "no, it should not be there", thus I shall not be wasting my time 
submitting something that won't ever be accepted due to whatever weird reason 
Theo thinks a random half-baked description of what is going on with 
netstart(8) is acceptable.




25 Oct 2020, 13:44 by pi...@protonmail.com:

> Rachel, you could submit something to be helpful if you like, fill the gap 
> that you see.   Only 60 devs and most of the man page content is incredibly 
> up to date and valuable.
> So I for one look forward to you adding your entry into the netstart man page 
> for community review.
>
> Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.
>
> ‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
> On Sunday, 25 October 2020 09:42, Rachel Roch  wrote:
>
>> 25 Oct 2020, 01:25 by dera...@openbsd.org:
>>
>> > Rachel Roch rr...@tutanota.de wrote:
>> >
>> > > Is it just me or is the man entry for netstart(8) missing a reference to 
>> > > wg(4) ?
>> >
>> > ... and 300 other network interfaces.
>> > In otherwords, no, it should not be there.
>>
>> OK smart alec, then why bother enumerating any of the non-physical 
>> interfaces on the man page ? 
>>
>> Afterall, the man page does state at the head of the list "During the system 
>> boot, netstart is executed. netstart performs the following operations, in 
>> the sequence given". 
>>
>> There is little point giving a half-assed description.  Either you enumerate 
>> ALL the non-physical interfaces, or otherwise you treat them the same way as 
>> the physical ones ("Configure all the physical interfaces").
>>
>> Otherwise you are failing to explain what happens to any of your "300 other 
>> interfaces".  Enumerate or don't enumerate, I don't care ... but surely it 
>> is sensible to pay some reference to them.
>>
>> Sheesh !
>>



Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-26 Thread pipus
In Sun we always got hammered for this especially among the 3rd party coops as 
the man pages never really had an real world examples, and if they were there 
they were poor, I would keep as many examples as you can as most learn from 
seeing-in-action, instead of being told how.

I could explain process class priority configuration until my mind is numb but 
in the end without seeing the commands that would actually be used it is really 
making your life far harder.

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, 25 October 2020 17:44, Theo de Raadt  wrote:

> Jason McIntyre j...@kerhand.co.uk wrote:
>
> > On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 10:16:54AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> >
> > > Jason McIntyre j...@kerhand.co.uk wrote:
> > >
> > > > whereas /etc/netstart is actually doing:
> > > >
> > > > -   configure non-physical: (1)
> > > > aggr trunk svlan vlan carp pppoe
> > > >
> > > > -   routing (2)
> > > > -   rest of non-physical: (3)
> > > > tun tap gif etherip gre egre mobileip pflow wg
> > > >
> > > >
> > > > we could try to keep this list up to date, but it may be easier to just
> > > > generally describe what netstart is doing.
> > >
> > > I think we goes wrong by trying to maintain these as lists, and part of
> > > where this goes wrong is weak definition of the reasons for the
> > > ordering. (Meaning, the developers who tweak netstart to handle the
> > > concerns I'm about to describe, don't tend to think about the manual
> > > page).
> > > The (1) list of non-physical can probably be called "link-layer control
> > > interfaces". Or let's find a name for this. These devices mutate the
> > > presentation of other devices. That's why their configuration needs to
> > > be done before the physical device.
> > > (2) The physical device is then brought up, including IP addressing. The
> > > things in (1) need to be done beforehands, or the physical device is
> > > participating in the wrong layer of network.
> > > the (3) list of non-physical devices are layer-2 or layer-3 and operate
> > > on devices which are already configured with some some sort of
> > > "addressing" configured.
> > > It would be nice to have our networking people come up with nice names
> > > for group (1) and (2); words which succinctly describe the
> > > classification like I've done above. We need to increase understanding
> > > of this order, rather than just abstractly listing names of devices with
> > > complicated behaviours.
> > > Once that is done, I still think it is problematic for us to list all
> > > devices in each catagory:
> > > a) new subsystems will be forgotten
> > > b) the order of instantiation will sometimes be listed wrong -- for some
> > > of these the order is highly significant.
> > > We can try to list as many as possible, but people who want the precise
> > > list (and order) should look in the netstart code. The lists will get
> > > long and wrong. If we find we cannot maintain the lists correctly
> > > because it is duplicated information, man page wording like "such as"
> > > could be used, also something which leads people to consider the script
> > > source as authoritative, ie. have them go read the script
> >
> > ok, here is a start.
> > i have left the description as "non-physical", because i think that is
> > clear. we could easily amend it. ifconfig.8 create talks about "network
> > pseudo-devices" - that could be a possibility.
>
> You've deleted all the interface names, so now there are no examples.
> I disagree strongly. That creates a hurdle and people won't learn how
> our network pieces are configured into a multi-layer stack.




Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-25 Thread pipus
Rachel, you could submit something to be helpful if you like, fill the gap that 
you see.   Only 60 devs and most of the man page content is incredibly up to 
date and valuable.
So I for one look forward to you adding your entry into the netstart man page 
for community review.

Please don't forget all G703 types, and any algorithms behind the l1 to L3 
protocols, like preference level on BGP attributes per physical type, maybe add 
in the voltages as well.  You know push and pull 0 and 1 0-15 and - voltage 
ranges etc for each as well.


Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, 25 October 2020 09:42, Rachel Roch  wrote:

> 25 Oct 2020, 01:25 by dera...@openbsd.org:
>
> > Rachel Roch rr...@tutanota.de wrote:
> >
> > > Is it just me or is the man entry for netstart(8) missing a reference to 
> > > wg(4) ?
> >
> > ... and 300 other network interfaces.
> > In otherwords, no, it should not be there.
>
> OK smart alec, then why bother enumerating any of the non-physical interfaces 
> on the man page ? 
>
> Afterall, the man page does state at the head of the list "During the system 
> boot, netstart is executed. netstart performs the following operations, in 
> the sequence given". 
>
> There is little point giving a half-assed description.  Either you enumerate 
> ALL the non-physical interfaces, or otherwise you treat them the same way as 
> the physical ones ("Configure all the physical interfaces").
>
> Otherwise you are failing to explain what happens to any of your "300 other 
> interfaces".  Enumerate or don't enumerate, I don't care ... but surely it is 
> sensible to pay some reference to them.
>
> Sheesh !




Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-25 Thread pipus
Rachel, you could submit something to be helpful if you like, fill the gap that 
you see.   Only 60 devs and most of the man page content is incredibly up to 
date and valuable.
So I for one look forward to you adding your entry into the netstart man page 
for community review.

Sent with ProtonMail Secure Email.

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On Sunday, 25 October 2020 09:42, Rachel Roch  wrote:

> 25 Oct 2020, 01:25 by dera...@openbsd.org:
>
> > Rachel Roch rr...@tutanota.de wrote:
> >
> > > Is it just me or is the man entry for netstart(8) missing a reference to 
> > > wg(4) ?
> >
> > ... and 300 other network interfaces.
> > In otherwords, no, it should not be there.
>
> OK smart alec, then why bother enumerating any of the non-physical interfaces 
> on the man page ? 
>
> Afterall, the man page does state at the head of the list "During the system 
> boot, netstart is executed. netstart performs the following operations, in 
> the sequence given". 
>
> There is little point giving a half-assed description.  Either you enumerate 
> ALL the non-physical interfaces, or otherwise you treat them the same way as 
> the physical ones ("Configure all the physical interfaces").
>
> Otherwise you are failing to explain what happens to any of your "300 other 
> interfaces".  Enumerate or don't enumerate, I don't care ... but surely it is 
> sensible to pay some reference to them.
>
> Sheesh !




Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-25 Thread Theo de Raadt
Jason McIntyre  wrote:

> On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 10:16:54AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> > Jason McIntyre  wrote:
> > 
> > > whereas /etc/netstart is actually doing:
> > > 
> > > - configure non-physical:   (1)
> > > aggr trunk svlan vlan carp pppoe
> > > - routing   (2)
> > > - rest of non-physical: (3)
> > > tun tap gif etherip gre egre mobileip pflow wg
> > > 
> > > we could try to keep this list up to date, but it may be easier to just
> > > generally describe what netstart is doing.
> > 
> > I think we goes wrong by trying to maintain these as lists, and part of
> > where this goes wrong is weak definition of the reasons for the
> > ordering.  (Meaning, the developers who tweak netstart to handle the
> > concerns I'm about to describe, don't tend to think about the manual
> > page).
> > 
> > The (1) list of non-physical can probably be called "link-layer control
> > interfaces".  Or let's find a name for this.  These devices mutate the
> > presentation of other devices.  That's why their configuration needs to
> > be done before the physical device.
> > 
> > (2) The physical device is then brought up, including IP addressing. The
> > things in (1) need to be done beforehands, or the physical device is
> > participating in the wrong layer of network.
> > 
> > the (3) list of non-physical devices are layer-2 or layer-3 and operate
> > on devices which are already configured with some some sort of
> > "addressing" configured.
> > 
> > It would be nice to have our networking people come up with nice names
> > for group (1) and (2); words which succinctly describe the
> > classification like I've done above.  We need to increase understanding
> > of this order, rather than just abstractly listing names of devices with
> > complicated behaviours.
> > 
> > Once that is done, I still think it is problematic for us to list all
> > devices in each catagory:
> > 
> > a) new subsystems will be forgotten
> > b) the order of instantiation will sometimes be listed wrong -- for some
> >of these the order is highly significant.
> > 
> > We can try to list as many as possible, but people who want the precise
> > list (and order) should look in the netstart code.  The lists will get
> > long and wrong.  If we find we cannot maintain the lists correctly
> > because it is duplicated information, man page wording like "such as"
> > could be used, also something which leads people to consider the script
> > source as authoritative, ie. have them go read the script 
> > 
> 
> ok, here is a start.
> 
> i have left the description as "non-physical", because i think that is
> clear. we could easily amend it. ifconfig.8 create talks about "network
> pseudo-devices" - that could be a possibility.

You've deleted all the interface names, so now there are no examples.
I disagree strongly.   That creates a hurdle and people won't learn how
our network pieces are configured into a multi-layer stack.




Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-25 Thread Jason McIntyre
On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 10:16:54AM -0600, Theo de Raadt wrote:
> Jason McIntyre  wrote:
> 
> > whereas /etc/netstart is actually doing:
> > 
> > - configure non-physical:   (1)
> > aggr trunk svlan vlan carp pppoe
> > - routing   (2)
> > - rest of non-physical: (3)
> > tun tap gif etherip gre egre mobileip pflow wg
> > 
> > we could try to keep this list up to date, but it may be easier to just
> > generally describe what netstart is doing.
> 
> I think we goes wrong by trying to maintain these as lists, and part of
> where this goes wrong is weak definition of the reasons for the
> ordering.  (Meaning, the developers who tweak netstart to handle the
> concerns I'm about to describe, don't tend to think about the manual
> page).
> 
> The (1) list of non-physical can probably be called "link-layer control
> interfaces".  Or let's find a name for this.  These devices mutate the
> presentation of other devices.  That's why their configuration needs to
> be done before the physical device.
> 
> (2) The physical device is then brought up, including IP addressing. The
> things in (1) need to be done beforehands, or the physical device is
> participating in the wrong layer of network.
> 
> the (3) list of non-physical devices are layer-2 or layer-3 and operate
> on devices which are already configured with some some sort of
> "addressing" configured.
> 
> It would be nice to have our networking people come up with nice names
> for group (1) and (2); words which succinctly describe the
> classification like I've done above.  We need to increase understanding
> of this order, rather than just abstractly listing names of devices with
> complicated behaviours.
> 
> Once that is done, I still think it is problematic for us to list all
> devices in each catagory:
> 
> a) new subsystems will be forgotten
> b) the order of instantiation will sometimes be listed wrong -- for some
>of these the order is highly significant.
> 
> We can try to list as many as possible, but people who want the precise
> list (and order) should look in the netstart code.  The lists will get
> long and wrong.  If we find we cannot maintain the lists correctly
> because it is duplicated information, man page wording like "such as"
> could be used, also something which leads people to consider the script
> source as authoritative, ie. have them go read the script 
> 

ok, here is a start.

i have left the description as "non-physical", because i think that is
clear. we could easily amend it. ifconfig.8 create talks about "network
pseudo-devices" - that could be a possibility.

jmc

Index: netstart.8
===
RCS file: /cvs/src/share/man/man8/netstart.8,v
retrieving revision 1.23
diff -u -p -r1.23 netstart.8
--- netstart.8  7 Mar 2018 09:54:23 -   1.23
+++ netstart.8  25 Oct 2020 16:39:04 -
@@ -64,20 +64,12 @@ Configure the loopback interface.
 .It
 Configure all the physical interfaces.
 .It
-Configure the following non-physical interfaces:
-.Xr trunk 4 ,
-.Xr vlan 4 ,
-.Xr pfsync 4 ,
-and
-.Xr carp 4 .
+Configure any non-physical interfaces which need to be set up
+before default routes are in place.
 .It
 Initialize the routing table and set up the default routes.
 .It
-Configure the remaining non-physical interfaces:
-.Xr pppoe 4 ,
-.Xr gif 4 ,
-and
-.Xr gre 4 .
+Configure the remaining non-physical interfaces.
 .It
 Configure all
 .Xr bridge 4



Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-25 Thread Theo de Raadt
Jason McIntyre  wrote:

> whereas /etc/netstart is actually doing:
> 
> - configure non-physical:   (1)
> aggr trunk svlan vlan carp pppoe
> - routing   (2)
> - rest of non-physical: (3)
> tun tap gif etherip gre egre mobileip pflow wg
> 
> we could try to keep this list up to date, but it may be easier to just
> generally describe what netstart is doing.

I think we goes wrong by trying to maintain these as lists, and part of
where this goes wrong is weak definition of the reasons for the
ordering.  (Meaning, the developers who tweak netstart to handle the
concerns I'm about to describe, don't tend to think about the manual
page).

The (1) list of non-physical can probably be called "link-layer control
interfaces".  Or let's find a name for this.  These devices mutate the
presentation of other devices.  That's why their configuration needs to
be done before the physical device.

(2) The physical device is then brought up, including IP addressing. The
things in (1) need to be done beforehands, or the physical device is
participating in the wrong layer of network.

the (3) list of non-physical devices are layer-2 or layer-3 and operate
on devices which are already configured with some some sort of
"addressing" configured.

It would be nice to have our networking people come up with nice names
for group (1) and (2); words which succinctly describe the
classification like I've done above.  We need to increase understanding
of this order, rather than just abstractly listing names of devices with
complicated behaviours.

Once that is done, I still think it is problematic for us to list all
devices in each catagory:

a) new subsystems will be forgotten
b) the order of instantiation will sometimes be listed wrong -- for some
   of these the order is highly significant.

We can try to list as many as possible, but people who want the precise
list (and order) should look in the netstart code.  The lists will get
long and wrong.  If we find we cannot maintain the lists correctly
because it is duplicated information, man page wording like "such as"
could be used, also something which leads people to consider the script
source as authoritative, ie. have them go read the script 



Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-25 Thread Rachel Roch


25 Oct 2020, 01:25 by dera...@openbsd.org:

> Rachel Roch  wrote:
>
>> Is it just me or is the man entry for netstart(8) missing a reference to 
>> wg(4) ?
>>
>
> ... and 300 other network interfaces.
>
> In otherwords, no, it should not be there.
>

OK smart alec, then why bother enumerating any of the non-physical interfaces 
on the man page ? 

Afterall, the man page does state at the head of the list "During the system 
boot, netstart is executed. netstart performs the following operations, in the 
sequence given".  

There is little point giving a half-assed description.  Either you enumerate 
ALL the non-physical interfaces, or otherwise you treat them the same way as 
the physical ones ("Configure all the physical interfaces").

Otherwise you are failing to explain what happens to any of your "300 other 
interfaces".  Enumerate or don't enumerate, I don't care ... but surely it is 
sensible to pay some reference to them.

Sheesh !



Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-25 Thread Jason McIntyre
On Sun, Oct 25, 2020 at 09:42:39AM +0100, Rachel Roch wrote:
> 
> 25 Oct 2020, 01:25 by dera...@openbsd.org:
> 
> > Rachel Roch  wrote:
> >
> >> Is it just me or is the man entry for??netstart(8) missing a reference to 
> >> wg(4) ?
> >>
> >
> > ... and 300 other network interfaces.
> >
> > In otherwords, no, it should not be there.
> >
> 
> OK smart alec, then why bother enumerating any of the non-physical interfaces 
> on the man page ???
> 
> Afterall, the man page does state at the head of the list "During the system 
> boot, netstart is executed. netstart performs the following operations, in 
> the sequence given".?? 
> 
> There is little point giving a half-assed description.?? Either you enumerate 
> ALL the non-physical interfaces, or otherwise you treat them the same way as 
> the physical ones ("Configure all the physical interfaces").
> 
> Otherwise you are failing to explain what happens to any of your "300 other 
> interfaces".?? Enumerate or don't enumerate, I don't care ... but surely it 
> is sensible to pay some reference to them.
> 
> Sheesh !
> 

hi.

a diff would have been clearer - personally i originally thought you
were expecting an Xr in SEE ALSO for wg(4).

now i see you are on about the devices listed in DESCRIPTION.
unfortunately that list looks out of date and incomplete (or, always
possible, i have failed to understand the processing in netstart).

we currently have:

- configure non-physical:
trunk vlan pfsync carp
- routing
- rest of non-physical:
pppoe gif gre

whereas /etc/netstart is actually doing:

- configure non-physical:
aggr trunk svlan vlan carp pppoe
- routing
- rest of non-physical:
tun tap gif etherip gre egre mobileip pflow wg

we could try to keep this list up to date, but it may be easier to just
generally describe what netstart is doing.

i'll wait a little to see whether:

- i've understood what netstart is doing correctly
- there are compelling reasons to swing one way or the other

...then offer a diff.

jmc



man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-24 Thread Rachel Roch
Hi

Is it just me or is the man entry for netstart(8) missing a reference to wg(4) ?

Rachel



Re: man netstart(8) OpenBSD-6.8

2020-10-24 Thread Theo de Raadt
Rachel Roch  wrote:

> Is it just me or is the man entry for netstart(8) missing a reference to 
> wg(4) ?

... and 300 other network interfaces.

In otherwords, no, it should not be there.