Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 08:06:14PM +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> I can add sanskit patterns to the distribution but I wonder: how does this
> interact with reordering in fonts? Do we need to postpone hyphenation till
> after reordering?

  If you mean glyph reordering in Indic scripts, it should happen later
than hyphenation; it’s no different than ligatures in Latin in that
respect.  But I don’t know how it is implemented in ConTeXt ...
The existing patterns don’t hyphenate any reordering sign (or indeed any
dependent vowel sign).  If they do, it’s a bug and we need to fix it :-)

  Note that Jürgen mentioned Latin transliteration where glyph
reordering is not an issue (but ligatures of course are).

Best,

Arthur
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few 
lines. The concept of

    "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

    What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language 
Sanskrit that hyphenates
    after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, 
ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
    last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in 
the original script). Of
    course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so 
we need to be able to insert

    a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

    I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation 
also arises when a variant
    is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance 
in critical editions.
I can add sanskit patterns to the distribution but I wonder: how does 
this interact with reordering in fonts? Do we need to postpone 
hyphenation till after reordering?


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context]

On Mon, Jan 10, 2022 at 02:31:53PM +0100, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context 
wrote:
> Yves Codet (Assistant Professor at Toulouse University, member of CRAPA an
> institutional public research in Humanities in South of France) is involved
> in TeX patterns for Greek and Indic languages. He is a translator of Indian
> theater pieces (among other things).

  Yes, the GitHub repository I linked to contains the up-to-date version
of Yves’ Sanskrit patterns (latest substantive revision September 2011).
They support Latin transliteration and a number of modern Indic scripts,
but not Brahmi, which I’m sure he’ll be happy to add if there’s a need.
Yves has not as far as I know been involved in the development of
hyphenation patterns for Greek (whether Ancient or Modern).

Best,

Arthur
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Thank you very much Arthur !

Yves Codet (Assistant Professor at Toulouse University, member of CRAPA 
an institutional public research in Humanities in South of France) is 
involved in TeX patterns for Greek and Indic languages. He is a 
translator of Indian theater pieces (among other things).


See there : https://ctan.org/tex-archive/macros/xetex/hyphenation/sanhyph

And his involvement in the discussion about Devanagari romanisation for 
translitteration and/or specific UTF8 specification in order to respect 
Devanagari and Brahmi hyphenation with XeTeX.


https://tug.org/pipermail/xetex/2008-October/010904.html

Le 10/01/2022 à 12:26, Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context a écrit :

On Sun, Jan 09, 2022 at 11:46:44PM +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few
lines. The concept of
     "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

     What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language
Sanskrit that hyphenates
     after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i,
ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
     last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in
the original script). Of
     course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so
we need to be able to insert
     a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

     I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation
also arises when a variant
     is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance
in critical editions.

hypenation ... so no patterns, just injecting discretionaries after specific
vowels ... doable but it has to happen a some specific moment because when
language bound it's too soon, and the font handler does some reshuffling; it
can probabloy best be done after fonts have been done ... given specs a
typical rainy weekend activity

   There are patterns, that implement almost exactly the kind of
automatic hyphenation Jürgen describes (see
https://github.com/hyphenation/tex-hyphen/blob/master/hyph-utf8/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph-sa.tex#L50L134).
They’re just not in the ConTeXt distribution ...

Arthur
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--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients
Professeur Agrégé de Philosophie (HC)

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Arthur Rosendahl via ntg-context]

On Sun, Jan 09, 2022 at 11:46:44PM +0100, Hans Hagen via ntg-context wrote:
> On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
>> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few
>> lines. The concept of
>>     "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
>> 
>>     What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language
>> Sanskrit that hyphenates
>>     after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i,
>> ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>>     last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in
>> the original script). Of
>>     course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so
>> we need to be able to insert
>>     a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
>> 
>>     I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation
>> also arises when a variant
>>     is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance
>> in critical editions.
>
> hypenation ... so no patterns, just injecting discretionaries after specific
> vowels ... doable but it has to happen a some specific moment because when
> language bound it's too soon, and the font handler does some reshuffling; it
> can probabloy best be done after fonts have been done ... given specs a
> typical rainy weekend activity

  There are patterns, that implement almost exactly the kind of
automatic hyphenation Jürgen describes (see
https://github.com/hyphenation/tex-hyphen/blob/master/hyph-utf8/tex/generic/hyph-utf8/patterns/tex/hyph-sa.tex#L50L134).
They’re just not in the ConTeXt distribution ...

Arthur
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few 
lines. The concept of

    "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

    What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language 
Sanskrit that hyphenates
    after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, 
ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
    last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in 
the original script). Of
    course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so 
we need to be able to insert

    a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

    I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation 
also arises when a variant
    is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance 
in critical editions.

two things here:

transliterations ... do we need a mechanism for that ? latin in -> 
something else out (if so i need specs)


hypenation ... so no patterns, just injecting discretionaries after 
specific vowels ... doable but it has to happen a some specific moment 
because when language bound it's too soon, and the font handler does 
some reshuffling; it can probabloy best be done after fonts have been 
done ... given specs a typical rainy weekend activity


Hans


-
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This 
is more a lamentation, not

    much one can do about it, I guess).

    When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as 
a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
    but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime 
Sanskritists had to search for new
    fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I 
spent a lot of time with
    OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an 
otf font has the underdot
    characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial 
fonts, I found only one
    "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like 
Minion, for instance, but the

    latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.

    Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still 
work, but many entries in

    the TeX Font Catalogue do not!

Because minion has no bottom accent ... in a next version you can try this:

\starttext

\definefontfeature[default][default][fakecombining=yes,compose=yes]

\setupbodyfont[minion]

[x][\char"2D9][x][\char"323] ṭḍṃḥ

\stoptext

there are more such accents but i have no time not to collect them 
(maybe we need a mechanism for missing / patching characters in lfg 
files like we have for math) because in the end 'generic' heuristics 
might fails us


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/9/2022 11:23 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

    Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still 
work, but many entries in

    the TeX Font Catalogue do not!


It's often not that bad when you use context ...

% \enabletrackers[*comp*]

\definefontfeature[default][default][compose=yes]

\starttext
ṥ
\stoptext

this feature has been there quite from the start of mkiv because 
otherwise mojca couldn't deal with her language


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Robert via ntg-context]

Dear list,

I am currently working on a critical edition as well, and follow the discussion 
with interest. For the time being, I prefer Latex over Context for this project.

In addition to Jürgen's remarks on transcription fonts, a small contribution:

Arabists and turcologists working with transcriptions used to have similar 
problems. In the nineties I adapted existing postscript fonts with 
Fontographer. I also made sure to copy kerning information from extant letters 
(e.g. a) to new ones (e.g. ā) with the required diacritic (usually dots, dashes 
and haceks). This was in the pre-unicode era.

Today there is the Brill font which is quite extended, yet I am not sure if it 
can be used freely in other publications.

Adapations to extant fonts can still be made with the open source app 
FontForge. Do not hesitate to contact me offline if you need help on this.

Regards,

Robert

i...@mo-perspectief.nl


> Op 9 jan. 2022, om 11:23 heeft hanneder--- via ntg-context 
>  het volgende geschreven:
> 
> I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:
> 
>> They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari code 
>> for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.
> 
> Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that
> user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).
> 
> 
> Dear Hans,
> 
> two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they concern 
> hyphenation and
> font.
> 
> 1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a few 
> lines. The concept of
>   "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.
> 
>   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language Sanskrit 
> that hyphenates
>   after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i, ī, u, ū, 
> ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
>   last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in the 
> original script). Of
>   course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally, so we need 
> to be able to insert
>   a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.
> 
>   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled hyphenation also 
> arises when a variant
>   is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance in 
> critical editions.
> 
> 2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse. (This is 
> more a lamentation, not
>   much one can do about it, I guess).
> 
>   When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as a\d{t}av{\=\i}. 
> Not user friendly,
>   but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime Sanskritists had 
> to search for new
>   fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts (I spent a 
> lot of time with
>   OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether an otf 
> font has the underdot
>   characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial fonts, I 
> found only one
>   "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like Minion, 
> for instance, but the
>   latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.
> 
>   Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that still work, 
> but many entries in
>   the TeX Font Catalogue do not!
> 
> 
> Jürgen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de
> 
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

I was just writing a mail (below) and saw:

They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the  
devanagari code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized.


Fascinating. Where can I learn more about that or is that
user-unfriendly (my technical knowledge is rather limited).


Dear Hans,

two recurring problems are rather specifically Indological and they  
concern hyphenation and

font.

1. In Sanskrit prose it is possible to produce compounds that span a  
few lines. The concept of

   "word" or "word division" fails here, as are the TeX mechanisms.

   What we need in practice would be a "hyphenation" for the language  
Sanskrit that hyphenates
   after all Sanskrit vowels (in transcription this would be a, ā, i,  
ī, u, ū, ṛ, ḷ, e, o, ai, au. The
   last two cannot be split, "au" is one vowel with one vowel sign in  
the original script). Of
   course, we want to improve this automatic spelling occasionally,  
so we need to be able to insert

   a \- without thereby disabling the hyphenation for this compound.

   I think in critical editions the problem of the disabled  
hyphenation also arises when a variant
   is added inside a word. In any case hyphenation is a real nuisance  
in critical editions.


2. Fonts that contain all necessary diacritics have become sparse.  
(This is more a lamentation, not

   much one can do about it, I guess).

   When I started TeXing people were used to writing aṭavī as  
a\d{t}av{\=\i}. Not user friendly,
   but it worked with many fonts. With each new font regime  
Sanskritists had to search for new
   fonts, invent work-arounds etc. Even the most promising attempts  
(I spent a lot of time with
   OmegaTeX) eventually disappeared. Now we are dependent on whether  
an otf font has the underdot
   characters (ṭḍṃḥ) and the vowels (āīūṛ). Within the commercial  
fonts, I found only one
   "Brotschrift" that worked, which is Adobe Text Pro. I really like  
Minion, for instance, but the

   latest otf Version has no ṭ etc.

   Thank god, we have many TeX fonts derived from older ones that  
still work, but many entries in

   the TeX Font Catalogue do not!


Jürgen




---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[BPJ via ntg-context]

Den lör 8 jan. 2022 12:44Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> skrev:

> Luigi,
>
> Thank you for the link.
>
> Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research on
> Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the English
> philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead and the
> maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 .
>
Maybe that is why they talk about "special TeX fonts"? Surely today they
would use an engine which can use conventional Unicode fonts directly?


But maybe Hans knows these people?
>
> see here : https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/projects.php?lang=en#h3
>
> These fellows seem to work for Brepols and Oxford >University Press
> asswell as Utrecht University.
>
> Read this curious assertion (curious because the text mention an invisible
> project) :
> "Stoa Project
>
> The Stoa Project, which is carried out by the history working group of the 
> Department
> of philosophy  of Utrecht University, will lead
> to a renewed publication of text fragments of the early Stoa, represented
> by philosophers such as Zeno, Chrysippus and Cleanthes. Very little of our
> knowledge about the Stoa comes from primary sources; most of what we know
> about it has been derived from secondary sources. Our most important
> sources are other philosophers and doxographers, who have cited and
> paraphrased the learnings of the early Stoa. Through modern research on
> doxographic traditions and republications of many of the sources, the
> current publication of this material, J. von Arnim’s Stoicorum Veterum
> Fragmenta (1903-1924) has become outdated.
>
> TAT Zetwerk’s role in this project is managing the FileMaker database that
> contains Stoic text fragments (mainly in ancient Greek) accompanied by text
> critical and historic-philosophical notes, an English translation, and meta
> data. As soon as the text parts in the database have reached their final
> form, we convert them into a TeX-format, so that we can generate a mirrored
> critical edition. We can then create indices and concordances by using the
> meta data from the database. Currently, the Stoa Project does not have its
> own website."
> If I understand, TAT Zetwerk manage Apple FileMaker database of pieces of
> Stoicorum Fragmenta texts (von Arnim edition) in order to convert them in
> TeX form (with critical apparatus...). But they give no sample.
>
>
> Le 07/01/2022 à 18:35, luigi scarso via ntg-context a écrit :
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:25 PM hanneder--- via ntg-context <
> ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:
>
>>
>> Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
>> As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in
>> Indology and
>> I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other
>> words, the authors
>> have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc.
>> Our publications
>> series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with
>> LaTeX, as are my publications
>> with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in
>> Germany. There is no institution
>> offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no
>> commercial interest in it and I
>> think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts
>> are used instead of transliteration).
>>
>> Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use
>> TeX internally, which is convenient,
>> but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation,
>> frustrating in a way, but it also
>> gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own
>> dilettantic designs).
>>
>> Jürgen
>>
>
> perhaps this can be interesting
> https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/
> (seen them at a context meeting years ago)
>
>
> --
> luigi
>
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> --
> Jean-Pierre Delange
> Agrégé de philosophie
> Ancients
> "Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
> ideas" - Lord Acton
>
>
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> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
>
> 

Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Thanks Hans for this detailed informations !


Le 08/01/2022 à 14:03, Hans Hagen via ntg-context a écrit :

On 1/8/2022 12:40 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

Luigi,

Thank you for the link.

Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research 
on Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the 
English philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead 
and the maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 
. But maybe Hans knows these people?
It's a small dutch typesetting company doing work for afaik publishere 
in the the humanities and they are speciaized in non latin scripts 
(read: whatever can't be outsourced to large scale service 
far-far-away). They use their own plain tex macros (understandable and 
possible because no publishere can force to use a macro package for 
tricky typesetting).


They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari 
code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized. Over the 
years we improved that (this also relates to better specs showing up 
and more fonts; the reference for rendering is microsoft uniscribe). 
We also stepwise improved the more complex bits and pieces of handling 
discretionaries with extensive (and complex) latin fonts (that they 
use and can test) as well as some fuzzy arabic fonts. it is the main 
reason why we have the generic font loader (i.e. most of the context 
fontloader works with plain (as we ship it) including some of the 
fancy stuff; latex used that code too but with patches and layers 
around it and maybe not all features but it switched to using libraries).


So, indeed I know these (two) people,

Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/8/2022 12:40 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

Luigi,

Thank you for the link.

Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research on 
Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the 
English philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead and 
the maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 . But 
maybe Hans knows these people?
It's a small dutch typesetting company doing work for afaik publishere 
in the the humanities and they are speciaized in non latin scripts 
(read: whatever can't be outsourced to large scale service 
far-far-away). They use their own plain tex macros (understandable and 
possible because no publishere can force to use a macro package for 
tricky typesetting).


They do indic scripts and Kai made the first version of the devanagari 
code for the context fontloader code that I then optimized. Over the 
years we improved that (this also relates to better specs showing up and 
more fonts; the reference for rendering is microsoft uniscribe). We also 
stepwise improved the more complex bits and pieces of handling 
discretionaries with extensive (and complex) latin fonts (that they use 
and can test) as well as some fuzzy arabic fonts. it is the main reason 
why we have the generic font loader (i.e. most of the context fontloader 
works with plain (as we ship it) including some of the fancy stuff; 
latex used that code too but with patches and layers around it and maybe 
not all features but it switched to using libraries).


So, indeed I know these (two) people,

Hans

-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Luigi,

Thank you for the link.

Unfortunately this site mentions some typesetting work for research on 
Stoicism (and other stuff) and on uploading the manuscripts of the 
English philosopher John Locke, but apparently some links are dead and 
the maintenance of the site seems to have stopped since ... 2011 . But 
maybe Hans knows these people?


see here : https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/projects.php?lang=en#h3

These fellows seem to work for Brepols and Oxford >University Press 
asswell as Utrecht University.


Read this curious assertion (curious because the text mention an 
invisible project) :


"Stoa Project

The Stoa Project, which is carried out by the history working group of 
the Department of philosophy  of Utrecht 
University, will lead to a renewed publication of text fragments of the 
early Stoa, represented by philosophers such as Zeno, Chrysippus and 
Cleanthes. Very little of our knowledge about the Stoa comes from 
primary sources; most of what we know about it has been derived from 
secondary sources. Our most important sources are other philosophers and 
doxographers, who have cited and paraphrased the learnings of the early 
Stoa. Through modern research on doxographic traditions and 
republications of many of the sources, the current publication of this 
material, J. von Arnim’s Stoicorum Veterum Fragmenta (1903-1924) has 
become outdated.


TAT Zetwerk’s role in this project is managing the FileMaker database 
that contains Stoic text fragments (mainly in ancient Greek) accompanied 
by text critical and historic-philosophical notes, an English 
translation, and meta data. As soon as the text parts in the database 
have reached their final form, we convert them into a TeX-format, so 
that we can generate a mirrored critical edition. We can then create 
indices and concordances by using the meta data from the database. 
Currently, the Stoa Project does not have its own website."


If I understand, TAT Zetwerk manage Apple FileMaker database of pieces 
of Stoicorum Fragmenta texts (von Arnim edition) in order to convert 
them in TeX form (with critical apparatus...). But they give no sample.



Le 07/01/2022 à 18:35, luigi scarso via ntg-context a écrit :



On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:25 PM hanneder--- via ntg-context 
 wrote:



Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in
Indology and
I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other
words, the authors
have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc.
Our publications
series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with
LaTeX, as are my publications
with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in
Germany. There is no institution
offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no
commercial interest in it and I
think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts
are used instead of transliteration).

Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use
TeX internally, which is convenient,
but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation,
frustrating in a way, but it also
gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own
dilettantic designs).

Jürgen


perhaps this can be interesting
https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/
(seen them at a context meeting years ago)

--
luigi

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--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
ideas" - Lord Acton
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/7/2022 6:25 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:


Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in 
Indology and
I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other words, 
the authors
have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc. 
Our publications
series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with LaTeX, 
as are my publications
with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in 
Germany. There is no institution
offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no 
commercial interest in it and I
think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts are 
used instead of transliteration).


there was a time that publishers had some pride in offering low volume 
publications and paid for that by large volume succes stories ... but 
those were real publishers (persons, not companies)


Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use TeX 
internally, which is convenient,
but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation, 
frustrating in a way, but it also
gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own 
dilettantic designs).

that brings me to the question:

  what do those who are independent from publishers really
  want in a typeseting system .. not bound by what a specific
  publisher with no real interest but profit demands

i'm often puzzled by the fact that in spite of what technology (and 
thereby tex) makes possible is not used to its full extend .. (my 
favourite exmaple: why go along the troublesome accessibility path 
instead of providing plenty variants that suit specific users and 
publish the sources so that those interested in it can do it ... 
interestingly easy audio inclusion was dropped from pdf instead of 
adding means to attach that to a stretch of text) .. i think publishers 
were never really interested in those things (no reserch lab anyway)


so ... what features would make *you* happy if you didn't have to take 
publishing (which doesn't happen) and tradition (imposed by those who 
don't publish your work anyway) into account but could produce the best 
for your reader


Hans

-
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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[luigi scarso via ntg-context]

On Fri, Jan 7, 2022 at 6:25 PM hanneder--- via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

>
> Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
> As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in
> Indology and
> I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other
> words, the authors
> have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc.
> Our publications
> series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with
> LaTeX, as are my publications
> with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in
> Germany. There is no institution
> offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no
> commercial interest in it and I
> think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts
> are used instead of transliteration).
>
> Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use
> TeX internally, which is convenient,
> but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation,
> frustrating in a way, but it also
> gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own
> dilettantic designs).
>
> Jürgen
>

perhaps this can be interesting
https://www.tatzetwerk.nl/
(seen them at a context meeting years ago)


-- 
luigi
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

Probably the situation in South Asian Studies (Indology) is peculiar.
As I indicated, there are mostly no  budgets for book typesetting in  
Indology and
I know of no real expert for typesetting in this field. In other  
words, the authors
have do it themselves, usually in Word etc., but some do use TeX etc.  
Our publications
series (Indologica Marpurgensia) is, for instance, all done with  
LaTeX, as are my publications
with Harrassowitz, which is the largest publisher in our field in  
Germany. There is no institution
offering typesetting of Sanskrit editions, because there is no  
commercial interest in it and I
think there is no expertise for this (especially when Indian scripts  
are used instead of transliteration).


Journals are different. Indological journals published by Brill use  
TeX internally, which is convenient,
but most others know only Word (->InDesign). That is the situation,  
frustrating in a way, but it also
gives some freedom for using TeX (and, sadly, creating one's own  
dilettantic designs).


Jürgen

I know one company in Leipzig that works for big publishers  
(www.le-tex.de). I talked to them a few years ago at a book fair and  
applied twice for their job offers (but they want people to work at  
their office).


For scientific publications they’re using a XML-to-LaTeX workflow,  
otherwise Word-based (->XML->LaTeX or ->InDesign). Of course they  
accept all kind of data; it looks like they’re really good in  
automated workflows.


But I guess there are strong competitors in the far east...

Hraban
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- Ende der Nachricht von Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context  
 -




---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 06.01.22 um 19:41 schrieb Hans Hagen via ntg-context:
there was a time when publishers did typesetting and printing themselves 
in which case they might have some interest in tools but afaik that time 
is long gone (and i admit that i never met a publisher where investing 
in know how and technology was part of the corporate identity (there 
were some but by the time context showed up most large publishers 
started outsourcing to far-far-away and those interested in technologies 
left), at least not one that invest beyond a specific product and even 
then falling back on tools like tex is a last resort ...


I know one company in Leipzig that works for big publishers 
(www.le-tex.de). I talked to them a few years ago at a book fair and 
applied twice for their job offers (but they want people to work at 
their office).


For scientific publications they’re using a XML-to-LaTeX workflow, 
otherwise Word-based (->XML->LaTeX or ->InDesign). Of course they accept 
all kind of data; it looks like they’re really good in automated workflows.


But I guess there are strong competitors in the far east...

Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 1/6/2022 6:47 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:

The question of funding computing tools is an issue : it is true in a 
private situation when you want to write a manuscript with versioning 
(you have to know how it works), but it is more relevant within an 
academic field of research : who wants to buy days of education for 
scholars for their learning in computing or for XML Oxygen and other 
tools ?
there was a time when publishers did typesetting and printing themselves 
in which case they might have some interest in tools but afaik that time 
is long gone (and i admit that i never met a publisher where investing 
in know how and technology was part of the corporate identity (there 
were some but by the time context showed up most large publishers 
started outsourcing to far-far-away and those interested in technologies 
left), at least not one that invest beyond a specific product and even 
then falling back on tools like tex is a last resort ... do publisheres 
even have departments that do some kind of resaearch at all? i admire 
those working at publishers who were willing to take the risk (we dealt 
with some) but mergers, buyouts by crooky strip-down-and-lay-off 
investors etc doesn't help dedicated employees long term


using tools like tex really depends on individuals who know what they're 
dealing with and can make convincing use case examples (and then explain 
thet investing time / money beforehand pays back a lot long term (which 
is possible in non publishing contexts but publishers go for short term 
which means pay per page (every time) instead of pay per project (and 
some maintanance)


when i look at some publications i even wonder if the big ones even care 
about quality at all (folks at the newspaper that we read here figured 
out that using grayish fonts is best, that hyphenation doesn't need 
checking, that inter character spacing and extrems expansion looks 
great, or: soon we migh ditch it because it became hard to read).


so ... i suppose authors are pretty much on their own and maybe not even 
seen as (human) assets any longer by publishers ... but then, i never 
(will) publish, so who knows ...


and from the perspective of context (and development) it is therefore 
users (who of course can represent an organization) is what we focus on


Hans

-
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  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Le 06/01/2022 à 17:57, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :

On 1/5/22 12:52 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

Dear critical edition experts,

the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and
  the other posts are really answering my questions. Everything seems
to be already there and if there were a Wiki on critical editions I
would perhaps have not even asked.

The wiki is a cooperative effort. Nothing prevents you from starting a
new article on critical editions at the ConTeXt Garden
(https://wiki.contextgarden.net).

If you put some samples, other users may extend you article (again, this
is a cooperative effort).


As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is
needed, but since the topic is being discussed -

This should be no big surprise: Knuth developed TeX as a typesetting
programming language, not mainly as an input format.

Once you get used to it, TeX (or ConTeXt) may be easier for you as input
format. But it makes sense that as input format, ConTeXt cannot be
future–proof in that way, if it is in development.


I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for
critical editions, for the following reasons:
1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense
in 2022. This is not sustainable because
no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it.
You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is
sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with
various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.

I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the
first question is: Is a pdf more sustainable, or an online edition
(based on html etc.)? Time will tell, I guess. The same applies to
TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been
edited by that method yet (in my field), many projects are being
worked on, but they tend not to be finished, when the project ends.
Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based say
that the latter significantly slows down the collation process.

Research (Maryanne Wolf) shows that people read way better on paper. We
tend to forget way faster what we read on e–ink screens. Just in case
anyone is interested

PDF is way easier to maintain. Once you generate it, this is all to it.
XML sources need more work to get and display data (oversimplifying the
issue).

In my experience, having XML sources requires learning how to generate
PDF output from them (and how to display them online). I use Markdown
and if I had to share my document, this would be way easier than to
share ConTeXt source files containing text. That way, I could focus on
the typesetting and the team could focus on the pure content (text or
images).

TEI may be a pain to learn and to write, but it makes sense to use it as
input format. Or the alternative would be a light–weight markup
language, not TeX.


At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone
is talking about online editions, data repositories etc., but the
reality as I experience it is not up to these expectations. One of
our great paleographical online tools was almost lost, since there is
no institutional funding for updating those systems. Even finding a
host for an online edition can be (and is in our case) a nightmare.

Don’t universites host online archives for research projects?


In short, my solution is: printed version as in the last centuries,
possibly additional online edition with a shorter life span and
online publication of research data. This sounds great, but actually
we are talking mainly about the collation file, that is, the
TeX-input file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml
by ekdosis, and that's it. The mss scans are prohibited from online
publication by German copyright (no Indian institution will grant
any rights).

I’m interested in the copyright issue.

All I knew about German copyright law is that it protects critical
editions (I mean, not the apparatus, but the text itself.)

What is actually protected by German copyright in manuscript scans? The
photograph itself? In that case, for manuscripts and works that are in
the public domain, who is supposed to be the copyright holder?


Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new
possibilities. I was part of an online dictionary project
(nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and everything else, but
after the threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the
dictionary), I have to finance occasional updates from our normal
budget (the DFG had decreed that no further funding for this project
was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes for a
continuation of my post - it might become quickly useless. As long
as we have enough nerds who can and will do the necessary work
privately, we are safe.

Maybe the wrong approach is that studies in humanities don’t 

Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/5/22 12:52 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
>
> Dear critical edition experts,
>
> the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and
>  the other posts are really answering my questions. Everything seems
> to be already there and if there were a Wiki on critical editions I
> would perhaps have not even asked.

The wiki is a cooperative effort. Nothing prevents you from starting a
new article on critical editions at the ConTeXt Garden
(https://wiki.contextgarden.net).

If you put some samples, other users may extend you article (again, this
is a cooperative effort).

> As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is
> needed, but since the topic is being discussed -

This should be no big surprise: Knuth developed TeX as a typesetting
programming language, not mainly as an input format.

Once you get used to it, TeX (or ConTeXt) may be easier for you as input
format. But it makes sense that as input format, ConTeXt cannot be
future–proof in that way, if it is in development.

>> I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for
>> critical editions, for the following reasons:
>> 1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense
>> in 2022. This is not sustainable because
>> no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it.
>> You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
>> 2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is
>> sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with
>> various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.
>
> I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the
> first question is: Is a pdf more sustainable, or an online edition
> (based on html etc.)? Time will tell, I guess. The same applies to
> TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been
> edited by that method yet (in my field), many projects are being
> worked on, but they tend not to be finished, when the project ends.
> Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based say
> that the latter significantly slows down the collation process.

Research (Maryanne Wolf) shows that people read way better on paper. We
tend to forget way faster what we read on e–ink screens. Just in case
anyone is interested

PDF is way easier to maintain. Once you generate it, this is all to it.
XML sources need more work to get and display data (oversimplifying the
issue).

In my experience, having XML sources requires learning how to generate
PDF output from them (and how to display them online). I use Markdown
and if I had to share my document, this would be way easier than to
share ConTeXt source files containing text. That way, I could focus on
the typesetting and the team could focus on the pure content (text or
images).

TEI may be a pain to learn and to write, but it makes sense to use it as
input format. Or the alternative would be a light–weight markup
language, not TeX.

> At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone
> is talking about online editions, data repositories etc., but the
> reality as I experience it is not up to these expectations. One of
> our great paleographical online tools was almost lost, since there is
> no institutional funding for updating those systems. Even finding a
> host for an online edition can be (and is in our case) a nightmare.

Don’t universites host online archives for research projects?

> In short, my solution is: printed version as in the last centuries,
> possibly additional online edition with a shorter life span and
> online publication of research data. This sounds great, but actually
> we are talking mainly about the collation file, that is, the
> TeX-input file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml
> by ekdosis, and that's it. The mss scans are prohibited from online
> publication by German copyright (no Indian institution will grant
> any rights).

I’m interested in the copyright issue.

All I knew about German copyright law is that it protects critical
editions (I mean, not the apparatus, but the text itself.)

What is actually protected by German copyright in manuscript scans? The
photograph itself? In that case, for manuscripts and works that are in
the public domain, who is supposed to be the copyright holder?

> Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new
> possibilities. I was part of an online dictionary project
> (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and everything else, but
> after the threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the
> dictionary), I have to finance occasional updates from our normal
> budget (the DFG had decreed that no further funding for this project
> was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes for a
> continuation of my post - it might become quickly useless. As long
> as we have enough nerds who can and will do the necessary work
> privately, we are safe.

Maybe the wrong approach is 

Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/5/22 1:34 PM, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context wrote:
> Pablo and Luigi,
>
> Or simply add this paper to the bibliographical survey at the end of the
> wiki page made by Thomas ?
>
> https://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml

Jean-Pierre,

excellent idea!

Pablo
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/5/22 6:39 PM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
> Dear Jean-Pierre,
>
> I started preparing some examples, but first a quick question: Where
> can I find out the exact behaviour of a command option like aNote.
>
> If you define a \cNote with \definelinenote[cNote][n=3] as in your
> example, then the input line
>
> Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque
>
> prints laboribus in the text and as the lemma! I cannot see where this is
> defined (and explained).

Hi Jürgen,

it is a simple command definition:

  \def\CNote#1#2{#1\cNote{#1] #2}}

Just in case it might not be clear, "\CNote{laboribus}{première note}"
would be the same as typing "laboribus\cNote{laboribus] première note}".

BTW, for humans "a" = "A". For a computer, "a" ≠ "A". So "\CNote" is a
different command from "\cNote". For a basic sample is fine, but for
real documents creating commands that are too similar for humans is the
best way to make mistakes.

My apologies if the explanations are obvious to you.

I hope this might help,

Pablo
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Hi Pablo !

Herewith the Luigi Scarso file translated into English ...

Le 05/01/2022 à 12:54, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :

On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:

[...]
quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).

Pablo
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--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
ideas" - Lord Acton
<>
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Aditya Mahajan via ntg-context]

On Wed, 5 Jan 2022, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:

> Dear Jean-Pierre,
> 
> I started preparing some examples, but first a quick question: Where  
> can I find out the exact behaviour of a command option like aNote.
> 
> If you define a \cNote with \definelinenote[cNote][n=3] as in your  
> example, then the input line
> 
> Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque
> 
> prints laboribus in the text and as the lemma! I cannot see where this is
> defined (and explained).

To get an overview of linenotes, see:

https://www.contextgarden.net/Command/_linenote
https://www.contextgarden.net/Command/setuplinenote

Aditya___
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

The starting point of the discussion on reledmac and other related points, has 
begun on May 13, 2016. See here about the way to get a ConTeXt equivalent to a 
LaTeX encoding : https://www.mail-archive.com/ntg-context@ntg.nl/msg81793.html 
 (I gave the 
LaTeX code).

For the question asked by Jürgen, as far as I know, you have to deal (and play) 
with setupnote, definenote AND setupline commands. Discussion is here : 
https://www.mail-archive.com/search?l=ntg-context@ntg.nl=subject:%22Re%5C%3A+%5C%5BNTG%5C-context%5C%5D+TwoColumns+in+two+different+languages%2C+with+alternate+text+on+even+and+odd+page.%22=newest=1

> Le 5 janv. 2022 à 18:28, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context 
>  a écrit :
> 
> Hi Luigi & Pablo,
> I’ve thinking that Google translate may be provide some help. I’ll try it !
> 
>> Le 5 janv. 2022 à 17:13, luigi scarso via ntg-context > > a écrit :
>> 
>> 
>> 
>> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:54 PM Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context 
>> mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> wrote:
>> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
>> > [...]
>> > quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
>> > embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
>> > https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf 
>> > 
>> 
>> Luigi,
>> 
>> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
>> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
>> 
>> yeah, but unfortunately I have no time now.  
>> It's for luatex with poppler -- now we have pplib --
>> and not lmtx, so not so useful I guess.
>> But you can try with
>> $>pdftotext -layout teitagged.pdf 
>> and translate teitagged.txt  with google. 
>> 
>> -- 
>> luigi
>> ___
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
>> the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl  / 
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context 
>> 
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl  / 
>> http://context.aanhet.net 
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/ 
>> 
>> wiki : http://contextgarden.net 
>> ___
> 
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

Dear Jean-Pierre,

I started preparing some examples, but first a quick question: Where  
can I find out the exact behaviour of a command option like aNote.


If you define a \cNote with \definelinenote[cNote][n=3] as in your  
example, then the input line


Cum defensionum \CNote{laboribus}{première note} senatoriisque

prints laboribus in the text and as the lemma! I cannot see where this is
defined (and explained).





- Nachricht von Jean-Pierre Delange  -
  Datum: Wed, 5 Jan 2022 13:29:20 +0100
Von: Jean-Pierre Delange 
Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
 An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
 Cc: hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de



Dear Jürgen,

Would you mind to test the MWE sample I've given  
(ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.tex) whith a little bit more  
information inside - in order to test furthermore ? You can change  
the text, even the \dorecurse option, in order to see what simply  
works and what does not for your purpose. There is a difficulty I've  
tried to solve some years ago : when you get two parrallel texts  
(for example an Ancient Greek text on odd page, and its translation  
on the even page) the solution seem to be in 'stream' to get a side  
by side text on different pages. If you try to do a two columns with  
separate texts - greek and its translation in my example - on the  
same page, it is working for the first page, but doesn't work for  
the following pages, that's why the 'stream' option seems a better  
way (see here :  
https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Columns#Examples_of_MkIV_streams).



Le 05/01/2022 à 12:52, hanneder--- via ntg-context a écrit :


Dear critical edition experts,

the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and  
the other posts are really
answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if  
there were a Wiki on critical
editions I would perhaps have not even asked. Thanks a lot! If  
anything else is planned by the

experts and you need input from a Sanskrit editor, please let me know.

As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is  
needed, but since the topic is

being discussed -

I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for  
critical editions, for the following reasons:
1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no  
sense in 2022. This is not sustainable because
no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on  
it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is  
sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with  
various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.


I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the  
first question is: Is a pdf more
sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will  
tell, I guess. The same applies
to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been  
edited by that method yet (in my
field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be  
finished, when the project
ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and  
XML-based say that the latter

significantly slows down the collation process.

At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone  
is talking about online
editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience  
it is not up to these
expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was  
almost lost, since there is no institutional
funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an  
online edition can be (and is in our
case) a nightmare. In short, my solution is: printed version as in  
the last centuries, possibly
additional online edition with a shorter life span and online  
publication of research data. This
sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the  
collation file, that is, the TeX-input
file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by  
ekdosis, and that's it. The mss
scans are prohibited from online publication by German copy right  
(no Indian institution will grant

any rights).

Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new  
possibilities. I was part of an online
dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and  
everything else, but after the
threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the  
dictionary), I have to finance
occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that  
no further funding for this
project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great  
hopes for a continuation of my
post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough  
nerds who can and will do

the necessary work privately, we are safe.

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format:  
it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in  
2 (or 5 or 50) years.


Perhaps not, but I had much fun just checking out its

Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Hi Luigi & Pablo,
I’ve thinking that Google translate may be provide some help. I’ll try it !

> Le 5 janv. 2022 à 17:13, luigi scarso via ntg-context  a 
> écrit :
> 
> 
> 
> On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:54 PM Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context 
> mailto:ntg-context@ntg.nl>> wrote:
> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
> > [...]
> > quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
> > embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
> > https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf 
> > 
> 
> Luigi,
> 
> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
> 
> yeah, but unfortunately I have no time now.  
> It's for luatex with poppler -- now we have pplib --
> and not lmtx, so not so useful I guess.
> But you can try with
> $>pdftotext -layout teitagged.pdf 
> and translate teitagged.txt  with google. 
> 
> -- 
> luigi
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[luigi scarso via ntg-context]

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:54 PM Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
> > [...]
> > quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
> > embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
> > https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf
>
> Luigi,
>
> if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
> that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.
>

yeah, but unfortunately I have no time now.
It's for luatex with poppler -- now we have pplib --
and not lmtx, so not so useful I guess.
But you can try with
$>pdftotext -layout teitagged.pdf
and translate teitagged.txt  with google.

-- 
luigi
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 05.01.22 um 12:54 schrieb Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context:

On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:

[...]
quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf


Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).


I’m happy to receive articles for the journal!

And after all these years a talk/presentation on that matter would be 
great for the upcoming ConTeXt meeting!


Hraban (who is responsible for both)
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

I've found in NTG archives a discussion on XML analysis tool, which make 
me feel like a soldier who wants to fight after the battle ! ... 5 years 
ago


See here : 
https://ntg-context.ntg.narkive.com/HAES9QLP/tei-to-context-xml-mappings


So, the question is (I don't want to start some troll, I am just 
considering the fact) : why the wiki documentation on the topic (TEI-XML 
with ConTeXt) is so thin ? I'm sure that we can feed this page ...


Le 05/01/2022 à 13:34, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context a écrit :

Pablo and Luigi,

Or simply add this paper to the bibliographical survey at the end of 
the wiki page made by Thomas ?


https://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml


Le 05/01/2022 à 12:54, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :

On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:

[...]
quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).

Pablo
___ 

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wiki : http://contextgarden.net
___ 




--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
ideas" - Lord Acton

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Pablo and Luigi,

Or simply add this paper to the bibliographical survey at the end of the 
wiki page made by Thomas ?


https://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml


Le 05/01/2022 à 12:54, Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context a écrit :

On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:

[...]
quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).

Pablo
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--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
ideas" - Lord Acton

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Dear Jürgen,

Would you mind to test the MWE sample I've given 
(ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.tex) whith a little bit more 
information inside - in order to test furthermore ? You can change the 
text, even the \dorecurse option, in order to see what simply works and 
what does not for your purpose. There is a difficulty I've tried to 
solve some years ago : when you get two parrallel texts (for example an 
Ancient Greek text on odd page, and its translation on the even page) 
the solution seem to be in 'stream' to get a side by side text on 
different pages. If you try to do a two columns with separate texts - 
greek and its translation in my example - on the same page, it is 
working for the first page, but doesn't work for the following pages, 
that's why the 'stream' option seems a better way (see here : 
https://wiki.contextgarden.net/Columns#Examples_of_MkIV_streams).



Le 05/01/2022 à 12:52, hanneder--- via ntg-context a écrit :


Dear critical edition experts,

the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and 
the other posts are really
answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if 
there were a Wiki on critical
editions I would perhaps have not even asked. Thanks a lot! If 
anything else is planned by the

experts and you need input from a Sanskrit editor, please let me know.

As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is 
needed, but since the topic is

being discussed -

I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for 
critical editions, for the following reasons:
1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense 
in 2022. This is not sustainable because
no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it. 
You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is 
sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with 
various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.


I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the first 
question is: Is a pdf more
sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will 
tell, I guess. The same applies
to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been 
edited by that method yet (in my
field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be 
finished, when the project
ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based 
say that the latter

significantly slows down the collation process.

At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone is 
talking about online
editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience it 
is not up to these
expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was almost 
lost, since there is no institutional
funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an online 
edition can be (and is in our
case) a nightmare. In short, my solution is: printed version as in the 
last centuries, possibly
additional online edition with a shorter life span and online 
publication of research data. This
sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the collation 
file, that is, the TeX-input
file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by 
ekdosis, and that's it. The mss
scans are prohibited from online publication by German copy right (no 
Indian institution will grant

any rights).

Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new possibilities. 
I was part of an online
dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and 
everything else, but after the
threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the 
dictionary), I have to finance
occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that no 
further funding for this
project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes 
for a continuation of my
post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough 
nerds who can and will do

the necessary work privately, we are safe.

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it 
is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 
5 or 50) years.


Perhaps not, but I had much fun just checking out its possibilities 
and have started to use it as the default.



4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.
Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI 
xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it.


I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let ekdosis 
do the conversion,
if necessary. But in publication practice in my field, most of this is 
just for private
entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word file, so the 
tool of choice
is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx. Sorry to end on this 
depressing note.

Best
Jürgen



---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. 

Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/5/22 9:43 AM, luigi scarso via ntg-context wrote:
> [...]
> quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
> embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
> https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

Luigi,

if you allow me a comment (or even a suggestion), an English version of
that article updated to LMTX wouuld be of huge help to the rest of us.

I don’t even know whether it could be released on the “ConTeXt Group
Journal” (https://articles.contextgarden.net/journal/).

Pablo
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

Dear critical edition experts,

the examples given in ConTeXt_Test_Footnote-ComplexMedieval.pdf and  
the other posts are really
answering my questions. Everything seems to be already there and if  
there were a Wiki on critical
editions I would perhaps have not even asked. Thanks a lot! If  
anything else is planned by the

experts and you need input from a Sanskrit editor, please let me know.

As far as I see, no ConTeXt input format for critical editions is  
needed, but since the topic is

being discussed -

I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input format for  
critical editions, for the following reasons:
1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense  
in 2022. This is not sustainable because
no-one will be able to take your edition and continue to work on it.  
You have to provide a digital edition as research data.
2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is  
sustainable at least for some time so it can be processed with  
various types of software. TEI xml has become the de facto standard.


I must disagree. There is no print only version any more, so the first  
question is: Is a pdf more
sustainable, or an online edition (based on html etc.)? Time will  
tell, I guess. The same applies
to TEI based online editions by the way. No larger texts have been  
edited by that method yet (in my
field), many projects are being worked on, but they tend not to be  
finished, when the project
ends. Some of the people actually working with both TeX and XML-based  
say that the latter

significantly slows down the collation process.

At least in Indology books and scans are still being used. Everyone is  
talking about online
editions, data repositories etc., but the reality as I experience it  
is not up to these
expectations. One of our great paleographical online tools was almost  
lost, since there is no institutional
funding for updating those systems. Even finding a host for an online  
edition can be (and is in our
case) a nightmare. In short, my solution is: printed version as in the  
last centuries, possibly
additional online edition with a shorter life span and online  
publication of research data. This
sounds great, but actually we are talking mainly about the collation  
file, that is, the TeX-input
file. Not a big deal, since now this can be turned into xml by  
ekdosis, and that's it. The mss
scans are prohibited from online publication by German copy right (no  
Indian institution will grant

any rights).

Let me emphasize that I am not at all against these new possibilities.  
I was part of an online
dictionary project (nws.uzi.uni-halle.de) that worked with TEI and  
everything else, but after the
threat to close down Indology in Halle (the location of the  
dictionary), I have to finance
occasional updates from our normal budget (the DFG had decreed that no  
further funding for this
project was possible) and after my retirement - I have no great hopes  
for a continuation of my
post - it might become quickly useless. As long as we have enough  
nerds who can and will do

the necessary work privately, we are safe.

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format:  
it is in development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2  
(or 5 or 50) years.


Perhaps not, but I had much fun just checking out its possibilities  
and have started to use it as the default.



4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.
Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in  
TEI xml (or a subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to  
process it.


I am used to TeX-code, and so I'd rather stick to that and let ekdosis  
do the conversion,
if necessary. But in publication practice in my field, most of this is  
just for private
entertainment. Almost all publishers still expect a Word file, so the  
tool of choice

is pandoc to downgrade from TeX to docx. Sorry to end on this depressing note.
Best
Jürgen



---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Thank you Luigi !

"Quite old" doesn't matter. The date of the wiki page from Thomas is 
2010... And my own contribution to first steps with ConTeXt (in French 
and not for mathematics) through a Wikibook is no more valuable, full of 
errors and obsolete on many aspects 
(https://fr.wikibooks.org/wiki/ConTeXt) !


As Garulfo made a quite good job last year with his own contribution 
(https://github.com/contextgarden/not-so-short-introduction-to-context/tree/main/), 
it may be useful to produce a kind of "howto" with TEI-XML and LMTX-CTX.


I propose that at first time, any volunteer gather documentation on 
TEI-XML with ConTeXt to feed the wiki page on this topic, with in mind a 
real case of their choice (which may be a real academic case or an issue 
of their choice), not too tricky - or too far away of the common use, 
even if, by itself, the issues encountered in academic edition in 
humanities (or TEI-XML edition) are ... tricky and/or not very usual 
(because not it is not everybody who try to edit the work of Romanos the 
Melodist, or sanskrit poetry !).


As I saw that Thomas A. Schmitz was time to time an editor of Second 
Sophistic authors (among other things like French Renaissance poets), 
and few others Context users use to deal with CTX in order to publish 
ancients texts/poetry (like Pablo ...), I propose in a second time a 
general discussion on the topic, with in mind : What are the needs ? and 
what it is necessary to achieve at first and how ?


Thank you to share your views.

JP

Le 05/01/2022 à 09:43, luigi scarso a écrit :



On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:00 AM Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context 
 wrote:


Thomas,
Even if I am an occasional user of CTX (mainly class courses for
beginners and sophomore or by trying to write samples of what it
is possible to achieve with it), and if I think I am aware about
what can do CTX or what it cannot do, I didn't know that you wrote
a  wiki page on TEI-XML with ConTeXt : even if I am interested by
clever printing and issues with multi-languages texts topics, I
ignored your precious piece of work. I was interested by the
questions of Pr. Jürgen Hanneder, because even if I don't know a
word of Sanskrit,  it is allways a true pain to begin with
technical requisits when your real job is to think about the
problematic meaning of ancients or less ancients texts. You
precise clearly what I think about University mores, and J.
Hanneder tell us his problems, which all of us know.
There are, for people who are working on Ancient Greek, Latin,
Middle Age texts or Sanskrit (or whatever) some commercial tools
which seem do the work : but technical efficiency asks allways
money. I know of a company that works for a publisher, whose
service is to code some Perl with text formatted in LaTeX and XML,
in order to produce a display on screen and a printout on paper,
until the page which presents the cover of the book and the
summary of the contents, as well as its ISBN code, its price and
the quantity of books in stock.

quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

--
luigi


--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
ideas" - Lord Acton
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[luigi scarso via ntg-context]

On Wed, Jan 5, 2022 at 12:00 AM Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context <
ntg-context@ntg.nl> wrote:

> Thomas,
> Even if I am an occasional user of CTX (mainly class courses for beginners
> and sophomore or by trying to write samples of what it is possible to
> achieve with it), and if I think I am aware about what can do CTX or what
> it cannot do, I didn't know that you wrote a  wiki page on TEI-XML with
> ConTeXt : even if I am interested by clever printing and issues with
> multi-languages texts topics, I ignored your precious piece of work. I was
> interested by the questions of Pr. Jürgen Hanneder, because even if I don't
> know a word of Sanskrit,  it is allways a true pain to begin with technical
> requisits when your real job is to think about the problematic meaning of
> ancients or less ancients texts. You precise clearly what I think about
> University mores, and J. Hanneder tell us his problems, which all of us
> know.
> There are, for people who are working on Ancient Greek, Latin, Middle Age
> texts or Sanskrit (or whatever) some commercial tools which seem do the
> work : but technical efficiency asks allways money.  I know of a company
> that works for a publisher, whose service is to code some Perl with text
> formatted in LaTeX and XML, in order to produce a display on screen and a
> printout on paper, until the page which presents the cover of the book and
> the summary of the contents, as well as its ISBN code, its price and the
> quantity of books in stock.
>
quite old (2014),  but perhaps still interesting:
embedding of a tei-xml into a tagged pdf
https://www.guitex.org/home/images/ArsTeXnica/AT018/teitagged.pdf

-- 
luigi
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Thomas,
Even if I am an occasional user of CTX (mainly class courses for 
beginners and sophomore or by trying to write samples of what it is 
possible to achieve with it), and if I think I am aware about what can 
do CTX or what it cannot do, I didn't know that you wrote a  wiki page 
on TEI-XML with ConTeXt : even if I am interested by clever printing and 
issues with multi-languages texts topics, I ignored your precious piece 
of work. I was interested by the questions of Pr. Jürgen Hanneder, 
because even if I don't know a word of Sanskrit,  it is allways a true 
pain to begin with technical requisits when your real job is to think 
about the problematic meaning of ancients or less ancients texts. You 
precise clearly what I think about University mores, and J. Hanneder 
tell us his problems, which all of us know.
There are, for people who are working on Ancient Greek, Latin, Middle 
Age texts or Sanskrit (or whatever) some commercial tools which seem do 
the work : but technical efficiency asks allways money. I know of a 
company that works for a publisher, whose service is to code some Perl 
with text formatted in LaTeX and XML, in order to produce a display on 
screen and a printout on paper, until the page which presents the cover 
of the book and the summary of the contents, as well as its ISBN code, 
its price and the quantity of books in stock.


ConTeXt was at the very start a kind of a clever answer to the huge of 
technical abilities asked by LaTeX, and free of charge, numerous people 
interested by text editing have turned their eyes to ConTeXt.
I agree with you about reading and solving problems for a 400 pages text 
with 2 or 3 different languages and several levels of criticus apparatus 
: one needs to begin with the beginning or a kind of beginning with some 
issues given by a real and modest sample.


Best//JP

Le 04/01/2022 à 21:02, Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context a écrit :

I basically agree with everything you say, Jean-Pierre. Publishers are 
modern-day robber barons, and they have been stifling and exploiting scholars 
and scholarship for many years now. Behemoths such as Brill, de Gruyter, or 
Elsevier are bankrupting libraries in the entire world. However, we scholars 
also have some responsibility: if we could agree with each other, we could 
easily bypass the big publishers and have our critical editions (in a variety 
of formats) on our university’s websites. But we don’t do that: younger 
scholars need the validation of big name publications to build reputation and 
find a job, older scholars (myself included) are vain and/or old-fashioned and 
prefer a “real” book.

For your questions at the end: as you know, TEI is an insanely huge beast. 
Nobody will be willing and/or able to implement all of it in ConTeXt. What we 
need is actual use cases: scholars coming here and building up the expertise 
via the work they’re actually doing. Preferably in smaller installments so the 
developers and advanced users can slowly prepare bits and pieces of these 
stylesheets. No-one is going to look at a 400-page edition with all kinds of 
special needs in one go; we start with a chapter, a few pages, and we make our 
way. That’s what I expected when I wrote the wiki page on TEI xml: that it 
would slowly develop into something more comprehensive. Alas, it has been 
sitting there for 11 years… Every now and then, someone will appear on the 
mailing list and say: I need four apparatuses and six parallel translations and 
bells and whistles at every paragraph, but when you ask for real examples and 
specifications, they ride out into the sunset, never to be heard of again… So: 
I’m all for continuing in this direction, but we need some continuity. (And, 
not to brag, but still: I even managed to obtain some funding a couple of years 
ago to improve the bibliographical support in ConTeXt; if you have a real 
project, you can always allocate some funding for these things). As for 
learning TEI: I really think this is absolutely inevitable; even if new formats 
will be invented in the future (and TEI has serious shortcomings for many sorts 
of manuscript traditions), they will probably do so with TEI as a starting 
point.

I’m not working on a critical edition right now, but I have done some 
preparatory work and am willing to chip in!

All best

Thomas


On 4. Jan 2022, at 18:54, Jean-Pierre Delange via 
ntg-context  wrote:

Thomas,

You are deeply right ! But this is an issue in academic edition, not only 
because students read no more at length (specially in humanities), and by 
consequence, don't buy books, but among other reasons there is a general 
problem in publishing in academic fields, pointed by Jürgen Hanneder : even 
Universities libraries don't buy all items published by scholars in a specific 
field, but publishers themselves have leveled the academic criterium by 
commercial/economic considerations. Then, scholars have to gather financial 
funding with technical computing 

Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context]

I basically agree with everything you say, Jean-Pierre. Publishers are 
modern-day robber barons, and they have been stifling and exploiting scholars 
and scholarship for many years now. Behemoths such as Brill, de Gruyter, or 
Elsevier are bankrupting libraries in the entire world. However, we scholars 
also have some responsibility: if we could agree with each other, we could 
easily bypass the big publishers and have our critical editions (in a variety 
of formats) on our university’s websites. But we don’t do that: younger 
scholars need the validation of big name publications to build reputation and 
find a job, older scholars (myself included) are vain and/or old-fashioned and 
prefer a “real” book.

For your questions at the end: as you know, TEI is an insanely huge beast. 
Nobody will be willing and/or able to implement all of it in ConTeXt. What we 
need is actual use cases: scholars coming here and building up the expertise 
via the work they’re actually doing. Preferably in smaller installments so the 
developers and advanced users can slowly prepare bits and pieces of these 
stylesheets. No-one is going to look at a 400-page edition with all kinds of 
special needs in one go; we start with a chapter, a few pages, and we make our 
way. That’s what I expected when I wrote the wiki page on TEI xml: that it 
would slowly develop into something more comprehensive. Alas, it has been 
sitting there for 11 years… Every now and then, someone will appear on the 
mailing list and say: I need four apparatuses and six parallel translations and 
bells and whistles at every paragraph, but when you ask for real examples and 
specifications, they ride out into the sunset, never to be heard of again… So: 
I’m all for continuing in this direction, but we need some continuity. (And, 
not to brag, but still: I even managed to obtain some funding a couple of years 
ago to improve the bibliographical support in ConTeXt; if you have a real 
project, you can always allocate some funding for these things). As for 
learning TEI: I really think this is absolutely inevitable; even if new formats 
will be invented in the future (and TEI has serious shortcomings for many sorts 
of manuscript traditions), they will probably do so with TEI as a starting 
point.

I’m not working on a critical edition right now, but I have done some 
preparatory work and am willing to chip in!

All best

Thomas

> On 4. Jan 2022, at 18:54, Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context 
>  wrote:
> 
> Thomas,
> 
> You are deeply right ! But this is an issue in academic edition, not only 
> because students read no more at length (specially in humanities), and by 
> consequence, don't buy books, but among other reasons there is a general 
> problem in publishing in academic fields, pointed by Jürgen Hanneder : even 
> Universities libraries don't buy all items published by scholars in a 
> specific field, but publishers themselves have leveled the academic criterium 
> by commercial/economic considerations. Then, scholars have to gather 
> financial funding with technical computing practice, which is another issue, 
> and furthermore they have to find money in order to publish at expansive cost 
> (see Brill prices, for example).
> 
> You are right about some academic tools, like those developed by Tuft 
> University (like ancient greek thesaurus : http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/ or 
> The Liddell-Scott-Jones online dictionary : 
> http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=1), but for providing such tools as 
> online digital work, there is two ways :
> 
> 1. Academic courses on TEI XML given to advanced students in order to help 
> them to produce well achieved projects (and provide manuals to do that; an 
> example here in French  : 
> http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/XML-TEI/ManuelWeb/Manuel_TEI_BVH.html)
> 
> 2. Or, there are not so numerous nests like NTG-Context discussion list ! How 
> to help Jürgen (and scholars generally) who knock at the door looking for an 
> analysis of their needs and questioning how ConTeXt may help them ?
> 
> a) They have to learn TEI XML, then
> 
> b) learn Context stylesheet !
> 
> Is it possible to gather a group of people interested by these topics ? Are 
> we starting today ?

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

Thomas,

You are deeply right ! But this is an issue in academic edition, not 
only because students read no more at length (specially in humanities), 
and by consequence, don't buy books, but among other reasons there is a 
general problem in publishing in academic fields, pointed by Jürgen 
Hanneder : even Universities libraries don't buy all items published by 
scholars in a specific field, but publishers themselves have leveled the 
academic criterium by commercial/economic considerations. Then, scholars 
have to gather financial funding with technical computing practice, 
which is another issue, and furthermore they have to find money in order 
to publish at expansive cost (see Brill prices, for example).


You are right about some academic tools, like those developed by Tuft 
University (like ancient greek thesaurus : http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/ 
or The Liddell-Scott-Jones online dictionary : 
http://stephanus.tlg.uci.edu/lsj/#eid=1), but for providing such tools 
as online digital work, there is two ways :


1. Academic courses on TEI XML given to advanced students in order to 
help them to produce well achieved projects (and provide manuals to do 
that; an example here in French  : 
http://www.bvh.univ-tours.fr/XML-TEI/ManuelWeb/Manuel_TEI_BVH.html)


2. Or, there are not so numerous nests like NTG-Context discussion list 
! How to help Jürgen (and scholars generally) who knock at the door 
looking for an analysis of their needs and questioning how ConTeXt may 
help them ?


a) They have to learn TEI XML, then

b) learn Context stylesheet !

Is it possible to gather a group of people interested by these topics ? 
Are we starting today ?


Le 04/01/2022 à 13:38, Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context a écrit :

On 3. Jan 2022, at 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context  
wrote:

While the system is ingenious
and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I am also 
critical about these
new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for sometimes 
quite simple tasks.
I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so efficiency 
is an issue.

Just for what it’s worth: I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input 
format for critical editions, for the following reasons:

1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense in 2022. 
This is not sustainable because no-one will be able to take your edition and 
continue to work on it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data.

2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is sustainable at 
least for some time so it can be processed with various types of software. TEI 
xml has become the de facto standard.

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it is in 
development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 5 or 50) years.

4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml.

Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI xml (or a 
subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it.

Thomas
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--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Ancients

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Thomas A. Schmitz via ntg-context]

> On 3. Jan 2022, at 10:43, hanneder--- via ntg-context  
> wrote:
> 
> While the system is ingenious
> and a great relief (for we do not have to work with xml directly), I am also 
> critical about these
> new demands, because they force us to use a fairly complex system for 
> sometimes quite simple tasks.
> I am a Sanskritist, we do not have huge budgets or a large staff, so 
> efficiency is an issue. 

Just for what it’s worth: I don’t see any future in developing a ConTeXt input 
format for critical editions, for the following reasons:

1. Producing a print-only version (i.e. printed book) makes no sense in 2022. 
This is not sustainable because no-one will be able to take your edition and 
continue to work on it. You have to provide a digital edition as research data.

2. This digital edition has to be in a standard format that is sustainable at 
least for some time so it can be processed with various types of software. TEI 
xml has become the de facto standard.

3. ConTeXt is not stable enough to provide such a standard format: it is in 
development; what you code today may not be compilable in 2 (or 5 or 50) years. 

4. However, ConTeXt is wonderful for processing xml. 

Hence: keep the input source and the processing separate. Code in TEI xml (or a 
subset of it) and develop a ConTeXt stylesheet to process it. 

Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 1/3/22 10:43 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
> For the last two decades edmac and its further developments (now
> reledmac) have become the standard for critical editions. In my
> experience the basic requirements for typesetting critical editions
> were and are:
>
> - footnotes have to be formatted in paragraphs
> - multiple footnotes layers stacked below the critical text must be possible
> - automatic reference to linenumbers
> - or: manual references to verse numbers
> - language specific requirements (more complicated, see below)

Hi Jürgen,

not knowing which are the specific requirements for the language you
use, I think all of these may be achieved in ConTeXt LMTX.

> In the last years new requirements have been added:
>
> - some funding institutions in the academic world practically enforce
> online editions
> - data have to be made available in TEI xml format

Sorry for asking the basic question: what are online editions?

I mean, does uploading a PDF document count as an online edition?

As you may already know, ConTeXt can deal with XML sources (see
»Kritische Editionen mit TEI xml und ConTEXt« by Thomas Schmitz (2011)
[https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=72857]).

ConTeXt might also output XML. But this is much harder in practice. All
I know about it is what Hans wrote bout this.

> This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical
> edition in ConTeXt. I was hoping for something that can be kept
> simple.

Sorry, Jürgen, but from your statements it isn’t clear to me how ConTeXt
can fit in you projects: simpler and more readable input code?

> Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.

https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition3.pdf contains line
numbers and margin notes. It can be done with ConTeXt.

https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition2.pdf contains multiple
apparatus below critical texts. It might require \setupnote[location=text].

https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/sample-edition.pdf contains multiple
apparatus at the bottom of the page.

Just in case it might help,

Pablo
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Pablo Rodriguez via ntg-context]

On 12/21/21 10:50 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:
>
> Details:
> I was able to find the article "Ediciones críticas con ConTeXt" (is
> this in use?)

Hi Jürgen,

if you mean http://www.ediciones-criticas.tk/pdf/criticas-context.pdf,
this is outdated. I hope to update it in a not so distant future...  .

> I also found out that for simple editions context already works. For
> critical editions in my field we need both footnote references based
> on linenumbers (for prose), but also references to verse number,
> which can be entered manually.
As far as I can remember linenotes are footnotes with references to line
numbers.

I don’t think it makes a difference if the line number is set
automatically by ConTeXt or the user specifies a given value.

> So far, so good. Any hints to a more sophisticated solution are highly
> welcome. (I am a simple TeX user)

I’m only a ConTeXt newbie (who has been using it for about a decade ).

There might be other solutions, but I’m afraid I don’t know which is
exactly the problem you are facing.

Sorry, but the text structure isn’t clear to me (this is independent
from the fact that I don’t understand a word from the language you may
be using).

BTW, I could only make your sample work in the following form:

\starttext
\setupnotation[linenote]
[alternative=serried,width=broad,distance=.5em,display=no]
\setupnote[linenote][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]

\definenote [variant]
\setupnotation[variant][number=no]
\setupnote[variant][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]

\definelines[slokaed][][indenting={yes, small, even},
before={\startnarrower\startlinenumbering},
after={\stoplinenumbering\stopnarrower}]

\definelines[slokaedplain][][indenting={yes, small, even},
before=\startnarrower, after=\stopnarrower]

\startslokaed
mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam yaṃ
dṛṣṭvā\linenote{dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva G\lohi{pc}{1}} vinivartante tam
\linenote{tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe
\stopslokaed

\startslokaedplain
mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam
yaṃ dṛṣṭvā\variant{2c dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva} vinivartante tam \variant{2d
tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe (2)
\stopslokaedplain
\stoptext

Just in case it might help,

Pablo
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

maya, but in the 
Indian script that we use for the
critical text the "ggo" is a ligature. So in giving variants for both 
words, we cannot just
separate samyag and gomaya, for then the ligature gg is not printed 
correctly. We also want to
quote the correct word samyag in the apparatus (which is in roman!). 
Now, to make things more
complicated the xml text should contain the correct word division, so 
we have to split samyag and
gomaya. Thus, we now have to write the first "g" twice, first as 
\skp{g}, which explains to the xml
converter that this is the logical position of the g (in the word 
samyag), and \skm{g}, which tells
TeX to print this together with the next g as the ligature gg. Because 
of this mess, we need a

modified lemma, "alt={gomaya}" so that the apparatus comes out correctly.

\app{\lem[alt={samyag},wit={ceteri}]{samya\skp{g-}}
  \rdg[wit={B2}]{samyaṃ}
  \rdg[wit={J4}]{sāṃyaṃ}
  \rdg[wit={J13,V1,N2,N19,V11}]{samyak}
  \rdg[wit={N3}]{saṃ}
  \rdg[wit={V8}]{liptaṃ}
  \rdg[wit={N21}]{ramyaṃ}
\rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1
}%
\app{\lem[wit={ceteri}, alt={gomaya}]{\skm{g-}gomaya}
  \rdg[wit={C4,C6,V3,V8,N13,N19,N21,N23,Tü,V4,V11}]{gomaya}
  \rdg[wit={V26}]{jogamaya}
\rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1
}

Please ignore the details, but perhaps you get my point. It is all 
becoming very ingenious and it
is a great relief that all this can be automatized. But it is also 
increasingly complicated to work

with and slowing down editing considerably.

This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition 
in ConTeXt. I was hoping for

something that can be kept simple.


The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions 
for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to 
be copied?


Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.

Greetings
Jürgen







- Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context 
 -

 Datum: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:39:12 +
   Von: Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context 
Antwort an: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
   Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
    An: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
    Cc: Bruce Horrocks , Idris Samawi Hamid 




On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context 
 wrote:


a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that 
is present


so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i 
suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far


I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an 
effort to educate myself I found this page 
<https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html> and thought about how 
those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take 
long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with 
his sample code.


If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those 
examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere?


The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions 
for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to 
be copied?


—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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- Ende der Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context 
 -




---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de

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--
Jean-Pierre Delange
Agrégé de philosophie
Ancients
"Few discoveries are more irritating than those which expose the pedigree of 
ideas" - Lord Acton
 % Le script suivant nécessite différents tests avec une manipulation des paramètres, afin de préciser ce qui convient le mieux à votre travail d'édition. Ce script offre le schéma de plusieurs possibilités d'affichage des notes en bas de page avec diverses possibilités simultanées. On peut affiner encore, en ajoutant d'autres 

Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Jean-Pierre Delange via ntg-context]

daily life of the editor complicated.
> 
> I hope the next example is more or less intelligible.
> We have a Sanskrit text passage that reads in transcription as:
> 
> samyaggomaya
> 
> The word consists of two elements, samyag and gomaya, but in the Indian 
> script that we use for the
> critical text the "ggo" is a ligature. So in giving variants for both words, 
> we cannot just
> separate samyag and gomaya, for then the ligature gg is not printed 
> correctly. We also want to
> quote the correct word samyag in the apparatus (which is in roman!). Now, to 
> make things more
> complicated the xml text should contain the correct word division, so we have 
> to split samyag and
> gomaya. Thus, we now have to write the first "g" twice, first as \skp{g}, 
> which explains to the xml
> converter that this is the logical position of the g (in the word samyag), 
> and \skm{g}, which tells
> TeX to print this together with the next g as the ligature gg. Because of 
> this mess, we need a
> modified lemma, "alt={gomaya}" so that the apparatus comes out correctly.
> 
> \app{\lem[alt={samyag},wit={ceteri}]{samya\skp{g-}}
>  \rdg[wit={B2}]{samyaṃ}
>  \rdg[wit={J4}]{sāṃyaṃ}
>  \rdg[wit={J13,V1,N2,N19,V11}]{samyak}
>  \rdg[wit={N3}]{saṃ}
>  \rdg[wit={V8}]{liptaṃ}
>  \rdg[wit={N21}]{ramyaṃ}
>  \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1
> }%
> \app{\lem[wit={ceteri}, alt={gomaya}]{\skm{g-}gomaya}
>  \rdg[wit={C4,C6,V3,V8,N13,N19,N21,N23,Tü,V4,V11}]{gomaya}
>  \rdg[wit={V26}]{jogamaya}
>  \rdg[wit={N22}]{{\supplied{\gap{reason=lost,unit=word,quantity=1
> }
> 
> Please ignore the details, but perhaps you get my point. It is all becoming 
> very ingenious and it
> is a great relief that all this can be automatized. But it is also 
> increasingly complicated to work
> with and slowing down editing considerably.
> 
> This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition in 
> ConTeXt. I was hoping for
> something that can be kept simple.
> 
> 
>> The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for 
>> real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?
> 
> Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.
> 
> Greetings
> Jürgen
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> - Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context  
> -
> Datum: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:39:12 +
>   Von: Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context 
> Antwort an: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
>   Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
>An: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
>Cc: Bruce Horrocks , Idris Samawi Hamid 
> 
> 
> 
>>> On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context  
>>> wrote:
>>> 
>>> a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is 
>>> present
>>> 
>>> so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose that 
>>> Idris can send you his onthology-so-far
>> 
>> I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an effort to 
>> educate myself I found this page 
>> <https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html> and thought about how those 
>> examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take long to realise 
>> that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with his sample code.
>> 
>> If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those examples 
>> and put it onto the Wiki somewhere?
>> 
>> The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for 
>> real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?
>> 
>> —
>> Bruce Horrocks
>> Hampshire, UK
>> 
>> ___
>> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to 
>> the Wiki!
>> 
>> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / 
>> http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
>> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
>> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
>> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
>> ___
> 
> 
> - Ende der Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context 
>  -
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de
> 
> ___
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the 
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net
> archive  : https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> ___

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[hanneder--- via ntg-context]

ntity=1
}

Please ignore the details, but perhaps you get my point. It is all  
becoming very ingenious and it
is a great relief that all this can be automatized. But it is also  
increasingly complicated to work

with and slowing down editing considerably.

This is why I was curious to see about the status of critical edition  
in ConTeXt. I was hoping for

something that can be kept simple.


The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions  
for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to  
be copied?


Absolutely. It would be great to see a Context solution for this.

Greetings
Jürgen







- Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context  
 -

 Datum: Fri, 24 Dec 2021 16:39:12 +
   Von: Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context 
Antwort an: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
   Betreff: Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
An: mailing list for ConTeXt users 
Cc: Bruce Horrocks , Idris Samawi Hamid  




On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context  
 wrote:


a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that  
is present


so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i  
suppose that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far


I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an  
effort to educate myself I found this page  
<https://www.djdekker.net/ledmac/examples.html> and thought about  
how those examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't  
take long to realise that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right  
with his sample code.


If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those  
examples and put it onto the Wiki somewhere?


The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions  
for real: are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to  
be copied?


—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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- Ende der Nachricht von Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context  
 -




---

Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
Deutschhausstr.12
35032 Marburg
Germany
Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Bruce Horrocks via ntg-context]

> On 24 Dec 2021, at 12:07, Hans Hagen via ntg-context  
> wrote:
> 
> a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is present
> 
> so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose that 
> Idris can send you his onthology-so-far

I'm not a user but was intrigued by Juergen's original post. In an effort to 
educate myself I found this page 
 and thought about how those 
examples might be set using ConTeXt instead. It didn't take long to realise 
that Juergen pretty much has it exactly right with his sample code.

If it would help I could have a go at setting one or two of those examples and 
put it onto the Wiki somewhere?

The only real question I have to those who produce critical editions for real: 
are the examples I've linked to useful and appropriate to be copied?

—
Bruce Horrocks
Hampshire, UK

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Hans Hagen via ntg-context]

On 12/21/2021 10:50 AM, hanneder--- via ntg-context wrote:


I just started switching after long years of typesetting with 
La-/Omega-/pdfTeX to Context and was exploring the capabilities of the 
program for typesetting critical editions. So I was
wondering whether there is any updated information on how to produce 
critical editions?


Maybe Idris has input because he made a partial inventory. There are all 
kind of mechanisms that support it but one needs to know where to look.




Details:
I was able to find the article "Ediciones críticas con ConTeXt" (is this 
in use?) as well as a
plan of and a remark concerning critTeXt: "As I learned from a thread on 
NTG-context from early 2010 we shouldn't expect a dedicated package, but 
that ConTeXt will eventually incorporate the needed functionalities."  
What is the status of that?


a lot related to numbering, referencing and notes and much of that is 
present


so if you can team up with other critical edition users ... i suppose 
that Idris can send you his onthology-so-far


Hans


-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
   tel: 038 477 53 69 | www.pragma-ade.nl | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Henning Hraban Ramm via ntg-context]

Am 21.12.21 um 11:06 schrieb Denis Maier via ntg-context:

Thanks for bringing this topic up again. I'd also be highly interested in this!


Me too as a publisher in the humanities and evangelist for ConTeXt ;)

I raised the subject at previous context meetings, but the requirements 
for criticial editions differ so much that it’s hard to tell what is 
really needed.


So it’s good that Jürgen came up with his requirements and solution 
attempts.


I remember several interesting talks about big edition projects at DANTE 
conferences and online, also of course Massi’s MEO project, and since I 
also typeset a German literature magazin called “Kritische Ausgabe” I 
always wanted to publish a book on the subject of big editions from the 
editorial and technical view...


Hraban
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?

[Denis Maier via ntg-context]

Thanks for bringing this topic up again. I'd also be highly interested in this!

Denis

> -Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
> Von: ntg-context  Im Auftrag von hanneder--
> - via ntg-context
> Gesendet: Dienstag, 21. Dezember 2021 10:51
> An: ntg-context@ntg.nl
> Cc: hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de
> Betreff: [NTG-context] Critical Editions?
> 
> 
> I just started switching after long years of typesetting with La-/Omega-
> /pdfTeX to Context and was exploring the capabilities of the program for
> typesetting critical editions. So I was wondering whether there is any
> updated information on how to produce critical editions?
> 
> 
> Details:
> I was able to find the article "Ediciones críticas con ConTeXt" (is this in 
> use?)
> as well as a plan of and a remark concerning critTeXt: "As I learned from a
> thread on NTG-context from early 2010 we shouldn't expect a dedicated
> package, but that ConTeXt will eventually incorporate the needed
> functionalities."  What is the status of that?
> 
> 
> I also found out that for simple editions context already works. For critical
> editions in my field we need both footnote references based on
> linenumbers (for prose), but also references to verse number, which can be
> entered manually. The main problem for me was to find the command
> \linenote :)
> 
> %  Setup of \linenote
> \setupnotation[linenote]
> [alternative=serried,width=broad,distance=.5em,display=no]
> \setupnote[linenote][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]
> 
> %  \variant as a footnote without reference number \definenote [variant]
> [footnote] \setupnotation[variant][number=no]
> \setupnote[variant][way=bypage,paragraph=yes,rule=off]
> 
> % Two "environments" for Sanskrit verses, one with, one without
> linenumbers.
> 
> % SANSKRIT EDITION linenumbers
> \definelines[slokaed][][indenting={yes, small, even},
> 
> before=\startnarrower\startlinenumbering,after=\stoplinenumbering\stopn
> arrower]
> 
> % SANSKRIT EDITION plain (referring to verses)
> \definelines[slokaedplain][][indenting={yes, small, even},
>before=\startnarrower,after=\stopnarrower]
> 
> With this the code of the edition can be pleasently minimalistic:
> 
> \startslokaed
> mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam
>yaṃ dṛṣṭvā\linenote{dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva G\lohi{pc}{1}} vinivartante tam
> \linenote{tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe} \stopslokaed
> 
> 
> \startslokaedplain
> mano buddhir ahaṃ prāṇās tanmātrendriyajīvanam yaṃ dṛṣṭvā\variant{2c
> dṛṣṭvā ] dṛṣṭva} vinivartante tam \variant{2d tam ] tat} upāsyam upāsmahe
> (2) \stopslokaedplain
> 
> So far, so good. Any hints to a more sophisticated solution are highly
> welcome. (I am a simple TeX
> user)
> Thanks
> Jürgen
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> 
> Prof. Dr. Juergen Hanneder
> Philipps-Universitaet Marburg
> FG Indologie u. Tibetologie
> Deutschhausstr.12
> 35032 Marburg
> Germany
> Tel. 0049-6421-28-24930
> hanne...@staff.uni-marburg.de
> 
> __
> _
> If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the
> Wiki!
> 
> maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-
> context
> webpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://context.aanhet.net archive  :
> https://bitbucket.org/phg/context-mirror/commits/
> wiki : http://contextgarden.net
> __
> _
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

On 7/22/2015 11:33 PM, tala...@fastmail.fm wrote:

Dear Pablo,

Thank you very much for what you proposed — it did work indeed. I tried to 
achieve the same at some length this afternoon. I think I understand what is 
going on in the first macro, but wouldn’t have been able to arrive at the  the 
second one for \variant, or the counter (and still don’t fully understand it). 
Thanks again.

Hans, Idris, Thomas, and others interested in critical editions: I wonder 
whether this code — with the user-facing command \variant{#1}{#2} — might be 
something that could become part of an eventual CritTeXt package.


This is rather specific code and one then ends up with options for 
either or not the ] and so which then makes it more complex. Better is 
to collect such things into a module. If there is enough we can always 
see if some mechanisms are needed.


Hans

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 07/22/2015 11:33 PM, tala...@fastmail.fm wrote:
 Dear Pablo,
 
 Thank you very much for what you proposed — it did work indeed. I
 tried to achieve the same at some length this afternoon. I think I
 understand what is going on in the first macro, but wouldn’t have been
 able to arrive at the the second one for \variant, or the counter (and
 still don’t fully understand it). Thanks again.

Dear Talal,

well, both macros come from Hans... I’m afraid I’m not smart enough for
that code ;-).

BTW, I just accidentally discovered a possible fix for the hyphenation
issue (although I’m not sure it is a bug itself).

I will open another thread to discuss that with the experts.


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Pablo Rodriguez]

On 07/22/2015 09:26 PM, Talal wrote:
 [...]
 I would like to be able to automate (through macros) the making of a
 critical apparatus' note. This is for two reasons. First, the body text
 and the lemma in the note below should be identical: as such, they
 ideally not have to be typed twice, as it introduces the possibility of
 error. Furthermore, if one manually writes out \linenote{Lemma ]
 Comment} in the body of the text, you forego the separation of content
 and style, since the separator ] has been hardcoded in.

Hi Talal,

I wonder whether creating a new thread should be the right thing to do.
The original thread is three years old.

Anyway, this may help you (it isn’t my original code):

\unexpanded\def\doVariant#1#2#3%
   {\startlinenote[#1]{#2] #3}#2\stoplinenote[#1]}

\newcounter\countvariants
\unexpanded\def\variant
   {\doglobal\increment\countvariants
\normalexpanded{\doVariant{Varia:\countvariants}}}

\starttext

\startlinenumbering

\dorecurse{20}{\variant{donald e knuth}{herman zapf} }

\stoplinenumbering

\stoptext

BTW, it has a “minor issue”: hyphenation doesn’t work in the body text
It works fine in the notes. I reported this, but I’m afraid it hasn’t
been solved.

Just in case it helps,


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Talal]

Hans Hagen pragma at wxs.nl writes:

   Actually ranges have always been supported ... 
  Maybe I should add those commands.
  Hans 

Picking up on an old thread, again. 

The document below lays out the three basic parts of a critical
apparatus of a critical edition of a text: (1) the body text; (2) the
lemma (which is the part of the body text being commented upon); and
(3) the comment on the lemma.

I would like to be able to automate (through macros) the making of a
critical apparatus' note. This is for two reasons. First, the body text
and the lemma in the note below should be identical: as such, they
ideally not have to be typed twice, as it introduces the possibility of
error. Furthermore, if one manually writes out \linenote{Lemma ]
Comment} in the body of the text, you forego the separation of content
and style, since the separator ] has been hardcoded in.

This is my attempt so far:

- - -

\setuplinenumbering[%   style=\tfxx,referencing=on, step=1,
location=outer, method=page,align=left, distance=1em,
width=0.4em,]

\definelinenote[linenote][% paragraph=yes,  frame=on,framecolor=red,
]% \setupnotation[linenote][%   alternative=serried,width=broad,
distance=.5em,  display=yes,]%

\def\variant#1#2{{#1}\linenote{{#1}] {#2}}}

\def\lemma{This is the LEMMA.} \def\comment{This is my COMMENT on the
lemma.} \def\bodytext{This is the BODY TEXT. It should be identical to
the lemma in the note: their being identical should be automated so as
to minimise errors and reduce the amount of typing.}

%% DOCUMENT

\starttext

\startlinenumbering

% EX1 \section{EX1} \variant{Lemma lemma lemma lemma lemma lemma lemma
lemma lemma lemma lemma lemma lemma} {Comment comment comment.}.\blank

% EX2 \section{EX2} \section{With start and stop} \startlinenote[one]
{\lemma ] \comment} \bodytext \stoplinenote[one]

\stoplinenumbering

\stoptext

- - -

In the above, I have been able to successfully do automate this using
the macro command variant. With this approach, however, the line
number is only that of the last word in the lemma.

To get line numbers that span more than one line, Hans instructed us to
use \startlinenote[x]...\stoplinenote[x]. However, I have not been able
to figure out how to automate the making of the lemma and comment
like was done in EX1 in such a stopstart block. I assume that the
solution lies in using \startsetups…\stopsetups + \definestartstop.
However, despite many attempts, I haven't been able to concoct the
right set of macros within that to get it working.

I'd be grateful for any help that could be offered.

Many thanks, Talal

p.s. Hans: When using \startlinenote…\stoplinenote, the addition of
some unique name (e.g. \startlinenote[one]) is obviously necessary. Is
there any way to automate this as well, as part of some sets of
macros/commands?
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[tala...@fastmail.fm]

Dear Pablo,

Thank you very much for what you proposed — it did work indeed. I tried to 
achieve the same at some length this afternoon. I think I understand what is 
going on in the first macro, but wouldn’t have been able to arrive at the  the 
second one for \variant, or the counter (and still don’t fully understand it). 
Thanks again.

Hans, Idris, Thomas, and others interested in critical editions: I wonder 
whether this code — with the user-facing command \variant{#1}{#2} — might be 
something that could become part of an eventual CritTeXt package.

With many thanks and all best wishes,
Talal

p.s. I had thought it better to add this on to the old thread, since the topic 
was contiguous. Admittedly, I’m not sure what the proper etiquette for such 
matters is.

 On 22 Jul 2015, at 21:19, Pablo Rodriguez oi...@gmx.es wrote:
 
 On 07/22/2015 09:26 PM, Talal wrote:
 [...]
 I would like to be able to automate (through macros) the making of a
 critical apparatus' note. This is for two reasons. First, the body text
 and the lemma in the note below should be identical: as such, they
 ideally not have to be typed twice, as it introduces the possibility of
 error. Furthermore, if one manually writes out \linenote{Lemma ]
 Comment} in the body of the text, you forego the separation of content
 and style, since the separator ] has been hardcoded in.
 
 Hi Talal,
 
 I wonder whether creating a new thread should be the right thing to do.
 The original thread is three years old.
 
 Anyway, this may help you (it isn’t my original code):
 
\unexpanded\def\doVariant#1#2#3%
   {\startlinenote[#1]{#2] #3}#2\stoplinenote[#1]}
 
\newcounter\countvariants
\unexpanded\def\variant
   {\doglobal\increment\countvariants
\normalexpanded{\doVariant{Varia:\countvariants}}}
 
\starttext
 
\startlinenumbering
 
\dorecurse{20}{\variant{donald e knuth}{herman zapf} }
 
\stoplinenumbering
 
\stoptext
 
 BTW, it has a “minor issue”: hyphenation doesn’t work in the body text
 It works fine in the notes. I reported this, but I’m afraid it hasn’t
 been solved.
 
 Just in case it helps,
 
 
 Pablo
 -- 
 http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: [NTG-context] CRITICAL EDITIONS MODULE

[Hans Hagen]

On 12/15/2012 5:11 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

On 12/14/2012 01:33 PM, MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ wrote:

Hello
I would get the module CritTeXt Idris Samawi. I have the documentation
but still does not appear on the ConTeXt wiki. I think it may be
interesting to develop critical editions.
Thanks to all



I'm afraid the module doesn't exist. What you have found is not the
documentation, but a description of what we hope will one day be
possible with ConTeXt. Some parts of it are possible now, but there is
no complete solution (you may want to look at
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml on the wiki.


the more interest there is and the more ce users can agree on what is 
missing the more change there is that it will show up (not as a module 
but as built in functionality)


Hans

-
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 | www.pragma-pod.nl
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Re: [NTG-context] CRITICAL EDITIONS MODULE

[Philipp Gesang]

···date: 2012-12-16, Sunday···from: Hans Hagen···

 On 12/15/2012 5:11 PM, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
 On 12/14/2012 01:33 PM, MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ wrote:
 Hello
 I would get the module CritTeXt Idris Samawi. I have the documentation
 but still does not appear on the ConTeXt wiki. I think it may be
 interesting to develop critical editions.
 Thanks to all
 
 
 I'm afraid the module doesn't exist. What you have found is not the
 documentation, but a description of what we hope will one day be
 possible with ConTeXt. Some parts of it are possible now, but there is
 no complete solution (you may want to look at
 http://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml on the wiki.
 
 the more interest there is

+1

Best
Philipp

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Re: [NTG-context] CRITICAL EDITIONS MODULE

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 12/14/2012 01:33 PM, MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ wrote:

Hello
I would get the module CritTeXt Idris Samawi. I have the documentation
but still does not appear on the ConTeXt wiki. I think it may be
interesting to develop critical editions.
Thanks to all



I'm afraid the module doesn't exist. What you have found is not the 
documentation, but a description of what we hope will one day be 
possible with ConTeXt. Some parts of it are possible now, but there is 
no complete solution (you may want to look at 
http://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml on the wiki.


Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

[If this is considered too off-topic for this list, please ignore this
mail. My main point has still something to do with ConTeXt, but I guess
this discussion shouldn't be continued on the list.]

On 07/22/2012 08:07 PM, Pablo Rodríguez wrote:

And to explain that a bit: it's not merely ugly. If all you want
is

the printed book, you don't care about the ugliness and simply
code this way to get the desired output. However, we are in the
21st century. We should be beyond the point where a critical
edition is the printed text, we should think of the typeset
result as just one way of representing the logical structure of
the edition. With a syntax as the one Wolfgang shows above, it is
difficult for most parsers to understand what is meant. Which
means most ways of representing such a structure will fail
because it's not a consistent logical construct. And yes, as
Pablo pointed out, TEI itself hasn't reached a clear conclusion
on such points, and they are specialists who have been working on
these problems for quite a while...

Thomas, many thanks for your reply.

You are the real expert on this topic. I don't really know why there
are so many people from TEI working on textual variants, but my guess
is that this might be also related to the different needs each of
them might face for each kind of texts. Probably the needs to
critically edit an ancient Greek or Latin author might differ with
the ones for an early modern (or even contemporary) English or German
author.

I'm not an expert at all, but I'm trying to put together a research 
project that would help us make some progress here. But your assumption 
is basically correct: there are many different philologies with 
different habits and norms, and TEI has to take that into account.



There is another issue that I would like to discuss. My question is
what changes in a critical edition with no page model. I don't mean
that critical editions need to be printed (it isn't a paper-based
model), but I'm not so sure they can be properly represented without
a page model. So, if I'm not wrong, it isn't only a question of data
representation, but it is related to the logic of the text structure
itself.

Some have characterized the electronic text as infinite, in
opposition to a page-based text that by definition finite. XML is a
good example of a human-readable text, but this human-readability is
relevant because of a prior machine-readability. XML is meaningful
and useful for non-coders as source code to generate a
human-understandable representation of text.

Footnotes can be displayed not using a page model, because reference
is on both the body and the note texts. A hyperlink is the right way
to link each other. So, an infinite text is not a problem. The
footnote doesn't need to be on the same page (as in a printed book),
because there is a way to go to the note and back to the text (as on
the physical book).

But linenotes are different. The reference is on the note, but not
on the body. The same line can have many linenotes. And the same word
or passage can be referenced in more than one apparatus
simultaneously. Linenotes work on a page model, because all relevant
information is given at a glance. Looking at a page, one knows which
words of text passages have relevant information on the
apparatus(es). Using the model of the infinite text, there are some
issues, unless one reconstructs the page model on a screen model (I
mean, that each portion of body text displayed in the screen has also
the apparatus(es) included on that same screen). These issues are:
which words or text passages have additional information, how to
distinguish between references to different apparatuses and how to
access to each of these different apparatuses. Maybe marking the text
with different features might be a way to distinguish them (colors,
underline or a mixture of both). And enabling contextual information
is the way to workaround these issues. But I wonder how this is
really helpful in practice.

Sorry, but I'm afraid I'm a bit skeptical about this. Probably I'm
wrong, but I think it will take some time before having an ePub file
containing the electronic version of a critical edition.


I think you misunderstand. I'm absolutely not interested in epub. I'm
not arguing against printed output per se
(or electronic representations of printed output such as pdf). But it
has severe limitations that we need to transcend. I take as an example
the text that I'm currently re-reading, Ovid's Metamorphoses in the new
edition by R. Tarrant, published in 2004. There are more than 400
complete medieval manuscripts of this text. As things stand now, with a
printed edition, no editor can investigate all of them. No editor can
record in his apparatus the readings of all the manuscripts he has
consulted. No editor can record all the data of the secondary
transmission (quotations, allusions, translations etc.) But Tarrant has
certainly much more information available than he can include in 

Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 20/07/12 22:41, Hans Hagen wrote:
 On 20-7-2012 20:21, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
 [...]
 And to explain that a bit: it's not merely ugly. If all you want is
 the printed book, you don't care about the ugliness and simply code this
 way to get the desired output. However, we are in the 21st century. We
 should be beyond the point where a critical edition is the printed text,
 we should think of the typeset result as just one way of representing
 the logical structure of the edition. With a syntax as the one Wolfgang
 shows above, it is difficult for most parsers to understand what is
 meant. Which means most ways of representing such a structure will fail
 because it's not a consistent logical construct. And yes, as Pablo
 pointed out, TEI itself hasn't reached a clear conclusion on such
 points, and they are specialists who have been working on these problems
 for quite a while...
 
 In xml one could do
 
 note tag=bla range=yessome text/note  . note tag=bla/
 
 i.e. use an empty element to indicate a matching end.

Hans,

thanks for your reply.

TEI would propose something like this for a just invented example (not
100% sure TEI encoding right, but I think it is [a cheat sheet on
critical apparatuses can be found at
http://marjorie.burghart.online.fr/?q=en/content/tei-critical-apparatus-cheatsheet]):

pEntia non sunt multiplicanda
app
  lempraeter necessitatem/lem
  rdg wit=#Hsine necessitate/lem
/app
/p

Which can be typeset with ConTeXt:

\mainlanguage[la]
\definelinenote[linenote]
\starttext
\startlinenumbering
Entia non sunt multiplicanda \startlinenote[one]{praeter necessitatem]
sine necessitate H} praeter necessitatem \stoplinenote[one].
\stoplinenumbering
\stoptext

If I'm not wrong, I'm afraid there might be a bug here, since there is
no space between «multiplicanda» and «praeter» in the body.

I don't know how ConTeXt parses XML directly, but I think unless a
counter (or an unique ID) is entered, problems might arise to
distinguish between different critical annotations. (Sorry if that was
obvious.)

BTW, how about the option to only display the number from line on the
first linenote if many linenotes coming from the same line? I only want
to know whether this feature could be considered for inclusion in
ConTeXt in the future.

Many thanks for your help,


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk


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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 20/07/12 20:21, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
 [...]
 And to explain that a bit: it's not merely ugly. If all you want is 
 the printed book, you don't care about the ugliness and simply code this 
 way to get the desired output. However, we are in the 21st century. We 
 should be beyond the point where a critical edition is the printed text, 
 we should think of the typeset result as just one way of representing 
 the logical structure of the edition. With a syntax as the one Wolfgang 
 shows above, it is difficult for most parsers to understand what is 
 meant. Which means most ways of representing such a structure will fail 
 because it's not a consistent logical construct. And yes, as Pablo 
 pointed out, TEI itself hasn't reached a clear conclusion on such 
 points, and they are specialists who have been working on these problems 
 for quite a while...

Thomas, many thanks for your reply.

You are the real expert on this topic. I don't really know why there are
so many people from TEI working on textual variants, but my guess is
that this might be also related to the different needs each of them
might face for each kind of texts. Probably the needs to critically edit
an ancient Greek or Latin author might differ with the ones for an early
modern (or even contemporary) English or German author.

There is another issue that I would like to discuss. My question is what
changes in a critical edition with no page model. I don't mean that
critical editions need to be printed (it isn't a paper-based model), but
I'm not so sure they can be properly represented without a page model.
So, if I'm not wrong, it isn't only a question of data representation,
but it is related to the logic of the text structure itself.

Some have characterized the electronic text as infinite, in opposition
to a page-based text that by definition finite. XML is a good example of
a human-readable text, but this human-readability is relevant because of
a prior machine-readability. XML is meaningful and useful for non-coders
as source code to generate a human-understandable representation of text.

Footnotes can be displayed not using a page model, because reference is
on both the body and the note texts. A hyperlink is the right way to
link each other. So, an infinite text is not a problem. The footnote
doesn't need to be on the same page (as in a printed book), because
there is a way to go to the note and back to the text (as on the
physical book).

But linenotes are different. The reference is on the note, but not on
the body. The same line can have many linenotes. And the same word or
passage can be referenced in more than one apparatus simultaneously.
Linenotes work on a page model, because all relevant information is
given at a glance. Looking at a page, one knows which words of text
passages have relevant information on the apparatus(es). Using the model
of the infinite text, there are some issues, unless one reconstructs the
page model on a screen model (I mean, that each portion of body text
displayed in the screen has also the apparatus(es) included on that same
screen). These issues are: which words or text passages have additional
information, how to distinguish between references to different
apparatuses and how to access to each of these different apparatuses.
Maybe marking the text with different features might be a way to
distinguish them (colors, underline or a mixture of both). And enabling
contextual information is the way to workaround these issues. But I
wonder how this is really helpful in practice.

Sorry, but I'm afraid I'm a bit skeptical about this. Probably I'm
wrong, but I think it will take some time before having an ePub file
containing the electronic version of a critical edition.

Just in case it might help,


Pablo
-- 
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

Just a few comments on this helpful mail:

On 07/19/2012 12:57 PM, MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ wrote:

I'm not a classical philologist, but the way ConTeXt works is much
clearer than ledmac to me (although I have only tested ledmac for a
couple of days).

I haven't looked at ledmac too closely, and of course I'm a huge fan of 
ConTeXt; nevertheless, we shouldn't promise too much: for the time 
being, ledmac provides a pretty good working environment which you can 
just use; ConTeXt offers a much better overall syntax and programming 
interface, but right now, it's more of a DIY experience when it comes to 
critical editions. There is no ready drop-in replacement for ledmac



But there are two features from ledmac that aren't available in ConTeXt
(or at least I don't know how to achieve them):

-ConTeXt numbers all linenotes that come from the same line and there
seems to be no way to limit number in the apparatus to only the first
linenote from that line.


This is something that can be fixed, I assume. The best you could do: 
make a small example file, explain what output you expect and what you 
get, and ask Hans nicely if he can implement this. Chances are he'll 
reply on a rainy Sunday afternoon, maybe, and you'll have to give him 
a couple of weeks and gently remind him. He (or the Wolfgang) will be 
willing and helpful, but of course time is a finite resource. So: the 
better and clearer and shorter your example, the more polite your 
request, the better your chances to see this implemented.



-From the way linenotes are implemented, linenotes mark a point in the
body text, but not a text passage, so it seems to be impossible to refer
to a passage that is typeset in different lines (such as 2-3).


This may be a bit more difficult, because it involves thinking about 
proper input syntax. How do you want to mark this passage? If you can 
come up with clean and unequivocal syntax and demonstrate it in an 
example, your chances aren't too bad. However, I mean really clean 
syntax, not just a kludge to give you the output you want. Ideally, have 
a look at the TEI syntax. IMO, this is the best way to go; I don't think 
TeX is a good input format for critical editions. If you can come up 
with a good mapping TEI -- ConTeXt -- output, that would facilitate 
things.


Just my personal opinions; I'm not a spokesperson for ConTeXt in any way!

All best

Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

On 20-7-2012 17:41, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:


This may be a bit more difficult, because it involves thinking about
proper input syntax. How do you want to mark this passage? If you can
come up with clean and unequivocal syntax and demonstrate it in an
example, your chances aren't too bad. However, I mean really clean
syntax, not just a kludge to give you the output you want. Ideally, have
a look at the TEI syntax. IMO, this is the best way to go; I don't think
TeX is a good input format for critical editions. If you can come up
with a good mapping TEI -- ConTeXt -- output, that would facilitate
things.


Actually ranges have always been supported (as we needed in the previous 
century already for referring to passages in texts where students had to 
comment on):


\definelinenote[linenote] % was commented but will be predefined

\starttext

\setuplinenumbering[distance=2em]
\setuplinenote [linenote] 
[distance=2em,rule=off,frame=on,framecolor=darkred]


\startlinenumbering
test test test \dorecurse{40}{test }.
\linenote {A simple linenote does not have a number range}
\startlinenote [one] {A linenote environment has a range that covers the
first line of an environment up to the last.}
\dorecurse{40}{test }.
\stoplinenote [one]
\linenote {A simple linenote does not have a number range}
\dorecurse{30}{test }\removeunwantedspaces.
\stoplinenumbering

\stoptext

but as you mention the interface is a bit problematic as start/stop is 
not nice when being nested:


\let\fromlinenote\startlinenote
\let\tolinenote  \stoplinenote

\startlinenumbering
test test test \dorecurse{40}{test }.
\linenote {A simple linenote does not have a number range}
\fromlinenote [two] {A linenote environment has a range that covers the
first line of an environment up to the last.}
\dorecurse{40}{test }.
\fromlinenote [three]{However, nesting can be mixed.}\dorecurse{40}{test }.
\tolinenote [two]
\dorecurse{40}{test }.
\tolinenote [three]
\linenote {A simple linenote does not have a number range}
\dorecurse{30}{test }\removeunwantedspaces.
\stoplinenumbering

\stoptext

Maybe I should add those commands.

Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 07/20/2012 06:45 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:

Actually ranges have always been supported (as we needed in the previous
century already for referring to passages in texts where students had to
comment on):


Yes, that's something I forgot in my mail: ask on the list, and chances 
are that it has already been implemented :-)



but as you mention the interface is a bit problematic as start/stop is
not nice when being nested:


Yes, the syntax seems a bit illogical. But there may be no really clean 
way - maybe we can call them anchors or something?


All best

Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Sietse Brouwer]

I'm trying to get straight in my head what critical-edition-related
commands are already implemented in ConTeXt.

Implemented:
(a) footnotes on specific lines, specified inline: \linenote{note text}
(b) ditto on line ranges: \startlinenote[tag]{note text} ... \stoplinenote[tag]
(c) tag a line and refer to it later in text: \someline[tag]; refer
back with \inline[tag] or \inlinerange[tag] (the former has a spurious
space before the number). The low-level backreferences are
\in[lr:b:tag] and \in[lr:e:tag]; see page-lin.mkiv
(d) ditto for line ranges: \startlines[tag] ... \stoplines[tag]; refer
to these with \inlinerange[tag].

Not implemented AFAIK:
(e) tag a line, but write the linenote on it later; at the end of the
stanza or the quotation, say. Nice to keep notes from overpowering the
text in the source code.).
(f) ditto for line ranges
This would have the added advantage that you could place tags in the
text according to its contents, and then use those tags for both
footnotes and textual references.

Hans wrote:
 but as you mention the interface is a bit problematic as start/stop is not 
 nice when being nested

Do you mean it doesn't look nice, or is it so that nesting or
interleaving \startlinenote[tag] ... \stoplinenote[tag] environments
causes problems because the commands start with \start... and
\stop...?
If looks are the only problem, I think that is a problem with
interleaving environments; no matter whether you call them
\startlinenote...\stoplinenote, or \fromlinenote...\tolinenote. And in
that case, I think consistently naming environment commands
\start...\stop... is a very valuable thing, and should get priority.

Regards,

Sietse
Sietse Brouwer
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Wolfgang Schuster]

Am 20.07.2012 um 19:33 schrieb Sietse Brouwer:

 Hans wrote:
 but as you mention the interface is a bit problematic as start/stop is not 
 nice when being nested
 
 Do you mean it doesn't look nice, or is it so that nesting or
 interleaving \startlinenote[tag] ... \stoplinenote[tag] environments
 causes problems because the commands start with \start... and
 \stop...?
 If looks are the only problem, I think that is a problem with
 interleaving environments; no matter whether you call them
 \startlinenote...\stoplinenote, or \fromlinenote...\tolinenote. And in
 that case, I think consistently naming environment commands
 \start...\stop... is a very valuable thing, and should get priority.

Hans speaks about something like this

\startone
…
\starttwo
…
\stopone
…
\stopone

where environment ranges overlap.

Wolfgang
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 20/07/12 17:41, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
 Just a few comments on this helpful mail:

Thank you very much for your reply, Thomas.

 On 07/19/2012 12:57 PM, MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ wrote:
 I'm not a classical philologist, but the way ConTeXt works is much
 clearer than ledmac to me (although I have only tested ledmac for a
 couple of days).

 I haven't looked at ledmac too closely, and of course I'm a huge fan of 
 ConTeXt; nevertheless, we shouldn't promise too much: for the time 
 being, ledmac provides a pretty good working environment which you can 
 just use; ConTeXt offers a much better overall syntax and programming 
 interface, but right now, it's more of a DIY experience when it comes to 
 critical editions. There is no ready drop-in replacement for ledmac

I must admit that I didn't get ledmac to do some of the documented
tricks. I haven't tried much, but some code didn't work.

 But there are two features from ledmac that aren't available in ConTeXt
 (or at least I don't know how to achieve them):

 -ConTeXt numbers all linenotes that come from the same line and there
 seems to be no way to limit number in the apparatus to only the first
 linenote from that line.
 
 This is something that can be fixed, I assume. The best you could do: 
 make a small example file, explain what output you expect and what you 
 get, and ask Hans nicely if he can implement this. Chances are he'll 
 reply on a rainy Sunday afternoon, maybe, and you'll have to give him 
 a couple of weeks and gently remind him. He (or the Wolfgang) will be 
 willing and helpful, but of course time is a finite resource. So: the 
 better and clearer and shorter your example, the more polite your 
 request, the better your chances to see this implemented.

My minimal example is this:

\definelinenote[lnote]
\setuplinenote[lnote][rule=off,paragraph=yes,numbercommand=,inbetween=\qquad]
\setupdescriptions[lnote][display=yes,location=serried,distance=1em]
\starttext
\startlinenumbering
This\lnote{That} is\lnote{was} imposible\lnote{possible}.
\stoplinenumbering
\stoptext

which gives as result something like:

1 This  1 was  1 impossible

And the output I would like to have is:

1 This  was  impossible

I mean, what it would be extremely useful to have is an option to avoid
that the line number and the space after (distance from
\setupdescriptions) could be disabled after the first linenote from that
same line.

 -From the way linenotes are implemented, linenotes mark a point in the
 body text, but not a text passage, so it seems to be impossible to refer
 to a passage that is typeset in different lines (such as 2-3).
 
 This may be a bit more difficult, because it involves thinking about 
 proper input syntax. How do you want to mark this passage? If you can 
 come up with clean and unequivocal syntax and demonstrate it in an 
 example, your chances aren't too bad. However, I mean really clean 
 syntax, not just a kludge to give you the output you want. Ideally, have 
 a look at the TEI syntax. IMO, this is the best way to go; I don't think 
 TeX is a good input format for critical editions. If you can come up 
 with a good mapping TEI -- ConTeXt -- output, that would facilitate 
 things.

A clear syntax might be not so easy not being a philologist at all
(classical or not). As far as I understand, ledmac syntax should be left
aside. There was a syntax proposal from Idris Hamid for this at section
4.2 http://meeting.contextgarden.net/2007/share/idris/cr-apparatus.pdf.
Isn't this syntax right?

But after just consulting the TEI Guidelines on critical apparatus, I
must admit that I would need more experience typesetting critical
editions to provide a meaningful example. Consider that even TEI has a
working group on critical apparatus to improve the TEI syntax and
possibilities.

 Just my personal opinions; I'm not a spokesperson for ConTeXt in any way!

I know these are your personal opinions.

Sorry for not being able to provide a second example and many thanks for
your help,


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk


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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 07/20/2012 08:01 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

Hans speaks about something like this

\startone
…
\starttwo
…
\stopone
…
\stopone

where environment ranges overlap.


And to explain that a bit: it's not merely ugly. If all you want is 
the printed book, you don't care about the ugliness and simply code this 
way to get the desired output. However, we are in the 21st century. We 
should be beyond the point where a critical edition is the printed text, 
we should think of the typeset result as just one way of representing 
the logical structure of the edition. With a syntax as the one Wolfgang 
shows above, it is difficult for most parsers to understand what is 
meant. Which means most ways of representing such a structure will fail 
because it's not a consistent logical construct. And yes, as Pablo 
pointed out, TEI itself hasn't reached a clear conclusion on such 
points, and they are specialists who have been working on these problems 
for quite a while...


Thomas

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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Hans Hagen]

On 20-7-2012 20:21, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:

On 07/20/2012 08:01 PM, Wolfgang Schuster wrote:

Hans speaks about something like this

\startone
…
\starttwo
…
\stopone
…
\stopone

where environment ranges overlap.


And to explain that a bit: it's not merely ugly. If all you want is
the printed book, you don't care about the ugliness and simply code this
way to get the desired output. However, we are in the 21st century. We
should be beyond the point where a critical edition is the printed text,
we should think of the typeset result as just one way of representing
the logical structure of the edition. With a syntax as the one Wolfgang
shows above, it is difficult for most parsers to understand what is
meant. Which means most ways of representing such a structure will fail
because it's not a consistent logical construct. And yes, as Pablo
pointed out, TEI itself hasn't reached a clear conclusion on such
points, and they are specialists who have been working on these problems
for quite a while...


In xml one could do

note tag=bla range=yessome text/note  . note tag=bla/

i.e. use an empty element to indicate a matching end.

Hans


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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ]

Hi Pablo..Thanks for your quick response. The truth is that I am very, very newbie working with ConTeXt (in fact I know only a few months) but I think the possibilities are extraordinary for all kinds of documents.The issue of critical issues is fairly well resolved in LaTeX with ledmac, but I think ConTeXt can have better choices (or at least easier).Thanks again. I'll try to CervanTeX.El 18/07/12, Pablo Rodríguez oi...@web.de escribió:On 18/07/12 12:09, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote: On 7/18/12 10:10 AM, MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ wrote: Hey. First, thanks to Andreas for his solution to the bibliographies. Second, a question: is there a module to produce critical editions with ConTeXt? In critical editions usually have several groups of footnotes and reference is usually made by line number. With LaTeX can be done using ledmac, but perhaps would have to customize the footnotes with ConTeXt. Thank you.  No, there isn't a single module to do this. Most of the functionality is  there (search for linenotes in the mailing list and look at the TEI  xml example on the wiki), but you will still have to write your own  style/module.Hi Manuel,As Thomas replied, linenotes is your friend. TEI XML(http://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml) shows the features of criticaledition typesetting, but you have to learn XML, TEI, ConTeXt and howConTeXt deals directly with XML files . This is a much better way towork with documents, but you'll need to learn much more.I provide here a minimal example on how ConTeXt works with linenotes:\definelinenote[lnote]\setuplinenote[lnote][rule=off,paragraph=yes,numbercommand=,inbetween=\qquad]\setupdescriptions[lnote][display=yes,location=serried,distance=1em]\starttext\startlinenumberingEn un lugar\lnote{lugar: place} de la Mancha, de cuyonombre\lnote{nombre: name} no quiero\lnote{querer: want}acordarme\lnote{acordarse: remember}.\stoplinenumbering\stoptextI'm not a classical philologist, but the way ConTeXt works is muchclearer than ledmac to me (although I have only tested ledmac for acouple of days).But there are two features from ledmac that aren't available in ConTeXt(or at least I don't know how to achieve them):-ConTeXt numbers all linenotes that come from the same line and thereseems to be no way to limit number in the apparatus to only the firstlinenote from that line.-From the way linenotes are implemented, linenotes mark a point in thebody text, but not a text passage, so it seems to be impossible to referto a passage that is typeset in different lines (such as 2-3).Apart from these two issues and since the other issues involved inlinenotes are known to the ones in this mailing list, it might be easierthat you start a thread at the Spanish TeX mailing list (I'm alsosubscribed to that list). I'm only suggesting this, since it might beeasier for you, the topic is known to the members from this list and itmay be interesting for the members from ES-TEX (I apologize if I'm wrong).I hope this might help,Pablo-- http://www.ousia.tk___If your question is of interest to others as well, please add an entry to the Wiki!maillist : ntg-context@ntg.nl / http://www.ntg.nl/mailman/listinfo/ntg-contextwebpage  : http://www.pragma-ade.nl / http://tex.aanhet.netarchive  : http://foundry.supelec.fr/projects/contextrev/wiki : http://contextgarden.net___-- Manuel González Suárez
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Thomas A. Schmitz]

On 7/18/12 10:10 AM, MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ wrote:

Hey.
First, thanks to Andreas for his solution to the bibliographies.
Second, a question: is there a module to produce critical editions with
ConTeXt? In critical editions usually have several groups of footnotes
and reference is usually made by line number. With LaTeX can be done
using ledmac, but perhaps would have to customize the footnotes with
ConTeXt.
Thank you.

critical editions


No, there isn't a single module to do this. Most of the functionality is 
there (search for linenotes in the mailing list and look at the TEI 
xml example on the wiki), but you will still have to write your own 
style/module.


Best wishes

Thomas
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Re: [NTG-context] Critical editions with ConTeXt

[Pablo Rodríguez]

On 18/07/12 12:09, Thomas A. Schmitz wrote:
 On 7/18/12 10:10 AM, MANUEL GONZALEZ SUAREZ wrote:
 Hey.
 First, thanks to Andreas for his solution to the bibliographies.
 Second, a question: is there a module to produce critical editions with
 ConTeXt? In critical editions usually have several groups of footnotes
 and reference is usually made by line number. With LaTeX can be done
 using ledmac, but perhaps would have to customize the footnotes with
 ConTeXt.
 Thank you.
 
 No, there isn't a single module to do this. Most of the functionality is 
 there (search for linenotes in the mailing list and look at the TEI 
 xml example on the wiki), but you will still have to write your own 
 style/module.

Hi Manuel,

As Thomas replied, linenotes is your friend. TEI XML
(http://wiki.contextgarden.net/TEI_xml) shows the features of critical
edition typesetting, but you have to learn XML, TEI, ConTeXt and how
ConTeXt deals directly with XML files . This is a much better way to
work with documents, but you'll need to learn much more.

I provide here a minimal example on how ConTeXt works with linenotes:

\definelinenote[lnote]
\setuplinenote[lnote][rule=off,paragraph=yes,numbercommand=,inbetween=\qquad]
\setupdescriptions[lnote][display=yes,location=serried,distance=1em]
\starttext
\startlinenumbering
En un lugar\lnote{lugar: place} de la Mancha, de cuyo
nombre\lnote{nombre: name} no quiero\lnote{querer: want}
acordarme\lnote{acordarse: remember}.
\stoplinenumbering
\stoptext

I'm not a classical philologist, but the way ConTeXt works is much
clearer than ledmac to me (although I have only tested ledmac for a
couple of days).

But there are two features from ledmac that aren't available in ConTeXt
(or at least I don't know how to achieve them):

-ConTeXt numbers all linenotes that come from the same line and there
seems to be no way to limit number in the apparatus to only the first
linenote from that line.

-From the way linenotes are implemented, linenotes mark a point in the
body text, but not a text passage, so it seems to be impossible to refer
to a passage that is typeset in different lines (such as 2-3).

Apart from these two issues and since the other issues involved in
linenotes are known to the ones in this mailing list, it might be easier
that you start a thread at the Spanish TeX mailing list (I'm also
subscribed to that list). I'm only suggesting this, since it might be
easier for you, the topic is known to the members from this list and it
may be interesting for the members from ES-TEX (I apologize if I'm wrong).

I hope this might help,


Pablo
-- 
http://www.ousia.tk
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Re: [NTG-context] critical editions in context / arabtex

[Hans Hagen]

Thomas A.Schmitz wrote:
Thanks Hans, but it's primarily edmac that I'm interested in, not 
arabtex. Could the edmac macros just be part of a Context module?
not so much edmac, but similar functionality; as idris suggests: just provide a 
request for functionality + examples; think about what you want in context (or 
your docs) and not so much of what edmac does. (thinsg like configurable 
footnotes are already there)

Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] critical editions in context

[h h extern]

Thomas A.Schmitz wrote:
Sorry, hit the send button by accident.
OK, I feel guilty resurrecting this stale thread, but I can't resist 
asking again.

I found this in m-arabtex.tex:
%\pushmacro\edmacloaded   \let \edmacloaded   \undefined
and later
%\popmacro\edmacloaded
Both lines are commented out, so I'm still wondering if edmac will work 
with ConTeXt out of the box.

The absolute basics that are needed for critical editions are:
1. Capability to have footnotes with reference to line-number instead of 
counter. These notes must not end with a newline character (see 
ASCII-art at end of post), but must provide the possibility to have 
several on one line. These notes must not flow, they have to stay on the 
same page as the reference. Horizontal tolerance can be set to very 
sloppy to achieve this

2. Must be possible to apply a format like \bf vel. sim. to the reference.
3. Within these notes, it should be possible to refer to other line 
numbers.

4. Nice, but not quite essential: possibility to have notes in more than 
one column.

5. Not absolutely basic, but important for serious work: have more than 
one set of notes referring to the same passage.

Is this possible in ConTeXt out of the box? If not, I'd be willing to 
roll up my sleeves and help, but would like to know which would be a 
good starting point.

I looked at core-ltn.tex. I'm not sure if core-nnt and page-nnt refer to 
core-not and page-not; I couldn't find anything appropriate in these files.
the files are in the main distribution for some time; i'm still waiting for 
idris to test them; following is my test file (seems that it has a patch -)

% interface=en
\unprotect
\def\dohandlelinenote#1#2#3%
  {\bgroup
   \expanded{\beforesplitstring#2}\at--\to\linenotelinenumber
   \ifnum\linenotelinenumber=\linenumber\relax
  \def\linenotelinenumber##1{#2}%
  \setupnote[#1]
[\c!numbercommand=\linenotelinenumber,
 \c!textcommand=\gobbleoneargument]%
  \setnote[#1]{#3}%
   \fi
   \egroup}
\protect
\starttext
\tracelinenotestrue
\setuppapersize[S6][S6]
\setuplayout[width=middle,height=middle,margin=1.5cm,footer=0pt,header=1cm]
\setupcolors[state=start]
\setuptyping[option=color]
\definelinenote[extralinenote][rule=off,frame=on,framecolor=darkgreen]
\setuplinenote [linenote] [rule=off,frame=on,framecolor=darkred,n=2]
\showframe
\startbuffer[test]
\doglobal\increment\DummyNumber % else dups due to reuse
\startlinenumbering[100]
test \linenote {oeps} test test test test test test
test \startlinenote [well:\DummyNumber] {oeps} test test test test test test
test \linenote {oeps} test test test test test test
test \extralinenote {oeps} test test test test test test
test \linenote {oeps} test test test test test test
test \extralinenote {oeps} test test test test test test
test \stoplinenote [well] test test test test test test
\stoplinenumbering
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[test] \getbuffer[test]} \page
\startbuffer[setup]
\setuplinenumbering
  [align=left]
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[setup] \getbuffer[setup,test]} \page
\startbuffer[setup]
\setuplinenumbering
  [width=1em,
   align=left]
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[setup] \getbuffer[setup,test]} \page
\startbuffer[setup]
\setuplinenumbering
  [width=2em,
   distance=.5em,
   align=left]
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[setup] \getbuffer[setup,test]} \page
\startbuffer[setup]
\setuplinenumbering
  [width=2em,
   align=middle]
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[setup] \getbuffer[setup,test]} \page
\startbuffer[setup]
\setuplinenumbering
  [conversion=romannumerals,
   start=1,
   step=1,
   location=text,
   style=slanted,
   color=blue,
   width=1.5em]
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[setup] \startnarrower\getbuffer[setup,test]\stopnarrower} \page
\startbuffer[setup]
\setuplinenumbering
  [width=4em,
   left=--,
   right=--,
   align=middle]
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[setup] \getbuffer[setup,test]} \page
\startbuffer[setup-1]
\setuplinenumbering
  [style=\bfxx,
   command=\WatchThis]
\stopbuffer
\startbuffer[setup-2]
\def\WatchThis#1%
  {\ifodd\linenumber
 \definecolor[linecolor][red]%
   \else
 \definecolor[linecolor][green]%
   \fi
   \inframed
 [offset=1pt,frame=off,background=color,backgroundcolor=linecolor]
 {#1}}
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[setup-1,setup-2] \getbuffer[setup-1,setup-2,test]} \page
\startbuffer[setup-1]
\setuplinenumbering
  [location=inright,
   style=\bfxx,
   command=\WatchThis]
\stopbuffer
{\typebuffer[setup-1] \getbuffer[setup-1,setup-2,test]} \page
\stoptext

Best
Thomas
Example what should be possible:
1 This manual is about ConTEXt, a system for typesetting documents.
2 Central element in this name is the word TEX because the typographical
3 programming language TEX is the base for ConTEXt. People who are used
4 to TEX will probably identify this manual as a TEX document. They 
recognise
5 the use of \. One may also notice that the way pararaphs are broken 
into lines
6 is often better than in the avarage typesetting system.

1 manual A: handbook B 2 name 

Re: [NTG-context] critical editions in context / arabtex

[Idris Samawi Hamid]

On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:30:38 +0100, Thomas A.Schmitz 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thanks Hans, but it's primarily edmac that I'm interested in, not 
arabtex. Could the edmac macros just be part of a Context module?
I actually considered that. During my own pre-ConTeXt work I dived deep 
into the EDMAC code and made changes so that I could do real 100% 
right-to-left critical editions. EDMAC has its own OTR, however, which 
makes it difficult to merely plug it in to ConTeXt or even LaTeX (though 
there has been a recent port to LaTeX).

As soon as I finish my present book project this month (I'm really 
behind-) I'll be working on the critical edition business as well (I have 
to finish a critical edition for Springer Verlag (formerly Kluwer) this 
spring); maybe we can share notes and bother Hans together;-)

Idris
--
Professor Idris Samawi Hamid
Department of Philosophy
Colorado State University
Fort Collins, CO 80523
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Re: [NTG-context] critical editions in context / arabtex

[Hans Hagen]

Idris Samawi Hamid wrote:
On Tue, 15 Mar 2005 09:30:38 +0100, Thomas A.Schmitz 
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

Thanks Hans, but it's primarily edmac that I'm interested in, not 
arabtex. Could the edmac macros just be part of a Context module?

I actually considered that. During my own pre-ConTeXt work I dived deep 
into the EDMAC code and made changes so that I could do real 100% 
right-to-left critical editions. EDMAC has its own OTR, however, which 
makes it difficult to merely plug it in to ConTeXt or even LaTeX (though 
there has been a recent port to LaTeX).

As soon as I finish my present book project this month (I'm really 
behind-) I'll be working on the critical edition business as well (I 
have to finish a critical edition for Springer Verlag (formerly Kluwer) 
this spring); maybe we can share notes and bother Hans together;-)
sounds ok to me; also keep in mind that much of what you want is already 
there!
Hans
-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] critical editions in context / arabtex

[h h extern]

Thomas A.Schmitz wrote:
OK, I feel guilty resurrecting this stale thread, but I can't resist 
asking again.

I found this in m-arabtex.tex:
%\pushmacro\edmacloaded   \let \edmacloaded   \undefined
and later
%\popmacro\edmacloaded
Both lines are commented out, so I'm still wondering if
i talked with Klaus Lagally at eurotex and he will make arabtex a bit more 
context friendly: a few more hooks, context aware loading, etc

he will also look into the recent problems (may hav eto do with loading heberw 
(no longer needed, part of arabtex kernel)

Hans
-
  Hans Hagen | PRAGMA ADE
  Ridderstraat 27 | 8061 GH Hasselt | The Netherlands
 tel: 038 477 53 69 | fax: 038 477 53 74 | www.pragma-ade.com
 | www.pragma-pod.nl
-
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Re: [NTG-context] critical editions in context

[Thomas A . Schmitz]

OK, I feel guilty resurrecting this stale thread, but I can't resist 
asking again.

I found this in m-arabtex.tex:
%\pushmacro\edmacloaded   \let \edmacloaded   \undefined
and later
%\popmacro\edmacloaded
Both lines are commented out, so I'm still wondering if
The absolute basics that are needed for critical editions are:
1. Capability to have footnotes with reference to line-number instead 
of counter. These notes must not end with a newline character (see 
ASCII-art at end of post), but must provide the possibility to have 
several on one line. These notes must not flow, they have to stay on 
the same page as the reference. Horizontal tolerance can be set to very 
sloppy to achieve this

2. Must be possible to apply a format like \bf vel. sim. to the 
reference.

3. Within these notes, it should be possible to refer to other line 
numbers.

4. Nice, but not quite essential: possibility to have notes in more 
than one column.

5. Not absolutely basic, but important for serious work: have more than 
one set of notes referring to the same passage.

Is this possible in ConTeXt out of the box? If not, I'd be willing to 
roll up my sleeves and help, but would like to know which would be a 
good starting point.

I looked at core-ltn.tex. I'm not sure if core-nnt and page-nnt refer 
to core-not and page-not; I couldn't find anything appropriate in these 
files.

Best
Thomas
Example what should be possible:
1 This manual is about ConTEXt, a system for typesetting documents.
2 Central element in this name is the word TEX because the typographical
3 programming language TEX is the base for ConTEXt. People who are used
4 to TEX will probably identify this manual as a TEX document. They 
recognise
5 the use of \. One may also notice that the way pararaphs are broken 
into lines
6 is often better than in the avarage typesetting system.

1 manual A: handbook B 2 name A: concept B,C typographical A:
computational B, euphoric C   4 manual A: handbook B (as in l. 1)
On Sep 23, 2003, at 5:46 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
At 09:12 23/09/2003 -0600, you wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Thomas A.Schmitz wrote:
 In March/April 2002, Hans and Idris had an interesting exchange 
about
 the topic critical editions in context here in ntg-context; the 
main
 question was whether the functionality of edmac could be 
implemented in
 context. I'd be curious to know whether anything came out of it, I
 couldn't find any follow-up.

Hans has already done some preliminary work in this direction. I 
could not
completely test it because the implementations used hooks from e-TeX. 
Now
that eOmega/Aleph is available I will be able to be a bit more 
proactive in
testing/suggesting things.

I don't remember if Hans added the xperimental stuff for critical 
editions
to the latest beta. But I'm going to have to start testing this stuff 
soon,
because the next issue of our journal is supposed to have a couple of 
small
Arabic critical editions in it.
if i'm right, you have somewhere:
\input page-nnt
\input core-nnt
\input core-lnt
(multiple footnote classes, arbitrary footnote placement, line refs in 
footnotes and so)

Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] critical editions in context

[Thomas A . Schmitz]

Sorry, hit the send button by accident.
OK, I feel guilty resurrecting this stale thread, but I can't resist 
asking again.

I found this in m-arabtex.tex:
%\pushmacro\edmacloaded   \let \edmacloaded   \undefined
and later
%\popmacro\edmacloaded
Both lines are commented out, so I'm still wondering if edmac will work 
with ConTeXt out of the box.

The absolute basics that are needed for critical editions are:
1. Capability to have footnotes with reference to line-number instead 
of counter. These notes must not end with a newline character (see 
ASCII-art at end of post), but must provide the possibility to have 
several on one line. These notes must not flow, they have to stay on 
the same page as the reference. Horizontal tolerance can be set to very 
sloppy to achieve this

2. Must be possible to apply a format like \bf vel. sim. to the 
reference.

3. Within these notes, it should be possible to refer to other line 
numbers.

4. Nice, but not quite essential: possibility to have notes in more 
than one column.

5. Not absolutely basic, but important for serious work: have more than 
one set of notes referring to the same passage.

Is this possible in ConTeXt out of the box? If not, I'd be willing to 
roll up my sleeves and help, but would like to know which would be a 
good starting point.

I looked at core-ltn.tex. I'm not sure if core-nnt and page-nnt refer 
to core-not and page-not; I couldn't find anything appropriate in these 
files.

Best
Thomas
Example what should be possible:
1 This manual is about ConTEXt, a system for typesetting documents.
2 Central element in this name is the word TEX because the typographical
3 programming language TEX is the base for ConTEXt. People who are used
4 to TEX will probably identify this manual as a TEX document. They 
recognise
5 the use of \. One may also notice that the way pararaphs are broken 
into lines
6 is often better than in the avarage typesetting system.

1 manual A: handbook B 2 name A: concept B,C typographical A:
computational B, euphoric C   4 manual A: handbook B (as in l. 1)
On Sep 23, 2003, at 5:46 PM, Hans Hagen wrote:
At 09:12 23/09/2003 -0600, you wrote:
Hi Thomas,
Thomas A.Schmitz wrote:
 In March/April 2002, Hans and Idris had an interesting exchange 
about
 the topic critical editions in context here in ntg-context; the 
main
 question was whether the functionality of edmac could be 
implemented in
 context. I'd be curious to know whether anything came out of it, I
 couldn't find any follow-up.

Hans has already done some preliminary work in this direction. I 
could not
completely test it because the implementations used hooks from e-TeX. 
Now
that eOmega/Aleph is available I will be able to be a bit more 
proactive in
testing/suggesting things.

I don't remember if Hans added the xperimental stuff for critical 
editions
to the latest beta. But I'm going to have to start testing this stuff 
soon,
because the next issue of our journal is supposed to have a couple of 
small
Arabic critical editions in it.
if i'm right, you have somewhere:
\input page-nnt
\input core-nnt
\input core-lnt
(multiple footnote classes, arbitrary footnote placement, line refs in 
footnotes and so)

Hans
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Re: [NTG-context] critical editions in context

[Idris S Hamid]

Hi Thomas,

Thomas A.Schmitz wrote:

 In March/April 2002, Hans and Idris had an interesting exchange about
 the topic critical editions in context here in ntg-context; the main
 question was whether the functionality of edmac could be implemented in
 context. I'd be curious to know whether anything came out of it, I
 couldn't find any follow-up.

Hans has already done some preliminary work in this direction. I could not
completely test it because the implementations used hooks from e-TeX. Now
that eOmega/Aleph is available I will be able to be a bit more proactive in
testing/suggesting things.

I don't remember if Hans added the xperimental stuff for critical editions
to the latest beta. But I'm going to have to start testing this stuff soon,
because the next issue of our journal is supposed to have a couple of small
Arabic critical editions in it.

Best
Idris

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