Re: [Mixxx-devel] LateNight and Shade skins in Mixxx 2.1

[Stéphane Lepin]

Hi everyone,
I think a dedicated "carts-only" skin, with only samplers and library
access, could be an interesting addition for radio people, as this category
of users would not be immediately interested by the DJing decks while
looking for a cartwall software. I quickly tweaked LateNight to add more
sampler decks, so I will try to make a draft cartwall-only skin.

Idea: add a dedicated window for the cartwall/sampler decks. This would
especially be useful for home radio studios, where radio DJs with
dual-monitor setups could use Mixxx's DJ decks (with or without AutoDJ) on
one screen and put a large cartwall window on another screen.

Kind regards,
Stéphane Lepin

2017-05-27 22:35 GMT+02:00 Daniel Schürmann :

> Hi,
>
> I have found a good reference for a card wall player I had in mind:
> https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JBaUZo51mg
>
> I think it would be far more straight forward to start from the scratch
> instead of putting this into Deere and Tango. On the other hand It will
> also work as a view setting for one of them: "Radio mode"
> Finally it is only the way to get to it. Switch skin vs. Switch view
> option. Remember that we had a lot more skins in Mixxx 1.1, one for every
> resolution.
>
>
> > I don't think "instantly usable by default" is necessary, as long as it
> is easy and obvious how to configure the skin settings for a radio DJ use
> case.
>
> Yes, that is the point. A new user should be instantly be aware that Mixxx
> has a radio mode, that's all.
>
> > I suggest trying Tango and the updated Deere skins on your netbook
> before deciding to put in the work to update Shade. If there are some
> modifications we can make to those skins to work better for netbooks, that
> would be a lot less work than updating Shade.
>
> Yes of cause, I will do this, this is already planed.
>
> >> How about to save the yellowish​ into Deere?
> >> This way we can argue, that we have merged Deere and LateNight?
>
> > Definitely not. The reason I started working on Deere was because I like
> its color scheme.
>
> Why not, you could keep the blue color schema and add a yellow one.
> The colour is just a matter of taste and it was considered as beautiful
> when it was introduced. Sometimes a color can also be an eye-catching and
> characteristic design, even it is out of fashion.
>
>
> >> Also, there's another debate that is ignored but should not, and has to
> do with loading times. It is known that Deere takes nearly double the time
> than Latenight to load. On a fast machine this is just a minor thing (if
> you're not relaunching the application many times to test something), but
> on older machines speed can be a decision to choose one over another.
> >> I don't know if it is fully consequence of using SVG vs PNG, or other
> reasons apply.
>
> > That is an issue. I'm not sure why there is such a big difference in
> load times. If rendering SVGs is the issue, we could cache the rendered
> SVGs in the user settings folder the first time a skin is loaded for faster
> startup times after that. That way the vectors can be scaled appropriately
> for the screen resolution and have faster startups.
>
> The SVG rendering is one mayor time eater. The other are the plenty skin
> options, because all of them are instantiated in the device memory.
>
> Pre rendering the SVGs will help, but it will bypass the graphic card
> rendering and scaling in Mac OS. Keeping a low end skin is IMHO more
> straight forward here and solves both issues.
>
>
>
>
>
> Am 27.05.2017 um 18:29 schrieb Be:
>
>>
>>
>> On 05/27/2017 11:00 AM, Josep Maria Antolin wrote:
>>  > Also, there's another debate that is ignored but should not, and has to
>>  > do with loading times. It is known that Deere takes nearly double the
>>  > time than Latenight to load. On a fast machine this is just a minor
>>  > thing (if you're not relaunching the application many times to test
>>  > something), but on older machines speed can be a decision to choose one
>>  > over another.
>>  > I don't know if it is fully consequence of using SVG vs PNG, or other
>>  > reasons apply.
>>
>> That is an issue. I'm not sure why there is such a big difference in load
>> times. If rendering SVGs is the issue, we could cache the rendered SVGs in
>> the user settings folder the first time a skin is loaded for faster startup
>> times after that. That way the vectors can be scaled appropriately for the
>> screen resolution and have faster startups.
>>
>> On 05/27/2017 11:00 AM, Josep Maria Antolin wrote:
>>
>> I am not too good at graphics, and haven't looked much about making
>>> skins, so I'm not be best candidate to maintain the skin, althought
>>> seeing that the other option is removing the skin, I guess I will have
>>> to take some time and work the todo list that you mentioned above.
>>> I guess we could remove some of the yellow parts too, or at least make
>>> them color schemes.
>>>
>>>
>> I'm not too good at graphics either, but most of what you need is 

Re: [Mixxx-devel] LateNight and Shade skins in Mixxx 2.1

[Daniel Schürmann]

Hi,

I have found a good reference for a card wall player I had in mind:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1JBaUZo51mg

I think it would be far more straight forward to start from the scratch 
instead of putting this into Deere and Tango. On the other hand It will 
also work as a view setting for one of them: "Radio mode"
Finally it is only the way to get to it. Switch skin vs. Switch view 
option. Remember that we had a lot more skins in Mixxx 1.1, one for 
every resolution.



> I don't think "instantly usable by default" is necessary, as long as 
it is easy and obvious how to configure the skin settings for a radio DJ 
use case.


Yes, that is the point. A new user should be instantly be aware that 
Mixxx has a radio mode, that's all.


> I suggest trying Tango and the updated Deere skins on your netbook 
before deciding to put in the work to update Shade. If there are some 
modifications we can make to those skins to work better for netbooks, 
that would be a lot less work than updating Shade.


Yes of cause, I will do this, this is already planed.

>> How about to save the yellowish​ into Deere?
>> This way we can argue, that we have merged Deere and LateNight?

> Definitely not. The reason I started working on Deere was because I 
like its color scheme.


Why not, you could keep the blue color schema and add a yellow one.
The colour is just a matter of taste and it was considered as beautiful 
when it was introduced. Sometimes a color can also be an eye-catching 
and characteristic design, even it is out of fashion.



>> Also, there's another debate that is ignored but should not, and has 
to do with loading times. It is known that Deere takes nearly double the 
time than Latenight to load. On a fast machine this is just a minor 
thing (if you're not relaunching the application many times to test 
something), but on older machines speed can be a decision to choose one 
over another.
>> I don't know if it is fully consequence of using SVG vs PNG, or 
other reasons apply.


> That is an issue. I'm not sure why there is such a big difference in 
load times. If rendering SVGs is the issue, we could cache the rendered 
SVGs in the user settings folder the first time a skin is loaded for 
faster startup times after that. That way the vectors can be scaled 
appropriately for the screen resolution and have faster startups.


The SVG rendering is one mayor time eater. The other are the plenty skin 
options, because all of them are instantiated in the device memory.


Pre rendering the SVGs will help, but it will bypass the graphic card 
rendering and scaling in Mac OS. Keeping a low end skin is IMHO more 
straight forward here and solves both issues.





Am 27.05.2017 um 18:29 schrieb Be:



On 05/27/2017 11:00 AM, Josep Maria Antolin wrote:
 > Also, there's another debate that is ignored but should not, and has to
 > do with loading times. It is known that Deere takes nearly double the
 > time than Latenight to load. On a fast machine this is just a minor
 > thing (if you're not relaunching the application many times to test
 > something), but on older machines speed can be a decision to choose one
 > over another.
 > I don't know if it is fully consequence of using SVG vs PNG, or other
 > reasons apply.

That is an issue. I'm not sure why there is such a big difference in 
load times. If rendering SVGs is the issue, we could cache the rendered 
SVGs in the user settings folder the first time a skin is loaded for 
faster startup times after that. That way the vectors can be scaled 
appropriately for the screen resolution and have faster startups.


On 05/27/2017 11:00 AM, Josep Maria Antolin wrote:


I am not too good at graphics, and haven't looked much about making
skins, so I'm not be best candidate to maintain the skin, althought
seeing that the other option is removing the skin, I guess I will have
to take some time and work the todo list that you mentioned above.
I guess we could remove some of the yellow parts too, or at least make
them color schemes.



I'm not too good at graphics either, but most of what you need is 
already there. It's mostly a matter of rearranging the UI with the skin 
XML. There are a few new icons that will need to be made. Even if you 
aren't great at graphics you can make a first draft for those icons 
while working on the skin XML. Then someone who has more graphic design 
skill can tweak the icons.


Speaking of which, if anyone wants to improve the new beatloop and 
reloop icons in Deere 2.1, please contribute.


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Re: [Mixxx-devel] LateNight and Shade skins in Mixxx 2.1

[Be]

On 05/27/2017 11:00 AM, Josep Maria Antolin wrote:
> Also, there's another debate that is ignored but should not, and has to
> do with loading times. It is known that Deere takes nearly double the
> time than Latenight to load. On a fast machine this is just a minor
> thing (if you're not relaunching the application many times to test
> something), but on older machines speed can be a decision to choose one
> over another.
> I don't know if it is fully consequence of using SVG vs PNG, or other
> reasons apply.

That is an issue. I'm not sure why there is such a big difference in 
load times. If rendering SVGs is the issue, we could cache the rendered 
SVGs in the user settings folder the first time a skin is loaded for 
faster startup times after that. That way the vectors can be scaled 
appropriately for the screen resolution and have faster startups.


On 05/27/2017 11:00 AM, Josep Maria Antolin wrote:


I am not too good at graphics, and haven't looked much about making
skins, so I'm not be best candidate to maintain the skin, althought
seeing that the other option is removing the skin, I guess I will have
to take some time and work the todo list that you mentioned above.
I guess we could remove some of the yellow parts too, or at least make
them color schemes.



I'm not too good at graphics either, but most of what you need is 
already there. It's mostly a matter of rearranging the UI with the skin 
XML. There are a few new icons that will need to be made. Even if you 
aren't great at graphics you can make a first draft for those icons 
while working on the skin XML. Then someone who has more graphic design 
skill can tweak the icons.


Speaking of which, if anyone wants to improve the new beatloop and 
reloop icons in Deere 2.1, please contribute.


--
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Re: [Mixxx-devel] LateNight and Shade skins in Mixxx 2.1

[Josep Maria Antolin]

I see we have oppinions for each and every side.
I thought that Shade was the only really useless skin, as a leftover from
older versions and now I read one of the main developers is actually using
it, either partially or fully.

When moving from 1.11 (only a few months) to 1.12/2.0 I also felt Deere as
an "alien", being quite different to what it used to be. Said that, i I had
to doublecheck Deere 1.1 to realize that what I want from Latenight is that
it kept the Deere look.

Also, there's another debate that is ignored but should not, and has to do
with loading times. It is known that Deere takes nearly double the time
than Latenight to load. On a fast machine this is just a minor thing (if
you're not relaunching the application many times to test something), but
on older machines speed can be a decision to choose one over another.
I don't know if it is fully consequence of using SVG vs PNG, or other
reasons apply.


I am not too good at graphics, and haven't looked much about making skins,
so I'm not be best candidate to maintain the skin, althought seeing that
the other option is removing the skin, I guess I will have to take some
time and work the todo list that you mentioned above.
I guess we could remove some of the yellow parts too, or at least make them
color schemes.
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Re: [Mixxx-devel] LateNight and Shade skins in Mixxx 2.1

[Be]

On 05/27/2017 10:01 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

By the way: in terms of beauty, I am still sad about dropping 1.1 Deere.
This was quite polished am unique.


I looked back at the 1.11 release announcement and found a screenshot of 
this skin:

http://mixxxblog.blogspot.com/2013/05/mixxx-1110-is-here.html

I agree, that looks good. I feel that LateNight could be a much better 
looking skin if it traded the yellow colors for the gray used by the old 
1.11 Deere. But there is still the issue of updating the skin for 2.1. 
Do we have any volunteers?


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Re: [Mixxx-devel] LateNight and Shade skins in Mixxx 2.1

[Be]

On 05/27/2017 10:01 AM, Daniel Schürmann wrote:

If we want to desig n for radio DJs, we should do usability tests
with radio DJs. Watching real people interact with the design is
much more useful than asking people on the Internet for feedback.
Usability tests are quite easy to do:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTW1yYUqBm8



I fully agree. I hope Stéphane, finds time during his GSoC to do some
usability tests with his colleagues (real radio DJs).


That would be great.




What's a Card Wall Player?


Maybe one else in this list can explain it. AFAIK, it is a button grid
with buttons to start samples. The buttons have different colours and
blink schemas to indicate the state and type. In a GUI these infos can
be plain text as well.



It's not clear to me how the new sampler GUIs in Tango and Deere 
wouldn't satisfy this. Maybe there could be some small modifications to 
those designs to accommodate radio DJs more, but we need to hear from 
radio DJs about that.



If there are improvements that would help radio users, I'd rather

modify Tango and Deere than fork them or make a new skin.

I welcome a Card Wall Player in Tango and Deere. But this does not
replace a dedicated radio skin which is instantly usable by default.



I don't think "instantly usable by default" is necessary, as long as it 
is easy and obvious how to configure the skin settings for a radio DJ 
use case.





A good skin maintainer for a radio skin, is most likely not a good
maintainer for a DJ skin. But a good skin with a consistent
design is
maintained the best by a single developer/design artist.


I disagree. A good skin is best designed by a team collaborating and
reviewing each others' work.


This is true for usability, but not for design. From my experience a
good design is usually a monolith. The team can select between Design A
and B, but a mix between both looks usually odd.
I have also the odd experience, that a good design sells better than a
good usability.


Usability is design and design is usability :)


Finally we need here a conclusion what should happen with Shade and Late
night. I a willing to put some love to Shade, since I actually use it
successfully on my Netbook.


I suggest trying Tango and the updated Deere skins on your netbook 
before deciding to put in the work to update Shade. If there are some 
modifications we can make to those skins to work better for netbooks, 
that would be a lot less work than updating Shade.



How about to save the yellowish​ into Deere?
This way we can argue, that we have merged Deere and LateNight?


Definitely not. The reason I started working on Deere was because I like 
its color scheme.




By the way: in terms of beauty, I am still sad about dropping 1.1 Deere.
This was quite polished am unique.


It would be nice if we kept an archive of screenshots of each skin in 
each version of Mixxx for easy reference. A wiki page would be a good 
place for that.


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Re: [Mixxx-devel] LateNight and Shade skins in Mixxx 2.1

[Daniel Schürmann]

Deere and Tango both support all 4 mic & aux inputs supported by Mixxx.
Fader start is not a skin issue. I think a big wall clock would probably be
better served by an actual wall clock rather than a computer screen. Deere
and Tango both have on-air indicators, but they could be more prominent if
that's desired.


It is good to have two full featured skins that features two design tastes.
By default, they schould be instantly usable for the main Mixxx use case:
live DJing
and the school allow access to almost all features. Allow to configure them
for other use-cases is also a good idea, as long there is no drawback for
the main use-case. So we are on the right track here.

With add additional skins, we do not need to focus on full featured live
DJing. We have the chance to "promote" alternative use-cases without all
considerations required for a default skin. This is IMHO true for "Radio",
"Jukebox", "Touch", "Legacy Netbook" and "Design". Loading such skins from
online is a two big thesshold for evaluating users.


If we want to desig n for radio DJs, we should do usability tests with
radio DJs. Watching real people interact with the design is much more
useful than asking people on the Internet for feedback. Usability tests are
quite easy to do: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTW1yYUqBm8


I fully agree. I hope Stéphane, finds time during his GSoC to do some
usability tests with his colleagues (real radio DJs).


What's a Card Wall Player?


Maybe one else in this list can explain it. AFAIK, it is a button grid with
buttons to start samples. The buttons have different colours and blink
schemas to indicate the state and type. In a GUI these infos can be plain
text as well.

> If there are improvements that would help radio users, I'd rather modify
Tango and Deere than fork them or make a new skin.

I welcome a Card Wall Player in Tango and Deere. But this does not replace
a dedicated radio skin which is instantly usable by default.


>
> A good skin maintainer for a radio skin, is most likely not a good
> maintainer for a DJ skin. But a good skin with a consistent design is
> maintained the best by a single developer/design artist.
>
>
I disagree. A good skin is best designed by a team collaborating and
reviewing each others' work.


This is true for usability, but not for design. From my experience a good
design is usually a monolith. The team can select between Design A and B,
but a mix between both looks usually odd.
I have also the odd experience, that a good design sells better than a good
usability.


>

All skins should support all features, otherwise some users will have to
choose between features and their preferred aesthetics. Users should not be
tied to a skin because their controller mapping doesn't work well with
other skins.


I disagree. If we have a let's say radio skin with an outstanding design.
It is just a pity for the average user he cannot choose that.

I think Deere and Tango both demonstrate that if a GUI is well designed it
can satisfy many use cases without the maintenance burden of a skin for
each use case.


Good work so far! But not a reason to reject other already working skins.

We need peer review, input from people using Mixxx in different ways, and
empirical observations from usability tests to create good designs.


I agree if you mean usability, an not design in terms of beauty.

Like good code, good designs generally don't come from just one person
pursuing their idea.


Finally we need here a conclusion what should happen with Shade and Late
night. I a willing to put some love to Shade, since I actually use it
successfully on my Netbook.

LateNight can be IMHO dropped, since it does not provide a special use
case. How about to save the yellowish​ into Deere?
This way we can argue, that we have merged Deere and LateNight?

By the way: in terms of beauty, I am still sad about dropping 1.1 Deere.
This was quite polished am unique.
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