Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hello, I wanted to share my view as an 18 year old freshman in college. I have been birding hard for 4 years now. I have met many people, and since we are talking about birdwatching, I have met many older people. There have been many times where I have said WOW what an amazing day of birding, and I get the response " you should have seen it 30 years ago." I think that if the birding community focuses all of its attention on parasitic bird photographers, in the future I will be the one telling a young kid " you should have seen it 30 years ago". Isn't there much bigger threats to bird populations than bird photographers. Are they the reason why birding is not as good as it used to be. I am only 18 but I dont think so. Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember reading a post about a threat to the Four Sparrow Marsh. There were maybe three replies to that email. I think that should get a whole lot more attention. I have won a few awards on researcg regarding populations of eastern screech owls in relation to urbanization. I talked to over three hundred third fourth and fifth graders about the inportance of biodiversity and birds in our area. I have also recieved an audubon award for a bird picture I took. What group am I in? Am i parasite? Am i a birdwatcher? I am just a fan of birds Kyle Bardwell From: Tom Kerr To: NYSBirds Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Hi Everyone, Just to add my 2 cents on Owls. I was taught owls are not to be posted. I found a Saw-whet Owl once and returned with friends the next day. There were dozens of pellets at the base of the tree. This owl had been there for weeks. I never saw it again. 4 people were enough to chase it off in the dead of winter for good, and I learned my lesson. The only owl I have reported seeing to an RBA was a Snowy Owl on an inaccessible island visible from shore, hundreds of yards out. If I ask a birder I have just met about owls and they don't want to tell me where they are, that is just fine. I have asked and been told "no, its a secret." I have more respect for a birder that thinks about the bird's well-being first than one who wants to brag and show it off like a trophy. If you post the location of a roosting owl, or any bird for that matter, you have to share some responsibility for what happens to it, good or bad. If you know photographers are going to chase after it, or people are going to play calls at it all day long, you should probably take the bird's best interests into account and keep it to yourself. Use common sense. If this means new birders don't get to see it, then that's the way it has to be. I don't see anything wrong with having to earn your way into the birding community. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Will Raup wrote: >Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share of >deatheaters. > > >Will Raup >Albany, NY > > > >Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it >From: jacobdruc...@msn.com >Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 >CC: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com; peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com; >nysbirds-l@cornell.edu >To: fpimen...@verizon.net > > >When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? > > >Jacob > > >On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: > >Dan, >> >> >>The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind >>of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new >>ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must >>avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines >>by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird >>photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by >>definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is >>self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. >> There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of >>"disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being >>too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. >>Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When >>you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be >>more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird >>even at a closer distance. >> What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that >>practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are >>believers), written in stone. >>FP &g
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hi Everyone, Just to add my 2 cents on Owls. I was taught owls are not to be posted. I found a Saw-whet Owl once and returned with friends the next day. There were dozens of pellets at the base of the tree. This owl had been there for weeks. I never saw it again. 4 people were enough to chase it off in the dead of winter for good, and I learned my lesson. The only owl I have reported seeing to an RBA was a Snowy Owl on an inaccessible island visible from shore, hundreds of yards out. If I ask a birder I have just met about owls and they don't want to tell me where they are, that is just fine. I have asked and been told "no, its a secret." I have more respect for a birder that thinks about the bird's well-being first than one who wants to brag and show it off like a trophy. If you post the location of a roosting owl, or any bird for that matter, you have to share some responsibility for what happens to it, good or bad. If you know photographers are going to chase after it, or people are going to play calls at it all day long, you should probably take the bird's best interests into account and keep it to yourself. Use common sense. If this means new birders don't get to see it, then that's the way it has to be. I don't see anything wrong with having to earn your way into the birding community. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Will Raup wrote: > > Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share > of deatheaters. > > > Will Raup > Albany, NY > > > ---------- > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > From: jacobdruc...@msn.com > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 > CC: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com; peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com; > nysbirds-l@cornell.edu > To: fpimen...@verizon.net > > > When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? > > Jacob > > On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: > > Dan, > > The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a > kind of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may > create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that > we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible > guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what > birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of > ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the > best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. > > There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of > "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder > being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only > 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many > birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that > could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures > of the same bird even at a closer distance. > > What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and > that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those > who are believers), written in stone. > > FP > > > On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: > > > Hey Dan, > > I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the > individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant > and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime > example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they > resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a > fair shake. > > Greg > > -Original Message- > > From: Dan > > Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM > > To: Gregory Fisher > > Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell > > > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > > > Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post > them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their > vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number > too :) > > > Good birding! > > > Dan Furbish > > peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com > > > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html > 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L > 3) http://birdingonthe.net/m
Re:[nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I like to watch birds. I also like to photograph them. I shoot with an 800mm lens and quite often a 1.4x or 2x teleconverter. Would I like to be closer? Yes of course. But my mommy taught me manners and I know how to behave myself. I saw a Snowy Owl this year for the first time in my life, and it was magnificent. If not for this list, I never would have experienced such beauty. I've had many great locations shared with me by both birders and photographers alike. An idiot is an idiot. But a misinformed person can always be informed. Does it really matter if they have a camera or a scope? I'll leave that up to you. Charles Scheffold http://lenselements.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hi Everyone, Just to add my 2 cents on Owls. I was taught owls are not to be posted. I found a Saw-whet Owl once and returned with friends the next day. There were dozens of pellets at the base of the tree. This owl had been there for weeks. I never saw it again. 4 people were enough to chase it off in the dead of winter for good, and I learned my lesson. The only owl I have reported seeing to an RBA was a Snowy Owl on an inaccessible island visible from shore, hundreds of yards out. If I ask a birder I have just met about owls and they don't want to tell me where they are, that is just fine. I have asked and been told no, its a secret. I have more respect for a birder that thinks about the bird's well-being first than one who wants to brag and show it off like a trophy. If you post the location of a roosting owl, or any bird for that matter, you have to share some responsibility for what happens to it, good or bad. If you know photographers are going to chase after it, or people are going to play calls at it all day long, you should probably take the bird's best interests into account and keep it to yourself. Use common sense. If this means new birders don't get to see it, then that's the way it has to be. I don't see anything wrong with having to earn your way into the birding community. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Will Raup hoaryredp...@hotmail.com wrote: Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share of deatheaters. Will Raup Albany, NY -- Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it From: jacobdruc...@msn.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 CC: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com; peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com; nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To: fpimen...@verizon.net When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? Jacob On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of birding war that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of disturbing birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -Original Message- From: Dan peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM To: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Cc: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu nysbirds-l@cornell.edu, NY BIRDS Cornell NYSBirds-l@Cornell.edu Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- *NYSbirds-L List Info:* Welcome and Basics http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME Rules and Information http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES Subscribe, Configuration and Leavehttp://www.northeastbirding.com
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hello, I wanted to share my view as an 18 year old freshman in college. I have been birding hard for 4 years now. I have met many people, and since we are talking about birdwatching, I have met many older people. There have been many times where I have said WOW what an amazing day of birding, and I get the response you should have seen it 30 years ago. I think that if the birding community focuses all of its attention on parasitic bird photographers, in the future I will be the one telling a young kid you should have seen it 30 years ago. Isn't there much bigger threats to bird populations than bird photographers. Are they the reason why birding is not as good as it used to be. I am only 18 but I dont think so. Correct me if I am wrong, but I remember reading a post about a threat to the Four Sparrow Marsh. There were maybe three replies to that email. I think that should get a whole lot more attention. I have won a few awards on researcg regarding populations of eastern screech owls in relation to urbanization. I talked to over three hundred third fourth and fifth graders about the inportance of biodiversity and birds in our area. I have also recieved an audubon award for a bird picture I took. What group am I in? Am i parasite? Am i a birdwatcher? I am just a fan of birds Kyle Bardwell From: Tom Kerr tyrannustyran...@gmail.com To: NYSBirds nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Sent: Tuesday, February 7, 2012 4:06 PM Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Hi Everyone, Just to add my 2 cents on Owls. I was taught owls are not to be posted. I found a Saw-whet Owl once and returned with friends the next day. There were dozens of pellets at the base of the tree. This owl had been there for weeks. I never saw it again. 4 people were enough to chase it off in the dead of winter for good, and I learned my lesson. The only owl I have reported seeing to an RBA was a Snowy Owl on an inaccessible island visible from shore, hundreds of yards out. If I ask a birder I have just met about owls and they don't want to tell me where they are, that is just fine. I have asked and been told no, its a secret. I have more respect for a birder that thinks about the bird's well-being first than one who wants to brag and show it off like a trophy. If you post the location of a roosting owl, or any bird for that matter, you have to share some responsibility for what happens to it, good or bad. If you know photographers are going to chase after it, or people are going to play calls at it all day long, you should probably take the bird's best interests into account and keep it to yourself. Use common sense. If this means new birders don't get to see it, then that's the way it has to be. I don't see anything wrong with having to earn your way into the birding community. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 5:26 PM, Will Raup hoaryredp...@hotmail.com wrote: Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share of deatheaters. Will Raup Albany, NY Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it From: jacobdruc...@msn.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 CC: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com; peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com; nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To: fpimen...@verizon.net When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? Jacob On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of birding war that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of disturbing birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam
Re:[nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I like to watch birds. I also like to photograph them. I shoot with an 800mm lens and quite often a 1.4x or 2x teleconverter. Would I like to be closer? Yes of course. But my mommy taught me manners and I know how to behave myself. I saw a Snowy Owl this year for the first time in my life, and it was magnificent. If not for this list, I never would have experienced such beauty. I've had many great locations shared with me by both birders and photographers alike. An idiot is an idiot. But a misinformed person can always be informed. Does it really matter if they have a camera or a scope? I'll leave that up to you. Charles Scheffold http://lenselements.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share of deatheaters. Will Raup Albany, NY Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it From: jacobdruc...@msn.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 CC: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com; peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com; nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To: fpimen...@verizon.net When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? Jacob On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote:Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone.FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -Original Message- From: Dan Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM To: Gregory Fisher Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
All of us should follow sensible rules that serve the welfare of the
wildlife we care about, {and the rules of this list serve are that
you provide your name with your post.}
I know that the vast majority of photographers are not behaving
poorly, but it only takes a few episodes to get a few people
rankled.
Over reaction is not helpful either
Why you are against a proposal to keep location information
undisclosed, when it appears that you are secreting the very
information you decry for being withheld? Have you reported to this
list the LEOW roost you have been watching for the past 5 years?
If you feel a sense of discomfort when you see birdwatchers, one can
only wonder why. I almost always carry my camera, and no one has
ever said anything to me about it.
Arie Gilbert
President: Queens County Bird Club Inc.
http://www.qcbirdclub.org
On 2/6/2012 4:07 PM, peregrin...@aol.com wrote:
I agree! Do not post owls as photographers like myself will
probably want to photograph them. The bashing continues and as
walk with a lens I always feel a sense of discomfort when I
see birdwatchers. Which is why I learned a long time ago to
keep my mouth shut about any birds I find..
So presently this year I will not disclose the location of
2 Snowy owls in Ulster County, 4 Saw Whets in Rockland County
and the 3 large historical roost sites of LEOWs I have been
watching for 5 years in Orange County..
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Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? Jacob On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: > Dan, > > The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind > of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new > ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must > avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines > by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird > photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by > definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is > self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. > There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of > "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being > too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. > Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When > you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be > more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird > even at a closer distance. > What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that > practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are > believers), written in stone. > FP > > > On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: > >> >> Hey Dan, >> >> I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals >> exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a >> little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You >> approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow >> you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. >> >> Greg >> >> -Original Message----- >>> From: Dan >>> Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM >>> To: Gregory Fisher >>> Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell >>> >>> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get >>> it >>> >>> Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them >>> to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their >>> vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number >>> too :) >>> >>> Good birding! >>> >>> Dan Furbish >>> peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com >> >> >> -- >> >> NYSbirds-L List Info: >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES >> http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm >> >> ARCHIVES: >> 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html >> 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L >> 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html >> >> Please submit your observations to eBird: >> http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ >> >> -- > > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of "birding war" that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of "disturbing" birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: > > Hey Dan, > > I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals > exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a > little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You > approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow > you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. > > Greg > > -Original Message- >> From: Dan >> Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM >> To: Gregory Fisher >> Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell >> >> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get >> it >> >> Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them >> to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their >> vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number >> too :) >> >> Good birding! >> >> Dan Furbish >> peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com > > > -- > > NYSbirds-L List Info: > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES > http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm > > ARCHIVES: > 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html > 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L > 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html > > Please submit your observations to eBird: > http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ > > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Careful. This post makes me uneasy. It smacks of vigilante justice. Moderation in all things. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Dan wrote: > From: Dan > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: "Gregory Fisher" > Cc: "" , "NY BIRDS Cornell" > > > Let's all take photos of > photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the > appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter > their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the > license plate number too :) > > Good birding! > > Dan Furbish > peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com > -- > -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I agree! Do not post owls as photographers like myself will probably want to photograph them. The bashing continues and as walk with a lens I always feel a sense of discomfort when I see birdwatchers. Which is why I learned a long time ago to keep my mouth shut about any birds I find.. So presently this year I will not disclose the location of 2 Snowy owls in Ulster County, 4 Saw Whets in Rockland County and the 3 large historical roost sites of LEOWs I have been watching for 5 years in Orange County.. In a message dated 2/6/2012 9:02:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sausu...@nyc.rr.com writes: The opinion I voiced, to stop posting about owls, is certainly not a new one among birders and has been in practice for years. It is unfortunate. Education will help to reduce disturbance, which is why I re-posted the ABA's ethics principles. There are a number of web sites that have similar principles for wildlife photographers. Here is one: _http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html_ (http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html) I was glad to see the Administrator of this list post about ethics a few weeks ago. It was clear from the discussion about baiting owls with mice that many people were unaware of the potential problem of habituation, so perhaps many are unaware of ethical principles in general. Or at least need reminding. As Stella indicated, there are other ways than the listserv to see owls, like getting out and looking. But please respect the birds and the habitat. On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D. wrote: I’ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce the offensive behavior. I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can email the poster and request that info. Artie Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. President, Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island _president@cresli.org_ (mailto:presid...@cresli.org) _www.cresli.org _ (http://www.cresli.org/) 631-244-3352 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) "When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again" .. William Beebee P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this e-mail From: _bounce-39535655-3714799@list.cornell.edu_ (mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu) [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM To: _nysbirds-l@cornell.edu_ (mailto:nysbirds-l@cornell.edu) ; Gregory Fisher Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour. It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being seen. Stella Miller
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -Original Message- >From: Dan >Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM >To: Gregory Fisher >Cc: "" , NY BIRDS Cornell > >Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > >Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to >the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, >try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) > >Good birding! > >Dan Furbish >peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Thanks Dave. Yes I did not realize that and Jody filled me in too. Maybe that is where our problem lies. Should that be protected to only those who subscribe? Seems like that could go a long way to having more consistent civil birding community.-Original Message- From: David Klauber Sent: Feb 6, 2012 1:10 PM To: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Greg I sort of agree with your post, however to just to 1 of your points: Unfortunately kicking someone off the list, while still a good idea, doesn't limit the access to information on the list. Birdingonthe.net is accessible to anyone, for example. I personally received 2 offensive e mails about my white mouse post by people who are not on the list. So, yeah, it should be done, but it doesn't really stop anyone Dave Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:48:53 -0500From: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.comTo: catbird...@yahoo.com; nysbirds-l@cornell.eduSubject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Hats off to Cindy, very well said. Also to others on here that have pointed out that it is not just photographers but birders too that exhibit inappropriate behavior. To say lets just not post on here any species worthwhile, to me is just undermining what this is suppose to be about. This is suppose to be a community of interested people in birding. You have to subscribe to get these emails. Therefore who gets these emails is known. If a member of this community is going to abuse the privilege of this knowledge, then simply document the occurrence to leaders or organizer of this list. If found to be valid and the behavior is repeated, simply kicked them off the list. Don't punish everyone because of the arrogant inconsiderate ones. There are ways this can be handled to minimize those that don't get it. If you observe someone behaving inappropriate communicate with them considerately. If you just stand by and watch it and just complain, then your as big a part of the problem. Some people are just ignorant. Once you explain the birding ethics, many people then get it. For those that don't, report them appropriately and it becomes their loss going forward. I personally don't have days and days of time to go out and find some of these species on my own. Do I go out and look on my own several times a year yes. But I will drive several hours with hope of the opportunity to see something unique and / or rare that I have learned on this list, yes too. That does not make me lazy or a bad person. There are no guarantees. The bird might not be there when I get there or just simply may be out of reach or in hiding that day. Oh well, that is part of the adventure. Just my opinion.Greg-Original Message- From: Cindy Sent: Feb 6, 2012 9:14 AM To: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win!I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
The issue should not be one of "them against us" since that would not help at all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not "professional" but people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds. Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to avoid arguments with other birders. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote: > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger wrote: > > "My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious > about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time > checking online for other people sightings." > > So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, > yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time > to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. > > Sure - that's it! > > This thread is becoming an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional" > birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot > spend all day out in the field. > > It's getting ridiculous. > This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of > Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but > honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a > dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even > just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. > A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated > Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler > to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two > photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in > front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no > consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the > bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. > I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what > he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and > released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person > wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went > on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight > shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! > Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years > and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls > because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or > birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes > out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and > a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas > because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. > My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious > about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time > checking online for other people sightings. > > > Mark Barriger > Wallingford, CT > > > > > From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com > To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu > CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu > Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 > > > Hi all, > > I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. > I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife > photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve > always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know > there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 > isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling > people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that > self-policing i
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
The issue should not be one of "them against us" since that would not help at all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not "professional" but people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds. Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to avoid arguments with other birders. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote: > On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger wrote: > > "My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious > about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time > checking online for other people sightings." > > So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, > yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time > to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. > > Sure - that's it! > > This thread is becoming an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional" > birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot > spend all day out in the field. > > It's getting ridiculous. > This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of > Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but > honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a > dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even > just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. > A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated > Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler > to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two > photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in > front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no > consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the > bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. > I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what > he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and > released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person > wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went > on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight > shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! > Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years > and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls > because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or > birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes > out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and > a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas > because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. > My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious > about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time > checking online for other people sightings. > > > Mark Barriger > Wallingford, CT > > > > > From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com > To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu > CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu > Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 > > > Hi all, > > I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. > I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife > photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve > always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know > there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 > isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling > people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that > self-policing i
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger wrote: "My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings." So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. Sure - that's it! This thread is becoming an "us" against "them" thread - the "professional" birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot spend all day out in the field. It's getting ridiculous. > This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number > of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong > but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make > a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even > just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. > A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated > Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler > to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two > photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right > in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no > consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to > the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. > I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at > what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed > up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This > person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT > instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value > in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! > Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for > years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting > Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's > photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens > nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been > watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have > remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody > bothers them. > My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious > about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less > time checking online for other people sightings. > > > *Mark Barriger > Wallingford, CT* > > > > > ------ > From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com > To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu > CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu > Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 > > > Hi all, > > I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible > situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional > wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a > listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. > Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying > it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy > Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I > personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or > so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when > somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of > course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind > of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take > photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing > the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he > was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused > the bird again. > > There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are > effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird > without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the > technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always > seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on > Facebook I’m sure you can find a few. > > Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as > self-polici
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a "birder" make a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. Mark Barriger Wallingford, CT From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on Facebook I’m sure you can find a few. Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. All the best, Lloyd Lloyd Spitalnik Photography www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com From: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM To: david speiser Cc: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee (http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: I too agree with Cindy's summation. T
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I share David's and Cindy's views about the issue of restricting information about bird sightings. Before the time of the Internet (before the 1990s) birders got info about bird sightings mostly through phone calls. At that time, the number of active birders (or bird watchers was smaller than today). The significant increase in the number of birders (and bird photographers) has had positive and negative consequences. I will not repeat some of the so-called “negative” consequences since others have pointed out what they are. On the positive side, because their involvement in birding there are more people interested in wildlife and the environment and as concerned citizens they are important segment of the population that can be mobilized to protect these domains. According to survey data, during the past decade (2000-2010) about 48 million adults participated in different forms of bird watching in the United States. I am mentioning the data to argue against any silly idea of restricting information about birds to a small group of selected birders since that would not contribute to expand the interest on birds among those who may join us in the field. And, it will not work since there are always other ways to get the info. On the other hand, tensions and conflicts between birders and photographers will not disappear. However, we should try to minimize these tensions since we are going to share the same spaces and we are going to be in the field looking for the same birds. While bird watchers can see birds from a relative long distance (using powerful scopes and first class binoculars) photographers know that in order to get a quality picture of a bird they have to come much closer to the subject than the so-called traditional “birder” even when you use the most powerful lenses in this craft (lenses above 500mm). One exception would be digiscoping but that is not photography in the traditional sense of the word. In last instance, the dilemma is a trade-off between competing interests. When I am in the field taking pictures of birds (and there are traditional birders/bird watchers around) I do my best not to disturb what other birders are doing. I try not to use flash (even if sometimes there is not alternative) and I kept longer distances from birds (than when I am alone) and sometimes I don’t try to take the shot if I feel it could create potential problems with my colleagues in the field. When I started doing bird photography several years ago I made several mistakes but I have learned from them. That is the best thing you can do. Felipe On Feb 6, 2012, at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: > I too agree with Cindy's summation. > The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that > make it easy > not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. > Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a > Ross' Gull shows up! > That would need to be kept secret. > > Good birding, > > David Speiser > www.lilibirds.com > > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 > From: catbird...@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu > > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen > photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember > one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach > a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see > this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We > saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at > least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 > feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more > skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son > and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too > closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. > You just can't win! > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder > (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), > will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the > experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club > of sorts - with only the
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
We use THIS list (and others) to get "in the loop". Not all of us have our days free to wander all over the state looking for rarities or trying to find other birders in the field to talk with to get "the scoop" on rarities. We have full-time jobs, families, and many other commitments, which is why this list (and others like it) allows us to see the many incredible rare birds that grace our us with their presence. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Seth Ausubel wrote: > I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many. But > posts on this list have a major impact. For example, I was out at Breezy > Point on Saturday. There were few birders and only one photographer when I > was there, and the owls were left in peace. Then, a post on NYSBirds, and, > well, we have seen the result on Sunday. I do NOT mean to single out the > person who posted, just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in > situations such as this. If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will > still have opportunities, though perhaps requiring more effort. I know > this is disadvantageous to many, but our responsibility is to the birds and > their habitat first. So to all, if you are not "in the loop", get out and > look. Talk to other birders. That's how you get in the loop. > > Seth > > On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote: > > As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 > years) I agree with Cindy. > > We must not fall into any extremist position. > > It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system, > when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. > > Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk > reactions. That is the middle path. > > Bob Lewis > Sleepy Hollow NY > > > > > > --- On *Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy * wrote: > > > From: Cindy > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > To: "NYS Birds" > Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM > > > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or > birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own > back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off > and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the > bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private > club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. > I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out > for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually > don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really > well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other > respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area > just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless > joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to > the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence > around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even > license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's > not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the > occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think > that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on > something really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics <http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME> > Rules and Information <http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES> > Subscribe, Configuration and > Leave<http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm> > *Archives:* > The Mail > Archive<http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html> > Surfbirds <http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L> > BirdingOnThe.Net <http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html> > *Please submit your observations to **eBird*<http://ebird.org/content/ebird/> > *!* > -- > ... > > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics <http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbi
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many. But posts on this list have a major impact. For example, I was out at Breezy Point on Saturday. There were few birders and only one photographer when I was there, and the owls were left in peace. Then, a post on NYSBirds, and, well, we have seen the result on Sunday. I do NOT mean to single out the person who posted, just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in situations such as this. If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will still have opportunities, though perhaps requiring more effort. I know this is disadvantageous to many, but our responsibility is to the birds and their habitat first. So to all, if you are not "in the loop", get out and look. Talk to other birders. That's how you get in the loop. Seth On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote: > As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I > agree with Cindy. > > We must not fall into any extremist position. > > It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system, when > only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. > > Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk reactions. > That is the middle path. > > Bob Lewis > Sleepy Hollow NY > > > > > > --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy wrote: > > From: Cindy > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: "NYS Birds" > Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM > > > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder > (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), > will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the > experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club > of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for > one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for > rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't > like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. > Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other > respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just > to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless > joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to > the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence > around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even > license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not > worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the > occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think > that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something > really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- > ... > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- Seth Ausubel Forest Hills, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Go find a rare bird. Sent from my iPhone4 Please, always leave a message, I screen every call. Thx. On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy wrote: > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen > photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember > one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach > a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see > this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We > saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at > least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 > feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more > skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son > and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too > closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. > You just can't win! > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder > (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), > will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the > experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club > of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for > one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for > rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't > like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. > Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other > respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just > to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless > joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to > the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence > around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even > license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not > worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the > occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think > that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something > really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I agree with Cindy. We must not fall into any extremist position. It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old "word of mouth" system, when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk reactions. That is the middle path. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy wrote: From: Cindy Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: "NYS Birds" Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- ... -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hats off to Cindy, very well said. Also to others on here that have pointed out that it is not just photographers but birders too that exhibit inappropriate behavior. To say lets just not post on here any species worthwhile, to me is just undermining what this is suppose to be about. This is suppose to be a community of interested people in birding. You have to subscribe to get these emails. Therefore who gets these emails is known. If a member of this community is going to abuse the privilege of this knowledge, then simply document the occurrence to leaders or organizer of this list. If found to be valid and the behavior is repeated, simply kicked them off the list. Don't punish everyone because of the arrogant inconsiderate ones. There are ways this can be handled to minimize those that don't get it. If you observe someone behaving inappropriate communicate with them considerately. If you just stand by and watch it and just complain, then your as big a part of the problem. Some people are just ignorant. Once you explain the birding ethics, many people then get it. For those that don't, report them appropriately and it becomes their loss going forward. I personally don't have days and days of time to go out and find some of these species on my own. Do I go out and look on my own several times a year yes. But I will drive several hours with hope of the opportunity to see something unique and / or rare that I have learned on this list, yes too. That does not make me lazy or a bad person. There are no guarantees. The bird might not be there when I get there or just simply may be out of reach or in hiding that day. Oh well, that is part of the adventure. Just my opinion.Greg-Original Message- From: Cindy Sent: Feb 6, 2012 9:14 AM To: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win!I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe,
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it's an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I'm a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I've always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there's a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it's at lamppost 7902 isn't. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it's in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn't disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won't go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of "Whitey" and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven't really post many images but if you're on Facebook I'm sure you can find a few. Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. All the best, Lloyd Lloyd Spitalnik Photography www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com From: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM To: david speiser Cc: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird ( <http://www.ebird.org/> www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee ( <http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm> http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: I too agree with Cindy's summation. The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! That would need to be kept secret. Good birding, David Speiser www.lilibirds.com <http://www.lilibirds.com/> _ Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 From: catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyo
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org<http://www.ebird.org/>) and the NY State Avian Records Committee ( http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: > I too agree with Cindy's summation. > The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that > make it easy > not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. > Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when > a Ross' Gull shows up! > That would need to be kept secret. > > Good birding, > > David Speiser > www.lilibirds.com > > -- > Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 > From: catbird...@yahoo.com > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't > get it > To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu > > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen > photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I > remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at > Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so > he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the > beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting > on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a > distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The > second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the > beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along > the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, > flying overhead and away. You just can't win! > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or > birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own > back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off > and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the > bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private > club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. > I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out > for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually > don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really > well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other > respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area > just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless > joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to > the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence > around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even > license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's > not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the > occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think > that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on > something really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics <http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME> > Rules and Information <http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES> > Subscribe, Configuration and > Leave<http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm> > *Archives:* > The Mail > Archive<http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l%40cornell.edu/maillist.html> > Surfbirds <http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L> > BirdingOnThe.Net <http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html> > *Please submit your observations to **eBird*<http://ebird.org/content/ebird/> > *!* > -- > -- > *NYSbirds-L List Info:* > Welcome and Basics <
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I too agree with Cindy's summation. The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! That would need to be kept secret. Good birding, David Speiser www.lilibirds.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 From: catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Well put Cindy! Sent from my iPhone On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy wrote: > To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen > photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember > one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach > a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see > this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We > saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at > least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 > feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more > skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son > and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too > closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. > You just can't win! > > I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding > listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery > slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, > or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder > (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), > will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the > experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? > > Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees > what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club > of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for > one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for > rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't > like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. > Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other > respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just > to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. > > There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless > joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to > the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence > around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even > license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not > worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the > occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think > that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something > really special. > > have a great day! > Cindy Wodinsky > -- > NYSbirds-L List Info: > Welcome and Basics > Rules and Information > Subscribe, Configuration and Leave > Archives: > The Mail Archive > Surfbirds > BirdingOnThe.Net > Please submit your observations to eBird! > -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
DATE: 2/6/12 9:34 AM [ Full Screen ] [ SIZE: 2.242KB ] FROM: fal...@kidwings.com TO:catbird...@yahoo.com SUBJECT:Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Hello All, This is a very interesting discussion, and I enjoy reading people's differing opinions. I would like to throw out something a bit different. Personally, I do not post specific locations for owls anymore after a problem years ago with a local Snowy Owl. I think part of the problem lies with websites like birdingonthe.net. These websites catalog rare sightings from all over the country making it far too easy for birders/photographers to pick and choose which birds to chase. I would like a birding listserv to be a community of birders. People who participate in an on-line community with the same goal while getting to know each other. Everyone should know everyone else at least by name - then make connections when you bump into each other out in the field. Unfortunately, people can glean information far too easily without having to join such a community. Someone mentioned how they showed some passerby's the Snowy Owls and how excited those people were. That may have gotten them hooked into birding, or at least appreciating nature more. This is far different from sharing an owl's location with complete strangers - the entire Internet community. We do not put our children's contact information out there for everyone to see - should we do the same with sensitive birds? I have a feeling not many will agree with my point of view. I think birding and photography (which I do both) should require a little work. If you want information on local birds, take the time to join a listserv and actually participate in that listserv - not just use it for your personal gain. Just my thoughts. Jody Hildreth Waterville, NY fal...@kidwings.com Listowner - Oneidabirds Top -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
The opinion I voiced, to stop posting about owls, is certainly not a new one among birders and has been in practice for years. It is unfortunate. Education will help to reduce disturbance, which is why I re-posted the ABA's ethics principles. There are a number of web sites that have similar principles for wildlife photographers. Here is one: http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html I was glad to see the Administrator of this list post about ethics a few weeks ago. It was clear from the discussion about baiting owls with mice that many people were unaware of the potential problem of habituation, so perhaps many are unaware of ethical principles in general. Or at least need reminding. As Stella indicated, there are other ways than the listserv to see owls, like getting out and looking. But please respect the birds and the habitat. On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D. wrote: > I’ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and > getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating > these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce > the offensive behavior. > > I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no > respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are > photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the > majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about > owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the > general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the > specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with > minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can > email the poster and request that info. > > Artie > > Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. > President, > Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island > presid...@cresli.org > www.cresli.org > 631-244-3352 > ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) > > > > > "When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, > another heaven and another earth > must pass before such a one can be again" .. William Beebee > > P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this > e-mail > > From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu > [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller > Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM > To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher > Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > > To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two > people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, > up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, > approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down > the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have > witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. > > In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my > house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them > to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. > I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were > leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and > heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed > as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their > credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an > hour. > > It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of > unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not > be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of > mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv > a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being > seen. > > Stella Miller > President > Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon > > > > > "Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding > whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread > the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is > between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man." Thomas Lovejoy > > --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher wrote: > > From: Gregory Fisher > Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it > To: ny
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I have been trying to avoid jumping in on this but feel I must. As a birder, and photographer, I also find the vilifying of bird photographers a disturbing and personally offensive trend. There is no doubt that some photographers do things that are not within ethical bounds. In fact I was there at Breezy yesterday--at the same time as Phil Jeffrey--and saw that first offending photographer flush the bird from the dunes. And in fact, one of my party chastised the guy. I was on the same dune as Phil (although I didn't know it at the time!) and I could see immediately that I was not going to get any decent shot of this bird. Oh well--I was resigned. (As it turned out, we later walked down around the jetty and lo and behold, one owl was right on the top of the dune in front of me, so in the end I did get a decent shot, without having to enter the dunes or encroach on the bird. But now, I would be reluctant to post it for fear of being questioned/harassed about it. This is a sorry state of affairs.) But I have also seen birders doing equally inappropriate things--tromping through undergrowth to flush a bird, trespassing on private property, using tapes inappropriately, etc etc. There are jerks in every group. What we need to focus is on educating these people--photographers and birders alike--on appropriate, ethical behavior around owls and other birds. What bothers me is that witholding owl sightings because of this knee-jerk reaction to photographers punishes the many ethically-abiding photographers, and birders, and especially neophytes. How many have seen their life owls because of this list, and others like it? How many this season have seen their life Snowy Owl, and been forever changed by their magnificence? Just yesterday at Breezy we showed the owl to several beginning birders--and non-birders--through our scope, and they were awed. I doubt those birders would have been there if not for the lists. Without posting, only the elite birders--those "in the know" or in that "inner circle" of NY birders--get the opportunity to see these fantastic birds. And that would be a great loss. Janet Zinn Brooklyn, NY _www.janetzinnphotography.com_ (http://www.janetzinnphotography.com/) In a message dated 2/6/2012 8:03:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kopel...@optonline.net writes: I’ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce the offensive behavior. I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can email the poster and request that info. Artie Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. President, Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island _president@cresli.org_ (mailto:presid...@cresli.org) _www.cresli.org _ (http://www.cresli.org/) 631-244-3352 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) "When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again" .. William Beebee P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this e-mail From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
The usual line is that it is just "two bad apples". Since I spend a fair amount of my birding time photographing, I've seen a lot of photographers. The number of bad apples is more in the range twenty to forty. (Think: in the course of one day two of us we documented 3 of them - how many more went undocumented ?). In the case of Snowy Owls I'd expect about 1/4 of the photographers to be wandering the dunes. Owls in particular reward bad behavior with better photographs. Or should I cite the case of the NY photographer who visited a local birding spot and was apparently taping in the breeding Kentucky Warblers for a better shot ? There are lots of examples of this because there are lots of people doing it, not just two. While it is still the minority it's quite a significant minority, and therefore a quite a significant problem for sedentary wintering birds and breeding birds. Phil Jeffrey -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I've seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce the offensive behavior. I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are photographing, but let's remember that these folks don't represent the majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can email the poster and request that info. Artie Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. President, Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island <mailto:presid...@cresli.org> presid...@cresli.org <http://www.cresli.org/> www.cresli.org 631-244-3352 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) "When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again" .. William Beebee P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this e-mail From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour. It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being seen. Stella Miller President Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon "Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man." Thomas Lovejoy --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher wrote: From: Gregory Fisher Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM All, I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic rules. In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including snowy owls. The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this winter is an awesome one. The birding list have been an awesome resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well. Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes photographers in general. Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance away to observe. Then we have others that say they will no longer post at all. If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation responsibly. Greg -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbird
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour. It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being seen. Stella Miller President Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon "Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man." Thomas Lovejoy --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher wrote: From: Gregory Fisher Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM All, I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic rules. In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including snowy owls. The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this winter is an awesome one. The birding list have been an awesome resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well. Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes photographers in general. Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance away to observe. Then we have others that say they will no longer post at all. If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation responsibly. Greg -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
[nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
All, I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic rules. In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including snowy owls. The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this winter is an awesome one. The birding list have been an awesome resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well. Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes photographers in general. Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance away to observe. Then we have others that say they will no longer post at all. If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation responsibly. Greg -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
[nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
All, I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic rules. In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including snowy owls. The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this winter is an awesome one. The birding list have been an awesome resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well. Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes photographers in general. Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance away to observe. Then we have others that say they will no longer post at all. If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation responsibly. Greg -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour. It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being seen. Stella Miller President Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man. Thomas Lovejoy --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com wrote: From: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM All, I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic rules. In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including snowy owls. The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this winter is an awesome one. The birding list have been an awesome resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well. Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes photographers in general. Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance away to observe. Then we have others that say they will no longer post at all. If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation responsibly. Greg -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I've seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce the offensive behavior. I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are photographing, but let's remember that these folks don't represent the majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can email the poster and request that info. Artie Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. President, Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island mailto:presid...@cresli.org presid...@cresli.org http://www.cresli.org/ www.cresli.org 631-244-3352 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again .. William Beebee P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this e-mail From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour. It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being seen. Stella Miller President Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man. Thomas Lovejoy --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com wrote: From: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM All, I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic rules. In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including snowy owls. The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant birds this winter is an awesome one. The birding list have been an awesome resource in order to see not only snowy owls but other species as well. Just because there were 2 bad apples some people who think they are above everyone else trashes photographers in general. Then we have frequent birders say they are no longer going to post specific locations, which in my mind means people will have to look harder and possibly flush out bird looking instead of understand where they are and staying a good distance away to observe. Then we have others that say they will no longer post at all. If this is the case why not just band this whole concept of the birding list and we can all go back to the stone age. I understand the problem with a select few but come on people grow up and handle the situation responsibly. Greg -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
The usual line is that it is just two bad apples. Since I spend a fair amount of my birding time photographing, I've seen a lot of photographers. The number of bad apples is more in the range twenty to forty. (Think: in the course of one day two of us we documented 3 of them - how many more went undocumented ?). In the case of Snowy Owls I'd expect about 1/4 of the photographers to be wandering the dunes. Owls in particular reward bad behavior with better photographs. Or should I cite the case of the NY photographer who visited a local birding spot and was apparently taping in the breeding Kentucky Warblers for a better shot ? There are lots of examples of this because there are lots of people doing it, not just two. While it is still the minority it's quite a significant minority, and therefore a quite a significant problem for sedentary wintering birds and breeding birds. Phil Jeffrey -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I have been trying to avoid jumping in on this but feel I must. As a birder, and photographer, I also find the vilifying of bird photographers a disturbing and personally offensive trend. There is no doubt that some photographers do things that are not within ethical bounds. In fact I was there at Breezy yesterday--at the same time as Phil Jeffrey--and saw that first offending photographer flush the bird from the dunes. And in fact, one of my party chastised the guy. I was on the same dune as Phil (although I didn't know it at the time!) and I could see immediately that I was not going to get any decent shot of this bird. Oh well--I was resigned. (As it turned out, we later walked down around the jetty and lo and behold, one owl was right on the top of the dune in front of me, so in the end I did get a decent shot, without having to enter the dunes or encroach on the bird. But now, I would be reluctant to post it for fear of being questioned/harassed about it. This is a sorry state of affairs.) But I have also seen birders doing equally inappropriate things--tromping through undergrowth to flush a bird, trespassing on private property, using tapes inappropriately, etc etc. There are jerks in every group. What we need to focus is on educating these people--photographers and birders alike--on appropriate, ethical behavior around owls and other birds. What bothers me is that witholding owl sightings because of this knee-jerk reaction to photographers punishes the many ethically-abiding photographers, and birders, and especially neophytes. How many have seen their life owls because of this list, and others like it? How many this season have seen their life Snowy Owl, and been forever changed by their magnificence? Just yesterday at Breezy we showed the owl to several beginning birders--and non-birders--through our scope, and they were awed. I doubt those birders would have been there if not for the lists. Without posting, only the elite birders--those in the know or in that inner circle of NY birders--get the opportunity to see these fantastic birds. And that would be a great loss. Janet Zinn Brooklyn, NY _www.janetzinnphotography.com_ (http://www.janetzinnphotography.com/) In a message dated 2/6/2012 8:03:16 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, kopel...@optonline.net writes: I’ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce the offensive behavior. I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can email the poster and request that info. Artie Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. President, Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island _president@cresli.org_ (mailto:presid...@cresli.org) _www.cresli.org _ (http://www.cresli.org/) 631-244-3352 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again .. William Beebee P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this e-mail From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
The opinion I voiced, to stop posting about owls, is certainly not a new one among birders and has been in practice for years. It is unfortunate. Education will help to reduce disturbance, which is why I re-posted the ABA's ethics principles. There are a number of web sites that have similar principles for wildlife photographers. Here is one: http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html I was glad to see the Administrator of this list post about ethics a few weeks ago. It was clear from the discussion about baiting owls with mice that many people were unaware of the potential problem of habituation, so perhaps many are unaware of ethical principles in general. Or at least need reminding. As Stella indicated, there are other ways than the listserv to see owls, like getting out and looking. But please respect the birds and the habitat. On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D. wrote: I’ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce the offensive behavior. I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can email the poster and request that info. Artie Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. President, Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island presid...@cresli.org www.cresli.org 631-244-3352 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again .. William Beebee P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this e-mail From: bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu; Gregory Fisher Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour. It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being seen. Stella Miller President Huntington-Oyster Bay Audubon Conservation is sometimes perceived as stopping everything cold, as holding whooping cranes in higher esteem than people. It is up to science to spread the understanding that the choice is not between wild places or people, it is between a rich or an impoverished existence for Man. Thomas Lovejoy --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com wrote: From: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Subject: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 6:19 AM All, I am a photographer and am very respectful of wildlife and the birding ethic rules. In no way do I want to bring harm or stress any wildlife including snowy owls. The opportunity to be able to see these magnificant
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
DATE: 2/6/12 9:34 AM [ Full Screen ] [ SIZE: 2.242KB ] FROM: fal...@kidwings.com TO:catbird...@yahoo.com SUBJECT:Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Hello All, This is a very interesting discussion, and I enjoy reading people's differing opinions. I would like to throw out something a bit different. Personally, I do not post specific locations for owls anymore after a problem years ago with a local Snowy Owl. I think part of the problem lies with websites like birdingonthe.net. These websites catalog rare sightings from all over the country making it far too easy for birders/photographers to pick and choose which birds to chase. I would like a birding listserv to be a community of birders. People who participate in an on-line community with the same goal while getting to know each other. Everyone should know everyone else at least by name - then make connections when you bump into each other out in the field. Unfortunately, people can glean information far too easily without having to join such a community. Someone mentioned how they showed some passerby's the Snowy Owls and how excited those people were. That may have gotten them hooked into birding, or at least appreciating nature more. This is far different from sharing an owl's location with complete strangers - the entire Internet community. We do not put our children's contact information out there for everyone to see - should we do the same with sensitive birds? I have a feeling not many will agree with my point of view. I think birding and photography (which I do both) should require a little work. If you want information on local birds, take the time to join a listserv and actually participate in that listserv - not just use it for your personal gain. Just my thoughts. Jody Hildreth Waterville, NY fal...@kidwings.com Listowner - Oneidabirds #9650; Top -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Well put Cindy! Sent from my iPhone On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com wrote: To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I too agree with Cindy's summation. The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! That would need to be kept secret. Good birding, David Speiser www.lilibirds.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 From: catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.orghttp://www.ebird.org/) and the NY State Avian Records Committee ( http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser david_spei...@hotmail.comwrote: I too agree with Cindy's summation. The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! That would need to be kept secret. Good birding, David Speiser www.lilibirds.com -- Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 From: catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- *NYSbirds-L List Info:* Welcome and Basics http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME Rules and Information http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES Subscribe, Configuration and Leavehttp://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm *Archives:* The Mail Archivehttp://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l%40cornell.edu/maillist.html Surfbirds http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L BirdingOnThe.Net http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html *Please submit your observations to **eBird*http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ *!* -- -- *NYSbirds-L List Info:* Welcome and Basics http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME Rules and Information http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES Subscribe, Configuration and Leavehttp://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm *Archives:* The Mail Archivehttp://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html Surfbirds http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L BirdingOnThe.Net http
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it's an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I'm a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I've always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there's a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it's at lamppost 7902 isn't. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it's in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn't disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won't go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of Whitey and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven't really post many images but if you're on Facebook I'm sure you can find a few. Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. All the best, Lloyd Lloyd Spitalnik Photography www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com From: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM To: david speiser Cc: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird ( http://www.ebird.org/ www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee ( http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser david_spei...@hotmail.com wrote: I too agree with Cindy's summation. The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! That would need to be kept secret. Good birding, David Speiser www.lilibirds.com http://www.lilibirds.com/ _ Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 From: catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hats off to Cindy, very well said. Also to others on here that have pointed out that it is not just photographers but birders too that exhibit inappropriate behavior. To say lets just not post on here any species worthwhile, to me is just undermining what this is suppose to be about. This is suppose to be a community of interested people in birding. You have to subscribe to get these emails. Therefore who gets these emails is known. If a member of this community is going to abuse the privilege of this knowledge, then simply document the occurrence to leaders or organizer of this list. If found to be valid and the behavior is repeated, simply kicked them off the list. Don't punish everyone because of the arrogant inconsiderate ones. There are ways this can be handled to minimize those that don't get it. If you observe someone behaving inappropriate communicate with them considerately. If you just stand by and watch it and just complain, then your as big a part of the problem. Some people are just ignorant. Once you explain the birding ethics, many people then get it. For those that don't, report them appropriately and it becomes their loss going forward. I personally don't have days and days of time to go out and find some of these species on my own. Do I go out and look on my own several times a year yes. But I will drive several hours with hope of the opportunity to see something unique and / or rare that I have learned on this list, yes too. That does not make me lazy or a bad person. There are no guarantees. The bird might not be there when I get there or just simply may be out of reach or in hiding that day. Oh well, that is part of the adventure. Just my opinion.Greg-Original Message- From: Cindy <catbird...@yahoo.com> Sent: Feb 6, 2012 9:14 AM To: NYS Birds <nysbirds-l@cornell.edu> Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win!I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird.There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special.have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I agree with Cindy. We must not fall into any extremist position. It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old word of mouth system, when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk reactions. That is the middle path. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: NYS Birds nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day!Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- ... -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Go find a rare bird. Sent from my iPhone4 Please, always leave a message, I screen every call. Thx. On Feb 6, 2012, at 9:14 AM, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com wrote: To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many. But posts on this list have a major impact. For example, I was out at Breezy Point on Saturday. There were few birders and only one photographer when I was there, and the owls were left in peace. Then, a post on NYSBirds, and, well, we have seen the result on Sunday. I do NOT mean to single out the person who posted, just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in situations such as this. If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will still have opportunities, though perhaps requiring more effort. I know this is disadvantageous to many, but our responsibility is to the birds and their habitat first. So to all, if you are not in the loop, get out and look. Talk to other birders. That's how you get in the loop. Seth On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote: As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I agree with Cindy. We must not fall into any extremist position. It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old word of mouth system, when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk reactions. That is the middle path. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: NYS Birds nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- ... -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- Seth Ausubel Forest Hills, NY -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
We use THIS list (and others) to get in the loop. Not all of us have our days free to wander all over the state looking for rarities or trying to find other birders in the field to talk with to get the scoop on rarities. We have full-time jobs, families, and many other commitments, which is why this list (and others like it) allows us to see the many incredible rare birds that grace our us with their presence. On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 11:23 AM, Seth Ausubel sausu...@nyc.rr.com wrote: I agree that my position is unfortunate and inconvenient for many. But posts on this list have a major impact. For example, I was out at Breezy Point on Saturday. There were few birders and only one photographer when I was there, and the owls were left in peace. Then, a post on NYSBirds, and, well, we have seen the result on Sunday. I do NOT mean to single out the person who posted, just to point out the consequences of the Listserv in situations such as this. If someone wants to see a Snowy Owl they will still have opportunities, though perhaps requiring more effort. I know this is disadvantageous to many, but our responsibility is to the birds and their habitat first. So to all, if you are not in the loop, get out and look. Talk to other birders. That's how you get in the loop. Seth On Feb 6, 2012, at 11:00 AM, Robert Lewis wrote: As a long-time resident and birder of New York state (more than 30 years) I agree with Cindy. We must not fall into any extremist position. It would be beyond a shame to go back to the old word of mouth system, when only a self-appointed elite knew about rarities. Respond appropriately to situations as they arise. No knee-jerk reactions. That is the middle path. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY --- On *Mon, 2/6/12, Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com* wrote: From: Cindy catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: NYS Birds nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Date: Monday, February 6, 2012, 9:14 AM I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few key people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird. There's no way to completely eliminate the problem. There will be clueless joggers, dogs and their owners, and kids flushing the birds in addition to the photographers and selfish birders who show up. You can't put a fence around these birds. I believe that by posting photos or names (or even license plates) of the perpetrators, they will eventually learn that it's not worth their while to do what they're doing. Or they won't care and the occasional bird may suffer an uncomfortable moment or two. I still think that's better than a whole lot of decent, good folks losing out on something really special. have a great day! Cindy Wodinsky -- *NYSbirds-L List Info:* Welcome and Basics http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME Rules and Information http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES Subscribe, Configuration and Leavehttp://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm *Archives:* The Mail Archivehttp://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html Surfbirds http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L BirdingOnThe.Net http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html *Please submit your observations to **eBird*http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ *!* -- ... -- *NYSbirds-L List Info:* Welcome and Basics http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME Rules and Information http://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES Subscribe, Configuration and Leavehttp://www.northeastbirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm *Archives:* The Mail Archivehttp://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html Surfbirds http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L BirdingOnThe.Net http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html *Please submit your observations to **eBird
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I share David's and Cindy's views about the issue of restricting information about bird sightings. Before the time of the Internet (before the 1990s) birders got info about bird sightings mostly through phone calls. At that time, the number of active birders (or bird watchers was smaller than today). The significant increase in the number of birders (and bird photographers) has had positive and negative consequences. I will not repeat some of the so-called “negative” consequences since others have pointed out what they are. On the positive side, because their involvement in birding there are more people interested in wildlife and the environment and as concerned citizens they are important segment of the population that can be mobilized to protect these domains. According to survey data, during the past decade (2000-2010) about 48 million adults participated in different forms of bird watching in the United States. I am mentioning the data to argue against any silly idea of restricting information about birds to a small group of selected birders since that would not contribute to expand the interest on birds among those who may join us in the field. And, it will not work since there are always other ways to get the info. On the other hand, tensions and conflicts between birders and photographers will not disappear. However, we should try to minimize these tensions since we are going to share the same spaces and we are going to be in the field looking for the same birds. While bird watchers can see birds from a relative long distance (using powerful scopes and first class binoculars) photographers know that in order to get a quality picture of a bird they have to come much closer to the subject than the so-called traditional “birder” even when you use the most powerful lenses in this craft (lenses above 500mm). One exception would be digiscoping but that is not photography in the traditional sense of the word. In last instance, the dilemma is a trade-off between competing interests. When I am in the field taking pictures of birds (and there are traditional birders/bird watchers around) I do my best not to disturb what other birders are doing. I try not to use flash (even if sometimes there is not alternative) and I kept longer distances from birds (than when I am alone) and sometimes I don’t try to take the shot if I feel it could create potential problems with my colleagues in the field. When I started doing bird photography several years ago I made several mistakes but I have learned from them. That is the best thing you can do. Felipe On Feb 6, 2012, at 10:08 AM, david speiser wrote: I too agree with Cindy's summation. The birding community as a whole should not turn into insular cliques that make it easy not to report when you know you will hear about the bird anyway. Do we want this board to only report Herring Gull's except of course when a Ross' Gull shows up! That would need to be kept secret. Good birding, David Speiser www.lilibirds.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 06:14:22 -0800 From: catbird...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, poster bird was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win! I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)? Keeping sightings limited to word of mouth severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite inner circle allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a birder make a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. Mark Barriger Wallingford, CT From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on Facebook I’m sure you can find a few. Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. All the best, Lloyd Lloyd Spitalnik Photography www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com From: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu [mailto:bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Sam Stuart Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM To: david speiser Cc: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it All, We are responsible for the sightings we make and the people we share those with. It is important to balance the need for documenting rare and irregular species vs. our desire to share these excellent sightings with others. This is especially true when dealing with sightings of territorial and sedentary species that are more susceptible to disturbances. These species should probably be documented on eBird (www.eBird.org) and the NY State Avian Records Committee (http://nybirds.org/NYSARC/nysarcform2.htm) rather than the list serve. Thanks, Sam Stuart On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 10:08 AM, david speiser david_spei...@hotmail.com wrote: I too agree with Cindy's
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger mark8b...@hotmail.comwrote: My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. Sure - that's it! This thread is becoming an us against them thread - the professional birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot spend all day out in the field. It's getting ridiculous. This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a birder make a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. *Mark Barriger Wallingford, CT* -- From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take photos. The offending photographer arriver shortly after and started doing the same thing again. I told him he needed to stop and explained what he was doing was wrong. He listened, stayed a few more hours and never abused the bird again. There are ways of making your point without being confrontational that are effective. There are also ways of approaching an owl or any other bird without alarming it but it requires a lot of patience. I won’t go into the technique but I took over 4000 images of “Whitey” and the bird always seemed quite serene. I haven’t really post many images but if you’re on Facebook I’m sure you can find a few. Educating new birders and photographers is essential as well as self-policing. Just my 3 cents. All the best, Lloyd Lloyd Spitalnik Photography www.lloydspitalnikphotos.com *From:* bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu [mailto: bounce-39536371-10711...@list.cornell.edu] *On Behalf Of *Sam Stuart *Sent:* Monday, February 06, 2012 10:19 AM *To:* david speiser *Cc:* NYS Birds *Subject:* Re
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
The issue should not be one of them against us since that would not help at all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not professional but people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds. Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to avoid arguments with other birders. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote: On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger mark8b...@hotmail.com wrote: My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. Sure - that's it! This thread is becoming an us against them thread - the professional birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot spend all day out in the field. It's getting ridiculous. This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a birder make a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. Mark Barriger Wallingford, CT From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take photos
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
The issue should not be one of them against us since that would not help at all. As a birder and as a photographer, I am concerned that these issues will have negative repercussions on the social interactions between us in the field. BTW, most of the bird photographers that I know are not professional but people who enjoy spending time shooting pictures of birds. Regarding the issue of reporting owl sightings, I stopped doing that after an unpleasant experience reporting the location of a Barred Owl that I saw in Central Park. Last week I saw a single Long-eared Owl roosting on a pine in Hunter Island (Pelham Bay Park). The bird was pretty high on a pine and well camouflaged to get a clear shot and I did not even try to get a picture. I wanted to report the sighting but I did not know how to do it without being too specific and explicit about the location and I did not even bother to do it to avoid arguments with other birders. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 12:22 PM, Nadine Scarpa wrote: On Mon, Feb 6, 2012 at 12:13 PM, Mark Barriger mark8b...@hotmail.com wrote: My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. So lets go ahead and punish the folks who are serious about observing birds, yet have full time jobs, families, and other commitments and don't have time to go out looking for birds on a full-time basis. Sure - that's it! This thread is becoming an us against them thread - the professional birders versus the folks who love birds, and love watching them, yet cannot spend all day out in the field. It's getting ridiculous. This topic is going on in most States right now because of the number of Snowy Owls moving down. I think singling out the photographers is wrong but honestly at least three quarters of the time when I see a birder make a dumb controversial decision he/she usually has a camera present. Not even just with owls but with birds in general. Here is my one quick example. A few weeks back I visited a house in Madison, CT to see a Yellow-throated Warbler. Most birders stood back and to the side and waited for the Warbler to come in but we had to move our positions to see the feeders because two photographers showed up, walked 8-10 ft from the feeder, and set up right in front of us. (a) no consideration to the birders present, (b) no consideration to the tenants that lived there and (c) no consideration to the bird itself. All they cared about was getting that shot. I read a posting somewhere from a birder/photographer who was upset at what he witnessed while trying to photograph an Owl. I guess someone showed up and released a mouse so that they could get a few flight shots. This person wasn't mad because it might result in hurting the Owl itself BUT instead went on to talk about how this kind of action was causing the value in his flight shots to drop. Glad to see that his priorities were in order! Most birders that I know don't report Owls and it's been that way for years and I have to say that I'm more surprised when I see people reporting Owls because 90% of the time it turns into a mess. Whether it's photographers or birders the fact is owls atract and when that happens nothing good ever comes out of it. Over the past two weeks I have been watching Barred, Saw-whet, and a Snowy Owl here in Connecticut and all have remained in the same areas because nobody knows about them and nobody bothers them. My attitude is if your serious about photographing owls and your serious about observing them then spend more time out looking for them and less time checking online for other people sightings. Mark Barriger Wallingford, CT From: ll...@lloydspitalnikphotos.com To: NYSbirds-l@cornell.edu CC: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:38:29 -0500 Hi all, I was going to stay out of this thread because it’s an impossible situation. I come from 3 directions. I’m a long time birder, a professional wildlife photographer and a listowner of Metro Birding Briefs. As a listowner I’ve always discouraged posting of specific owl locations. Letting people know there’s a Barred Owl in Central Park is fine but saying it’s at lamppost 7902 isn’t. Likewise, a Snowy Owl is being seen at Breezy Point, OK but telling people it’s in the third dune back, not as good. I personally believe that self-policing is the best solution. Just a week or so ago, I was at Jones Beach photographing the white Snowy Owl when somebody started approaching the owl in a quick herky jerky manner. Of course, the owl flew. I was the first to get to its new location and kind of set up a line where the owl wasn’t disturbed but close enough to take photos
RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Thanks Dave. Yes I did not realize that and Jody filled me in too. Maybe that is where our problem lies. Should that be protected to only those who subscribe? Seems like that could go a long way to having more consistent civil birding community.-Original Message- From: David Klauber <davehawk...@msn.com> Sent: Feb 6, 2012 1:10 PM To: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Subject: RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it GregI sort of agree with your post, however to just to 1 of your points:Unfortunately kicking someone off the list, while still a good idea, doesn't limit the access to information on the list. Birdingonthe.net is accessible to anyone, for example. I personally received 2 offensive e mails about my white mouse post by people who are not on the list. So, yeah, it should be done, but it doesn't really stop anyoneDaveDate: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 10:48:53 -0500From: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.comTo: catbird...@yahoo.com; nysbirds-l@cornell.eduSubject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Hats off to Cindy, very well said. Also to others on here that have pointed out that it is not just photographers but birders too that exhibit inappropriate behavior. To say lets just not post on here any species worthwhile, to me is just undermining what this is suppose to be about. This is suppose to be a community of interested people in birding. You have to subscribe to get these emails. Therefore who gets these emails is known. If a member of this community is going to abuse the privilege of this knowledge, then simply document the occurrence to leaders or organizer of this list. If found to be valid and the behavior is repeated, simply kicked them off the list. Don't punish everyone because of the arrogant inconsiderate ones. There are ways this can be handled to minimize those that don't get it. If you observe someone behaving inappropriate communicate with them considerately. If you just stand by and watch it and just complain, then your as big a part of the problem. Some people are just ignorant. Once you explain the birding ethics, many people then get it. For those that don't, report them appropriately and it becomes their loss going forward. I personally don't have days and days of time to go out and find some of these species on my own. Do I go out and look on my own several times a year yes. But I will drive several hours with hope of the opportunity to see something unique and / or rare that I have learned on this list, yes too. That does not make me lazy or a bad person. There are no guarantees. The bird might not be there when I get there or just simply may be out of reach or in hiding that day. Oh well, that is part of the adventure. Just my opinion.Greg-Original Message- From: Cindy Sent: Feb 6, 2012 9:14 AM To: NYS Birds Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To echo Janet's post and in response to Stella's - I too have seen photographers being insensitive to snowy owls, on other ocassions. I remember one time there was a fantastic photo op for one particular owl at Jones Beach a few years ago I even took one of my kids out of school so he could see this beautiful bird. (there were actually TWO owls at the beach that day! We saw both of them!). The first, "poster bird" was sitting on a dune, with at least a half dozen photographers snapping away at a distance of about 15 feet. Maybe not even that. Unbelievable but true. The second bird was more skittish and was sitting by itself, closer to the beach. However, as my son and I were watching it, a jogger running along the beach passed it too closely (not seeing the bird) and the owl flushed, flying overhead and away. You just can't win!I disagree, however, that owls should not be mentioned on these birding listservs. I would think that's just the beginning of a slippery slopefirst owls are kept secret, then perhaps a first-of-state nesting, or other rare bird who's to say an inconsiderate photographer, or birder (yes, those exist as well, I had the experience of one in my own back yard!), will get close enough to ANY noteworthy bird to shoo it off and ruin the experience for everyone else (not to mention stressing the bird!)?Keeping sightings limited to "word of mouth" severely restricts who sees what, turning birding (or the viewing of certain species) into a private club of sorts - with only the elite "inner circle" allowed to participate. I for one don't go birding regularly in winter, preferring to just go out for rarities, and am not in anyone's cell phone contact list. I usually don't like birding in a crowd. I know a few "key" people but nobody really well. Word of mouth wouldn't work for me and wouldn't work for many other respectable, but more casual birders who might come from out of the area just to see an owl, or any other noteworthy bird.Ther
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -Original Message- From: Dan peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM To: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Cc: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu nysbirds-l@cornell.edu, NY BIRDS Cornell NYSBirds-l@Cornell.edu Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
I agree! Do not post owls as photographers like myself will probably want to photograph them. The bashing continues and as walk with a lens I always feel a sense of discomfort when I see birdwatchers. Which is why I learned a long time ago to keep my mouth shut about any birds I find.. So presently this year I will not disclose the location of 2 Snowy owls in Ulster County, 4 Saw Whets in Rockland County and the 3 large historical roost sites of LEOWs I have been watching for 5 years in Orange County.. In a message dated 2/6/2012 9:02:03 A.M. Eastern Standard Time, sausu...@nyc.rr.com writes: The opinion I voiced, to stop posting about owls, is certainly not a new one among birders and has been in practice for years. It is unfortunate. Education will help to reduce disturbance, which is why I re-posted the ABA's ethics principles. There are a number of web sites that have similar principles for wildlife photographers. Here is one: _http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html_ (http://www.naturephotographers.net/ethics.html) I was glad to see the Administrator of this list post about ethics a few weeks ago. It was clear from the discussion about baiting owls with mice that many people were unaware of the potential problem of habituation, so perhaps many are unaware of ethical principles in general. Or at least need reminding. As Stella indicated, there are other ways than the listserv to see owls, like getting out and looking. But please respect the birds and the habitat. On Feb 6, 2012, at 8:02 AM, Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph.D. wrote: I’ve seen the same kind of behavior with folks trying to photograph seals and getting too close, or trying to flush the, from haulout sites. Educating these folks and having the MMPA as a threat goes a long way to help reduce the offensive behavior. I thoroughly understand the pique we all feel at those who have absolutely no respect for the ecosystems upon which they trod and within which they are photographing, but let’s remember that these folks don’t represent the majority. I think that it would be a shame to stop posting information about owls, or other interesting birds/wildlife. Perhaps one could post the general vicinity (e.g., Jones Beach, Breezy Point, etc.) within posting the specifics, and your images are geotagged, perhaps you can post them with minimal EXIF data embedded. If one is interested in the specifics, they can email the poster and request that info. Artie Arthur H. Kopelman, Ph. D. President, Coastal Research and Education Society of Long Island _president@cresli.org_ (mailto:presid...@cresli.org) _www.cresli.org _ (http://www.cresli.org/) 631-244-3352 ( e-mails scanned for viruses before sending) When the last individual of a race of living thing breathes no more, another heaven and another earth must pass before such a one can be again .. William Beebee P Be kind to the environment - unless you need to, please don't print this e-mail From: _bounce-39535655-3714799@list.cornell.edu_ (mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu) [mailto:bounce-39535655-3714...@list.cornell.edu] On Behalf Of Stella Miller Sent: Monday, February 06, 2012 7:14 AM To: _nysbirds-l@cornell.edu_ (mailto:nysbirds-l@cornell.edu) ; Gregory Fisher Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To jump into the fray here: I have personally witnessed more than just two people harassing snowy owls, in fact, I have observed, on several occasions, up to four or five photographers at a time deliberately flushing the bird, approaching it too closely, causing the bird to have to continually fly down the beach, paparazzi in tow. I have also had reports from friends who have witnessed this same behavior as recently as a week or so ago. In another example, just yesterday I was observing a screech owl near my house. Two photographers came over and started snapping away. I asked them to please be respectful of the bird, keep their distance and not disturb it. I then pretended to walk into the woods for a hike as they said they were leaving. As I entered the woods, I watched them go back to the owl, and heard their car horn go off several times. I cannot confirm, but it seemed as though they were trying to prompt the owl into opening its eyes. To their credit they did not approach closely, or stay long and did leave after 1/2 an hour. It is not just two guys, unfortunately there seems to be a growing rash of unethical behavior occurring, with boundaries being crossed that should not be. I agree with Seth, owls should not be listed on the listserv. Word of mouth has worked wonderfully in the past, in fact, I only joined the listserv a year or so ago and managed to hear about any and all owls that were being seen. Stella Miller President Huntington
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Careful. This post makes me uneasy. It smacks of vigilante justice. Moderation in all things. Bob Lewis Sleepy Hollow NY --- On Mon, 2/6/12, Dan peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com wrote: From: Dan peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it To: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Cc: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu nysbirds-l@cornell.edu, NY BIRDS Cornell NYSBirds-l@cornell.edu Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of birding war that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of disturbing birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -Original Message- From: Dan peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM To: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Cc: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu nysbirds-l@cornell.edu, NY BIRDS Cornell NYSBirds-l@Cornell.edu Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? Jacob On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote: Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of birding war that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of disturbing birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone. FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -Original Message- From: Dan peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM To: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Cc: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu nysbirds-l@cornell.edu, NY BIRDS Cornell NYSBirds-l@Cornell.edu Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
All of us should follow sensible rules that serve the welfare of the
wildlife we care about, {and the rules of this list serve are that
you provide your name with your post.}
I know that the vast majority of photographers are not behaving
poorly, but it only takes a few episodes to get a few people
rankled.
Over reaction is not helpful either
Why you are against a proposal to keep location information
undisclosed, when it appears that you are secreting the very
information you decry for being withheld? Have you reported to this
list the LEOW roost you have been watching for the past 5 years?
If you feel a sense of discomfort when you see birdwatchers, one can
only wonder why. I almost always carry my camera, and no one has
ever said anything to me about it.
Arie Gilbert
President: Queens County Bird Club Inc.
http://www.qcbirdclub.org
On 2/6/2012 4:07 PM, peregrin...@aol.com wrote:
I agree! Do not post owls as photographers like myself will
probably want to photograph them. The bashing continues and as
walk with a lens I always feel a sense of discomfort when I
see birdwatchers. Which is why I learned a long time ago to
keep my mouth shut about any birds I find..
So presently this year I will not disclose the location of
2 Snowy owls in Ulster County, 4 Saw Whets in Rockland County
and the 3 large historical roost sites of LEOWs I have been
watching for 5 years in Orange County..
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RE: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it
Photographers are clearly muggles, but the birding community has its share of deatheaters. Will Raup Albany, NY Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it From: jacobdruc...@msn.com Date: Mon, 6 Feb 2012 16:53:32 -0500 CC: gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com; peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com; nysbirds-l@cornell.edu To: fpimen...@verizon.net When will Harry Potter fans get involved in this discussion? Jacob On Feb 6, 2012, at 4:45 PM, Felipe Pimentel wrote:Dan, The problem with your suggestion is the potential danger of creating a kind of birding war that would not help to solve any problem but may create new ones, including potentially violent encounters in the field that we must avoid. More productive could be the development of some flexible guidelines by some local groups (like the Audubon society) about what birders or bird photographers should do and not do in the field. Codes of ethics are by definition general moral principles. In my humble opinion the best policy is self-restraint and a good sense of personal responsibility. There are issues that will never be solved. For example, the issue of disturbing birds or approaching birds. Maybe for a particular birder being too close to a bird means 50 feet away while for others may be only 30. Massive birding by definition is a potential disturbance for many birds. When you have 60 bird watchers congregated on the same spot that could create be more disturbance than a single photographer taking pictures of the same bird even at a closer distance. What I am trying to say is that things cannot be one-dimensional and that practical common sense cannot be like the Ten Commandments (for those who are believers), written in stone.FP On Feb 6, 2012, at 3:39 PM, Gregory Fisher wrote: Hey Dan, I am fine with that as long as you at least try to educate the individuals exhibiting the poor behavior. Some people are just ignorant and just need a little guidance. Yesterday's example by Adam is a prime example. You approach them, try to considerately educate them. When they resist and blow you off then communicate to others. Everyone deserves a fair shake. Greg -Original Message- From: Dan peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com Sent: Feb 6, 2012 3:35 PM To: Gregory Fisher gregoryfis...@sprintmail.com Cc: nysbirds-l@cornell.edu nysbirds-l@cornell.edu, NY BIRDS Cornell NYSBirds-l@Cornell.edu Subject: Re: [nysbirds-l] Knee jerk reaction to 2 guys that just didn't get it Let's all take photos of photographers that misbehave. Be SURE to post them to the appropriate listserve. If you see that photographer enter their vehicle, try to photograph the make and model and the license plate number too :) Good birding! Dan Furbish peterbilt.bir...@yahoo.com -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: Welcome and Basics Rules and Information Subscribe, Configuration and Leave Archives: The Mail Archive Surfbirds BirdingOnThe.Net Please submit your observations to eBird! -- -- NYSbirds-L List Info: http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsWELCOME http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsRULES http://www.NortheastBirding.com/NYSbirdsSubscribeConfigurationLeave.htm ARCHIVES: 1) http://www.mail-archive.com/nysbirds-l@cornell.edu/maillist.html 2) http://www.surfbirds.com/birdingmail/Group/NYSBirds-L 3) http://birdingonthe.net/mailinglists/NYSB.html Please submit your observations to eBird: http://ebird.org/content/ebird/ --
