not always clear that
this is a positive thing. Here's Greg Smith commenting on the
more-is-worse phenonmenon:
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-hackers/2012-02/msg00564.php
You can add crash recovery to the list of things where the interaction
with the OS write cache matters a lot too
heartbeat the BGW is running
at. I could even see people changing the frequencies for each
independently depending on expected system load. Tune for lower power
when you don't expect many users, that sort of thing.
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A web site doc comment from user skong today points out a small issue
around the sample INSTR function given in plpgsql-porting.html that I
can't confirm (none of those dirty Oracle instances here today), but it
sounds legit.
A look at Oracle's documentation on the INSTR function at
that
logic cleanly while being backward compatible is a bit complicated; I'm
going to think about that for a bit.
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this and related OS tuning is a better
topic for pgsql-performance, will raise this there when I've sorted that
out a bit more clearly.
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From
to move some
people off of 8.1 and 8.2 even with the carrot of 8.3 will be much
faster at everything. I fear 8.3 is going to end up like 7.4, where a
7 year long support window passes and people are still using it years later.
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adding buffers the
background writer finds reusable to the free list have been on the TODO
list since 2007; neither ideas nor code are the problem here. Proving
that a) a new policy helps on some workloads and b) it doesn't harm any
important workload, those are the hard parts here.
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to fix it in 9.3, or not?
Greg Smith was going to allow for files in configuration directories,
and that was somehow going to make it easier to manage the configuration
files and remove recovery.conf. I don't think Greg did it; I didn't
see it in the release notes I just wrote.
That was actually
it to the community once it's
moved onto being a proven concept. Since the community has a clear set
of guidelines for how and when to submit new features, we make sure the
development plans line up with them.
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On 05/01/2012 09:09 AM, Robert Haas wrote:
I think we ought to be sharing and debugging designs in
public, not internally within 2ndQuadrant - or any other company, or
any other mailing list other than this one.
OK. You go first.
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(or here)
at the beginning of the month:
http://archives.postgresql.org/pgsql-students/2012-04/msg2.php but
the next time I heard about the subject was the acceptance notice.
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On 04/27/2012 06:48 PM, Kevin Grittner wrote:
That's largely my fault.
It may not have come out that way, but I was trying more to point out
the complexity of the story rather than assign blame. I find it hard to
point at any obvious don't do that again target here.
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to that; I just know that Trac, Redmine, and GitHub
haven't felt like a good fit, having used every one of that trio for
multiple years now at some point.
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into a fixed in table.
-Generate a web page out of the database.
I think I've outlined that in a way that would make useful steps toward
adopting one of the full packages, too.
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be a useful exercise, one that's likely to benefit
any tracker adoption.
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those, compared with having to be the person saying
this isn't ready to commit only at the end.
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, the easy path is to just do it yourself and be
done. Non committing reviewers can't get that efficiency boost in the
cases it's appropriate.
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more like marketing now though.
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for this one.
Trying to quantify how much time investment the CF manager role really
involves is one of my important projects to chew on. Whoever ends up
doing that should at least have an idea what scale of problem they're
getting into.
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.
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On 04/14/2012 03:02 AM, Alex wrote:
I didn't follow this whole thread, but have we considered Redmine[1]?
It comes up every couple of years in contexts near this one, such as
http://wiki.postgresql.org/wiki/TrackerDiscussion
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I aimed for in my book wouldn't have been
possible without Kevin Grittner, Scott Marlowe, and Jim Mlodgenski as
reviewers; it didn't require anyone with commit bits though.
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just dumped a
home-made FUD bomb on them. It's not a high percentage path toward
credibility.
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usually not this bad, but in every case it's pulling resources off
of more valuable jobs.
I'd like to dump around 50 pages of new material into the docs as a
start, but I don't want to take so much time away from the code oriented
committers to chew on that much.
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enough data to establish meaningful
statistics on feedback.
I had Robert send me a dump of the data that's in the CF app the other
day. I'm hoping to do some useful data mining on it before PGCon.
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right now will start looking fat in a year or two, and
more things might need to be shifted to usec instead. Checkpoint timing
can survive having less resolution because its primary drumbeat is very
unlikely to drop below the minutes range.
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On 04/10/2012 01:33 PM, Robert Haas wrote:
I also think that people were more receptive to my reviews before I
got a commit bit.
That's not true; many people were just as annoyed at you back then.
(Robert knows I'm kidding. I hope.)
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in a positive way. All I see coming for next year is a dramatic
increase in this class of problem.
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of
usage count. Your can find both opportunity and problem in that overlap.
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late.
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in April isn't is this an important feature? anymore. It should be
is this such an important feature that it's worth delaying the release
and taking a risk on recently churning code for? Let's not kill the
messenger who delivers that reminder just because the news is painful.
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.
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, it will trash VACUUM write performance in the process. That's
one of the reasons I submitted the MB/s logging to VACUUM for 9.2, to
make it easier to measure what happens to that as write cache changes
are made.
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a
critical mass convinced.
--Documentation
Homebrew will have to become more complicated if it's going to try and
wander down this path. With complexity and backward compatibility come
increased needs for documentation.
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where things like
work_mem matter, the first step there is to pick a completely different
benchmark workload. You're not going to do it with simple pgbench calls.
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submitted patch and seeing what
happened. I threw mine out in hopes that some larger checkpoint patch
shoot-out might find it useful. Didn't happen, sorry I didn't get to
looking more at the other horses. I do have some more neat benchmarks
to share though
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this
should be asked on either the pgsql-admin or pgsql-general mailing list.
I'm not going to answer additional questions like this from you here
on this list, and I doubt anyone else will either.
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always assumed that the reason this didn't work, but the Fedoras did,
was because of a difference between 1.3 and 1.4. Maybe a forward port
of that 1.3 patch would help. I'm not sure what state RHEL6 is really
in though, I don't fully trust my SL6 system yet for this task.
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buffers out at the latest possible moment works significantly better in
some cases here. But that fact isn't new to 9.2; it's just has a
slightly higher potential to get in the way, now that the writing
happens during the sync phase.
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. And this one also works fine on the openjade 1.3 based SL6
server here, just need a different path for the library files:
$ openjade -t tex -d
/usr/share/sgml/docbook/utils-0.6.14/docbook-utils.dsl#print
/usr/share/sgml/xml.dcl test2.docbook
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it could be done perfectly
fine by the OS, without any database knowledge of what is going on.
Your results seem to validate that idea.
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the competing I/O from
backends mixed in. Note that the clients-sets graph still shows a
strong jump from 9.0 to 9.1 at high client counts; I'm pretty sure
that's the fsync compaction at work.
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catalog conversion for
in-place upgrade. That luck won't hold forever.
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On 02/23/2012 01:04 PM, Alvaro Herrera wrote:
manual vacuum is teh sux0r
I think you've just named my next conference talk submission.
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grabbing, I'd think that its individual impact would be a small slice of
the total activity. I will of course reserve arguing that point until
I've benchmarked to support it though.
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tier
of read cache, not as fast as RAM but larger and faster than real disk
seeks. In all of those potential win cases, though, I don't see why the
OS couldn't just manage the whole thing for us.
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://www.vmware.com/files/pdf/Timekeeping-In-VirtualMachines.pdf
VMware timer suggestions for various Linux versions:
http://kb.vmware.com/selfservice/microsites/search.do?language=en_UScmd=displayKCexternalId=1006427
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stating explicitly though.
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what I'd like to do with this next, regardless of that.
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finding this on
their own.
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I think. This one is pretty deep and already far off its titled
topic.
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To make
into
shared_buffers in particular are likely to see a deceptively small write
count.
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To make changes
something documenting
this possibility before 9.2 is officially released. I'm a lot less
stressed that there's really a problem here now.
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just on that test. I think that's more than pgbench testing
deserves though.
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as other bottlenecks are smashed too.
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is another 26%.
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,,9.0,9.0,9.0,9.0,9.1,9.1,9.1,9.1,9.2,9.2,9.2,9.2,9.0 to 9.1,9.1 to 9.2,9.0 to 9.2
scale,clients,tps,avg_latency,90%,max_latency,tps,avg_latency,90
On 02/14/2012 01:45 PM, Greg Smith wrote:
scale=1000, db is 94% of RAM; clients=4
Version TPS
9.0 535
9.1 491 (-8.4% relative to 9.0)
9.2 338 (-31.2% relative to 9.1)
A second pass through this data noted that the maximum number of buffers
cleaned by the background writer is =2785 in 9.0
.
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. I've certainly made the mistake you've shown when using
the patched version of the program myself, just didn't think about
catching and correcting it myself before. We can rev this to add that
feature and resubmit easily enough, will turn that around soon.
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of race, which happened (IMHO)
only because Intel's Itanium failed to prioritize backwards
compatibility highly enough.
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, to be more likely to gain community buy-in
as an automated improvement. That's a longer term project though, which
I'll hopefully be able to revisit for 9.3.
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that would want the double write buffer to move as
well. And if it's inside pg_xlog, existing base backup scripts won't
need to be changed--the correct ones already exclude pg_xlog files.
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seconds of any write-heavy test always
have an inflated speed. You're writing into the OS cache at maximum
speed, and none of those writes are making it to physical disk--except
perhaps for the WAL, which is all fast and sequential.
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of concurrent processes as another input, and the complexity of the
resulting model is high.
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to a first-time reader of this section. I stopped just short of
recommending a value for the completely cached case. I normally use
1.01 there; I know others prefer going fully to 1.0 instead. That
argument seems like it could rage on for some time.
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,
interleaved, or b) rebuild the filesystem in between each initdb.
I'm not sure that's the problem you're running into, but it's the only
one I've been hit by that matches the suspicious part of your results.
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in the process though.
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will
ultimately fit together.
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overall review work pile) then.
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that happened 10X as often as it does
now. You'll waste a moderate amount of CPU and disk resources, but a
tuning error that leans toward analyzing too frequently isn't that
expensive.
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Jeff Janes wrote:
I'm finding the backend_writes column pretty unfortunate. The only
use I know of for it is to determine if the bgwriter is lagging
behind. Yet it doesn't serve even this purpose because it lumps
together the backend writes due to lagging background writes, and the
backend
Jim Nasby wrote:
Your two comments together made me realize something... at the end of the day
people don't care about MB/s. They care about impact to other read and write
activity in the database.
What would be interesting is if we could monitor how long all *foreground* IO
requests took.
fundamentally broken,
by being too difficult to use, to most people in its current form.
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see any way to wander
down this path that doesn't end up introducing multiple new GUCs, which
is the opposite of what I'd hoped to do--which was at worst to keep the
same number, but reduce how many were likely to be touched.
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vacuum easily
is the top limiting factor on overall performance.
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that vacuum page misses introduce will not be
exactly the same as vacuum_cost_read_limit--but it will be below that
limit, which is all it claims to be.
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the pg_stat_bgwriter numbers.
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that the hook exists and what
the ground rules are for grabbing it.
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To make changes
with a way to make that work as it does
now in the new code, that's a problem. I don't think it really is, it's
just that people in that situation will need to all three upwards. It's
still a simpler thing to work out than the current situation, and this
is an unusual edge case.
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on a fast track unrelated to the normal
schedule.
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. But this existing one is already bad enough to justify
shipping something to help measure/manage it in my mind.
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diff --git a/contrib/Makefile b/contrib/Makefile
index
On 01/17/2012 11:50 AM, Peter Eisentraut wrote:
On mån, 2012-01-16 at 17:25 -0500, Greg Smith wrote:
The most reasonable answer to this is for people to publish a git repo
URL in addition to the official submission of changes to the list in
patch form.
Note that the original complaint
possible
they have that data but just didn't post just to keep the summary size
managable, since dbt-2 collects a lot of information.
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, hopefully later this week.
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features
have certainly been stacking on each other usefully so far. So many
performance improvements that we may not be able to absorb them all at
once...there are worse problems to have.
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pretty happy with how well
that's going. We don't need to add infrastructure to enable people to
push code to github and link to their branch comparison repo viewer as a
way to view the patch; that's already available to anyone who wants is.
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of code changes, but
not a lot of code complexity.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD
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To make changes to your subscription
tinkered
with shouldn't delay a date-driven alpha drop.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD
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To make changes to your
relations to sync and you have to wait 10 seconds between syncs to get
latency down, the server is going to inform you an hour between
checkpoints is all you can do here.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services, and 24x7 Support www
seen enough feedback on to acknowledge
and accept as impractical. If the flood of last minute submissions
right before the freeze submission deadline takes 6 weeks to clear now,
that still seems a whole lot better than what I remember of 8.3 and 8.4
development.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant US
upgrading all old pages before moving forward. While
this could be an interesting small test case for that sort of thing, I'd
rather not be patient #1 for that part of the long-term in-place upgrade
path right now.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL
. Works fine out of the box,
you just won't have things like all the PLs installed.
Yes, I am aware I'm going at this bottom-up.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD
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that removes a bunch of docs the previous patch added. I
have to be careful to always do something like git diff origin/master
to avoid this class of problem, until I got into that habit I did this
sort of thing regularly.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD
, then adopting the
same style of reorg to the rest until they're all converted.
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be
willing to work on doing that in a way that improves what is documented,
too. The difficulty of working with the existing tables has been the
deterrent for improving that section to me.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com Baltimore, MD
PostgreSQL Training, Services
details about issues like this is something I think
PostgreSQL needs to accept as part of the release cycle. Expecting that
pg_upgrade can transparently handle every possible change would be
setting a high bar to clear, higher than I think is expected by the
database industry at large.
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Greg
. pg_stat_statements is easy
enough to continue work on outside of core. I could see a path where
that happens in parallel with adding a better core wait event
infrastructure, just to get the initial buffer wait info into people's
hands earlier.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg...@2ndquadrant.com
. That all works against this being stable. The main
consumer of this data I use regularly is the pg_stat_bgwriter graphs
that Munin produces, and my expectation is that myself and/or Magnus
will make sure it's compatible with any changes made here for 9.2.
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Greg Smith 2ndQuadrant USg
On 01/16/2012 01:28 AM, Greg Smith wrote:
-I can't tell for sure if this is working properly when
log_checkpoints is off. This now collects checkpoint end time data in
all cases, whereas before it ignored that work if log_checkpoints was off.
...and there's at least one I missed located
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