Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What our dear brother has written is that Great Russian chauvinism consolidated itself with Stalin and basically that Lenin himself was not a manifestation of history development that confirms the status of the oppressing people . . . domination and chauvinism. Lenin was not a chauvinist . . . and neither was Stalin or Khrushchev and Brezhnev . . . for that matter. --- Actually the Soviet Union had affirmative action programs for minorities. That's why the elite in Bashkortostan are mostly Bashkirs, even though Bashkirs are a minority there (third-largest population in the republic after Russians and Tatars). __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
--- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there are other options besides secession: Ken mentions federalism, while simply increased democracy (including civil liberties and affirmative action) may do the trick in other situations. --- My personal favorite solution. It works for the rest of Russia, which is an enormously multiethnic country. Compare Chechnya and Dagestan, or Tatarstan. Ironically, Maskhadov, now that he's pretty much given up the independence idea and is struggling just to have some degree of power, is arguing that Chechnya's status in the Russian Federation should be basically like Tatarstan's -- broad autonomy. Considering that Tatarstan accomplished the same thing without firing a shot... well, you draw your own conclusions. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - Helps protect you from nasty viruses. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? - Lou P. and Mr. Green
In a message dated 7/28/2004 12:13:45 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I am simply interested in the proponents of self determination . . . Lou P . . . and Mr. Green and whether they have any material on their support of Regional autonomy for the Southwest in respects to Mexico and the Chicano. The sincerity of ones view is made manifest by their attitude toward the brethren in their own country. How does this self determination formula apply to the American Union in 2004. There are more African Americans in and around metropolitan Detroit than there are Chechens and the Nation of Islam was birthed in Detroit. Do you gentlemen support and advocate for the right of self determination of these real people . . . up to and including the formation of an independent state? Just curious. What is it going to be gentlemen. Dictatorship of the African American proletariat in an independent state system for African Americans? Dictatorship of the Mexican proletariat in an independent state system for Mexicans/Chicano and or the children of Atzlan? Dictatorship of theIndian proletariat in an independent state system for Indians? Pardon . . . the so-called national movements are by definition above classes. Now African Americans are not of course Jamaicans or simply black people. Without question the African American is oppressed and an authentic national question. The African American people have their own economic, social and political organizations and have always had them going back to the Negro Peoples Convention Movement. They are most certainly incarcerated on a scalewithout equalinAmerican history. Now Lenin, Stalin or Trotsky did not make slaves out of the African American or lynch them or segregate them for almost 90 years . . . but white people in America. Now Stalin or Putin ain't did nothing to me and mine and my parents, their parents and their parents parents . . . white people in America been real ugly and they are the ones that continue to enforce the second class citizenship. Minister Louis ain't did nothing to me or to white people in America. And he has a significant organization that does not require approval from white people or anyone else. Do you gentlemen advocate for self determination of African American up to and including formation of an independent state? Or is this something reserved for basically white people in America? Lenin, Stalin or Trotsky did not kill the Indians and Mexicans . . . but white people in America. What about Jews? There are Jews in America and they seem to qualify as oppressed . . . although the body of the African American intellectual elite does not subscribe to this view and not simply the Nation of Islam. It is a tricky game trying to speak for or advocate for others. What of Atzlan? What about the white people in the deep South who are not Yankees? Separate state and self determination? It is infinitely more of them than Chechens. There are more black teenagers than Chechens. Give me a break. These so called national movement . . . I also have Yugoslavia in mind . . . are utterly reactionary movements of and led by the bourgeoisie and none of them even talk about improving the life of the proletariat as proletariat. Minister Louis helps more black proletarians and advocates an economic program for them . . . than the reactionaries in Chechnya and the Ukraine. Melvin P
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? - Lou P. and Mr. Green
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Give me a break. These so called national movement . . . I also have Yugoslavia in mind . . . are utterly reactionary movements of and led by the bourgeoisie and none of them even talk about improving the life of the proletariat as proletariat. Minister Louis helps more black proletarians and advocates an economic program for them . . . than the reactionaries in Chechnya and the Ukraine. Reactionary is an understatement. The Chechen militants make Mussolini look progressive. (Death to the cities! Apartment buildings are the bane of humanity!) If you'd like I've got some primary sources on this in Russian I can translate and send. To my knowledge they are unavailable in English. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
Chris Doss wrote: Reactionary is an understatement. This is equally true of terrorists in Kashmir. About 70% of terrorists killed in Kashmir in the recent years have been non-Kashmiris. They are usually Punjabis trained by the ISI and smuggled into Kashmir. But other nationalities are also involved. e.g. Uighurs. How they can be regarded as freedom fighters and anti-imperialists is hard to understand. Ulhas Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
--- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: This is equally true of terrorists in Kashmir. About 70% of terrorists killed in Kashmir in the recent years have been non-Kashmiris. They are usually Punjabis trained by the ISI and smuggled into Kashmir. But other nationalities are also involved. e.g. Uighurs. How they can be regarded as freedom fighters and anti-imperialists is hard to understand. --- The Chechen fighters referred to in press releases are actually a motley group of Chechens, Afghans, Uzbeks, Ingush, Arabs, and others, including just plain mercenaries. When Basayev and Khattab attacked Dagestan, their group even had some Ukrainians, Balts and of all things an Ethiopian with German citizenship. They only took the bodies of the dead Chechens home and left the others to rot. Khattab was himself an Arab, as is/was his successor (I can't remember his name), who may have been killed. Why do these national-liberation fighters seem to rely so much on foreigners? Hmm. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
Ulhas Joglekar wrote: Chris Doss wrote: Reactionary is an understatement. This is equally true of terrorists in Kashmir. About 70% of terrorists killed in Kashmir in the recent years have been non-Kashmiris. They are usually Punjabis trained by the ISI and smuggled into Kashmir. what are the sources for these numbers? it would be worthwhile to study how and by whom a person is judged a terrorist, after which 70% of those classified are considered foreign. imho, the more important debate is regarding cause and effect: did local popular unrest and uprising lead to the influx of foreign terrorists? or did foreign terrorists bring about the image of local unrest? if the former is true, the discussion regarding the current composition and nature of activists/terrorists may prove to be a distraction. the widespread anti-muslim sentiments in india (dating back to the independence) and the record of abuse by the govt and armed forces in kashmir and other areas (punjab, for example) and by the hindu majority (in gujarat for example), should cast suspicion to any official positions or claims regarding the issue. --ravi
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--- ravi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: imho, the more important debate is regarding cause and effect: did local popular unrest and uprising lead to the influx of foreign terrorists? or did foreign terrorists bring about the image of local unrest? --- Maybe both are right? __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
Speak of the devil. Unnamed Sources Expect Iraq To Attract Arab Fighters from Chechnya, Kashmir Beirut Al-Diyar (Internet Version-WWW) in Arabic 03 Jul 04 [Report from Paris by Al-Diyar correspondent Badra Bakhus al-Faghali: Western sources expect Iraq to turn into a center for fundamentalists from Chechnya and Kashmir.] Western diplomatic sources expect Iraq to turn into a center attracting fundamentalists, especially Arab fighters from Chechnya and Kashmir, who suffer military pressures imposed on them in these regions. The same sources estimate the total number of Arab and foreign fighters who are affiliated with international fundamentalist organizations in Iraq at 1,000. These fighters came to Iraq to fight against US forces and to receive training on carrying out military operations before they return to their home countries. Half the number of these foreign fighters are Saudi nationals. However, most of the Saudis are now looking for ways to return to Saudi Arabia to reinforce fundamentalist cells in the kingdom after they received training in Iraqi camps. US forces are currently holding in Iraqi prisons some 500 men, mostly Kuwaitis, Saudis, Syrians, Lebanese, Egyptians, Jordanians, Yemenis, Algerians, Moroccans, and Afghans. After assuming its sovereign responsibilities, the Iraqi Government prepares to introduce entry visas for foreigners, to be issued by Iraqi embassies abroad. Its aim is to impose a better security control over the movement of passengers and goods to ensure that terrorist elements, weapons, and explosives will not enter Iraqi territories. This measure is also aimed at limiting the entry of journalists and businessmen from Western countries because there are no guarantees for their safety, as well as the entry of citizens of neighboring countries, which adopt policies that do not contribute to imposing peace in the country. The only exemption will be granted to military personnel of the United States and coalition countries, which have forces deployed in Iraq. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
ravi wrote: This is equally true of terrorists in Kashmir. About 70% of terrorists killed in Kashmir in the recent years have been non-Kashmiris. They are usually Punjabis trained by the ISI and smuggled into Kashmir. what are the sources for these numbers? I suggest you visit cemetaries in Kashmir where freedom fighters have been buried. Their names may give you some clues. imho, the more important debate is regarding cause and effect: did local popular unrest and uprising lead to the influx of foreign terrorists? or did foreign terrorists bring about the image of local unrest? The terrorist upsurge in Kashmir must be seen in the context of US led Jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan with Saudi funding and Pakistani support. if the former is true, the discussion regarding the current composition and nature of activists/terrorists may prove to be a distraction. The former, even if it is true, irrelevant today. The so-called self determination for Kashmiris will create a US protectorate in reality. Ulhas Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
Ulhas Joglekar wrote: ravi wrote: This is equally true of terrorists in Kashmir. About 70% of terrorists killed in Kashmir in the recent years have been non-Kashmiris. They are usually Punjabis trained by the ISI and smuggled into Kashmir. what are the sources for these numbers? I suggest you visit cemetaries in Kashmir where freedom fighters have been buried. Their names may give you some clues. are you being serious? assuming you are, questions remain: who buried these people? kashmiri locals? do the names suggest they are of punjabi origin? are there such data available? if you are not being serious, but sarcastic: that is unfortunate. i am not suggesting you are making up numbers. i am only pointing out that we need to examine the sources. if the indian govt claims that 70% of all terrorists killed are of foreign origin, it is not much different from the bush govt auditing its own excesses. The terrorist upsurge in Kashmir must be seen in the context of US led Jihad against the Soviets in Afghanistan with Saudi funding and Pakistani support. i find that quite plausible. nonetheless, it continues to leave open the issue of the original desire of the kashmiri people (though it does provide some evidence in favour of the thesis that unrest was introduced), which we discuss below: if the former is true, the discussion regarding the current composition and nature of activists/terrorists may prove to be a distraction. The former, even if it is true, irrelevant today. The so-called self determination for Kashmiris will create a US protectorate in reality. how can you say that the original expression of the local population is irrelevant today? if it is true that the kashmiri people wish to be rid of indian oppression, and we are afraid that the result will be a US protectorate, then our duty is not to deny the former, but to fight the latter, isn't it? --ravi
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
Ulhas Joglekar wrote: Chris Doss wrote: Reactionary is an understatement. This is equally true of terrorists in Kashmir. About 70% of terrorists killed in Kashmir in the recent years have been non-Kashmiris. Lately the resistance in Iraq has mainly been killing people at open-air markets. The anti-imperialist content of this strategy is hard to discern. Doug
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same as the anti-imperialist content of blowing up pubs in Guildford and Birmingham. Those who don't understand Ireland are doomed to repeat its history ... on the other hand, I suppose I should cheer up. Ireland is now a thriving and dynamic nation, and racial prejudice against the Irish would nowadays be regarded as a bad joke. Only took six hundred years, too. dd -Original Message- Lately the resistance in Iraq has mainly been killing people at open-air markets. The anti-imperialist content of this strategy is hard to discern. Doug
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--- Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lately the resistance in Iraq has mainly been killing people at open-air markets. The anti-imperialist content of this strategy is hard to discern. Doug --- It doesn't have anti-imperialist content. The point is to make themselves look badass on TV and Jihadi websites and get money and converts. That's why they always stage high-profile PR campaigns of zero military content, like the raid on Ingushetia or the attack on the Indian parliament. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
by Chris Doss --- Devine, James [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: there are other options besides secession: Ken mentions federalism, while simply increased democracy (including civil liberties and affirmative action) may do the trick in other situations. --- My personal favorite solution. It works for the rest of Russia, which is an enormously multiethnic country. Compare Chechnya and Dagestan, or Tatarstan. Ironically, Maskhadov, now that he's pretty much given up the independence idea and is struggling just to have some degree of power, is arguing that Chechnya's status in the Russian Federation should be basically like Tatarstan's -- broad autonomy. Considering that Tatarstan accomplished the same thing without firing a shot... well, you draw your own conclusions. ^^ CB: The SU had autonomous regions. I think Tibet is an autonomous region in China
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Ulhas Joglekar wrote: Chris Doss wrote: Reactionary is an understatement. This is equally true of terrorists in Kashmir. About 70% of terrorists killed in Kashmir in the recent years have been non-Kashmiris. Lately the resistance in Iraq has mainly been killing people at open-air markets. The anti-imperialist content of this strategy is hard to discern. Doug Have you added up all the Iraqi civilians killed by various factions of Iraqi and non-Iraqi terrorists and compared the number to that of Iraqi civilians killed by US and other foreign troops who invaded and have occupied Iraq and by economic sanctions before the invasion and occupation? Americans who vote for John Kerry who will be the next POTUS, aka the biggest terrorist and war criminal, have no moral standing to pretend to be appalled by un-American terrorists. Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. -- Yoshie * Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/ * Greens for Nader: http://greensfornader.net/ * Bring Them Home Now! http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/ * Calendars of Events in Columbus: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/calendar.html, http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php, http://www.cpanews.org/ * Student International Forum: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/ * Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osudivest.org/ * Al-Awda-Ohio: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio * Solidarity: http://www.solidarity-us.org/
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Charles Brown wrote: CB: The SU had autonomous regions. They were formally autonomous. In reality, there was Great Russian chauvinism from just around the time that Stalin was consolidating power. Lenin's concern over this matter prompted him to wage his final struggle against Stalin. http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm It is said that a united apparatus was needed. Where did that assurance come from? Did it not come from that same Russian apparatus which, as I pointed out in one of the preceding sections of my diary, we took over from tsarism and slightly anointed with Soviet oil? There is no doubt that that measure should have been delayed somewhat until we could say that we vouched for our apparatus as our own. Butr now, we must, in all consicence, admit the contrary; the apparatus we call ours is, in fact, still quite alien to us; it is a bourgeois and tasrist hotch-potch and there has been no posibility of getting rid of it in the course of the past five years without the help of other countries and because we have been busy most of the time with military engagements and the fight against famine. It is quite natural that in such circumstances the freedom to secede from the union by which we justify ourselves will be a mere scrap of paper, unable to defend the non-Russians from the onslaught of that really Russian man, the Great-Russian chauvinist, in substance a rascal and a tyrant, such as the typical Russian bureaucrat is. There is no doubt that the infinitesimal percentage of Soviet and sovietised workers will drown in that tide of chauvinistic Great-Russian riffraff like a fly in milk. It is said in defence of this measure that the People's Commissariats directly concerned with national psychology and national education were set up as separate bodies. But there the question arises: can these People's Commissariats be made quite independent? and secondly: were we careful enough to take measures to provide the non-Russians with a real safeguard against the truly Russian bully? I do not think we took such measures although we could and should have done so. I think that Stalin's haste and his infatuation with pure adminstration, together with his spite against the notorious nationalist-socialism, played a fatal role here. In politics spite generally plays the basest of roles. -- The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: Have you added up all the Iraqi civilians killed by various factions of Iraqi and non-Iraqi terrorists and compared the number to that of Iraqi civilians killed by US and other foreign troops who invaded and have occupied Iraq and by economic sanctions before the invasion and occupation? Americans who vote for John Kerry who will be the next POTUS, aka the biggest terrorist and war criminal, have no moral standing to pretend to be appalled by un-American terrorists. Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. What a load of crap. Elections are about contesting for power, and often involve debased compromises; votes aren't symptoms of moral purity. And why is it impossible to hold two thoughts in mind at once? The sanctions were murderous and the war a horrible crime. There's no doubt that the U.S. and its very junior partners have killed far more Iraqi civilians than the resistance. But there are some people on the western left - some of them members of PEN-L, even - who can't acknowledge that a lot of the Iraqi resistance consists of jihadists and unreconstructed Saddamites, i.e., absolutely awful forces. As Christian Parenti said when he returned from his first trip to Iraq - there's no way anything good can come of this. Doug
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At 11:05 AM -0400 7/29/04, Doug Henwood wrote: Have you added up all the Iraqi civilians killed by various factions of Iraqi and non-Iraqi terrorists and compared the number to that of Iraqi civilians killed by US and other foreign troops who invaded and have occupied Iraq and by economic sanctions before the invasion and occupation? Americans who vote for John Kerry who will be the next POTUS, aka the biggest terrorist and war criminal, have no moral standing to pretend to be appalled by un-American terrorists. Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. What a load of crap. Elections are about contesting for power, and often involve debased compromises; votes aren't symptoms of moral purity. And why is it impossible to hold two thoughts in mind at once? The sanctions were murderous and the war a horrible crime. There's no doubt that the U.S. and its very junior partners have killed far more Iraqi civilians than the resistance. But there are some people on the western left - some of them members of PEN-L, even - who can't acknowledge that a lot of the Iraqi resistance consists of jihadists and unreconstructed Saddamites, i.e., absolutely awful forces. As Christian Parenti said when he returned from his first trip to Iraq - there's no way anything good can come of this. Doug You have no moral right to be acting superior to terrorists, since you intend to vote for one. -- Yoshie * Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/ * Greens for Nader: http://greensfornader.net/ * Bring Them Home Now! http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/ * Calendars of Events in Columbus: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/calendar.html, http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php, http://www.cpanews.org/ * Student International Forum: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/ * Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osudivest.org/ * Al-Awda-Ohio: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio * Solidarity: http://www.solidarity-us.org/
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Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: You have no moral right to be acting superior to terrorists, since you intend to vote for one. But to be fair to John Kerry, he is only involved with state-sponsored terrorism. As far as I know, he has never been involved in a suicide bombing. Now he did apply botox to his forehead reportedly, but that did not affect innocent bystanders. -- The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
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From: Louis Proyect [EMAIL PROTECTED] Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: You have no moral right to be acting superior to terrorists, since you intend to vote for one. But to be fair to John Kerry, he is only involved with state-sponsored terrorism. As far as I know, he has never been involved in a suicide bombing. Now he did apply botox to his forehead reportedly, but that did not affect innocent bystanders. It could. Introducing a foreign substance like botox might cause Kerry's crags to crumble like those of the Old Man of the Mountain under the onslaught of winter ice fissures. http://www.cs.dartmouth.edu/whites/old_man.html Kerry bears an eerie resemblance to the OMM so the risk of burying passersby under his rubble shouldn't be taken lightly. Carl _ Express yourself instantly with MSN Messenger! Download today - it's FREE! http://messenger.msn.click-url.com/go/onm00200471ave/direct/01/
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ravi wrote: Kashmir: a US protectorate in reality. then our duty is not to deny the former, but to fight the latter, isn't it? How do you fight the latter? Btw, do CPI and CPM share your positions? Ulhas Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
In a message dated 7/29/2004 8:49:16 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: how can you say that the original _expression_ of the local population is irrelevant today? if it is true that the kashmiri people wish to be rid of indian oppression, and we are afraid that the result will be a US protectorate, then our duty is not to deny the former, but to fight the latter, isn't it? --ravi Comment The national factor is a tricky question . . . most certainly attempting to assert what the oppressed want. The bottom line is that the oppressed do not want to be oppressed . . . and how this is articulated as politics and ideology depends on the organizations doing the articulation. In respects to the African American people . . . and not simply any black group of people in America . . . the Nation of Islam cannot be ignored. Although I personal understand the national factor in relations to African Americans different from the fluctuating and changing policy of the Nation of Islam . . . I find nothing offense in their official Theology and their prophecy of the Original Black Man . . . once one reduce this theology to its basic logic structure. After all the most modern evidence I am aware of tracing mankinds origin on earth back to Mother Africa and the women called "Eve." Affirmative action programs do not and cannot solve the fundamental problem of a historically forced and institutionalized social position of the African American people as a people. When one even mentions the shattering and break up of the US multinational state many so-called progressives, revolutionaries and even Marxists become eerily quiet. The self determination program up to and including the formation of an independent state is evidently reserved for "genuine movements of the oppressed" outside the boundary of our own bourgeoisie. I have never advocated a program of integration because the African American people have always been integrated into American society at the bottom. Desegregation and so-called integration are radically different political constructs. African Americans were owned by the whites - North and South, and no issue in our country is as emotionally charged as the so-called "Negro Question." The socialists and many communist do not even know how to approach the question and apparently wish it would just go away. Well, 40 million people cannot "just go away." Nor . . . can they be placed on "reservations." The physical mass of the African American people means their social position can only be maintained through state coercion and heavy does of violence and incarceration . . . that, since their formation as a people makes Stalin's policy on the national factor seem like a Saturday night basement party. The location of the African American at the heart of the American proletariat and their physical mass . . . as well as dispersal throughout the country makes for an interesting National Factor. The national factor everywhere on earth deals with economic centers of gravity. Now the Mexican nationals that flow back and forth across the Mexican/US border . . . and the Mexican national minority that resides in the American Union . . . and the Chicano and/or children of Atzlan are in their mass - density, located throughout the Southwest that gravitates economically and socially to Mexico because this area was part of Mexico. Regional autonomy is the obvious short term solution from the standpoint of the communists of the North of the American Union. Even the term American Union is avoided like the plague by virtually all the so called revolutionaries and progressives in the American Union. The African American people as a historically evolved people . . .THAT ARE NOTAnglo Americans . . . according to how every ANGLO AMERICAN writer and political figure in the history of American has defined Anglo-Americans as a collection of peoples . . . simmering in the "melting pot" . . . are not a nation . . . but rather a historically evolved people. What ever the economic, social, political, cultural and psychological reasons that the Anglo American people define themselves as different or NOT AFRICAN AMERICAN . . . is the meaning of the national character of the Anglo-American people as a people. The reason Mark Twain or Michael Moore or Bill Clinton or George Bush are not self defined as African American ... establishes the national character of the African American people. I do not believe it is wish or serious thinking to separate historically evolved people on the basis of that which makes them different and define themselves as different in relationship to one another . . . on the basis of that which defines them as different. Difference or that by which people define themselves as different . . . especially as understood by the ruling or oppressor people and the striving of the oppressed not to be oppressed is not the
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
yoshie writes: Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. why so much emphasis on an essentially powerless and thus meaningless act, an individual vote? jim devine
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Louis: Now he did apply botox to his forehead reportedly, but that did not affect innocent bystanders. Carl: It could. Introducing a foreign substance like botox might cause Kerry's crags to crumble like those of the Old Man of the Mountain under the onslaught of winter ice fissures. it's also possible that they injected botox directly into his brain, as seems to have happened with some Hollywood people (given their behavior). jd
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I don't want to sound patronising, nor like a single-issue obsessive, but all of these conversational gambits were tried on the British left during the Troubles and it's not obvious that they did a lot of good. dd -Original Message- You have no moral right to be acting superior to terrorists, since you intend to vote for one. -- Yoshie * Crit//www.solidarity-us.org/
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--- Doug Henwood wrote: Lately the resistance in Iraq has mainly been killing people at open-air markets. The anti-imperialist content of this strategy is hard to discern. Chris Doss: It doesn't have anti-imperialist content. The point is to make themselves look badass on TV and Jihadi websites and get money and converts. That's why they always stage high-profile PR campaigns of zero military content, like the raid on Ingushetia or the attack on the Indian parliament. The terrorist theory is that by blowing things up, the powers that be will crack down and alienate the population, so that the population will join the insurgent movement. Specifically in Iraq, it's supposed to show that the US hasn't brought order to the country. The hope is that the people will blame the US for the killings. Lenin was against this kind of stuff. That fact makes me more sympathetic to old Vlad... jim
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Devine, James wrote: yoshie writes: Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. why so much emphasis on an essentially powerless and thus meaningless act, an individual vote? It's testimony to the powers of American assimiliation that several years of living in Columbus, Ohio, turned a Japanese Marxist (i.e., one who sees politics in terms of institutions and structures) into an American green (i.e., one who sees politics as a matter of individual moral gestures). Doug
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
--- Charles Brown [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: CB: The SU had autonomous regions. -- Russia still does. Tatarstan is the case in point. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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Ulhas Joglekar wrote: ravi wrote: Kashmir: a US protectorate in reality. then our duty is not to deny the former, but to fight the latter, isn't it? How do you fight the latter? isn't the answer to that question what the broader context of this list is? or at least the humanist left is? i am hardly qualified to answer the question in any sufficient sense, but i think there are answers available... in the writings, recommendations and actions of various people (thoreau, gandhi, mlk, chomsky, feyerabend, ...). Btw, do CPI and CPM share your positions? i do not have a position, at least on kashmir, other than this: the wishes of the population need to be ascertained and honored in some manner that is satisfactory to them. i am not sure what the positions of the CPI and CPM are, since i am not a communist. the following provides some information: http://www.indianexpress.com/ie/daily/2809/ian09065.html Wary of a communal division of Jammu and Kashmir gaining acceptance among political circles and an increasing role for the US in the Valley, the Left parties stress on more autonomy for the state. AMRITH LAL analyses the position The position of the Indian mainstream Left on the Kashmir issue has been consistent right from the 1940s. The Left has always espoused the peculiar position of the state within the Indian union and the need to give it maximum autonomy. which seems like a good start to me. --ravi
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The terrorist theory is that by blowing things up, the powers that be will crack down and alienate the population, so that the population will join the insurgent movement. Specifically in Iraq, it's supposed to show that the US hasn't brought order to the country. The hope is that the people will blame the US for the killings. Wouldn't the most logical reaction be to hate both parties involved? That seems to be the reaction in Chechnya and the Caucasus. Basayev and Maskhadov have near-zero street cred, as far as I can tell, as does the pro-Kremlin government. BTW I found this interview with Kadyrov, the head of the pro-Kremlin security force and son of the recently assassintade president of Chechnya, to be quite interesting. Man does he come across like a badass mo-fo. I wouldn't want to mess with him. Translated from Russian. Ramzan Kadyrov Quizzed on Ingushetia Raid, Backing for Alkhanov, Russian Troops Moscow Moskovskiy Komsomolets in Russian 15 Jul 04 p 4 [Interview with [Chechen First Vice Premier] Ramzan Kadyrov by Irina Kuksenkova, datelined Tsentoroy-Moscow; date not specified: The Heir. Ramzan Kadyrov in Exclusive Interview with Moskovskiy Komsomolets: 'I Always Wanted To Secure Freedom for Myself and All My Fellow Countrymen' -- taken from HTML version of source provided by ISP] Tsentoroy-Moscow -- [passage omitted comprising introductory paragraphs] Ramzan Kadyrov will give Moskovskiy Komsomolets an interview. At his home in Tsentoroy, I was told during a telephone call from an official in the Chechen president's security service. He met me in the evening at Mineralnyye Vody Airport. [passage omitted on journey to Tsentoroy, describing Ramzan Kadyrov's home, noting Kadyrov's preliminary remarks about his love for Groznyy, hopes for Chechnya] [Kuksenkova] Let us return to recent events in Ingushetia. Why did the gunmen attack Nazran, what statement did they want make in doing this? [Kadyrov] They did not want to make any statement. They needed weapons, they took them and off they went. That is logical... This blunder represents weakness on the part of the Ingushetian leadership. Devils [shaytany] are at work there in the police (Ramzan describes corrupt cops as devils -- author's note). A conference of Caucasus peoples was recently held in Sochi and attended by Putin. At the time I told [Ingushetian President] Murat Zyazikov: Get a move on, there are said to be many devils in your republic, we have begun seeing similar sentiments and movements from you. He said that he would work on it... None of the republics in the Caucasus wants anarchy at home. After all, where there are Wahhabites, there is always bloodshed, that is written in the Koran. This happened in Ingushetia due to breaches in state structures. And the same thing will happen in Dagestan. They have loads of devils there. In Chechnya the gunmen do not have many opportunities at present because we have really piled the pressure on them. And we have good leaders now. [Kuksenkova] Which gunmen attacked Nazran that night? [Kadyrov] Magas (that is his call sign) was in command, Zaid was there, there was an Arab Abu-Umar, and Basayev... But Basayev is not a Chechen. His father was an Ossetian or an Avar. And, pardon me for saying so, that is not a Chechen. There is no need to say Chechens, Ingush, Russians, or Americans: A bandit is a bandit even in Africa. What is more, it is you journalists who have castigated the Chechens. I do not actually like Moscow journalists. Many of them lie and are corrupt. Some of them are trying to foment war in our republic themselves. Tell me, can you see a war? You write the stories. I have tried to explain the situation, I have gotten tired of arguing the point. I do not pay attention to the press now. We are simply not left in peace, Chechens are set against one another. You yourselves do not do the killing, but you incite us to bloodshed. Now I will read Moskovskiy Komsomolets... Certainly. [Kuksenkova] Is it true that you are courting [NTV presenter] Aset Vatsuyeva? [Kadyrov] Asey? That is news to me! We will call Mrs. Vatsuyeva now and she will tell you about our relationship. Hello, Asiyat? Hi! How are things? I wanted to ask you something... It is being said that I am courting you. What do you think about that? [Kadyrov ends] Ramzan put the phone to my ear -- Aset gave a peal of laughter. [Vatsuyeva] He dumped me a long time ago. [Kadyrov] Asya is a smart woman, he said turning to me. An example of a real Chechen woman. We are all proud of her... There is no force more powerful than a woman. All her strength lies in her weakness. [Kuksenkova] Why are you backing Alu Alkhanov in the upcoming election? [Kadyrov] Because he is an astute, wise, competent politician, a very interesting individual, a man of his word, generally speaking, a real Chechen. Alu has inside knowledge of Chechnya's problems,
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
In a message dated 7/29/2004 9:58:32 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Charles Brown wrote: CB: The SU had autonomous regions.They were formally autonomous. In reality, there was Great Russianchauvinism from just around the time that Stalin was consolidatingpower. Lenin's concern over this matter prompted him to wage his finalstruggle against Stalin.http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htmIt is said that a united apparatus was needed. Where did that assurancecome from? Did it not come from that same Russian apparatus which, as Ipointed out in one of the preceding sections of my diary, we took overfrom tsarism and slightly anointed with Soviet oil?There is no doubt that that measure should have been delayed somewhatuntil we could say that we vouched for our apparatus as our own. Butrnow, we must, in all consicence, admit the contrary; the apparatus wecall ours is, in fact, still quite alien to us; it is a bourgeois andtasrist hotch-potch and there has been no posibility of getting rid ofit in the course of the past five years without the help of othercountries and because we have been "busy" most of the time with militaryengagements and the fight against famine.It is quite natural that in such circumstances the "freedom to secedefrom the union" by which we justify ourselves will be a mere scrap ofpaper, unable to defend the non-Russians from the onslaught of thatreally Russian man, the Great-Russian chauvinist, in substance a rascaland a tyrant, such as the typical Russian bureaucrat is. There is nodoubt that the infinitesimal percentage of Soviet and sovietised workerswill drown in that tide of chauvinistic Great-Russian riffraff like afly in milk.It is said in defence of this measure that the People's Commissariatsdirectly concerned with national psychology and national education wereset up as separate bodies. But there the question arises: can thesePeople's Commissariats be made quite independent? and secondly: were wecareful enough to take measures to provide the non-Russians with a realsafeguard against the truly Russian bully? I do not think we took suchmeasures although we could and should have done so.I think that Stalin's haste and his infatuation with pure adminstration,together with his spite against the notorious "nationalist-socialism",played a fatal role here. In politics spite generally plays the basestof roles.
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
me: The terrorist theory is that by blowing things up, the powers that be will crack down and alienate the population, so that the population will join the insurgent movement. Specifically in Iraq, it's supposed to show that the US hasn't brought order to the country. The hope is that the people will blame the US for the killings. Chris D: Wouldn't the most logical reaction be to hate both parties involved? The theory behind individual (or retail) terrorism isn't especially logical. It's a sign of political/military weakness and often, it seems, intellectual weakness. (I don't know about the Iraqis, but I'm thinking of such people as the Symbionese Liberation Front.) By the way, though I support the Iraqi right to resist the US occupation, I don't think that a strategy that involves killing civilians (= terrorism) is the way to go, even from an Iraqi point of view. State (or wholesale) terrorism is a bit more logical: you've got the bombers and lots of bombs and you can simply terrorize the population to obey. Might makes right, in practice (though not in ethical terms). Of course, it didn't work out that well for the US in Iraq. Jim Devine
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
In a message dated 7/29/2004 9:58:32 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Charles Brown wrote: CB: The SU had autonomous regions. They were formally autonomous. In reality, there was Great Russian chauvinism from just around the time that Stalin was consolidating power. Lenin's concern over this matter prompted him to wage his final struggle against Stalin. http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm It is said that a united apparatus was needed. Where did that assurance come from? Did it not come from that same Russian apparatus which, as I pointed out in one of the preceding sections of my diary, we took over from tsarism and slightly anointed with Soviet oil? It is quite natural that in such circumstances the "freedom to secede from the union" by which we justify ourselves will be a mere scrap of paper, unable to defend the non-Russians from the onslaught of that really Russian man, the Great-Russian chauvinist, in substance a rascal and a tyrant, such as the typical Russian bureaucrat is. There is no doubt that the infinitesimal percentage of Soviet and sovietised workers will drown in that tide of chauvinistic Great-Russian riffraff like a fly in milk. But there the question arises: can these People's Commissariats be made quite independent? and secondly: were we careful enough to take measures to provide the non-Russians with a real safeguard against the truly Russian bully? I do not think we took such measures although we could and should have done so. I think that Stalin's haste and his infatuation with pure adminstration, together with his spite against the notorious "nationalist-socialism", played a fatal role here. In politics spite generally plays the basest of roles. Comment Lenin of course is dead . . . as is the Leninist presentation of the national question. The national question died as a national question before Lenin's death and became a colonial question with all its ramifications to the actual alignment of class forces in the post First Imperial War era. The national colonial question under went further change in the Post Second Imperial World War era and the rise of the so-called Third World. We of course know today where the Third Path leads . . . into the waiting arms of the bourgeoisie. The national-colonial question under went further change after the victory of the revolutionary forces in Vietnam. Today the national factor presents itself different from in the 1970s and 1980s. Leninism is very dead and Lenin needs to be buried and taken off of display. Actually . . . Lenin was incorrect on his writings on the Negro Question. His economic analysis is incorrect as is his formulation of the African American people as a people and his description of the social relations of the old plantation South. He is simply wrong. He is wrong and this is no crime. However, he was more correct than the American communists and Socialists of the period of his writings. These revolutionaries during this era in history are scoundrels and more than less outright chauvinists. Stalin's writings on the national factor are more correct than Lenin's . . . although had Lenin not died . . . and he died . . . he would have altered the conception of the national factor between 1920 and the end of the Second World Imperial War. The national factor cannot be resolved on the basis of the industrial system and in America this is obvious to anyone except those with blinders on and hopelessly addicted to their own ideology. One cannot legislate away an intractable social position that is class and class configuration. All policy enacted is by default inadequate and administrative. The quote above proves the opposite of what is stated as Lenin's reasoning. Any one that takes time to actually read what Lenin states comes to the conclusion that Great Russian chauvinism did not begin consolidation around 1922 . . . but was already consolidated as the state . . . before . . . the Soviet's took over. Big countries and large states drive history and this is not going to change because one ideologically disagrees with this reality. History has proven Lenin incorrect on several actual curves of historical development. Lenin was also wrong in history in the sense that there was no direct revolutionary support of an insurrectionary Europe. Folks are still waiting on an insurrectionary "Europe" and a comeback of the Jackson 5. Regional autonomy is in fact an administrative solution because what determines the day is economic centers of gravity. The issue is deeper than its presentation by the oppressing people. The national factor or the national question is a question formulated by the oppressing people . . . not the oppressed. An autonomous region is not a state structure as such . . . that is independent of the multinational state or the economic centers of gravity upon which
Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
by Louis Proyect Charles Brown wrote: CB: The SU had autonomous regions. They were formally autonomous. In reality, there was Great Russian chauvinism from just around the time that Stalin was consolidating power. Lenin's concern over this matter prompted him to wage his final struggle against Stalin. http://www.marxists.org/archive/lenin/works/1922/dec/testamnt/autonomy.htm ^^ CB: In this, Lenin actually discusses sovereign republics , not autonomous regions: The Question of Nationalities or Autonomisation I suppose I have been very remiss with respect to the workers of Russia for not having intervened energetically and decisively enough in the notorious question of autonomisation, which, it appears, is officially called the question of the Soviet socialist republics. CB: Nonetheless, the problem of great power, Russian chauvinism would be pertinent to autonomous regions. Lenin doesn't say don't establish autonomous regions, but that the Party must struggle against Russian chauvinism in doing so. ( Russian chauvinism arose centuries before Stalin consolidated power) And Lenin outlines issues for struggling against chauvinism including affirmative action: That is why internationalism on the part of oppressors or great nations, as they are called (though they are great only in their violence, only great as bullies), must consist not only in the observance of the formal equality of nations but even in an inequality of the oppressor nation, the great nation, that must make up for the inequality which obtains in actual practice. Anybody who does not understand this has not grasped the real proletarian attitude to the national question, he is still essentially petty bourgeois in his point of view and is, therefore, sure to descend to the bourgeois point of view
Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
by Devine, James . The terrorist theory is that by blowing things up, the powers that be will crack down and alienate the population, so that the population will join the insurgent movement. Specifically in Iraq, it's supposed to show that the US hasn't brought order to the country. The hope is that the people will blame the US for the killings. ^^ CB: Are none of these killings done by agent provacateurs undercover for the U.S. ?
Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Devine, James wrote: yoshie writes: Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. why so much emphasis on an essentially powerless and thus meaningless act, an individual vote? ^^ CB: However, isn't this in response to criticism of the essentially powerless act of supporting the Iraqi resistance on an email list ?
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Hasn't this gone on long enough? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
me: The terrorist theory is that by blowing things up, the powers that be will crack down and alienate the population, so that the population will join the insurgent movement. Specifically in Iraq, it's supposed to show that the US hasn't brought order to the country. The hope is that the people will blame the US for the killings. CB: Are none of these killings done by agent provacateurs undercover for the U.S. ? I don't know. But the fact that the powers that be often see the use of agents provocateurs to encourage terrorist tactics among the opposition as a way to undermine the opposition fits with my critique of the terrorist theory. (However, I'd bet that some of the agents provocateurs encourage the people they've infiltrated to engage in ultra tactics simply because they're bored with meetings or have personality disorders.) jd
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
CB: However, isn't this in response to criticism of the essentially powerless act of supporting the Iraqi resistance on an email list ? at least participation on an e-mail list sometimes provides intrinsic pleasures. jim
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
Cool it, Yoshie. On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 11:12:55AM -0400, Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: You have no moral right to be acting superior to terrorists, since you intend to vote for one. -- -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
Devine, James wrote: yoshie writes: Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. why so much emphasis on an essentially powerless and thus meaningless act, an individual vote? It's testimony to the powers of American assimiliation that several years of living in Columbus, Ohio, turned a Japanese Marxist (i.e., one who sees politics in terms of institutions and structures) into an American green (i.e., one who sees politics as a matter of individual moral gestures). Doug If voting is merely an individual moral gesture, why not make a better moral gesture than a worse one, such as refusing to vote for a terrorist? -- Yoshie * Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/ * Greens for Nader: http://greensfornader.net/ * Bring Them Home Now! http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/ * Calendars of Events in Columbus: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/calendar.html, http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php, http://www.cpanews.org/ * Student International Forum: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/ * Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osudivest.org/ * Al-Awda-Ohio: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio * Solidarity: http://www.solidarity-us.org/
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
They were formally autonomous. In reality, there was Great Russian chauvinism from just around the time that Stalin was consolidating power. Lenin's concern over this matter prompted him to wage his final struggle against Stalin. --- If a Georgian with a goofy accent can be a Great Russian chauvinist. Let's see, Stalin - Georgian, Khrushchev = Ukrainian, Brezhnev = probably an ethnic Ukrainian from Moldova, Gorbachev = from Ukraine too... hey, were any of the Great Russian chauvinist leaders actually Russian? Nope. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
yoshie writes: Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. why so much emphasis on an essentially powerless and thus meaningless act, an individual vote? jim devine Because, at bottom, it's a matter of avoiding a double standard of condemning terrorism committed by un-Americans and supporting American terrorists. -- Yoshie * Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/ * Greens for Nader: http://greensfornader.net/ * Bring Them Home Now! http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/ * Calendars of Events in Columbus: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/calendar.html, http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php, http://www.cpanews.org/ * Student International Forum: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/ * Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osudivest.org/ * Al-Awda-Ohio: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio * Solidarity: http://www.solidarity-us.org/
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If voting is merely an individual moral gesture, why not make a better moral gesture than a worse one, such as refusing to vote for a terrorist? -- Yoshie How do you know Nader wouldn't be a terrorist? __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - You care about security. So do we. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Chris Doss wrote: If a Georgian with a goofy accent can be a Great Russian chauvinist. What does his accent have to do with anything? More to the point, Stalin's individual characteristics have little to do with the *social process* at work in the USSR, which Trotsky accurately described as Thermidor. The Great Russian chauvinism went hand in hand with hostility to gay rights, feminism, experimentalism in the arts, workers democracy and every other emancipatory impulse in the USSR. Stalin was transmitting the social pressure of Czarist officialdom, which was re-emerging in the 1920s in the vacuum created by the civil war, and a general rightward climate brought on by imperialism and the failure to make socialist revolution in the West--a failure in itself directly attributable to the Kremlin's own lack of Marxist insights. -- The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
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OK.Let's end this thread right away! -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state? -
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Affirmative action programs do not and cannot solve the fundamental problem of a historically forced and institutionalized social position of the African American people as a people. When one even mentions the shattering and break up of the US multinational state many so-called progressives, revolutionaries and even Marxists become eerily quiet. The self determination program up to and including the formation of an independent state is evidently reserved for genuine movements of the oppressed outside the boundary of our own bourgeoisie. the point i raise is that the status of genuine movement of the oppressed may be denied to the kashmiris in exactly the same way, in india, as you suggest it is denied to african americans in the US! --ravi
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At 11:19 AM -0700 7/29/04, Chris Doss wrote: If voting is merely an individual moral gesture, why not make a better moral gesture than a worse one, such as refusing to vote for a terrorist? -- Yoshie How do you know Nader wouldn't be a terrorist? If he becomes one, we will fight against him also, but at this point, the difference between Kerry/Edwards's plan for Iraq and Nader/Camejo's plan for Iraq is night and day, and it is the latter leftists ought to support. At 5:28 PM +0100 7/29/04, Daniel Davies wrote: I don't want to sound patronising, nor like a single-issue obsessive, but all of these conversational gambits were tried on the British left during the Troubles and it's not obvious that they did a lot of good. Since the 9/11 terrorist attacks, there has not been a similar terrorist attack in the mainland United States. If we let Washington continue its occupation of Iraq, however, more terrorist attacks will be definitely committed against Americans (and nationals of countries whose governments foolishly have allied with Washington) overseas, and perhaps even here. Politics is indeed a matter of compromise, and in 2004, we ought to compromise on card checks, stem cell research, and so forth, rather than on the occupation of Iraq. Yoshie * Critical Montages: http://montages.blogspot.com/ * Greens for Nader: http://greensfornader.net/ * Bring Them Home Now! http://www.bringthemhomenow.org/ * Calendars of Events in Columbus: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/calendar.html, http://www.freepress.org/calendar.php, http://www.cpanews.org/ * Student International Forum: http://sif.org.ohio-state.edu/ * Committee for Justice in Palestine: http://www.osudivest.org/ * Al-Awda-Ohio: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Al-Awda-Ohio * Solidarity: http://www.solidarity-us.org/
Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
by Chris Doss --- If a Georgian with a goofy accent can be a Great Russian chauvinist. Let's see, Stalin - Georgian, Khrushchev = Ukrainian, Brezhnev = probably an ethnic Ukrainian from Moldova, Gorbachev = from Ukraine too... hey, were any of the Great Russian chauvinist leaders actually Russian? Nope. ^^ CB: Ah, but Chernenko, he was Russian :) http://lego70.tripod.com/image/ussr/chernenko.jpg Konstantin Ustinovich CHERNENKO b. September 11 [24], 1911, Bolshaya Tes', Minusinsk region, Yeniseysk province, Russian Empire d. March 10, 1985, Moscow, USSR Title: Chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet of the USSR () Term:April 11, 1984 - March 10, 1985 Elected: April 11, 1984, 1st session of the 11th Supreme Soviet Term began: April 11, 1984, took the chair after election End of term: March 10, 1985, deceased Born to a Russian peasant family in Siberia, Konstantin Chernenko the Communist Party in 1931 during his army service. In 1933-1941 he headed department of propaganda and agitation in Novosyolovo and Uyar regions. In 1941-1943 Chernenko was a secretary of the Krasnoyarsk regional party committee, but quit the job to study in the Higher School of Party Organizers, Moscow (1943-45). He was sent to Penza as a secretary of party provincial committee in charge of propaganda and agitation (1945-48). Then he was moved to Moldavia becoming head of agitation and propaganda department (1948-56), where he met Leonid Brezhnev http://lego70.tripod.com/ussr/brezhnev.htm , who brought him to Moscow (1956) to head mass agitation section of agitation and propaganda department of the Central Committee. In May 1960 - July 1965 Chernenko served as chief of the chancellery of the USSR Supreme Soviet Presidium. When Brezhnev took over the party leadership, he made Chernenko chief of the General Department (July 1965 - Nov. 1982). Elected a candidate member of the Central Committee (1966-1971) at the 23rd party congress, Chernenko was promoted to full membership (1971-1985) at the 24th congress. In 1976 he was elected secretary (March 5, 1976 - Feb. 13, 1984) of the Central Committee and joined the Politburo as candidate member (Oct. 3, 1977 - Nov. 27, 1978). Then he was quickly promoted to full membership (Nov. 27, 1978 - March 10, 1985). Chernenko was considered a close associate of Brezhnev, but after his death he was unable to rally a majority of the party factions behind his candidacy to be head of the party and lost out to Yury Andropov http://lego70.tripod.com/ussr/andropov.htm who became general secretary on Nov. 12, 1982. Andropov's reforms targeted at eliminating corruption and cutting privileges in the higher party ranks estranged the party bureaucracy. In attempt to return to Brezhnevism, the aging Politburo, of which seven members died in advanced age in 1982-1984, plumped for the conservative Chernenko, who was elected (Feb. 13, 1984) general secretary following the death of Andropov on Feb. 9. On April 11, 1984, Chernenko was elected chairman of the Presidium of the Supreme Soviet. However, deteriorating health of Chernenko made him unfit to govern effectively. His frequent absences from official functions left little doubt that his election had been an interim measure. He died in office on March 10, 1985. Sources: Text: Bolshaya Sovetskaya Entsiklopediya, 3rd edition; Annual Supplements to the Bolshaya Sovetskaya Entsiklopediya, 1985, 1986; Izvestiya TsK KPSS, 1990, No. 7, p. 130; The Britannica Encyclopaedia, Multimedia Edition, 1994-1998.
Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
by Louis Proyect -clip- ... and the failure to make socialist revolution in the West--a failure in itself directly attributable to the Kremlin's own lack of Marxist insights. CB: Failure to make socialist revolution in the West was not attributable to the Kremlin, was it ? Responsibility for that lies with the workers of the West.
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In a message dated 7/29/2004 12:47:43 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: And Lenin outlines issues for struggling against chauvinism including affirmative action: "That is why internationalism on the part of oppressors or "great" nations, as they are called (though they are great only in their violence, only great as bullies), must consist not only in the observance of the formal equality of nations but even in an inequality of the oppressor nation, the great nation, that must make up for the inequality which obtains in actual practice. Anybody who does not understand this has not grasped the real proletarian attitude to the national question, he is still essentially petty bourgeois in his point of view and is, therefore, sure to descend to the bourgeois point of view" Comment Brilliant . . . and here is the real problem. The material basis of chauvinism and in America white chauvinism is not ideology but economic logic and how social and class relations are institutionalized. The idea that Great Russian Chauvinism was consolidated with Stalin is preposterous and almost laughable if this was not a serious issue. Does not the beginning of what would become the Russian State go back at least 400 years? Affirmative action becomes an issue of policy because the oppressing nations are more economically advanced than the non sovereign peoples. I absolutely support a form of autonomous regions and areas for the Indian peoples in the American Union but they still must eat . . . have housing . . . and absolute and unconditional access to all the modern amenities of our society and this can only take place on the basis of an administrative act by the policy makers and holders of power in a New America. This question of the Kurds or the Soviet experience are important in the sense of informing us of what is possible during a historical era and what is not possible and the direction of policy. If a Georgian with a goofy accent can be a Great Russian chauvinist. Let's see, Stalin - Georgian, Khrushchev = Ukrainian, Brezhnev = probably an ethnic Ukrainian from Moldova, Gorbachev = from Ukraine too... hey, were any of the "Great Russian chauvinist" leaders actually Russian? Nope. If nothing else one has to at least try to understand and see the evolution of centers of economic gravity and state development of the more advance economic structures of the dominating peoples. Stalin or Khrushchev were not Great Russian Chauvinists as the ideologist assert . . . but inherited a certain historically evolved state system of government. In this regard Lou P. tends to the melodramatic and ideological and his anti-Sovietism blinds him to elementary logic. His writings on the African American people and the history of the communist movement are an affront to anyone with common sense and history in the communist movement. I have taken him to task on this question . . . and makes it clear that he would do better defining himself. He therefore defines the world around him because the moment he deals with American history he gets into trouble because he has not studied the issue and what he understands is down right bizarre. What our dear "brother" has written is that Great Russian chauvinism consolidated itself with Stalin and basically that Lenin himself was not a manifestation of history development that confirms the status of the oppressing people . . . domination and chauvinism. Lenin was not a chauvinist . . . and neither was Stalin or Khrushchev and Brezhnev . . . for that matter. Stalin's Soviet Union makes American history look like a freaking Friday night house party and the ideologists do not understand the facts of history and perpetually cry over democracy. I did the body count years ago and watched the incarceration rates over the last 40 years. My disagreement with the ideologists is profound - who suggest I be kicked off of Pen-L for talking about spanking my children, and has everything to do with economic logic and the economic centers of gravity of an epoch and historical era. My point is that one cannot engage an ideologists because they proceed from the contours of the interior of their mind and have no inkling about the life of our working class. The ideologist can validate no real activity as leaders of anything except their hollow conceptions. Mr. Lou P. is a chauvinist . . . and I do not mean a racists. One must read what he has written about the communist movement and the African American people and the nationality question in the Soviet Union. I have read all of his material several times that he has posted. He represents a different class and I come from the upper stratum of the working class and a former member of the labor aristocracy. The difference is that I am not politically stupid and understand that I was not from the lowest stratum of the proletariat. In respects to the African
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In a message dated 7/29/2004 1:22:52 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: OK.Let's end this thread right away!--Michael PerelmanEconomics DepartmentCalifornia State UniversityChico, CA 95929 Comment Sorry . . . sent last reply before rading this. No more from me. Melvin P.
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Even the fundamentalist suicide bombers dont usually just target open air markets. They target police or lineups of people waiting to sign up for security forces etc. The resistance is manifold. US forces are still prime targets and the toll of dead and injured is still rising day by day. Government officials are prime targets and have been dispatched in increasing numbers. Sabotage of oil and other facilities is also an aim as is to make supply lines unsafe driving up the cost of what is a continued occupation. You talk of unreconstructed Saddamites. I guess this contrasts with the reconstructed Saddamites such as Allawi who front for and co-operate with the imperial occupation. Cheers, Ken Hanly - Original Message - From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 10:05 AM Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Israel pushing for Kurdish state? - Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: Have you added up all the Iraqi civilians killed by various factions of Iraqi and non-Iraqi terrorists and compared the number to that of Iraqi civilians killed by US and other foreign troops who invaded and have occupied Iraq and by economic sanctions before the invasion and occupation? Americans who vote for John Kerry who will be the next POTUS, aka the biggest terrorist and war criminal, have no moral standing to pretend to be appalled by un-American terrorists. Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. What a load of crap. Elections are about contesting for power, and often involve debased compromises; votes aren't symptoms of moral purity. And why is it impossible to hold two thoughts in mind at once? The sanctions were murderous and the war a horrible crime. There's no doubt that the U.S. and its very junior partners have killed far more Iraqi civilians than the resistance. But there are some people on the western left - some of them members of PEN-L, even - who can't acknowledge that a lot of the Iraqi resistance consists of jihadists and unreconstructed Saddamites, i.e., absolutely awful forces. As Christian Parenti said when he returned from his first trip to Iraq - there's no way anything good can come of this. Doug
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
In a message dated 7/29/2004 2:05:52 PM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: by Louis Proyect-clip-... and the failure tomake socialist revolution in the West--a failure in itself directlyattributable to the Kremlin's own lack of Marxist insights.CB: Failure to make socialist revolution in the West was not attributable tothe Kremlin, was it ? Responsibility for that lies with the workers of theWest. Here is Mr. P chauvinism. He deliberately covers and distortsour own history and states that the Kremlin determined the organizational forms of the American proletariat and sabotaged the revolutionary process when we know different. The fundamental split institutionalized in the working class of our country occurred as the by product of the defeat of r\Reconstruction, which happened more than two decades before the Soviet Revolution. The origins and genisis of the insturional split resides in American history and slavery. Mr. P says it was the result of Stalin and Stalinism. This is not even a reasonable understanding of American history. Am I wrong to label him the chauvinists that he is and has always been? This is a man that suggested that I be kicked off of Pen-L because I said I spanked my kids on their hand for sticking a freaking folk in the electrical outlets. Melvin P.
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
I thought we were dropping this! -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
I posted before I had received the termination notice. Anyway my points are different. The whole idea that the resistance is mostly from fundamentalist bombers is misleading and the idea that even the suicide bombers let alone the resistance in general is mainly targeting open air markets is just plain wrong to put it politely. Cheers, Ken Hanly - Original Message - From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 3:40 PM Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Israel pushing for Kurdish state? I thought we were dropping this! -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Charles Brown wrote: by Devine, James . The terrorist theory is that by blowing things up, the powers that be will crack down and alienate the population, so that the population will join the insurgent movement. Specifically in Iraq, it's supposed to show that the US hasn't brought order to the country. The hope is that the people will blame the US for the killings. ^^ CB: Are none of these killings done by agent provacateurs undercover for the U.S. ? There would be no reason for this. The U.S. authorities know as well as the patriotic Resistance that in this case terror will be blamed on the U.S. As it should be. Given so outrageous a flouting of all human dececency and international law as the Occupation is (_The Occupation_, not just the invasion), everything that happens in Iraq at the present time is a U.S. crime, and only a u.s. crime. This is the same principle as most laws on murder in the u.s. recognize: any death during a felony (even if not commited by the felons) is first degree murder. There are and there should be no restraints on the Resistance, any more than there were on the French Resistance during the German Occupation. If I remember correctly, the French Resistance killed 5 or 6 French for every German they killed. Quite reasonable under such circumstances. No one has the _political_ right to condemn anything the Iraq resistance does. (I'm not interested in personal morality.) Carrol
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Horseshit. Oh, I'm sorry, is horsehit too harsh a word when faced with the bemused scepticism of the professional rationalist? In that case, horseshit. The latest, and perhaps most gruesome, car bombing was adjacent to a police recruitment center. Whether or not you approve of the targets in Ireland or Iraq is not the determining factor. The determining factor in both is the occupation. You don't like their choice of targets? Get your troops out. Do we need to remind you about certain gruesome practices of the Vietnames resistance to the French occupation? To the US occupation? Should we condemn the anti-apartheid fighters who blew cafes frequented by police and others? - Original Message - From: Chris Doss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Israel pushing for Kurdish state? - --- Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lately the resistance in Iraq has mainly been killing people at open-air markets. The anti-imperialist content of this strategy is hard to discern. Doug --- It doesn't have anti-imperialist content. The point is to make themselves look badass on TV and Jihadi websites and get money and converts. That's why they always stage high-profile PR campaigns of zero military content, like the raid on Ingushetia or the attack on the Indian parliament. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
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So then why, Mr. Henwood, have you given credence to the notion that the US presence might lend stability to Iraq? - Original Message - From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Israel pushing for Kurdish state? - Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: Have you added up all the Iraqi civilians killed by various factions of Iraqi and non-Iraqi terrorists and compared the number to that of Iraqi civilians killed by US and other foreign troops who invaded and have occupied Iraq and by economic sanctions before the invasion and occupation? Americans who vote for John Kerry who will be the next POTUS, aka the biggest terrorist and war criminal, have no moral standing to pretend to be appalled by un-American terrorists. Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. What a load of crap. Elections are about contesting for power, and often involve debased compromises; votes aren't symptoms of moral purity. And why is it impossible to hold two thoughts in mind at once? The sanctions were murderous and the war a horrible crime. There's no doubt that the U.S. and its very junior partners have killed far more Iraqi civilians than the resistance. But there are some people on the western left - some of them members of PEN-L, even - who can't acknowledge that a lot of the Iraqi resistance consists of jihadists and unreconstructed Saddamites, i.e., absolutely awful forces. As Christian Parenti said when he returned from his first trip to Iraq - there's no way anything good can come of this. Doug
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David, there is no need to talk that way. All you had to do was to explain the situation, BUT the thread is supposed to have expired anywhere. On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 10:23:17PM -0700, sartesian wrote: Horseshit. Oh, I'm sorry, is horsehit too harsh a word when faced with the bemused scepticism of the professional rationalist? In that case, horseshit. The latest, and perhaps most gruesome, car bombing was adjacent to a police recruitment center. Whether or not you approve of the targets in Ireland or Iraq is not the determining factor. The determining factor in both is the occupation. You don't like their choice of targets? Get your troops out. Do we need to remind you about certain gruesome practices of the Vietnames resistance to the French occupation? To the US occupation? Should we condemn the anti-apartheid fighters who blew cafes frequented by police and others? - Original Message - From: Chris Doss [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 7:30 AM Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Israel pushing for Kurdish state? - --- Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Lately the resistance in Iraq has mainly been killing people at open-air markets. The anti-imperialist content of this strategy is hard to discern. Doug --- It doesn't have anti-imperialist content. The point is to make themselves look badass on TV and Jihadi websites and get money and converts. That's why they always stage high-profile PR campaigns of zero military content, like the raid on Ingushetia or the attack on the Indian parliament. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Address AutoComplete - You start. We finish. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
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Damn it, David. Cut it out! On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 10:24:50PM -0700, sartesian wrote: So then why, Mr. Henwood, have you given credence to the notion that the US presence might lend stability to Iraq? - Original Message - From: Doug Henwood [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:05 AM Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Israel pushing for Kurdish state? - Yoshie Furuhashi wrote: Have you added up all the Iraqi civilians killed by various factions of Iraqi and non-Iraqi terrorists and compared the number to that of Iraqi civilians killed by US and other foreign troops who invaded and have occupied Iraq and by economic sanctions before the invasion and occupation? Americans who vote for John Kerry who will be the next POTUS, aka the biggest terrorist and war criminal, have no moral standing to pretend to be appalled by un-American terrorists. Only those who do not vote for Kerry or Bush have the moral standing to criticize foreign terrorists. What a load of crap. Elections are about contesting for power, and often involve debased compromises; votes aren't symptoms of moral purity. And why is it impossible to hold two thoughts in mind at once? The sanctions were murderous and the war a horrible crime. There's no doubt that the U.S. and its very junior partners have killed far more Iraqi civilians than the resistance. But there are some people on the western left - some of them members of PEN-L, even - who can't acknowledge that a lot of the Iraqi resistance consists of jihadists and unreconstructed Saddamites, i.e., absolutely awful forces. As Christian Parenti said when he returned from his first trip to Iraq - there's no way anything good can come of this. Doug -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
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sartesian wrote: So then why, Mr. Henwood, have you given credence to the notion that the US presence might lend stability to Iraq? I haven't, asshole.
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He has behaved ok until tonight. One more he is gone; or maybe I will just get him to resub to LBO. On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 10:51:40PM -0400, Doug Henwood wrote: sartesian wrote: So then why, Mr. Henwood, have you given credence to the notion that the US presence might lend stability to Iraq? I haven't, asshole. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
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My apologies; it was intended for Doug, but the posts from David tonight were not very nice, especially after I asked that the thread be discontinued. On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 08:42:15PM -0700, Michael Perelman wrote: He has behaved ok until tonight. One more he is gone; or maybe I will just get him to resub to LBO. On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 10:51:40PM -0400, Doug Henwood wrote: sartesian wrote: So then why, Mr. Henwood, have you given credence to the notion that the US presence might lend stability to Iraq? I haven't, asshole. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
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To the both of you: Fuck off and die, you self-important pricks. Threaten me because I stayed out past curfew? You know what you can do. And you know where to find me if you don't like it. - Original Message - From: Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, July 29, 2004 8:42 PM Subject: Re: [PEN-L] Israel pushing for Kurdish state? - He has behaved ok until tonight. One more he is gone; or maybe I will just get him to resub to LBO. On Thu, Jul 29, 2004 at 10:51:40PM -0400, Doug Henwood wrote: sartesian wrote: So then why, Mr. Henwood, have you given credence to the notion that the US presence might lend stability to Iraq? I haven't, asshole. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
that may be true, but would you then agree with BBC's assessment that it started as an essentially indigenous and popular uprising? if so, that is all the more reason to ask the people. counterinsurgency warfare might be a dirty business (and i doubt you condone it), but it is all the more dirty when the actions are partially aimed at silencing the people or denying them a voice. --ravi --- I don't know enough about the issue to answer whether it was popular or not. But you do not need to have a majority of the population on your side in order to have an indigenous uprising. The Chechen population, for instance, voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the Russian Federation (then, the Soviet Union) in 1991. That did not prevent extremists in the Chechen population from doing their thing, and the moderates were either forced out or fled. I don't know if the Kashmiri case is parallel or not. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
On 27 October 1991 the leader of the national movement, former Soviet General Dudayev, won the presidential elections in Chechnya. On November 2, the Russian Duma denounced the elections in Chechnya. On November 7, Yeltsin declared a state of emergency in Chechnya and ordered the arrest of Chechen president Dudayev. On November 9, 1991, Russian troops from the Interior Ministry flew into Khankala Airport outside the Chechen capital of Grozny. They were immediately blocked by the new Chechen national guard, while a huge mass meeting in Freedom Square in Grozny rallied around the Dudayev government. By evening, the Russian troops surrendered their weapons to the Chechens and were bused out of the airport and back to Russian positions. Thus ended the first Russian attempt to retake Grozny, a city they would later bomb the hell out of. Thus began a covert Russian war to recover Chechnya, leading to full-scale war in 1994, and on and on to the present. In July 2004, we are now informed that the majority of Chechens -- indeed, the overwhelming majority of Chechens -- opposed the national movement in 1991. Well, that's history a la Yeltsin Putin... That's occupier's history, history written with a bloody bayonet. The Duma denounced Chechen elections on November 2, so they never really occurred. Joseph Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chris Doss wrote: I don't know enough about the issue to answer whether it was popular or not. But you do not need to have a majority of the population on your side in order to have an indigenous uprising. The Chechen population, for instance, voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the Russian Federation (then, the Soviet Union) in 1991. That did not prevent extremists in the Chechen population from doing their thing, and the moderates were either forced out or fled. I don't know if the Kashmiri case is parallel or not. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
No, that's history according to history. Supporting Dudayev in 1991 is not the same as opposing the national movement in 1991. Look, mister alienatethepublicwiththenameofmywebsite.com, I actually know Chechens. Real-live Chechens. They live in Moscow. I get drunk with them. They do not support the jihadis. I am not going to argue this you. In July 2004, we are now informed that the majority of Chechens -- indeed, the overwhelming majority of Chechens -- opposed the national movement in 1991. Well, that's history a la Yeltsin Putin... That's occupier's history, history written with a bloody bayonet. The Duma denounced Chechen elections on November 2, so they never really occurred. Joseph Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chris Doss wrote: I don't know enough about the issue to answer whether it was popular or not. But you do not need to have a majority of the population on your side in order to have an indigenous uprising. The Chechen population, for instance, voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the Russian Federation (then, the Soviet Union) in 1991. That did not prevent extremists in the Chechen population from doing their thing, and the moderates were either forced out or fled. I don't know if the Kashmiri case is parallel or not. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Diane Monaco wrote: That being said and I agree again with you, the Kurds are an oppressed nationality. Period. Does it mean that the Left should support the breakup of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey? Ulhas Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Diane wrote: That being said and I agree again with you, the Kurds are an oppressed nationality. Period. Ulhas wrote Does it mean that the Left should support the breakup of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey? Ulhas Of course not. But I think your point is more along the lines of the foreign intellectual bases (both wings of the US intelligentsia) being almost always wrong about the components of local nationalism? Maybe? Being a Canadian, I have seen a steady stream of incorrect American reporting about Quebec, for instance. I think that sort of thing is what sets Canada apart from the U.S. Here, federalism actually exists... in that limited application of federalism versus local nationalism. I do not think ill of federalism, of itself. Ken. -- You're not your job. You're not how much money you have in the bank. You're not the car you drive. You're not the contents of your wallet. You're not your fucking khakis. You're the all-singing, all-dancing crap of the world. -- Tyler Durden
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Whoops, my mistake. I was confusing the Chechen-Ingush republic with the republic of Chechnya. --- Chris Doss [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: No, that's history according to history. Supporting Dudayev in 1991 is not the same as opposing the national movement in 1991. Look, mister alienatethepublicwiththenameofmywebsite.com, I actually know Chechens. Real-live Chechens. They live in Moscow. I get drunk with them. They do not support the jihadis. I am not going to argue this you. In July 2004, we are now informed that the majority of Chechens -- indeed, the overwhelming majority of Chechens -- opposed the national movement in 1991. Well, that's history a la Yeltsin Putin... That's occupier's history, history written with a bloody bayonet. The Duma denounced Chechen elections on November 2, so they never really occurred. Joseph Green [EMAIL PROTECTED] Chris Doss wrote: I don't know enough about the issue to answer whether it was popular or not. But you do not need to have a majority of the population on your side in order to have an indigenous uprising. The Chechen population, for instance, voted overwhelmingly to remain part of the Russian Federation (then, the Soviet Union) in 1991. That did not prevent extremists in the Chechen population from doing their thing, and the moderates were either forced out or fled. I don't know if the Kashmiri case is parallel or not. __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - 100MB free storage! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
In a message dated 7/28/2004 11:41:00 AM Central Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: Look, mister alienatethepublicwiththenameofmywebsite.com, I actually know Chechens. Real-live Chechens. They live in Moscow. I get drunk with them. They do not support the jihadis. I am not going to argue this with you. Comment What is called the national factor and oppressed peoples (without quotes) and national movements and the right to self determination within a multinational state system is apparently a source of considerable disagreement. I personally do not consider the various modern nationalists movements to be the meaning of "national movement" or anti-colonial revolts . . . especially within the former Soviet Union. There are roughly 40 million African Americans and perhaps 30 million Mexicans (incorporating Mexican national minorities and Chicano's) . . . various Indian nations or what I would personally called advanced national groups of Indians . . . Puerto Ricans outside of Puerto Rico but within the multinational state structure and federal system of the American Union . . . the Alaskan Eskimo's . . . the Aleutian and Hawaiian peoples and then the Appalachians and Southern whites who define their heritage very different from Yankee whites and all these peoples are to varying degrees oppressed. The various ideologists of self determination are asked if they support a seperate state for blacks as more than less advocated as a form of self determination by groups like the Nation of Islam? I mention the Natin of Islam because it is one of the oldest and most influential organizations amongst blacks and its paramount leader . . . Minister Louis . . . called for a Million Man march and brought together one of the largest mass meetings and protest to Washington in the history of America. This singular action led by Minister Louis set the bar for mobilization and became a radically new form of protest . . . with trade union leaders now calling for a Million Workers March . . . and other segments of the population doing likewise. Time to get real and compare ones attitude towards their own country men with that of the world. I am simply interested in the proponents of self determination . . . Lou P . . . and Mr. Green and whether they have any material on their support of Regional autonomy for the Southwest in respects to Mexico and the Chicano. The sincerity of ones view is made manifest by their attitude toward the brethren in their own country. How does this self determination formula apply to the American Union in 2004. There are more African Americans in and around metropolitan Detroit than there are Chechens and the Nation of Islam was birthed in Detroit. Do you gentlemen support and advocate for the right of self determination of these real people . . . up to and including the formation of an independent state? Just curious. Personally . . . I do not support such a demand and recognize it as no more than the voice of the reactionary and conservative black bourgeoisie and an attempt to further subjugate the African American people and keep the under the heel of capital. Is self determination for the Indians up to the formation of an independent state supported by the self determination advocates and can they point to any writing on this subject advocating such? Is self determination for theMexican,the Alaskan Eskimo's . . . the Aleutian and Hawaiian peoples and then the Appalachians as somewhat distinct from the Southern whites who define their heritage very different from Yankee whites . . . up to the formation of an independent state supported by the self determination advocates and can they point to any writing on this subject advocating such? Melvin P.
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: How does this self determination formula apply to the American Union in 2004. There are more African Americans in and around metropolitan Detroit than there are Chechens and the Nation of Islam was birthed in Detroit. Do you gentlemen support and advocate for the right of self determination of these real people . . . up to and including the formation of an independent state? Just curious. --- Of course! We should be calling for the mass Balkanization of the United States. Every Indian reservation should be a separate country. Afro-Americans can get Mississippi and Detroit. The Southwest can go to the Hispanics. We can form a White Nation in the Northwest (wait, I've heard that idea before). No, that's too general: Italian-Americans can take Nevada, Polish-Americans Utah, German-Americans Nebraska. We can find a land without a people for the Jews. All of these litle statelets will be economically prosperous, politically flourishing, and at peace with their neighbors. A brilliant idea. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Diane writes; That being said and I agree again with you, the Kurds are an oppressed nationality. Period. Ulhas responds: Does it mean that the Left should support the breakup of Iran, Iraq, Syria and Turkey? there are other options besides secession: Ken mentions federalism, while simply increased democracy (including civil liberties and affirmative action) may do the trick in other situations. What's necessary depends on _concrete conditions_, not general rules. What to do with the four Kurdistans, for example, is not something that can be solved without serious discussion, debate, and struggle, including the Kurds and non-Kurds affected. My feeling is that in general, we don't need any new mini-states except under extraordinary conditions. Partitions are bloody, and it's often very hard to draw the line between national states (cf. the Balkans). Inter-ethnic marriages make partitioning really hard. I also think that _ethnic nationalism_ is the wrong basis for any country's unity, encouraging ethnic cleansing and the like. (How about _working class_ solidarity instead?) Further, new, small, states are particularly vulnerable to the predations of the IMF and multinational capital. Of course, it is self-evident that the unity of the 6 counties of Northern Ireland and the 26 counties of the Irish Republic should be pushed for. ;-) Jim Devine [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://bellarmine.lmu.edu/~jdevine
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
--- sartesian [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, You gave a better answer when you earlier when you said you didn't know. Assuming want Kashmiris want or don't want is exactly not the issue. The issue is the material determinants of the struggle, the history of the conflict in the area and what the resolution requires. True. And I don't know the issue very well. But what I see going on is Pakistan (or elements within Pakistan) and the international mujahedin trying to worsen -- and prolong -- an already bad situation. (They seem to like to do this kind of thing a lot.) I don't know about India, but in this part of the world, national determination movements are usually actually a small minority of crazed nationalists being manipulated by cynical politicians. The USSR national-determination-movemented itself out of existence 13 years ago, and everybody is worse off. So I am quite skeptical in general. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail - 50x more storage than other providers! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Hi Ravi, you wrote: --- ravi [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: i do not know about fighters, but definitely quite a few kashmiris have been killed in kashmir by indian forces. a simple search on amnesty.org for 'kashmir' yields multiple pages and reports of abuse and murder perpetrated by the indian govt and armed forces. --- It's counterinsurgency war -- the main victims in counterinsurgency war are always civilian. It's probably the most brutal form of warfare there is. I don't know about the state of the Indian Army, but most of the horrors against civilians in Chechnya (leavinf aside the tricky question of how to define the term civilian) are the result of terrified and trigger-happy drafted soldiers who want to get home alive and therefore shoot first and ask questions later. --- BBC What started as essentially an indigenous popular uprising in BBC Indian-administered Kashmir has in the last 12 years undergone BBC major changes. BBC ... BBC some of the groups that were in the forefront of the BBC armed insurgency in 1989 - particularly the pro-independence BBC Jammu-Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) - have receded into the BBC background. --- Sounds like Chechnya to me. I would go as far as to say that anytime the international mujaheedin start to figure prominantly in a conflict, it has almost certainly been hijacked. __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Louis wrote: Moreover, it is a mistake to lump all the Kurds together. The Workers Party in Turkey never cut deals with imperialism, while the Iranian Kurds were allied with the USSR at one point, until Stalin's typically cynical double-dealing forced them to look elsewhere. Of course, the Iraqi Kurdish leadership is utterly bankrupt. That being said, the Kurds are an oppressed nationality. Period. I agree with you, Louis. However, I have personally met many Kurds, Russians, and Iranians who have very close ties with each other, and they seem unified on some level. The Kurdish language is based on Persian and is part of the Indo-European language group. The Indo-European language family group includes Russian, Kurdish, Farsi, Pashto, Hindi, Bengali, Sanskrit, Ancient Persian, Greek, Latin, French, English, Celtic languages. I have also found that many members of these specific Indo-European language groups -- including Kurds -- find it very important to be aware of their Ancient parent (proto) Indo-European language/people origins -- an ancient Indo-European people referred to as Aryans. Turkish (the Altaic family), and Arabic-Hebrew (both from the Afro-Asiatic family) are part of entirely different language groups. That being said and I agree again with you, the Kurds are an oppressed nationality. Period. Diane
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Ulhas Joglekar wrote: ravi wrote: Let there be self-determination everywhere, from Bejing toHavana. in a general sense, why not? Surely, Cuban leadership (and this is only an example)should offer self-determination to Cubans before it demands demands self-determination for Kashmiris? i think if i understand you correctly, you are commenting on the hypocrisy of cuban support for kashmiris. that may be valid. can i infer further that you do not disagree with the content of their call: i.e., the kashmiri people deserve the right of self-determination? --ravi
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Chris Doss wrote: It's counterinsurgency war -- the main victims in counterinsurgency war are always civilian. It's probably the most brutal form of warfare there is. I don't know about the state of the Indian Army, but most of the horrors against civilians in Chechnya (leavinf aside the tricky question of how to define the term civilian) are the result of terrified and trigger-happy drafted soldiers who want to get home alive and therefore shoot first and ask questions later. BBC What started as essentially an indigenous popular uprising in BBC Indian-administered Kashmir has in the last 12 years undergone BBC major changes. Sounds like Chechnya to me. I would go as far as to say that anytime the international mujaheedin start to figure prominantly in a conflict, it has almost certainly been hijacked. that may be true, but would you then agree with BBC's assessment that it started as an essentially indigenous and popular uprising? if so, that is all the more reason to ask the people. counterinsurgency warfare might be a dirty business (and i doubt you condone it), but it is all the more dirty when the actions are partially aimed at silencing the people or denying them a voice. --ravi
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
raviwrote: i think if i understand you correctly, you are commenting on the hypocrisy of cuban support for kashmiris. that may be valid. can i infer further that you do not disagree with the content of their call: i.e., the kashmiri people deserve the right of self-determination? No, I don't agree. Kashmir is a part of India.India has been partitioned once with disastrous consequences. Do you want more partitions? Is anybody on the Left demanding right of self-determination for Tibet or Xinjiang? Why should it be different for Kashmir? Ulhas Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
... Kashmir is a part of India. India has been partitioned once with disastrous consequences. ... Ulhas I don't know much about this subject, but isn't a lot of Kashmir controlled by Pakistan? so isn't that section part of Pakistan, a country which has already been partitioned twice with disastrous consequences? wouldn't it be best if both India and Pakistan gave up their claims to the areas that the other controls? why does India want the Pakistan-controlled area of Kashmir? why does Pakistan want the India-controlled area? jd
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Devine, James wrote: I don't know much about this subject, but isn't a lot of Kashmir controlled by Pakistan? Yes, about a third of Kashmir is controlled by Pakistan. wouldn't it be best if both India and Pakistan gave up their claims to the areas that the other controls? Yes. India willing to accept the Line of Control (LOC) as the international border, but Pakistan isn't. why does India want the Pakistan-controlled area of Kashmir? The Simla Agreement of 1972 between India and Pakistan was meant to convert the LOC into the international boundary. why does Pakistan want the India-controlled area? For Pakistan, it's a logical extension of the Two Nation Theory,i.e. that Hindus and Muslims are separate nations. India and the Indian Left don't accept the Two Nation Theory. Ulhas Yahoo! India Matrimony: Find your life partner online Go to: http://yahoo.shaadi.com/india-matrimony
Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
The Hindu Monday, Jul 26, 2004 Israel pushing for Kurdish state? By Atul Aneja MANAMA, JULY 25. Relations between Turkey and Israel appear to be souring rapidly amid reports that Israeli commandos are training Kurds in northern Iraq to encourage the emergence of an independent Kurdish state. Israel has vociferously denied these reports, which acquired prominence in a recent article written by the American investigative journalist, Seymour Hersh, in The New Yorker magazine. In a damage control exercise, the Israeli Deputy Prime Minister, Ehud Olmert, rushed to the Turkish capital, Ankara, last week where he addressed this issue. At a press conference, Mr. Olmert said, I conveyed at every opportunity that we are not in northern Iraq and that we have never been active in that region. It is a lie that Israel is cooperating with Kurds. Israel and Turkey have been known as strategic partners and have had a strong military relationship. Israel has also viewed Turkey as its strategic anchor in West Asia a region that has been intensely hostile towards it. Turkey, however, has a huge stake in seeing that northern Iraq does not become independent. Fears of secession Turkey fears that an independent state at its doorstep Iraq could become the nucleus for a larger Kurdish nation, which could incorporate parts of its territory where Kurds reside in large numbers. Iran and Syria, which also have large Kurdish populations on their soil also share these apprehensions and have stood opposed to Kurdish secession in northern Iraq. Notwithstanding Israel's denial, the Turkish Prime Minister, Recep Tayyip Erdogan, signalled his unhappiness by declining to meet Mr. Olmert. He met Naci Otri, Prime Minister of Syria Israel's arch foe, who was also visiting Turkey at the same time. Differences between Turkey and Israel have also come out in the open over the Israeli treatment of Palestinians. Mr. Erdogan has not given much credence to reports of Israeli presence in northern Iraq, indicating that the dissonance could also be driven by other factors. Analysts point out that Ankara has begun to perceive that Israel opposes Turkey's attempt to enter the European Union its core foreign policy objective. Copyright © 2004, The Hindu. Yahoo! India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://yahoo.naukri.com/
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Ha. It's only a matter of time now until some of the same people who have been glorifying the Kurds as a long-oppressed victim-race now start vilifying them as tools of imperialism. --- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Hindu Monday, Jul 26, 2004 Israel pushing for Kurdish state? By Atul Aneja __ Do you Yahoo!? Read only the mail you want - Yahoo! Mail SpamGuard. http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Chris Doss wrote: Ha. It's only a matter of time now until some of the same people who have been glorifying the Kurds as a long-oppressed victim-race now start vilifying them as tools of imperialism. Nobody should either glorify or vilify them. Moreover, it is a mistake to lump all the Kurds together. The Workers Party in Turkey never cut deals with imperialism, while the Iranian Kurds were allied with the USSR at one point, until Stalin's typically cynical double-dealing forced them to look elsewhere. Of course, the Iraqi Kurdish leadership is utterly bankrupt. That being said, the Kurds are an oppressed nationality. Period. -- The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Chris Doss wrote: Ha. Do you know Cuba supports self-determination by Kashmiris? Ulhas --- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Hindu Monday, Jul 26, 2004 Israel pushing for Kurdish state? By Atul Aneja Yahoo! India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://yahoo.naukri.com/
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Chris, why the sarcastic Ha.? The Kurds have been oppressed for centuries. Playing a weak hand, they have been involved in all sorts of weird arrangements, frequently living by smuggling, shifting alliances unexpectedly. Why can't people sympathize with them and still be disgusted by particular actions? Chris Doss wrote: Ha. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
I'm not surprised. They probably knee-jerk support every little group that screeches national sovereignity! Even if India goes down in flames. --- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Doss wrote: Ha. Do you know Cuba supports self-determination by Kashmiris? Ulhas --- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Hindu Monday, Jul 26, 2004 Israel pushing for Kurdish state? By Atul Aneja Yahoo! India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://yahoo.naukri.com/ __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Sure they've been oppressed (as far as I know -- I'm not informed on the issue). I'm alluding to certain segments in the US according to him a group is oppressed or not according to whether or not it is pro- or anti-US or Israel. --- Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris, why the sarcastic Ha.? The Kurds have been oppressed for centuries. Playing a weak hand, they have been involved in all sorts of weird arrangements, frequently living by smuggling, shifting alliances unexpectedly. Why can't people sympathize with them and still be disgusted by particular actions? Chris Doss wrote: Ha. -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Where does this ocme from, Chris. Again, Cuba is weak -- yet amazingly has survived every imaginable sort of pressure -- so it may find it beneficial to side with Pakistan. But to make your generalization about knee-jerk support seems overblown. On Mon, Jul 26, 2004 at 10:07:10AM -0700, Chris Doss wrote: I'm not surprised. They probably knee-jerk support every little group that screeches national sovereignity! Even if India goes down in flames. --- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Doss wrote: Ha. Do you know Cuba supports self-determination by Kashmiris? Ulhas --- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Hindu Monday, Jul 26, 2004 Israel pushing for Kurdish state? By Atul Aneja Yahoo! India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://yahoo.naukri.com/ __ Do you Yahoo!? New and Improved Yahoo! Mail - Send 10MB messages! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Chris Doss wrote: I'm not surprised. They probably knee-jerk support every little group that screeches national sovereignity! Even if India goes down in flames. --- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Doss wrote: Ha. Do you know Cuba supports self-determination by Kashmiris? so, are you two saying that kashmiris are a little group that screeches sovereignity? aren't their demands of self-determination legitimate? why would india go down in flames if the people of kashmir were to gain self-determination? --ravi
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Michael Perelman wrote: Where does this ocme from, Chris. Again, Cuba is weak -- yet amazingly has survived every imaginable sort of pressure -- so it may find it beneficial to side with Pakistan. But to make your generalization about knee-jerk support seems overblown. On Mon, Jul 26, 2004 at 10:07:10AM -0700, Chris Doss wrote: I'm not surprised. They probably knee-jerk support every little group that screeches national sovereignity! Even if India goes down in flames. --- Ulhas Joglekar [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Chris Doss wrote: Ha. Do you know Cuba supports self-determination by Kashmiris? [all the top posting is making this difficult to follow, but i hope the reader can still make sense of who said what when] why pakistan? isn't it wrong to reduce the human rights violations of kashmiris (by both countries) to a tiff between the perpetrators? or to put it another way why is supporting self-determination for kashmir = siding with pakistan? --ravi
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
ravi wrote: why pakistan? isn't it wrong to reduce the human rights violations of kashmiris (by both countries) to a tiff between the perpetrators? or to put it another way why is supporting self-determination for kashmir = siding with pakistan? apologies for the flood. correction to the first sentence above: human rights violations of kashmiris should read violation of kashmiri human rights. --ravi
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
You're right, I can't read Castro's mind. --- Michael Perelman [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Where does this ocme from, Chris. Again, Cuba is weak -- yet amazingly has survived every imaginable sort of pressure -- so it may find it beneficial to side with Pakistan. But to make your generalization about knee-jerk support seems overblown. ___ Do you Yahoo!? Express yourself with Y! Messenger! Free. Download now. http://messenger.yahoo.com
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
so, are you two saying that kashmiris are a little group that screeches sovereignity? aren't their demands of self-determination legitimate? why would india go down in flames if the people of kashmir were to gain self-determination? --- You're assuming a majority of the people of Kashmir want self-determination. I don't know if they do. Since most fighters killed in Kashmir (as far as I know) are non-Kashmiris, I doubt that they do. __ Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail is new and improved - Check it out! http://promotions.yahoo.com/new_mail
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Chris Doss wrote: You're assuming a majority of the people of Kashmir want self-determination. I don't know if they do. Since most fighters killed in Kashmir (as far as I know) are non-Kashmiris, I doubt that they do. i do not know about fighters, but definitely quite a few kashmiris have been killed in kashmir by indian forces. a simple search on amnesty.org for 'kashmir' yields multiple pages and reports of abuse and murder perpetrated by the indian govt and armed forces. leaving aside the jammu, the region with a larger indian population, what i have heard and read suggests that the people of kashmir would perhaps prefer to be independent of both india and pakistan. afaik, that, not just pakistan sponsored terrorism, is also one of the reasons for the indian govt's refusal to conduct a plebiscite. so, how are we to know what the majority of the people of kashmir want? tariq ali writes: http://www.counterpunch.org/tariqkurds.html TA The real question is what to do about Kashmir, and the simple answer TA is to ask the Kashmiris. Neither Islamabad nor Delhi wants to know, TA because they already know: Kashmir would like to be independent. w.r.t the question of kashmiri militants, BBC writes: http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/south_asia/1719612.stm BBC What started as essentially an indigenous popular uprising in BBC Indian-administered Kashmir has in the last 12 years undergone BBC major changes. BBC ... BBC some of the groups that were in the forefront of the BBC armed insurgency in 1989 - particularly the pro-independence BBC Jammu-Kashmir Liberation Front (JKLF) - have receded into the BBC background. a contrary view and report can be found at: http://members.tripod.com/~INDIA_RESOURCE/kashmir.html --ravi
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Chris Doss wrote: You're assuming a majority of the people of Kashmir want self-determination. I don't know if they do. Since most fighters killed in Kashmir (as far as I know) are non-Kashmiris, I doubt that they do. The real issue is Indian occupation of foreign soil. India has resisted Kashmiri independence from early on. When the nationalist leader Abdullah agitated for independence, New Delhi removed him from office and sent him to prison for 22 years. In 1990 Indian troops gunned down 30 people involved with pro-independence demonstrations. That's when the current insurgency got started. India, like Indonesia and East Timor, or Turkey, Iraq or Iran with the Kurds, is quite adept at adopting the brutal stance of their former colonizers. What a slap in the face to Gandhi's example. With respect to the guerrillas being non-Kashmiri, this is a charge that has been raised by the Indian government all the while it occupies Kashmir itself. Frankly, it is as cynical as Paul Bremer complaining about foreign fighters in Iraq. -- The Marxism list: www.marxmail.org
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
Has any country dealt fairly with minorities? -- Michael Perelman Economics Department California State University Chico, CA 95929 Tel. 530-898-5321 E-Mail michael at ecst.csuchico.edu
Re: Israel pushing for Kurdish state?
ravi wrote: tariq ali writes: TA The real question is what to do about Kashmir, and the simple answer is to ask the Kashmiris. Let us then ask Tibetan and Uighurs what they want. Let us ask Sindhis and Baluchis in Pakistan, Tamils in Sri Lanka, Arakan people in Mynamar, muslims in South Thailand and Philippines what they want. Let Cuban freely decide what kind of rule they want. Let there be self-determination everywhere, from Bejing to Havana. Ulhas Yahoo! India Careers: Over 65,000 jobs online Go to: http://yahoo.naukri.com/
