On Thu, Feb 01, 2001 at 12:52:21PM +1100, Josh G wrote:
I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
any, apart from myself, and I've been just shy of being called a lying
scumbag by a few HR companies
sounds like you cannot afford NOT to have a second wife! DANG! Some
folk have all the luck :!
On Sat, Feb 03, 2001 at 09:25:35AM +0530, [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote:
Hah! My wife has a formal education in graphics design. My web sites
would look like
Ok, I just started my own company and finished work for my first client
(shameless plug here: http://www.alamosawinecellars.com). The problem I
had wasn't in pricing my work by what it's worth and how much time I put
in it, but pricing it in a way that would work for my client. I ended
up
, February 02, 2001 8:56 PM
To: johnny p.
Cc: Jerry Lake; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote:
Hah! My wife has a formal education in graphics design. My web sites
would look like crap without her extensive layout skills. :) I'm
Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
rates in this manner?
It's always been my understanding that
The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
of pricing between competitors (all or some)
a federal offense.
Am I taking this too literally?
I think so.
First of all, this isn't a US-only
"SW" == "Steve Werby" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
"Benjamin Munoz" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a
recruiter told me
that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for
developers of PHP web apps (in Los Angeles).
Interesting.
As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the
emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me. Not all
programmers are created equal. A lot of clients don't recognize
that. Some
mistakenly believe that a $120/hr. programmer is 20% more productive than
a
PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:23 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
As a PHP programmer and COO of a development and consulting shop, the
emphasis on hourly rate is something that really amazes me. Not all
"Siim Einfeldt aka Itpunk" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
But here I have to disagree with you. Yes, some guys who charge only $10/h
might sometimes be better than $200/h, but you cant say that there is
*no* corralation between rates and quality. Sometimes there actually
is.
$10 versus $200 is a
So how do you know what to charge when youre independent and just starting?
_
Do You Yahoo!?
Get your free @yahoo.com address at http://mail.yahoo.com
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PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, e-mail: [EMAIL
johnny this is great to start out but if you keep doing it you will find
that you will get a lot of bad clients who don't value your work and
expect you to do a lot of extra stuff for free or request endless
changes. That's typical of clients who look for extremely low cost
work. Be sure to set
When in doubt, go low - esp when you're just starting out. If you're a good
coder, start at USD$20. You may go from there once you're more comfortable
with the process, have a small list of clientele, and have refined your
working environment (it's a little different than working for a
hings that are infinite; Human stupidity and the
universe. And I'm not sure about the universe." - Albert Einstein
- Original Message -
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: "Wade D" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:51 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing
PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Yep, ain't it grand...
I got hired on as a designer
and somebody got the bright idea
that I must be a programmer as well
funny I don't remember that on my resume.
Jerry Lake- [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Web Designer
Europa
Obviously I want to be profitable. But my primary motivation is to be doing
challenging work, to enjoy what I'm doing and to build software that makes
my clients happy. Sure, we could be like this other company and charge
$100,000 for a project that's worth $5,000 but we won't do that.
*laugh* There's too many "Mike Oxford" types running
around, and "Szii" seems to stick pretty well...so I use it. *shrug*
-Szii/Mike
- Original Message -
From: stankusn [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 10:56 AM
Subject: Re: [P
and bill the same total... comparing apples and oranges.
Dave
-Original Message-
From: Wade D [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 12:23 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
So how do you know what to charge when youre
tOn Fri, 2 Feb 2001, johnny p. wrote:
Hah! My wife has a formal education in graphics design. My web sites
would look like crap without her extensive layout skills. :) I'm so
lucky...
Ah! kindered spirit
My wife has a formal education in Mass Communication and Public Relations
I
Shane McBride wrote:
I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :)
I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a
project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am
VERY
-Original Message-
From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:40 PM
To: Shane McBride
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Hey Shane,
This is a tricky issue, here's me (USD):
$60/hr
$30/hr if end result becomes
, and hangovers to... suffering.
- Original Message -
From: "Jonathan Sharp" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I find this an interesting topic...
One thing that we've found wh
"JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
good programmer, and a good graphic designer.
I've never quite understood why employers seem to expect that a
php/perl programmer should also be doing graphic design. They're
to
hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.
- Original Message -
From: "Robin Vickery" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:43 AM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
"JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROT
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I find this an interesting topic...
One thing that we've found when looking for additional PHP
programmers to
add is that since PHP has exploded there are a lot of people out there
coding in PHP that don't have a background in
Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
rates in this manner?
It's always been my understanding that
The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
of pricing between competitors (all or some)
a federal offense.
Am I taking this too literally?
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To
You are taking this WAY to seriously. What you are talking about is the Sherman
Act that developed our current antitrust laws. Specifically you are talking
about "price fixing", which is illegal in the US. If EVERY PHP coder in the US
got together at a trade show and said "We will all demand
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Just an observation from some people I know in the USA - they charge
whatever they can get away with.
How about honestly charging what you think you are worth ?
Knowing how to use php means nothing - but if you know it well you will
be worth a lot.
Slight
To: Philip Olson; Josh G
Cc: PHP User Group
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Yeah, I'm consulting though...but yes there are some other options...where
does it say $80/hour in the US?!
-Jonathan
-Original Message-
From: Philip Olson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday
*
-Original Message-
From: Joe Stump [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 9:52 AM
To: Brian V Bonini
Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
You are taking this WAY to seriously. What you are talking about
is the Sherman
Act
]]
Sent: 01 February 2001 17:30
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
What you may be referring to is when competitors in a small market (or in a
market with limited competition) compare their prices behind the scenes in
order to keep the prices high. Which is what
://www.pacifier.com
-Original Message-
From: Robin Vickery [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 3:43 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
"JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I hear you. Another thing
Besides, sometimes I think that PHP is so easy to learn
that we should be considered unskilled labor ;-)
The skill is in the shaping. Any joe off the street can make an
ugly sculpture. It takes talent and skill to make art...
:p
Chris
I agree 100%. It looks simple, but to write really good code you need to
know your stuff.
CB
At 01:56 PM 2/1/01 -0600, Boget, Chris wrote:
Besides, sometimes I think that PHP is so easy to learn
that we should be considered unskilled labor ;-)
The skill is in the shaping. Any joe off
Somewhat related to the recent discussion on pricing for contractors, I thought I'd
ask if anyone knows of any good resources to help budding contrators/consultants find
their way around.
I'm a skilled web developer, but I'm not so knowledgeable when it comes to law and
conventions in the US
tion, sick days, etc.
-Szii
- Original Message -
From: Jonathan Sharp [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: Philip Olson [EMAIL PROTECTED]; Josh G [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Cc: PHP User Group [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 6:26 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Yeah, I'm
-
From: Dean Hall [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: PHP General [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:43 AM
Subject: [PHP] contracting consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")
Somewhat related to the recent discussion on pricing for contractors, I
thought I'd ask if
hursday, February 01, 2001 11:37 AM
Subject: RE: [PHP] contracting consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")
Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told
me
that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
veloper community do to change this?
Thanks, I'm very interested in others' opinions on this.
-Ben
-Original Message-
From: Dean Hall [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 10:43 AM
To: PHP General
Subject: [PHP] contracting consulting (was "[PHP] Pr
PROTECTED]]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:20 PM
To: Benjamin Munoz; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: RE: [PHP] contracting consulting (was "[PHP] Pricing for PHP
programming???")
Just some thoughts on this topic. I've ran a web development business for
6 years. I've seen demand fo
Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
rates in this manner?
It's always been my understanding that
The U.S. law specifically makes discussion
of pricing between competitors (all or some)
a federal offense.
Am I taking this too literally?
Lucky most of us arnt in the US then isnt it.
hplace.com
- Original Message -
From: "James Moore" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 2:10 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
Isn't it illegal in the US to discuss
rates in this manner?
It's always b
Benjamin Munoz wrote:
Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told me
that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
web apps (in Los Angeles). Although I've been very productive developing in
PHP, he advised me to learn something
Simply because both involve computers.
Miles
At 11:43 AM 2/1/01 +, Robin Vickery wrote:
"JG" == "Josh G" [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
good programmer, and a good graphic designer.
I've never quite understood why
Hi Ben,
I know that that Java/EJB/JSP and COM/ASP is in MUCH more demand, and
therefore command a higher wage. Demand vs supply, right?. A search today
on monster.com for ASP in LA yields 142 listings, Java yields 262, JSP
yields 32, Perl yields 105, PHP yields 16, cold fusion yields 16.
-What can we as a developer community do to change this?
Prove that Open Source is working, and better than many commercial
solutions, too.
This is something I like to do within my company: they used to buy software
online saying that it is still cheaper then develop it ourselves. Hmm.. I
"Benjamin Munoz" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Great thread. When I was changing jobs in April of 2000, a recruiter told
me
that PHP is "cool and all", but there is zero demand for developers of PHP
web apps (in Los Angeles).
Interesting. We're located in [not very large, but high tech/internet
"Shane McBride" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP?
There's no magic answer. And no offense, but if you categorize building
business solutions delivered via the internet as "writing PHP" then your
services probably shouldn't be priced at the
CTED]
Sent: Friday, February 02, 2001 3:20 PM
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
"Shane McBride" [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP?
There's no magic answer. And no offense, but if you categorize building
business solution
At 11:54 1/02/2001 -0800, Terrence Chay wrote:
We should be prudent when discussing how much we charge for programming.
I'm no lawyer but I believe it's okay to discuss hypotheticals, histories,
and such, but remember that discussing wage rates may run against anti-trust
regulation as
I know this is not really a PHP question, but it should make for a good thread. :)
I was wondering what other PHP people charge to write PHP? I have just been given a
project for a fairly large customer, much larger than I normally do work for. So I am
VERY confused.concerned about how to
. Covell
President / Owner
Rolet Internet Services, LLC
Web: www.rolet.com
Email: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Phone: 816.210.7145
Fax: 816.753.1952
-Original Message-
From: Shane McBride [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 2:25 PM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: [PHP] Pricing for PHP
I get flamed for this sometimes, but we don't normally charge an hourly rate for a
project. After-project maintenance, yes, but for an initial project we normally quote
a fixed price.
The price will cover a minimal hourly rate to cover our costs, but we don't normally
cap it on the top
by
eer in you. Beer leads to intoxication, intoxication to
hangovers, and hangovers to... suffering.
- Original Message -
From: "Jonathan Sharp" [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Thursday, February 01, 2001 12:49 PM
Subject: RE: [PHP] Pricing for PHP program
I charge $50/hr. for any programming I do - if it's a small project. For
larger projects, I work out a budget with my client.
I'm in the process of releasing a new service to the web, though. Swift
eNetwork. This project will allow my clients to register their website on
the network and
This thread has really fired up my desire to go the states US$80
an hour for php dmn, that's a shitload more than I
make here, which is more like US$20/hr
Remember though, if you're on a salary you'll get less an hour for
ANYTHING (not just PHP) but it'll at least be
I have an engineering background with 10yrs consulting experience and have seen many
different type of fee structures (fixed project rate, hourly, percentage, profit-share
etc.)
The typical formula for determining rate is 2-3 times salary. The multiplier covers
GA + a little profit margin.
PROTECTED]]
Sent: Wednesday, January 31, 2001 5:52 PM
To: PHP User Group
Subject: Re: [PHP] Pricing for PHP programming???
I hear you. Another thing that's hard to find, is somebody who is a
good programmer, and a good graphic designer. I don't really know
any, apart from myself, and I've been
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