Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun etc etc
When you can get 512MB sticks of PC133 for $25 there should never be a reason to have caching from insufficient memory. If you were paying the prices of 5 years ago then you would definitely get diminishing returns from under utilized RAM but not these days. -Original Message- From: Terry Harris [mailto:terry.harris;iname.com] Sent: Thursday, October 17, 2002 4:00 PM To: Protel EDA Forum Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun etc etc On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:09:07 -0400, matt wrote: (1) You should get as much memory as you can afford. With modern OS's like Win2k and WinXP the performance of the machine scales directly with the amount of memory you have. There is no direct scaling. Once you have enough memory to avoid thrashing then additional memory just avoids some disk access with rapidly diminishing returns. If you are not seeing significant disk activity while working additional memory will provide no performance increase. Cheers, Terry. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun etc etc
Julian and the rest... (1) You should get as much memory as you can afford. With modern OS's like Win2k and WinXP the performance of the machine scales directly with the amount of memory you have. Only in rare cases where you have 4GB+ of memory can you actually decrease memory performance due to addressing limitations. But RAM is cheap... you should at least have minimum 512MB for any modern based system. (2) Scrap win98 based machines. Win98 only optimizes up to 128MB of memory (was 64MB with win95). All of the NT kernel based OS's (NT, win2k, XP) have had much better memory scaling and optimization. Win98 is just an outdated piece of crap that has no stability unless you reboot it every few days. Its pretty awful from the memory management perspective. (3) As many recommended, the Matrox G450/G550 are great cards for doing CAD work. They have very stable drivers and the best 2D performance in the market. True protel doesn't utilize any of the advanced 3D features except for the OpenGL 3D board viewer that is (a) a toy and (b) will look fine on primarily 2D cards like the matrox's. Also 2 monitor support is awesome.. my system at home is built around a G450 with dual 21 Sony Trinitrons. Its amazing how much more you can get done with that much screen real estate. As for the ATI cards... many people from Altium technical support have told me flat out there are many known issues with Protel and ATI cards and they recommend you not use Protel on any ATI graphics based computers. (4) Get a decently fast CPU but you shouldn't have to have the latest screamer to get your work done. Most of it will just determine how long it takes the autorouter to run. What is key is getting lots of memory so that the OS doesn't run out of physical memory and have to cache to virtual memory in order to get the job done. Hey it could be worse... you could be using a Mac that has no concept of virtual memory, no protected memory space, and no dynamic memory allocation (pre OS-X obviously). (5) Get a good motherboard with a known stable chipset. I prefer boards from Asus or Abit. Make sure to check any incompatibilities with the different flavors of chipsets. IE if you need something that is PCI bus intensive you would want to get something other than a VIA because of its known limitations in PCI performance. Get something like an nForce, etc. But anyway.. if you are building your own machine you should pay particular attention to aspects like that. If you are buying something like a DELL... then you don't have much to worry about since what you are buying when you get a PC like that is known tested hardware configurations. If you are getting any kind of BSOD's (blue screens) you totally need to troubleshoot your hardware. With Win2k by no means should you ever get a blue screen unless there is a hardware problem. The win2k kernel is very solid. Hardware configuration and component selection is key to a stable machine. I have an older PPro 200Mhz with 128MB of RAM that I use for a FTP/Fileserver/Print Server/Router/Firewall and it has been up 200+ days using NT4+SP6 and constantly being slammed usage wise. Solid hardware makes all the difference. (6) As for the person who asked about good power supplies vs generic ones. Most of what you are paying for other than features like fan control and low noise is basically component selection and power quality ultimately leading to MTBF. I would recommend getting an Antec, Enermax, or PC Power and Cooling PSU. If you got PC Power and Cooling's web page and you wonder why the hell are their PSU's listed for so much more than generics etc ... look at the MTBF spec.. they last 3-4X as long. But both Antec and Enermax PSUs are solid as well for a little less cash. Julian, if you are looking to build something and you know your price range I could give you some suggestions on a great configuration... just what features you are looking for a price always makes the bottom line. Hope that helps, matt -Original Message- From: Julian Higginson [mailto:J.Higginson;lake.com.au] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:31 PM To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun Hey all, I just subscribed, looking for a bit of help if possible I have just started a new job, and I'm taking over an existing design in protel99. Now I'm very familiar with protel, however I'm getting a bunch of problems generally crashing out (have had the whole computer reboot on me once, and I have had freezes, exceptions, out of range memory accesses, all the fun stuff) Basically the computer appears totally underpowered, its a PIII600 with just 128Mb RAM. (We've just found another 128 meg stick lying about and put it in this computer, which makes it run a bit more smoothly, but it has still managed to crash) I'm operating on a PCB that is 6 layers and quite large. (the PCB file is almost 8 meg) Oh, and it has an ATI video card, which I read about in the
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun etc etc
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 15:09:07 -0400, matt wrote: (1) You should get as much memory as you can afford. With modern OS's like Win2k and WinXP the performance of the machine scales directly with the amount of memory you have. There is no direct scaling. Once you have enough memory to avoid thrashing then additional memory just avoids some disk access with rapidly diminishing returns. If you are not seeing significant disk activity while working additional memory will provide no performance increase. Cheers, Terry. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:ForumAdministrator;TechServInc.com * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum;techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
Hi, You are correct to get a better machine and loose the ATI card. I run 1.7GHz and 1G RAM, and NVidia TNT2 32meg, the ATI card low memory was the cause of most of our previous problems - still no idea why We've also had problems with some printer drivers, especially a PCL6. (Incidentally, the 'old' Protel/Altium ignored all these problems, we solved them on our own, however, the 'new' DXP/Altium seem to be much more helpful - at least at the moment.) We have an external contractor that uses a much less spec machine and 256meg ram, they have a policy of formatting the HD and re-installing each time Protel crashes. (Personally, I think that's a bit extreme, read on...) Our cad station is 2.4GHz and 1G ram, we use that for most of the work. (This has a Geforce 64meg video card, but I doubt protel SCH or PCB makes use of any 3D speed ups, its mostly games that do that (Ok, and OpenGL etc.) It only has Protel installed (and windows of course) that way we eliminate any cross application problems. We use w2K pro everywhere. Turn off any DRC check that you don't really need, only turn them all one occasionally just to see. Draft, or even better hide any poly planes unless you are editing them. A useful tool re-pour poly on Yahoo Groups PEDA will help in this. (I wrote it) P99se+Service Pack 6 is the most stable - we have had no serious crashes for a long time. We occasionally get an access violation at shutdown, I believe this is a windows bug and out of Protels control (though only Protel does it..Hmm?) Compress and repair the database on a daily basis, or, use the file system rather than MSAccess. Do this manually or Protel can take ages to save. Lastly, take regular backups to a decent historic depth, we take at least two a day, using a batch file, just close down Protel and click to create a 50 deep rolling backup... :) Good luck, Jason. -Original Message- From: Julian Higginson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 16 October 2002 02:31 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun Hey all, I just subscribed, looking for a bit of help if possible I have just started a new job, and I'm taking over an existing design in protel99. Now I'm very familiar with protel, however I'm getting a bunch of problems generally crashing out (have had the whole computer reboot on me once, and I have had freezes, exceptions, out of range memory accesses, all the fun stuff) Basically the computer appears totally underpowered, its a PIII600 with just 128Mb RAM. (We've just found another 128 meg stick lying about and put it in this computer, which makes it run a bit more smoothly, but it has still managed to crash) I'm operating on a PCB that is 6 layers and quite large. (the PCB file is almost 8 meg) Oh, and it has an ATI video card, which I read about in the archives... hmm... so I spoke to my boss and I'm getting a new computer to work on, so I'm wondering what kind of specs are necessary? My guess is I need a good FSB speed more than I need the fastest processor. I'll need at least 512Mb of RAM. I'll need 7200rpm drive speed, for faster sustained disk transfers, and I'll need an OK graphics card, but no need for some super monster 3D engine What sort of success has everyone on the list had with their computer setups? ie specs vs board size? and are there any manufacturers other than ATI to avoid? What features will help with screen redraw speed? what features will help with DRC time? (about 15 minutes per DRC at the moment) How much RAM do I need to throw at the thing to stop it going to swapfiles? thanks, Julian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
Oh, You wanted to know if there are similar board to yours out there. We have a number of designs on 11x13 6 layer + 5 mech. It has more than 1000 components, populated both sides with several QFPs. I think you can even see a picture of one of the boards on the web (The site's bleeding ASP, so I can't give you a 'URL') www.citel.com Sitemap:Products:Handset Gateway:Datasheet.pdf J. -Original Message- From: Julian Higginson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 16 October 2002 02:31 To: '[EMAIL PROTECTED]' Subject: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun Hey all, I just subscribed, looking for a bit of help if possible I have just started a new job, and I'm taking over an existing design in protel99. Now I'm very familiar with protel, however I'm getting a bunch of problems generally crashing out (have had the whole computer reboot on me once, and I have had freezes, exceptions, out of range memory accesses, all the fun stuff) Basically the computer appears totally underpowered, its a PIII600 with just 128Mb RAM. (We've just found another 128 meg stick lying about and put it in this computer, which makes it run a bit more smoothly, but it has still managed to crash) I'm operating on a PCB that is 6 layers and quite large. (the PCB file is almost 8 meg) Oh, and it has an ATI video card, which I read about in the archives... hmm... so I spoke to my boss and I'm getting a new computer to work on, so I'm wondering what kind of specs are necessary? My guess is I need a good FSB speed more than I need the fastest processor. I'll need at least 512Mb of RAM. I'll need 7200rpm drive speed, for faster sustained disk transfers, and I'll need an OK graphics card, but no need for some super monster 3D engine What sort of success has everyone on the list had with their computer setups? ie specs vs board size? and are there any manufacturers other than ATI to avoid? What features will help with screen redraw speed? what features will help with DRC time? (about 15 minutes per DRC at the moment) How much RAM do I need to throw at the thing to stop it going to swapfiles? thanks, Julian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
Julian Higginson wrote: snip http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com/ there was nothing particularly relevant (in fact it only goes back a month or so...) snip If you just follow Earlier messages link, that's true, but if you use their search mechanism it will go back deeper in time (don't know how much deeper). You may also try accessing the archives of this forum. Below there are just two example threads on similiar topics I found (just a quick scan, so there may be others): Hardware questions (upgrade time - yuk!) started by Ian Wilson (13.07.2002) Fastest possible Protel system, price is not a concern started by Brian Guralnick (21.07.2002) Wojciech Oborski * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
On 11:41 AM 16/10/2002 +0200, Wojciech Oborski said: Julian Higginson wrote: snip http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com/ there was nothing particularly relevant (in fact it only goes back a month or so...) snip If you just follow Earlier messages link, that's true, but if you use their search mechanism it will go back deeper in time (don't know how much deeper). You may also try accessing the archives of this forum. That other archive is: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/protel-users-PEDA-Archive/ goes back to May 01. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
We have an external contractor that uses a much less spec machine and 256meg ram, they have a policy of formatting the HD and re-installing each time Protel crashes. (Personally, I think that's a bit extreme, read on...) Wow! Extreme indeed. Do they actually manage to get any real *work* done between the lengthy format/install process? Sounds like an inability or unwillingness to find the real cause of the problem. The only time I have re-installed W2K is when I had a networking problem a few months ago. It turned out to be an ethernet switch/router that had gone bad (on 2 of the 8 ports only!). People, if you have such bad problems, it could be a h/w fault. I cannot stress enough the importance of having solid, reliable h/w. Cheap PCs or PC components, if they cause problems, should be thrown in the garbage. That includes any new PCs (even name brands, Cq comes to mind) that are made from cheap components. No OS or app can run well on flaky h/w. People frequently ask me what to buy. I tell them to buy from the place I buy my computers - a local PC shop/ISP (white box builder) that also builds and maintains Linux business servers. Since Linux has such long uptime (few crashes), the h/w must be top-notch. They won't be as cheap as Dell, Gateway, HP, etc., but will be standard, non-proprietary, and very reliable. Best regards, Ivan Baggett Bagotronix Inc. website: www.bagotronix.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
Julian, Long ago and far away, in a parallel universe, I had occasion to contact Protel Tech Support on the issue of what I should be looking for in a graphics card when I upgraded to a 2.2 GHz P4, and was told: Protel does not use any of the 3D stuff that is out there (which is pretty much game stuff anyway), and does all of its own 3D, as well as everything else, in 2D, and hence any hardware 3D is really useless for Protel, and may in fact cause problems (however this may no longer be true for DXP). I was also told that I should have my Hardware Acceleration set back from Full to about half way to two thirds, since some of the more advanced hardware acceleration features can actually cause problems with Protel, and if I remember correctly, this may have been especially true of the ATI cards, however I was using an Nvidea GF2 at the time, but I think that that was supposed to be applicable to the ATI cards as well. This may or may not be valid data, but it should be worth a try, and may be a partial solution and keep your system from crashing until you get a new machine. Possibly others can comment on this point. On the issue of the size of the database and problems with the database itself, here a few observations that may be relevant and may be helpful until you get more computing power: I am assuming first of all that you are using the access database format, and that if so, that you have emptied your recycle bin, and do not have any extra drawings or other unnecessary things within the database, and also that you have compact on. I have found that one of the major killers for me in terms of slowing a system down or causing crashes are large Polygon Planes, especially when they have to form around a lot of other circuitry and have very high resolution, and these things tend to bring Protel to it's knees, and even crash it. If you have large Polygon Planes in the design, you might try adjusting their parameters, or deleting them altogether for now and re-adding them back in at the very end of the design. Another problem that appears to be related to Polygon Planes, but I am sure is not necessarily limited to them, since I am sure that this may occur with any large or complex database, is a problem I have recently encountered with Print Preview. I have found that with large Polygon Planes that a Print Preview can appear to hang up, and even actually get lost and go south and never return. This is especially frustrating when there is an existing Print Preview that is open when the database opens because it will attempt to redraw everything right there before the rest of the database gets opened up, and can cause things to crash or appear to crash, when opening the database. I say appear to hang up and appear to crash here because on numerous occasions when Protel appeared to be lost in space I would check the Task Manager and find it saying that Client99se is Not Responding, and assuming it to be dead, force it to End Now. However, on one occasion I did note force it to End Now and simply closed the Task Manager and walked away for a while, only to come back and find that Protel had in fact returned from vacation and had actually finished the redraw of the Print Preview, and was ready to go, which was really really bizarre. I bring this up simply because I have thus found out with my system, which is also running only 128 MB of RAM, that some things take a really really really long time, like 10 or more minutes long, and that just because the Task Manager says the program is out to lunch, that doesn't necessarily mean that it won't come back after lunch. With Protel, you have to be ready to accept anything. The next time it appears to be hung up, take a long long long break and see if it actually may come back to life. One final note, if you are using a wheel mouse with MS Intellimouse software, make sure you go to the MS website and have the latest version. Good luck on surviving until the hardware upgrade. JaMi Smith - Original Message - From: Julian Higginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:31 PM Subject: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun Hey all, I just subscribed, looking for a bit of help if possible I have just started a new job, and I'm taking over an existing design in protel99. Now I'm very familiar with protel, however I'm getting a bunch of problems generally crashing out (have had the whole computer reboot on me once, and I have had freezes, exceptions, out of range memory accesses, all the fun stuff) Basically the computer appears totally underpowered, its a PIII600 with just 128Mb RAM. (We've just found another 128 meg stick lying about and put it in this computer, which makes it run a bit more smoothly, but it has still managed to crash) I'm operating on a PCB that is 6 layers and quite large. (the PCB file is almost 8 meg) Oh, and it has an ATI video card, which I read about in the archives... hmm...
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
JaMi, there it is, the root of your problems. You have only 128MB of RAM. Upgrade that and you will have Protel running happily and will save yourself a lot of frustration. And don't forget to install a video card with at least 16MB RAM. They don't even make them with less than 32MB today. Igor -Original Message- From: JaMi Smith [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, 17 October 2002 3:45 AM To: Protel EDA Forum Cc: JaMi Smith Subject: Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun Julian, Long ago and far away, in a parallel universe, I had occasion to contact Protel Tech Support on the issue of what I should be looking for in a graphics card when I upgraded to a 2.2 GHz P4, and was told: Protel does not use any of the 3D stuff that is out there (which is pretty much game stuff anyway), and does all of its own 3D, as well as everything else, in 2D, and hence any hardware 3D is really useless for Protel, and may in fact cause problems (however this may no longer be true for DXP). I was also told that I should have my Hardware Acceleration set back from Full to about half way to two thirds, since some of the more advanced hardware acceleration features can actually cause problems with Protel, and if I remember correctly, this may have been especially true of the ATI cards, however I was using an Nvidea GF2 at the time, but I think that that was supposed to be applicable to the ATI cards as well. This may or may not be valid data, but it should be worth a try, and may be a partial solution and keep your system from crashing until you get a new machine. Possibly others can comment on this point. On the issue of the size of the database and problems with the database itself, here a few observations that may be relevant and may be helpful until you get more computing power: I am assuming first of all that you are using the access database format, and that if so, that you have emptied your recycle bin, and do not have any extra drawings or other unnecessary things within the database, and also that you have compact on. I have found that one of the major killers for me in terms of slowing a system down or causing crashes are large Polygon Planes, especially when they have to form around a lot of other circuitry and have very high resolution, and these things tend to bring Protel to it's knees, and even crash it. If you have large Polygon Planes in the design, you might try adjusting their parameters, or deleting them altogether for now and re-adding them back in at the very end of the design. Another problem that appears to be related to Polygon Planes, but I am sure is not necessarily limited to them, since I am sure that this may occur with any large or complex database, is a problem I have recently encountered with Print Preview. I have found that with large Polygon Planes that a Print Preview can appear to hang up, and even actually get lost and go south and never return. This is especially frustrating when there is an existing Print Preview that is open when the database opens because it will attempt to redraw everything right there before the rest of the database gets opened up, and can cause things to crash or appear to crash, when opening the database. I say appear to hang up and appear to crash here because on numerous occasions when Protel appeared to be lost in space I would check the Task Manager and find it saying that Client99se is Not Responding, and assuming it to be dead, force it to End Now. However, on one occasion I did note force it to End Now and simply closed the Task Manager and walked away for a while, only to come back and find that Protel had in fact returned from vacation and had actually finished the redraw of the Print Preview, and was ready to go, which was really really bizarre. I bring this up simply because I have thus found out with my system, which is also running only 128 MB of RAM, that some things take a really really really long time, like 10 or more minutes long, and that just because the Task Manager says the program is out to lunch, that doesn't necessarily mean that it won't come back after lunch. With Protel, you have to be ready to accept anything. The next time it appears to be hung up, take a long long long break and see if it actually may come back to life. One final note, if you are using a wheel mouse with MS Intellimouse software, make sure you go to the MS website and have the latest version. Good luck on surviving until the hardware upgrade. JaMi Smith - Original Message - From: Julian Higginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 6:31 PM Subject: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun Hey all, I just subscribed, looking for a bit of help if possible I have just started a new job, and I'm taking over an existing design in protel99. Now I'm very familiar with protel, however I'm getting a bunch of problems generally crashing out (have had the whole computer reboot on me once, and I
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
On Thu, 17 Oct 2002 10:39:53 +1000, Ian Wilson wrote: I know of two computers with 128 MB of RAM that run P99SE without crashing if the resource meter is watched (these are all Win98 machines). Just a confirmation - if you have insufficient physical memory you get swap file access, very insufficient physical memory you get thrashing which is painfully obvious. From a previous thread here long ago it does seem 99 is prone to crashing with insufficient virtual memory. Personally I don't think I have ever seen 99SE using more than 30MB of physical memory (that doesn't mean it hasn't committed significantly more virtual memory). Win2k is crawling with performance meters letting you monitor all kinds of memory, swap file, and paging operations. Cheers, Terry. * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
Julian, Buy what you can afford, below is the setup I have been running since early this year, no real problems to speak of. This setup is not a lot of money as your time will cost many times the cost of the hardware over one year. I try to get two years out of a machine before it becomes my 2nd (backup) computer and the others ripple down through the company (home). For the most part the computer gets switched on in the morning (8am) and off each night about (23:30) and never crashes. It sounds like the computer you are using has some kind of hardware (driver, graphics card) fault. I have hit the swap file on very odd occasions but I run many app's at once all the time (currently 13 items on the start bar) and its normally graphics programs that push it over the edge. This machine also runs DXP ok. Windows 2000 Pentium 4, 2GHz, 1GB DDR ram, 2 x 80G HDD (mirror), G550 Graphics 2 x 1600 x 1200, 32b colour, LARGE FONTS. Darren Moore -Original Message- From: Julian Higginson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] snip... My guess is I need a good FSB speed more than I need the fastest processor. I'll need at least 512Mb of RAM. I'll need 7200rpm drive speed, for faster sustained disk transfers, and I'll need an OK graphics card, but no need for some super monster 3D engine What sort of success has everyone on the list had with their computer setups? ie specs vs board size? and are there any manufacturers other than ATI to avoid? What features will help with screen redraw speed? what features will help with DRC time? (about 15 minutes per DRC at the moment) How much RAM do I need to throw at the thing to stop it going to swapfiles? thanks, Julian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
On 11:31 AM 16/10/2002 +1000, Julian Higginson said: Hey all, I just subscribed, looking for a bit of help if possible I have just started a new job, and I'm taking over an existing design in protel99. Now I'm very familiar with protel, however I'm getting a bunch of problems generally crashing out (have had the whole computer reboot on me once, and I have had freezes, exceptions, out of range memory accesses, all the fun stuff) Basically the computer appears totally underpowered, its a PIII600 with just 128Mb RAM. I still do most of my work (P99SE and DXP) on a PIII-450 (256 MB RAM, Win2K) *very* stable machine - that is the one big reason I have not changed it. I am afraid that anything I get now will not be as stable. (I will be watching this thread with interest.) DXP is slow but P99SE works well enough. I have opened large designs OK on this machine. Haven't gone as high as 8 MB PCB but certainly over 4 MB. I now stick with Matrox and maybe nVidia graphics cards, reasonably priced but good quality drivers and long term support for older cards. I have thought about dual-cpu machines but when I replace this one it will sit around the corner and/or be my word processing email machine so I am happy enough running two machines rather than one dual. The price difference, at least where I live, is significant. Also, I am not only doing Sch/PCB work so optimizing for that is no big thing in my situation. Something I have noticed on some newsgroups is the need for really good quality power supplies. There seem to be some $$$ brands that are much better than the cheapies - go for a decent number of watts over your expectation to ensure a really clean supply - this is especially so for some of the dual Athlon boards from Tyan I believe (They are stable with good pwr supply but will quickly find a flaky supply). I *only* ever put my own machines together from selected motherboards and stuff - I never buy IBM/Dell/Compaq etc (apart from a laptop maybe). There has always been a significant number of Protel users saying their machines crash all the time and a significant number saying their install of Protel is very stable. So you will get a range of replies, some like this one, not really very useful. I once did have a very unstable machine - I was eventually able to show it was a bad memory stick. Almost no other app crashed on this computer - but I found a really good mem tester and ran the check over night and it identified a bad chip. Replaced the SIMM and the machine was good - this machine I am using now in fact. Far from me to suggest you should try to track down a problem with the current HW. I wouldn't, a machine that is getting slow is not worth spending a much time on maintaining any more is it? I suspect you will get a lot of personal experience, like mine, and statements of fact (that aren't) and it will be difficult to distill too much - these discussions have been had before and there is not too much of a consensus. Some say dual-cpu is essential, others disagree (P99SE and DXP are not really multithreaded in manner that makes dual CPUs really but you can open two copies of them if doing a big auto-route or DRC and set the processor affinity appropriately). Good luck, Ian Wilson * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
When you do not have a lot of RAM, Protel products seem to become very dependant on you .swp file. What size is you .swp file set to? I use 1GB on my small system, 3GB on my big one. Brian Guralnick [EMAIL PROTECTED] (514) 624-4003 - Original Message - From: Julian Higginson [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, October 15, 2002 9:31 PM Subject: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun Hey all, I just subscribed, looking for a bit of help if possible I have just started a new job, and I'm taking over an existing design in protel99. Now I'm very familiar with protel, however I'm getting a bunch of problems generally crashing out (have had the whole computer reboot on me once, and I have had freezes, exceptions, out of range memory accesses, all the fun stuff) Basically the computer appears totally underpowered, its a PIII600 with just 128Mb RAM. (We've just found another 128 meg stick lying about and put it in this computer, which makes it run a bit more smoothly, but it has still managed to crash) I'm operating on a PCB that is 6 layers and quite large. (the PCB file is almost 8 meg) Oh, and it has an ATI video card, which I read about in the archives... hmm... so I spoke to my boss and I'm getting a new computer to work on, so I'm wondering what kind of specs are necessary? My guess is I need a good FSB speed more than I need the fastest processor. I'll need at least 512Mb of RAM. I'll need 7200rpm drive speed, for faster sustained disk transfers, and I'll need an OK graphics card, but no need for some super monster 3D engine What sort of success has everyone on the list had with their computer setups? ie specs vs board size? and are there any manufacturers other than ATI to avoid? What features will help with screen redraw speed? what features will help with DRC time? (about 15 minutes per DRC at the moment) How much RAM do I need to throw at the thing to stop it going to swapfiles? thanks, Julian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
From: Brian Guralnick [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] When you do not have a lot of RAM, Protel products seem to become very dependant on you .swp file. What size is you .swp file set to? 384MB to 384MB hmm... maybe this needs to be bigger? maybe going OT here a bit, but in windows, isnt the max swapfile size not something you should just make massively huge? I use 1GB on my small system, 3GB on my big one. well I'll try for now and see what happens. apparently I'm stuck with this PC for another 2 weeks or so. From: Darren [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Windows 2000 Pentium 4, 2GHz, 1GB DDR ram, 2 x 80G HDD (mirror), G550 Graphics 2 x 1600 x 1200, 32b colour, LARGE FONTS. OK well that seems pretty reasonable, and not too expensive to get. From: Ian Wilson [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] some of the dual Athlon boards from Tyan I believe (They are stable with good pwr supply but will quickly find a flaky supply). Its going to be coming from a supplier that normally deals with us. I assume they can get the basic PSU right... There has always been a significant number of Protel users saying their machines crash all the time and a significant number saying their install of Protel is very stable. At my last job I ran protel all the time on a PC not much better than this one with no problems at all. Then again the boards I was working on there were about 1/2 the size of the one I've got here I suspect you will get a lot of personal experience, like mine, and statements of fact (that aren't) and it will be difficult to distill too much - these discussions have been had before and there is not too much of a consensus. Thats cool, I'll sort what I hear and piece together my own opinion. :-P I'm still interested to hear from anyone working on 6 layer 8MB PCB files, to hear what they consider is a useful amount of RAM, and to hear what they think is relatively important for protel usability (FSB speed, processor speed, processor brand, HDD speed, etc etc etc.) Also any particular brands that anyone would like to slander because they have had protel problems with them would be good to hear about... Maybe this sort of discussion would be good to collate and put up on the web? my google searches didnt show up anything like that, and going through this list's email archive http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com/ there was nothing particularly relevant (in fact it only goes back a month or so...) thanks, Julian * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
Re: [PEDA] Protel99se and win2k fun
256Meg is probably the minimum. 512 or a gig might be better. You probably want to have SP2 for W2K. I'd be suspicious of a possible memory problem on that machine. You might want to try running some memory diags on it (http://www.memtest86.com/). Before I cut over to DXP I was using a PII-350, with a Voodoo 3500TV and 512Megs of RAM and Win98. Not that I'd really recommend to anyone that they run that combination, but it really didn't run all _that_ badly either. I'd look at Gforce and Matrox (G550) because they have dual monitor support, which you might eventually want. 99SE can crash sometimes, (especially if you don't sidestep some of the known issues) but what your experiencing sounds like way more than the norm. Maybe that ATI card too. ---Phil JH Hey all, JH I just subscribed, looking for a bit of help if possible I have just JH started a new job, and I'm taking over an existing design in protel99. Now JH I'm very familiar with protel, however I'm getting a bunch of problems JH generally crashing out (have had the whole computer reboot on me once, and I JH have had freezes, exceptions, out of range memory accesses, all the fun JH stuff) JH Basically the computer appears totally underpowered, its a PIII600 with just JH 128Mb RAM. (We've just found another 128 meg stick lying about and put it in JH this computer, which makes it run a bit more smoothly, but it has still JH managed to crash) I'm operating on a PCB that is 6 layers and quite large. JH (the PCB file is almost 8 meg) Oh, and it has an ATI video card, which I JH read about in the archives... hmm... so I spoke to my boss and I'm getting a JH new computer to work on, so I'm wondering what kind of specs are necessary? JH My guess is I need a good FSB speed more than I need the fastest processor. JH I'll need at least 512Mb of RAM. I'll need 7200rpm drive speed, for faster JH sustained disk transfers, and I'll need an OK graphics card, but no need for JH some super monster 3D engine JH What sort of success has everyone on the list had with their computer JH setups? JH ie specs vs board size? and are there any manufacturers other than ATI to JH avoid? JH What features will help with screen redraw speed? JH what features will help with DRC time? (about 15 minutes per DRC at the JH moment) JH How much RAM do I need to throw at the thing to stop it going to swapfiles? JH thanks, * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * To post a message: mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * To leave this list visit: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/leave.html * * Contact the list manager: * mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] * * Forum Guidelines Rules: * http://www.techservinc.com/protelusers/forumrules.html * * Browse or Search previous postings: * http://www.mail-archive.com/proteledaforum@techservinc.com * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
