Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Steve Dower
On 12Jul2018 1102, Yury Selivanov wrote: IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in everything on Guido's level. The actual solution is to ensure the members of the group are humble enough to admit this, and aware enough of the community to be able to identify and

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Le 12/07/2018 à 20:22, Doug Hellmann a écrit : > Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700: >> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov wrote: >> >>> >>> IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in >>> everything on Guido's level. That can be

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Eric Snow
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:29 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow wrote: >> In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill >> in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in September if >> we haven't resolved on a permanent solution by

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Raymond Hettinger
> On Jul 12, 2018, at 6:14 PM, Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > I think it would be worth studying the governance structure (*) of a > bunch of open source projects picked according to a set of criteria: > > - major project in # of users and contributors > - non BDFL-governed > - mostly

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700: > On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov wrote: > > > > > IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who is as well-versed in > > everything on Guido's level. That can be solved if Guido agrees to > > join the permanent

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Steven D'Aprano
I'm sure I will have more (public) comments later, but for now I'd like to limit myself to one thing: On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:41:52AM -0600, Eric Snow wrote: > In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill > in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess the situation in

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Tim Peters
[Antoine Pitrou] > > That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido > > would be legitimate as a Python BDFL. Not even Tim or Barry ;-) A majority view is probably an incorrect view anyway. If Barry had been BDFL all along, only features useful to Mailman would have

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Éric Araujo
Hello, Le 2018-07-12 à 13:55, Neil Schemenauer a écrit : > The most important decision is what will we call this entity? ;-P > I'm sure Barry will have a good idea. Is a "cabal" the correct > term? I fear the general public may not get the self-mocking humour here. A note about

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Pablo Galindo Salgado
Thank you so much for creating a language that is much bigger than itself and for your passion and commitment along all these years. I hope you enjoy this well-deserved vacation :) Paraphrasing [this]( http://neopythonic.blogspot.com/2013/10/letter-to-young-programmer.html) letter of yours:

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:28 Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > Le 12/07/2018 à 20:22, Doug Hellmann a écrit : > > Excerpts from Brett Cannon's message of 2018-07-12 11:11:49 -0700: > >> On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov > wrote: > >> > >>> > >>> IOW I don't see anyone (or some group of 3) who

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:53 Barry Warsaw wrote: > On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll > still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be > available to mentor people -- possibly

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from Christian Heimes's message of 2018-07-12 20:54:05 +0200: > On 2018-07-12 20:50, Brett Cannon wrote: > > IMHO the N-virate should primarily be responsible for delegation. > > > > Side note: I think we'll be talking less and less about language design, > > and instead

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:16, Steven D'Aprano wrote: > > https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0401/ And of course, Uncle Timmy was the original FLUFL, before Guido and Brett did their nefarious edits. :) -Barry signature.asc Description: Message signed with OpenPGP

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Carol Willing
> On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:53 AM, Barry Warsaw > wrote: > > On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum > wrote: >> >> I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still >> be there for a while as an ordinary core

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Le 12/07/2018 à 21:17, Doug Hellmann a écrit : > > If the primary approach to decision making is to delegate unless > an arbiter is absolutely necessary, then long-term consistency and > stability comes less from finding individuals to commit to serving > for very long terms on the N-virate as

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Jul 12, 2018, at 11:21, Tim Peters wrote: > > If Barry had been BDFL all along, only features useful to Mailman would have > gotten in ;-) I would have stuck around just long enough to kill off != diamonds-are-a-flufl’s-best-friend-ly y’rs, -Barry signature.asc Description: Message

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Jul 12, 2018, at 12:16, Brett Cannon wrote: > > Maybe another way to label this is design stewards? We seem to be suggesting > a cabal of folks who steward the overall design while relying on experts as > appropriate to handle finer details. I like that distinction. -Barry

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov > wrote: > > > > Thank you, Guido. This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped > > you'd lead Python for a few more years. On the other hand, Python is > > in good hands, you've built a

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Davin Potts
Per Antoine's comment: > That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido > would be legitimate as a Python BDFL. Not even Tim or Barry ;-) I think all agree that there simply is no replacing Guido, there is only succeeding Guido and demonstrating that what he has built and

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:42 Eric Snow wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov > wrote: > > > > Thank you, Guido. This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped > > you'd lead Python for a few more years. On the other hand, Python is > > in good hands, you've built a

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 10:13 Mariatta Wijaya wrote: > Guido, > > Thank you for all you've done for Python. It is well deserved break. > > I'm sad, but I like to see this as an opportunity to further improve > Python and this community. > > My first instinct is to suggest: instead of one

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
Le 12/07/2018 à 19:55, Brett Cannon a écrit : > > One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask > Guido to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants > us to choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may not > preclude us to essentially

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Ethan Furman
On 07/12/2018 12:28 PM, Barry Warsaw wrote: On Jul 12, 2018, at 12:16, Brett Cannon wrote: Maybe another way to label this is design stewards? We seem to be >> suggesting a cabal of folks who steward the overall design while >> relying on experts as appropriate to handle finer details. I

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Eric Snow
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 11:55 AM Brett Cannon wrote: > One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask Guido > to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants us to > choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may not preclude us to >

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Steve Dower
On 12Jul2018 1104, Antoine Pitrou wrote: Le 12/07/2018 à 19:55, Brett Cannon a écrit : One other idea if we go the BDFL or triumvirate route is we could ask Guido to choose (if he's willing). I think Guido's key point is he wants us to choose how we want to keep this team going, but that may

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Barry Warsaw
On Jul 12, 2018, at 07:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to > mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a >

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Ethan Furman
Guido, Thank you for creating Python. Thank you for giving me a second chance when I mouthed off to you. Thank you for trusting us enough to leave this great project in our hands. Thank you. -- ~Ethan~ ___ python-committers mailing list

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Alexander Belopolsky
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 2:04 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > That might be a minority view, but I don't think anyone except Guido > would be legitimate as a Python BDFL. > +1 ___ python-committers mailing list python-committers@python.org

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Christian Heimes
On 2018-07-12 20:50, Brett Cannon wrote: > IMHO the N-virate should primarily be responsible for delegation. > > Side note: I think we'll be talking less and less about language design, > and instead about library and infrastructure design. > > > Same here. I suspect this will make

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Berker Peksağ
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 8:41 PM, Eric Snow wrote: > Thank you for putting so much time, effort, and care into both the > language and its community! We cannot thank you enough. +1 > In the short term we could appoint a *temporary* triumvirate to fill > in as BDFL (with the intent to re-assess

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Neil Schemenauer
On 2018-07-12, Yury Selivanov wrote: > One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years. Essentially, > an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years. Modeling the body after a supreme court seems like a good idea. They don't have to make day-to-day decisions, only settle disputes

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Yury Selivanov
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM Brett Cannon wrote: [..] >> One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years. Essentially, >> an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years. > > > But that doesn't help deal with inconsistency since that just means we have > consistency for 2

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 11:02 Yury Selivanov wrote: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 1:50 PM Brett Cannon wrote: > [..] > >> One way would be to re-elect them every 5 or so years. Essentially, > >> an N-virate is a dictator-like entity for a few years. > > > > > > But that doesn't help deal with

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Christian Heimes
On 2018-07-12 20:02, Yury Selivanov wrote: > Another worry -- Guido knows mostly everything about all aspects of > Python design in all fields. To illustrate my point, I'm particularly > worried about async/await, asyncio/trio/twisted ecosystem -- so far it > seems that it's only Guido and I

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Łukasz Langa
> On Jul 12, 2018, at 2:27 PM, Raymond Hettinger > wrote: > > For the time being, I propose that we shift into low gear and defer major > language changes for a while +1 Not only do I think our first major decision should be how we make decisions now, but as the release manager of the

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Larry Hastings
(separate reply to discuss the "what do we do now" topic) On 07/12/2018 07:57 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. [...] I am not going to appoint a successor. So what are you all going to do? Create a democracy? Anarchy? A

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Senthil Kumaran
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: I'll still be here, but I'm trying to let you all figure something out for > yourselves. I'm tired, and need a very long break. > Thank you, Guido, for being the BDFL of Python. As the title goes, it is for Life. :-) I wouldn't worry

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Robert Collins
On Fri., 13 Jul. 2018, 02:58 Guido van Rossum, wrote: > available. But I'm basically giving myself a permanent vacation from being > BDFL, and you all will be on your own. > Thank you for being here, benevolent, for so long . You've been a great example in our communities and it is much

[python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Guido van Rossum
Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to mentor people

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Victor Stinner
Hi, 2018-07-12 16:57 GMT+02:00 Guido van Rossum : > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. Thank you for having solved the long standing issue of the PEP 572: taking a decision was the only way to stop

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Christian Heimes
On 2018-07-12 16:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for > a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll > still be there for a while as an ordinary

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
I think it would be worth studying the governance structure (*) of a bunch of open source projects picked according to a set of criteria: - major project in # of users and contributors - non BDFL-governed - mostly volunteer-driven - with an established decision process for major enhancements

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Hynek Schlawack
Guido, > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to > mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself a > permanent vacation from being BDFL, and you all

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Mark Shannon
On 12/07/18 15:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still be there for a while as an ordinary core

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Mark Shannon
On 12/07/18 16:55, Christian Heimes wrote: On 2018-07-12 16:57, Guido van Rossum wrote: Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Brett Cannon
On Thu, 12 Jul 2018 at 07:58 Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll > still be there for a while as an

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Yury Selivanov
Thank you, Guido. This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped you'd lead Python for a few more years. On the other hand, Python is in good hands, you've built a large enough and diverse community around it! As for the new governing model, I imagine that we don't need to make any

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Brian Quinlan
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:58 AM Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll > still be there for a while as

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Jeff Hardy
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 7:57 AM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > Now that PEP 572 is done, I don't ever want to have to fight so hard for a > PEP and find that so many people despise my decisions. > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Antoine Pitrou
I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue: once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or frustation by non-virate contributors (especially new contributors who will feel

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Mariatta Wijaya
Guido, Thank you for all you've done for Python. It is well deserved break. I'm sad, but I like to see this as an opportunity to further improve Python and this community. My first instinct is to suggest: instead of one successor, we will have several people as the new "leaders", perhaps a

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Steve Dower
On 12Jul2018 0958, Antoine Pitrou wrote: I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue: once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or frustation by non-virate contributors

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Raymond Hettinger
> On Jul 12, 2018, at 4:57 PM, Guido van Rossum wrote: > > I would like to remove myself entirely from the decision process. I'll still > be there for a while as an ordinary core dev, and I'll still be available to > mentor people -- possibly more available. But I'm basically giving myself

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Yury Selivanov
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:58 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue: > once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to > the implication and motivation of its members - but also to remarks or > frustation by

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Eric Snow
On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 10:55 AM Yury Selivanov wrote: > > Thank you, Guido. This is a sad day for me personally; I really hoped > you'd lead Python for a few more years. On the other hand, Python is > in good hands, you've built a large enough and diverse community > around it! +1 Thank you

Re: [python-committers] Transfer of power

2018-07-12 Thread Doug Hellmann
Excerpts from Yury Selivanov's message of 2018-07-12 13:29:21 -0400: > On Thu, Jul 12, 2018 at 12:58 PM Antoine Pitrou wrote: > > > > > > I'd like to point out that the N-virate idea doesn't handle a key issue: > > once you have a N-virate, how do you evolve its composition according to > > the