[NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle
Yes! >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb >Sent: Thursday, November 17, 2011 9:41 PM >To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site >Subject: [NSP] Re: flat chanter in the middle > > > Hello Kevin and all > > I noticed this in Kevin's email: > > ...so i closed the G hole with glue at one side until it >was in tune. > I'm wondering why you put the glue at one side rather than the top? > Putting glue at the side will flatten the note by making the hole > smaller but this would need more glue than putting it at >the top of the > hole which flattens it by a) slightly moving the hole down and b) > making the hole smaller. This double whammy effect means less glue > needed and (more often than not) bright tone preserved. > Cheers > Anthony > > -- > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: (no subject)
> the >streaming eyes and waterfall nose generated by the Northumbrian >grassland on that day entirely surpassed all my previous experience. > Horrible isn't it? and it's not just (Northumbrian) grassland. I used to suffer from dustmites all year round until a suitable treatment was found. Enough indeed. Csírz (egészségedre!) To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Sad news for singing and piping
Very sad indeed. I only met Ray once, way back in the mid-60s when she took me aside at the Sidmouth festival and made some very kind remarks about my singing. I got the impression that she was as charming as she was talented. My condolences to Colin and all who knew her. C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of cwhill >Sent: Friday, September 02, 2011 2:35 AM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Re: Sad news for singing and piping > >Very, very sad to hear this news. >Ray was the person I contacted first regarding getting a set of pipes >way back in the early 70's (from the address on the rear of the Wild >Hills LP) and she was so kind and patient with me asking so >many stupid >questions (and put me in touch with Bill Hedworth which resulted in my >keyless and then 7 key set). >I met her the following November (?) in Newcastle at the AGM >and she was >most welcoming to me. It was then that I realised who she was >(Ray Fisher). >I won't contact Colin myself but I'm sure I join many on this list who >wish him our condolences in this tragic time. > >Colin Hill > > > >On 01/09/2011 20:56, Julia Say wrote: >> >> Those of you who knew Colin Ross' wife, Ray, and haven't so >far heard from other >> singing or social forums, will be saddened to learn of her >death yesterday. She had >> been ill for some time and finally succumbed to several conditions. >> >> Messages are flooding on to various lists and boards and >there is an obit on the >> Guardian website >> >http://www.guardian.co.uk/music/2011/sep/01/ray-fisher-obituary >?INTCMP=SRCH >> >> Colin is coping as well as can be expected and has family >with him, but as he is >> himself not totally well, please no phone calls to the >family home, they simply >> cannot deal with the volume of calls. >> >> Email messages will be received (though probably not >answered, again due to volume) >> and cards are fine. He is very grateful for the messages >received so far and the >> support and appreciation of the piping community. >> >> Ray was of course an internationally respected traditional >singer with an extensive >> family, and singing will play a large part in the farewell ceremony. >> >> It is at 2.15 pm on Monday 12 September at Whitley Bay. >Pipers have been requested: >> please email me for more details if you are likely to come, >so I know how big a >> turnout of players to expect. There is a social event >afterwards as well. >> >> Julia >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >> >> - >> No virus found in this message. >> Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >> Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3870 - Release >Date: 09/01/11 >> >> > > > >- >No virus found in this message. >Checked by AVG - www.avg.com >Version: 10.0.1392 / Virus Database: 1520/3870 - Release Date: 09/01/11 > > > > >
[NSP] Re: Tune of the Month, July, "Roxborough Castle"
>And a curious choice of drone, which on my headset seemed to be the >subdominant. Yes > I admire anyone, though, who can honestly say they've never >played too >fast when confronted with a recording device, and mangled good >intentions, when nervous adrenalin cripples technique though. >Or am I being too kind to him - is he just a man of tin ears indeed? >Richard. > Could have done another take? C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tune of the Month, July, "Roxborough Castle"
>Might be quite good if he played it at half the speed. And got his chanter remotely in tune. >Otherwise agree with >Francis. Me too. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Was Mr. Fenwick right?
>Tom Clough wrote that notes should be played their >full length, but clearly separated, and Fenwick is consistent >with this. And they were both consistent with this: >notes >last *almost* until the next one starts. This is what I meant by "a fresh start to each note but not necessarily a clearly audible silence" since if there is a clearly audible silence either the note is not being played its full length or the next note will be late. FWIW C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
>If Beethoven were alive >today and could hear (:)), would he have recognised his >compositions as >played I'm very sure he would have recognised the pieces but he might have thought people had a very funny way of playing them. Though I did once hear a recording of piece by Palestrina that I had actually sung myself and failed to recognise it. This was the choir of the Sistine Chapel around 1935 with masses of vibrato, poor tuning in general and rubato all over the shop. I also once heard a local choir singing three pieces - one by Haydn, one by Bruckner and one by Britten, and I couldn't tell which was which. And I once failed to recognise that a rock band had played Little Wing in one of their sets. But I don't think it's this kind of gross inaccuracy that we're talking about. CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
>Generally people in literate societies have far worse memories >than in societies with oral/aural cultures. > >Ask an ear player how many tunes he knows - it will be more >than I can remember where I kept the dots of Swings and roundabouts. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Thank you in turn, Philip. The ancient sagas are an interesting question. I don't know when or how the Iliad and the Odyssey came to be fixed in their present form, but I do know that the Kalevala was a compilation from a variety of sources made only in the 19th century. >A sobering thought for some of us who struggle to remember >tunes, and forget >people's names. Indeed! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Especially the "yes, of course". c >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood >Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:01 AM >To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) >Cc: NSPlist group >Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > > >On 22 Jun 2011, at 09:39, wrote: > >> What would you say was the opposite of "legato". > >Ooooh, I'm not going there!! > >Saying that something is _not_ the opposite of another is only >one assertion. >Saying what _is_ an opposite requires a number of bold and >foolhardy propositions which will keep this thread going for >several years >> >>> I take 'detached fingering' to mean >>> only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time. >> >> In other words you don't have to overdo it to "prove" that >you're piping properly? > >Well, I agree though that's not quite what I meant. More a >matter of simple technique indicated by the physical aspects >of a stopped chanter, rather than any question of taste. > >> Would you make the odd exception for vibrato and the >occasional mordent, acciaccatura or "cut" (in the UP sense) >and such like? > >Oh yes, of course. > >Francis > >> > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
I think I'd go along with all of this. C >-Original Message- >From: Francis Wood [mailto:oatenp...@googlemail.com] >Sent: Wednesday, June 22, 2011 11:01 AM >To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) >Cc: NSPlist group >Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > > >On 22 Jun 2011, at 09:39, wrote: > >> What would you say was the opposite of "legato". > >Ooooh, I'm not going there!! > >Saying that something is _not_ the opposite of another is only >one assertion. >Saying what _is_ an opposite requires a number of bold and >foolhardy propositions which will keep this thread going for >several years >> >>> I take 'detached fingering' to mean >>> only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time. >> >> In other words you don't have to overdo it to "prove" that >you're piping properly? > >Well, I agree though that's not quite what I meant. More a >matter of simple technique indicated by the physical aspects >of a stopped chanter, rather than any question of taste. > >> Would you make the odd exception for vibrato and the >occasional mordent, acciaccatura or "cut" (in the UP sense) >and such like? > >Oh yes, of course. > >Francis > >> > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
>'Detached' is not an equivalent, though. I'll play a slow air, >or everything else for that manner with 'detached fingering' >because that's how a stopped chanter works. And it's not the >opposite of 'legato'! I take 'detached fingering' to mean >only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time, >with either an infinitesimal or a more pronounced gap between >notes. Once it is more noticeable, then it's staccato. >'Meggy's Foot' to take an extreme example and 'Lads of >Alnwick' less so. 'Rothbury Hills' or whatever, hardly at all. With this interpretation, "detached" in the case of Rothbury Hills is getting very close to the "détaché" of the classical string player. What would you say was the opposite of "legato". >I take 'detached fingering' to mean >only that and nothing more. Only one finger off at any time. In other words you don't have to overdo it to "prove" that you're piping properly? Would you make the odd exception for vibrato and the occasional mordent, acciaccatura or "cut" (in the UP sense) and such like? C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Indeed the markings in classical music are prescriptive, but the further back one goes, the fewer markings one finds. The classical world has its own oral or aural tradition. The much-maligned (in some circles) reliance on the dots was simply because new repertoire was expected exceedingly often (hence Bach's "300 odd cantatas (sic)", rehearsal time was minimal, recording had not been invented until around the beginning of the 20th century so lots of fine music would have been lost if musicians had relied on memory, and possibly last but by no means least, because the scale and complexity of the music was often so much greater than with traditional music. (This is not a value judgment, but could you really imagine Beethoven (already deaf) teaching an orchestra, chorus and soloists the entire 9th symphony by ear, expecting them to perform it from memory, and then expecting people not to have forgotten it a few hundred years later? This would be a collective feat of memory far beyond what is required to memorise even the longest and most sophisticated of variation sets for the pipes.) I repeat: this is not a value judgment. I'm just explaining to the "the-buggers-couldn't-do-it-if-it-wasn't-written-down" camp that use of the dots in classical music has always been pure pragmatism. Memorising a short but exquisite poem is one thing, memorising, say, War and Peace or the telephone directory is another. Btw, conservatoires and music colleges always insist that students play their examination pieces by heart, and it is very unusual to see a concerto soloist with the dots in front of him/her, dammit, them (though I did once see Perlmann play the Elgar with the dots). >PS my spellchecker offered as alternatives to 'stratocaster': >'toastmaster' or castrated. Ah! the wonders of a digital age. > Love it. Word's spellchequer used to suggest "fellated" for "filleted". Is that dubious enough, Richard? Happy daze, C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
And no one threw any tantra C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood >Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:17 PM >To: julia@nspipes.co.uk >Cc: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site >Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > >Hello Julia and others, > >I like this reply very much. This has been a good thread and a >great endorsement of the varied interests which emerge from >and return to the discussion of our favourite instrument. > >It's also a good demonstration of both the value and the >disadvantages of this list medium. The disadvantages are >obvious. Searching for topics in the list archives would be >unsuccessful in the present instance since the header is >'Deaf/Dead' . . the discussion has now migrated far from that >original idea. For sequence of topics and responses the Forum >medium is far superior. > >On the other hand, the present list facility is excellent for >immediate conversational responses. And I must say, I >thoroughly enjoy the odd and interesting mutations that emerge >in these discussions! > >Francis > > >On 21 Jun 2011, at 10:05, Julia Say wrote: > >> On 20 Jun 2011, Gibbons, John wrote: >> >>> "stacc. abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: >detached, separated) >>> staccare(Italian) to detach, to separate each note" >>> The word has its natural meaning, in other words. >> >>> Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! >> >> I believe I read (probably in the online dolmetsch.com music >theory site since >> that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music >terms these days, a note >> with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is >printed, (so a crotchet >> becomes a quaver, for instance), whilst staccatissimo means >the note should be >> played one quarter of the written value. >> >> I have more than a suspicion that the precise meaning of >these terms varies from >> instrument to instrument (different characteristics and all >that) as well as >> through historical and musical time. >> >> Maybe an exploration of the relevance and meaning of such >terms for the nsp is >> worthwhile. Tenuto also appears to mean separated, but only >by a hair's breadth, >> which I think we should appropriate, as it describes exactly >what we sometimes >> want. Reading (this time on Wikipedia) legato can be either >separated or joined >> (slurred legato?) depending on instrument and context. What >/ which do we (nsp-ers) >> mean by it? And under what circumstances? >> >> I once played classical flute - where staccato dots often >(but not always) meant >> tongueing, slurs meant no tongueing. And so on and so forth. >Each of us is coming >> to the nsp with a slightly different perspective and >experience and we have to bear >> this in mind in discussions >> >> We have staccatissimo marks in Peacock on Meggy's Foot - and >all seem agreed that >> this is a highly exaggerated staccato tune. >> >> So, in our case, staccatissimo could be said to be "as short >as you can possibly >> make it", whilst "staccato" is with the bounce that most >players seem to apply to >> (for example) the first of a pair of repeated notes. Not >something that's ever been >> pointed out to me formally but "most" players do it, almost >by instinct. Which >> makes it traditional in my book. >> >> If we can find a consensus on how these terms are / should >be used in nspiping, >> discussions might be a little less confrontational. >> >> Julia (who has been told off by both Chris O and I- Adrian >for playing "too >> staccato" - yees!) >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
I forgot to mention the stupid percussion, sorry ;-) c >-Original Message- >From: Francis Wood [mailto:oatenp...@googlemail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 11:53 AM >To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) >Cc: julia@nspipes.co.uk; barr...@nspipes.co.uk; >j.gibb...@imperial.ac.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > > >On 21 Jun 2011, at 10:38, wrote: > >> now that I'm emerging from the doldrums > >Doldra, surely? > >Francis > > To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
>that's what I tend to use) that in classical / art music terms >these days, a note >with a staccato dot should be played half length of what is >printed, (so a crotchet >becomes a quaver, for instance), This is the convention I'm familiar with too. I find a useful practise technique for NSP, now that I'm emerging from the doldrums (= renewed obsession with fiddle/violin/viola/viols there are not enough hours in the day) and learning the Jacky Layton variations, is to set the metronome to the semiquaver (very slowly for the time being) and play the semis as demis, the quavers as semis, dotted quavers as quavers and crotchets as dotted quavers. Strict discipline, folks. Do you think Inky and the Big O would approve? Csírz PS détaché doesn't meant the same thing. To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Nicely put, and succinctly to boot! C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Gibbons, John >Sent: Tuesday, June 21, 2011 12:38 AM >To: barr...@nspipes.co.uk >Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > >Barry, >"stacc.abbreviated form of staccato (Italian: >detached, separated) >staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note" >The word has its natural meaning, in other words. >Stacatissimo is what some people think it means, but it doesn't! > >John > > >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] on >behalf of barr...@nspipes.co.uk [barr...@nspipes.co.uk] >Sent: 20 June 2011 17:53 >To: christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu >Cc: rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > >Quoting christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu: > >> < OK, I shouldn't have called it staccato, >> >> >> >>Unfortunately some people do seem to think staccato means "short". >> > >Chris, > >May I point you to the Dolmetsch dictionary > >http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss4.htm > >Personally, staccato is a word I use for musical effects and never for >a piping style. I think it merely confuses matters. > >Barry > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Oops, outlook tells me I've already sent a reply. I wonder what it said... Barry, et al. >May I point you to the Dolmetsch dictionary > >http://www.dolmetsch.com/defss4.htm > Thanks, this is very interesting but unfortunately reminds me that dictionaries are not infallible. (I have been working as a professional translator since 1974). And indeed that musicians and lexicographers cannot always agree on the precise meaning of the terminology they use. For example, here: http://www.winterkonzerte.de/fachbegriffe.html I found: "spiccato: Deutlich, abgesetzt, mit gestoßenen Noten (Bogentechnik bei Streichinstrumenten). staccato: Gestoßen, kurz, abgehackt. Gegensatz:-> legato" The terminology here is very vague, and doesn't explain the fundamental difference between staccato and spiccato, i.e. that staccato stays on the string and spiccato bounces. This is further confused by the fact that French-speakers tend to call any bouncing stroke "sautillé" even though this term more strictly applies to the rapid bouncing of the wood of the bow unassisted, as it were, and is related to tremolo. "sautillé" works well on fast semiquavers, spiccato can be used on relatively slow notes. It is performed with the upper arm and the bow reaches and leaves the string like an aircraft landing and immediatly taking off again or like a stone skimmed across water. Back to Dolmetsch: it does give "staccare (Italian) to detach, to separate each note" as the basic meaning. Then things get complicated. For example, I can assure you that détaché means what I described in my previous posting, as also found here: http://www.violinonline.com/bowstrokes.htm "Détaché indicates smooth, separate bow strokes should be used for each note (it does not mean detached or disconnected). Notes are of equal value, and are produced with an even, seamless stroke with no variation in pressure." Not because I necessarily trust this source (for example, it makes martelé and staccato sound like the same thing) but having been trained in Luxembourg (where the system and terminology are very much based on the French model) and Liège - and sometimes by French-speaking teachers - this is what I have learnt that the expressions mean. Back to Dolmetsch again: it implies that staccato is the same thing as gestoßen (German), détaché (French), piqué (French). Gestoßen certainly means détaché but piqué doesn't; it means something more like staccatissimo. So I wouldn't rely too much on dictionaries (for example, what is the relevance of the reference to Monteverdi's use of pizzicato in this context?) >Personally, staccato is a word I use for musical effects and >never for >a piping style. I think it merely confuses matters. Quite rightly. But it does have a technical meaning for string players. Sorry if I sound like a know-all, but the above is merely a distillation of what I have gathered over several decades to be the consensus among practising string players as opposed to lexicographers and musicologists and is offered FWIW. Best, Chris (wer übt, hat's nötig) Birch To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
< OK, I shouldn't have called it staccato, Unfortunately some people do seem to think staccato means "short". C -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
> using > all the vocabulary an instrument can offer rather than cutting a bit > out because it's heretical. Yes!!! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
>Joe Hutton seemed a bit lukewarm about that. Joe didn't exactly play ultrastaccato, did he? C I'd forgotten that remark about the skeletons. Thanks for reminding! To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
>However, I think we differ over the harpsichord's ability to >play 'long-sustained'. I was having this discussion with my wife the other day (she plays keyboards rather better than I can), so I went to the harpsichord and tried it to check. Just like on a piano, if you hold a key down, the damper remains out of contact with the string, which sustains longer than it would if you released the key immediately. Not as long as on the piano of course, but there's a difference between staccatissimo and simple separation. Maybe the term should be "short-sustained". As regards "detached" fingering, it's interesting that the term "détaché" when applied to bowing of a string instrument does not imply a silence between the notes. It merely means that you change bow direction for each note, making a fresh start, rather than slurring two or more together. The on-the-string bowing with a silence between notes is called "martelé". "Staccato" means separating notes with a silence while staying on the string but not changing the direction of the bow. Then of course there's all the off-the-string stuff. "Staccato" in Italian means "separated". It does not mean "short". Playing NSP with a fresh start to each note but not necessarily a clearly audible silence can sound very pleasant, at least to my ears, and of course you need to be able to do the staccatissimo in the first place to do it reliably because the timing has to be phenomenally precise. The "look mummy, no legato" (or dripping tap) way of playing just sounds like a technical exercise. To do a good détaché it helps to have a good martelé to begin with. I would argue that the martelé was the "basic stroke" just like the staccato is the basic way of playing NSP. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: arrogant
Hear hear, and "position" has only one "s". Adrian of all people talking about bad spelling! You couldn't make it up. C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say >Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 3:13 PM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Inky- Adrian >Subject: [NSP] Re: arrogant > >Adrian - if you wish to insult people, please do so offlist. > >The rest of us (I hope I can safely generalise here) find it >embarrassing. > >Anyone who wishes to contact me, please do so offlist for a while. > >Julia > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
Quite, again! C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York >Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 2:51 PM >To: Francis Wood; NSP group >Subject: [NSP] Re: Deaf/dead > >Hello Francis, > >Quite so, but, playing devil's advocate for a minute, (and loving >tradition except where it becomes tribal), does the fact that we can >play staccato and 99% of other pipes can't, mean it's all we should do? >The harpsichord, after all, could only really play staccato or >slightly >sustained, and then the piano came in and could play long >sustained, but >it doesn't mean we don't still use staccato as part of the >vocabulary on >the piano. >I'm not doubting the value of detached playing at all, it >really is the >best thing most of the time, but just wanting the occasional extra bit >of vocabulary. And as a matter of taste more than a tiny bit of smooth >really doesn't suit the nsp's to my mind, but like some spices, the >occasional addition can go a long way. >I speak more as a listener than claiming great expertise in >playing here. > >Best wishes, >Richard. > >PS should the "proper" piping movement consider calling itself the >"Real" piping movement? > >> Hi Colin and others, >> >> The closed-fingering technique derives much more from the >nature of the instrument rather than any opinions about style. >> >> Since the NSP chanter has a stopped end, there would be >little point in adopting anything other than this fingering >style, which allows separate notes with (usually) a >distinguishable silence between each. This is something that >no other bagpipe can do. In fact it would be difficult to >think of another wind instrument capable of silence whilst >pressure is applied. At present I can only identify the ocarina. >> >> The limits of any bag-blown chanter/ oboe are obvious. >Almost no opportunity for dynamics, and very little for >on-the-go tuning. The scale of the primitive NSP chanter is >confined to eight notes. This is clearly a chicken& egg >situation - the construction and the style of playing of >instruments are closely related, and neither predates the >other. What commonly happens with almost any musical >instrument is that its limitations are adopted into the >playing style as highly identifiable and positive features. >> >> Hence, closed fingering. Operated by open minds. >> >> Francis >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> >> >--- > >> Text inserted by Panda IS 2011: >> >> This message has NOT been classified as spam. If it is >unsolicited mail (spam), click on the following link to >reclassify it: >http://localhost:6083/Panda?ID=pav_9926&SPAM=true&path=C:\Docum >ents%20and%20Settings\Richard\Local%20Settings\Application%20Da >ta\Panda%20Security\Panda%20Internet%20Security%202011\AntiSpam >> >--- > >> >> > > > >
[NSP] Re: Tradition
Quite! C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dru Brooke-Taylor >Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 2:07 PM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Tradition > >Has it occurred to anyone that once a tradition has started to >get self >conscious about it's identity, it's got problems? A tradition that is >still fully living as a tradition, is just 'how things are', without >needing to ask itself what is traditional and what isn't. It even >decides what it doesn't like, or rejects, just on the basis that 'we >don't like that' or 'other people may, but we don't do it that way'. > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Deaf/dead
This is something that no other bagpipe >can do. In fact it would be difficult to think of another wind >instrument capable of silence whilst pressure is applied. At >present I can only identify the ocarina. Uilleann pipes, chanter stopped on knee, all fingers down? CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Deaf/dead
>if he were to hear them played now. > >Well that's because he was deaf... > In that case he wouldn't hear them at all, but I reckon being dead is an even greater impediment to hearing them played now. He's been decomposing ever since according to a very old joke. Praps that could explain it. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The Dartmouth Competitions
Bugger! Dartmouth doesn't like rich text. Here's a "proper" e-mail: __ From: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 10:15 AM To: 'Dave S'; Inky- Adrian Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject:RE: [NSP] Re: The Dartmouth Competitions Please define "can" ;-) >This CAN of worms just lost it's lid > > >> Anthony, CAN you play the NSPs? >> -- Plus ça reste la même chose ….. Csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The Dartmouth Competitions
RE: [NSP] Re: The Dartmouth Competitions Please define "can" ;-) >This can of worms just lost it's lid > > >> Anthony, can you play the NSPs? >> -- Plus ça reste la même chose â¦.. CsÃrz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: The Dartmouth Competitions
Well said, Anthony! The fact that you can play should be obvious to anyone who doesn't have their ego where their ears should be. C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb >Sent: Friday, June 17, 2011 9:00 AM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; Inky- Adrian >Subject: [NSP] Re: The Dartmouth Competitions > > > --- On Fri, 17/6/11, Inky- Adrian wrote: > Anthony, can you play the NSPs? > Hello Adrian > It all comes down to what is meant by 'play'. > Given the wonderful diversity of humanity there are some people who > will answer yes. > When I first moved north in 1977 and got 'in amang' what >Will Atkinson > called 'the real music' (that's where the last strong >traditional music > scene in England was still alive and kicking) I became immersed in a > living music that was still very popular and still being used in > communities for mutual entertainment as it had been for centuries. > It was a flourishing music scene with a very strong >identity but very > different from the scene in other parts of Northumberland. > This is what happens with traditional music, a fairly tightly > defined regional accent builds up and is passed on but is >continually > evolving thanks to the input of a community rather than a single > individual or family. > That there was a brilliant family Clough tradition is >beyond question. > That Billy Pigg studied that tradition with its recognised master is > also beyond doubt. Whether that narrow tradition held >enough emotional > appeal to speak to Billy and a whole community without exception is > a very good question to which my answer would be apparently not. > Your rather inflected description of Billy Pigg's playing displays a > very limited understanding of 'tradition' and the way it operates, > evolves and is propagated. > > Scholars who have studied this topic in depth say that traditional > music can be defined as evolving aEUR~through oral >transmission' with > three major facts shaping transmission: aEUR~continuity >linking present > to past'; aEUR~variation, from creative impulse of the individual or > group' and aEUR~selection by the community, determining >form/s in which > the music survives'. Writing in the Yearbook of the >International Folk > Music Council (Vol 7: pp 9-29) R P Elbourne clarified this further: > '..traditionality being concensus through time'. It is this >point which > you choose to ignore and that is your personal choice, but you go > further and insist that I ignore the very tradition that I >lived among > for 27 years and fall in with a much narrower one which does > not entirely butter my parsnip. > > By all means share your thoughts but please don't insist we limit > ourselves to your idiosyncratic definitions of 'tradition' >or for that > matter, Northumbrian. > > Anthony > > > -- > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Billy Pigg
>I'm risking a lot here I know but who actually decided how the pipes >should be played? Good question! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Trad.nsp vs Dartmouth
"a couple >of the best plpers are trying to make people understand how to >play their instrument properly." No prizes for identifying the following quote: "She is a very good teacher, demanding accurate staccato playing." C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: divorce
>-Original Message- >From: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) >Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:53 AM >To: 'Dave S' >Subject: RE: [NSP] divorce > >Well said, Dave! >C >>-Original Message- >>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Dave S >>Sent: Thursday, June 16, 2011 9:38 AM >>To: Dartmouth nsp list N.P.S. site >>Subject: [NSP] divorce >> >>Hi, >>It seems as though Inky has his wish. The tradition is now firmly no >>longer out in the open. >>This list served the purpose of introducing the beginner(shy >>fence-sitter to brash young expert) to light >>conversation/disagreement/proposition on all subjects around the >>wonderful instrument known as the NSP. It has done this well >>for a good >>number of years, but I believe the polarisation Inky wrongly >>thought was >>necessary to save his ideal methodology (rightly or wrongly) >>of the ONLY >>way to play NSP has wrought more damage than can now be imagined. >>I would liken it to attempting to harmonize the accents used >>by people >>in any single country of the world. >>I find it rather saddening that this has occurred - I will >continue to >>listen and reply to try and keep this list going -- will the >>rest of you >>out there do the same ?? >> >>Inky has a good heart but perhaps a too impulsive temperament >>has taken >>over in this case -- why not teach your method to the masses >>by force of >>persuation, Inky, and not by force of typing. >>Of course there are multiple sides in the recent situation but I hope >>our love the instrument, it's possibilities and it's beatiful >>music will >>eventually prevail over the hot tempered reactions. >> >>ciao >> >>Dave S >> >> >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>
[NSP] Re: Pipes concerts etc.
Francis has a remarkable talent for insight combined with wit! C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood >Sent: Sunday, May 29, 2011 10:57 AM >To: Anthony Robb >Cc: Dartmouth NPS >Subject: [NSP] Re: Pipes concerts etc. > > >On 29 May 2011, at 09:40, Anthony Robb wrote: > >> It's such a pity that this part of the tradition (which was in some >> ways a truer and longer tradition than the Clough one) is not only >> ignored but actively denied in some quarters. > >Someone once said 'A language is a dialect with an army'. >Well, of course, it was the Cloughs who had the explosives. >Haswellite, I believe! > >But more seriously, you're right to point out that there were >other traditions, some still going strong. Whilst accepting >basic principles, there's more than one way to play. >Any instrument which is capable of only one narrowly >prescribed style isn't worth playing. > >Francis > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Concerts in France
Thanks for the redirection. I would otherwise have missed this. Do I detect two flavours here? Machine and very bad human translation? E.g. how do we explain "drowns". Wait (yet) another five years... CB > >The link via the Union Flag button doesn't work but the "translation" >follows the French. It's hilarious! > >Cheers, Paul Gretton To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Rules
Yup, there's a traditional way, and other approaches have grown from it - arguably enriching it. Like with any other instrument. C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Inky- Adrian >Sent: Saturday, May 28, 2011 12:54 AM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Rules > > > I don't want a definate rule I would just like thr NPS to >acknowledge > that there is a traditional way of playing the small-pipes which is > detached. If they don' t, then they are saying that the >pipes have no > playing tradition, therefore I'm playing pipes which are a >bastard- no > lineage of how they are played. > -- > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: new group
> but what you could do >for the NPS" > The kindest thing I could do for the NPS (or indeed for the NSP, to which my previous message related - oops, overhasty again) might be to leave it in peace ;-) C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: new group
>"Ask not what the NPS has done for you, but what you could do >for the NPS" > >Discuss (politely). It has given me great lessons in humility... Is that polite enough? C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: tune of the month
Nice one Francis. Happy daze. >-Original Message- >From: Francis Wood [mailto:oatenp...@googlemail.com] >Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2011 11:23 AM >To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) >Cc: dir...@gmail.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: tune of the month > >Since I've never felt the urge to compete, perhaps I shouldn't >really comment. But from what I've observed, the competition >element in the NSP world is nothing like that in GHB piping. > >It seems to me that NSP competition is far more about >participation in traditional events and receiving some >personal endorsement of achievement, rather than defeating the >opposition. > >I've no idea what melodeon culture and tradition is like, but >evidently it cannot be ancient, as piping traditions are. If >there are strong feelings about how things should be done >(preferably expressed in a friendly way, but I won't lose >sleep if they are not), I'm interested and glad to read them >in this forum. This is essentially a pretty friendly place, >though with the occasional angry outburst. Rather like any >average marriage, I guess. > >Love n' Peace to all, > >Francis > > >On 24 May 2011, at 09:33, > wrote: > >>> Perhaps one of the reasons the melodeon group is so >friendly is that >>> they don't have competition built into their culture the way pipers >>> do. (For a diatribe on the subject see my editorial at >>> [2]www.theotherpipers.org). >>> >> >> Excellent article! >> Csírz >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[NSP] Re: tune of the month
> Perhaps one of the reasons the melodeon group is so friendly is that > they don't have competition built into their culture the way pipers > do. (For a diatribe on the subject see my editorial at > [2]www.theotherpipers.org). > Excellent article! Csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Whatever!
Thanks Philip. I vaguely knew this, but was alluding to the fact that it's usually a particular female piper who comes in for the most vicious and unwarranted attacks (she can play as good a staccato as anyone when she chooses, but has committed the unforgivable sin of being too successful) - and now poor Alice. I put "feminam" because I couldn't remember the accusative of "mulier" ;-) c > most >people these >days neither know nor care...;-) >(actually, I suppose, *most* people never did) Sad but true, though getting your endings wrong in a highly inflected language like Latin, Finnish or the Slav and Baltic groups can mangle your message rather more seriously than getting them wrong in, say, German. >Grumpy Old Man, Educational Standards Going to the Dogs etc. etc. Idem C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Philip Gruar >Sent: Monday, May 23, 2011 12:12 PM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Re: Whatever! > >- Original Message - >From: >Adrian indulges in ad hominem (and especially ad feminam) >attacks himself >often enough. >> >> C > >Can't resist a bit of pedantry - and reversion to my long-ago >alter-ego as a >Latin teacher! > >'ad hominem' can apply to women too, since strictly speaking >'homo' means >member of mankind -'man' as opposed to beast or god, not male >person as >opposed to female. 'Man' as opposed to Woman is 'Vir', so it >would have to >be 'ad virum' if you wanted to be precise about the victim's sex. >Having said that, Roman society was so male-dominated that 'homo' in >practice usually means a male, unless woman is specified. > >Anyway Chris, well done for getting the ending right - most >people these >days neither know nor care...;-) >(actually, I suppose, *most* people never did) > >Grumpy Old Man, Educational Standards Going to the Dogs etc. etc. >Philip > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Whatever!
Well it's added a welcome bit of humour, and Adrian indulges in for ad hominem (and especially ad feminam) attacks himself often enough. C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Vernon Levy >Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 2:29 PM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Re: Whatever! > >I don't think this distasteful ad hominem attack has added >anything to the debate. > > >On 22 May 2011, at 12:39, John Poohbah wrote: > >> Inky Adrian writes: >> " I'm not influenced by money." >> Of course it is easy for Inky to say, being in regular >receipt of a welfare cheq >> ue on account of his allergy to signal boxes! >> Inky Adrian continues: >> "We now have some-one playing 60-odd key's in 78 note's? >Correct me if I'm wrong >> ." >> Well, I must take you to task over the plethora of >inappropriate apostrophes rep >> lacing correct pluralisation. >> I am moved to add that Alice looks much nicer in a dress but >I would like to con >> gratulate Inky on his walk-on part in the latest "Pirates of >the Caribbean" movi >> e. >> John >> >> -- >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn, and whatever
Well said, Richard. Shame it's all been said before and fallen on deaf ears ;-( >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York >Sent: Sunday, May 22, 2011 12:20 PM >To: NSP group >Subject: [NSP] Re: Alice Burn, and whatever > > > Hi, > I've just got back from a week away to find this lot, and >would really > like to listen to Alice & Emily's sound. > Sadly when I click on the link the RealPlayer box duly pops >up, takes > ages to load, then sits there refusing to do anything. > It's probably something very computer illiterate I'm doing - any > helpful comments would be welcome, please. > As a fool stepping in where angels, etc. >Bach's music can work fantastically on totally authentic period > instruments, if the musicians are good enough. >His music can also work well with modern electrics, if the >musicians > are good enough. > I believe JSB himself reckoned the piano would never catch on, as it > was when he first heard it. Then it developed. > Some musical experiments are regrettable, but if they don't speak to > enough people they die out; if they do they live, and >tastes change and > develop. > In the 70's I really liked folk rock, and Steel-eye Span; >these days I > prefer the more traditional bare-bones stuff I would have got bored > with then. > As a parallel, I happen to like small harps, and really >don't like much > of the sound of the (to my mind) over-developed full >orchestral harp, > but it seems to please a lot of intelligent people. > Is it so terrible to push the boundaries? > Who does the music belong to? > Who needs protecting from what? > Should we start a music and philosophy group :) > And I still can't get the clips to work. > Richard. > On 19/05/2011 22:28, Anthony Robb wrote: > > Hello folks > There may be one or two apart from Adrian interested in the Alice > person. > Here she is playing with Emily Hoile at the Chantry Museum >last night > for the Windy Gyle Band Force 6 launch. This won't be to everyone's > liking but gives a flavour of what she & Emily get up to >when left to > their own devices. Aplogies for overloads, I started my >Edirol running > and then totally neglected the levels - Emily's harp shook >the living > daylights out of it! > [1][1]http://www.robbpipes.com/AliceEmily > Cheers > Anthony > P.S. it was a grand night - thank you Anne M. > > -- > >References > > 1. [2]http://www.robbpipes.com/AliceEmily > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >[3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > > -- > >References > > 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/AliceEmily > 2. http://www.robbpipes.com/AliceEmily > 3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[NSP] Re: whatever
>Thanks Julia, > >I really appreciate the wholly positive approach of your post. > >Chris Me too Another Chris To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn - hear Emily play
I fully agree with Anthony, and as I have said before, I find it a little odd that NSP should be the only instrument in existence for which there is one and only one way of playing. I would credit it with being less restricted than that! Choyte is just a disparaging word for certain types of ornamentation, used (the word) by people who happen not to like it (the ornamentation). C > The beauty of Alice's playing for me is that she puts very tight > staccato as well as choytes in the same piece. For some of us > this gives depth and variety and adds more strings to her > very expressive bow. Exactly - she can do the staccato or add cuts (to borrow the UP term) etc. as her feeling for the music suggests/demands Adrian is of course entitled to his opinion. He is not, however, entitled to demand/dictate that we all share it. But this has all been said before at length... Keep smiling. Csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alice's Chanter
> Honestly Christopher, it was a concert pitch G chanter - >I'd reeded it > and set it up for her. Wow! I'd misinterpreted your observation that "the A part has about 78 notes and 62 of them are played on the right thumb so even electronic pipes don't help unless of course you cheat by electronically transposing" as casting doubt on whether it was in fact a G chanter she was using. >The first one was Troy's Wedding in the > (nominal) keys of D, C, G and A on her F chanter she was 11 >years old > at the time. Sound interesting. Where can I find this tune? This sounds like the kind of challenge I need to steer me out of the doldrums. > She's an amazing lass! Indeed! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Alice Burn - hear Emily play
Delightful, and what a weird and wonderful approach to the harp! C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb >Sent: Thursday, May 19, 2011 11:29 PM >To: Dartmouth NPS >Subject: [NSP] Alice Burn > > > Hello folks > There may be one or two apart from Adrian interested in the Alice > person. > Here she is playing with Emily Hoile at the Chantry Museum >last night > for the Windy Gyle Band Force 6 launch. This won't be to everyone's > liking but gives a flavour of what she & Emily get up to >when left to > their own devices. Aplogies for overloads, I started my >Edirol running > and then totally neglected the levels - Emily's harp shook >the living > daylights out of it! > [1]http://www.robbpipes.com/AliceEmily > Cheers > Anthony > P.S. it was a grand night - thank you Anne M. > > -- > >References > > 1. http://www.robbpipes.com/AliceEmily > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Various
> Tune in E maj on G chanter - the A part has about 78 notes and 62 of > them are played on the right thumb so even electronic pipes >don't help > unless of course you cheat by electronically transposing. Assuming that Catriona's fiddle was at concert pitch and that she was playing in E major, I think the most likely explanation for the pipes would be that Alice was playing a chanter in concert F sharp. In nominal terms this would put her in F, with B flat the only "unusual" note. On a concert F chanter she would have to have been playing in nominal F sharp (ouch) and on a D chanter in nominal A. It would be interesting to know what she was in fact playing. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
chanter or a G >chanter. Assuming that we're talking about nominal rather than absolute pitches, this wouldn't make any difference, would it? C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
> For me she is rather special because her ego is in inverse cubic > proportion to her talent. What a refreshing change! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
>I'm rather busy and have a lot >going on in my head. I >don't claim to have thoroughly thought through every word of >my posting. Been there, done that, my sympathies! c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
Thanks, John. I actually knew this. Maybe what I should have said was "I don't understand the reference to 'drones' here." The appropriateness of the reference to tuning is perfectly clear. One has similar problems playing in C major on the fiddle. I find when playing multiple stops you have to decide whetherto take the open G or the open E as the reference (and which when) and make comma adjustments when changing from one to the other. The alternative is to temper the fifths, and tempered intervals (especially fifths) don't sound as nice as pure ones on either the fiddle or the pipes. C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Gibbons, John >Sent: Tuesday, May 10, 2011 12:08 PM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Re: even more on G and D > >The main trouble in C major is the third, E. >If it is tuned a fifth above A, which is a fifth above D, >which is a fifth above G, which is a fifth above C, >then it will be too sharp for C major. A major third is >perceptibly flatter thanfour fifths minus 2 octaves. >Either this chain of fifths all need flattening slightly, or >you need careful attention to bag pressure to keep the E's in tune. >If a set were designed to play in C and F a lot, the maker >might have to sacrifice the option of playing in A. >Playing in E is already problematic for 'normal' sets designed >around G major. > >John > > > > >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >Behalf Of christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu >[christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu] >Sent: 10 May 2011 09:09 >To: julia@nspipes.co.uk; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; a@ntlworld.com >Subject: [NSP] Re: even more on G and D > >right next to G, is C - so the drones are >>not being forced into >>unnatural contortions to get there in terms of temperament, > > >I don't understand the reference to temperament here. >C > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[NSP] Re: even more on G and D
right next to G, is C - so the drones are >not being forced into >unnatural contortions to get there in terms of temperament, I don't understand the reference to temperament here. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: D chanter on AU ebay
This is a bit confusing as the key in the Fnat position is Eb on an F chanter. So, using nominal pitches the keys would be Fnat, a, c (little finger) and b, d thumb? Indeed an odd selection. I have a nominal top c on my F chanter, but it hardly ever gets used and I frankly wish I hadn't bothered. I'm glad the maker at least dissuaded me from getting a top Bb. C > >The key in the Fnat position is Cnat on a D chanter > >The top thumb hole is D - the picture shows four keys with holes >positioned above this. Two on the little finger (e,g) and two on the >thumb (f#,a) > >R To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: D chanter on AU ebay
Well I'm glad someone else was wondering. I thought I might just be being stupid again. The top end looked fairly standard to me with what was clearly an Fnat key. It would be nice to know what the other two were. CB >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of John Dally >Sent: Thursday, March 24, 2011 6:26 PM >To: NSP group >Subject: [NSP] D chanter on AU ebay > >Curious about the keys on this chanter. >Chanter Keys (10 - A, B, C, d, e, f, g, G#, a, A#, b, c, Cnat, >d, E, F, G, A) >If transposed to an F chanter that would be D E F# g a b c C# d D# e >f# Fnat g A B C D. That is an unusual selection isn't it? > >Thanks for posting, Julia, but I don't think I'll be bidding on it. > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
a comparison of the fourth fret harmonic on the g string of a guitar
and the fifth fret harmonic on the b string is probably closer to home,
but Ligeti is well worth exploring.
c
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Gibbons, John
Sent: Fri 2/11/2011 6:33 PM
To: NSP group
Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
There's a concerto of Ligeti's where there's a 'chord' for horns,
of a pair of E flats, on horns of different pitches, so they are a
comma apart.
A lovely noise, and very effective in context.
If anyone needs to know what a comma feels like, that's the place to
look.
John
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [[1]mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu]
On Behalf Of John Dally
Sent: 11 February 2011 16:44
To: NSP group
Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
This discussion prompted me to read again a book I read a couple of
years ago: HOW EQUAL TEMPERAMENT RUINED HARMONY (AND WHY YOU SHOULD
CARE), by Ross W. Duffin, Norton, NY, 2007. Duffin and Benade were
colleagues. Duffin is a professor of Early Music. Trying to wrap my
brain commas and the "wolf" and the difference between a Ab and G#,
always with the idea in mind of tuning a chanter to drones, it would
appear that an important aspect, perhaps even an advantage, to the
keyless chanter is that you can tune it more closely to the drones
because you have fewer compromises to make, because the chanter is
designed to play, basically, in one key.
It would be very interesting if one of the pipemakers lurking here
would comment on the above. Is my speculation correct?
There is another book, TEMPERAMENT: THE IDEA THAT SOLVED MUSIC'S
GREATEST RIDDLE (2001) which I also read. Along with finding it
nearly useless as a player an instrument with Just Intonation, the
author draws some very extravagent conclusions and makes some
historical errors.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Francis Wood
wrote:
> Glad you also think it's good, Bob.
>
> A little background on Benade here:
>
> [2]http://acousticalsociety.org/about/awards/gold/12_10_10_benade
>
> [3]https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html
>
> What I like is that the material links the theoretical aspects of
acoustics to the practical ways in which instruments actually behave -
as well as the modifications which players like to undertake.
>
> His other excellent book is 'Horns, Strings and Harmony', a rather
more populist work. Despite the title, there's a good bit about
woodwind, including his design for a multi-keyed flute made out of
tubing and bits of tin can. A keen maker, though not a craftsman; he
wanted to see how things could be made to work and how they could be
modified to work better.
>
> Francis
> On 11 Feb 2011, at 13:44, BobG wrote:
>
>> Francis,
>> Thanks for the ref to Arthur Benade's book. I've just bought it, and
first indications are that it is excellent!
>> Bob
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Francis Wood"
>> To:
>> Cc: "Dartmouth NPS"
>> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 2:38 PM
>> Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 Feb 2011, at 13:43, Julia Say wrote:
>>>
a small depression could surely catch a sound
wave at a funny angle and cause it to behave in a less than
theoretically perfect
manner
>>>
>>> It's really much more like the effect caused by a tiny irregularity
in a tooth. It seems massively more important than it actually is.
>>>
>>> There's absolutely no possibility of "theoretically perfect"
behaviour in a woodwind bore, so consequently these insignificant
irregularities cannot possibly disturb such perfection.
>>> Practically speaking (unless one is unbelievably expert) the
factors influencing sound waves in an NSP bore are a good mixture of
the laws of Physics and Sod's Law. In varying proportions, obviously.
>>>
>>> I don't think I've seen Arthur Benade's Fundamentals of Musical
Acoustics mentioned in this forum. I certainly can't claim to know it
well, or to understand most of it. But I think it is one of the best
regarded textbooks on musical acoustics written by a first class
scientist who also enjoyed making musical instruments (especially wind)
when he wasn't busy with the day job.
>>>
>>> I'm mentioning this here because it's a book I turn to in curiosity
when the behaviour of woodwinds is in question.
>>>
>>> Francis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [4]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
References
1. mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu
2. http://acousticalsociety.org/about/awards/gold/12_10_10_benade
3. https
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
yup, duffin highly recommended. fairly technical but entertaingly
written.
I don't think I'll bother with tother.
c
-Original Message-
From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of John Dally
Sent: Fri 2/11/2011 5:44 PM
To: NSP group
Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
This discussion prompted me to read again a book I read a couple of
years ago: HOW EQUAL TEMPERAMENT RUINED HARMONY (AND WHY YOU SHOULD
CARE), by Ross W. Duffin, Norton, NY, 2007. Duffin and Benade were
colleagues. Duffin is a professor of Early Music. Trying to wrap my
brain commas and the "wolf" and the difference between a Ab and G#,
always with the idea in mind of tuning a chanter to drones, it would
appear that an important aspect, perhaps even an advantage, to the
keyless chanter is that you can tune it more closely to the drones
because you have fewer compromises to make, because the chanter is
designed to play, basically, in one key.
It would be very interesting if one of the pipemakers lurking here
would comment on the above. Is my speculation correct?
There is another book, TEMPERAMENT: THE IDEA THAT SOLVED MUSIC'S
GREATEST RIDDLE (2001) which I also read. Along with finding it
nearly useless as a player an instrument with Just Intonation, the
author draws some very extravagent conclusions and makes some
historical errors.
On Fri, Feb 11, 2011 at 6:03 AM, Francis Wood
wrote:
> Glad you also think it's good, Bob.
>
> A little background on Benade here:
>
> [1]http://acousticalsociety.org/about/awards/gold/12_10_10_benade
>
> [2]https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html
>
> What I like is that the material links the theoretical aspects of
acoustics to the practical ways in which instruments actually behave -
as well as the modifications which players like to undertake.
>
> His other excellent book is 'Horns, Strings and Harmony', a rather
more populist work. Despite the title, there's a good bit about
woodwind, including his design for a multi-keyed flute made out of
tubing and bits of tin can. A keen maker, though not a craftsman; he
wanted to see how things could be made to work and how they could be
modified to work better.
>
> Francis
> On 11 Feb 2011, at 13:44, BobG wrote:
>
>> Francis,
>> Thanks for the ref to Arthur Benade's book. I've just bought it, and
first indications are that it is excellent!
>> Bob
>>
>> - Original Message - From: "Francis Wood"
>> To:
>> Cc: "Dartmouth NPS"
>> Sent: Thursday, February 10, 2011 2:38 PM
>> Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
>>
>>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 10 Feb 2011, at 13:43, Julia Say wrote:
>>>
a small depression could surely catch a sound
wave at a funny angle and cause it to behave in a less than
theoretically perfect
manner
>>>
>>> It's really much more like the effect caused by a tiny irregularity
in a tooth. It seems massively more important than it actually is.
>>>
>>> There's absolutely no possibility of "theoretically perfect"
behaviour in a woodwind bore, so consequently these insignificant
irregularities cannot possibly disturb such perfection.
>>> Practically speaking (unless one is unbelievably expert) the
factors influencing sound waves in an NSP bore are a good mixture of
the laws of Physics and Sod's Law. In varying proportions, obviously.
>>>
>>> I don't think I've seen Arthur Benade's Fundamentals of Musical
Acoustics mentioned in this forum. I certainly can't claim to know it
well, or to understand most of it. But I think it is one of the best
regarded textbooks on musical acoustics written by a first class
scientist who also enjoyed making musical instruments (especially wind)
when he wasn't busy with the day job.
>>>
>>> I'm mentioning this here because it's a book I turn to in curiosity
when the behaviour of woodwinds is in question.
>>>
>>> Francis
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> To get on or off this list see list information at
>>> [3]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
>>
>>
>>
>>
>
>
>
>
--
References
1. http://acousticalsociety.org/about/awards/gold/12_10_10_benade
2. https://ccrma.stanford.edu/marl/Benade/BenadeHome.html
3. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
>As establishing frequencies was yet to come, I think establishing frequencies goes back at least as far as Mersenne's time but I've no idea how they did it. I can't think of any other explanation for the figures accompanying his illustration of the various sizes in the violin family, which appear to suggest that the strings went up in fifths starting from what would be something like a low Bb in modern terms. i.e. the bass would be tuned Bb-F-C-C, the next one up F-C-G-D and so on. This may be totally incorrect, so if anyone with in-depth musicological knowledge can explain these figures (what they indicate and how they were arrived at?) I would be eternally grateful. I can (illegally, probably) send you a scan of the pages in question. (I haven't got the complete work - just an extract in a Fuzeau facsimile of historical viola and pardessus methods). CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch
One maker having lots of influence again, or rather previously! C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Francis Wood >Sent: Wednesday, February 09, 2011 10:31 AM >To: Paul Gretton >Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu group >Subject: [NSP] Re: Tuning/pitch > > >On 9 Feb 2011, at 07:20, Paul Gretton wrote: > >> So in fact the variety of pitches for the NSP is extremely >traditional! Two >> hundred years ago it wouldn't have been thought in any way >remarkable. > >Hello Paul and others, > >I must say, I disagree here. > >It's often forgotten that the the NSP of two hundred years ago >- the conventional fully keyed form - was the product of a >single workshop and was played in a relatively narrow >geographical area. >There's no reason to suppose that Robert and James Reid were >careless about the consistency of pitch of their products. No >doubt, they would be extremely surprised to know of the >latitude in pitch (and indeed tuning) of many of today's pipes. > >Francis > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Tuning
Fair enough. George Welch sings it in B minor - or very low of course. though George appears to be having problems with the high notes even at this pitch. c __ From: Matt Seattle [mailto:theborderpi...@googlemail.com] Sent: Tuesday, February 08, 2011 5:12 PM To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT) Cc: anth...@robbpipes.com; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: Tuning On Tue, Feb 8, 2011 at 10:06 AM, <[1]christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu> wrote: > Also, it's a song and all of the singers I have backed prefer that key. Yes, it would be horribly high in A min unless you were a natural light tenor. Fair enough. George Welch sings it in B minor - [2]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=map9v2neGbA and Judy Dinning sings it in A minor. As a non-NSP player I had assumed that it would feel more at home on the un-keyed notes. Robert Bewick has it in A minor in a setting which has high a and omits f. -- References 1. mailto:christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu 2. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=map9v2neGbA To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning
> I set my Korg DA 30 to 446 using the calibration button >and take it Sorry to be a nuisance (again!), but what note on the chanter do you tune for zero deviation of the needle? The (nominal) G or the (nominal) B? (or other?) Thanks CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Tuning
> Also, it's a song and all of the singers I have backed prefer that key. Yes, it would be horribly high in A min unless you were a natural light tenor. > And finally, as an instrumental it makes a loamishly > lovely springboard to dive into P B's P. I don't know PBP but BAM sounds wonderful at the deeper pitch (and I have got F nats). C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Equal temperament of course has its place as does chromaticism, but I think except for keyboard-players, who can't (unless they have split-key harpsichords or such like), even when playing highly chromatic music the best musicians constantly tweak their tuning to produce the most harmonious result - even in "atonal" 20th century music. I haven't got an oscilloscope, nor do I know how to use one, but I think a scientific analysis would demonstrate that top musicians use more than twelve different pitches even in "twelve tone" music. Certainly, music in awkward keys, such as C major, requires violinists etc. to make comma adjustments all over the place depending on which open string is most prominent at the time - even in diatonic music. Too many "evens" ;-) C Equal temperament (= 1/12 comma meantone) is a microtonal system par excellence (depending on your starting point of course. Mine is just intonation, with 8 pitches to the diatonic octave). To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
What I can never understand is WHY the pitch changes. > >Orchestral pitch has become higher because orchestras over the >past couple >of hundred years have tended towards increasing "brightness" >or "brilliance" >of sound. There is a basic psychological >tendency to associate brightness with higher pitch.\ Thanks Paul, more or less what I would have written. > Also, players >intuitively feel that sharpness is more acceptable than flatness (which >sounds "sourer" and "wronger") and tend to play "at the top of >the note" to >avoid the dreaded flatness. I think we should add "unfortunately" here. Being even very slightly sharp is jarring, while playing at the bottom of the note can in many cases (excluding the fifth of a triad, for example) give a mellow richness (think David Oistrakh). In string vibrato the "in-tune" note should be the highest in the range of fluctuation. Higher pitched wind instruments >are also more >audible within the orchestral matrix. The same tendency >applies to choirs, >which generally tend to rise in pitch if not held back by the >orchestra (and >the conductor, of course). Yup, people play and sing sharp in order to hear [italics/bold on] themselves [italics/bold off] better. Then it snowballs. solution -- as >always -- was to force people to "listen to the f***in' bass >line!" Since >all the upper parts are essentially overtones of the bass, >staying in tune >with the bass is the only way to be in tune. Quite!!! csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
>And I've been telling people it is because all notes have got >gradually >sharper over the last 150 years, and that the Reid 'ur-pipes' >were made >when G was somewhere between where F and G are now. Have I been wrong >all this time? This is probably an associated factor. My speculation about the 440 tuning fork more concerned modern pipes (which are inevitably in the majority) manufactured after the introduction of 440 as an international standard (though many windplayers and hence orchestras incline to 442 (or even 443) nowadays). C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
>A compromise might be a pair of e's, one a true 6th above G, >for playing in G; >another - a perfect fourth above the B, and keyed, for playing >in E minor. Yes, this is what I meant by 8 (different) notes to the octave rather than just seven. The lower, keyed, high E would also sound better when the melody emphasised the third C-E (Chevy Chase is a very obvious and simple example). >The low E might be harder to arrange practically, but may not >be as critical acoustically?? My own chanter has the low E an appreciable bit more than an octave lower than the top E, so I can get away with an E-B drone quite effectively. In other keys it is indeed not as critical acoustically. Meanwhile the top E (which I think is in a compromise position) can be bag-tweaked up or down to suit the circumstances. > >As the most prolific and also one of the best pipemakers both >produce in F+, >and most others too, I don't see much benefit in arguing who's >to blame for the emergence of this de facto standard. Please don't misunderstand me. I was not seeking to apportion blame; just speculating as to the mechanism whereby this standard came about. C > >I've heard variously "about 20" and "between 10 and 20" (and >occasionally 25) > > I tune my chanter manipulating the >>reed depending on the season and the reed, trying to get the best >>balance up and down the chanter, regardless of how many cents I'm off >>from F. Of course, this creates problems when playing with other >>pipers. But I reckon, at least I'm blowing steady and I'm in tune >>with myself. > >This is probably the best approach unless you regularly play >with others or a band > > >the more keys you >>want to play in, then the more compromises you have to make in tuning >>individual notes? > >This is inevitable. It's why the concept of "temperament" >originated in the first place. Even D poses problems where the >E is concerned (so does G for that matter!) and the B is also >problematic in A minor. > >> To play in pure Em one might have to order a >>chanter to play specifically in Em. > >In an ideal world, yes! > >CB > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > >
[NSP] Re: Chanter tuning
< blend their pipes > failry pleasantly at A=446. Do you mean tuning your nominal G to the F you get on an equal temperament tuner if you set it to A = 446? Or do you mean tuning the nominal B to 446? These two possibilities would yield different results. (a higher nominal G in the second case). especially as the chanter has a top B which is already 25 >cents flat. > I'd be interested to see the results of the cotton bud >plunger trials > before changing anything to do with the set up. I'm sure you're correct, but it sounds as though the top B definitely needs attention. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
>Can one maker (which one?) have that much influence? Possibly, I think. I didn't have a specific one in mind as I was primarily speculating on the process (that's why I wrote "a maker" rather than "one maker", but didn't CR fairly recently mention someone "down the road" making lots and lots of pipes in F+? >I was told 20 >cents sharp of F is the tradition. I've heard variously "about 20" and "between 10 and 20" (and occasionally 25) I tune my chanter manipulating the >reed depending on the season and the reed, trying to get the best >balance up and down the chanter, regardless of how many cents I'm off >from F. Of course, this creates problems when playing with other >pipers. But I reckon, at least I'm blowing steady and I'm in tune >with myself. This is probably the best approach unless you regularly play with others or a band the more keys you >want to play in, then the more compromises you have to make in tuning >individual notes? This is inevitable. It's why the concept of "temperament" originated in the first place. Even D poses problems where the E is concerned (so does G for that matter!) and the B is also problematic in A minor. > To play in pure Em one might have to order a >chanter to play specifically in Em. In an ideal world, yes! CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Chanter Tuning
>I don't know exactly how flat A = 398 is but it can't be very >far off F+, Sorry, badly worded. I mean it can't be very far off an A that would give you F+. c given that A = 392 would correspond to concert G. >I wonder if Anthony would agree therefore that since lots of >the notes are sharp, a good starting point would be to pull >the reed out a fraction? >C > >>-Original Message- >>From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >>[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb >>Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:56 PM >>To: Dartmouth NPS >>Subject: [NSP] Chanter Tuning >> >> >> >> From Chris Gregg: >> >> So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I >>thought it >> was >> just poor musicianship on my part! >> The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo >> instrument >> it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people >>get around >> it >> in recording sessions. >> >> >> Hello Chris >> >> This sounds to me as though your bottom G is a tad flat and >>that's why >> so many notes seem sharp. >> >> The other thing to say is that the chanter, in all >>likelihood, could be >> brought in tune with careful use of PVA glue (for sharp >notes) and a >> scalpel fitted with an 11P blade (for flat notes). >> >> Before doing anything drastic, however, I would get to know your >> chanter's idiosyncrasies by removing the cotton wool plug, >>if there is >> one, from the bottom of the bore. Then I'd repeat your measurements >> (draw up a table) with a cotton bud inserted at set >>positions into the >> bore. I'd start off with the rounded tip in at 10mm then go >>up by 5mm >> increments to within 15mm of your bottom D (for a 7 key chanter) >> checking the tuning of each note as you go. Write down your >>results so >> the pattern can be seen at a glance. This will tell you how >>much effect >> the standing waves below each chanter note are affecting >>the pitch of >> each note. You might find one position will bring your >>chanter closer >> in tune with itself. If the cotton bud makes matters worse >>I'd insert a >> 20mm narrow cone of cotton wool (point first) into the >>chanter and see >> if that helps. >> >> If you do need to resort to scalpel & glue I'd do this with >>the cotton >> wool cone to minimise standing waves interfering with your tuning. >> >> Let me know how you get on. >> >> With regards to recording sessions every group of pipers of >>pipers will >> have their own solution. As you say solo is fine as the piper can >> adjust where necessary. At the other end of the scale >>massed pipes are >> OK too because variations with 5 chanters or more tend to >>balance out. >> The trickiest we find is when 3 pipes are playing >together. We found >> that recording the three chanters together without drones (live or >> recorded) works best as each of us listens out for what is >happening >> with the other players and adjusts where necessary. Then drones are >> tuned to the chanters and added to the mix. This can mean >up to 11.5 >> mins of constant drone without fingering the chanter at >all which is >> surprisingly tiring on the fingers. It also means that >>chanters have to >> be played at a fairly consistent pitch and in with each >>other without >> any external reference point at all. But then as we can >see from the >> recent posts external references are often a hindrance >rather that a >> help in that situation. >> >> I hope some of this helps but please remember no theories >whatsoever >> have been used as a basis for this advice just 40 years >>mucking about >> with some of the loveliest chanters around (Burleigh, >>Gruar, Hedworth, >> Nelson and Ross) and nowt but my own lugs as final arbiter. >> >> Good Luck >> >> Anthony >> >> -- >> >> >>To get on or off this list see list information at >>http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > > >
[NSP] Re: Chanter Tuning
I don't know exactly how flat A = 398 is but it can't be very far off F+, given that A = 392 would correspond to concert G. I wonder if Anthony would agree therefore that since lots of the notes are sharp, a good starting point would be to pull the reed out a fraction? C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb >Sent: Saturday, February 05, 2011 12:56 PM >To: Dartmouth NPS >Subject: [NSP] Chanter Tuning > > > > From Chris Gregg: > > So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I >thought it > was > just poor musicianship on my part! > The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo > instrument > it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people >get around > it > in recording sessions. > > > Hello Chris > > This sounds to me as though your bottom G is a tad flat and >that's why > so many notes seem sharp. > > The other thing to say is that the chanter, in all >likelihood, could be > brought in tune with careful use of PVA glue (for sharp notes) and a > scalpel fitted with an 11P blade (for flat notes). > > Before doing anything drastic, however, I would get to know your > chanter's idiosyncrasies by removing the cotton wool plug, >if there is > one, from the bottom of the bore. Then I'd repeat your measurements > (draw up a table) with a cotton bud inserted at set >positions into the > bore. I'd start off with the rounded tip in at 10mm then go >up by 5mm > increments to within 15mm of your bottom D (for a 7 key chanter) > checking the tuning of each note as you go. Write down your >results so > the pattern can be seen at a glance. This will tell you how >much effect > the standing waves below each chanter note are affecting >the pitch of > each note. You might find one position will bring your >chanter closer > in tune with itself. If the cotton bud makes matters worse >I'd insert a > 20mm narrow cone of cotton wool (point first) into the >chanter and see > if that helps. > > If you do need to resort to scalpel & glue I'd do this with >the cotton > wool cone to minimise standing waves interfering with your tuning. > > Let me know how you get on. > > With regards to recording sessions every group of pipers of >pipers will > have their own solution. As you say solo is fine as the piper can > adjust where necessary. At the other end of the scale >massed pipes are > OK too because variations with 5 chanters or more tend to >balance out. > The trickiest we find is when 3 pipes are playing together. We found > that recording the three chanters together without drones (live or > recorded) works best as each of us listens out for what is happening > with the other players and adjusts where necessary. Then drones are > tuned to the chanters and added to the mix. This can mean up to 11.5 > mins of constant drone without fingering the chanter at all which is > surprisingly tiring on the fingers. It also means that >chanters have to > be played at a fairly consistent pitch and in with each >other without > any external reference point at all. But then as we can see from the > recent posts external references are often a hindrance rather that a > help in that situation. > > I hope some of this helps but please remember no theories whatsoever > have been used as a basis for this advice just 40 years >mucking about > with some of the loveliest chanters around (Burleigh, >Gruar, Hedworth, > Nelson and Ross) and nowt but my own lugs as final arbiter. > > Good Luck > > Anthony > > -- > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
"exactly the same B" as he had in the chord at the beginning >of the piece. The rest of us immediately said, "That is the >problem. In the first chord your B was the fifth in the E >minor chord, and at the end it is the 3rd of the G major chord." This is the same phenomenon as I was banging on about a few days ago. >(i.e. concert F or G depending on which chanter is >being used) because that is a better note to tune to than the >traditional A - especially if most of the tunes to be played >will be in G, It is my speculation that the F+ tuning originated from a prolific maker taking an A = 440 tuning fork as the reference for the nominal B and then tuning chanters by ear, with the (desirable) result that the nominal G ended up around 14 cents sharp of concert G because it had been tuned acoustically pure rather than to an equally tempered reference tone. Reverse this process, and a "concert F" chanter will have a nominal B that is (desirably) around 14 cents flat of the A string of a violin tuned to A = 440. F+ is often described as "around 10 to 20 cents sharp" of concert F. 14 is near as dammit in the middle of that range. >When you listen to really good "a capella" (unaccompanied) >small vocal ensembles such as the "King's Singers" you are >struck by the perfection of their harmonies. Or the Hilliard Ensemble. Or autotuned pop singers! > >Perhaps other people disagree with me and this will stir up a >hornet's nest. It is just my personal thoughts on the subject >and i don't claim to be an expert. Sheila, these may be your personal thoughts, but not "just". They are backed up by physics and arithmetic. Details of tuning may well be a matter of preference, but they are not a matter of opinion. I don't claim to be an expert either, but I do claim to have understood the essentials and to have an ear that is sensitive to pure intervals. Any hornets nest could only be stirred up by people with bees in their bonnet ;-) HTH Csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
as regards equal temperament, I agree that the fifths are tolerable. It's the thirds, sixths and sevenths that are ghastly. you don't necessarily need a new chanter. you can flatten notes by putting a crescent of, say, white woodglue on the topside of the hole (easily removable) and sharpen a note by undercutting the hole with a file (if you're confident that you really know what you're doing. I'm not, so I've never tried it). c -Original Message- From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu on behalf of Christopher Gregg Sent: Sat 2/5/2011 5:12 AM To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships So that is why my pipes always sound out of tune, and I thought it was just poor musicianship on my part! I have just checked out the deviation on my pipes with a tuner on my Iphone. Very interesting results.I offset the tuner to A398, so that the needle would hold still on the G. I did not use a mamoneter and I rounded out the notes to the nearest five cents. There was some correlation with Mike Nelson's chart, but also some serious differences. The b above g was approx ten cents flat, the upper B more than 25 cents flat. The upper A is 20 cents sharp, which explains why the B always sounds so flat and I try and compensate with the bag. Now my e and f#s are both on the sharp side which is the opposite to Mikes chart. I can see that I need a new chanter, but my question is, why not use equal temperament Now I can see why the fifths on the drones should be tuned pure, but in equal temperament the fifth would only beat one time in two and a half seconds, which is hardly noticeable. Is it so bad to have a little beating on the third and sixth with the drones? It is not like we can play chords on the chanter, unless it is with another set of pipes. Every one else in the world pretty well plays to equal temperament and also use tuning machines to verify their results. I am aware of perfect pitch but never having just intonation. That is very interesting. The whole tuning thing is a bit of a quagmire, and as a solo instrument it is not a problem, but I would like to know how people get around it in recording sessions. Chris Gregg -- Forwarded message -- From: <[1]christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu> Date: Fri, Feb 4, 2011 at 2:40 AM Subject: [NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships To: [2]rich...@lizards.force9.co.uk, [3]nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Btw, Rob Say's nsp simulator is in equal temperament. I've discussed this with him and he agrees that it's less than ideal but it's neverthless a good starting point for beginners - which was what is was intended to be. When it tells you that, for example, the G and D drones are in tune, the d is still slightly (2 cents) flat relative to the G, but the just increment is not available - next click and it's sharp. Add the B on the chanter to the "in tune" fifth and you get an equally tempered G major triad, which is OK on a percussion instrument like the piano, where inharmonicity (q.v.) is part of the basic sound anyway and the sound mercifully decays fairly rapidly, but it sounds jarring to the ears of, for example, a sensitive piper or string-player. I hope I can feel confident that Rob will not object to my taking his name in vain. Csirz P.S. Have any fiddlers/violinists out there wondered why it's so difficult to sound in tune in C major - especially if there are lots of double stops and chords (e.g. Paganini's 11th caprice to take an obvious example )? It's because you have to decide at any point whether you want/need to be in tune with the G string or the E string. To be in tune with both, you have to temper (narrow) your fifths, and then the fifths sound rongue. The chord GEbe (open G, first finger E+b, open e) (not encountered in said caprice, btw) is impossible to get in tune unless you tweak the finger sharp as you pass from the E to the b. Anyone really interested should look up "syntonic comma" (which is the difference between five perfect fifths (= open strings of viola + violin) and two octaves and a pure major third). It's the reason why guitarists with sensitive ears are never happy with the tuning of the G and b strings (and why you can't tune the fifth fret harmonic on the b string to the fourth fret harmonic on the g string - although many try to!). Once you've got used to hearing/listening to pure intervals, you realise that these are by no means dry, academic, theoretical considerations. If you haven't yet acquired the
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
Btw, Rob Say's nsp simulator is in equal temperament. I've discussed this with him and he agrees that it's less than ideal but it's neverthless a good starting point for beginners - which was what is was intended to be. When it tells you that, for example, the G and D drones are in tune, the d is still slightly (2 cents) flat relative to the G, but the just increment is not available - next click and it's sharp. Add the B on the chanter to the "in tune" fifth and you get an equally tempered G major triad, which is OK on a percussion instrument like the piano, where inharmonicity (q.v.) is part of the basic sound anyway and the sound mercifully decays fairly rapidly, but it sounds jarring to the ears of, for example, a sensitive piper or string-player. I hope I can feel confident that Rob will not object to my taking his name in vain. Csírz P.S. Have any fiddlers/violinists out there wondered why it's so difficult to sound in tune in C major - especially if there are lots of double stops and chords (e.g. Paganini's 11th caprice to take an obvious example )? It's because you have to decide at any point whether you want/need to be in tune with the G string or the E string. To be in tune with both, you have to temper (narrow) your fifths, and then the fifths sound rongue. The chord GEbe (open G, first finger E+b, open e) (not encountered in said caprice, btw) is impossible to get in tune unless you tweak the finger sharp as you pass from the E to the b. Anyone really interested should look up "syntonic comma" (which is the difference between five perfect fifths (= open strings of viola + violin) and two octaves and a pure major third). It's the reason why guitarists with sensitive ears are never happy with the tuning of the G and b strings (and why you can't tune the fifth fret harmonic on the b string to the fourth fret harmonic on the g string - although many try to!). Once you've got used to hearing/listening to pure intervals, you realise that these are by no means dry, academic, theoretical considerations. If you haven't yet acquired the taste, you have a treat in store. Go for it. I was actually born with just intonation ears - so my music teacher at school told me (or words to that effect). C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
The tuning given here is basically just intonation rather than meantone: http://www.machineconcepts.co.uk/smallpipes/tuning.htm In other words, acoustically pure intervals. No tempering at all. >but on a piano a fifth is a fifth is a fifth (nearly). Nearly = two cents narrow cf. Mike Nelson's correct fifths. The problem with just intonation (with G as the home key) is that it gives you perfect triads on G, C and D but the "fifth" between A and top e is unusable as such (2O cents narrower than equal temperament = 22 cents narrower than just i.e. acoustically pure, 2:3 ratio). The top e needs to be pressure-tweaked to give a good fifth above A. left alone it gives a good third with C. You can't have both with the same pitch. What we really need is eight notes (= different pitch classes) to the octave rather than just seven. And this is just for G major. No one needs to take my word for any of this. There's masses of stuff on tuning on the net. HTH csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Esoteric tuning relationships
> I put this down to my pipes being tuned with G as their >home key, as it > were, This is probably it, as you probably (I hope) have your pipes tuned in more like just intonation than equal temperament. So your nominal B, for example, will be very flat as the second degree of the A minor scale. Playing in E minor is virtually impossible (in fact Dick Hensold reckons it is impossible) unless you tweak the B upwards quite a bit. It's doable if your bottom E is tuned flatter than an octave lower than the top e (the latter being more pressure-tweakable than the former). See Mike Nelson's website (although, strangely enough, this is not the reason he gives for the discrepant tuning). > Or am I just approaching ever nearer to being certifiably in need of > locking away? Probably. Join the club ;-) csirz -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Bewicks "German Spa"
Ouch!!! >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Ian Lawther >Sent: Tuesday, February 01, 2011 5:09 AM >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Bewicks "German Spa" > >I've just noticed a tune called "German Spa" in Bewick and wondered if >it is, by definition, a Bad tune! > >Ian > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads
I actually rather like the 2nd viennese school version, especially with the 15/16 bars at the end of strains! c >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Gibbons, John >Sent: Monday, January 17, 2011 4:12 PM >To: 'NSP group' >Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads > >With the typographical huge leaps removed - these age-yellowed >whisky-stained MS abc files are a b---r to read. > >X:2 >T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads >C:Trad? >M:4/4 >Q:1/4=60 >L:1/8 >K:A dor > g>||:f| ec BB| e>f g>e B>e B/Ge/|ec BB| >c>d e/d/c/d/ e :| >c|e>f e>a ae| f>g a>f dd| e>f e>a af| e>f >g/f/e/d/ e|| >c|e>f e>a ae| f>g a>f bd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe >(3fed| e>f g/f/e/d/ e|| >||:f|eA GB|e>B g>B e/d/c/B/ c>f|eA GB|e>B >g/f/e/d/ e:|| >G|E>F E>A CC|E>G A>c dd| E>F E>A Cc|e>f >g/f/e/d/ e|| >G|E>F E>A CC|E>G A>c de>f g/f/e/d/ e >John > > > >-Original Message- >From: Gibbons, John >Sent: 17 January 2011 12:46 >To: NSP group >Subject: RE: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads > >Richard, >Your discovery is a good one, but the rhythm of the title >''The Rotting of the Cotton Threads'' is so clearly a >Strathspey, as Francis noted, that I looked elsewhere in the >archive. On a moth eaten, yellowing, and (Speyside) >whisky-stained sheet of paper I found: > >X:2 >T: The Rotting of the Cotton Threads >C:Trad? >M:4/4 >Q:1/4=60 >L:1/8 >K:A dor > g.||:f/| ec bB| e>f g>e B>e B/Ge/|ec bB| >c>d e/d/c/d/ ec/|e>f e>a ae| f>g a>f dd| e>f e>a af| e>f >g/f/e/d/ ec/|e>f e>a ae| f>g a>f bd|(3 efg (3 agf (3 gfe >(3fed| e>f g/f/e/d/ e||:f/|eA GB|e>B g>B e/d/c/B/ c>f|eA GB|e>B >g/f/e/d/ eG/|E>F E>A CC|E>G A>c dd| E>F E>A Cc|e>f >g/f/e/d/ eG/|E>F E>A CC|E>G A>c de>f g/f/e/d/ e >Perhaps this is the one Francis was thinking of?? >The title rhythm certainly fits the first bar, so perhaps >someone can also discover the missing lyric > >John > > > > >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York >Sent: 16 January 2011 22:54 >To: NSP group >Subject: [NSP] Re: Rotting of The Cotton Threads > > In fact I'm sure it would have made more sense with the sections in >reverse order. But there you are, that's how I found it. >R. >On 16/01/2011 22:45, Richard York wrote: >> Arduous research in dusty attics and archives has revealed, >Francis, >> that I regret it's not a strathspey, more a sort of rhythmic >unravelling. >> I couldn't find anything called "The Rotting of the Cotton >Threads" as >> such, but this obviously fairly corrupt version called "The >Rotting of >> the Threads", which is pretty close, I'm sure you'll agree, >turned up >> among the yellowing manuscripts. >> It will be seen that the rhythms perhaps reflect the progressive >> degeneration of the instrument... though I feel that the copyist has >> perhaps put them in reverse order, so that rather than losing a beat >> each time, the idee fixe actually gains one. >> Strange, and rather sad, really. >> It was hard to read the writing, but I think I transcribed it >> correctly. If anyone has a better written out version I'll be >> delighted to see it. >> I copy it below in abc's >> >> X:1 >> T: The Rotting of the Threads >> C:Trad? >> M:3/4 >> Q:120 >> L:1/8 >> K:G >> |:.gA.g.c e/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gB d/2B/2A/2G/2|.EAB.c >e/2c/2B/2A/2|.DAB.c >> d/2B/2A/2G/2:| >> M:7/8 >> |: .gA.gB.c e/2d/2c/2B/2|.gA.gA.B d/2B/2A/2G/2|\ >> M:3/4 >> .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 | .DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ >> M:4/4 >> .gA.gA B.ce/2d/2c/2A/2|.gA.gA B.cd/2B/2A/G/2| >> M:3/4 >> .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2 |. DAB.c d/2B/2A/2G/2:||:/ >> M:9/8 >> .gAg .ABc .ee/2c/2B/2A/2|.gAg .ABc .dd/2B/2A/2G/2| >> M:3/4 >> .EAB.c e/2c/2B/2A/2| .DABc .d/2B/2A/2G/2:| >> >> Best wishes, >> Richard. >> >> >> On 15/01/2011 00:07, Francis Wood wrote: >>> A Strathspey, surely? >>> >>> Francis >>> On 14 Jan 2011, at 23:57, gibbonssoi...@aol.com wrote: >>> Is 'The rotting of the cotton threads' the title of a >tune I haven't learned yet? >>> >>> >>> To get on or off this list see list information at >>> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >>> >> >> >> > > > > >
[NSP] Re: Shape notes
thanks, John, though I confess I still don't see it. I haven't got anything like absolute pitch but I have got very good relative pitch and I find the intervals are perfectly clear from conventional notation - which is what you are left with if you take the shapes away. I suppose it's just a matter of people visualising things in different ways. Best CB To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Now this is really off-topic but might amuse some. If likely to disapprove, please delete now. I was once taking a sectional rehearsal for the viola in the student orchestra at the Luxembourg conservatoire (where they use the French system) when I found myself "translating" the rehearsal marks and saying things such as "let's go from three bars before Ré" instead of "... before D". My own viola teacher in a similar situation managed to say "après soixante-neuf revenez en première position". Strangely enough, I was the only one who sniggered. BTW, the language spoken in Luxembourg is Lëtzebuergesch, not French, but the good Burgers often find themselves obliged to change into French if there is a single "quarante-quatorze" or "quarante-dix-sept" in the room. (those are the départements that the "cent-onze" come from). Csirz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
Yup, I can sympathise with all this (especially the bit about unintentionally rude or nonsensical - I was once warning a class of Germans learning English to avoid the word "backside" when they mean "back" or "verso" and managed to make precisely the same mistake myself in German while doing so - doh!!!). Mercifully, I'm no longer teaching but translating, which is marginally preferable. C > > I also found it really confusing when trying to teach traditional >music in this system to French speaking groups. >Given that tonic solfa allows a movable "doh" (Or should that >be "Doh!"? >) it's a very helpful system for singing with, as long as you indeed >don't forget which of the arbitrary names means which relative pitch. >But when you're familiar with that system, trying to then translate a >tune in G from the alphabetical name system into continental style >solfa, where the instinctive tonic "Doh" of G is now called >"Sol", etc., >so that players can sing it knowing which note they're going to use on >the instrument, left my brain even more confused than you probably are >after trying to read this. >(Meanwhile trying mentally to summon my inadequate French in order to >explain the next bit of teaching material without saying anything >unintentionally rude or nonsensical at the same time.) >:) >Richard. > >On 12/01/2011 09:14, christopher.bi...@ec.europa.eu wrote: >>> I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib >>> =Meeflat = Eb >> This is correct. At the Conservatoires they teach people to >sing the note names, which I personally find a pointless >exercise for various reasons, including the fact that they >miss out the words "bémol, dièse and bécart" (flat, sharp, >nat) because there is no time to fit them in. There is also >the fact that the note-names are arbitrary (they are the >initial syllables of the lines of an ancient Latin hymn - Ut >quaent laxis) and hence don't follow any pre-existing sequence >(unlike A, B, C etc.). This is also why C is often referred to >in French as "Ut", which is strictly speaking bottom C in an >octave, the top C (or do) being, historically "haut" i.e. high. >> >> It's very impressive to hear French-trained musicians do >this at high speed tho. >> c >> >> >> >> To get on or off this list see list information at >> http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >> > >
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>I think in France they have a "fixed do" system, where mib >=Meeflat = Eb This is correct. At the Conservatoires they teach people to sing the note names, which I personally find a pointless exercise for various reasons, including the fact that they miss out the words "bémol, dièse and bécart" (flat, sharp, nat) because there is no time to fit them in. There is also the fact that the note-names are arbitrary (they are the initial syllables of the lines of an ancient Latin hymn - Ut quaent laxis) and hence don't follow any pre-existing sequence (unlike A, B, C etc.). This is also why C is often referred to in French as "Ut", which is strictly speaking bottom C in an octave, the top C (or do) being, historically "haut" i.e. high. It's very impressive to hear French-trained musicians do this at high speed tho. c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Still off topic: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>easier than straining the eye to see if that little black >circle is an A or a C and how do I then find that pitch on the >spot. Fair enough, but for someone whose vision is as bad as mine, it's easier to see where a blob is (on which line or between which lines?) than to discern the precise shape of the blob (which gives no additional information anyway, so why bother?). And why should shape be easier to correlate to a given pitch than vertical position? The notes in conventional notation (which is identical to shape-note notation minus the shapes) give the visual aid of "going up and down on the stave" while the shapes could be interchangeable by applying different conventions. Note for nothing is a scale called, literally, a "tone ladder" in, for example, Dutch and German. I personally also have a problem with tablature. Conventional notation is like a picture of the music; tablature only a picture of the instrument. All this FWIW, as ever. C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Still off topic: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>There's still though the question 'why?'. I'd have thought if a person >has the ability to learn the sol fa and the shapes, it would be easier >to learn the ordinary notes. Exactly! C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
>If your question is why those >particular >shapes - I have no idea. No, it was why shapes at all? because if you remove them you are left with conventional notation. (I have perused a copy, but unfortunately don't own one). As you say: "people who didn't read music much but were used to seeing normal notes, the shapes just confused them and complicated things. I think maybe more experienced music readers could ignore the shapes more easily" This reminds me of the (very) old joke about television (It's amazing! if you close your eyes you could swear you were listening to the radio.) As they say in German: "warum einfach, wenn's auch kompliziert geht?" < whereas to use the shapes as they were intended you have to have been trained in that system and nothing else. Hmm Great music, shame about the notation! Thanks for the Wikilink. I will explore. C -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Off-topic request for Hymnbook
I'm afraid I can't help here, but I have a related query. Can anyone explain the significance, if any, of the shapes? c >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Philip Gruar >Sent: Monday, January 10, 2011 2:37 PM >To: Dartmouth NPS >Subject: [NSP] Off-topic request for Hymnbook > >This is way off-topic for NSP's, but given the wide musical >interests of >many list members, I thought I'd give it a try - >I'm interested in getting a copy of The Sacred Harp hymnbook - >or possibly >other shapenote books. I know the 1860 edition of Sacred Harp >is available >online, in the Michegan State University digital collections, >and I also >know I could order a copy of the current edition direct from >the publishers >in the USA, but does anyone know if I can buy a copy here in the UK? > >Specifically, I'd like to find the music for Sacred Harp no.198 "Green >Street" to the words "All Hail the Power of Jesus' Name" - >ideally this >week! >That tune is not in the online edition (or if it is, I can't >find it there) > >I'm sure there must be someone reading this list who knows >this repertoire >well (and for anyone who doesn't, check it out on YouTube - >it's amazing) - >if so, and if you can send me a scan of it, please contact me >off list and >I'd be very grateful. >Thanks, >Philip > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: A 70 cent divergence
oops, sorry, of course. overhasty is my middle name ;-( c __ From: gibbonssoi...@aol.com [mailto:gibbonssoi...@aol.com] Sent: Sunday, January 09, 2011 2:12 PM To: BIRCH Christopher (DGT); a...@bcorkett.freeserve.co.uk Cc: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu Subject: Re: [NSP] Re: A 70 cent divergence 70>66.6... = 2/3 semitone = 1/3 tone. -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: A 70 cent divergence
> Adults with amusia Now then. >Does this describe an absence of any sense of humour? I would have thought rather an irrepressible sense of humour! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: A 70 cent divergence
More than a third of a tone in old money. er, semitone? c -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doublin' (Keenan & Glackin)
'Your pipes are more suitable for solo playing' perhaps? nice! -- To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
> out of tune drones (and this > unfortunately is the norm it seems to me) do little to enhance the > music. This is true even in the most surprising quarters i.e. modern > recordings where retakes could be done fairly easily to >correct this. I was starting to wonder whether I was the only person to have noticed this! It's my personal opinion that playing in tune (and in time) should be the prime consideration in all music-making. Only when these parameters are secure can one realistically move on to "higher things". C To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning
Nice one John! c >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Gibbons, John >Sent: Thursday, January 06, 2011 9:50 PM >To: Anthony Robb; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; rob@milecastle27.co.uk >Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning > >"Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most >important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I >would argue is the main purpose of traditional music." > >Pleasing everyone else in the room might be a priority for >some, as well! > >I have heard too many so-called traditional musicians play to >please themselves (and nobody else) not to add this health warning. >You get them everywhere, but I recall the bloke who wound his >flute up to E flat because that's the key Matt Molloy played in, >though everyone else in the session was in D, and the one who >played faster than everyone else because it was more exciting. >I've been the latter one myself on occasion > >Think about how it sounds for the rest of the world, and you >will play better. > >John > > > >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu [lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On >Behalf Of Anthony Robb [anth...@robbpipes.com] >Sent: 06 January 2011 18:19 >To: nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu; rob@milecastle27.co.uk >Subject: [NSP] Re: Concertina Tuning > > --- On Thu, 6/1/11, rob@milecastle27.co.uk >wrote: > It's a case of trying and seeing what you like. The other way round > this would be for the piper not to play drones ... but I wouldn't > recommend that approach. > cheers > Rob > Sorry to disagree, Rob, but occasionally switching the drones off to > let other instruments provide the accompaniment can be >lovely. I would > also recommend learning and practising mainly on the >chanter alone. It > is the way I was taught and was the Colin Caisley way >presumably passed > on from Tom Clough. When Colin Caisley was chairman of the >NPS in the > 60s the Society hired out a 'goose' (bellows, bag and >chanter only) for > people to try out the pipes. > Recently I came across an article, from the 70s I guess, written by > Paddy Maloney who suggests uillean pipers should learn on a >'goose' for > 3 to 4 years before thinking about getting drones. The premise being > that the chanter is where the music is created and so needs to be > learnt before adding drones or regulators. He also extols the beauty > and effectiveness of playing parts of a piece on solo >chanter only and > then adding accompaniment be it drones or other instruments >to lift the > sound. > On a slightly related topic, people have commented on how >well in tune > the 3 beginner pipers in Windy Gyle Band play on the CD and have > suggested that some digital trickery might be involved. This is > absolutely not the case. All three have learnt to play on >chanter only > and two of them are now (after 3 years) beginning to add drones > occasionally. > The drones can add excitement like nothing else to the >pipes sound but > they can also mask some of the music at times. So my >message would be > follow your ears, try all the options and go with what >works for you. > Others may not like it but at least you'll be pleasing the most > important person in this whole process, namely yourself. Which is I > would argue is the main purpose of traditional music. > Cheers > Anthony > --- On Thu, 6/1/11, rob@milecastle27.co.uk >wrote: > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > >References > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > > >
[NSP] Re: technique etcetera
When I first started David Burleigh kindly pointed me in the direction of the first four tunes in Derek Hobbs' Folk in Harmony, Book 1: Morag of Dunvegan Leaving Lismore Queen Mary Believe Me Highly recommended for beginners. C >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Anthony Robb >Sent: Wednesday, December 22, 2010 11:23 AM >To: NSP group >Subject: [NSP] Re: technique etcetera > > > Helen, > Good choice for a starter. > The beauty with that tune is it can be tried: a) as a very >free air, b) > steady waltz, c) faster "Circle Waltz", to keep interest up. > Cheers > Anthony > --- On Wed, 22/12/10, Helen Capes > wrote: > > From: Helen Capes > Subject: [NSP] Re: technique etcetera > To: "John Dally" , "NSP group" > > Date: Wednesday, 22 December, 2010, 7:50 > > Quote from Anthony Robb: > May I suggest picking one tune that really speaks to us but >isn't yet > inside us (this includes brain, heart and fingers) and >devote half our > practice time each week to that single tune for 1-6 months >(depending > on time allocated to practice and complexity of tune). > Which do you suggest? > The first tune I ever did this with was Crooked Bawbee, as >suggested by > Bill Hume. It worked well for me, I didn't get bored with it. > Helen > To get on or off this list see list information at > [1]http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > > -- > >References > > 1. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html > >
[NSP] Re: technique etcetera
> >The first tune I ever did this with was Crooked Bawbee, as >suggested by Bill >Hume. It worked well for me, I didn't get bored with it. >Helen Yup, great tune and one that like even the way I play it myself. It's a healthy exercise on the tightrope between beauty and sentimentality/kitsch - and I mean this in a positive, not sarcastic, sense. You can get away with a few slurs too ;- I think the meatiest I've ever got into in a big way is Jackie Layton (variations) - a bit of everything in there to keep you busy for a good while. Csírz To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Anthony Robb
> two best instruments in the world. You forgot the viols! >I have always been moved by music and it affects me often at a > physical level. Not just bringing me to tears when it is >beautiful but > also hurting when it's not right. I can sympathise with this. Personally, I find bad tuning particularly painful, which is one of the reasons I particularly love Aunt Sally's playing and have big reservations about the high priest. ;-) c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
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[NSP] Re: Doubleday
Northumbrian pipes can do better than any other; that precise >delivery of detached notes with duration and silences perfectly timed. But unfortunately the obsession with detaching the notes sometimes lead to the durations and silences being somewhat random - thus destroying the rhythmic flow. This combined with poor intonation (and possibly cheap electronic echo effects, which I gather to my amazement would appear to be compatible with proper piping) can lead to a result that is unlistenable. I do not wish to be unkind or discourteous, but if the cap fits c To get on or off this list see list information at http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html
[NSP] Re: Doubleday
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[NSP] Re: How to play Northumbrian Smallpipes with Detached Fingering
It says Helen Fish at the end, so I assume it's Paul Rhodes ;-) >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Julia Say >Sent: Wednesday, November 24, 2010 10:05 AM >To: NSP group; Richard Evans >Subject: [NSP] Re: How to play Northumbrian Smallpipes with >Detached Fingering > >On 23 Nov 2010, Richard Evans wrote: > >> Excellent instructional video. >> I don't know who did this, but it's superb! > >I believe the perpetrator is either Helen Fish or Paul Rhodes. > >Julia > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Help please
The link from the rant to Gaughan's main page doesn't work. Somebody being clueless, I assume. c >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of Richard York >Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 10:41 AM >To: NSP group >Subject: [NSP] Re: Help please > > > Thanks, Ian, for this link. >Really useful, especially when it leads to Jakob Nielsen's >pages, where >I can feel virtuous about some bits my own site's design and >learn that >others need changing quite seriously! >Richard. > ><> >> When I have had problems like this I often go back and re-read and >> angryish rant from the great Scottish singer Dick Gaughan >which I came >> across when I first started setting up my own site. In >someways it is a >> bit dated (what is Netscape..?) but the underlying argument is >> solidfinding out how to write in basic html is better >than relying >> on proprietary web writing programs that can actually >work against you. >> >> >http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/w3c-wai-ig/2001JulSep/att-0 >200/rant.htm >> >> Ian >> >> >> >> > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
[NSP] Re: Help please
Bit over the top isn't it? And anyway the monkeys and their trypewriters (sic) are a fallacy. You'd long have exhausted the number of particles in the universe before you got close to having an infinite number of anything. Infinity is, er, big. c >-Original Message- >From: lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu >[mailto:lute-...@cs.dartmouth.edu] On Behalf Of A.J.Gilhooley >Sent: Wednesday, November 17, 2010 4:51 PM >To: Ian Lawther; nsp@cs.dartmouth.edu >Subject: [NSP] Re: Help please > >Ian, > >Thanks for posting the link to the Dick Gaughan article. It >is perhaps even >more relevant than ever in today's online world. Also worth a visit is >www.internetisshit.org, another discussion of style vs >content, the medium not >being the message and so on. For a longer read, Andrew >Keene's "The Cult of >the Amateur" is also interesting, and available from Amazon. > >All the best, > >Andrew Gilhooley > > > > >To get on or off this list see list information at >http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/~wbc/lute-admin/index.html >
