Re: OpenBSD hardware router
z0mbix wrote: On 2/2/06, Kenny Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann Don't forget the wrap: http://www.pcengines.ch/wrap.htm They're slightly cheaper than the soekris. I use one with 3.8 and it runs as a cable router/firewall and runs ipsec between home and work. Hi z0mbix, how did you install OpenBSD on a wrap? Like: http://wiki.bsdforen.de/index.php/OpenBSD_-_WRAP and the links on the bottom (websites of Jonathan Weiss Thomas Kaschwig) Thanks, Sven
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On 2/7/06, Sven Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: z0mbix wrote: On 2/2/06, Kenny Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann Don't forget the wrap: http://www.pcengines.ch/wrap.htm They're slightly cheaper than the soekris. I use one with 3.8 and it runs as a cable router/firewall and runs ipsec between home and work. Hi z0mbix, how did you install OpenBSD on a wrap? Like: http://wiki.bsdforen.de/index.php/OpenBSD_-_WRAP and the links on the bottom (websites of Jonathan Weiss Thomas Kaschwig) Thanks, Sven Yes, I just followed information from the websites of Jonathan Weiss Thomas Kaschwig. I didn't have any success with pxebooting, but I gather someone has got that working now with a later bios version. Search the archives if you want to find out more about this. I couldn't be happier with my OpenBSD wrap setup.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On 2/7/06, z0mbix [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: On 2/7/06, Sven Wolf [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Don't forget the wrap: http://www.pcengines.ch/wrap.htm They're slightly cheaper than the soekris. I use one with 3.8 and it runs as a cable router/firewall and runs ipsec between home and work. Hi z0mbix, how did you install OpenBSD on a wrap? Like: http://wiki.bsdforen.de/index.php/OpenBSD_-_WRAP and the links on the bottom (websites of Jonathan Weiss Thomas Kaschwig) Thanks, Sven Yes, I just followed information from the websites of Jonathan Weiss Thomas Kaschwig. I didn't have any success with pxebooting, but I gather someone has got that working now with a later bios version. Search the archives if you want to find out more about this. I couldn't be happier with my OpenBSD wrap setup. This might a little late/offtopic, but has anyone tried using flashing a commercial router? Via my work on PSP homebrews I just stumbled upon http://www.angelfire.com/droid/ahman/. It seems like all it is is a disk image that then gets written direct to whatever counts as a harddrive in those routers. Now I'm wondering if that is how all commercial routers work (it would seem to make sense...). In that case you could create a tempory mfs drive in RAM, fdisk and disklabel it, copy the install sets for OpenBSD on it, and then use dd to save it to a disk image for ready uploading. You could set up sshd (which is the standard install anyway) and do further config via it. The troubles I can see are: +you'd have you figure out a way to make it bring up the interfaces/bridges on boot without knowing what driver they use, and thus what name they get (perhaps a rc.local script that runs down all available interfaces and does ifconfig $IF 192.168.0.1 up on them all). +the router might use some sort of checksumming in order to insure firmware files are not corrupt so you'd have to figure out what the format of the firmware files is. Commercial routers generally run for 50$ here in Canada (or cheaper if you're lucky: I'm using a 3$ one right now in fact) which is cheaper than Soekris and WRAP and any of the other options, and they are much more plentiful as well. Does anyone see any problems with this idea? Suggestions? I have 3 useless commercial routers sitting around right now but if I could get OpenBSD on them they could be awesome. -Kousu
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On Fri, Feb 03, 2006 at 07:32:31PM -0500, Chris Zakelj wrote: Joe S wrote: Be careful with Soekris. While DSL speed is stuck at 1.5 MB for you, many users are getting 6MB and higher is some parts of the world. It would not be advantageous to buy something like a soekris and grow out of it in 2 years when your ISP gets around to offering REAL speeds. Has anyone ever actually pushed a Soekris all out to see when it begins to choke? If so, where did it/they top out? It's great to remind us yanks that our residential broadband sucks compared to EUR and asia, but as you say, we'll catch up eventually. It maxes out at around 50Mbps doing just forwarding (no filtering). And this is with a 4801 (the fastest soekris (266MHz)). I don't think that better interfaces matter that much. The HW seems to max out around 10-12k interrupts per second (forwarding 5000 packets/sec). Perhaps you can reduce the number of interrupts with fxp(4) that do interrupt mitigation but I did not test it. -- :wq Claudio
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On 2006/02/03 20:34, Josh Tolley wrote: All that being said, we 1) didn't have an encryption accelerator in the box that would tend to make things worse anyway - you'll just increase the rate of interrupts and that seems to be the main problem.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 11:25:15AM +, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2006/02/03 20:34, Josh Tolley wrote: All that being said, we 1) didn't have an encryption accelerator in the box that would tend to make things worse anyway - you'll just increase the rate of interrupts and that seems to be the main problem. If you plan to do extensive crypto on a soekris then you better add an encryption accelerator to the box because the little CPU is not capable of doing more than 8MB of AES-128 per second (tested via openssl speed). With scp I never got more than 1MB/s throughput. The soekris has such a slow CPU that any kind of work is expensive. Forwarding packets does not need a lot of CPU power and even in this case the soekris CPU is maxed out. In this specific case it seems that the interrupt processing spends the most time on the CPU (so one should try to optimise that part to get more forwarding speed). -- :wq Claudio
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On 2006/02/04 14:07, Claudio Jeker wrote: On Sat, Feb 04, 2006 at 11:25:15AM +, Stuart Henderson wrote: On 2006/02/03 20:34, Josh Tolley wrote: All that being said, we 1) didn't have an encryption accelerator in the box that would tend to make things worse anyway - you'll just increase the rate of interrupts and that seems to be the main problem. If you plan to do extensive crypto on a soekris then you better add an encryption accelerator to the box because the little CPU is not capable of doing more than 8MB of AES-128 per second (tested via openssl speed). With scp I never got more than 1MB/s throughput. I see pretty similar cpu use from Blowfish in software compared to 3des-cbc in hardware on a 4801 with scp. Software AES-128 is a little slower. I don't have an AES accelerator to try. http://memberwebs.com/nielsen/freebsd/slow-cpu-routers.html implements polling for hifn, which the author has found to help for some cases (notably IPSEC: 9.95 Mbit with polling vs. 7.2 MBit without polling). The soekris has such a slow CPU that any kind of work is expensive. True, and the MHz is only part of the story.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Hi, On 2006/02/03 20:34, Josh Tolley wrote: All that being said, we 1) didn't have an encryption accelerator in the box that would tend to make things worse anyway - you'll just increase the rate of interrupts and that seems to be the main problem. for a something fast like aes it might be true, for 3des this statement ist wrong. never did stuff with the 45xx but I can remember that for pushing 1mbit/s 3des I needed 133MHz on old 486er CPU and a P1-166MMX could barely handle 2mbit/s. so with the accelerater you can handle T1/E1 easily, without it you are lost. some benchmarks from years ago... bye, siggi.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Tim Donahue wrote: On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:54, Darrin Chandler wrote: Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for You could look at www.soekris.com. They're underpowered, but it should be able to handle home router/firewall duties. Underpowered? I think that is a really relative term. Underpowered for datamining a 1 TB database? Yeah it probably is, however from my experience I could saturate a 1.5 Mb SDSL or T-1 link using an IPSEC VPN on between a Soekris 4501 and a 1GHz Dell POS. If all you are looking to do is run a firewall for a DSL/Cable connection at home, the 4501 is likely overpowered. Tim Donahue Be careful with Soekris. While DSL speed is stuck at 1.5 MB for you, many users are getting 6MB and higher is some parts of the world. It would not be advantageous to buy something like a soekris and grow out of it in 2 years when your ISP gets around to offering REAL speeds.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
I am using a openbrick-e for years now as a home firewall, runs smooth with openbsd. http://shopping.hacom.net/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_45 -- No virus was found in this outgoing message as I didn't bother looking. This is not an automated signature. I type this in to the bottom of every message.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On Fri, 3 Feb 2006, Wijnand Wiersma wrote: I am using a openbrick-e for years now as a home firewall, runs smooth with openbsd. http://shopping.hacom.net/catalog/index.php?cPath=22_45 I support this. I have 3 of those and they're just great. No noise, very low power comsumption and for something this size, they're fast. -- Antoine
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
While we are at this, are there any small devices like this that can firewall at 1000mbit? I am looking for some nice options for transparant bridges but I don't like to add 1u servers for this in the racks. Wijnand -- No virus was found in this outgoing message as I didn't bother looking. This is not an automated signature. I type this in to the bottom of every message.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Joe S wrote: Be careful with Soekris. While DSL speed is stuck at 1.5 MB for you, many users are getting 6MB and higher is some parts of the world. It would not be advantageous to buy something like a soekris and grow out of it in 2 years when your ISP gets around to offering REAL speeds. Has anyone ever actually pushed a Soekris all out to see when it begins to choke? If so, where did it/they top out? It's great to remind us yanks that our residential broadband sucks compared to EUR and asia, but as you say, we'll catch up eventually.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On 2/3/06, Chris Zakelj [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Has anyone ever actually pushed a Soekris all out to see when it begins to choke? If so, where did it/they top out? It's great to remind us yanks that our residential broadband sucks compared to EUR and asia, but as you say, we'll catch up eventually. I wish I knew actual numbers, but I know that I had two net4801's as endpoints of an IPsec tunnel, each on 1.5 Mbit/s lines running OpenBSD 3.5 or 3.6. Someone started pushing a big file across the line, and suddenly one of the routers dropped off the internet because it had no CPU left after trying to handle all the encrypting and decrypting. Again, I don't know how much traffic that really amounted to -- however fast two boxes can go across good 1.5 Mbit lines and 40 miles of southern California. Turning on altq and capping the bandwidth available to that tunnel fixed the problem (though it made some users unhappy when they couldn't transfer their files as quickly). All that being said, we 1) didn't have an encryption accelerator in the box and 2) didn't really spend any time doing performance tuning on it, so someone who worked at it could probably get more out of it. -Josh Tolley
OpenBSD hardware router
I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On Feb 2, 2006, at 3:41 PM, Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? You must be new around here. :) http://www.soekris.com -- Jason Dixon DixonGroup Consulting http://www.dixongroup.net
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? You could look at www.soekris.com. They're underpowered, but it should be able to handle home router/firewall duties. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ |
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Have you checked out the Soekris boxes at kd85.com? Regards, Craig On Thu, 2006-02-02 at 14:41 -0600, Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann This was posted just yesterday on undeadly.org, from the article you can see this: http://www.kd85.com/ Just scroll down three images and then start looking. You also have the URL for the hardware, that look plenty small to me and very nice. I don't think you need that many ports, but just the base version would give you three, Internet, DMZ and home LAN. Perfect for the job! Plus I think it is definitely not to expensive and as for power, well, no fan in there, not much power required there. Daniel
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann If you are trying not to spend a lot of money, you could find an almost free laptop (200 - 300 mhz) and use that. Cost will go up if you don't already have some PCMCIA or USB ethernet and wireless cards.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 03:50:08PM -0500, Jason Dixon wrote: You must be new around here. :) http://www.soekris.com Those boards are just cute (I got a net4801 from Wim last year), but I wish they were a little bit cheaper. Ciao, Kili
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:54, Darrin Chandler wrote: Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for You could look at www.soekris.com. They're underpowered, but it should be able to handle home router/firewall duties. Underpowered? I think that is a really relative term. Underpowered for datamining a 1 TB database? Yeah it probably is, however from my experience I could saturate a 1.5 Mb SDSL or T-1 link using an IPSEC VPN on between a Soekris 4501 and a 1GHz Dell POS. If all you are looking to do is run a firewall for a DSL/Cable connection at home, the 4501 is likely overpowered. Tim Donahue
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:07:51 -0500 Will H. Backman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann If you are trying not to spend a lot of money, you could find an almost free laptop (200 - 300 mhz) and use that. Cost will go up if you don't already have some PCMCIA or USB ethernet and wireless cards. Nah, laptop aren't designed for those uses. As mention before, by quite some people :-), go for soekris. -- Security is decided by quality -- Theo de Raadt [demime 1.01d removed an attachment of type application/pgp-signature]
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Any chance of buying one of those here from Brazil? On 2/2/06, Will H. Backman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann If you are trying not to spend a lot of money, you could find an almost free laptop (200 - 300 mhz) and use that. Cost will go up if you don't already have some PCMCIA or USB ethernet and wireless cards. -- Felipe Brant Scarel PATUX/OpenBSD Project Leader (http://www.patux.cic.unb.br)
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Matthias Kilian wrote: On Thu, Feb 02, 2006 at 03:50:08PM -0500, Jason Dixon wrote: You must be new around here. :) http://www.soekris.com Those boards are just cute (I got a net4801 from Wim last year), but I wish they were a little bit cheaper. Ciao, Kili I'm surfing those links and they seem to be exactly what I was seeking. Thanks! Kenny Mann
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Underpowered? I think that is a really relative term. Underpowered for datamining a 1 TB database? Yeah it probably is, however from my experience I could saturate a 1.5 Mb SDSL or T-1 link using an IPSEC VPN on between a Soekris 4501 and a 1GHz Dell POS. If all you are looking to do is run a firewall for a DSL/Cable connection at home, the 4501 is likely overpowered. Underpowered as a firewall in front of a large web site. fwiw, having one as a carp/cluster front end to www.ualberta.ca runs it at the blding edge - I did it temporarily to solve a problem and it worked, but was pretty much balls to the wall frequently. after swapping it out with a real machine it was fine. Basically for home nets to normal broadband connectivity they are ok as a firewall. They are borderline on 10mbit links depending on your ruleset. Simplle pf rulesets (at least in my experience) will run one out of jam at about 40 mbit of traffic, so just be aware of what the limitations are. If you want something with a little more grunt try nexcomm or comell, but for home use (and it's *just* a firewall) a soekris will do fine. (and is cheaper than those other things) -Bob -- | | | The ASCII Fork Campaign \|/ against gratuitous use of threads. |
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Tim Donahue wrote: On Thursday 02 February 2006 15:54, Darrin Chandler wrote: Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for You could look at www.soekris.com. They're underpowered, but it should be able to handle home router/firewall duties. Underpowered? I think that is a really relative term. Underpowered for datamining a 1 TB database? Yeah it probably is, however from my experience I could saturate a 1.5 Mb SDSL or T-1 link using an IPSEC VPN on between a Soekris 4501 and a 1GHz Dell POS. If all you are looking to do is run a firewall for a DSL/Cable connection at home, the 4501 is likely overpowered. Tim Donahue I'm remembering some load problems, and a holdoff patch. Perhaps it's not an issue now. Don't forget that I said it should work as a home router. -- Darrin Chandler| Phoenix BSD Users Group [EMAIL PROTECTED] | http://bsd.phoenix.az.us/ http://www.stilyagin.com/ |
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On 2/2/06, Kenny Mann [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. This will be used for a house (~ 4 people) and I'm looking for something small in form factor and that which doesn't run hot because it will run in a closet. I'm seeking to replace our D-Link router because it seems to lock up on an occasion and this seem like a fun little project to do. I'd also like it to have wireless capabilities as well. Anyone know where I can start looking or can point in a direction to start? Or are my hopes too high and I should just get a PC and make it happen that route (pun not intended)? Kenny Mann Don't forget the wrap: http://www.pcengines.ch/wrap.htm They're slightly cheaper than the soekris. I use one with 3.8 and it runs as a cable router/firewall and runs ipsec between home and work.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Jasper Lievisse Adriaanse wrote: On Thu, 02 Feb 2006 16:07:51 -0500 Will H. Backman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: If you are trying not to spend a lot of money, you could find an almost free laptop (200 - 300 mhz) and use that. Cost will go up if you don't already have some PCMCIA or USB ethernet and wireless cards. Nah, laptop aren't designed for those uses. As mention before, by quite some people :-), go for soekris. Says who? Been doing this with a 75 dollar 233MHz laptop at home for almost three years now... Granted, the laptop HD crashed a few months ago, but now this WAP/firewall has 60GB of shared storage... and sits quietly on the top shelf of my laundry room.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
On 2006/02/02 15:36, Darrin Chandler wrote: Underpowered? I think that is a really relative term. Underpowered for datamining a 1 TB database? Yeah it probably is, however from my experience I could saturate a 1.5 Mb SDSL or T-1 link using an IPSEC VPN on between a Soekris 4501 and a 1GHz Dell POS. If all you are looking to do is run a firewall for a DSL/Cable connection at home, the 4501 is likely overpowered. I'm remembering some load problems, and a holdoff patch. Perhaps it's not an issue now. Don't forget that I said it should work as a home router. Holdoff helps only a little. Using better nics helps only a little. Polling helps quite a lot more on these, but that's on some other OS, I forget which. They're very good at some things (low-power system for controlling other kit via gpio(4), ADSL firewall, etc) and bad at others (high network throughput, fast fileserving, etc). WRAP boards are somewhat similar, cheaper but more barebones e.g. no battery amongst other things, and the standard cases are uglier.
Re: OpenBSD hardware router
Kenny Mann wrote: I'm looking for something that which I can slap OpenBSD 3.8 on and use it as a router. I have had great experience with VIA's Mini-itx boards. My home router is a VIA EPIA 500, and it is overpowered for a home, but it is fun to play with! Luke
