[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Michael Schuerig]

On Tuesday 08 January 2008, Tobie Langel wrote:

[about 
http://schuerig.de/michael/blog/index.php/2008/01/07/dom-change-notification/]

> That's awsome. Very insightful remarks, too.
>
> How does the performance feel ?

No idea :-O I've done it primarily because I need the functionality for 
my form validator, but haven't yet come around to use it there.

Michael

-- 
Michael Schuerig
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Rod Vagg]

On Jan 8, 9:33 am, Ken Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mislav Marohnić wrote:
> > ...
>
> > - Add intuitive Prototype methods for checkbox- and radio-group form
> > elements ( e.g. a method to get the value of the currently checked
> > item(s) in based on a group name)
>
> > Hmm, we have it for select boxes and multiple selects, why not radio
> > buttons/checkboxes? You could open up an enhancement ticket for this
> > request and propose an API for this. Or find a way to re-use the
> > existing (get/setValue) API?
> > ...
>
> Here is a brainstorm:http://pastie.caboo.se/136408
> Is it intuitive, though?
>
> I would have expected the whole serializing system to go by name instead
> of element. I think it is too late to change that because it would break
> the way some people are currently using $F(). But maybe the brainstorm
> above is a good approach?
>
> - Ken

This has annoyed me enough that I'm now using an extension that adds
Form.Field which accesses form elements by name:
   http://www.xprime.com.au/prototype_form-field.js
I now use:
  * Form.Field.getValue('fieldName')
  * Form.Field.setValue('fieldName', value)
  * Form.Field.observe('fieldName', 'eventType', listener)
  * Form.Field.stopObserving('fieldName', 'eventType', listener)
and don't need to use Form.Element (or $F()) now for most things
because this can be used for both grouped and singular form elements.
A couple of things in there that some might find disturbing though; it
uses the CSS selector to get the elements (could/should do a walk
through elements and match tagName and name attributes instead) and it
has a cache to speed it up which may not be needed if the CSS selector
usage is removed. The cache has to be cleared if the relevant parts of
the DOM is changed (Form.Field.NamedCache.clear()), there is a hook in
there for Ajax calls which may or may not help when changing the DOM
with Ajax.

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Tobie Langel]

Yup,

That's awsome. Very insightful remarks, too.

How does the performance feel ?

Best,

Tobie

On Jan 7, 11:26 pm, Michael Schuerig <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> On Monday 07 January 2008, Ken Snyder wrote:
>
> > - Expand Prototype custom events to fire callbacks for Element
> > methods such as update, setStyle, remove, replace, insert, wrap,
> > writeAttribute, addClassName, removeClassName, scrollTo, etc.
>
> I've written about notifications for DOM changes just today. Have a
> look:
>
> http://schuerig.de/michael/blog/index.php/2008/01/07/dom-change-notif...
>
> Michael
>
> --
> Michael Schuerig
> mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]://www.schuerig.de/michael/
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Ken Snyder]

Michael Schuerig wrote:
> On Monday 07 January 2008, Ken Snyder wrote:
>   
>> - Expand Prototype custom events to fire callbacks for Element
>> methods such as update, setStyle, remove, replace, insert, wrap,
>> writeAttribute, addClassName, removeClassName, scrollTo, etc.
>> 
>
> I've written about notifications for DOM changes just today. Have a 
> look:
>
> http://schuerig.de/michael/blog/index.php/2008/01/07/dom-change-notification/
>
> Michael
>
>   
Really nice!

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Ken Snyder]

Mislav Marohnić wrote:
> ...
>
> - Add intuitive Prototype methods for checkbox- and radio-group form
> elements ( e.g. a method to get the value of the currently checked
> item(s) in based on a group name)
>
>
> Hmm, we have it for select boxes and multiple selects, why not radio 
> buttons/checkboxes? You could open up an enhancement ticket for this 
> request and propose an API for this. Or find a way to re-use the 
> existing (get/setValue) API?
> ...
>

Here is a brainstorm: http://pastie.caboo.se/136408
Is it intuitive, though?

I would have expected the whole serializing system to go by name instead 
of element. I think it is too late to change that because it would break 
the way some people are currently using $F(). But maybe the brainstorm 
above is a good approach?

- Ken

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Michael Schuerig]

On Monday 07 January 2008, Ken Snyder wrote:
> - Expand Prototype custom events to fire callbacks for Element
> methods such as update, setStyle, remove, replace, insert, wrap,
> writeAttribute, addClassName, removeClassName, scrollTo, etc.

I've written about notifications for DOM changes just today. Have a 
look:

http://schuerig.de/michael/blog/index.php/2008/01/07/dom-change-notification/

Michael

-- 
Michael Schuerig
mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
http://www.schuerig.de/michael/

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Ken Snyder]

This is great. Kudos to Kangax for compiling it!

I'm probably dreaming too big, but it would be great if the code was 
submitted so that it could be hosted on the site and required unit tests 
to be "certified" for a certain Prototype version.  Plus demos on the 
site would be fantastic.  I really like the ratings system, last 
modified info and tagging system!

- Ken


Gareth Evans wrote:
> Ken,
>
> http://scripteka.com/
>  
> Prototype extensions library.
>
> maintained by Kangax


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Gareth Evans]

Ken,

http://scripteka.com/

Prototype extensions library.

maintained by Kangax

On Jan 8, 2008 10:42 AM, Ken Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> I periodically share Michael's feelings as well.  For me, those concerns
> would be eliminated if the authors did two things:
> 1. Publicly disclosed the enhancements they were /considering/ (not
> necessarily a formal roadmap)
> 2. Set up a thriving community for "official" and unofficial plugins
>
> For example, I wouldn't mind at all if support for the
> mouseenter/mouseleave/mousewheel events were released as a tested and
> endorsed plugin.  Then those who were interested could use something
> they knew would work with current and future versions.
>
> I find it unsatisfying that Prototype is used by so many developers
> worldwide including Rails and many major companies, yet finding good
> scripts is a Google hit-and-miss affair.
>
> I know that months ago the authors created a private built-on-prototype
> list, but it either died or I got kicked off :)  Did that idea get killed?
>
> - Pot-Stirrer Ken
>
>
>
> Michael Peters wrote:
> > Mislav Marohnić wrote:
> >
> >> On Jan 7, 2008 9:25 PM, Ken Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> >> Some ideas
> >> are shared with the community while some are kept private for further
> >> discussions among core members.
> >>
> >
> > Why the secrecy? This is an open source project after all.
> >
> >
> >> So, the reason we don't share the exact
> >> roadmap to Prototype 2.0 with the public is because even we don't know
> >> the roadmap yet, and we don't want to set expectations and then break
> them.
> >>
> >
> > Sounds an awful lot like the IE team's arguments about why they are so
> secretive
> > with IE development. If you want me to invest my projects, my
> development time
> > and that of my team (if I'm the decision maker) into prototype/SAU then
> why not
> > give me the information and confidence that I need to make that
> decision.
> >
> > I understand not wanting to disappoint, but if you're open about the
> plans as
> > well as the reasons for failure/delay I'm pretty sure the community will
> forgive
> > you.
> >
> >
>
>
> >
>

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Ken Snyder]

I periodically share Michael's feelings as well.  For me, those concerns 
would be eliminated if the authors did two things:
1. Publicly disclosed the enhancements they were /considering/ (not 
necessarily a formal roadmap)
2. Set up a thriving community for "official" and unofficial plugins

For example, I wouldn't mind at all if support for the 
mouseenter/mouseleave/mousewheel events were released as a tested and 
endorsed plugin.  Then those who were interested could use something 
they knew would work with current and future versions.

I find it unsatisfying that Prototype is used by so many developers 
worldwide including Rails and many major companies, yet finding good 
scripts is a Google hit-and-miss affair.

I know that months ago the authors created a private built-on-prototype 
list, but it either died or I got kicked off :)  Did that idea get killed?

- Pot-Stirrer Ken



Michael Peters wrote:
> Mislav Marohnić wrote:
>   
>> On Jan 7, 2008 9:25 PM, Ken Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Some ideas
>> are shared with the community while some are kept private for further
>> discussions among core members. 
>> 
>
> Why the secrecy? This is an open source project after all.
>
>   
>> So, the reason we don't share the exact
>> roadmap to Prototype 2.0 with the public is because even we don't know
>> the roadmap yet, and we don't want to set expectations and then break them.
>> 
>
> Sounds an awful lot like the IE team's arguments about why they are so 
> secretive
> with IE development. If you want me to invest my projects, my development time
> and that of my team (if I'm the decision maker) into prototype/SAU then why 
> not
> give me the information and confidence that I need to make that decision.
>
> I understand not wanting to disappoint, but if you're open about the plans as
> well as the reasons for failure/delay I'm pretty sure the community will 
> forgive
> you.
>
>   


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Andrew Dupont]

On Jan 7, 2:54 pm, Michael Peters <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Mislav Marohnić wrote:
> > On Jan 7, 2008 9:25 PM, Ken Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > Some ideas
> > are shared with the community while some are kept private for further
> > discussions among core members.
>
> Why the secrecy? This is an open source project after all.

In my experience, it's not about secrecy; it's more to do with making
sure ideas can germinate (out of the "wouldn't it be cool if..." phase
and into an API and means of implementation). It's also a guard
against overpromising and underdelivering, as Mislav says.

> > So, the reason we don't share the exact
> > roadmap to Prototype 2.0 with the public is because even we don't know
> > the roadmap yet, and we don't want to set expectations and then break them.
>
> Sounds an awful lot like the IE team's arguments about why they are so 
> secretive
> with IE development. If you want me to invest my projects, my development time
> and that of my team (if I'm the decision maker) into prototype/SAU then why 
> not
> give me the information and confidence that I need to make that decision.

There should be a successor to Godwin's Law that applies to Microsoft/
IE comparisons. ;-)

We love that people use Prototype/scripty. The code only gets better
when more people use it. But, like most other open-source projects,
we're not trying to "sell" you on using our stuff. Open-source
software has evangelists (and I admit we don't do enough
evangelizing), but it has very few salesmen.

If you need information, you're in the right place. We're all happy to
answer questions about the direction in which Prototype is heading. If
we can't give you an answer to a question (will this feature be in the
next version, etc.), it's usually because we haven't decided yet.

On Jan 7, 2:25 pm, Ken Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> - Expand Prototype custom events to fire callbacks for Element methods
> such as update, setStyle, remove, replace, insert, wrap, writeAttribute,
> addClassName, removeClassName, scrollTo, etc.

Aye. Don't know if we're doing it for *everything* you've listed, but
certainly for most of them. You'll be able to tell *any* method to
fire a custom event by using Function#wrap. In fact, you can do that
right now.

> - Add support for callback registration and multiple callbacks for SAU
> Effect events

Nothing's final, but based on what I've seen I'd expect for Scripty
2.0 to make heavy use of custom events.

> - Streamline SAU Effects to all use Effect#Morph

No idea about this one.

> - Add Prototype support for onmouseenter and onmouseleave

As Mislav points out, I did address this issue in the blog post linked
above. He reminds me that I never did post the code for my preferred
solution to this problem, but I'll get around to that soon.

> - Add intuitive Prototype methods for checkbox- and radio-group form
> elements (e.g. a method to get the value of the currently checked
> item(s) in based on a group name)

No one's suggested this yet, but I'll make a note of this feature
request. Feel free to elaborate (in a separate thread) or propose an
API for this. The same goes to everyone on this list: feel free to
request things you want in the next version of Prototype. The worst we
can do is say "no," which is really just shorthand for "no, but please
don't take it personally, and we encourage you to implement this as a
Prototype add-on in case there are other people who might find this
useful."

Also, just to be clear: competition with other frameworks is not a
concern to me, and I don't think it's a concern to Sam or anyone else.
All the major frameworks have open mailing lists; most have open
source control. There are no trade secrets to worry about.

Cheers,
Andrew
--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Ken Snyder]

Mislav Marohnić wrote:
> ...
>
> - Add Prototype support for onmouseenter and onmouseleave
>
>
> This is definitely useful to the majority of users. We are still 
> discussing if it's going to become core and in which version. 
> Meanwhile, read the very insightful article by Andrew about why 
> throwing the support for those events out was really a good idea (we 
> had the working implementations far before the 1.6 release): 
> http://andrewdupont.net/2007/11/07/pseudo-custom-events-in-prototype-16/
> (The key is revisiting the same problem with another approach, and 
> finally picking the best one)
> ...
>
I may not completely understand Andrew's argument, but I think the big 
counter argument is that most other frameworks already support these 
events. And with 10 lines extra for mouseenter/mouseleave and 20 lines 
extra for mousewheel, I'm not seeing the slippery slope to bloated code. 
Furthermore, it seems that browsers are slowly converging on standards 
compliance (although mouseenter/mouseleave has not been proposed as a 
standard afaik) which will eventually simplify or remove the extra code 
for these events.

- Ken


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Ken Snyder]

Mislav Marohnić wrote:
> ...
>
> - Expand Prototype custom events to fire callbacks for Element methods
> such as update, setStyle, remove, replace, insert, wrap,
> writeAttribute,
> addClassName, removeClassName, scrollTo, etc.
>
>
> That is planned for the next major release. Based on how it performs, 
> it may be pushed further down the road. We'll see.
Awesome! I've always seen the value for consistently using the "wrapper" 
functions above (i.e. instead of using innerHTML, className, etc.) is 
the prospect of callbacks.

> - Add support for callback registration and multiple callbacks for SAU
> Effect events 
>
>
> Is the current model for callbacks in script.aculo.us 
>  too limiting? It would be better if you would 
> explain this request with an example.
> ...
>
// for example, attach callbacks at any point without having to compose 
a new function
var myeffect = Effect.Grow('mydiv', {afterFinish: mycallback1});
//...
myeffect.observe('afterFinish', mycallback2);


// current approach (is this even correct? it is confusing)
var fn = myeffect.options.afterFinish;
myeffect.options.afterFinish = function() {
fn.apply(this, arguments);
mycallback2.apply(this, arguments)
};



--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Michael Peters]

Mislav Marohnić wrote:
> On Jan 7, 2008 9:25 PM, Ken Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Some ideas
> are shared with the community while some are kept private for further
> discussions among core members. 

Why the secrecy? This is an open source project after all.

> So, the reason we don't share the exact
> roadmap to Prototype 2.0 with the public is because even we don't know
> the roadmap yet, and we don't want to set expectations and then break them.

Sounds an awful lot like the IE team's arguments about why they are so secretive
with IE development. If you want me to invest my projects, my development time
and that of my team (if I'm the decision maker) into prototype/SAU then why not
give me the information and confidence that I need to make that decision.

I understand not wanting to disappoint, but if you're open about the plans as
well as the reasons for failure/delay I'm pretty sure the community will forgive
you.

-- 
Michael Peters
Developer
Plus Three, LP


--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---

[Prototype-core] Re: Development Roadmap

[Mislav Marohnić]

On Jan 7, 2008 9:25 PM, Ken Snyder <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:

>
> What features are the authors considering in upcoming releases?  Or is
> public discussion of the Prototype/SAU roadmap limited due to factors
> such as competition with other frameworks?


We don't lay out long roadmaps for Prototype library. Instead, we focus
mostly on two future releases: one minor (bug fixes, speedups, minor
additions) and one major (major new features, API changes). Some ideas are
shared with the community while some are kept private for further
discussions among core members. So, the reason we don't share the exact
roadmap to Prototype 2.0 with the public is because even we don't know the
roadmap yet, and we don't want to set expectations and then break them.

- Expand Prototype custom events to fire callbacks for Element methods
> such as update, setStyle, remove, replace, insert, wrap, writeAttribute,
> addClassName, removeClassName, scrollTo, etc.


That is planned for the next major release. Based on how it performs, it may
be pushed further down the road. We'll see.


> - Add support for callback registration and multiple callbacks for SAU
> Effect events


Is the current model for callbacks in script.aculo.us too limiting? It would
be better if you would explain this request with an example.


> - Add Prototype support for onmouseenter and onmouseleave


This is definitely useful to the majority of users. We are still discussing
if it's going to become core and in which version. Meanwhile, read the very
insightful article by Andrew about why throwing the support for those events
out was really a good idea (we had the working implementations far before
the 1.6 release):
http://andrewdupont.net/2007/11/07/pseudo-custom-events-in-prototype-16/
(The key is revisiting the same problem with another approach, and finally
picking the best one)

- Add intuitive Prototype methods for checkbox- and radio-group form
> elements (e.g. a method to get the value of the currently checked
> item(s) in based on a group name)


Hmm, we have it for select boxes and multiple selects, why not radio
buttons/checkboxes? You could open up an enhancement ticket for this request
and propose an API for this. Or find a way to re-use the existing
(get/setValue) API?

Thanks for all the questions/suggestions!

- Mislav

--~--~-~--~~~---~--~~
You received this message because you are subscribed to the Google Groups 
"Prototype: Core" group.
To post to this group, send email to prototype-core@googlegroups.com
To unsubscribe from this group, send email to [EMAIL PROTECTED]
For more options, visit this group at 
http://groups.google.com/group/prototype-core?hl=en
-~--~~~~--~~--~--~---