Re: mutt is not for everyone
Michael Maibaum wrote: I'd be willing to help with this, assuming it was perl rather than shell, I can't claim to be a huge expert but this should be fairly straightforward (famous last words). well my feeling is that it would be better to use perl (even though i'm not myself a great perl expert). i would be happy to help with testing, ideas, some programming, and i could probably setup cvs / server space for the project if necessary. i could setup a mailing list for it pretty easily as well if needed. david champion wrote me off list and suggested an idea that is similar to something i was thinking about; he suggested writing it in a modular way so that people could contribute modules (ie he could contribute an elm module, someone else could contribute a pine module)... obviously there'd have to be some provision for working out possible conflicts between modules, but i think this would be a good approach. the modules could maybe be template based (ie no actual code... just text that's easily parsable by the script), which would make it easy for people to contribute to / make improvements. -- Will Yardley william newdream . net
Mutt configuration tool, was: mutt is not for everyone
On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 22:16:24 at 10:16:24PM -0800, Will Yardley wrote: i was thinking about this in the car tonight, and i realized that (AFAIK) there isn't a simple interactive command line program to help new users adjust to / configure mutt. such a program could easily be written as a shell script or a perl script... and could be included in the mutt distribution, or in the contrib/ directory. basically, the tool would be oriented towards helping people set suitable defaults, and creating a decent .muttrc. while the mutt defaults are (in general) very sensibly chosen, it's often hard for new users to figure out what parameter they must change to have the desired effect. Hello, two comments on this: 1) something like this already exists online, why don't point it as the first thing from the Mutt web site, and maybe work to improve that? (sorry, can't find the URL) 2) I volunteer to test/help with whatever tool will be written to solve this. It is exactly something which would be great in RULE (see URL below) I know Perl quite well, but am really overloaded these days with that and other projects. I can still test it hard, debug and submit patches. PLEASE keep me posted. Ciao, Marco Fioretti Run Up2date Linux Everywhere: http://www.freesoftware.fsf.org/rule/ -- Never let your sense of morals prevent you from doing what is right Salvor Hardin , Foundation
Re: Mutt configuration tool, was: mutt is not for everyone
On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 10:11:19AM +0100, Marco Fioretti wrote: 1) something like this already exists online, why don't point it as the first thing from the Mutt web site, and maybe work to improve that? (sorry, can't find the URL) perhaps you mean: http://mutt.netliberte.org without it, i wasn't able to create a useful config for mutt, when i was a beginner. -- Stefan Antoni msg25122/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mutt is not for everyone
Sven Guckes wrote: mutt does not strive to be popular with everyone. after all, all those bad mailers were written to *fit* some people - and they certainly do! so dont take them away from those - they deserve it! i think this statement is a bit elitist simply because a tool is powerful doesn't mean that it can't also be fairly easy to use. it can be overwhelming to be faced with all that power at once; however that doesn't mean that the tool isn't still worth using. for instance, mutt might be far superior to pine, but there are still a lot of pine users out there, simply because pine is much easier to use initially. i was thinking about this in the car tonight, and i realized that (AFAIK) there isn't a simple interactive command line program to help new users adjust to / configure mutt. such a program could easily be written as a shell script or a perl script... and could be included in the mutt distribution, or in the contrib/ directory. basically, the tool would be oriented towards helping people set suitable defaults, and creating a decent .muttrc. while the mutt defaults are (in general) very sensibly chosen, it's often hard for new users to figure out what parameter they must change to have the desired effect. common stuff like set move=no, set mbox_type=Maildir, etc. could be included here, with a brief explanation of the choices. it could also ask if the user is used to other programs (ie pine) and offer to make the keybindings more familiar. it might also look at environment variables and the answers to previous questions in order to give sensible default choices (ie if $MAIL is set to /var/mail/william, that's probably a good choice for 'mbox'; if ~~/mail exists but ~/Mail doesn't, setting folder to ~/mail is probably a good idea; if $EDITOR or $VISUAL is set to nano, then perhaps 'nano -t' would be the default selection offered for 'editor'). lastly, the program could explain a few things (commonly asked questions, for example) so that they're less likely to be asked on the list. if the program came out well enough, perhaps mutt could even ask if you want to run it if ~/.muttrc or ~/.mutt/muttrc don't exist. in any event, i'd be happy to help if anyone wants to work on this (if it's in perl, my ability to help will be limited). -- Will Yardley william newdream . net
Re: mutt is not for everyone
At 1:15 AM EST on March 7 Will Yardley sent off:
Sven Guckes wrote:
mutt does not strive to be popular with everyone. after all, all
those bad mailers were written to *fit* some people - and they
certainly do! so dont take them away from those - they deserve it!
i think this statement is a bit elitist simply because a tool is
powerful doesn't mean that it can't also be fairly easy to use. it can
be overwhelming to be faced with all that power at once; however that
doesn't mean that the tool isn't still worth using.
Whether or not any of us are elitist, don't we all encounter times when *we're*
frustrated by the problems with the other person's MUA? PGP/GPG is the biggest
one, I think. If everyone else used mutt, the problem *might* go away. OK,
I'm being optimistic, but I don't see any point in complaining about lack of
PGP/MIME, or full quoting under the reply, or persistent HTML mails, and then
not encouraging the perpetrators to use something better.
i was thinking about this in the car tonight, and i realized that
(AFAIK) there isn't a simple interactive command line program to help
new users adjust to / configure mutt.
such a program could easily be written as a shell script or a perl
script... and could be included in the mutt distribution, or in the
contrib/ directory.
I vote for python, simply because perl can get unreadable. It may not matter
since I doubt anything too complicated is necessary.
it could also ask if the user is used to other programs (ie pine) and
offer to make the keybindings more familiar.
or emacs/the eVIl one. On the other hand, there's a case for not letting
newbies switch mass keybindings around. As it is, I've seen some
misunderstandings on this list along the lines of
Q How do I do X?
A Press Ctrl-h.
Q But that does Y!
(where Y could be rm -f * or launch_nuclear_missiles, available from an
obscure patch.)
A It works for me!
Q But not for me!
B One of you is using nonstandard keybindings, and forgot.
Q Oh yeah.
I think it's better to make newbies switch keybindings one at a time, and to
make them do the work themselves so that they're aware of the consequences.
it might also look at environment variables and the answers to previous
questions in order to give sensible default choices (ie if $MAIL is set
to /var/mail/william, that's probably a good choice for 'mbox'; if
~~/mail exists but ~/Mail doesn't, setting folder to ~/mail is probably a
good idea;
This is really important. It could also look in ~/.procmailrc for all 2
netscape/pine users that use procmail ;-). Maybe /etc/sendmail.cf could be
parsed to find out where it puts mail for ${USER}?
if $EDITOR or $VISUAL is set to nano, then perhaps 'nano -t'
would be the default selection offered for 'editor').
Why not just $VISUAL if running-X, else $EDITOR?
--
* THREENYM: Referring to someone by the first letter of their three names.
Used by some people (RMS and ESR), but not others (has anybody ever
tried to refer to Linus Torvalds as LBT?). - fortune
Robert I. Reid [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://astro.utoronto.ca/~reid/
PGP Key: http://astro.utoronto.ca/~reid/pgp.html
Re: mutt is not for everyone
Hi, all -- ...and then Will Yardley said... % ... % i was thinking about this in the car tonight, and i realized that % (AFAIK) there isn't a simple interactive command line program to help % new users adjust to / configure mutt. % % such a program could easily be written as a shell script or a perl % script... and could be included in the mutt distribution, or in the % contrib/ directory. Not to rain on the parade, particularly since netliberte has been mentioned, but isn't there also a dotfiles generator for mutt as well? That said, I think that mutt-newbie would be a great place to include this; most folks will probably soon outgrow the capabilities of the tool (and we probably *want* it that way because we don't want to have to write a config script that's bigger than all of the mutt source put together!) and take on their config files themselves. It's a neat idea and I'd love to see it. Then, again, I'd love to visit netliberte and the dotfiles generator more often, too :-) :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg25151/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mutt is not for everyone
On 07-Mar-02 at 12:21, David T-G's inspired musing was thus : Not to rain on the parade, particularly since netliberte has been mentioned, but isn't there also a dotfiles generator for mutt as well? Is dotfiles a generic generator with templates for different apps? Point me to the URL :-) -- |-Simon White # GIMPS current unit progress: 30.24% #-| |-Internet Services Manager # http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm #-| |-MTDS S.A. 14, rue 16 novembre:-Pd-; tel: +212.3.737.4861-| |-Rabat, Kingdom of Morocco Cyberneckin' fax: +212.3.737.4863-|
Re: mutt is not for everyone
Simon, et al -- ...and then Simon White said... % % On 07-Mar-02 at 12:21, David T-G's inspired musing was thus : % Not to rain on the parade, particularly since netliberte has been % mentioned, but isn't there also a dotfiles generator for mutt as well? % % Is dotfiles a generic generator with templates for different apps? Point me to % the URL :-) That's my recollection, but I don't have the URL to give you. You go to the website, IIRC, click on your app, put in some options, and get a config file out. Not unlike netliberte, I suppose, but I know that dotfiles (or dotfile) and generator were in the name. Happy Hunting or TIA to whoever posts it. % % -- % |-Simon White # GIMPS current unit progress: 30.24% #-| % |-Internet Services Manager # http://www.mersenne.org/prime.htm #-| % |-MTDS S.A. 14, rue 16 novembre:-Pd-; tel: +212.3.737.4861-| % |-Rabat, Kingdom of Morocco Cyberneckin' fax: +212.3.737.4863-| HTH HAND :-D -- David T-G * It's easier to fight for one's principles (play) [EMAIL PROTECTED] * than to live up to them. -- fortune cookie (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.justpickone.org/davidtg/Shpx gur Pbzzhavpngvbaf Qrprapl Npg! msg25154/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mutt is not for everyone
On Thu, Mar 07, 2002 at 12:38:35PM -0500, David T-G wrote: That's my recollection, but I don't have the URL to give you. You go to the website, IIRC, click on your app, put in some options, and get a config file out. Not unlike netliberte, I suppose, but I know that dotfiles (or dotfile) and generator were in the name. IIRC, it's actually an app, not a cgi... here's the homepage, thanks to freshmeat :) http://www.blackie.dk/dotfile/ -- Dan Boger [EMAIL PROTECTED] msg25155/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mutt is not for everyone
On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:16:24PM -0800, Will Yardley [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sven Guckes wrote: mutt does not strive to be popular with everyone. after all, all those bad mailers were written to *fit* some people - and they certainly do! so dont take them away from those - they deserve it! i think this statement is a bit elitist simply because a tool is powerful doesn't mean that it can't also be fairly easy to use. it can be overwhelming to be faced with all that power at once; however that doesn't mean that the tool isn't still worth using. FWIW, this was the historical attitude of the mutt developers. I've been around since about version 0.12, with a very long hiatus somewhere in the middle there. Sven was also around for much of that time. The thought was mutt is small and fast and powerful, and is for hackers. Not all of its features are easy to use, and we don't care. We're not going to let it get bloated. So Sven isn't just making this up. On the other hand, that was many moons ago, and despite accumulating some bloat and not being as small, mutt is just about as fast and as useful for the people who liked it back then, while perhaps (I'm not sure about this part) being easier to use for a broader audience. The danger of making it somewhat easier to use for a broader audience is that they'll want to then go farther, eroding its utility to this original group of users. But I don't think that this is a big danger (especially if the developers, some of whom are from the original group and many of the rest of whom would have fit right in there, put their collective foot down in such situations.) So I say go ahead and write a configuration tool, if it makes you happy, and share it with the world, if it makes other people's lives easier. At the same time, the core of mutt will never have a bunch of dialog boxes when you first start it up asking you helpful questions to set it up (though someone could write a script that did so and that would be fine) and there will probably always be users who'd be happier with Evolution or Mozilla pine or Eudora or (gasp!) Outlook or AOL. Mutt can be for a lot of people without any problem, but no, it's probably not for everybody. -Daniel -- Daniel E. Eisenbud [EMAIL PROTECTED] We should go forth on the shortest walk perchance, in the spirit of undying adventure, never to return,--prepared to send back our embalmed hearts only as relics to our desolate kingdoms. --Henry David Thoreau, Walking
Re: mutt is not for everyone
IIRC, it's actually an app, not a cgi... here's the homepage, thanks to freshmeat :) http://www.blackie.dk/dotfile/ Yep, but on that site I don't see support for mutt... seems to have good procmail support though. However, here :- http://www.dotfiles.com/index.php3?cat_id=12 There are a number of sample dotfiles, but no generator. I think, therefore, that a commandline dotfile generator may not be redundant, unless anyone can dig up something else Simon. -- Signature pending
Mutt is not for everyone? (really)
Hello Guys! I don't think like you Sven :) - Mutt is for everyone! All is for everyone! Mutt isn't hard, or at less, Mutt isn't very hard :-) If I can read, write, filter, store, and do all what I do with mutt, with another program running under X-window, certaintly I will use this program (I don't use because none are able to work like mutt in my weak computer...) It depends on the need of person :-) -- Michel Thadeu Sabchuk - Sorry about my poor english :)
Re: mutt is not for everyone
Sven Guckes wrote: mutt does not strive to be popular with everyone. after all, all those bad mailers were written to *fit* some people - and they certainly do! so dont take them away from those - they deserve it! i think this statement is a bit elitist simply because a tool is powerful doesn't mean that it can't also be fairly easy to use. it can be overwhelming to be faced with all that power at once; however that doesn't mean that the tool isn't still worth using. for instance, mutt might be far superior to pine, but there are still a lot of pine users out there, simply because pine is much easier to use initially. i was thinking about this in the car tonight, and i realized that (AFAIK) there isn't a simple interactive command line program to help new users adjust to / configure mutt. such a program could easily be written as a shell script or a perl script... and could be included in the mutt distribution, or in the contrib/ directory. basically, the tool would be oriented towards helping people set suitable defaults, and creating a decent .muttrc. while the mutt defaults are (in general) very sensibly chosen, it's often hard for new users to figure out what parameter they must change to have the desired effect. common stuff like set move=no, set mbox_type=Maildir, etc. could be included here, with a brief explanation of the choices. it could also ask if the user is used to other programs (ie pine) and offer to make the keybindings more familiar. it might also look at environment variables and the answers to previous questions in order to give sensible default choices (ie if $MAIL is set to /var/mail/william, that's probably a good choice for 'mbox'; if ~/mail exists but ~/Mail doesn't, setting folder to ~/mail is probably a good idea; if $EDITOR or $VISUAL is set to nano, then perhaps 'nano -t' would be the default selection offered for 'editor'). lastly, the program could explain a few things (commonly asked questions, for example) so that they're less likely to be asked on the list. if the program came out well enough, perhaps mutt could even ask if you want to run it if ~/.muttrc or ~/.mutt/muttrc don't exist. in any event, i'd be happy to help if anyone wants to work on this (if it's in perl, my ability to help will be limited). -- Will Yardley william newdream . net
Re: mutt is not for everyone
On Wed, Mar 06, 2002 at 10:16:24PM -0800, Will Yardley wrote: Sven Guckes wrote: mutt does not strive to be popular with everyone. after all, all those bad mailers were written to *fit* some people - and they certainly do! so dont take them away from those - they deserve it! i was thinking about this in the car tonight, and i realized that (AFAIK) there isn't a simple interactive command line program to help new users adjust to / configure mutt. such a program could easily be written as a shell script or a perl script... and could be included in the mutt distribution, or in the contrib/ directory. I'd be willing to help with this, assuming it was perl rather than shell, I can't claim to be a huge expert but this should be fairly straightforward (famous last words). Michael -- Dr Michael A. Maibaum - (W)+1 (415) 561 1682 - (H)+1 (415) 626 6733 [EMAIL PROTECTED] URL:http://www.gene-hacker.net/ msg25118/pgp0.pgp Description: PGP signature
Re: mutt is not for everyone
* Will Yardley [EMAIL PROTECTED] [020301 09:20]: i love mutt, and wouldn't switch for the world, but i don't think that it's the mail client for everyone. i'd even be hesitant to recommend it to many of my (fairly computer-literate as a rule) co-workers. that's fine. dont give mutt to people who are not able to configure it. if they cannot be bothere by an editor inteface for configuration and if they wont ever learn the concept of regular expressions - forget it! give GUI mailer to those who would rather click on a menu than going through a list of commands and reading the manual to understand them. and dont waste your time on explaining threading to those who quote in full and reply to all. DONT! i do think that if the mutt developers and the mutt user community want to make mutt a more popular choice, that there should be more effort put into making mutt usable without so much configuration. mutt does not strive to be popular with everyone. after all, all those bad mailers were written to *fit* some people - and they certainly do! so dont take them away from those - they deserve it! Sven -- Everybody uses the editor/mailer/program/OS that he deserves.
