subject:"\[HACKERS\] \[9.4 CF 1\] The Commitfest Slacker List"

On Tue, Jul 02, 2013 at 04:00:22PM -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
 make you review patches against your will.  Don't take it for more
 than what Josh meant it as.

And that was what?

Michael
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On Tue, Jul 02, 2013 at 09:42:43PM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
 Clearly I ticked off a bunch of people by publishing the list.  On the
 other hand, in the 5 days succeeding the post, more than a dozen
 additional people signed up to review patches, and we got some of the
 ready for committer patches cleared out -- something which nothing
 else I did, including dozens of private emails, general pleas to this
 mailing list, mails to the RRReviewers list, served to accomplish, in
 this or previous CFs.

So your saying the end justifies the means? I beg to disagree.

 So, as an experiment, call it a mixed result.  I would like to have some
 other way to motivate reviewers than public shame.  I'd like to have

Doesn't shame imply that people knew that were supposed to review patches in
the first place? An implication that is not true, at least for some on your
list. I think I better not bring up the word I would describe your email with,
just for the fear of mistranslating it.

Michael
-- 
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Robert Haas

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 9:21 AM, Michael Meskes mes...@postgresql.org wrote:
 On Tue, Jul 02, 2013 at 04:00:22PM -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
 make you review patches against your will.  Don't take it for more
 than what Josh meant it as.

 And that was what?

An attempt to prod a few more people into helping review.

I can see that this pissed you off, and I'm sorry about that.  But I
don't think that was his intent.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Cédric Villemain

 Clearly I ticked off a bunch of people by publishing the list.  On the
 other hand, in the 5 days succeeding the post, more than a dozen
 additional people signed up to review patches, and we got some of the
 ready for committer patches cleared out -- something which nothing
 else I did, including dozens of private emails, general pleas to this
 mailing list, mails to the RRReviewers list, served to accomplish, in
 this or previous CFs.

Others rules appeared, like the 5 days limit.
To me it outlines that some are abusing the CF app and pushing there useless 
patches (not still ready or complete, WIP, ...)

 So, as an experiment, call it a mixed result.  I would like to have some
 other way to motivate reviewers than public shame.  I'd like to have
 some positive motivations for reviewers, such as public recognition by
 our project and respect from hackers, but I'm doubting that those are
 actually going to happen, given the feedback I've gotten on this list to
 the idea.

You're looking at a short term, big effect.
And long term ? Will people listed still be interested to participate in a 
project which stamps people ?

With or without review, it's a shame if people stop proposing patches because 
they are not sure to get time to review other things *in time*.
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Christopher Browne

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Cédric Villemain ced...@2ndquadrant.comwrote:

  Clearly I ticked off a bunch of people by publishing the list.  On the
  other hand, in the 5 days succeeding the post, more than a dozen
  additional people signed up to review patches, and we got some of the
  ready for committer patches cleared out -- something which nothing
  else I did, including dozens of private emails, general pleas to this
  mailing list, mails to the RRReviewers list, served to accomplish, in
  this or previous CFs.

 Others rules appeared, like the 5 days limit.
 To me it outlines that some are abusing the CF app and pushing there
 useless
 patches (not still ready or complete, WIP, ...


Seems to me that useless overstates things, but it does seem fair to
say that some patches are not sufficiently well prepared to be efficiently
added into Postgres.

 So, as an experiment, call it a mixed result.  I would like to have some
  other way to motivate reviewers than public shame.  I'd like to have
  some positive motivations for reviewers, such as public recognition by
  our project and respect from hackers, but I'm doubting that those are
  actually going to happen, given the feedback I've gotten on this list to
  the idea.

 You're looking at a short term, big effect.
 And long term ? Will people listed still be interested to participate in a
 project which stamps people ?

 With or without review, it's a shame if people stop proposing patches
 because
 they are not sure to get time to review other things *in time*.


Well, if the project is hampered by not being able to get *all* the
changes that people imagine that they want to put in, then we have a
real problem of needing a sort of triage to determine which changes
will be accepted, and which will not.

Perhaps we need an extra status in the CommitFest application, namely
one that characterizes:
   Insufficiently Important To Warrant Review

That's too long a term.  Perhaps Not Review-worthy expresses it better?
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

Tatsuo,

 Because I did not register the patch into CF page myself. I should
 have not posted it until I find any patch which I can take care
 of. Sorry for this.

My apologies!  I did post the list of patches I'd added to the CF in my
patch sweep to -hackers, but I forgot to match it against the list of
contributors who weren't reviewing.   Sorry about that.

In general, I prefer to do the patch sweep 5 days out from the start of
the CF so that I have time to email people about whether or not their
patches should have been included.   However, this time an emergency
cropped up just before the CF started and I found myself doing the patch
sweep the day before the CF, which didn't leave time for an email response.

This is one of those areas where better tooling could help a lot.

-- 
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PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

Michael Meskes wrote:
 So, as an experiment, call it a mixed result.  I would like to have some
 other way to motivate reviewers than public shame.  I'd like to have
 
 Doesn't shame imply that people knew that were supposed to review patches in
 the first place? An implication that is not true, at least for some on your
 list. I think I better not bring up the word I would describe your email with,
 just for the fear of mistranslating it.

If you didn't feel obligated, you wouldn't be pissed at me.  You'd just
blow it off (like Bruce did).  I think you're angry with me because you
feel guilty.

My *personal* viewpoint is that all committers should feel obligated to
review and commit patches from other contributors.  That's why they're
committers in the first place.  Certainly if a committer looks at the CF
application and notices that 80% of the reviewing and committing is
being done by three people, none of whom have any more spare time than
they do, they should feel obligated to help those people out.

We have a problem with patch reviewing and committing in this project;
it's not being done in a timely fashion in general (every CF last year
ended late), and the people who are doing most of the work feel
overworked and frustrated.  This problem is getting worse every year,
and will kill the project if it continues on its current trajectory.

There are *only* three ways out of this hole, all three of which I'm
trying to address:

1) more automation and better tools in order to reduce the total time
required of each reviewer/committer;

2) a program of recruitment of new reviewers, including giving respect
and recognition to people for their reviewing efforts

3) getting most of our existing contributors to shoulder their fair
share of patch review.

(3) is what I'm addressing on this thread.  The reason I volunteered to
be CFM this time was directly because of our discussion in Ottawa of how
the review process wasn't working.  I decided to find out *why* it
wasn't working, and the first obvious thing I ran across was that most
of our current and our long-term contributors weren't doing any patch
review.  For CF1, the number of people submitting patches outnumbered
those who had volunteered for review 2 to 1.  That *is* the review
problem in a nutshell; everybody wants someone else to do the work.

I don't think it's too much to ask people who are listed on the project
developers page as major contributors to review one patch per CommitFest
most of the time.  If they did just *one* it would substantially
decrease the workload on the people who are currently doing the vast
majority of review and commit.

On 07/03/2013 11:24 AM, Cédric Villemain wrote:
 You're looking at a short term, big effect.
 And long term ? Will people listed still be interested to participate
in a
 project which stamps people ?

 With or without review, it's a shame if people stop proposing patches
because
 they are not sure to get time to review other things *in time*.

Yes, I am, because the CF is only supposed to be 30 days long, and I
plan to finish it on time.  That's my job as CFM.

Several people on this thread have raised the fear of discouraging patch
submitters, but the consistent evidence is that we have more submissions
than we can currently handle.  I'd rather have half as many submissions,
but do a really good job of reviewing, improving, and integrating those
than the current mess.

Furthermore, there are quite a number of people who are submitting
patches on paid company time.  For those people, submit one, review
one has to be an ironclad rule so that they can tell their bosses that
they *have* to spend time on patch review.  Otherwise, the review
doesn't happen.

-- 
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PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Cédric Villemain

Le mercredi 3 juillet 2013 21:03:42, Christopher Browne a écrit :
 On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 2:24 PM, Cédric Villemain 
ced...@2ndquadrant.comwrote:
   Clearly I ticked off a bunch of people by publishing the list.  On
   the other hand, in the 5 days succeeding the post, more than a dozen
   additional people signed up to review patches, and we got some of the
   ready for committer patches cleared out -- something which nothing
   else I did, including dozens of private emails, general pleas to this
   mailing list, mails to the RRReviewers list, served to accomplish, in
   this or previous CFs.
  
  Others rules appeared, like the 5 days limit.
  To me it outlines that some are abusing the CF app and pushing there
  useless
  patches (not still ready or complete, WIP, ...
 
 Seems to me that useless overstates things, but it does seem fair to
 say that some patches are not sufficiently well prepared to be efficiently
 added into Postgres.

Oops! You just made me realized my choice of words was not good at all!
I didn't considered under this angle, I just meant that some patches were 
added to CF to help patches authors, it was a good idea, but this had some 
unexpected corner case. Sorry for the confusion.
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Bruce Momjian

On Wed, Jul  3, 2013 at 12:34:50PM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
 Michael Meskes wrote:
  So, as an experiment, call it a mixed result.  I would like to have some
  other way to motivate reviewers than public shame.  I'd like to have
  
  Doesn't shame imply that people knew that were supposed to review patches in
  the first place? An implication that is not true, at least for some on your
  list. I think I better not bring up the word I would describe your email 
  with,
  just for the fear of mistranslating it.
 
 If you didn't feel obligated, you wouldn't be pissed at me.  You'd just
 blow it off (like Bruce did).  I think you're angry with me because you
 feel guilty.

People are supposed to feel guilty because they are not volunteering
enough time, or enough time in the places the community wants?  How does
that make sense?  Doesn't that contradict the term volunteer?

Also, don't assume everyone has the thick skin I do.

I do understand Josh's frustration that something different had to be
done.

-- 
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  EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

  + It's impossible for everything to be true. +


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On Wed, Jul 03, 2013 at 09:47:13AM -0400, Robert Haas wrote:
 An attempt to prod a few more people into helping review.
 
 I can see that this pissed you off, and I'm sorry about that.  But I
 don't think that was his intent.

I hoped for this kind of answer from him but ...

Michael
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On Wed, Jul 03, 2013 at 04:03:08PM -0400, Bruce Momjian wrote:
 I do understand Josh's frustration that something different had to be
 done.

As a matter of fact I do, too. I just think the style of blaming people in
public like this is not ideal.

As I said I didn't even notice this email in the first hand until I was
approached from other people and called a slacker in communication not related
to the CF at all.

Michael
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On Wed, Jul 03, 2013 at 12:34:50PM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
 If you didn't feel obligated, you wouldn't be pissed at me.  You'd just
 blow it off (like Bruce did).  I think you're angry with me because you
 feel guilty.

That is outrageous bullshit!

 My *personal* viewpoint is that all committers should feel obligated to

And my *personal* viewpoint is that nobody should be offended like this. But
apparently I don't get my wish either.

 review and commit patches from other contributors.  That's why they're
 committers in the first place.  Certainly if a committer looks at the CF
 application and notices that 80% of the reviewing and committing is
 being done by three people, none of whom have any more spare time than
 they do, they should feel obligated to help those people out.

How many patches did you review? You don't have to be a committer to do that.

 We have a problem with patch reviewing and committing in this project;
 it's not being done in a timely fashion in general (every CF last year
 ended late), and the people who are doing most of the work feel
 overworked and frustrated.  This problem is getting worse every year,
 and will kill the project if it continues on its current trajectory.

As if publicly blaming people for not behaving the way you would like them to
will do the project a lot of good.

Let me stress again that you didn't even try talking to the people in question
in private before, nor did you bother putting your *suggestion* up for
discussion before flaming people.

Also let me stress again that I did *not* put a patch into the CF.

 3) getting most of our existing contributors to shoulder their fair
 share of patch review.
 
 (3) is what I'm addressing on this thread.  The reason I volunteered to
 be CFM this time was directly because of our discussion in Ottawa of how
 the review process wasn't working.  I decided to find out *why* it
 wasn't working, and the first obvious thing I ran across was that most
 of our current and our long-term contributors weren't doing any patch
 review.  For CF1, the number of people submitting patches outnumbered
 those who had volunteered for review 2 to 1.  That *is* the review
 problem in a nutshell; everybody wants someone else to do the work.

Great, I wasn't part of any discussion as I didn't make it to Ottawa this time.
Neither am I part of the problem with 0 patches, but still I've got to shoulder
the blame in a less than friendly way.

 I don't think it's too much to ask people who are listed on the project
 developers page as major contributors to review one patch per CommitFest
 most of the time.  If they did just *one* it would substantially
 decrease the workload on the people who are currently doing the vast
 majority of review and commit.

You didn't ask! You blamed and offended people! 

I won't go into details here because frankly why I have no time for reviewing a
patch is none of your business. 

Michael

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On 07/03/2013 02:03 PM, Michael Meskes wrote:
 I won't go into details here because frankly why I have no time for reviewing 
 a
 patch is none of your business. 

Then just send an email saying Sorry, I don't have any time for patch
review this time.  Maybe next time.   It's pretty simple.

I'm not going to apologize for expecting *committers* to participate in
patch review and commit.

 As I said I didn't even notice this email in the first hand until I was
 approached from other people and called a slacker in communication not
related
 to the CF at all.

Ah, now, *that* wasn't my intent, sorry about that.  It's rather a
surprise to me that anyone off of the -hackers list would care.

Possibly slacker was a poor choice of word given translations; in
colloquial American English it's a casual term, even affectionate under
some conditions.  I'll make sure to use different words if I ever end up
doing a list again.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Andres Freund

On 2013-07-03 14:16:09 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
 On 07/03/2013 02:03 PM, Michael Meskes wrote:
  I won't go into details here because frankly why I have no time for 
  reviewing a
  patch is none of your business. 
 
 Then just send an email saying Sorry, I don't have any time for patch
 review this time.  Maybe next time.   It's pretty simple.
 
 I'm not going to apologize for expecting *committers* to participate in
 patch review and commit.

I find it absurd to expect anybody - including committers and regular
contributors - to be involved in the project all the time. It's one
thing to call somebody out who regularly commits his/her own stuff but
doesn't do CF work, something entirely different to do it to people who
didn't have time (or even chose to invest it differently!) to contribute
lately. The project does *NOT* own them.

I'd be at least as pissed as Michael seems to be if I were in his shoes.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Robert Haas

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 5:16 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:
 I'm not going to apologize for expecting *committers* to participate in
 patch review and commit.

You are way out of line.  You have no right to expect ANYONE to
participate in patch review and commit.  Michael is doing us a favor
by maintaining ECPG even though he's not heavily involved in the
project any more and has other things to do with his time.  I think
you're about two emails away from him having him resign in disgust,
and if he does, then the burden of reviewing and committing ECPG
patches is going to fall on someone else.  Do you expect Tom or Noah
or Simon or myself to pick up the slack after you've driven him away?
I suppose you probably do, and that is absolutely wrong and really
pretty offensive.

I think it's completely appropriate for you to remind people who have
submitted patches for review but not reviewed any that they need to do
that part of it, too.  Fair is fair.  But you cannot enforce mandatory
volunteerism on people just because they are committers.  Maybe you
think the world would be a better place if committers who didn't pull
their weight had their commit bits pulled, or that it doesn't matter
if you drive them to resign in disgust.  I respectfully disagree.
Yeah, committers who are completely idle and never do anything
probably shouldn't have a commit bit.  But someone like Michael who
reliably maintains ECPG is an asset to the project whether he chooses
to do anything else or not.  I'm flabbergasted that you can't see
that.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On 07/03/2013 03:08 PM, Robert Haas wrote:
 You are way out of line.  You have no right to expect ANYONE to
 participate in patch review and commit.  Michael is doing us a favor
 by maintaining ECPG even though he's not heavily involved in the
 project any more and has other things to do with his time.

That's a good point.  I hadn't considered (or realized the extent of)
the occasional and specific nature of Michael's involvement with the
project these days.  My apologies, then, Michael.

Is there anyone else on the committer list with similar circumstances?

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Robert Haas

On Wed, Jul 3, 2013 at 6:34 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:
 On 07/03/2013 03:08 PM, Robert Haas wrote:
 You are way out of line.  You have no right to expect ANYONE to
 participate in patch review and commit.  Michael is doing us a favor
 by maintaining ECPG even though he's not heavily involved in the
 project any more and has other things to do with his time.

 That's a good point.  I hadn't considered (or realized the extent of)
 the occasional and specific nature of Michael's involvement with the
 project these days.  My apologies, then, Michael.

 Is there anyone else on the committer list with similar circumstances?

I would say that everyone on the committer list and every other list
has the right to choose the level of their involvement.  We can't
really complain about what people choose to do or not do except to the
extent that they impose burdens on other people.  For example, we
typically expect that if a committer commits a patch that breaks
something, that committer will promptly fix it.  People who are not
willing to do that should not commit (or be allowed to commit).  And
people who submit patches for review should also review patches: they
are asking other people to do work, so they should also contribute
work.

To the best of my knowledge, no one has ever been made a committer on
the condition that they spend a certain minimum number of hours per
week, month, or CommitFest on patch review, and I don't think we have
any right to expect that they do that.  Rather, we should be thanking
the people who do choose to do more than their share of patch review,
whether they are committers or not.  And the only people who need to
be called out are people who impose work on others without doing any
themselves.  People who contribute a small amount but ask nothing for
it are a good thing, not a bad thing, again, regardless of whether
they have a commit bit.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Bruce Momjian

On Wed, Jul  3, 2013 at 03:34:06PM -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
 On 07/03/2013 03:08 PM, Robert Haas wrote:
  You are way out of line.  You have no right to expect ANYONE to
  participate in patch review and commit.  Michael is doing us a favor
  by maintaining ECPG even though he's not heavily involved in the
  project any more and has other things to do with his time.
 
 That's a good point.  I hadn't considered (or realized the extent of)
 the occasional and specific nature of Michael's involvement with the
 project these days.  My apologies, then, Michael.
 
 Is there anyone else on the committer list with similar circumstances?

I spend my available time going through old emails and finding issues
that never made it to a commit-fest, but need doing.  I am currently in
November, 2012.

I am volunteering that information, and do not in any way feel I have to
justify my time commitment to anyone, except perhaps my employer.   If
you want, you can remove my commit bit and I will just post all my
patches for others to commit --- hard to see how that is an improvement.
I will also remind you that before there were commit-fests, Tom and I
pretty much did all that work of committing non-committer's patches.

But my big feedback is, our community has no right to be asking about
committer circumstances.  This is a voluntteer project, and people work
as they want.  The extrapolation of Josh's approach is that committers
have to do work that the community wants to maintain their commit
rights, but their commit rights are helping the community, so why would
people care if you take them away --- you only hurt the community
further by doing so.

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

  + It's impossible for everything to be true. +


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Wolfe Whalen

First of all, I'd like to give a big Thank You to all the hackers and
slackers that make Postgres great.  You've really done an amazing job.

I'll step up and take a healthy portion of the blame here.  I enjoy the
awesome features  fixes that all of you put out year after year, but I
have yet to contribute anything.  For what it's worth, I'm sorry.  If
more guys like me could find some time to step up our game a little, we
wouldn't even be having this conversation.  But we're still left with
the fact that there is too much code and not enough review.

Honestly, there is a lot of work for committers to do even when all the
patches have been through sufficient code review.  Slogging through 4
months of CF patches without adequate review is enough to make anybody
throw up their hands and quit.

The best thing we can do to improve Postgres right now and over the long
term is to make sure that doesn't happen.  Anybody who is on this list
is a valued Postgres contributor, and that's why Josh has been reaching
out.  Maybe the term slacker offended some people, but he's basically
saying that code review is an essential contribution, perhaps more
essential than most new patches themselves at this point.  He's asking
for help from those of you with the skill, experience, and established
desire to contribute to the growth of Postgres.

Coordinating volunteers for anything is a frustrating process.  I'm sure
some people on the list shouldn't be on the list, and some people who
should be on the list aren't.  Maybe the list shouldn't have been sent
in the first place.  But it's a call for help born out of frustration,
and one that we could remedy by stepping up our communication a bit.  5
days is too short?  How abut 7 or 10?  No time to review a patch this
CF?  Okay, good to know.

He's trying to tell us how we can best contribute.  If I manage to find
the time to contribute something over the next couple of weeks, it would
border on the absurd if my contribution was some sort of patch
submission.  Pretty much nothing I could write would be a more valuable
contribution than code review at this point.

So I'll drop Josh an email and let him know how much time I might be
able to contribute and when, and I'd suggest other people do the same. 
Even if it's just a quick Hey, I'm pretty busy the next couple weeks so
I'm not going to be able to review anything this CF.  Being armed with
a little more information about the potential volunteer pool would
probably make his job as CFM much easier.

Thanks again to all of you for all your hard work.

Best regards,

Wolfe Whalen

-- 
  Wolfe Whalen
  wo...@quios.net


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-03 Thread Greg Sabino Mullane


-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: RIPEMD160


Josh Berkus replied:
 I won't go into details here because frankly why I have no time 
 for reviewing a patch is none of your business. 

 Then just send an email saying Sorry, I don't have any time for patch
 review this time.  Maybe next time.   It's pretty simple.

Hope about you not publically shame people in a volunteer project? 
That's pretty simple.

 I'm not going to apologize for expecting *committers* to participate in
 patch review and commit.

I must have missed the page where patch review is defined as part of 
a committer's job.

 Possibly slacker was a poor choice of word given translations; in
 colloquial American English it's a casual term, even affectionate under
 some conditions.  I'll make sure to use different words if I ever end up
 doing a list again.

Please, don't ever do a list again. And yes, slacker was an extremely 
poor choice of word. This American English speaker certainly has a 
hard time viewing it as affectionate. I think the whole thread would 
have been better received with a subject line of Commitfest needs help.

- -- 
Greg Sabino Mullane g...@turnstep.com
PGP Key: 0x14964AC8 201307032150
http://biglumber.com/x/web?pk=2529DF6AB8F79407E94445B4BC9B906714964AC8
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-

iEYEAREDAAYFAlHU1QQACgkQvJuQZxSWSsgoMgCfcUm/MnYzsUaqVWq3DvTh2kAi
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-02 Thread Michael Meskes

Sorry for joining the thread this late, but I didn't really expect to see
myself listed as a slacker on a public list.

 Additionally, the following committers are not listed as reviewers on
 any patch.  Note that I have no way to search which ones might be
 *committers* on a patch, so these folks are not necessarily slackers

This means I'm a slacker because I'm not reviewing or committing a patch,
right? Do we have a written rule somewhere? Or some other communication about
this? I would have liked to know this requirement before getting singled out in
public. 

Also I'd like to know who made the decision to require a patch review from each
committer as I certainly missed it. Was the process public? Where can I find
more about it? In general I find it difficult to digest that other people make
decisions about my spare time without me having a word in the discussion.

Michael
-- 
Michael Meskes
Michael at Fam-Meskes dot De, Michael at Meskes dot (De|Com|Net|Org)
Michael at BorussiaFan dot De, Meskes at (Debian|Postgresql) dot Org
Jabber: michael.meskes at gmail dot com
VfL Borussia! Força Barça! Go SF 49ers! Use Debian GNU/Linux, PostgreSQL


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-02 Thread Tatsuo Ishii

Folks,

For 9.2, we adopted it as policy that anyone submitting a patch to a
commitfest is expected to review at least one patch submitted by someone
else. And that failure to do so would affect the attention your patches
received in the future. For that reason, I'm publishing the list below
of people who submitted patches and have not yet claimed any patch in
the commitfest to review.

For those of you who are contributing patches for your company, please
let your boss know that reviewing is part of contributing, and that if
you don't do the one you may not be able to do the other.

The two lists below, idle submitters and committers, constitutes 26
people. This *outnumbers* the list of contributors who are busy
reviewing patches -- some of them four or more patches. If each of
these people took just *one* patch to review, it would almost entirely
clear the list of patches which do not have a reviewer. If these folks
continue not to do reviews, this commitfest will drag on for at least 2
weeks past its closure date.

Andrew Geirth
Nick White
Peter Eisentrout
Alexander Korotkov
Etsuro Fujita
Hari Babu
Jameison Martin
Jon Nelson
Oleg Bartunov
Chris Farmiloe
Samrat Revagade
Alexander Lakhin
Mark Kirkwood
Liming Hu
Maciej Gajewski
Josh Kuperschmidt
Mark Wong
Gurjeet Singh
Robins Tharakan
Tatsuo Ishii
Karl O Pinc

It took me for while before realizing that I am on the list because I
posted this:

http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/20130610.091605.250603479334631505.t-is...@sraoss.co.jp

Because I did not register the patch into CF page myself. I should
have not posted it until I find any patch which I can take care
of. Sorry for this.
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-02 Thread Bruce Momjian

On Tue, Jul  2, 2013 at 10:52:26AM +0200, Michael Meskes wrote:
 Sorry for joining the thread this late, but I didn't really expect to see
 myself listed as a slacker on a public list.
 
  Additionally, the following committers are not listed as reviewers on
  any patch.  Note that I have no way to search which ones might be
  *committers* on a patch, so these folks are not necessarily slackers
 
 This means I'm a slacker because I'm not reviewing or committing a patch,
 right? Do we have a written rule somewhere? Or some other communication about
 this? I would have liked to know this requirement before getting singled out 
 in
 public. 
 
 Also I'd like to know who made the decision to require a patch review from 
 each
 committer as I certainly missed it. Was the process public? Where can I find
 more about it? In general I find it difficult to digest that other people make
 decisions about my spare time without me having a word in the discussion.

I understand.  You could wear slacker as a badge of honor:  ;-)

http://momjian.us/main/img/main/slacker.jpg

-- 
  Bruce Momjian  br...@momjian.ushttp://momjian.us
  EnterpriseDB http://enterprisedb.com

  + It's impossible for everything to be true. +


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-02 Thread Hannu Krosing

On 07/02/2013 11:30 AM, Tatsuo Ishii wrote:
Folks,

For those of you who are contributing patches for your company, please
let your boss know that reviewing is part of contributing, and that if
you don't do the one you may not be able to do the other.

http://www.postgresql.org/message-id/20130610.091605.250603479334631505.t-is...@sraoss.co.jp

Because I did not register the patch into CF page myself. I should
have not posted it until I find any patch which I can take care
of.
Hi Tatsuo-san

I guess whoever registered it with CF should also take your place on the
slackers list ;)

Regards
Hannu Krosing

PS. I am also currently witholding a patch from CF for the same reason

Sorry for this.
--
Tatsuo Ishii
SRA OSS, Inc. Japan
English: http://www.sraoss.co.jp/index_en.php
Japanese: http://www.sraoss.co.jp

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-02 Thread Robert Haas

On Tue, Jul 2, 2013 at 3:00 PM, Hannu Krosing ha...@krosing.net wrote:
 I guess whoever registered it with CF should also take your place on the
 slackers list ;)

Yeah, I recommend that, in the future, CF managers do NOT go and add
patches to the CF.  Pinging newbies to see if they just forgot is
sensible, but if an experienced hacker hasn't put something in the CF,
there's probably a reason.

Also, I recommend that nobody get too worked up about being on the
slacker list.  Life is short, PostgreSQL is awesome, and nobody can
make you review patches against your will.  Don't take it for more
than what Josh meant it as.

-- 
Robert Haas
EnterpriseDB: http://www.enterprisedb.com
The Enterprise PostgreSQL Company


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-02 Thread Michael Paquier

On 2013/07/02, at 23:44, Bruce Momjian br...@momjian.us wrote:

 I understand.  You could wear slacker as a badge of honor:  ;-)
   http://momjian.us/main/img/main/slacker.jpg
This picture could make a nice T-shirt btw.
 
--
Michael



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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-07-02 Thread Josh Berkus

Hackers,

Clearly I ticked off a bunch of people by publishing the list.  On the
other hand, in the 5 days succeeding the post, more than a dozen
additional people signed up to review patches, and we got some of the
ready for committer patches cleared out -- something which nothing
else I did, including dozens of private emails, general pleas to this
mailing list, mails to the RRReviewers list, served to accomplish, in
this or previous CFs.

So, as an experiment, call it a mixed result.  I would like to have some
other way to motivate reviewers than public shame.  I'd like to have
some positive motivations for reviewers, such as public recognition by
our project and respect from hackers, but I'm doubting that those are
actually going to happen, given the feedback I've gotten on this list to
the idea.

I do think I succeeded in calling attention to the fact that this
project has slid into a rut of letting a handful of people do 90% of the
reviewing, resulting in CFs which last forever and some very frustrated
major contributors.  That part shouldn't be necessary again for some
time, hopefully.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-26 Thread Robins

Hi,

Apologies for being unable to respond promptly. I've been traveling
(without much access) and this was the fastest I could settle down. I was
free for months and had to travel smack in the middle of the commitfest.

Incidentally I had reviewed one patch after your direct email, but as
someone earlier mentioned, actually pasting my name as 'reviewer' seemed
awkward and so didn't
then
(but currently its set to David Fetter for some reason).

I guess the point Tom mentioned earlier makes good sense and I agree with
the
spirit of the
process
.
In my part would try to review more patches and mark them so on the
commitfest page
 soon
.
--
Robins Tharakan


On 23 June 2013 23:41, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:

 Folks,

 For 9.2, we adopted it as policy that anyone submitting a patch to a
 commitfest is expected to review at least one patch submitted by someone
 else.  And that failure to do so would affect the attention your patches
 received in the future.  For that reason, I'm publishing the list below
 of people who submitted patches and have not yet claimed any patch in
 the commitfest to review.

 For those of you who are contributing patches for your company, please
 let your boss know that reviewing is part of contributing, and that if
 you don't do the one you may not be able to do the other.

 The two lists below, idle submitters and committers, constitutes 26
 people.  This *outnumbers* the list of contributors who are busy
 reviewing patches -- some of them four or more patches.  If each of
 these people took just *one* patch to review, it would almost entirely
 clear the list of patches which do not have a reviewer.  If these folks
 continue not to do reviews, this commitfest will drag on for at least 2
 weeks past its closure date.

 Andrew Geirth
 Nick White
 Peter Eisentrout
 Alexander Korotkov
 Etsuro Fujita
 Hari Babu
 Jameison Martin
 Jon Nelson
 Oleg Bartunov
 Chris Farmiloe
 Samrat Revagade
 Alexander Lakhin
 Mark Kirkwood
 Liming Hu
 Maciej Gajewski
 Josh Kuperschmidt
 Mark Wong
 Gurjeet Singh
 Robins Tharakan
 Tatsuo Ishii
 Karl O Pinc

 Additionally, the following committers are not listed as reviewers on
 any patch.  Note that I have no way to search which ones might be
 *committers* on a patch, so these folks are not necessarily slackers
 (although with Bruce, we know for sure):

 Bruce Momjian (momjian)
 Michael Meskes (meskes)
 Teodor Sigaev (teodor)
 Andrew Dunstan (adunstan)
 Magnus Hagander (mha)
 Itagaki Takahiro (itagaki)

 --
 Josh Berkus
 PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
 http://pgexperts.com


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-25 Thread Mark Kirkwood


On 25/06/13 15:56, Tom Lane wrote:

Mark Kirkwood mark.kirkw...@catalyst.net.nz writes:

One of the reasons for fewer reviewers than submitters, is that it is a
fundamentally more difficult job. I've submitted a few patches in a few
different areas over the years - however if I grab a patch on the queue
that is not in exactly one of the areas I know about, I'll struggle to
do a good quality review.



Now some might say any review is better than no review... I don't
think so - one of my patches a while was reviewed by someone who didn't
really know the context that well and made the whole process grind to a
standstill until a more experienced reviewer took over. I'm quite wary
of doing the same myself - anti-help is not the answer!


FWIW, a large part of the reason for the commitfest structure is that
by reviewing patches, people can educate themselves about parts of the
PG code that they don't know already, and thus become better qualified
to do more stuff later.  So I've got no problem with less-experienced
people doing reviews.

At the same time, it *is* fair to expect someone to phrase their review
as I don't understand this, could you explain and/or improve the
comments rather than saying something more negative, if they aren't
clear about what's going on.  Without some specific references it's hard
to be sure if the reviewer you mention was being unreasonable.

Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that this is a community effort,
and each of us can stand to improve our knowledge of what is fundamentally
a complex system.  Learn something, teach something, it's all good.



Yes - the reason I mentioned this was not to dig into history and bash a 
reviewer (who was not at all unreasonable in my recollection)... but to 
highlight that approaching a review is perhaps a little more complex and 
demanding that was being made out, hence the shortage of volunteers.


However I do completely agree, that encouraging reviewers to proceed 
with the approach you've outlined above seems like the way. And yes - 
it is going to be a good way to get to know the code better.


Regards

Mark



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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-25 Thread David Rowley

On Tue, Jun 25, 2013 at 3:56 PM, Tom Lane t...@sss.pgh.pa.us wrote:


 FWIW, a large part of the reason for the commitfest structure is that
 by reviewing patches, people can educate themselves about parts of the
 PG code that they don't know already, and thus become better qualified
 to do more stuff later.  So I've got no problem with less-experienced
 people doing reviews.

 At the same time, it *is* fair to expect someone to phrase their review
 as I don't understand this, could you explain and/or improve the
 comments rather than saying something more negative, if they aren't
 clear about what's going on.  Without some specific references it's hard
 to be sure if the reviewer you mention was being unreasonable.

 Anyway, the point I'm trying to make is that this is a community effort,
 and each of us can stand to improve our knowledge of what is fundamentally
 a complex system.  Learn something, teach something, it's all good.

 regards, tom lane



I just wanted to give this the +1 but also want to add. As a novice back in
the 8.4 cycle I wrote a small patch implement boyer-moore-horspool text
searches. I didn't have too much experience around the PostgreSQL source
code, so when it came to my review of another patch (which I think was even
the rule back in 8.4 IIRC) I was quite clear on what I could and could not
review. The initial windowing function patch was in the queue at the time,
so I picked that one and reviewed it along with Heikki. As a novice I did
manage to help maintain a bit of concurrency with the progress of the patch
and the patch went through quite a few revisions from my review even before
Heikki got a good look at it.  I think the most important thing is
maintaining that concurrency during the commitfest, if the author of the
patch is sitting idle waiting for a review the whole time then that leaves
so much less time to get the patch into shape before the commiter comes
along. Even if a novice reviewer can only help a tiny bit, it might still
make the difference between that patch making it to a suitable state in
time or it getting bounced to the next commitfest or even the next release.

So for a person who is a little scared to put their name in the reviewer
section of a patch, I'd recommend being quite open and honest with what you
can and can't review. For me back in 8.4 with the windowing function patch,
I managed point out a few places were the plans being created where not
quite optimal and the author of the patch quickly put fixes in and sent
updated patches, there was also a few things around the SQL spec that I
found after grabbing a copy of the spec and reading part of it. It may have
been a small part of the overall review and work to get the patch commited
but as Tom stated, I did learn quite a bit from that and I even managed to
sent back a delta patch which  helped to get the patch more SQL spec
compliant.

I'm not sure if adding any a review breakdown list to the commitfest
application would be of any use to allow breaking down of what the reviewer
is actually reviewing. Perhaps people would be quicker to sign up to review
the sections of patches around their area of expertise rather than putting
their name against the whole thing, likely a commiter would have a better
idea if such a thing was worth the extra overhead.

Regards

David Rowley

Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-25 Thread Brendan Jurd

On 25 June 2013 04:13, Joshua D. Drake j...@commandprompt.com wrote:
 On 06/24/2013 10:59 AM, Andres Freund wrote:
 On 2013-06-24 10:50:42 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
 This project is enormously stingy with giving credit to people.  It's
 not like it costs us money, you know.
 I am all for introducing a Contributed by reviewing: ... section in
 the release notes.

 It should be listed with the specific feature.

I don't have a strong opinion about whether the reviewers ought to be
listed all together or with each feature, but I do feel very strongly
that they should be given some kind of credit.

Reviewing is often not all that much fun (compared with authoring) and
as Josh points out, giving proper credit has a bang for buck
incentive value that is hard to argue with.

Cheers,
BJ


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Andrew Dunstan



On 06/24/2013 12:41 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:

Folks,

For 9.2, we adopted it as policy that anyone submitting a patch to a
commitfest is expected to review at least one patch submitted by someone
else.  And that failure to do so would affect the attention your patches
received in the future.  For that reason, I'm publishing the list below
of people who submitted patches and have not yet claimed any patch in
the commitfest to review.

For those of you who are contributing patches for your company, please
let your boss know that reviewing is part of contributing, and that if
you don't do the one you may not be able to do the other.

The two lists below, idle submitters and committers, constitutes 26
people.  This *outnumbers* the list of contributors who are busy
reviewing patches -- some of them four or more patches.  If each of
these people took just *one* patch to review, it would almost entirely
clear the list of patches which do not have a reviewer.  If these folks
continue not to do reviews, this commitfest will drag on for at least 2
weeks past its closure date.

Andrew Geirth
Nick White
Peter Eisentrout
Alexander Korotkov
Etsuro Fujita
Hari Babu
Jameison Martin
Jon Nelson
Oleg Bartunov
Chris Farmiloe
Samrat Revagade
Alexander Lakhin
Mark Kirkwood
Liming Hu
Maciej Gajewski
Josh Kuperschmidt
Mark Wong
Gurjeet Singh
Robins Tharakan
Tatsuo Ishii
Karl O Pinc

Additionally, the following committers are not listed as reviewers on
any patch.  Note that I have no way to search which ones might be
*committers* on a patch, so these folks are not necessarily slackers
(although with Bruce, we know for sure):

Bruce Momjian (momjian)
Michael Meskes (meskes)
Teodor Sigaev (teodor)
Andrew Dunstan (adunstan)
Magnus Hagander (mha)
Itagaki Takahiro (itagaki)



I think we maybe need to be a bit more careful about a name and shame 
policy, or it will be ignored. I actually reviewed Peter's emacs config 
patch just yesterday, although I didn't note that on the Commitfest app. 
(Incidentally, based on Tom's later comments I think we should probably 
mark that one as rejected.)


Anyway, I have claimed the VPATH patches for review, and will look at 
them today.


cheers

andrew



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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Dimitri Fontaine

Andrew Dunstan and...@dunslane.net writes:
 I think we maybe need to be a bit more careful about a name and shame
 policy, or it will be ignored.

I very much don't like that idea of publishing a list of names either.
Editing the reviewer field and sending personal notices is fine by me,
but name and shame is walking the line…

Regards,
-- 
Dimitri Fontaine
http://2ndQuadrant.fr PostgreSQL : Expertise, Formation et Support


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Maciej Gajewski

Maybe this policy should be mentioned on the Wiki, so newbies like myself
(who wouldn't even dare reviewing patches submitted be seasoned hackers)
are not surprised by seeing own name on a shame wall?

M

Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Andreas Karlsson


On 06/24/2013 05:40 PM, Maciej Gajewski wrote:

Maybe this policy should be mentioned on the Wiki, so newbies like
myself (who wouldn't even dare reviewing patches submitted be seasoned
hackers) are not surprised by seeing own name on a shame wall?


I personally would prefer if the email was sent to those who should be 
reminded instead to the list. My personal experience is that personal 
reminders are more effective than public naming and shaming.


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List



On 06/24/2013 08:40 AM, Maciej Gajewski wrote:

Maybe this policy should be mentioned on the Wiki, so newbies like
myself (who wouldn't even dare reviewing patches submitted be seasoned
hackers) are not surprised by seeing own name on a shame wall?


It is mentioned. Of course now I can't find it but it is there.

However, I believe you are taking the wrong perspective on this. This is 
not a shame wall. It is a transparent reminder of the policy and those 
who have not assisted in reviewing a patch but have submitted a patch 
themselves.


In short, leave the ego at the door.

Sincerely,

JD



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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Dimitri Fontaine

Joshua D. Drake j...@commandprompt.com writes:
 In short, leave the ego at the door.

That's not the problem. Let's welcome those who are able to contribute
their time and skills without making it harder for them. Motivation here
shoulnd't be how to avoid getting enlisted on the shame wall.

My opinion is that if we play the game that way, we will only achieve to
push contributors out of the community and review process. Please kindly
reconsider and don't publish any such backward list again.

Instead, I don't know, fetch some SPI money to offer a special poster or
unique one-time-edition only hoodie or a signed mug or whatever to extra
proficient contributors and turn that into a game people want to win.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Hannu Krosing

On 06/24/2013 05:54 PM, Joshua D. Drake wrote:

 On 06/24/2013 08:40 AM, Maciej Gajewski wrote:
 Maybe this policy should be mentioned on the Wiki, so newbies like
 myself (who wouldn't even dare reviewing patches submitted be seasoned
 hackers) are not surprised by seeing own name on a shame wall?

 It is mentioned. Of course now I can't find it but it is there.

 However, I believe you are taking the wrong perspective on this. This
 is not a shame wall. It is a transparent reminder of the policy and
 those who have not assisted in reviewing a patch but have submitted a
 patch themselves.

 In short, leave the ego at the door.
Would be much easier to do if you did not post this to the list :)

I guess you can also extract the e-mails and post only to the slackers.

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PostgreSQL Consultant
Performance, Scalability and High Availability
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On 06/24/2013 08:01 AM, Dimitri Fontaine wrote:
 Andrew Dunstan and...@dunslane.net writes:
 I think we maybe need to be a bit more careful about a name and shame
 policy, or it will be ignored.
 
 I very much don't like that idea of publishing a list of names either.
 Editing the reviewer field and sending personal notices is fine by me,
 but name and shame is walking the line…

Actually, every submitter on that list -- including Maciej -- was sent a
personal, private email a week ago.  A few (3) chose to take the
opportunity to review things, or promised to do so, including a brand
new Chinese contributor who needed help with English to review his
patch.  The vast majority chose not to respond to my email to them at
all.  When private email fails, the next step is public email.

Maciej is correct that this policy also belongs on the how to submit a
patch wiki page.  I will remedy that.

Doing the patch counts yesterday, it became clear to me that the reason
for the patch review pileups was that many people were submitting
patches but not participating in the review process at all.  That is, we
have 100 to 150 people a year submitting patches, but relying entirely
on the committers and a few heroic uber-reviewers to do 90% of the patch
review.  This is the commitfest problem in a nutshell.

The purpose of the list was to make it completely apparent where the
problem in clearing the patch queue lies, and to get some of our
submitters to do patch review.

Per both of my emails yesterday, I am trying to make sure that this CF
finishes on time.  Following the rules passed at the developer meetings
for how CFs are to be run, I am doing so.  If the result is
unsatisfactory, I can always resign as CFM.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Dimitri Fontaine

Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes:
 patch.  The vast majority chose not to respond to my email to them at
 all.  When private email fails, the next step is public email.

The only problem I have here is that I don't remember about deciding to
publish a list of failures by public email at all. I hope it's not my
memory failing me here, because then I would have to remember why I
didn't speak up against that idea at the time.

Regards,
-- 
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On 06/24/2013 10:02 AM, Dimitri Fontaine wrote:
 Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes:
 patch.  The vast majority chose not to respond to my email to them at
 all.  When private email fails, the next step is public email.
 
 The only problem I have here is that I don't remember about deciding to
 publish a list of failures by public email at all. I hope it's not my
 memory failing me here, because then I would have to remember why I
 didn't speak up against that idea at the time.

You didn't decide anything.  As the CFM, I did.  My job for this month
is to make sure that 100% of patches in that queue get reviewed and
either committed or bounced by July 15th.  I'm doing my job.

I will be more than happy to resign as CFM and turn it over to someone
else if people have a problem with it.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On 2013-06-24 10:10:11 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
 On 06/24/2013 10:02 AM, Dimitri Fontaine wrote:
  Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes:
  patch.  The vast majority chose not to respond to my email to them at
  all.  When private email fails, the next step is public email.
  
  The only problem I have here is that I don't remember about deciding to
  publish a list of failures by public email at all. I hope it's not my
  memory failing me here, because then I would have to remember why I
  didn't speak up against that idea at the time.
 
 You didn't decide anything.  As the CFM, I did.  My job for this month
 is to make sure that 100% of patches in that queue get reviewed and
 either committed or bounced by July 15th.  I'm doing my job.
 
 I will be more than happy to resign as CFM and turn it over to someone
 else if people have a problem with it.

Heck, Josh. People have to be allowed to critize *a small part* of your
work without you understanding it as a fundamental request to step back
from being CFM.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List


 Instead, I don't know, fetch some SPI money to offer a special poster or
 unique one-time-edition only hoodie or a signed mug or whatever to extra
 proficient contributors and turn that into a game people want to win.

I like that idea too.  Provided that we allocate enough funding that I
can have a paid admin handle the shipping etc.  Frankly, I'd be up for
the idea that patch reviewers get a special t-shirt for each PostgresQL
release, for reviewing even *one* patch.

Mind you, we wouldn't be able to reward a few reviewers, because they
live in countries to which it's impossible to ship from abroad.

I have previously proposed that all of the reviewers of a given
PostgreSQL release be honored in the release notes as a positive
incentive, and was denied on this from doing so.  Not coincidentally, we
don't seem to have any reviewers-at-large anymore.

-- 
Josh Berkus
PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List



On 06/24/2013 10:10 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:


On 06/24/2013 10:02 AM, Dimitri Fontaine wrote:

Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com writes:

patch.  The vast majority chose not to respond to my email to them at
all.  When private email fails, the next step is public email.


The only problem I have here is that I don't remember about deciding to
publish a list of failures by public email at all. I hope it's not my
memory failing me here, because then I would have to remember why I
didn't speak up against that idea at the time.


You didn't decide anything.  As the CFM, I did.  My job for this month
is to make sure that 100% of patches in that queue get reviewed and
either committed or bounced by July 15th.  I'm doing my job.

I will be more than happy to resign as CFM and turn it over to someone
else if people have a problem with it.


Let's not be hasty :)

I think JoshB is spot on in this. He sent previous private emails, and a 
week later opened up the transparency so that everyone understood what 
was going on.


What I find unfortunate is people are spending a bunch of time on this 
argument which has been clearl thought out by Josh instead of reviewing 
patches.


I repeat:

Leave your ego at the door. Josh is doing what could be considered one 
of the most thankless (public) jobs in this project. How about we 
support him in getting these patches taken care of instead of whining 
about the fact that he called us out for not doing our jobs (reviewing 
patches) in the first place.


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drkae

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List


 I will be more than happy to resign as CFM and turn it over to someone
 else if people have a problem with it.
 
 Heck, Josh. People have to be allowed to critize *a small part* of your
 work without you understanding it as a fundamental request to step back
 from being CFM.

Criticize, yes.  Which I'm responding to.

But if this group votes that I am not to publish a public list of
submitters who aren't reviewing again, or otherwise votes to restrict my
ability to enforce the rules which the Developer Meetings have decided
on for CFs, I will resign as CFM.  The job is too hard to do with one
hand tied behind my back. That's what I'm saying.

-- 
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PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
http://pgexperts.com


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Atri Sharma

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 10:54 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:

 I will be more than happy to resign as CFM and turn it over to someone
 else if people have a problem with it.

 Heck, Josh. People have to be allowed to critize *a small part* of your
 work without you understanding it as a fundamental request to step back
 from being CFM.

 Criticize, yes.  Which I'm responding to.

 But if this group votes that I am not to publish a public list of
 submitters who aren't reviewing again, or otherwise votes to restrict my
 ability to enforce the rules which the Developer Meetings have decided
 on for CFs, I will resign as CFM.  The job is too hard to do with one
 hand tied behind my back. That's what I'm saying.

Hi Josh,

Not sure if this is out of line, but I would be glad to help you out
in any way possible for this CF. Please let me know if I can lighten
your burden in any way.

Regards,

Atri


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List



On 06/24/2013 10:22 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:


Mind you, we wouldn't be able to reward a few reviewers, because they
live in countries to which it's impossible to ship from abroad.

I have previously proposed that all of the reviewers of a given
PostgreSQL release be honored in the release notes as a positive
incentive, and was denied on this from doing so.  Not coincidentally, we
don't seem to have any reviewers-at-large anymore.


I don't like idea of sending gifts. I do like the idea of public thanks. 
We should put full recognition in the release notes for someone who 
reviews a patch. If they didn't review the patch, the person that wrote 
the patch would not have gotten the patch committed anyway. Writing the 
patch is only have the battle.


Heck, think about the FKLocks patch, Alvaro wrote that patch but I know 
that Noah (as well as others) put a herculean effort into helping get it 
committed.


Reviewer recognition should be on the same level as the submitter.

JD







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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Claudio Freire

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:22 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:
 I have previously proposed that all of the reviewers of a given
 PostgreSQL release be honored in the release notes as a positive
 incentive, and was denied on this from doing so.  Not coincidentally, we
 don't seem to have any reviewers-at-large anymore.


You know... that's a very good idea.


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On 2013-06-24 10:37:02 -0700, Joshua D. Drake wrote:
 
 On 06/24/2013 10:22 AM, Josh Berkus wrote:
 
 Mind you, we wouldn't be able to reward a few reviewers, because they
 live in countries to which it's impossible to ship from abroad.
 
 I have previously proposed that all of the reviewers of a given
 PostgreSQL release be honored in the release notes as a positive
 incentive, and was denied on this from doing so.  Not coincidentally, we
 don't seem to have any reviewers-at-large anymore.
 
 I don't like idea of sending gifts. I do like the idea of public thanks. We
 should put full recognition in the release notes for someone who reviews a
 patch. If they didn't review the patch, the person that wrote the patch
 would not have gotten the patch committed anyway. Writing the patch is only
 have the battle.
 
 Heck, think about the FKLocks patch, Alvaro wrote that patch but I know that
 Noah (as well as others) put a herculean effort into helping get it
 committed.
 
 Reviewer recognition should be on the same level as the submitter.

The problem with that is that that HUGELY depends on the patch and the
review. There are patches where reviewers do a good percentage of the
work and others where they mostly tell that compiles  runs.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

-- 
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 PostgreSQL Development, 24x7 Support, Training  Services


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

JD said:
 Leave your ego at the door. Josh is doing what could be considered one
 of the most thankless (public) jobs in this project. How about we
 support him in getting these patches taken care of instead of whining
 about the fact that he called us out for not doing our jobs (reviewing
 patches) in the first place.

Actually, I think this is a very important thing for us to discuss, in
fact more important than reviewing any individual patch.  9.3 CF4 took
almost **4 months** so it's clear that the system isn't working as
designed.  So let's hash this out during CF1 rather than during CF4.

We've had the policy of submit one, review one since the 9.2 dev
cycle.  However, to my knowledge nobody has actually tried to enforce
this before, or even published stats on it.  Once I did that for this
CF, it became readily apparent to me that the failure of this policy is
at least 50% of the problem with finishing commitfests -- and releases
-- on time.

The vast majority of submitters aren't reviewing other people's patches,
even ones who have the time and resources to do so.  You'll notice that
most of the people on the List aren't new contributors to PostgreSQL; if
anything, the new contributors have been exemplary in responding to
private email that they need to do some review.

More, on the slacker list are 6-8 people who I happen to know are paid
by their employers to work on PostgreSQL.   Those are the folks I'm
particularly targeting with the Slacker list; I want to make it
transparently clear to those folks' bosses that they have to give their
staff time for patch review if they expect to get the features *they*
want into PostgreSQL.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Josh Kupershmidt

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 12:57 PM, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:
 Actually, every submitter on that list -- including Maciej -- was sent a
 personal, private email a week ago.  A few (3) chose to take the
 opportunity to review things, or promised to do so, including a brand
 new Chinese contributor who needed help with English to review his
 patch.  The vast majority chose not to respond to my email to them at
 all.  When private email fails, the next step is public email.

Hrm, I'm on the slackers list, and I didn't see an email directed to
me from JB in the last week about the CF.

Anyway, I am hoping to take at least one patch this CF, though the
recent review it within 5 days or else policy combined with a ton of
my own work has kept me back so far.

Josh


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Simon Riggs

On 24 June 2013 18:10, Josh Berkus j...@agliodbs.com wrote:

 I will be more than happy to resign as CFM and turn it over to someone
 else if people have a problem with it.

Please don't do that (until at least the end of the CF ;-) )

It's a difficult job and I'm happy you're doing it, though I suggest
an optimal setting of 2-3 is likely to work best:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mean_Machine_Angel

I would guess that many people probably don't actually understand the
problems or the policies that have emerged as a result.

Anyway, I won't say anymore because I'll probably be on some list or
other myself sometime.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List


 Hrm, I'm on the slackers list, and I didn't see an email directed to
 me from JB in the last week about the CF.

Really?  Hmmm.  I'm going to send you a test email privately, please
verify whether or not you get it.

 Anyway, I am hoping to take at least one patch this CF, though the
 recent review it within 5 days or else policy combined with a ton of
 my own work has kept me back so far.

Thanks!  Your help is much appreciated, on whatever schedule you can do it!

-- 
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PostgreSQL Experts Inc.
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Claudio Freire

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:
 I don't like idea of sending gifts. I do like the idea of public thanks. We
 should put full recognition in the release notes for someone who reviews a
 patch. If they didn't review the patch, the person that wrote the patch
 would not have gotten the patch committed anyway. Writing the patch is only
 have the battle.

 Heck, think about the FKLocks patch, Alvaro wrote that patch but I know that
 Noah (as well as others) put a herculean effort into helping get it
 committed.

 Reviewer recognition should be on the same level as the submitter.

 The problem with that is that that HUGELY depends on the patch and the
 review. There are patches where reviewers do a good percentage of the
 work and others where they mostly tell that compiles  runs.


Well, you can't so arbitrarily pick who you're recognizing as
contributor and who you aren't. So why not mention them all? They did
work for it, some more than others, but they all worked. And since
whoever submitted a patch (and got it committed) must have reviewed
something as well, they'd be recognized for both reviewing and
submitting.


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List


 The problem with that is that that HUGELY depends on the patch and the
 review. There are patches where reviewers do a good percentage of the
 work and others where they mostly tell that compiles  runs.

This project is enormously stingy with giving credit to people.  It's
not like it costs us money, you know.

-- 
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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List



On 06/24/2013 10:48 AM, Claudio Freire wrote:


Reviewer recognition should be on the same level as the submitter.


The problem with that is that that HUGELY depends on the patch and the
review. There are patches where reviewers do a good percentage of the
work and others where they mostly tell that compiles  runs.



Well, you can't so arbitrarily pick who you're recognizing as
contributor and who you aren't. So why not mention them all? They did
work for it, some more than others, but they all worked. And since
whoever submitted a patch (and got it committed) must have reviewed
something as well, they'd be recognized for both reviewing and
submitting.



Exactly. Just make it a simple policy:

Submitters and Reviewers are listed in that order:

Submitter, reviewer, reviewer

That way submitter gets first bill, satisfying the ego (as well as 
professional consideration) but reviewers are also fully recognized.


Sincerely,

Joshua D. Drkae

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On 2013-06-24 14:48:32 -0300, Claudio Freire wrote:
 On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 2:41 PM, Andres Freund and...@2ndquadrant.com wrote:
  I don't like idea of sending gifts. I do like the idea of public thanks. We
  should put full recognition in the release notes for someone who reviews a
  patch. If they didn't review the patch, the person that wrote the patch
  would not have gotten the patch committed anyway. Writing the patch is only
  have the battle.
 
  Heck, think about the FKLocks patch, Alvaro wrote that patch but I know 
  that
  Noah (as well as others) put a herculean effort into helping get it
  committed.
 
  Reviewer recognition should be on the same level as the submitter.
 
  The problem with that is that that HUGELY depends on the patch and the
  review. There are patches where reviewers do a good percentage of the
  work and others where they mostly tell that compiles  runs.
 
 
 Well, you can't so arbitrarily pick who you're recognizing as
 contributor and who you aren't. So why not mention them all? They did
 work for it, some more than others, but they all worked. And since
 whoever submitted a patch (and got it committed) must have reviewed
 something as well, they'd be recognized for both reviewing and
 submitting.

Because spending a year working on a feature isn't the same as spending
an hour or day on it. And the proposal was to generally list them at the
same level.
At least the 9.3 release notes seem to list people that reviewed
extensively prominently on the patches...

Greetings,

Andres Freund

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List


 Because spending a year working on a feature isn't the same as spending
 an hour or day on it. And the proposal was to generally list them at the
 same level.
 At least the 9.3 release notes seem to list people that reviewed
 extensively prominently on the patches...

My proposal was to have a compiled list of reviewers at the end of the
release notes, in the form of:

Reviewers and Testers for #.# Included: name, name, name, name

That way we can pick up the trivial reviewers as well, and even testers
who are not otherwise contributors.

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http://pgexperts.com


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

On 2013-06-24 10:50:42 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:
 
  The problem with that is that that HUGELY depends on the patch and the
  review. There are patches where reviewers do a good percentage of the
  work and others where they mostly tell that compiles  runs.
 
 This project is enormously stingy with giving credit to people.  It's
 not like it costs us money, you know.

Listing a reviewer that didn't do all that much at the same level as the
author or an somebody having done an extensive review will cost you
contributors in the long run.

I am all for introducing a Contributed by reviewing: ... section in
the release notes.

Greetings,

Andres Freund

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List



On 06/24/2013 10:59 AM, Andres Freund wrote:


On 2013-06-24 10:50:42 -0700, Josh Berkus wrote:



The problem with that is that that HUGELY depends on the patch and the
review. There are patches where reviewers do a good percentage of the
work and others where they mostly tell that compiles  runs.


This project is enormously stingy with giving credit to people.  It's
not like it costs us money, you know.


Listing a reviewer that didn't do all that much at the same level as the
author or an somebody having done an extensive review will cost you
contributors in the long run.

I am all for introducing a Contributed by reviewing: ... section in
the release notes.


It should be listed with the specific feature.

JD


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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Robert Haas

On Mon, Jun 24, 2013 at 1:24 PM, Joshua D. Drake j...@commandprompt.com wrote:
 Leave your ego at the door. Josh is doing what could be considered one of
 the most thankless (public) jobs in this project. How about we support him
 in getting these patches taken care of instead of whining about the fact
 that he called us out for not doing our jobs (reviewing patches) in the
 first place.

Quite.

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Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List

2013-06-24 Thread Szymon Guz

I'm just wondering about newbies...

I've created my first patch, so I'm one of them, I think.

I've reviewed some patches, but only some easier ones, like pure regression
tests. Unfortunately my knowledge is not enough to review patches making
very deep internal changes, or some efficiency tweaks. I'm not sure if
those patches should be reviewed by newbies like me, as I just don't know
what is good and what is bad, even if a patch looks OK for me. What's the
use of my review, if I don't understand the internals enough, I can apply
the patch, run tests, look inside and I'm sure I won't find any problems?

Maybe this is the reason why there are not so many reviewers?

I'm not sure if such a strict policy will bring anything good. If newbies
won't be able to review patches, they won't be committing simple patches,
as they won't be able to review others.

If this policy will be so strict, I will spend huge amount of time to
understand the whole Postgres code before sending my next patch, as most
probably I will have problems with making the reviews.


Szymon

Re: [HACKERS] [9.4 CF 1] The Commitfest Slacker List