Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-05-04 Thread Pauli Virtanen
26.04.2012 03:11, Travis Oliphant kirjoitti: [clip] It would be nice if every pull request created a message to this list. Is that even possible? Unidirectional forwarding is possible, for instance using Github's API, https://github.com/pv/github-pull-request-fwd Github itself doesn't

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-26 Thread Paul Hobson
We're kind of drifting again here, but... Remember when all this discussion happened on usenet? Perhaps we're in yet another awkward transition period and soon all email list-type discussions will be on Github, Bitbucket, StackOverflow (e.g. pandas), etc. There's advantages and disadvantages to

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-26 Thread Ralf Gommers
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 6:37 AM, srean srean.l...@gmail.com wrote: On something else that was brought up: I do not consider myself competent/prepared enough to take on development, but it is not the case that I have _never_ felt the temptation. What I have found intimidating and styming is

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-26 Thread Chris Barker
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Ralf Gommers Perhaps a more formal development release system could help here. IIUC, numpy pretty much has two things: This is a good idea - not for development releases but for master. Building nightly/weekly binaries would help more people try out new

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-26 Thread Ralf Gommers
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 7:02 PM, Chris Barker chris.bar...@noaa.gov wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:18 PM, Ralf Gommers Perhaps a more formal development release system could help here. IIUC, numpy pretty much has two things: This is a good idea - not for development releases but for

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-26 Thread srean
Patches languishing on Trac is a real problem. The issue here is not at all about not wanting those patches, Oh yes I am sure of that, in the past it had not been clear what more is necessary to get them pulled in, or how to go about satisfying the requirements. The document you mailed on the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: I admit to a certain curiosity about your own

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Charles R Harris
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:07 AM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 4:02 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Charles R Harris

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Gael Varoquaux
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 06:03:25AM -0600, Charles R Harris wrote: Well, you have already appealed to the authority of greater experience, so it's a bit late to declare disinterest in the subject ;) I mean, at this point I really would like to see how big your FOSS is. Chuck, I am not sure that

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:03 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: That is one of the reasons that the smaller scikits attract people, they have more freedom to do what they want and fewer people to answer to. Scipy also has some of that advantage because there are a number of

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Travis Oliphant
I don't agree here. People work on open source to scratch an itch, so the process of making a contribution needs to be easy. Widespread veto makes it more difficult and instead of opening up the process, closes it down. There is less freedom, not more. That is one of the reasons that the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: I don't agree here. People work on open source to scratch an itch, so the process of making a contribution needs to be easy. Widespread veto makes it more difficult and instead of opening up the process, closes it

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Andreas H.
Do you agree that Numpy has not been very successful in recruiting and maintaining new developers compared to its large user-base? Compared to - say - Sympy? Why do you think this is? I don't know about SymPy. But in my view (and I'm just a typical user of NumPy), numpy seems to be at the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Alan G Isaac
On 4/25/2012 4:51 PM, Andreas H. wrote: I would assume that most users see numpy as infrastructure, they write their own code on top of it. As a normal user of numpy, I wouldn't know where it would need improvement to suit my needs because it already does all I need. (Okay, masked arrays are

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Adam Hughes
I too have to agree with Andreas. I have been using Numpy for years in my work, but am not versed in C so I don't even understand what numpy is doing under the hood. I too would only be able to contribute to the code at the python level, or as Andreas said, at improving SciPy packages and other

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Travis Oliphant
Do you agree that Numpy has not been very successful in recruiting and maintaining new developers compared to its large user-base? Compared to - say - Sympy? Why do you think this is? I think it's mostly because it's infrastructure that is a means to an end. I certainly wasn't

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: Do you agree that Numpy has not been very successful in recruiting and maintaining new developers compared to its large user-base? Compared to - say - Sympy? Why do you think this is? I think it's mostly

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread josef . pktd
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: Do you agree that Numpy has not been very successful in recruiting and maintaining new developers compared to its large user-base?

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Benjamin Root
On Wednesday, April 25, 2012, Matthew Brett wrote: Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.iojavascript:; wrote: Do you agree that Numpy has not been very successful in recruiting and maintaining new developers compared to its large user-base?

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 1:35 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 9:39 AM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: I don't agree here. People work on open source to scratch an itch, so the process of making a contribution needs to be easy.

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread David Cournapeau
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 10:54 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.comwrote: Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: Do you agree that Numpy has not been very successful in recruiting and maintaining new developers compared to its large

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:24 PM, josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: Do you agree that Numpy has not been very successful in

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread josef . pktd
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 7:08 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 3:24 PM,  josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 5:54 PM, Matthew Brett matthew.br...@gmail.com wrote: Hi, On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Travis Oliphant

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Travis Oliphant
On Apr 25, 2012, at 7:18 PM, josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: Except for the big changes like NA and datetime, I think the debate is pretty boring. The main problem that I see for discussing technical issues is whether there are many developers really interested in commenting on code and

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Benjamin Root
On Wednesday, April 25, 2012, Travis Oliphant wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 7:18 PM, josef.p...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: Except for the big changes like NA and datetime, I think the debate is pretty boring. The main problem that I see for discussing technical issues is whether

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Jason Grout
On 4/25/12 8:11 PM, Travis Oliphant wrote: On Apr 25, 2012, at 7:18 PM, josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: Except for the big changes like NA and datetime, I think the debate is pretty boring. The main problem that I see for discussing technical issues is whether there are many developers really

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Puneeth Chaganti
On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: [snip] It would be nice if every pull request created a message to this list.    Is that even possible? That is definitely possible and shouldn't be too hard to do, like Jason said. But that can potentially cause

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Jason Grout
On 4/25/12 11:08 PM, Puneeth Chaganti wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Travis Oliphanttra...@continuum.io wrote: [snip] It would be nice if every pull request created a message to this list.Is that even possible? That is definitely possible and shouldn't be too hard to do, like

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread srean
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 11:08 PM, Puneeth Chaganti puncha...@gmail.com wrote: On Thu, Apr 26, 2012 at 6:41 AM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: [snip] It would be nice if every pull request created a message to this list.    Is that even possible? That is definitely possible and

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-25 Thread Fernando Perez
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 6:28 PM, Benjamin Root ben.r...@ou.edu wrote: It would be nice if every pull request created a message to this list.  Is that even possible? -Travis This ha been a concern of mine for matplotlib as well.  The closest I can come is to set up an RSS feed, but all the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Ralf Gommers
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:46 AM, Chris Barker chris.bar...@noaa.govwrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: Right now we are trying to balance difficult things: stable releases with experimental development. Perhaps a more formal development

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.comwrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za wrote: If you are referring to the traditional concept of a fork, and not to the type we frequently make on GitHub, then I'm surprised that no

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Pierre Haessig
Hi, Le 24/04/2012 15:14, Charles R Harris a écrit : a) All arrays should be implicitly masked, even if the mask isn't initially allocated. The maskna keyword can then be removed, taking with it the sense that there are two kinds of arrays. From my lazy user perspective, having masked and

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread josef . pktd
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Pierre Haessig pierre.haes...@crans.org wrote: Hi, Le 24/04/2012 15:14, Charles R Harris a écrit : a) All arrays should be implicitly masked, even if the mask isn't initially allocated. The maskna keyword can then be removed, taking with it the sense that

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:14 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za wrote: If you are referring to the traditional concept

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:25 AM, josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Pierre Haessig pierre.haes...@crans.org wrote: Hi, Le 24/04/2012 15:14, Charles R Harris a écrit : a) All arrays should be implicitly masked, even if the mask isn't initially allocated. The

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 12:12 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:25 AM, josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Pierre Haessig pierre.haes...@crans.org wrote: Hi, Le 24/04/2012 15:14, Charles R Harris a écrit : a)

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Benjamin Root
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:25 AM, josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Pierre Haessig pierre.haes...@crans.org wrote: Hi, Le 24/04/2012 15:14, Charles R Harris a écrit : a)

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:43 PM, Pierre Haessig pierre.haes...@crans.org wrote: If the idea of having two payloads is to avoid a maximum of skipna friends extra keywords, I would like it much. My feeling with my small experience with R is that I end up calling every function with a different

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread josef . pktd
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:35 PM, Benjamin Root ben.r...@ou.edu wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:12 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:25 AM, josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:43 AM, Pierre Haessig pierre.haes...@crans.org

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Stéfan van der Walt
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: The advantage of nans, I suppose, is that they are in the hardware and so Why are we having a discussion on NAN's in a thread on consensus? This is a strong indicator of the problem we're facing. Stéfan

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Benjamin Root
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 3:23 PM, Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.zawrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: The advantage of nans, I suppose, is that they are in the hardware and so Why are we having a discussion on NAN's in a thread on

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
2012/4/24 Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: The advantage of nans, I suppose, is that they are in the hardware and so Why are we having a discussion on NAN's in a thread on consensus? This is a strong

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/4/24 Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: The advantage of nans, I suppose, is that they are in the hardware and

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Stéfan van der Walt
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Why are we having a discussion on NAN's in a thread on consensus? This is a strong indicator of the problem we're facing. We seem to have a consensus regarding interest in the topic. For the benefit of those of

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Travis Oliphant
Thanks for the reminder, Stefan and keeping us on track. It is very helpful to those trying to sort through the messages to keep the discussions to one subject per thread. -Travis On Apr 24, 2012, at 2:23 PM, Stéfan van der Walt wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Charles R Harris

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Travis Oliphant
On Apr 24, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Stéfan van der Walt wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Why are we having a discussion on NAN's in a thread on consensus? This is a strong indicator of the problem we're facing. We seem to have a consensus

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Travis Oliphant
On Apr 24, 2012, at 5:52 PM, Matthew Brett wrote: Hi, On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: 2012/4/24 Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: The advantage

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
2012/4/24 Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Why are we having a discussion on NAN's in a thread on consensus? This is a strong indicator of the problem we're facing. We seem to have a consensus

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 5:24 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.iowrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 6:01 PM, Stéfan van der Walt wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Why are we having a discussion on NAN's in a thread on consensus? This

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Stéfan van der Walt
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: But a right to veto doesn't automatically extend to everyone who happens to have an interest in a topic. The time has long gone when we simply hacked on NumPy for our own benefit; if you will, NumPy users are

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Benjamin Root
On Tuesday, April 24, 2012, Matthew Brett wrote: Hi, On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:25 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com javascript:; wrote: 2012/4/24 Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za javascript:; On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:12 AM, Charles R Harris

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 12:49 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: I think we adhere to these pretty well already, the problem is with the word 'everyone'. I grew up in Massachusetts where town meetings were a tradition. At those meetings the townsfolk voted on the budget,

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Travis Oliphant
On Apr 24, 2012, at 7:16 PM, Stéfan van der Walt wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 4:49 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: But a right to veto doesn't automatically extend to everyone who happens to have an interest in a topic. This is not my view, but it is Charles view

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za wrote: If you are referring to the traditional concept of a

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Stéfan van der Walt

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 11:35 PM, Fernando

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Fernando Perez
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: I admit to a certain curiosity about your own involvement in FOSS projects, and I know I'm not alone in this. Google shows several years of discussion on Monotone, but I have no idea what your contributions were

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:56 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: I admit to a certain curiosity about your own involvement in FOSS projects, and I know I'm not alone in this. Google shows several

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Fernando Perez
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Fernando, I'm not checking credentials, I'm curious. Well, at least I think that an inquisitive query about someone's background, phrased like that, can be very easily misread. I can only speak for myself, but I

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread josef . pktd
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 11:28 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Fernando, I'm not checking credentials, I'm curious. Well, at least I think that an inquisitive query about someone's background,

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Fernando, I'm not checking credentials, I'm curious. Well, at least I think that an inquisitive query about someone's background,

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Travis Oliphant
On Apr 24, 2012, at 9:41 PM, Matthew Brett wrote: Hi, On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:12 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 6:56 PM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 2:14 PM, Charles R Harris

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Fernando Perez
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:50 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Turnover is a problem with open source, and no matter how much discussion there is, if people aren't doing the work the whole thing sort of peters out. That's very true, and I hope that by building a friendly

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Travis Oliphant
On Apr 24, 2012, at 10:50 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Fernando, I'm not checking credentials, I'm curious. Well, at least I

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread josef . pktd
On Wed, Apr 25, 2012 at 12:25 AM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 10:50 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Charles R Harris
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.iowrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 10:50 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.comwrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 8:02 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote:

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Travis Oliphant
On Apr 25, 2012, at 12:02 AM, Charles R Harris wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:25 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: On Apr 24, 2012, at 10:50 PM, Charles R Harris wrote: On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 9:28 PM, Fernando Perez fperez@gmail.com wrote: On Tue, Apr 24,

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Fernando Perez
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 10:02 PM, josef.p...@gmail.com wrote: Sorry that I missed this part of numpy history, I always had the impression that numpy is run by a community led by Chuck and the young guys, David, Pauli, Stefan, Pierre; and Robert on the mailing list . (But I came late, and am

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Gael Varoquaux
On Tue, Apr 24, 2012 at 05:59:09PM -0600, Charles R Harris wrote: Travis, if you are playing the BDFL role, then just make the darn decision and remove the code so we can get on with life. As it is you go back and forth and that does none of us any good, you're a big guy and you're rocking the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-24 Thread Travis Oliphant
I've given several talks on the subject, but I don't think I've ever written a blog-post about it. A reasonable history does exist in the beginning of the Guide to NumPy which is still available for free at http://www.tramy.us/numpybook.pdf -Travis On Apr 25, 2012, at 12:18 AM,

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: If you hang around big FOSS projects, you'll see the word consensus come up a lot. For example, the glibc steering committee recently dissolved itself in favor of governance directly by the consensus of the people

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Nathaniel Smith
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: If you hang around big FOSS projects, you'll see the word consensus come up a lot. For example, the glibc steering committee recently

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 12:33 PM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 1:04 AM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: Linux is Linus' private tree. Everything that goes in is his decision, everything that stays out is his decision. Of course, he

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Travis Oliphant
Linux: Technically, everything you say is true. In practice, good luck convincing Linus or a subsystem maintainer to accept your patch when other people are raising substantive complaints. Here's an email I googled up in a few moments, in which Linus yells at people for trying to submit a

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Matthew Brett
Hi, On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: Linux: Technically, everything you say is true. In practice, good luck convincing Linus or a subsystem maintainer to accept your patch when other people are raising substantive complaints. Here's an email I

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Chris Barker
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: Right now we are trying to balance difficult things:  stable releases with experimental development. Perhaps a more formal development release system could help here. IIUC, numpy pretty much has two things: the latest

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Travis Oliphant
That is an excellent thought. We could make the odd numbered releases experimental and the even-numbered as stable. That makes some sense.What do others think? -Travis On Apr 23, 2012, at 5:46 PM, Chris Barker wrote: On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 3:08 PM, Travis Oliphant

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Charles R Harris
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 5:02 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.iowrote: That is an excellent thought. We could make the odd numbered releases experimental and the even-numbered as stable. That makes some sense.What do others think? I'm starting to think that a fork might be the

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Stéfan van der Walt
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 4:39 PM, Charles R Harris charlesr.har...@gmail.com wrote: I'm starting to think that a fork might be the best solution to the present problem. If you are referring to the traditional concept of a fork, and not to the type we frequently make on GitHub, then I'm surprised

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Fernando Perez
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 4:02 PM, Travis Oliphant tra...@continuum.io wrote: That is an excellent thought. We could make the odd numbered releases experimental and the even-numbered as stable. That makes some sense.    What do others think? I think the concern with that is manpower: it

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-23 Thread Fernando Perez
On Mon, Apr 23, 2012 at 8:49 PM, Stéfan van der Walt ste...@sun.ac.za wrote: If you are referring to the traditional concept of a fork, and not to the type we frequently make on GitHub, then I'm surprised that no one has objected already.  What would a fork solve? To paraphrase the regexp

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-22 Thread Charles R Harris
On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 4:15 PM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: If you hang around big FOSS projects, you'll see the word consensus come up a lot. For example, the glibc steering committee recently dissolved itself in favor of governance directly by the consensus of the people active

Re: [Numpy-discussion] What is consensus anyway

2012-04-22 Thread Fernando Perez
Hi Nathaniel, thanks for a solid writeup of this topic. I just want to add a note from personal experience, regarding this specific point: On Sun, Apr 22, 2012 at 3:15 PM, Nathaniel Smith n...@pobox.com wrote: Usually disagreements are an indication that a better solution is possible, even