Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
Ford, Mike wrote:
> On 04 June 2009 19:09, PJ advised:
>
>
>> Nitsan Bin-Nun wrote:
>>
From my experience I tend to use a difference ID for the
>> body tag, for
>>
>>> instance and then format it in my CSS using ID
>>> reference: #homepage .classname {
>>> color: blue;
>>> }
>>>
>>> This way you can use a default format for all the pages and create
>>>
> minor
>
>>> (or major) changes in the theme in no time :)
>>>
>>> I would also suggest to attach the CSS filename reference at the
>>>
>
>
>>> tag the update time of the file, so that the browser will
>>>
> automatically
>
>>> update the cache of the CSS whenever you decide to edit it.
>>>
>>> Just my 2 cents ;)
>>>
>>>
>> Oh, I think it's worth a lot more than that.
>> I just installed IE 8 just to have it for verification. It's no better
>> than IE 6. I never use them personally.
>> But how do you produce interesting web pages to look well on both
>> without making stupid compromises. What looks well on Firefox, looks
>>
> like
>
>> MSshit on IE.
>>
>
> This may be a silly question, but reading this just makes me wonder --
> you do have an appropriate to prevent IE going into Quirks Mode?
>
I do, thanks. PJ
> I don't usually have *that* much trouble getting IE to render very
> similarly to Firefox (and IE8 is reportedly much better), but if IE is
> in Quirks Mode it makes a huge difference and presents all sorts of
> rendering problems. (The Firefox Web Developer plugin will tell you if a
> page is rendering in Quirks Mode or Standards Compliance Mode.)
>
> Cheers!
>
> Mike
>
> --
> Mike Ford, Electronic Information Developer,
> C507, Leeds Metropolitan University, Civic Quarter Campus,
> Woodhouse Lane, LEEDS, LS1 3HE, United Kingdom
> Email: m.f...@leedsmet.ac.uk
> Tel: +44 113 812 4730
>
>
> To view the terms under which this email is distributed, please go to
> http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm
>
>
--
Hervé Kempf: "Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme."
-
Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com
http://www.ptahhotep.com
http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
Peter Ford wrote: > PJ wrote: > >> tedd wrote: >> >>> At 3:58 PM -0400 6/4/09, PJ wrote: >>> tedd wrote: > Style sheets are meant simplify things so decide on how you want > things to look uniformly throughout your site and then stick with it. > There's really no good reason to keep changing things throughout a > site. > > Cheers, > > tedd > > > Maybe I'm just too complicated. ;-) I do try to keep it simple. But then, little things creep in, like a login box on the index page which mucks up all the other pages. Then there is a recipe page which is totally different, yet to keep is stylistically continuous it uses a similar layout to the other pages but different. The same for the main recipe page, and the same for the portraits of producers - all the pages are different yet remain within a cohesive style. CSS gets super bloated and almost unamageable. Most sites are very repetitive; mine tend to be "provocative" or semthing like that. I really don't see an ooption. Although, Nitsan's body tags sound promising. I'll have to try that; maybe the solution is to do a series of definitions unique just fo certain pages. :-) >>> That's simply an example of not thinking things out before you write >>> the code. >>> >>> First you figure out a layout, then you populate it. You don't pick a >>> layout, populate it and then change the layout. That leads to a >>> lackluster and "lack of thought" site. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> tedd >>> >>> >>> >> If only it were that simple. >> When one is developing, one is always changing. And even when you're >> finally "live and on the air", you will still be changing or else your >> site will die before your client gets a chance to see all you can offer. >> It's a matter of evolution and adaptation, Darwin. ;-) >> >> > > Agree with PJ here: > More likely, you go live and the boss says "Can you make that look more like > ...?" > "Er, yes, but it totally stuffs the whole design..." > > Evolution was *not* carefully thought out - that would be Intelligent Design > > Chuckle, chuckle. ;-) -- Hervé Kempf: "Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme." - Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com http://www.ptahhotep.com http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
RE: [PHP] formatting - design question
On 04 June 2009 19:09, PJ advised:
> Nitsan Bin-Nun wrote:
>>> From my experience I tend to use a difference ID for the
> body tag, for
>> instance and then format it in my CSS using ID
>> reference: #homepage .classname {
>> color: blue;
>> }
>>
>> This way you can use a default format for all the pages and create
minor
>> (or major) changes in the theme in no time :)
>>
>> I would also suggest to attach the CSS filename reference at the
>> tag the update time of the file, so that the browser will
automatically
>> update the cache of the CSS whenever you decide to edit it.
>>
>> Just my 2 cents ;)
>>
> Oh, I think it's worth a lot more than that.
> I just installed IE 8 just to have it for verification. It's no better
> than IE 6. I never use them personally.
> But how do you produce interesting web pages to look well on both
> without making stupid compromises. What looks well on Firefox, looks
like
> MSshit on IE.
This may be a silly question, but reading this just makes me wonder --
you do have an appropriate http://disclaimer.leedsmet.ac.uk/email.htm
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
At 10:23 AM +0100 6/5/09, Peter Ford wrote: PJ wrote: > tedd wrote: >> First you figure out a layout, then you populate it. You don't pick a >> layout, populate it and then change the layout. >> If only it were that simple. When one is developing, one is always changing. And even when you're finally "live and on the air", you will still be changing or else your site will die before your client gets a chance to see all you can offer. It's a matter of evolution and adaptation, Darwin. ;-) Agree with PJ here: More likely, you go live and the boss says "Can you make that look more like ...?" "Er, yes, but it totally stuffs the whole design..." If your Boss wants you to "test out" designs for his approval, that's one thing. I see no problem with a "Let's see what this might look like?" initial design decisions -- after all, he's paying for your time. However, IMO his buck would be better spent if he hired a designer to design something around the needs of the project. I understand that sometimes "Bosses" aren't the brightest lot when it comes to things outside of their job description. But it is also your charge to explain the change asked for "totally stuffs the whole design..." If your Boss doesn't care about cost overruns in development, then start studying for his position because his boss does. I am addressing what to do with clients who change their minds on agreed layouts. My practice is the client decides on a layout that fits their needs before any development is done. If the client wants to change their mind in the middle of the development stage, that's fine -- but they will also pay for that change. In my book, the "best" way to design a site is to: 1) decide what functionality is needed; 2) and then design a layout that presents the functionality in an attractive and accessible manner. Creating a site is a lot like programming. The time spent identifying the problem will: a) shorten the overall time required to create a solution; b) and will also provide a more stable solution. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
At 4:54 PM -0400 6/4/09, PJ wrote: tedd wrote: > That's simply an example of not thinking things out before you write the code. First you figure out a layout, then you populate it. You don't pick a > layout, populate it and then change the layout. > > If only it were that simple. When one is developing, one is always changing. And even when you're finally "live and on the air", you will still be changing or else your site will die before your client gets a chance to see all you can offer. It's a matter of evolution and adaptation, Darwin. ;-) I understand clients changing their minds in mid-stream and wanting things to be different. That's Okay, because they pay for it -- PROVIDED -- that a meeting of the minds was made with the last layout. So, before any change is made to the current layout, an agreement must be made as to what that change is going to be. Anything else (i.e., let's see if I like it) is going to be very time consuming on your part. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
PJ wrote: > tedd wrote: >> At 3:58 PM -0400 6/4/09, PJ wrote: >>> tedd wrote: >>> >>> > Style sheets are meant simplify things so decide on how you want things to look uniformly throughout your site and then stick with it. There's really no good reason to keep changing things throughout a site. Cheers, tedd >>> Maybe I'm just too complicated. ;-) >>> I do try to keep it simple. But then, little things creep in, like a >>> login box on the index page which mucks up all the other pages. Then >>> there is a recipe page which is totally different, yet to keep is >>> stylistically continuous it uses a similar layout to the other pages but >>> different. The same for the main recipe page, and the same for the >>> portraits of producers - all the pages are different yet remain within a >>> cohesive style. CSS gets super bloated and almost unamageable. Most >>> sites are very repetitive; mine tend to be "provocative" or semthing >>> like that. I really don't see an ooption. Although, Nitsan's body tags >>> sound promising. I'll have to try that; maybe the solution is to do a >>> series of definitions unique just fo certain pages. :-) >> That's simply an example of not thinking things out before you write >> the code. >> >> First you figure out a layout, then you populate it. You don't pick a >> layout, populate it and then change the layout. That leads to a >> lackluster and "lack of thought" site. >> >> Cheers, >> >> tedd >> >> > If only it were that simple. > When one is developing, one is always changing. And even when you're > finally "live and on the air", you will still be changing or else your > site will die before your client gets a chance to see all you can offer. > It's a matter of evolution and adaptation, Darwin. ;-) > Agree with PJ here: More likely, you go live and the boss says "Can you make that look more like ...?" "Er, yes, but it totally stuffs the whole design..." Evolution was *not* carefully thought out - that would be Intelligent Design -- Peter Ford phone: 01580 89 Developer fax: 01580 893399 Justcroft International Ltd., Staplehurst, Kent -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
tedd wrote: > At 3:58 PM -0400 6/4/09, PJ wrote: >> tedd wrote: >> >> > Style sheets are meant simplify things so decide on how you want >>> things to look uniformly throughout your site and then stick with it. >>> There's really no good reason to keep changing things throughout a >>> site. >>> >>> Cheers, >>> >>> tedd >>> >>> >> Maybe I'm just too complicated. ;-) >> I do try to keep it simple. But then, little things creep in, like a >> login box on the index page which mucks up all the other pages. Then >> there is a recipe page which is totally different, yet to keep is >> stylistically continuous it uses a similar layout to the other pages but >> different. The same for the main recipe page, and the same for the >> portraits of producers - all the pages are different yet remain within a >> cohesive style. CSS gets super bloated and almost unamageable. Most >> sites are very repetitive; mine tend to be "provocative" or semthing >> like that. I really don't see an ooption. Although, Nitsan's body tags >> sound promising. I'll have to try that; maybe the solution is to do a >> series of definitions unique just fo certain pages. :-) > > That's simply an example of not thinking things out before you write > the code. > > First you figure out a layout, then you populate it. You don't pick a > layout, populate it and then change the layout. That leads to a > lackluster and "lack of thought" site. > > Cheers, > > tedd > > If only it were that simple. When one is developing, one is always changing. And even when you're finally "live and on the air", you will still be changing or else your site will die before your client gets a chance to see all you can offer. It's a matter of evolution and adaptation, Darwin. ;-) -- Hervé Kempf: "Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme." - Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com http://www.ptahhotep.com http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
At 3:58 PM -0400 6/4/09, PJ wrote: tedd wrote: > Style sheets are meant simplify things so decide on how you want things to look uniformly throughout your site and then stick with it. There's really no good reason to keep changing things throughout a site. Cheers, tedd Maybe I'm just too complicated. ;-) I do try to keep it simple. But then, little things creep in, like a login box on the index page which mucks up all the other pages. Then there is a recipe page which is totally different, yet to keep is stylistically continuous it uses a similar layout to the other pages but different. The same for the main recipe page, and the same for the portraits of producers - all the pages are different yet remain within a cohesive style. CSS gets super bloated and almost unamageable. Most sites are very repetitive; mine tend to be "provocative" or semthing like that. I really don't see an ooption. Although, Nitsan's body tags sound promising. I'll have to try that; maybe the solution is to do a series of definitions unique just fo certain pages. :-) That's simply an example of not thinking things out before you write the code. First you figure out a layout, then you populate it. You don't pick a layout, populate it and then change the layout. That leads to a lackluster and "lack of thought" site. Cheers, tedd -- --- http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
tedd wrote:
> At 2:08 PM -0400 6/4/09, PJ wrote:
>> Nitsan Bin-Nun wrote:
>>> >From my experience I tend to use a difference ID for the body tag,
>>> for
>>> instance and then format it in my CSS using ID
>>> reference:
>>> #homepage .classname {
>>>color: blue;
>>> }
>>>
>>> This way you can use a default format for all the pages and create
>>> minor (or
>>> major) changes in the theme in no time :)
>>>
>>> I would also suggest to attach the CSS filename reference at the
>>> tag
>>> the update time of the file, so that the browser will automatically
>>> update
>>> the cache of the CSS whenever you decide to edit it.
>>>
>>> Just my 2 cents ;)
>>>
>> Oh, I think it's worth a lot more than that.
>> I just installed IE 8 just to have it for verification. It's no better
>> than IE 6. I never use them personally.
>> But how do you produce interesting web pages to look well on both
>> without making stupid compromises. What looks well on Firefox, looks
>> like MSshit on IE.
>
> The way you do it is to keep it simple.
>
> If you use a different style sheet for every page, then not only does
> that cause more load times, but it confuses the Hell out of things, in
> my opinion.
>
> Style sheets are meant simplify things so decide on how you want
> things to look uniformly throughout your site and then stick with it.
> There's really no good reason to keep changing things throughout a site.
>
> Cheers,
>
> tedd
>
>
Maybe I'm just too complicated. ;-)
I do try to keep it simple. But then, little things creep in, like a
login box on the index page which mucks up all the other pages. Then
there is a recipe page which is totally different, yet to keep is
stylistically continuous it uses a similar layout to the other pages but
different. The same for the main recipe page, and the same for the
portraits of producers - all the pages are different yet remain within a
cohesive style. CSS gets super bloated and almost unamageable. Most
sites are very repetitive; mine tend to be "provocative" or semthing
like that. I really don't see an ooption. Although, Nitsan's body tags
sound promising. I'll have to try that; maybe the solution is to do a
series of definitions unique just fo certain pages. :-)
--
Hervé Kempf: "Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme."
-
Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com
http://www.ptahhotep.com
http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
At 2:08 PM -0400 6/4/09, PJ wrote:
Nitsan Bin-Nun wrote:
>From my experience I tend to use a difference ID for the body tag, for
instance and then format it in my CSS using ID
reference:
#homepage .classname {
color: blue;
}
This way you can use a default format for all the pages and create minor (or
major) changes in the theme in no time :)
I would also suggest to attach the CSS filename reference at the tag
the update time of the file, so that the browser will automatically update
the cache of the CSS whenever you decide to edit it.
Just my 2 cents ;)
Oh, I think it's worth a lot more than that.
I just installed IE 8 just to have it for verification. It's no better
than IE 6. I never use them personally.
But how do you produce interesting web pages to look well on both
without making stupid compromises. What looks well on Firefox, looks
like MSshit on IE.
The way you do it is to keep it simple.
If you use a different style sheet for every page, then not only does
that cause more load times, but it confuses the Hell out of things,
in my opinion.
Style sheets are meant simplify things so decide on how you want
things to look uniformly throughout your site and then stick with it.
There's really no good reason to keep changing things throughout a
site.
Cheers,
tedd
--
---
http://sperling.com http://ancientstones.com http://earthstones.com
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
Nitsan Bin-Nun wrote:
> >From my experience I tend to use a difference ID for the body tag, for
> instance and then format it in my CSS using ID
> reference:
> #homepage .classname {
> color: blue;
> }
>
> This way you can use a default format for all the pages and create minor (or
> major) changes in the theme in no time :)
>
> I would also suggest to attach the CSS filename reference at the tag
> the update time of the file, so that the browser will automatically update
> the cache of the CSS whenever you decide to edit it.
>
> Just my 2 cents ;)
>
Oh, I think it's worth a lot more than that.
I just installed IE 8 just to have it for verification. It's no better
than IE 6. I never use them personally.
But how do you produce interesting web pages to look well on both
without making stupid compromises. What looks well on Firefox, looks
like MSshit on IE.
--
Hervé Kempf: "Pour sauver la planète, sortez du capitalisme."
-
Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com
http://www.ptahhotep.com
http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
>From my experience I tend to use a difference ID for the body tag, for
instance and then format it in my CSS using ID
reference:
#homepage .classname {
color: blue;
}
This way you can use a default format for all the pages and create minor (or
major) changes in the theme in no time :)
I would also suggest to attach the CSS filename reference at the tag
the update time of the file, so that the browser will automatically update
the cache of the CSS whenever you decide to edit it.
Just my 2 cents ;)
--
Nitsan
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 7:20 PM, Shawn McKenzie wrote:
> Andrew Ballard wrote:
> > On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:54 PM, PJ wrote:
> >> This may not be strictly php but I think is may be relevant.
> >> Were I to use a different css file for every page (that is slightly
> >> different), would that affect performance?
> >> It seems to me that might be a way of simplifying and certainly speeding
> >> up development (design-wise, anyway) when using css. A different css
> >> file for different pages would certainly make it a breeze to design a
> >> page; otherwise it is hell to try to put all formatting in one file - it
> >> even tends to get fairly bloated and difficult to follow your own
> shadow.
> >>
> >> --
> >> Hervé Kempf: "Pour sauver la plančte, sortez du capitalisme."
> >> -
> >> Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com
> >> http://www.ptahhotep.com
> >> http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php
> >>
> >>
> >
> > It might be simpler during development, but YSlow! recommends putting
> > them in as few pages as is practical so the browser has fewer
> > resources to fetch and can make better use of caching. It won't affect
> > the speed of your PHP pages, but it should speed up the overall
> > download time of your pages from the end-user's perspective.
> >
> > Andrew
>
> I would have one main file that holds common styles and then if you need
> one, a page specific style sheet. You can even add all styles to the
> first and then override them in the second. This is how they were
> intended to be used. Also, most times the style sheets will be cached
> by the browser so only the first page load should matter.
>
> /* style sheet 1 */
> .someclass { color: red; }
> /* style sheet 2 */
> .someclass { color: blue }
>
> someclass will be blue.
>
> /* style sheet 1 */
> .someclass { color: red; }
> /* style sheet 2 */
> .someclass { color: blue; background-color: yellow; }
>
> /* style sheet 1 */
> .someclass { color: red; }
> /* style sheet 3 */
> .someclass { color: blue; background-color: white; }
>
> --
> Thanks!
> -Shawn
> http://www.spidean.com
>
> --
> PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
> To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
>
>
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
Andrew Ballard wrote:
> On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:54 PM, PJ wrote:
>> This may not be strictly php but I think is may be relevant.
>> Were I to use a different css file for every page (that is slightly
>> different), would that affect performance?
>> It seems to me that might be a way of simplifying and certainly speeding
>> up development (design-wise, anyway) when using css. A different css
>> file for different pages would certainly make it a breeze to design a
>> page; otherwise it is hell to try to put all formatting in one file - it
>> even tends to get fairly bloated and difficult to follow your own shadow.
>>
>> --
>> Hervé Kempf: "Pour sauver la plančte, sortez du capitalisme."
>> -
>> Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com
>> http://www.ptahhotep.com
>> http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php
>>
>>
>
> It might be simpler during development, but YSlow! recommends putting
> them in as few pages as is practical so the browser has fewer
> resources to fetch and can make better use of caching. It won't affect
> the speed of your PHP pages, but it should speed up the overall
> download time of your pages from the end-user's perspective.
>
> Andrew
I would have one main file that holds common styles and then if you need
one, a page specific style sheet. You can even add all styles to the
first and then override them in the second. This is how they were
intended to be used. Also, most times the style sheets will be cached
by the browser so only the first page load should matter.
/* style sheet 1 */
.someclass { color: red; }
/* style sheet 2 */
.someclass { color: blue }
someclass will be blue.
/* style sheet 1 */
.someclass { color: red; }
/* style sheet 2 */
.someclass { color: blue; background-color: yellow; }
/* style sheet 1 */
.someclass { color: red; }
/* style sheet 3 */
.someclass { color: blue; background-color: white; }
--
Thanks!
-Shawn
http://www.spidean.com
--
PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/)
To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
Re: [PHP] formatting - design question
On Thu, Jun 4, 2009 at 12:54 PM, PJ wrote: > This may not be strictly php but I think is may be relevant. > Were I to use a different css file for every page (that is slightly > different), would that affect performance? > It seems to me that might be a way of simplifying and certainly speeding > up development (design-wise, anyway) when using css. A different css > file for different pages would certainly make it a breeze to design a > page; otherwise it is hell to try to put all formatting in one file - it > even tends to get fairly bloated and difficult to follow your own shadow. > > -- > Hervé Kempf: "Pour sauver la plančte, sortez du capitalisme." > - > Phil Jourdan --- p...@ptahhotep.com > http://www.ptahhotep.com > http://www.chiccantine.com/andypantry.php > > It might be simpler during development, but YSlow! recommends putting them in as few pages as is practical so the browser has fewer resources to fetch and can make better use of caching. It won't affect the speed of your PHP pages, but it should speed up the overall download time of your pages from the end-user's perspective. Andrew -- PHP General Mailing List (http://www.php.net/) To unsubscribe, visit: http://www.php.net/unsub.php
