Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Kevin Vigouroux via ntg-context]

Here is an example to clarify my previous comment.

#+BEGIN_SRC xml
  

  

  

  reviewed


  translated

  
  

  Bonjour

  


  Hello
  Bonjour

  

  
#+END_SRC 
-- 
Best regards,
Kevin Vigouroux
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Kevin Vigouroux via ntg-context]

I am not a translator but I think that working from XLIFF documents
would make the translation a bit easier.

XLIFF makes it possible to follow the translation process, at least
partially.

For example, if the translation tools implement the "Change Tracking
Extension" module defined in the latest XLIFF specification (v2.1), you
can track the status of elements. The "property" attribute can indicate
a new level: for example, the translator who changed the "state" (XLIFF
attribute) of the translation: initial, translated, reviewed, final.

[1] https://www.oasis-open.org/committees/tc_home.php?wg_abbrev=xliff
[2] http://docs.oasis-open.org/xliff/xliff-core/v2.1/xliff-core-v2.1.pdf

Unfortunately, translators would need to use translation tools based on
the latest XLIFF specification (v2) to take advantage of this. However,
someone will eventually be able to use the tools at their disposal.

Garulfo  writes:

> Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation
> translation project with git ?".
> One requirement will probably to define how propositions are
> officially validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git
> ? Can we just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will
> update with a single git command ?
-- 
Best regards,
Kevin Vigouroux
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Ivan Pešić]

One nice tool that I use for translation is
https://po4a.org/index.php.en

I used it to translate (and maintain) complete Vim documentation.

It could be adapted to work with Context (there is already a Latex module)

Regards,
Ivan

сре, 6. јан 2021. 12:56  је написао/ла:

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> Today's Topics:
>
>1. Re: A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV
>   (Bruce Horrocks)
>2. Re: A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV
>   (Joaquín Ataz López)
>3. Re: A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV
>   (Augusto Stoffel)
>4. Re: Randomize order of blocks (Otared Kavian)
>5. Re: Randomize order of blocks (Otared Kavian)
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: Bruce Horrocks 
> To: "ntg-context@ntg.nl" 
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 00:36:23 +
> Subject: Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV
>
>
> > On 5 Jan 2021, at 20:31, Garulfo  wrote:
> >
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I saw that Mojca created a directory
> > https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context
> >
> > Joaquín, if you agree, and if
> > - you provide me with the spanish + english source codes
> > - Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)
> >
> > i could :
> > 1/ push the current code
> > 2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to
> describe :
> > - for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source)
> > - for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list
> for discussion.
> >
> > Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation
> translation project with git ?".
> > One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially
> validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we just
> work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with a single
> git command ?
>
> I think we need to be really clear about what we want to achieve here.
>
> 1) Is it just making the source plus the PDF available for download? If so
> then there are plenty of simpler ways to do that than using Git.
>
> 2) If it is to gather feedback on things like typos then we don't need
> Git. For example I spotted a missing ']' in the English translation so all
> I need is a way to submit a 'bug report' not access to the source.
>
> 3) So what is left? To provide a way for translators to be notified of
> changes to the original? To provide a collaboration mechanism for
> significant changes to the document?
>
> I don't see that Git adds much in the way of value unless Joaquín and the
> translators are already very familiar with it -- because the learning curve
> is very steep and recovering from mistakes (made to the repository itself
> rather than to the document content) can sometimes be extremely difficult.
>
> --
> Bruce Horrocks
> Hampshire, UK
>
>
>
>
>
> -- Forwarded message --
> From: "Joaquín Ataz López" 
> To: ntg-context@ntg.nl
> Cc:
> Bcc:
> Date: Wed, 6 Jan 2021 06:26:34 +0100
> Subject: Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV
> I don't really know anything about git, so I can't give my opinion about
> what is or isn't convenient to do. Certainly to report bugs in my text I
> don't think it takes anything more than an e-mail to send them to me.
> Having a repository can be useful to keep a version that is always up to
> date; but that, on the other hand, would force me to be continually
> modifying the text, which in principle is not my intention. I do not
> exclude that there will be other versions in the future, but for the
> moment this is not part of my plans. And if there were other versions,
> it would be more to add some chapter; mainly I think that the most
> important material that is missing is the one related to XML, Lua and
> Metapost, that is: the three additional languages in which a ConTeXt
> document can be written. But I am far from being able to write anything
> about any of those three aspects. Some member of the list has offered to
> help me with it, but 

Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Robert Zydenbos]

Thank you, Joaquin, for this wonderfully systematic bit of work. I wish I had 
had this three or four years ago.

There has been a bit of a discussion here about whether ConTeXt manuals should 
start from the assumption that the reader already is familiar with LaTeX or 
not. If I may cast a vote here: I recommend that authors *SHOULD NOT* assume 
such familiarity, because

(1) Knowledge of LaTeX is not just irrelevant, but can actually confuse.

(2) ConTeXt is a complete system in itself that is built up in a more 
consistent way than LaTeX. It does not depend on LaTeX in any way, and authors 
should not risk creating the impression that it does.

Of course there’s nothing wrong if someone were to write parallel materials for 
LaTeX users (‘ConTeXt for LaTeX Users’, or something of the sort). But 
basically LaTeX ought to be ignored completely. I, for one, do not want to have 
anything to do with LaTeX any more, now that ConTeXt is there.

Now that this new manual exists, I can more confidently recommend ConTeXt to 
colleagues.

Thanks once again!

Robert

On 03.01.21 10:45, Joaquín Ataz López wrote:

Hello to all:

Two months ago I informed to the list […]


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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/5/2021 9:31 PM, Garulfo wrote:

Hi all,

I saw that Mojca created a directory
https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context

Joaquín, if you agree, and if
- you provide me with the spanish + english source codes
- Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)

i could :
1/ push the current code
2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to 
describe :

- for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source)
- for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list 
for discussion.


Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation 
translation project with git ?".
One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially 
validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we 
just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with 
a single git command ?
It's mainly about archiving, right? Those who write and maintain decide 
to use the repos in whatever way. (Personally I only use the gardens git 
repos for archiving and occasionally just watching what got changed. I 
don't even know (or care) how to fetch a specific version other than the 
latest right now.


Hans


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Augusto Stoffel]

Hi Joaquín,

Here is a small suggestion, which would have a few different uses. The 
following link, which I copied from the index, should take you to the 
definition of \vbox:


https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf#%5B%7B%22num%22%3A117%2C%22gen%22%3A0%7D%2C%7B%22name%22%3A%22Fit%22%7D%5D

This works at least in some browsers, or by passing the stuff after # 
as a suitable command-line argument to some PDF viewers.


So, it would be really nice to make those named destinations stable and 
readable, for instance


https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf#vbox

I suspect this is either a switch you turn on in ConTeXt, or something 
that would still need to be implemented as a feature.


Best,
Augusto

On Mon, Jan 4, 2021 at 12:00 AM Henning Hraban Ramm  
wrote:


 > Am 03.01.2021 um 22:24 schrieb Hans Hagen :
 >
 > On 1/3/2021 10:02 PM, BPJ wrote:
 >> I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if 
there already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of 
TeX and general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.
 > I think this relates to the question how someone comes to tex and 
then to context. Are tex macro packages used alongside and such? Are 
there 'from word/office to tex' or reverse manuals? What could be a 
motivation to write one.


 I guess most ConTeXt users migrated from LaTeX at some point, so 
that guide would really make sense. But I can’t write it either, 
even if I’m also working with LaTeX (but just as a user of one 
special class).


 If I run into a problem in LaTeX that I know to solve in ConTeXt, 
the approach is never right.


 I think the similarities of LaTeX and ConTeXt are mostly misleading, 
you’re better off trying to forget everything and start anew.


 In LaTeX most problems are solved with “use this or that 
package”, without the need to understand the commands and settings 
involved, while in ConTeXt most problems are solved with 
\setupsomething[somekey=somevalue].


 Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re 
not supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was 
much more usual in ConTeXt.


 Writing my book I have users of text processors (Word/LibreOffice) 
and layout applications (InDesign etc.) in mind, even if I assume 
that most readers (if I’ll ever publish it...) will come from LaTeX.




 > So, one way out could be to have some collection of tips / 
suggestions and turn that into a kind of manual. Something to do by 
those who make some transition or use alongside. The wiki is the 
place start with that.

 >
 > So .. up to users.

 Yes, and that means: up to users migrating from LaTeX and 
documenting their struggles.


 Hraban
 
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Joaquín Ataz López]

I don't really know anything about git, so I can't give my opinion about 
what is or isn't convenient to do. Certainly to report bugs in my text I 
don't think it takes anything more than an e-mail to send them to me. 
Having a repository can be useful to keep a version that is always up to 
date; but that, on the other hand, would force me to be continually 
modifying the text, which in principle is not my intention. I do not 
exclude that there will be other versions in the future, but for the 
moment this is not part of my plans. And if there were other versions, 
it would be more to add some chapter; mainly I think that the most 
important material that is missing is the one related to XML, Lua and 
Metapost, that is: the three additional languages in which a ConTeXt 
document can be written. But I am far from being able to write anything 
about any of those three aspects. Some member of the list has offered to 
help me with it, but not immediately (we all have a lot of work).


The original idea, I think, was to provide a platform that would allow 
different collaborators to translate the text into different languages. 
Whether or not git is the best solution for that purpose, I really don't 
know.


What I would appreciate is that guide on "how to set up a documentation 
translation project with git? that Garulfo proposes.


El 5/1/21 a las 21:31, Garulfo escribió:

Hi all,

I saw that Mojca created a directory
https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context

Joaquín, if you agree, and if
- you provide me with the spanish + english source codes
- Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)

i could :
1/ push the current code
2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to 
describe :

- for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source)
- for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list 
for discussion.


Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation 
translation project with git ?".
One requirement will probably to define how propositions are 
officially validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git 
? Can we just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will 
update with a single git command ?








Le 03/01/2021 à 19:08, Hans Hagen a écrit :

On 1/3/2021 5:42 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:


In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab 
repository (or
even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it 
into

other languages:
https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html


If you want to see it under
 https://github.com/contextgarden/
just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who
should initially have access.
also because that would fit well into the plans for a bunch of 
context related repositories


Hans

-
   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
   Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
    tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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--
Joaquín Ataz López
Derecho Civil
Universidad de Murcia

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Bruce Horrocks]

> On 5 Jan 2021, at 20:31, Garulfo  wrote:
> 
> Hi all,
> 
> I saw that Mojca created a directory
> https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context
> 
> Joaquín, if you agree, and if
> - you provide me with the spanish + english source codes
> - Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)
> 
> i could :
> 1/ push the current code
> 2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to describe :
> - for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source)
> - for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list for 
> discussion.
> 
> Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation translation 
> project with git ?".
> One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially 
> validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we just 
> work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with a single 
> git command ?

I think we need to be really clear about what we want to achieve here.

1) Is it just making the source plus the PDF available for download? If so then 
there are plenty of simpler ways to do that than using Git.

2) If it is to gather feedback on things like typos then we don't need Git. For 
example I spotted a missing ']' in the English translation so all I need is a 
way to submit a 'bug report' not access to the source.

3) So what is left? To provide a way for translators to be notified of changes 
to the original? To provide a collaboration mechanism for significant changes 
to the document?

I don't see that Git adds much in the way of value unless Joaquín and the 
translators are already very familiar with it -- because the learning curve is 
very steep and recovering from mistakes (made to the repository itself rather 
than to the document content) can sometimes be extremely difficult.

--
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Garulfo]

Hi all,

I saw that Mojca created a directory
https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context

Joaquín, if you agree, and if
- you provide me with the spanish + english source codes
- Mojca provide you and me with github write access (garulfogb account)

i could :
1/ push the current code
2/ start to write a github wiki page (+ link on contextgarden) to describe :
- for you : how to update from your own computer (the official source)
- for any user : how to use git to get the source + link to this list 
for discussion.


Does anybody has a guide about "how to set up a documentation 
translation project with git ?".
One requirement will probably to define how propositions are officially 
validated. Does it requires Joaquín to learn how to use git ? Can we 
just work by sending files (or patches) to Joaquín who will update with 
a single git command ?








Le 03/01/2021 à 19:08, Hans Hagen a écrit :

On 1/3/2021 5:42 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:


In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or
even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into
other languages:
https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html


If you want to see it under
 https://github.com/contextgarden/
just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who
should initially have access.
also because that would fit well into the plans for a bunch of context 
related repositories


Hans

-
   Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
   Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
    tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/4/2021 5:32 PM, Joaquín Ataz López wrote:



Really? I wouldn't see it this way. I wondered a bit about the
number of primitives shown in the document of Joaquín, but that they
are used certainly doesn't make context like plaintex.


I have calculated the number of primitives from the list made in "TeX 
Reference Manual" by David Bausum (of which there is a web version at 
https://www.tug.org/utilities/plain/cseq.html).


According to that text the number of primitives is exactly 326. In my 
document I rounded it to "approximately 300".
That list is a bit old. In the meantime we got etex extensions, which 
adds a few more, and then pdftex ades some, as well as omega and after 
that of course luatex. In luametatex we dropped some, and added others, 
so there we currently have 770 primitives. The increase of number is 
partly due to the 166 extra math related primitives of which many deal 
with all kind of font related paraneters and inter-blob spacing.


\starttext

\startTEXpage[offset=2mm,width=30cm,align={verytolerant,nothyphenated,flushleft},foregroundstyle=\tttf]
\startluacode
local t = tex.primitives()
table.sort(t)
local n = 0
for i=1,#t do
if string.find(t[i],"^U") then
n =n + 1
end
end
context("%i / %i: % t",#t,n,t)
\stopluacode
\stopTEXpage

\stoptext

if yuou want to know if something is a primitive, say:

\meaningfull\vskip \par
\meaningfull\relax \par
\meaningfull\framed\par

and you get an idea (\meaningfull itself is a primitive, the more 
verbose \meaning, and there's also \meaningless which I let you figure 
out yourself; of course these add two primitives to the repertoire).


Hans


-
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   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Aditya Mahajan]

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021, Joaquín Ataz López wrote:

> Hello to all:
> 
> Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction 
> in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in 
> order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list 
> (native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.
> 
> It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at 
> all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the 
> fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
> 
> As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the 
> Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read 
> it in its original language can download the new version:
> 
> Both versions are available at the following links
> 
> - Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf
> 
> - Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf
> 
> Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the 
> documentation section of the CTAN repository.

This is an excellent and detailed introduction. I had briefly skimmed through 
the Spanish version when you had posted it earlier, but since I do not 
understand Spanish I could not follow it. Now have quickly read some parts of 
the English version, I find that the document is very well written and at the 
right level of detail and tone for a new user. Thank you for writing this. 

Aditya___
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Joaquín Ataz López]

Really? I wouldn't see it this way. I wondered a bit about the
number of primitives shown in the document of Joaquín, but that they
are used certainly doesn't make context like plaintex.


I have calculated the number of primitives from the list made in "TeX 
Reference Manual" by David Bausum (of which there is a web version at 
https://www.tug.org/utilities/plain/cseq.html).


According to that text the number of primitives is exactly 326. In my 
document I rounded it to "approximately 300".



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Derecho Civil
Universidad de Murcia

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 04.01.2021 um 14:18 schrieb Ulrike Fischer :
> 
> Am Sun, 3 Jan 2021 23:59:14 +0100 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm:
> 
>> In LaTeX most problems are solved with “use this or that package”,
> 
> You only need to follow a few days the questions e.g. on tex.sx to
> see that this is not true: Answers about LaTeX are much more varied
> than a simple "use this package" and often include new definitions
> or background explanations.

Yes, sorry, that was overly simplified.

Yes, there are many knowledgeable and helpful LaTeX users who throughly explain 
their suggestions.

But when I’m looking for LaTeX solutions, it very often breaks down to using 
the one or other package (with a few options or configurations provided by 
them).

>> without the need to understand the commands and settings
>> involved,
> 
> The fact that there are so many packages extending LaTeX actually
> means that there is *more* need to understand commands and settings
> than in a system like context where "most problems are solved with
> \setupsomething[somekey=somevalue]". 
> 
> (But it also means that there are many people, who understand enough
> of the innards to write, to document and to explain packages,
> commands and settings.)

Yes, but it’s in the concept of LaTeX that there is a gap between users and 
package writers.

I prefer to copy a few settings (and adapt them to my needs) over using a 
package that might do also other things or is incompatible with some other 
packages that I might need.

>> Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not
>> supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was
>> much more usual in ConTeXt.
> 
> Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users
> trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus
> cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.  

The discouragement sometimes sounds a bit harsh ;) – not your problem.

There are a few old ConTeXt users that use too much basic ("plain") TeX for my 
taste, esp. if there are better ways to solve their problems with simple 
ConTeXt commands.

All the best,
Hraban

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 04.01.2021 um 15:30 schrieb Hans Hagen :
> 
> On 1/4/2021 2:18 PM, Ulrike Fischer wrote:
> 
>>> Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not
>>> supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was
>>> much more usual in ConTeXt.
>> Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users
>> trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus
>> cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.
> Hm, \hskip is not a plain command but a language primitive. And there's 
> nothing wrong with using primitives, assuming that one knows how they work 
> (and in this case that a \relax does wonders).
> 
> One of those 'persistent' wrong ideas about context is that it somehow is 
> kind of plain but decided to not waste time arguing that. There are actually 
> not that many commands in 'plain' anyway. Much of plain tex is setting up 
> math (and all macro packages support those symbolic names and the basic math 
> structures), some fonts (all macro package set up some font system and maybe 
> some aliases that make it easier for plain users),
> but as soon as one uses latex or context or ... some different output routine 
> kicks in, table mechanisms show up, \item has a different meaning, etc. (The 
> early macro packages were kind of plain themselves: demanding redefinition of 
> internals and such.)

I don’t know anything about Knuth’s Plain TeX, I always mean plain TeX. ;)
And I mix up primitives and "basic" commands, because it doesn’t matter for me.
My mistake.

What I meant: In ConTeXt code (by users and maybe only in old sources) I see a 
lot of TeX constructs, e.g. you’re using \def (TeX) and not \define (ConTeXt) 
because you know it makes no difference.

And when I can’t achieve the right vertical spacing with \blank[something], I 
use \vskip, because it works.

LaTeX replaces many basic commands/primitives (\vskip -> \vspace), ConTeXt 
might too, but with the same name.

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Mon, 4 Jan 2021 15:30:43 +0100 schrieb Hans Hagen:

>> Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users
>> trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus
>> cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.
> Hm, \hskip is not a plain command but a language primitive.

Yes, sorry. I lost the "TeX" from  the "(plain) TeX commands" from
Henning.

> One of those 'persistent' wrong ideas about context is that it somehow 
> is kind of plain 

Really? I wouldn't see it this way. I wondered a bit about the
number of primitives shown in the document of Joaquín, but that they
are used certainly doesn't make context like plaintex. 

-- 
Ulrike Fischer 
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/4/2021 2:18 PM, Ulrike Fischer wrote:


Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not
supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was
much more usual in ConTeXt.


Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users
trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus
cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.
Hm, \hskip is not a plain command but a language primitive. And there's 
nothing wrong with using primitives, assuming that one knows how they 
work (and in this case that a \relax does wonders).


One of those 'persistent' wrong ideas about context is that it somehow 
is kind of plain but decided to not waste time arguing that. There are 
actually not that many commands in 'plain' anyway. Much of plain tex is 
setting up math (and all macro packages support those symbolic names and 
the basic math structures), some fonts (all macro package set up some 
font system and maybe some aliases that make it easier for plain users),
but as soon as one uses latex or context or ... some different output 
routine kicks in, table mechanisms show up, \item has a different 
meaning, etc. (The early macro packages were kind of plain themselves: 
demanding redefinition of internals and such.)


Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Ulrike Fischer]

Am Sun, 3 Jan 2021 23:59:14 +0100 schrieb Henning Hraban Ramm:

> In LaTeX most problems are solved with “use this or that package”,

You only need to follow a few days the questions e.g. on tex.sx to
see that this is not true: Answers about LaTeX are much more varied
than a simple "use this package" and often include new definitions
or background explanations.

> without the need to understand the commands and settings
> involved,

The fact that there are so many packages extending LaTeX actually
means that there is *more* need to understand commands and settings
than in a system like context where "most problems are solved with
\setupsomething[somekey=somevalue]". 

(But it also means that there are many people, who understand enough
of the innards to write, to document and to explain packages,
commands and settings.)



> Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not
> supposed to use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was
> much more usual in ConTeXt.

Well we discourage the use of plain commands to avoid that new users
trip over bewildering errors from stuff like "abc \hskip 2cm plus
cde", but it is not forbidden to use them.  


-- 
Ulrike Fischer 
http://www.troubleshooting-tex.de/

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Henning Hraban Ramm]

> Am 03.01.2021 um 22:24 schrieb Hans Hagen :
> 
> On 1/3/2021 10:02 PM, BPJ wrote:
>> I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if there 
>> already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and 
>> general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.
> I think this relates to the question how someone comes to tex and then to 
> context. Are tex macro packages used alongside and such? Are there 'from 
> word/office to tex' or reverse manuals? What could be a motivation to write 
> one.

I guess most ConTeXt users migrated from LaTeX at some point, so that guide 
would really make sense. But I can’t write it either, even if I’m also working 
with LaTeX (but just as a user of one special class).

If I run into a problem in LaTeX that I know to solve in ConTeXt, the approach 
is never right.

I think the similarities of LaTeX and ConTeXt are mostly misleading, you’re 
better off trying to forget everything and start anew.

In LaTeX most problems are solved with “use this or that package”, without the 
need to understand the commands and settings involved, while in ConTeXt most 
problems are solved with \setupsomething[somekey=somevalue].

Of course it helps to understand basic TeX stuff – but you’re not supposed to 
use (plain) TeX commands in LaTeX, while it is or was much more usual in 
ConTeXt.

Writing my book I have users of text processors (Word/LibreOffice) and layout 
applications (InDesign etc.) in mind, even if I assume that most readers (if 
I’ll ever publish it...) will come from LaTeX.



> So, one way out could be to have some collection of tips / suggestions and 
> turn that into a kind of manual. Something to do by those who make some 
> transition or use alongside. The wiki is the place start with that.
> 
> So .. up to users.

Yes, and that means: up to users migrating from LaTeX and documenting their 
struggles.

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/3/2021 10:02 PM, BPJ wrote:
I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if there 
already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and 
general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.
I think this relates to the question how someone comes to tex and then 
to context. Are tex macro packages used alongside and such? Are there 
'from word/office to tex' or reverse manuals? What could be a motivation 
to write one.


So, one way out could be to have some collection of tips / suggestions 
and turn that into a kind of manual. Something to do by those who make 
some transition or use alongside. The wiki is the place start with that.


So .. up to users.

Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[denis.maier]

Thanks, Joaquín. This is really amazing.

Denis

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: ntg-context  Im Auftrag von Joaquín
> Ataz López
> Gesendet: Sonntag, 3. Januar 2021 10:45
> An: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
> Betreff: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV
> 
> Hello to all:
> 
> Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction in
> Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in order to
> increase their potential audience, a member of this list (native English
> speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.
> 
> It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at all, but 
> it
> can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the fascinating
> typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
> 
> As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the Spanish
> version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read it in its
> original language can download the new version:
> 
> Both versions are available at the following links
> 
> - Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf
> 
> - Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf
> 
> Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the documentation
> section of the CTAN repository.
> 
> 
> --
> Joaquín Ataz López
> Derecho Civil
> Universidad de Murcia
> 
> __
> _
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-
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> _
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/3/2021 10:11 PM, denis.ma...@ub.unibe.ch wrote:

Well, there's a document called "LaTeX in proper context", but that's from a 
different era and nowhere near exhaustive...

and not that valid any more either i think

Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[denis.maier]

Well, there's a document called "LaTeX in proper context", but that's from a 
different era and nowhere near exhaustive...

Von: ntg-context  im Auftrag von BPJ 

Gesendet: Sonntag, 3. Januar 2021 22:02:22
An: mailing list for ConTeXt users
Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if there already 
is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and general 
knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.

--
Better --help|less than helpless

Den sön 3 jan. 2021 20:04Joaquín Ataz López mailto:j...@um.es>> 
skrev:

I do not know if I have been able to do this, but although there are some 
references to LaTeX, I have tried to write a totally independent text, which 
does not require knowledge of LaTeX or TeX to be understood.

El 3/1/21 a las 19:42, BPJ escribió:
This is a great resource which I am at the moment enjoying to read but I can't 
help wondering if there is a text aimed at those who already know LaTeX and 
know the basics of TeX describing ConTeXt in terms of differences (and 
similarities) between the two, and in particular the gotchas.

--
Better --help|less than helpless

Den sön 3 jan. 2021 10:48Joaquín Ataz López mailto:j...@um.es>> 
skrev:
Hello to all:

Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction
in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in
order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list
(native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.

It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at
all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the
fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.

As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the
Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read
it in its original language can download the new version:

Both versions are available at the following links

- Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf

- Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf

Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the
documentation section of the CTAN repository.


--
Joaquín Ataz López
Derecho Civil
Universidad de Murcia

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--
Joaquín Ataz López
Derecho Civil
Universidad de Murcia

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[BPJ]

I understand that and it is all well and good. I am wondering if there
already is *another* text which presupposes basic knowledge of TeX and
general knowledge of LaTeX, perhaps in a by-topic style.

-- 
Better --help|less than helpless

Den sön 3 jan. 2021 20:04Joaquín Ataz López  skrev:

> I do not know if I have been able to do this, but although there are some
> references to LaTeX, I have tried to write a totally independent text,
> which does not require knowledge of LaTeX or TeX to be understood.
> El 3/1/21 a las 19:42, BPJ escribió:
>
> This is a great resource which I am at the moment enjoying to read but I
> can't help wondering if there is a text aimed at those who already know
> LaTeX and know the basics of TeX describing ConTeXt in terms of differences
> (and similarities) between the two, and in particular the gotchas.
>
> --
> Better --help|less than helpless
>
> Den sön 3 jan. 2021 10:48Joaquín Ataz López  skrev:
>
>> Hello to all:
>>
>> Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction
>> in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in
>> order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list
>> (native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.
>>
>> It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at
>> all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the
>> fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
>>
>> As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the
>> Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read
>> it in its original language can download the new version:
>>
>> Both versions are available at the following links
>>
>> - Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf
>>
>> - Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf
>>
>> Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the
>> documentation section of the CTAN repository.
>>
>>
>> --
>> Joaquín Ataz López
>> Derecho Civil
>> Universidad de Murcia
>>
>>
>> ___
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>> the Wiki!
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>
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> Derecho Civil
> Universidad de Murcia
>
>
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Joaquín Ataz López]

I do not know if I have been able to do this, but although there are 
some references to LaTeX, I have tried to write a totally independent 
text, which does not require knowledge of LaTeX or TeX to be understood.


El 3/1/21 a las 19:42, BPJ escribió:
This is a great resource which I am at the moment enjoying to read but 
I can't help wondering if there is a text aimed at those who already 
know LaTeX and know the basics of TeX describing ConTeXt in terms of 
differences (and similarities) between the two, and in particular the 
gotchas.


--
Better --help|less than helpless

Den sön 3 jan. 2021 10:48Joaquín Ataz López > skrev:


Hello to all:

Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an
introduction
in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in
order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list
(native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into
English.

It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at
all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started
with the
fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.

As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the
Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to
read
it in its original language can download the new version:

Both versions are available at the following links

- Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf

- Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf

Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the
documentation section of the CTAN repository.


-- 
Joaquín Ataz López

Derecho Civil
Universidad de Murcia


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Joaquín Ataz López
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Universidad de Murcia

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Joaquín Ataz López]

I think the creation of the repository is a good idea and I suggest the 
name "introCTX-MkiV". I could provide the source files (in Spanish and 
English) and eventually clarify any doubt that the various translators 
had about the meaning of the original. It should also be taken into 
account that in the original there are some fragments or examples 
designed for a Spanish cultural field that, outside it, do not make much 
sense. In this regard, the English translation has the merit of adapting 
these fragments (instead of translating them) or deleting them, as the 
case may be.


What I don't think is to coordinate the repository: I have never worked 
on collective projects and I hardly know how github works



El 3/1/21 a las 17:42, Mojca Miklavec escribió:

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:

In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or
even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into
other languages:
https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html

If you want to see it under
 https://github.com/contextgarden/
just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who
should initially have access.

Mojca
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Derecho Civil
Universidad de Murcia

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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[BPJ]

This is a great resource which I am at the moment enjoying to read but I
can't help wondering if there is a text aimed at those who already know
LaTeX and know the basics of TeX describing ConTeXt in terms of differences
(and similarities) between the two, and in particular the gotchas.

-- 
Better --help|less than helpless

Den sön 3 jan. 2021 10:48Joaquín Ataz López  skrev:

> Hello to all:
>
> Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an introduction
> in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested several people, and in
> order to increase their potential audience, a member of this list
> (native English speaker) has proceeded to translate my text into English.
>
> It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at
> all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with the
> fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
>
> As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to the
> Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers to read
> it in its original language can download the new version:
>
> Both versions are available at the following links
>
> - Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf
>
> - Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf
>
> Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the
> documentation section of the CTAN repository.
>
>
> --
> Joaquín Ataz López
> Derecho Civil
> Universidad de Murcia
>
>
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to
> the Wiki!
>
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl /
> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
>
> ___
>
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Hans Hagen]

On 1/3/2021 5:42 PM, Mojca Miklavec wrote:

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:


In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or
even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into
other languages:
https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html


If you want to see it under
 https://github.com/contextgarden/
just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who
should initially have access.
also because that would fit well into the plans for a bunch of context 
related repositories


Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Mojca Miklavec]

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 at 15:37, Garulfo wrote:
>
> In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or
> even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into
> other languages:
> https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html

If you want to see it under
https://github.com/contextgarden/
just propose the repository name and list the usernames for those who
should initially have access.

Mojca
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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Garulfo]

@Joaquín + english translator : many thanks for this great and useful 
contribution to ConTeXt community dev. Impressive.


Being interested into contributing to a french version, what would be 
your prefered way ?


In oct 2020, a message proposed to create a GitHub/GitLab repository (or 
even organization) for this so that anybody can help translating it into 
other languages:

https://mailman.ntg.nl/pipermail/ntg-context/2020/099789.html




Le 03/01/2021 à 11:32, Saša Janiška a écrit :

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:45:00 +0100
Joaquín Ataz López  wrote:

Hiya Joaquín,


It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at
all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with
the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.


Well, I'm the one who (desperately) need it and I'm delighted. :-D

Thanks a lot for providing such a wonderful "introduction" popularizing 
ConTeXt!!


Sincerely,
Gour



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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Alain Delmotte]

  
  
Thanks Joaquín!
I tried the spanish version but it was
too hard.
Best wishes to all for 2021!
Alain
Le 3/01/2021 à 10:45, Joaquín Ataz
  López a écrit :

Hello to
  all:
  
  
  Two months ago I informed to the list that I had written an
  introduction in Spanish to ConTeXt Mark IV. This interested
  several people, and in order to increase their potential audience,
  a member of this list (native English speaker) has proceeded to
  translate my text into English.
  
  
  It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction
  at all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started
  with the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.
  
  
  As for the English translation, I have made some small changes to
  the Spanish version, so anyone who understands Spanish and prefers
  to read it in its original language can download the new version:
  
  
  Both versions are available at the following links
  
  
  - Spanish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_esp.pdf
  
  
  - Engilish: https://webs.um.es/jal/docs/introCTX_eng.pdf
  
  
  Soon I will send both texts, with their source files, to the
  documentation section of the CTAN repository.
  
  
  

  


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Re: [NTG-context] A not so short introduction to ConTeXt Mark IV

[Saša Janiška]

On Sun, 3 Jan 2021 10:45:00 +0100
Joaquín Ataz López  wrote:

Hiya Joaquín,

> It is precisely the members of this list who need no introduction at 
> all, but it can sometimes be useful to help someone get started with
> the fascinating typesetting system that is ConTeXt.

Well, I'm the one who (desperately) need it and I'm delighted. :-D

Thanks a lot for providing such a wonderful "introduction" popularizing 
ConTeXt!!


Sincerely,
Gour


-- 
Just try to learn the truth by approaching a spiritual master.
Inquire from him submissively and render service unto him.
The self-realized souls can impart knowledge unto you because
they have seen the truth.


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