Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 23/01/2002 (22:02) :
The person was asking for a browser that could handle javascript. The
one you said was 'better' doesn't support Javascript, either.
No he didn't ask for that. He said he used lynx. I said w3m is better,
but it isn't when you use the browser with a screenreader then lynx is
better.
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Alas! Preben Randhol spake thus: No he didn't ask for that. He said he used lynx. I said w3m is better, but it isn't when you use the browser with a screenreader then lynx is better. He said I'm looking for a browser that supports javascript. I don't know about you, but to me this is equivalent to What browsers support javascript? Go! Read it! It's in the archives! -- Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- When his life was ruined, his family killed, his farm destroyed, Job knelt down on the ground and yelled up to the heavens, 'Why, God? Why me?' and the thundering voice of God answered, 'There's just something about you that pisses me off.' -- Stephen King msg23715/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * and then Rob 'Feztaa' Park blurted He said I'm looking for a browser that supports javascript. I don't know about you, but to me this is equivalent to What browsers support javascript? Is this thread still going? You two are like a couple of late night drinkers. The chairs are up on the tables, the barman keeps looking at his watch and there's bugger all chance of another beer. FWIW that was the way I read that part of this thread. Have fun! - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8UHrrHpvrrTa6L5oRAgB8AJ9tqRKvGqNzsz1DPAvM2bT9ayUbzwCcCQQo 12e8HAdi1F5lOaN9Y3W88sk= =+QVu -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Thu, Jan 24, 2002 at 04:11:16PM -0500, Rob 'Feztaa' Park wrote: Alas! Preben Randhol spake thus: No he didn't ask for that. He said he used lynx. I said w3m is better, but it isn't when you use the browser with a screenreader then lynx is better. He said I'm looking for a browser that supports javascript. I don't know about you, but to me this is equivalent to What browsers support javascript? Go! Read it! It's in the archives! Is anybody else getting tired of this debate? Could you fellas take this off-line somewhere? I've been using mutt for a couple of years though I've only been on this list a couple of weeks. The signal-to-noise ratio here really sucks. Ross
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * and then Ross A. Osborn blurted Is anybody else getting tired of this debate? Could you fellas take this off-line somewhere? No! Don't kill it now, I was there at the begining and I've come over all parental at thought of killing such a beutiful monster. I've been using mutt for a couple of years though I've only been on this list a couple of weeks. The signal-to-noise ratio here really sucks. Rubbish! ;-) - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8UILHHpvrrTa6L5oRAjYuAJ9EDbJJ3OhaWIdDTPfuxtGBe/A2eQCfU2nx TL+iaUsE+cQsvnXElPSfPGs= =1cAn -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Preben Randhol wrote: Thomas E. Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 23/01/2002 (19:11) : You're not responding to his question. (w3m doesn't do javascript No I didn't say it did. I just said w3m is better than lynx. tsk, tsk (you should go back and read the paragraph to which you responded) either). And the comment about screen-readers indicates that w3m and links would be worse choices than lynx. Don't know how a screen reader works, so can you please explain why it would be worse? I've been told (more than once) that screen readers are line-oriented. They don't handle two-dimension layout of the sort that people tend to contrive when attempting to use html as a layout description. -- T.E.Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Thomas E. Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 23/01/2002 (20:31) :
tsk, tsk (you should go back and read the paragraph to which you
responded)
Yes I have done it 3 times and I don't understand your point. If you
could please be more clear when you post comments it would be nice.
There were no questions in that paragraph.
I've been told (more than once) that screen readers are line-oriented.
They don't handle two-dimension layout of the sort that people tend to
contrive when attempting to use html as a layout description.
Can they handle javascript?
Preben
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Tue, Jan 22, 2002 at 08:28:14PM +0100, Nick Wilson wrote: -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * and then Christian Schoepplein blurted Is this because of the keystroke vs mouse click thing? I've been using more and more console apps over the last few months and generally find that programs like Mutt are sooo worth the initial learning curve with regard my eyesight /and/ general ease of use. The problem with GUI screen readers, in general is that, unlike a console screen, where there is a fixed memory location which contains the actual character representationsi of the text on the screen, GUI's (M$, Mac, or X) do not have a single array of memory that represents THE SCREEN in text form. GUI screenreaders need to intercept application calls to the GUI rendering system, and build / maintain what is sometimes known as an Off Screen Model of the display that the screen reader reads from. Compared to that, point and clicking with a keyboard is quite trivial. For links, try searching for the NFB (National Federation for the Blind in the US, or Henter-Joyce (publisher of the Jaws screenreader) or Outspoken (I forget who sells that). aloha, dave
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Wed, 23 Jan 2002, Preben Randhol wrote: Thomas E. Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 23/01/2002 (20:31) : tsk, tsk (you should go back and read the paragraph to which you responded) Yes I have done it 3 times and I don't understand your point. If you could please be more clear when you post comments it would be nice. There were no questions in that paragraph. I've been told (more than once) that screen readers are line-oriented. They don't handle two-dimension layout of the sort that people tend to contrive when attempting to use html as a layout description. Can they handle javascript? According to some webpages, JAWS and a few other applications will read hidden text, including some inferences about JavaScript. But a quick search doesn't say that in so many words - it's not 100% clear: my impression is that they're acting as the browser. The screen readers appear to just render whatever text is put onto the screen. But that's a static view - doesn't account for things moving around or being presented out of order. So I expect that the request was for something that could handle that situation, by directing the screen reader's focus to the newly presented text. None of lynx/w3m/links do that. (Let's leave netrix out of the discussion ;-) -- T.E.Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Alas! Benjamin Smith spake thus: Useful for what exactly? I don't really see anything useful below that I couldn't find out simply by looking at your orignal message. Yes, but the same could be said for all quoted text, so why quote at all? -- Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- An error? Impossible! My modem is error correcting. msg23610/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * and then Rob 'Feztaa' Park blurted Yes, but the same could be said for all quoted text, so why quote at all? That's a good point! A few people went a little 'foaming at the mouth' on this topic over tha last few days but it all boils down to just a little tolerance of what others perceive as necessary quoting and I may not. As long as no one get's really quote happy all is well :) - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TyQWHpvrrTa6L5oRApyyAJ9FYt3bXVsYiqHyn9Y+9NnbAhzBvACffzGz z5D82wg0HTPmeLWWCzgo4cI= =VjiW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Alas! Preben Randhol spake thus: Yes I have done it 3 times and I don't understand your point. If you could please be more clear when you post comments it would be nice. There were no questions in that paragraph. The person was asking for a browser that could handle javascript. The one you said was 'better' doesn't support Javascript, either. -- Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Sex is hereditary. If your parents never had it, chances are you won't, either. -- Joseph Fischer msg23613/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 22-01-02 at 09:17 * Rob 'Feztaa' Park said Alas! Nick Wilson spake thus: * On 21-01-02 at 23:17 Brian Foley said Some of the more extreme past members of this list would have blasted you out of the water for: a) using a two-line attribution at the top of all your quotes Oops, I just thought it looked neater as it was a little long. I don't think it does any harm though eh? I think it looks much better on one line, like I changed yours to above. Also, you could try to be creative with your attribution, like me or others here. I must admit to toying with several ideas but not coming up with anything I was happy enough with yet. You're right about the one line thing though and as soon as I can come up with something suitably silly I'm in. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TSEXHpvrrTa6L5oRAnzcAJ4qGPJtyxmdHutDq9vK6WPGxpeLgwCZAWmm uhb8rEcw9TcBe/xWdH/CM+0= =ndXq -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 22-01-02 at 09:17 * Thomas Hurst said _Replying to a message_ By: Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mutt Users' List [EMAIL PROTECTED] On: Monday, January 21, 2002, 16:54:47 -0700 Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers I agree, although I question the actual utility of dates and times in attributions; if people need that sort of detail shouldn't they look up the thread? Also, you could try to be creative with your attribution, like me or others here. Like mine? It's only 6 lines, and it's *so* useful. Honest.. I think yours might be just a little much, I'm getting my arse kicked here about trimming, a six line attribution? That's as good as David's quotation chars :) - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TSIEHpvrrTa6L5oRAqEWAJ96Qr88c6XGD+z9Sj77n9bY5mw2gQCfX+Gt kolj3mbHn5P+t7KZJsk6C5s= =NaQb -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 22-01-02 at 09:17 * Jonathan Irving said Simple: defaults. Default behaviour is what most non-technical users end up with. I've heard it called flashing 12:00 syndrome, referencing the inability of most over-12-year-olds to program a VCR. Hehe, I like the 'flashing 12:00 reference although I'm sure the age limit is a little higher. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TSLzHpvrrTa6L5oRAsdgAJ9IG6ZVu9akqCvCMGNmr3evOhlHlgCcDgpr IEKhbzMTTJ5ibpo4LxE2Gfk= =sUyU -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 22-01-02 at 09:17 * Rob 'Feztaa' Park said TheBat! is by far the best windows mail program I've seen (unless mutt is available for windows and I don't know about it). It sure beats Netscape Mail or LookOut, anyway. Does it support threading? I've been idly looking for something to reccomend to Win users that frequent some of the mailing lists I'm on. You don't really appreciate threading untill you've tried to follow a topic on a list full of Outhouse users. Of course, that's like saying I have the best tasting poo out of everybody here! ;) Hey! I havn't even had breakfast yet! - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TSRXHpvrrTa6L5oRAjuaAKCEblBGi0bm42D7cT2CXx0nQ7HsGACgp3Ky T9PZ7zSNSZ1QcKW4/H8gjDM= =DrDE -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] [22-01-2002 09:20]: Also, you could try to be creative with your attribution, like me or others here. I must admit to toying with several ideas but not coming up with anything I was happy enough with yet. You're right about the one line thing though and as soon as I can come up with something suitably silly I'm in. I think everybody should have at least once read Sven Guckes' FAQ on email and Usenet messages: http://www.math.fu-berlin.de/~guckes/ I don't agree with all of it, but his hints sure are helpful to make up one's mind! Bye, -- René Clerc - ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Alimony is a system by which, when two people make a mistake, one of them continues to pay for it. -Peggy Joyce msg23514/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Brian, et al -- ...and then Brian Clark said... % % * Jonathan Irving ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 21. 2002 18:57]: % % Emacs and Pine both support per-message quote characters. I % think the idea is to choose something that identifies the person, % like: % % Hehe, no no, I meant *that exact quote prefix* :-) It'd take me forever % to find the thread in the archives because I wouldn't know what to look Not so tough; just surf over to the archives site and look for that exact string. % for, but it was the thread where someone was picking on Dave's (%) quote % prefix. (I gather this isn't the first time someone on the list has % picked on him about that prefix. ;-)) It has been rather brutal lately, but, interestingly enough, all I ever got were a few polite questions about it before that. There was some sort of worldwide change and all of a sudden everybody loves to hate me! :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23519/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Rob -- ...and then Feztaa said... % % Alas! Brian Clark spake thus: % % I've used clients like TheBat! before that do it as you've pointed out % below: % % BCThis line is quoted text % BCThis line is quoted text % % TheBat! is by far the best windows mail program I've seen (unless mutt Yes, it is; I haven't tried it, but it is either available with the latest CygWin stuff or can be compiled up thereunder. From what I hear it actually works, too. Check the archives. % is available for windows and I don't know about it). It sure beats % Netscape Mail or LookOut, anyway. Well, how tough is that? :-) % % Of course, that's like saying I have the best tasting poo out of % everybody here! ;) Ick. Leave it to Rob to keep the discussion classy! :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23520/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Derek -- ...and then Derek D. Martin said... % o/ /o At some point hitherto, René Clerc hath spake thusly: o/ /o I've finally come to my senses; changed from '| ' to ' '. Now it's up o/ /o to that other pagan, David, to change ;) O / / / O O / / / O And there was much rejoicing... ;-) Hey, watch it, pal! :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23521/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Nick -- ...and then Nick Wilson said... % % * On 22-01-02 at 09:17 % * Thomas Hurst said % % Like mine? It's only 6 lines, and it's *so* useful. Honest.. % % I think yours might be just a little much, I'm getting my arse kicked % here about trimming, a six line attribution? That's as good as David's % quotation chars :) Hey! On whose side are you? Oh, the betrayal! % % -- % % Nick Wilson % % Tel: +45 3325 0688 % Fax: +45 3325 0677 % Web: www.explodingnet.com % :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23524/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Brian Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 22/01/2002 (00:01) :
It seems they're all LookOut users as well. Where the heck people get
that crap is beyond me.
I thought the program was called LockOut ;-)
Another annoying thing is the 10 line disclaimer from companies that
this is a private e-mail and that if you have gotten it should return
the e-mail to the company bla bla bla etc... I have always wondered what
is so privat on a mailinglist. :-)
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Cameron Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (22:12) :
You can't. It's rude anyway. The amount of time you spend trimming stuff
to just the relevant stuff is _more_ than outweghed by the time saved
to the list members as a whole, not to mention the readability of the
mail archives and everything else.
Bullshit. Get a better editor or learn to use vim.
In Alexander Skwar's signature in another thread here I found two links
that should be interesting for others as well.
How to quote:
http://quote.6x.to
http://learn.to/quote (german)
Preben
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Preben Randhol [EMAIL PROTECTED] [22-01-2002 12:13]: Cameron Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (22:12) : You can't. It's rude anyway. The amount of time you spend trimming stuff to just the relevant stuff is _more_ than outweghed by the time saved to the list members as a whole, not to mention the readability of the mail archives and everything else. Bullshit. Get a better editor or learn to use vim. In Alexander Skwar's signature in another thread here I found two links that should be interesting for others as well. How to quote: http://quote.6x.to http://learn.to/quote (german) Apart from the useful links, you're missing the point. Cameron was saying that the amount of time spent trimming is _outweighed_ by the time saved. That means that he means that one _should_ trim! -- René Clerc - ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) The new growth in the plant swelling against the sheath, which at the same time imprisons and protects it, must still be the truest type of progress. -Jane Addams msg23533/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
René Clerc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 22/01/2002 (12:26) :
Apart from the useful links, you're missing the point. Cameron was
saying that the amount of time spent trimming is _outweighed_ by the
time saved. That means that he means that one _should_ trim!
This is not correct at all. It is just lazyness as you also
demonstrated. It took me max 2 seconds to trim this mail.
Preben
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Preben Randhol [EMAIL PROTECTED] [22-01-2002 12:28]: René Clerc [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 22/01/2002 (12:26) : Apart from the useful links, you're missing the point. Cameron was saying that the amount of time spent trimming is _outweighed_ by the time saved. That means that he means that one _should_ trim! This is not correct at all. It is just lazyness as you also demonstrated. It took me max 2 seconds to trim this mail. You're overdoing it. You're *way* overdoing it. Get back to my mail. If I just quoted you, it would start with Bullshit. I think it would be convenient for the readers to read *in context* (that means, in the same mail) what you think is bullshit. Same reason why I leave my text quoted in this mail. You're this is a direct reference, which IMHO *must* be included. Before I write a reply, I _do_ trim. And it usually takes me over 2 seconds. I'm not lazy. -- René Clerc - ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) A toast to the kisses you've snatched and vice-versa. msg23535/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* On 22-01-02 at 12:28 * René Clerc said Apart from the useful links, you're missing the point. Cameron was saying that the amount of time spent trimming is _outweighed_ by the time saved. That means that he means that one _should_ trim! Thank god for that, I thought I was going mad :) -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com msg23536/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* On 22-01-02 at 12:43 * René Clerc said Apart from the useful links, you're missing the point. Cameron was saying that the amount of time spent trimming is _outweighed_ by the time saved. That means that he means that one _should_ trim! This is not correct at all. It is just lazyness as you also demonstrated. It took me max 2 seconds to trim this mail. This is getting silly, although I'm kinda glad to see that I'm not the only one getting flamed by the ridiculously righteous anymore (sorry Rene :) You're overdoing it. You're *way* overdoing it. Get back to my mail. If I just quoted you, it would start with Bullshit. I think it would be convenient for the readers to read *in context* (that means, in the same mail) what you think is bullshit. Here, here, behave Preben your being somewhat over zealos at best and downright silly at worst. -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com msg23537/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Tue, 22 Jan 2002, Preben Randhol wrote: Cameron Simpson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (22:12) : You can't. It's rude anyway. The amount of time you spend trimming stuff to just the relevant stuff is _more_ than outweghed by the time saved to the list members as a whole, not to mention the readability of the mail archives and everything else. Bullshit. Get a better editor or learn to use vim. indeed. (not that I use vim, but reading your statement literally, vim is not a better editor). -- T.E.Dickey [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://invisible-island.net ftp://invisible-island.net
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* David T-G ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 22. 2002 05:21]: ...and then Brian Clark said... % Hehe, no no, I meant *that exact quote prefix* :-) It'd take me % forever to find the thread in the archives because I wouldn't know % what to look Not so tough; just surf over to the archives site and look for that exact string. asdfghjhkl.. Not that exact string bg, but something equally as silly. You get the idea -- I was trying to get the point across without knowing exactly what the quote prefix was. OK, everyone confused yet? :-)) % for, but it was the thread where someone was picking on Dave's (%) % quote prefix. (I gather this isn't the first time someone on the % list has picked on him about that prefix. ;-)) It has been rather brutal lately, but, interestingly enough, all I ever got were a few polite questions about it before that. There was some sort of worldwide change and all of a sudden everybody loves to hate me! Well, FWIW, I could care less about your quote prefix, unless you happen to change it to: o/ \o o/ Which I saw earlier, coming from your client, so don't even think about it! :-) -- Brian Clark | Avoiding the general public since 1805! Fingerprint: 07CE FA37 8DF6 A109 8119 076B B5A2 E5FB E4D0 C7C8 Earth first! We'll strip-mine the other planets later.
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Preben Randhol ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 22. 2002 06:07]: Another annoying thing is the 10 line disclaimer from companies that Especially when they are up top. this is a private e-mail and that if you have gotten it should return the e-mail to the company bla bla bla etc... I have always wondered what is so privat on a mailinglist. :-) I think I remember someone telling me once that their company's MTA did that, and it was beyond their control. That has to be embarrassing. :-( -- Brian Clark | Avoiding the general public since 1805! Fingerprint: 07CE FA37 8DF6 A109 8119 076B B5A2 E5FB E4D0 C7C8 Enter any 11 digit prime number to continue.
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Brian -- ...and then Brian Clark said... % % * David T-G ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 22. 2002 05:21]: % % ...and then Brian Clark said... % % % Hehe, no no, I meant *that exact quote prefix* :-) It'd take me % % forever to find the thread in the archives because I wouldn't know % % what to look % % Not so tough; just surf over to the archives site and look for that % exact string. % % asdfghjhkl.. Not that exact string bg, but something equally as % silly. You get the idea -- I was trying to get the point across without % knowing exactly what the quote prefix was. OK, everyone confused yet? % :-)) *grin* % % % for, but it was the thread where someone was picking on Dave's (%) % % quote prefix. (I gather this isn't the first time someone on the % % list has picked on him about that prefix. ;-)) % % It has been rather brutal lately, but, interestingly enough, all I % ever got were a few polite questions about it before that. There was % some sort of worldwide change and all of a sudden everybody loves to % hate me! % % Well, FWIW, I could care less about your quote prefix, unless you happen % to change it to: % % o/ % \o % o/ Not quite... There was no \ in it, 'cuz it was o/ /o Recognize it yet? There's also O / / / O for the somewhat more obnoxious, to of course be followed by OOO / O O / OOO / / / OOO / O O / OOO when someone is shouting. % % Which I saw earlier, coming from your client, so don't even think about % it! :-) BWA HA HA ha hahahaha! % % -- % Brian Clark | Avoiding the general public since 1805! % Fingerprint: 07CE FA37 8DF6 A109 8119 076B B5A2 E5FB E4D0 C7C8 % Earth first! We'll strip-mine the other planets later. :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23551/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 22-01-02 at 15:06 * Brian Clark said * David T-G ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 22. 2002 05:21]: % for, but it was the thread where someone was picking on Dave's (%) % quote prefix. (I gather this isn't the first time someone on the % list has picked on him about that prefix. ;-)) Anyone remember the subject or something of that thread, I'd like to have a look at it. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TXQdHpvrrTa6L5oRApvUAKCOJy3m9U9MGRbQoJ2kgS5wJbaB7QCfShO4 pc+o725D0Wc3tBxH3CvMa3M= =zSm+ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: back to quoting (was Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers)
Nick -- ...and then Nick Wilson said... % % * On 22-01-02 at 15:06 % * Brian Clark said % % * David T-G ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 22. 2002 05:21]: % % % for, but it was the thread where someone was picking on Dave's (%) % % quote prefix. (I gather this isn't the first time someone on the % % list has picked on him about that prefix. ;-)) % % Anyone remember the subject or something of that thread, I'd like to % have a look at it. The subject was 'Quoting when replying', and it got nasty around 12/17. % % -- % % Nick Wilson % % Tel: +45 3325 0688 % Fax: +45 3325 0677 % Web: www.explodingnet.com % :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23555/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Alas! Nick Wilson spake thus: How do you tell if you are sending to a blind user? Are you blind?? I'm /registered/ blind. But I see okay in reasonable light. Good to know. Now I have to ask everybody else... -- Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- The Love Bird is 100% faithful to his mate, as long as they are locked together in the same cage. -- Will Cuppy msg23565/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Hi all! On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 10:43:40AM -0500, Derek D. Martin wrote: This is irrelevant. Over-quoting is inconsiderate, and affects everyone. It causes us to have to wade through a bunch of irrelevant garbage to get at (and often FIND) the author's point. Quoting out of context (i.e. writing your reply and then quoting the whole message after what you've written ) is also a problem, because it removes the context of the comment, increases ambiguity, and thereby makes it harder to get the author's point, and increases the likelihood that it will be misunderstood by a wide audience. Limiting what you quote to the point that you're trying to comment on, and commenting on it immediately afterward maximizes clarity, and helps to reduce ambiguity by making it very clear what the author was intending to comment ABOUT. I agree 100%!!! To quote mails in the right way is helpful for anyboody and not only for blind or visually handicapped persons. I'm a blind computeruser and I get mor then 1000 mails the day and its really not funny to grub thru this messages, if they are quoted badly. I don't need any special netiquette for blind or something like that, my screenreader is good enough to handle most things quite well. But it annoyes me if unnecesary techniques were used, to get very simple things working. For example javaskript or flash are often difficult to handle for blind linuxusers, but many persons using this crap to setup a simple website. It takes a lot of my time to handle things like this or reading bad quoted mails. Just my 0.2$ to this monsterthread ;-). Best regards, Schoepp -- Christian Schoepplein| http://www.lily-rockt.de [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.lavish.de
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 22-01-02 at 18:08 * Christian Schoepplein said I agree 100%!!! To quote mails in the right way is helpful for anyboody and not only for blind or visually handicapped persons. I'm a blind computeruser and I get mor then 1000 mails the day and its really not funny to grub thru this messages, if they are quoted badly. I don't need I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't agree with you on that point! You don't *read* 1000 messages a day do you :) is good enough to handle most things quite well. But it annoyes me if unnecesary techniques were used, to get very simple things working. For example javaskript or flash are often difficult to handle for blind linuxusers, but many persons using this crap to setup a simple website. It And you can add hard coded font sizes in websites to that list, I know you can overide stylesheets but it's annoying to have to go to such lengths to read sites like cnn.com. Just my 0.2$ to this monsterthread ;-). Yep, and it's still growing! - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TZ7rHpvrrTa6L5oRAkUqAJ9nPFyuB/ysINBFFDVOHLGekzZRmACfRTdf B8RvBKrp+E/4HXpwni7jue8= =OUXC -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
And you can add hard coded font sizes in websites to that list, I know you can overide stylesheets but it's annoying to have to go to such lengths to read sites like cnn.com. It's actually really easy to do in mozilla. Just add one line to your prefs.js and you're done, forever. No recurring annoyance, no per-site policies. user_pref(font.minimum-size.x-western, 13); See http://www.mozilla.org/unix/customizing.html for details. Search the page for the string Don't ever -- Mike Schiraldi VeriSign Applied Research smime.p7s Description: application/pkcs7-signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* David T-G [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] on [22-01-02] wrote: Hey! On whose side are you? Oh, the betrayal! % % -- % % Nick Wilson % % Tel:+45 3325 0688 % Fax:+45 3325 0677 % Web:www.explodingnet.com % David, Some people seem to be turning over a new leaf after participating in this thread. Any chance you could save us another ~10 lines of useless information by not quoting peoples sigs? Brian 'then we will talk about your quote char' Foley
Re: back to quoting (was Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers)
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 22-01-02 at 15:58 * David T-G said % Anyone remember the subject or something of that thread, I'd like to % have a look at it. The subject was 'Quoting when replying', and it got nasty around 12/17. Whooa! That was almost as ugly as this thread has been in places. Geeks can be real bitchy huh? - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TbJqHpvrrTa6L5oRAorcAKCASWiA1sQyC1PxIE+2kSDr6cR3yACeKjQI VX4wX416f+TpdhFnb5h4sdY= =hRxI -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Hi Nick! On Die, Jan 22, 2002 at 06:18:35 +0100, Nick Wilson wrote: I agree 100%!!! To quote mails in the right way is helpful for anyboody and not only for blind or visually handicapped persons. I'm a blind computeruser and I get mor then 1000 mails the day and its really not funny to grub thru this messages, if they are quoted badly. I don't need I don't think there's anyone who wouldn't agree with you on that point! You don't *read* 1000 messages a day do you :) Not every day, but sometimes I have to ;-). is good enough to handle most things quite well. But it annoyes me if unnecesary techniques were used, to get very simple things working. For example javaskript or flash are often difficult to handle for blind linuxusers, but many persons using this crap to setup a simple website. It And you can add hard coded font sizes in websites to that list, I know you can overide stylesheets but it's annoying to have to go to such lengths to read sites like cnn.com. No, the problem is, that I have to work on the textbased console if I want to use linux, becouse there is no screenreader (speech or brailleoutput) for totaly blind people which makes the grafical enviroment (kde etc.) accessible. So I have to use for example lynx to visit websites, but lynx has no support for javascript. There are windowsscreenreaders who can handle javascript (for example jaws), but I don't want to use windows to much ;-). Linux is a perfect system for blind computerusers and even if you are restricted on the textbased enviroment you can do many things better than on m$-systems und there are a lot of very good programms (for example mutt ;-)). There are only to big problems for my: The first is the webbrowser and the second is an officeaplication wich is compartible with the ms-office (I sometimes hav to write text in word for my job). Best regards, Schoepp -- Christian Schoepplein| http://www.lily-rockt.de [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.lavish.de
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * and then Christian Schoepplein blurted And you can add hard coded font sizes in websites to that list, I know you can overide stylesheets but it's annoying to have to go to such lengths to read sites like cnn.com. No, the problem is, that I have to work on the textbased console if I want to use linux, becouse there is no screenreader (speech or brailleoutput) for totaly blind people which makes the grafical enviroment (kde etc.) accessible. So I have to use for example lynx to visit websites, but lynx has no support for javascript. There are windowsscreenreaders who can handle javascript (for example jaws), but I don't want to use windows to much ;-). Linux is a perfect system for blind computerusers and even if you are restricted on the textbased enviroment Is this because of the keystroke vs mouse click thing? I've been using more and more console apps over the last few months and generally find that programs like Mutt are sooo worth the initial learning curve with regard my eyesight /and/ general ease of use. I'd love it if you could send me (off list I think) any useful links on this topic. problems for my: The first is the webbrowser and the second is an officeaplication wich is compartible with the ms-office (I sometimes hav to write text in word for my job). Yeah, I can imagine. Lynx is great but only really good for techy sites and manuals and stuff. No idea about compatible office software, I use Star Office in X but even that isn't /really/ compatible. Take care - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8Tb1OHpvrrTa6L5oRAp3lAJsEW5C9HAGrIOQ9uDHsmz4NDr0uqgCfZFgv F2tpJwuaCncMSDGM/YPcofI= =K2HT -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 05:25:56PM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote: Remember that for many blind users these messages are being spoken to the reader by a voder. Where it's merely inconsiderate to not trim quotations when replying ordinarily, when replying to a blind user it becomes outright rude. Just something to bear in mind. Learn to use your screenreader better, and teach it to ignore or skip over quote chars at the start of a new line. aloha, ( HTH ) dave
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Dave Price ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 05:25:56PM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote: Where it's merely inconsiderate to not trim quotations when replying ordinarily, when replying to a blind user it becomes outright rude. Learn to use your screenreader better, and teach it to ignore or skip over quote chars at the start of a new line. That would still leave you with a truckload of repeated and mostly irrelevent cruft, and not only for someone using a screenreader. Being able to skip quotes is no excuse not to trim them; not caring whether people will simply ignore your message because it appears to have no content isn't either. Perhaps mutt should demand confirmation for sending messages with more than 80% quoting.. -- Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aagh.net/ - I finally got it all together... but I forgot where I put it.
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 14:40 * Thomas Hurst said * Dave Price ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 05:25:56PM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote: Where it's merely inconsiderate to not trim quotations when replying ordinarily, when replying to a blind user it becomes outright rude. Learn to use your screenreader better, and teach it to ignore or skip over quote chars at the start of a new line. That would still leave you with a truckload of repeated and mostly irrelevent cruft, and not only for someone using a screenreader. Being able to skip quotes is no excuse not to trim them; not caring whether people will simply ignore your message because it appears to have no content isn't either. How do you tell if you are sending to a blind user? I'm very poor sighted and as a result there are many things I wish people did that they don't that would make my life easier. However, if we spend all our time worrying about every minority problem/consideration we'll never get *anything* done :) Perhaps mutt should demand confirmation for sending messages with more than 80% quoting.. Nah, people gotta choose how they do thier stuff. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD4DBQE8TBuOHpvrrTa6L5oRAr7SAKCJKYgmsV+DstK+UTB6I+8qSWNCqQCWMdMj Snkr9TOCC/NuQFc/VEYmPw== =JdQc -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Dave Price [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (14:25) :
Learn to use your screenreader better, and teach it to ignore or skip
over quote chars at the start of a new line.
There is no point in sending a load of quoted stuff to anybody. Cut it
down to relevant part before you send. This is common net etiquette.
Preben
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (14:47) :
people did that they don't that would make my life easier. However, if
we spend all our time worrying about every minority
problem/consideration we'll never get *anything* done :)
Is it not a minority problem.
Preben
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Nick Wilson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: * On 21-01-02 at 14:40 * Thomas Hurst said Being able to skip quotes is no excuse not to trim them; not caring whether people will simply ignore your message because it appears to have no content isn't either. How do you tell if you are sending to a blind user? You don't; quoting properly has nothing to do with who you're sending to, it's just basic email etiquette. That it's easier for the blind to read is just a consequence of the mail being generally easier to read. My eyesight's fine, but I still find overquoting annoying and unnecessary. I'm very poor sighted and as a result there are many things I wish people did that they don't that would make my life easier. Such as? Have you discovered the wonders of user CSS files that let you force websites to use sensible font types/sizes and well contrasted colours? :) You can also use them to block a decent proportion of banner ads if your browser's smart enough.. However, if we spend all our time worrying about every minority problem/consideration we'll never get *anything* done :) No, but basic email etiquette isn't a minority consideration; like following W3C recommendations and RFC's, it benefits everyone. Perhaps mutt should demand confirmation for sending messages with more than 80% quoting.. Nah, people gotta choose how they do thier stuff. Then they can hit 'y', or put warn_overquoting = no in their .muttrc Warning: Message contains 98% quotes in body. Send anyway? [Y/n] -- Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aagh.net/ - Hello, he lied. -- Don Carpenter, quoting a Hollywood agent
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 15:08 * Preben Randhol said Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (14:47) : people did that they don't that would make my life easier. However, if we spend all our time worrying about every minority problem/consideration we'll never get *anything* done :) Is it not a minority problem. Sure it is, ask people who have reasonable sight how many blind/partially blind people they know. I don't know any. I think cutting down emails is definately a good thing but the way you've cut this for example is overdoing it. That's a *very* selective piece of editing there Preben. I agree with Dave, time spent adjusting the screen reader would be a good investment *as well* as people being sensible with their replys. Sheesh, you think this is bad? Take a look at the RedHat list :=) - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TCkpHpvrrTa6L5oRAoWAAJ9zTM+LQiL333nTiUDt7E/isu228gCgpB9/ LHUL3X4dOP6VDhxsfQpRAks= =VHme -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 15:38 * Thomas Hurst said * Nick Wilson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: How do you tell if you are sending to a blind user? You don't; quoting properly has nothing to do with who you're sending to, it's just basic email etiquette. That it's easier for the blind to read is just a consequence of the mail being generally easier to read. I agree whole heartedly. My point is that how much to quote is a matter for interpretation and what Preben finds excessive, I may find neccessary. Although I think we can all agree on the extremes and reach sensible tolerance levels. I'm very poor sighted and as a result there are many things I wish people did that they don't that would make my life easier. Such as? Overtaking me on my bike on the *inside*, I'm giving up cycling in town this year mainly because if everyone followed the rules there'd be no problem but when people do stuff I'm not expecting it can get a little dangerous for everyone. And I wish the supermarkets would keep stuff in the same places! Have you discovered the wonders of user CSS files that let you force websites to use sensible font types/sizes and well contrasted colours? :) Sure, don't find I need it that often though. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TCsZHpvrrTa6L5oRAvP8AJ40A51dC8+SAJA4x0Xqdzs3cL3dgQCgs87S orI1CLg/VzAwh4ZznRw76RA= =6Nx3 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
At some point hitherto, Dave Price hath spake thusly: On Mon, Jan 21, 2002 at 05:25:56PM +1100, Cameron Simpson wrote: to the reader by a voder. Where it's merely inconsiderate to not trim quotations when replying ordinarily, when replying to a blind user it becomes outright rude. Learn to use your screenreader better, and teach it to ignore or skip over quote chars at the start of a new line. That's a pretty inconsiderate attitude to take, and doesn't solve the problem for people who still have to pay for their bandwidth, as is not so uncommon in non-US locations. -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org msg23445/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 16:47 * Derek D. Martin said Learn to use your screenreader better, and teach it to ignore or skip over quote chars at the start of a new line. That's a pretty inconsiderate attitude to take, and doesn't solve the problem for people who still have to pay for their bandwidth, as is not so uncommon in non-US locations. I think the quote is taken a little out of context. Bandwidth's a bugger on mailing lists huh? - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TDi+HpvrrTa6L5oRAmvZAKCbFGPgyIfTl1ux2QfUN6nmEqYKhwCeIZR+ aWW3R+ez3fOlv2VdO79HvFE= =zAdH -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
At some point hitherto, Nick Wilson hath spake thusly: * On 21-01-02 at 15:08 * Preben Randhol said Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (14:47) : people did that they don't that would make my life easier. However, if we spend all our time worrying about every minority problem/consideration we'll never get *anything* done :) Is it not a minority problem. Sure it is, ask people who have reasonable sight how many blind/partially blind people they know. This is irrelevant. Over-quoting is inconsiderate, and affects everyone. It causes us to have to wade through a bunch of irrelevant garbage to get at (and often FIND) the author's point. Quoting out of context (i.e. writing your reply and then quoting the whole message after what you've written ) is also a problem, because it removes the context of the comment, increases ambiguity, and thereby makes it harder to get the author's point, and increases the likelihood that it will be misunderstood by a wide audience. Limiting what you quote to the point that you're trying to comment on, and commenting on it immediately afterward maximizes clarity, and helps to reduce ambiguity by making it very clear what the author was intending to comment ABOUT. I think cutting down emails is definately a good thing but the way you've cut this for example is overdoing it. That's a *very* selective piece of editing there Preben. I disagree entirely. The comment Preben quoted above is EXACTLY the ammount that is needed to identify what his comment is in reference to (assuming you've been following the thread at all), no more and no less. -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org msg23449/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 16:58 * Derek D. Martin said Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (14:47) : people did that they don't that would make my life easier. However, if we spend all our time worrying about every minority problem/consideration we'll never get *anything* done :) Is it not a minority problem. Sure it is, ask people who have reasonable sight how many blind/partially blind people they know. This is irrelevant. Over-quoting is inconsiderate, and affects everyone. It causes us to have to wade through a bunch of irrelevant garbage to get at (and often FIND) the author's point. Quoting out of context (i.e. writing your reply and then quoting the whole message after what you've written ) is also a problem, because it removes the context of the comment, increases ambiguity, and thereby makes it harder to get the author's point, and increases the likelihood that it will be misunderstood by a wide audience. Well we certainly agree so far. Apart from the 'this is irrelevant bit' If you go back over the messages in the thread you'll see the point. I think cutting down emails is definately a good thing but the way you've cut this for example is overdoing it. That's a *very* selective piece of editing there Preben. I disagree entirely. The comment Preben quoted above is EXACTLY the ammount that is needed to identify what his comment is in reference to less. And there's where we differ, my point was just that the line above where preben decided to quote me was rather important. Is that where the hostile tone is coming from? (assuming you've been following the thread at all), no more and no Come on. :) - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TD9oHpvrrTa6L5oRApdLAJ4iAJMTPgFfiRTgGBe//azQ9g3+iACcDIZQ GXm8FSNgbBvb8DFhyd2+fLM= =h/2o -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (17:20) :
[snipped away several quotes that should have been cut down in the
previous post]
And there's where we differ, my point was just that the line above where
preben decided to quote me was rather important. Is that where the
hostile tone is coming from?
No there is no hostile tone. But I wonder why one should quote large
parts of a mail when everybody has alread read it. If one cannot follow
a thread then on should go back and read the mails again. Over-quoted mails
are like Word documents. You get a 100kb document containing 400b text.
Preben
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (16:50) :
I think the quote is taken a little out of context.
Bandwidth's a bugger on mailing lists huh?
If you get about 1000 overquoted mails a day, it is.
Preben
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 17:41 * Preben Randhol said Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (17:20) : And there's where we differ, my point was just that the line above where preben decided to quote me was rather important. Is that where the hostile tone is coming from? No there is no hostile tone. But I wonder why one should quote large well, it wasn't you I was refering to Preben. There was *definately* a hostile tone in the response from Derek which I think came from me daring to call blindess a minority problem. (Bad Wilson. in your basket!) parts of a mail when everybody has alread read it. If one cannot follow a thread then on should go back and read the mails again. Over-quoted mails are like Word documents. You get a 100kb document containing 400b text. I agree, I've been agreeing all along, I'm not sure where I've picked up the 'Nick believes in over-quoting' badge. Not true, not true. Regards - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TEbFHpvrrTa6L5oRAoG0AJoDIUZbbrbDYsqldtYFtzkUknG25wCgo4rR wm0cz0SX6gxlODzH/8lD+5U= =fzUG -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
At some point hitherto, Nick Wilson hath spake thusly: * On 21-01-02 at 16:58 * Derek D. Martin said [Preben said:] Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (14:47) : people did that they don't that would make my life easier. However, if we spend all our time worrying about every minority problem/consideration we'll never get *anything* done :) Is it not a minority problem. Sure it is, ask people who have reasonable sight how many blind/partially blind people they know. This is irrelevant. Over-quoting is inconsiderate, and affects everyone. It causes us to have to wade through a bunch of irrelevant garbage to get at (and often FIND) the author's point. Quoting out of context (i.e. writing your reply and then quoting the whole message after what you've written ) is also a problem, because it removes the context of the comment, increases ambiguity, and thereby makes it harder to get the author's point, and increases the likelihood that it will be misunderstood by a wide audience. Well we certainly agree so far. Apart from the 'this is irrelevant bit' If you go back over the messages in the thread you'll see the point. See above where Preben said this is not a minority problem. He was refering to the fact that it is a much BROADER problem than just one that affects minorities. Your comment is irrelevant to that argument. (Preben: please correct me if I'm mistaken.) I think cutting down emails is definately a good thing but the way you've cut this for example is overdoing it. That's a *very* selective piece of editing there Preben. I disagree entirely. The comment Preben quoted above is EXACTLY the ammount that is needed to identify what his comment is in reference to less. And there's where we differ, my point was just that the line above where preben decided to quote me was rather important. If you've been following the thread, it's not important. Because you've already read it. :) If you're not following the thread, but you suddenly decide it's important, GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! You've already received the e-mails, so you should have them. If you don't, there's always the archives. (mutt-users has archives, doesn't it?) Is that where the hostile tone is coming from? Not hostile. Matter-of-fact, yes. Occasionally emphatic, yes. But never hostile. (assuming you've been following the thread at all), no more and no Come on. :) Come on where? My point is perfectly valid. You've either read the thread or you haven't... If not, then why jump into the middle of it, without reading it? Ok, ok, I admit I do this occasionally too. But if you don't have enough context in a message from a thread, then you really ought to (re)read the thread to see what it's about, rather than expecting everyone else to waste bandwidth. -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org msg23460/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 18:07 * Derek D. Martin said If you're not following the thread, but you suddenly decide it's important, GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! You've already received the e-mails, so you should have them. If you don't, there's always the archives. (mutt-users has archives, doesn't it?) Is that where the hostile tone is coming from? Not hostile. Matter-of-fact, yes. Occasionally emphatic, yes. But never hostile. Disagree, all this GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! nonsense is insulting. Of course I've been reading the thread. (assuming you've been following the thread at all), no more and no Come on. :) Come on where? My point is perfectly valid. You've either read the thread or you haven't... If not, then why jump into the middle of it, without reading it? Ok, ok, I admit I do this occasionally too. But if you don't have enough context in a message from a thread, then you really ought to (re)read the thread to see what it's about, rather than expecting everyone else to waste bandwidth. I'm not expecting anyone to do anything. I have read the thread. I don't like your rudeness and I'm taking my ball back. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TE2lHpvrrTa6L5oRAi2sAJ0YdcJEDS7kq4JZvVNXU05L8n+pjwCfRhq9 s46/nuR+Icrag1t+hXnev2c= =AUF8 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Nick -- ...and then Nick Wilson said... % % I agree, I've been agreeing all along, I'm not sure where I've picked up % the 'Nick believes in over-quoting' badge. Not true, not true. Come, Nick... Join me... Join the dark side and piss off everyone on the mutt-users list... I am your father! *grin* % % Regards % -- % % Nick Wilson :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23463/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Nick, et al -- ...and then Nick Wilson said... % % * On 21-01-02 at 18:07 % * Derek D. Martin said % % If you're not following the thread, but you suddenly decide it's % important, GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! You've already received the % e-mails, so you should have them. If you don't, there's always the % archives. (mutt-users has archives, doesn't it?) % % Is that where the hostile tone is coming from? % % Not hostile. Matter-of-fact, yes. Occasionally emphatic, yes. But % never hostile. % % Disagree, all this GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! nonsense is insulting. % Of course I've been reading the thread. I don't think the comment is directed at you; we know you've been reading. I think that the argument is that leaving in large amounts of quoted text (or, in the Outhouse way, the entire past history of the universe without the benefit of context quoting or even in-order presentation) is pointless; those who have been reading along will know what's up, and those who haven't should go back to the original messages instead of expecting everyone to reread the same stuff with every post just so that someone new could come up to speed in one message. HTH HAND :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23465/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 18:27 * David T-G said % I agree, I've been agreeing all along, I'm not sure where I've picked up % the 'Nick believes in over-quoting' badge. Not true, not true. Come, Nick... Join me... Join the dark side and piss off everyone on the mutt-users list... I am your father! Haha, at last the voice of sanity! This thread was begging to ruin my day, silly me, all it needed was a bit of slap with the stupidity stick. Nice one! - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TFDYHpvrrTa6L5oRArnpAKCyBLiDDPs/nhPYk94Qup58FWPgzwCffzPo 7UlzDJ2qcDr7gGiGwRgTFE4= =lcSW -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 At some point hitherto, Nick Wilson hath spake thusly: If you're not following the thread, but you suddenly decide it's important, GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! You've already received the e-mails, so you should have them. If you don't, there's always the archives. (mutt-users has archives, doesn't it?) Is that where the hostile tone is coming from? Not hostile. Matter-of-fact, yes. Occasionally emphatic, yes. But never hostile. Disagree, all this GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! nonsense is insulting. Of course I've been reading the thread. Well, all I can say is, I think you're easily insulted if you find everything that's said with emphasis to be insulting. I add emphasis to indicate where the points of my arguments are, and to clarify or highlight certain things. I apologize if you find that insulting, but I think you're being over-sensitive. - -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) Comment: For info see http://www.gnupg.org iD8DBQE8TEzodjdlQoHP510RAuDKAJ9VHUdoFbDk8FawFBb0aTpHhd7FsgCgu35H f0DxgfiAyuXK1SAIdOAqrow= =L1V8 -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
At some point hitherto, David T-G hath spake thusly: % Disagree, all this GO BACK AND READ THE THREAD! nonsense is insulting. % Of course I've been reading the thread. I don't think the comment is directed at you; we know you've been reading. I think that the argument is that leaving in large amounts of quoted text (or, in the Outhouse way, the entire past history of the universe without the benefit of context quoting or even in-order presentation) is pointless; those who have been reading along will know what's up, and those who haven't should go back to the original messages instead of expecting everyone to reread the same stuff with every post just so that someone new could come up to speed in one message. Precisely. -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org msg23468/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Nick -- ...and then Nick Wilson said... % % * On 21-01-02 at 18:27 % * David T-G said % % % the 'Nick believes in over-quoting' badge. Not true, not true. % % Come, Nick... Join me... Join the dark side and piss off everyone on % the mutt-users list... I am your father! % % Haha, at last the voice of sanity! % This thread was begging to ruin my day, silly me, all it needed was a % bit of slap with the stupidity stick. Ha! Hey, count me in for slapping folks around; I'm here to do my part. You should change your quote char. I'd find '@' particularly annoying, and nobody is using it yet. % % Nice one! Happy to help :-) % % -- % % Nick Wilson % % Tel: +45 3325 0688 % Fax: +45 3325 0677 % Web: www.explodingnet.com % :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg23469/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Derek D. Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote on 21/01/2002 (18:05) :
See above where Preben said this is not a minority problem. He was
refering to the fact that it is a much BROADER problem than just one
that affects minorities. Your comment is irrelevant to that argument.
(Preben: please correct me if I'm mistaken.)
You are not mistaken :-)
Preben
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Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On 14:45 21 Jan 2002, Nick Wilson [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: | That would still leave you with a truckload of repeated and mostly | irrelevent cruft, and not only for someone using a screenreader. | | Being able to skip quotes is no excuse not to trim them; not caring | whether people will simply ignore your message because it appears to | have no content isn't either. | | How do you tell if you are sending to a blind user? You can't. It's rude anyway. The amount of time you spend trimming stuff to just the relevant stuff is _more_ than outweghed by the time saved to the list members as a whole, not to mention the readability of the mail archives and everything else. -- Cameron Simpson, DoD#743[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.zip.com.au/~cs/ Too much of a good thing is never enough. - Luba
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 22:15 * Cameron Simpson said | | How do you tell if you are sending to a blind user? You can't. It's rude anyway. The amount of time you spend trimming stuff Rude to do what? I don't follow you. to just the relevant stuff is _more_ than outweghed by the time saved to the list members as a whole, not to mention the readability of the mail archives and everything else. As I've said half a dozen times in this thread I *whole heartedly* support and practice the trimming of list mail. I'm for it. Deal me in. I agree. Help I'm losing my mind! Cold beans 'aint hot. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TIe0HpvrrTa6L5oRAnODAJ46mmHskHZzrSmltC+w0/OhgTEclACgrD1E S/oGsUObUD/nUm1bERMcLJs= =tRKm -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 22:29 * Nick Wilson said Seeing as the sender of these next few lines didn't seem to want to send them to the list. Here they are in all thier glory. - --- Funny that your reply on 'not trimming' was hardly (if at all) trimmed I'm very poor sighted and as a result there are many things I wish people did that they don't that would make my life easier. Yea, like it might be nice if every could read nicely trimmed messages. : - I'm sorry guys but I feel that my messages are usually trimmed quite thoughtfully. I have no reason to think that I'm doing anything wrong and on that basis I will carry on as I am. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TIxlHpvrrTa6L5oRAvIpAJwLjE/1ipBJVMGu0I9QpSg68ueW9ACeKwJk DwUBPCk9R/XwiLIG/rH84IQ= =tDXh -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* David T-G [EMAIL PROTECTED] [21-01-2002 18:56]: [to Nick] You should change your quote char. I'd find '@' particularly annoying, and nobody is using it yet. I've finally come to my senses; changed from '| ' to ' '. Now it's up to that other pagan, David, to change ;) -- René Clerc - ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) Doing more with less. -Buckminster Fuller msg23480/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Nick Wilson [[EMAIL PROTECTED]] on [21-01-02] wrote: Seeing as the sender of these next few lines didn't seem to want to send them to the list. Here they are in all thier glory. I got this email, did you bounce it to mutt-users as well? I'm sorry guys but I feel that my messages are usually trimmed quite thoughtfully. I have no reason to think that I'm doing anything wrong and on that basis I will carry on as I am. Some of the more extreme past members of this list would have blasted you out of the water for: a) using a two-line attribution at the top of all your quotes b) using a non standard sig (not delimited with -- and more than 4 lines) I dont take issue with you for points a and b above, but it would make you emails neater (but that is a highly subjective term). On another note, I thank you for using as your quote char. As regards quoting, just pare it down to the minimum, there are certain people on this list who go out of their way to quote and reply to even the most trivial words in a post. I think this is wrong, but you dont do that. Good man. Brian
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* On 21-01-02 at 23:04 * René Clerc said * David T-G [EMAIL PROTECTED] [21-01-2002 18:56]: [to Nick] You should change your quote char. I'd find '@' particularly annoying, and nobody is using it yet. Reckon there could be a reason there David. Hehe. I've finally come to my senses; changed from '| ' to ' '. Now it's up to that other pagan, David, to change ;) You think that'll happen? I like the @ idea but I think or could be pretty bad too. -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com msg23483/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 23:17 * Brian Foley said Some of the more extreme past members of this list would have blasted you out of the water for: a) using a two-line attribution at the top of all your quotes Oops, I just thought it looked neater as it was a little long. I don't think it does any harm though eh? b) using a non standard sig (not delimited with -- and more than 4 lines) I dont take issue with you for points a and b above, but it would make you emails neater (but that is a highly subjective term). You hit the nail on the head there alright. I said somewhere way back in the misty and regretable past of this thread that neatness was very much a matter of opinion and that we could probably only hope to agree on the extremes and meet somewhere within a reasonable tolerance zone. (something like that anyway) and this thread has been a real eye opener in many ways! - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TJUJHpvrrTa6L5oRAnF8AJ9ZtK7dhsrJMTdkB2Le59tCMUzN1ACgruV0 nArZU4AD1dnfvgeclNkV4FM= =RheJ -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE- Hash: SHA1 * On 21-01-02 at 23:17 * Brian Foley said I got this email, did you bounce it to mutt-users as well? Yes, sorry about that I thought it would just end up in the thread where it belonged. - -- Nick Wilson Tel:+45 3325 0688 Fax:+45 3325 0677 Web:www.explodingnet.com -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE- Version: GnuPG v1.0.6 (GNU/Linux) iD8DBQE8TJn/HpvrrTa6L5oRAhMMAJ9ugkN/Jnxkjg8c0ZnbPvYGG3aBywCfeNLn //fiWBuJIXlFqdWas4lbBHw= =J3aL -END PGP SIGNATURE-
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Nick Wilson ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 21. 2002 17:17]: You think that'll happen? I like the @ idea but I think or could be pretty bad too. Oh no, that's not the worst. I've seen something like this on this list in the past, *in jest*, in a similar thread: This line is quoted text This line is quoted text This line is quoted text This line is quoted text Then, there's also the people that like to open a quoted paragraph with and close it with , with no prefix in between. IMO, that's the most annoying thing I've ever seen. It seems they're all LookOut users as well. Where the heck people get that crap is beyond me. -- Brian Clark | Avoiding the general public since 1805! Fingerprint: 07CE FA37 8DF6 A109 8119 076B B5A2 E5FB E4D0 C7C8 Job Placement: Telling your boss what he can do with your job.
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Alas! Nick Wilson spake thus: How do you tell if you are sending to a blind user? Are you blind?? -- Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- People who think MS-DOS and Windows are the slickest thing since sliced butter should be forced to wear a sign stating This mind intentionally left blank. msg23488/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Alas! Nick Wilson spake thus: * On 21-01-02 at 23:17 Brian Foley said Some of the more extreme past members of this list would have blasted you out of the water for: a) using a two-line attribution at the top of all your quotes Oops, I just thought it looked neater as it was a little long. I don't think it does any harm though eh? I think it looks much better on one line, like I changed yours to above. Also, you could try to be creative with your attribution, like me or others here. -- Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- I'd rather listen to [Isaac] Newton than to [Microsoft's] Mundie. He may have been dead for almost three hundred years, but despite that he stinks up the room less. -- Linus Torvalds (regarding MS's rant on open source) msg23489/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Brian Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] [21 Jan 2002 17:56 -0500]: I've seen something like this on this list in the past, *in jest*, in a similar thread: This line is quoted text This line is quoted text Emacs and Pine both support per-message quote characters. I think the idea is to choose something that identifies the person, like: BCThis line is quoted text BCThis line is quoted text Then, there's also the people that like to open a quoted paragraph with and close it with , with no prefix in between. IMO, that's the most annoying thing I've ever seen. This seems to be an AOL mailer thing. It happened a lot on a couple of film mail lists I'm on, always from AOL addresses. It seems they're all LookOut users as well. Where the heck people get that crap is beyond me. Simple: defaults. Default behaviour is what most non-technical users end up with. I've heard it called flashing 12:00 syndrome, referencing the inability of most over-12-year-olds to program a VCR. -- http://www.epic.org - Electronic Privacy Information Center msg23490/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Jonathan Irving ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 21. 2002 18:57]: [...] Emacs and Pine both support per-message quote characters. I think the idea is to choose something that identifies the person, like: Hehe, no no, I meant *that exact quote prefix* :-) It'd take me forever to find the thread in the archives because I wouldn't know what to look for, but it was the thread where someone was picking on Dave's (%) quote prefix. (I gather this isn't the first time someone on the list has picked on him about that prefix. ;-)) I've used clients like TheBat! before that do it as you've pointed out below: BCThis line is quoted text BCThis line is quoted text Now /that's/ OK with me. I probably made that a bit confusing. Then, there's also the people that like to open a quoted paragraph with and close it with , with no prefix in between. IMO, that's the most annoying thing I've ever seen. This seems to be an AOL mailer thing. It happened a lot on a couple of film mail lists I'm on, always from AOL addresses. Ah, yes I have seen that with AOL clients. But, I've seen it with Outlook users as well. I guess that tells me that people are picking up what their friends do. I guess It Is So in those circles. -- Brian Clark | Avoiding the general public since 1805! Fingerprint: 07CE FA37 8DF6 A109 8119 076B B5A2 E5FB E4D0 C7C8 Rap is to music what Etch-a-Sketch is to art.
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Brian Clark [EMAIL PROTECTED] [21 Jan 2002 19:04 -0500]: * Jonathan Irving ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 21. 2002 18:57]: Emacs and Pine both support per-message quote characters. I think the idea is to choose something that identifies the person, like: Hehe, no no, I meant *that exact quote prefix* :-) It'd take me forever to find the thread in the archives because I wouldn't know what to look for, but it was the thread where someone was picking on Dave's (%) quote prefix. (I gather this isn't the first time someone on the list has picked on him about that prefix. ;-)) Yeah, I remember the thread. I didn't realize that there were clients out there that did stuff like that. Stupid AND patronizing. Then, there's also the people that like to open a quoted paragraph with and close it with , with no prefix in between. IMO, that's the most annoying thing I've ever seen. This seems to be an AOL mailer thing. It happened a lot on a couple of film mail lists I'm on, always from AOL addresses. Ah, yes I have seen that with AOL clients. But, I've seen it with Outlook users as well. I guess that tells me that people are picking up what their friends do. I guess It Is So in those circles. Actually, it's literally correct (in the sense that quoting text using quotation marks is correct) in France I believe, although there's a single character rendition that's more often used. It would be analogous to ``closed with''. I'm sure it wasn't conceived as i18n support in this context though 8-I -- http://www.epic.org - Electronic Privacy Information Center msg23492/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Alas! Brian Clark spake thus: I've used clients like TheBat! before that do it as you've pointed out below: BCThis line is quoted text BCThis line is quoted text TheBat! is by far the best windows mail program I've seen (unless mutt is available for windows and I don't know about it). It sure beats Netscape Mail or LookOut, anyway. Of course, that's like saying I have the best tasting poo out of everybody here! ;) This seems to be an AOL mailer thing. It happened a lot on a couple of film mail lists I'm on, always from AOL addresses. Ah, yes I have seen that with AOL clients. But, I've seen it with Outlook users as well. I guess that tells me that people are picking up what their friends do. I guess It Is So in those circles. It's more than just AOL and Outlook. I have a friend who uses webmail (on his mac), and I often receive replies that look like this: Ah, yes I have seen that with AOL clients. But, I've seen it with Outlook users as well. I guess that tells me that people are picking up what their friends do. I guess It Is So in those circles. Or even like this: Ah, yes I have seen that with AOL clients. But, I've seen it with Outlook users as well. I guess that tells me that people are picking up what their friends do. I guess It Is So in those circles. It's wretched! Ugh! -- Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] -- Software is like sex: It's better when it's free. -- Linus Torvalds, from FSF T-shirt msg23496/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
At some point hitherto, René Clerc hath spake thusly: I've finally come to my senses; changed from '| ' to ' '. Now it's up to that other pagan, David, to change ;) And there was much rejoicing... ;-) -- Derek Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] - I prefer mail encrypted with PGP/GPG! GnuPG Key ID: 0x81CFE75D Retrieve my public key at http://pgp.mit.edu Learn more about it at http://www.gnupg.org msg23498/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
_Replying to a message_ By: Rob 'Feztaa' Park [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Mutt Users' List [EMAIL PROTECTED] On: Monday, January 21, 2002, 16:54:47 -0700 Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers Alas! Nick Wilson spake thus: * On 21-01-02 at 23:17 Brian Foley said I think it looks much better on one line, like I changed yours to above. I agree, although I question the actual utility of dates and times in attributions; if people need that sort of detail shouldn't they look up the thread? Also, you could try to be creative with your attribution, like me or others here. Like mine? It's only 6 lines, and it's *so* useful. Honest.. -- Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aagh.net/ - INTEREST: What borrowers pay, lenders receive, stockholders own, and burned out employees must feign.
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
No, the most annoying way is to indent using spaces, with Outlook style replies (i.e, 2-3 lines right at the top of the message). Nice huh? :) Several times I've found myself reading the quoted text thinking it's the actual reply and wondering why it looks so familiar.. * Brian Clark ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) wrote: Then, there's also the people that like to open a quoted paragraph with and close it with , with no prefix in between. IMO, that's the most annoying thing I've ever seen. (er, just pretend the *entire* message, including sigs, are included too, I can't quite bring myself to actually do that :) -- Thomas 'Freaky' Hurst - [EMAIL PROTECTED] - http://www.aagh.net/ - I was in Vegas last week. I was at the roulette table, having a lengthy argument about what I considered an Odd number. -- Steven Wright
Re: blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
* Rob 'Feztaa' Park ([EMAIL PROTECTED]) [Jan 21. 2002 20:05]: TheBat! is by far the best windows mail program I've seen (unless mutt is available for windows and I don't know about it). It sure beats Netscape Mail or LookOut, anyway. Yes, it's a good client. I used SecureBat! with the iKey token for quite a while. I'd say a lot of its qualities are Mutt-like. As far as Mutt and Windows, IIRC, one can use it with Cygwin. But, using that stuff in Windows is kind of like using electrical tape to stop a leaky pipe. [...] It's more than just AOL and Outlook. I have a friend who uses webmail (on his mac), and I often receive replies that look like this: Ah, yes I have seen that with AOL clients. But, I've seen it with Outlook users as well. I guess that tells me that people are picking up what their friends do. I guess It Is So in those circles. The version I spoke of looks like: Ah, yes I have seen that with AOL clients. But, I've seen it with Outlook users as well. I guess that tells me that people are picking up what their friends do. I guess It Is So in those circles. It's wretched! Ugh! Oh God yes. *twitch* -- Brian Clark | Avoiding the general public since 1805! Fingerprint: 07CE FA37 8DF6 A109 8119 076B B5A2 E5FB E4D0 C7C8 The generation of random numbers is too important to be left to chance.
blind etiquette Re: mutt for blind computerusers
John Kearney [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: [ a big quote from Christian Schoepplein ] [ and then a short but useful suggestion ] Remember that for many blind users these messages are being spoken to the reader by a voder. Where it's merely inconsiderate to not trim quotations when replying ordinarily, when replying to a blind user it becomes outright rude. Just something to bear in mind. -- Cameron Simpson, DoD#743[EMAIL PROTECTED]http://www.zip.com.au/~cs/
Re: mutt for blind computerusers
Hi Mutt folks,
(this idea is for the Mutt developers but since the thread came up
here, I'm continuing here. Btw. -- sorry for my recent duplicate post.
It won't happen again, folder-hook works for me now.)
There is another great use for an (optional) cursor in the internal
pager -- you could avoid using the urlview ripper.
The only feature I miss in Mutt compared to Pine 4 is just this:
Within the ususal message view, you use up and down cursor keys to
jump to a spot that looks like a URL oder Email address, hit enter
(maybe edit the URL), and url_handler.sh gets you there.
There may be people who got used to urlview but consider a typical
digest email I get every day from LinguistList. This is what urlview
extracts from it:
---snip---
1 http://linguistlist.org/
2 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2979.html
3 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2980.html
4 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2981.html
5 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2982.html
6 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2983.html
7 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2984.html
8 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2985.html
9 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2986.html
10 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2987.html
11 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2988.html
12 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2989.html
13 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2990.html
14 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2991.html
---snap---
I'm bad at remembering numbers. This is what the computer should do
for me.
On Thu, Nov 29, 2001 at 12:54:44AM +0100, Thomas Roessler wrote:
On 2001-11-28 21:23:27 +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote:
I agree with you. Perhaps there could be an optional cursor for
the internal pager.
Any takers? I'd include such a patch with mutt pretty much
immediately if it was clean.
Fine. Any takers? :-)
Cheers,
Cristian
--
}{ Cristian Pietsch
}{ http://www.interling.de
msg20867/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:15:08PM +0100, Cristian wrote: There is another great use for an (optional) cursor in the internal pager -- you could avoid using the urlview ripper. The only feature I miss in Mutt compared to Pine 4 is just this: Within the ususal message view, you use up and down cursor keys to jump to a spot that looks like a URL oder Email address, hit enter (maybe edit the URL), and url_handler.sh gets you there. There may be people who got used to urlview but consider a typical digest email I get every day from LinguistList. This is what urlview extracts from it: ---snip--- 1 http://linguistlist.org/ ... 14 http://linguistlist.org/issues/12/12-2991.html ---snap--- I'm bad at remembering numbers. This is what the computer should do for me. You can also work around this problem by using w3m as your pager for these messages. w3m will identify URLs in the text and mark them as links. You can then move the cursor over a link and follow it using either w3m or an external browswer. http://w3m.sourceforge.net/index.en.html Display-hooks let you set w3m as the pager for just those messages that you know have a lot of embedded URLs, e.g., display-hook ~A 'set pager=builtin' display-hook '~s reg headlines' 'set pager=w3m' Gary -- Gary Johnson | Agilent Technologies [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Spokane, Washington, USA http://www.spocom.com/users/gjohnson/mutt/ |
Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 04:15:08PM +0100, Cristian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mutt folks, (this idea is for the Mutt developers but since the thread came up here, I'm continuing here. Btw. -- sorry for my recent duplicate post. It won't happen again, folder-hook works for me now.) There is another great use for an (optional) cursor in the internal pager -- you could avoid using the urlview ripper. I was thinking about this a few weeks ago. While my implementation was going to be somewhat different, maybe the two will get combined. Hmm. I'll try to hack up a rough first cut to see whether my idea makes sense. -Daniel -- Daniel E. Eisenbud [EMAIL PROTECTED] We should go forth on the shortest walk perchance, in the spirit of undying adventure, never to return,--prepared to send back our embalmed hearts only as relics to our desolate kingdoms. --Henry David Thoreau, Walking
display-hooking w3m / was: mutt for blind computerusers
Hi Gary and all,
why didn't I come up with this workaround? I use w3m regularly - I
hacked my url_handler.sh into calling it when no Netscape is running
(hardly recently) and as long as Opera refuses to take remote commands
(although it says it understands them, Opera 5 and Opera 6 TP1 don't).
The workaround does not help Schoeppi a bit, of course, but it's an
interesting idea in its own right.
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:23:51AM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote:
Display-hooks let you set w3m as the pager for just those messages that
you know have a lot of embedded URLs, e.g.,
display-hook ~A 'set pager=builtin'
display-hook '~s reg headlines' 'set pager=w3m'
Could you automate it? Could you find out whether there are more
than, say, 3 URLs in a message body so it's worth to hand over control
to w3m? Can you do it without slowing down the whole Mutt?
Surely, your proposed solution will help me to read LinguistList
digests, so thank you very much so far!
Cristian
--
}{ Cristian Pietsch
}{ http://www.interling.de
msg20889/pgp0.pgp
Description: PGP signature
Re: display-hooking w3m / was: mutt for blind computerusers
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 08:48:04PM +0100, Cristian wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:23:51AM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote: Display-hooks let you set w3m as the pager for just those messages that you know have a lot of embedded URLs, e.g., display-hook ~A 'set pager=builtin' display-hook '~s reg headlines' 'set pager=w3m' Could you automate it? Could you find out whether there are more than, say, 3 URLs in a message body so it's worth to hand over control to w3m? Can you do it without slowing down the whole Mutt? I don't think so. The problem is that you would have to use an external program to count the URLs and mutt doesn't send the message text to any external program (e.g., display_filter or pager) until it has decided which pager it is going to use. An external pager wrapper program could select among a set of external pagers, but it couldn't select mutt's internal pager. I also have Ctrl-B mapped to use w3m instead of urlview, so invoking w3m on a message I'm already reading with the built-in pager is pretty simple. I just wish I could tell w3m to always find and mark URLs as links instead of having to type ':' each time. Surely, your proposed solution will help me to read LinguistList digests, so thank you very much so far! You're welcome. Gary -- Gary Johnson | Agilent Technologies [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Spokane, Washington, USA http://www.spocom.com/users/gjohnson/mutt/ |
Re: display-hooking w3m / was: mutt for blind computerusers
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:40:36PM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 08:48:04PM +0100, Cristian wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:23:51AM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote: Could you automate it? Could you find out whether there are more than, say, 3 URLs in a message body so it's worth to hand over control to w3m? Can you do it without slowing down the whole Mutt? I don't think so. The problem is that you would have to use an external program to count the URLs and mutt doesn't send the message text to any external program (e.g., display_filter or pager) until it has decided which pager it is going to use. An external pager wrapper program could select among a set of external pagers, but it couldn't select mutt's internal pager. what if you set up a procmail filter, to add a header to messages with 3 or more urls, and then have mutt match that header? would that work? -- Dan Boger [EMAIL PROTECTED] msg20894/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: display-hooking w3m / was: mutt for blind computerusers
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 03:54:33PM -0500, Dan Boger wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 12:40:36PM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 08:48:04PM +0100, Cristian wrote: On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:23:51AM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote: Could you automate it? Could you find out whether there are more than, say, 3 URLs in a message body so it's worth to hand over control to w3m? Can you do it without slowing down the whole Mutt? I don't think so. The problem is that you would have to use an external program to count the URLs and mutt doesn't send the message text to any external program (e.g., display_filter or pager) until it has decided which pager it is going to use. An external pager wrapper program could select among a set of external pagers, but it couldn't select mutt's internal pager. what if you set up a procmail filter, to add a header to messages with 3 or more urls, and then have mutt match that header? would that work? Yes, I think that would work. Gary -- Gary Johnson | Agilent Technologies [EMAIL PROTECTED] | Spokane, Washington, USA http://www.spocom.com/users/gjohnson/mutt/ |
Re: display-hooking w3m / was: mutt for blind computerusers
On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 08:48:04PM +0100, Cristian wrote: Hi Gary and all, why didn't I come up with this workaround? I use w3m regularly - I hacked my url_handler.sh into calling it when no Netscape is running (hardly recently) and as long as Opera refuses to take remote commands (although it says it understands them, Opera 5 and Opera 6 TP1 don't). The workaround does not help Schoeppi a bit, of course, but it's an interesting idea in its own right. On Fri, Nov 30, 2001 at 10:23:51AM -0800, Gary Johnson wrote: Display-hooks let you set w3m as the pager for just those messages that you know have a lot of embedded URLs, e.g., display-hook ~A 'set pager=builtin' display-hook '~s reg headlines' 'set pager=w3m' Could you automate it? Could you find out whether there are more than, say, 3 URLs in a message body so it's worth to hand over control to w3m? Can you do it without slowing down the whole Mutt? Surely, your proposed solution will help me to read LinguistList digests, so thank you very much so far! ---end quoted text--- Cristian, it IS possible for Opera to take remote commands. I do it all the time. Try the following: /usr/bin/opera '%s,new-window' I use this with klipper in mandrake 8.0+. -- Pat Shanahan Registered Linux User #207535 Registered at: http://counter.li.org
Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On 2001-11-28 21:23:27 +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote: I agree with you. Perhaps there could be an optional cursor for the internal pager. Any takers? I'd include such a patch with mutt pretty much immediately if it was clean. -- Thomas Roesslerhttp://log.does-not-exist.org/
Re: Bad Mail-Followup-To (was: mutt for blind computerusers)
Hi Vincent! On Don, Nov 29, 2001 at 01:01:31 +0100, Vincent Lefevre wrote: Christian, Your Mail-Followup-To header is broken: Mail-Followup-To: Christian Schoepplein [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] as [EMAIL PROTECTED] doesn't exist, though your From header is correct. I don't know what the reason is. Any idea? No plan, sorry... Perhaps your From header isn't correct but it is modified by your local MTA? In this case, you should set it with the my_hdr command in your muttrc. If you subscribed to the mailing-list, you should use the subscribe command too. Now I'm using the my_hdr, subscribe and lists command. I can do a listreplay which wasn't posible before. Best regards, Schoeppi -- Christian Schoepplein| http://www.lily-rockt.de [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.lavish.de
mutt for blind computerusers
Hi, I'm a blind computeruser who wants to use mutt. Most things are working very fine, I had only to change a view settings in the standardconfiguration to get mutt working with my special screenreading software (suse-blinux) and hardware devices (brailledisplay and speechsynt). But one thing is very uncomfortable... When reading a mail, there is no cursor inside mutt's internal pager which makes it unposible for my screenreading software to read the message with the normal keyboard by using the arrowkeys for example. I have to use the keys on my brailledisplay and thats really stressfull ;-). What I'm looking for is a posibility to get a cursor inside the pager which is positioned on the first letter of the line. When opening a message the cursor should be in teh first line of the mail and it would be cool to scroll to the next line (for example by pressing the arrow-down-key) and so on, till the last line of the messagetext. It would be great to be able navigating on every line of the message with the cursor, then it shuld be no problem reading a message with my screenreading software. As far as I know mutt doesn't have a solution for my problem, but maybe I'm wrong ??? Perhaps anyone has a tip how I can solve the problem or maybe it is posible to ad a new feature to mutt, that brings a cursor in to the internal pager. Thanks in advance, Schoeppi -- Christian Schoepplein| http://www.lily-rockt.de [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.lavish.de
Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 08:26:35PM +0100, Christian Schoepplein wrote: Hi, I'm a blind computeruser who wants to use mutt. Most things are working very fine, I had only to change a view settings in the standardconfiguration to get mutt working with my special screenreading software (suse-blinux) and hardware devices (brailledisplay and speechsynt). But one thing is very uncomfortable... When reading a mail, there is no cursor inside mutt's internal pager which makes it unposible for my screenreading software to read the message with the normal keyboard by using the arrowkeys for example. I have to use the keys on my brailledisplay and thats really stressfull ;-). What I'm looking for is a posibility to get a cursor inside the pager which is positioned on the first letter of the line. When opening a message the cursor should be in teh first line of the mail and it would be cool to scroll to the next line (for example by pressing the arrow-down-key) and so on, till the last line of the messagetext. It would be great to be able navigating on every line of the message with the cursor, then it shuld be no problem reading a message with my screenreading software. As far as I know mutt doesn't have a solution for my problem, but maybe I'm wrong ??? Perhaps anyone has a tip how I can solve the problem or maybe it is posible to ad a new feature to mutt, that brings a cursor in to the internal pager. well, a workaround might be instead of viewing messages with enter, view with 'e' - edit-message. that will open the message in your defined editor, and you can scroll through it there with the cursor... when done, just quit your editor without saving, and you're back at the index. in my setup, the editor is set to : set editor=vim -u ~/.mutt/vimrc -c ':0;/^$' so that it automagically starts after the headers :) HTH! -- Dan Boger Linux MVP brainbench.com msg20758/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mutt for blind computerusers
You can use an external pager with mutt. This would at least be a good interim solution. set pager=view or something. -Daniel On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 08:26:35PM +0100, Christian Schoepplein [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi, I'm a blind computeruser who wants to use mutt. Most things are working very fine, I had only to change a view settings in the standardconfiguration to get mutt working with my special screenreading software (suse-blinux) and hardware devices (brailledisplay and speechsynt). But one thing is very uncomfortable... When reading a mail, there is no cursor inside mutt's internal pager which makes it unposible for my screenreading software to read the message with the normal keyboard by using the arrowkeys for example. I have to use the keys on my brailledisplay and thats really stressfull ;-). What I'm looking for is a posibility to get a cursor inside the pager which is positioned on the first letter of the line. When opening a message the cursor should be in teh first line of the mail and it would be cool to scroll to the next line (for example by pressing the arrow-down-key) and so on, till the last line of the messagetext. It would be great to be able navigating on every line of the message with the cursor, then it shuld be no problem reading a message with my screenreading software. As far as I know mutt doesn't have a solution for my problem, but maybe I'm wrong ??? Perhaps anyone has a tip how I can solve the problem or maybe it is posible to ad a new feature to mutt, that brings a cursor in to the internal pager. Thanks in advance, Schoeppi -- Christian Schoepplein| http://www.lily-rockt.de [EMAIL PROTECTED]| http://www.lavish.de -- Daniel E. Eisenbud [EMAIL PROTECTED] We should go forth on the shortest walk perchance, in the spirit of undying adventure, never to return,--prepared to send back our embalmed hearts only as relics to our desolate kingdoms. --Henry David Thoreau, Walking
Re: mutt for blind computerusers
On Wed, Nov 28, 2001 at 02:32:39PM -0500, Dan Boger [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: well, a workaround might be instead of viewing messages with enter, view with 'e' - edit-message. that will open the message in your defined editor, and you can scroll through it there with the cursor... when done, just quit your editor without saving, and you're back at the index. Setting the pager to an editor (preferably started with a readonly flag) would be a lot less error-prone. -Daniel -- Daniel E. Eisenbud [EMAIL PROTECTED] We should go forth on the shortest walk perchance, in the spirit of undying adventure, never to return,--prepared to send back our embalmed hearts only as relics to our desolate kingdoms. --Henry David Thoreau, Walking
