Michael Selik writes:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:13 AM Stephen J. Turnbull
> wrote:
> > That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement
> > for writing a PEP.
>
> Not for drafting, but for submitting. For my own PEP submission, I
> received the specific feedback
Chris Barker via Python-ideas writes:
> On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM James Lu wrote:
>
> > One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he
> > had to read on Python-ideas.
>
> You'd have to ask Guido directly, but I don't think so. It wasn't
> the volume, but the
Chris Barker via Python-ideas wrote:
One of the
problems with the assignment expression discussion is that it got pretty
far on python-ideas, then moved to python-dev, where is was further
discussed (and there were parallel thread on the two lists)
As long as there are two lists with similar
On 9/20/18 9:45 PM, James Lu wrote:
> One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he had to read
> on Python-ideas.
>
>> A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all.
>> And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached
>> to the message, which makes it
James Lu wrote:
I believe GitHub has direct email
capability. If you watch the repository and have email notifications on, you
can reply directly to an email and it will be sent as a reply.
Can you start a new topic of conversation by email, though?
The best solution
would to have admins
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM James Lu wrote:
> One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he had to
> read on Python-ideas.
>
You'd have to ask Guido directly, but I don't think so. It wasn't the
volume, but the nature and timing of the discussion that was so difficult.
One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he had to read on
Python-ideas.
> A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all.
> And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached
> to the message, which makes it more personal and meaningful
> than a "+1"
my closing comment on this thread : i back discourse, atwood is a nice guy,
he believes in his product. just mobile, mobile usage is a must.
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ
Mauritius
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On 9/20/18 2:04 PM, Chris Barker via Python-ideas wrote:
>
> Hmm -- I don't suppose Mailman has a way to filter out threads, does
> it? If not, maybe we could add that -- might work well in cases like this.
>
> -CHB
Mailman can filter based on regular expression on anything in the
headers of the
Mikhail V wrote:
I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so
it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want.
I hope that, if any such change is made, a forum system is
chosen that allows full participation via either email or news.
Mark E. Haase wrote:
Many e-mails to this list do
nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion.
Are there really all that many? They seem relatively rare
to me. Certainly not enough to annoy me.
--
Greg
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Mark E. Haase wrote:
I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do
nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion.
A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all.
And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached
to the message, which makes
On 9/20/2018 3:38 AM, Hans Polak wrote:
I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that the title of this
thread is "Moving to another forum". If you want to contribute Python
Ideas you *have to* subscribe to the mailing list.
Or you can point your mail/news reader to news.gmane.org and
A point here:
any proposal that is an actual proposal, rather than a idea that needs
fleshing out, can benefit from being written down in a single document.
It does NOT have to be an official PEP in order for that to happen. If you
are advocating something, then write it down, post it gitHbu or
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:24 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull <
turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote:
>
> And that's exactly what a mute on replies does. Most people will just
> give up, which is appropriate. People who have (what they think is) a
> good reason to continue can start a new thread
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:21 AM Cameron Simpson wrote:
>
> On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal wrote:
> >Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any
> >other type of discussion forum regularly.
>
> As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:25 AM Anders Hovmöller wrote:
> >>> Not for drafting, but for submitting.
> >>
> >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong.
> >
> > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the
> > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on
>>> Not for drafting, but for submitting.
>>
>> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong.
>
> I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the
> troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the
> proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..."
>
> Could
also Mr Brett, i have no way of knowing moderators, though i don't trample
here and there, mods words are sacred and apart from mods saying i'm a mod,
i can't really tell. maybe a footer saying mod or something like that
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
Mauritius
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 12:20 Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 09/18/2018 12:05 PM, Franklin? Lee wrote:
> > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote:
>
> >> Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active
> >> discussion on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:27 AM Anders Hovmöller wrote:
> >> That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement
> >> for writing a PEP.
> >
> > Not for drafting, but for submitting.
>
> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong.
I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously
it was just i like chris message v/s i like a like button
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ
Mauritius
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 18:24 Oleg Broytman, wrote:
>That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was
> just "I want my +1 button" without any
> The firehose of python-ideas is a barrier to entry to suggesting major
> changes to the language. This is a GOOD thing. Major changes need dedicated
> advocates - if they are unwilling to endure the flood of mail, they are not
> dedicated enough to the change, and that is an indication of
>> That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement
>> for writing a PEP.
>
> Not for drafting, but for submitting.
Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong.
In general pep1 is frustratingly vague. Terms like “community consensus”
without defining community or what
Chris Barker via Python-ideas writes:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote:
> > In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be
> > locked. No more posts can be added.
> Exactly -- but that means we are stopping the discussion -- but we don't
> want to stop the
> -Original Message-
> From: Hans Polak
> Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 3:38 AM
> To: Alex Walters ; python-ideas@python.org
> Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
>
>
> I don’t think its unreasonable to point out t
+1 to everything James said.
This otherwise pointless mail is further evidence he’s right.
On 20 Sep 2018, at 17:08, James Lu wrote:
>> It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with
>> "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting".
>
> Up/ down voting indicates
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:13 AM Stephen J. Turnbull
wrote:
> Michael Selik writes:
>
> > However, PEP 1 does not give instruction on how to evaluate whether
> > that discussion has been completed satisfactorily.
>
> That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement
> for
On 09/20/2018 07:48 AM, James Lu wrote:
Were there any productive parts to that conversation?
Out of 85 messages, there was 1 for sure, possibly three more.
In the 95 "Retire or reword the namesake of the Language" thread there were 2.
Obviously my opinion, but I hope everyone would agree
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:33 AM Ethan Furman wrote:
> On 09/20/2018 07:23 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote:
> > We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other.
> > Write your arguments or be silent.
>
> The number of people who have the same argument is also a factor. I would
>
> It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with
> "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting".
Up/ down voting indicates how much consensus we have among the entire
community- an expert might agree with another expert’s arguments but not have
anything else to add,
Were there any productive parts to that conversation?
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 20, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Chris Barker wrote:
>
>> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote:
>> In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No more
>> posts can be added.
>
>
On 09/20/2018 07:23 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:05:33AM -0400, Mark E. Haase wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote:
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote:
i miss a +1 button
It's absence is a big
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:05:33AM -0400, "Mark E. Haase"
wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote:
>
> > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <
> > arj.pyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > > i miss a +1 button
> >
> >It's absence is a big
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote:
> In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No
> more posts can be added.
>
Exactly -- but that means we are stopping the discussion -- but we don't
want to stop the discussion altogether, we want to have the productive
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote:
> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <
> arj.pyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
> > i miss a +1 button
>
>It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with
> "likes". We don't need a bunch of
On 18/09/18 23:37, James Lu wrote:
Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are:
* There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide to
change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you want to
find the authoritative current
it's another phrasing of +1 or i like his reply not meaning i'd like +1
buttons in mail
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
Mauritius
On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 16:09 Oleg wrote:
>
>It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with
> "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting".
>
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
wrote:
> i miss a +1 button
It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with
"likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting".
> --
> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
> https://github.com/abdur-rahmaanj
>
> Frankly, I think the bigger issue is all too human -- we get sucked in and
> participate when we really know we shouldn't (or maybe that's just me).
>
That may be why some people misbehave, but we have no way of discouraging that
misbehavior.
> And I'm having a hard time figuring out how
i miss a +1 button
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:17 PM Chris Barker via Python-ideas <
python-ideas@python.org> wrote:
>
> Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in
> any other type of discussion forum regularly.
>
> ...
> --
>
> Christopher Barker, Ph.D.
>
Michael Selik writes:
> However, PEP 1 does not give instruction on how to evaluate whether
> that discussion has been completed satisfactorily.
That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement
for writing a PEP. Writing a PEP is a lot more effort than writing an
email.
On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal wrote:
Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any
other type of discussion forum regularly.
As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic horrors
(subjective), require a visit.
Cheers,
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:05 PM, Franklin? Lee <
leewangzhong+pyt...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team,
> or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective
> enforcement.
>
Or maybe clamoring for nothing -- it's just not
I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that it’s a *mailing list*. A
firehose of email is generally a sign of good health of a mailing list. Even
so, there are mitigations to the firehose effect, including, but not limited to
digests and setting up your client to move mailing list
> Even so, there are mitigations to the firehose effect, including, but not
> limited to digests
I accidentally signed up with divest turned on for this list first. I got five
digests in so many hours and I couldn’t figure out how to respond to individual
threads. It’s a terrible choice and
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 7:49 AM Franklin? Lee
wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:21 PM James Lu wrote:
> >
> > > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where
> > > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and
> > > kept fighting.
> > Not
Just an observation. I've been a member of this mailing list since
(literally) five days ago and I am receiving a busload of emails.
I'm a member of Stackoverflow and I visit the Q site daily... and I
hardly ever receive emails.
I suspect Discourse would be a good match for these discussions
>
> Most of the real decisions are actually taken
> outside of it, with more direct channels in the small groups of
> contributors.
>
It would be very nice if there was more transparency in
this process. The language is better if more subjective
personal experience heard- but to make that happen,
Oh wow, Google Groups is actually a much better interface.
Any better forum software needs a system where people can
voluntarily leave comments or feedback that is lower-priority.
I'm not sure if Discourse has this, actually. Reddit comments
are extremely compact as are Stack Overflow comments.
Le 19/09/2018 à 15:28, Chris Angelico a écrit :
> On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:23 PM Michel Desmoulin
> wrote:
>> - A is telling B this is a bad idea. It should be easy to tell if the
>> person is experienced or not. You probably don't want to interact the
>> same way with Victor and Yury, that
Le 19/09/2018 à 00:37, James Lu a écrit :
>> Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where
>> Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and
>> kept fighting.
> Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the
> “reword or
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:37:09 -0400
James Lu wrote:
> * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and package
> maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in Python-ideas. Not
> many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list.
> * No one really promotes
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:21 PM James Lu wrote:
>
> > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where
> > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and
> > kept fighting.
> Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the
>
On 9/18/18 11:02 AM, Jonathan Goble wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde
> mailto:robertv...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> About moderation, what's the problem on the list ?
>
>
> The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability
> to lock threads and
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 8:43 PM Jan Claeys wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 18:07 -0400, David Mertz wrote:
> > Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of
> > carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than
> > email." The one thing they all have in common is
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:05 AM James Lu wrote:
>
> It would be nice if there was a guide on using Python-ideas and writing PEPs.
> It would make it less obscure.
https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0001/
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:17 AM Michael Selik wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:57
It would be nice if there was a guide on using Python-ideas and writing PEPs.
It would make it less obscure.
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Code of Conduct:
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 10:43 AM Jan Claeys wrote:
>
> On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 18:07 -0400, David Mertz wrote:
> > Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of
> > carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than
> > email." The one thing they all have in common
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 10:21 AM James Lu wrote:
>
> Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the
> “reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of Python.” The
> discussion was going in circles and evolved into attacking each other’s use
> of logical
On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 18:07 -0400, David Mertz wrote:
> Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of
> carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than
> email." The one thing they all have in common is that they are vastly
> worse than email.
I don't 100%
> Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where
> Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and
> kept fighting.
Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the
“reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of
Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of carying
on electronic conversations intended to be "better than email." The one
thing they all have in common is that they are vastly worse than email.
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 6:04 PM Jan Claeys wrote:
> On Tue, 2018-09-18 at
On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 11:02 -0400, Jonathan Goble wrote:
> The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the
> inability to lock threads
That actually wouldn't be hard to implement in a mailing list software
as a semi-automatic moderation feature...
--
Jan Claeys
> But there's no evidence that such tools would help. Software
> enforcement powers are only necessary if verbal enforcement isn't
> enough. We need the current moderators (or just Brett) to say whether
> they feel it isn't enough.
These systems work radically differently. You don’t get
On 09/18/2018 12:05 PM, Franklin? Lee wrote:
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote:
Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active
>> discussion on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might not even
>> try. Some discussions, I suspect, may have gone on
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 2:00 PM Franklin? Lee
> wrote:
>>
>> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:02 AM Jonathan Goble wrote:
>> >
>> > The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability to
>> > lock threads and delete posts
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 2:00 PM Franklin? Lee
wrote:
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:02 AM Jonathan Goble
> wrote:
> >
> > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde <
> robertv...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> About moderation, what's the problem on the list ?
> >
> >
> > The biggest
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:02 AM Jonathan Goble wrote:
>
> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde
> wrote:
>>
>> About moderation, what's the problem on the list ?
>
>
> The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability to
> lock threads and delete posts
> I propose Python register a trial of Stack Overflow Teams. Stack Overflow
Teams is essentially your own private Stack Overflow. (I will address the
private part later.) Proposals would be questions and additions or
criticism would be answers. You can express your support or dissent of a
proposal
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 04:48:18PM +0200, Robert Vanden Eynde
wrote:
> As said 100 times in the list, email is powerful, configurable but needs a
> lot of configuration (especially hard on mobile) and has a lot of rules
> (don't top post, reply to the list, don't html, wait, html is alright)
>
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde
wrote:
> About moderation, what's the problem on the list ?
>
The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability to
lock threads and delete posts (i.e. those that are spam or a Code of
Conduct violation). Both of those are
As said 100 times in the list, email is powerful, configurable but needs a
lot of configuration (especially hard on mobile) and has a lot of rules
(don't top post, reply to the list, don't html, wait, html is alright)
whereas a web based alternative is easier to grasp (more modern) but adds
more
Mike Miller writes:
> A decent mail program can thread discussions and ignore the boring
> ones.
+100, but realistically, people aren't going to change their MUAs,
especially on handhelds. The advantage of something like Discourse is
that the server side controls the UX, and that's what
On 2018-09-17 11:49, James Lu wrote:
I agree completely.
On Sep 17, 2018, at 1:16 PM, Anders Hovmöller wrote:
It’s been almost a week since this “discussion” first started. Can we please
stop this in the name of productive work on python-ideas?
A better use of time might be to discuss
On Mon., Sep. 17, 2018, 13:21 James Lu, wrote:
> How can the Zulip chat be joined? Im interested in consolidating all the
> discussion into one centralized forum.
>
No consolidation is happening yet. We're testing out mailing list
alternatives on smaller, more manageable lists first before we
On 09/17/2018 01:16 PM, James Lu wrote:
So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list?
No. None of the mailing lists will be migrated at this time. The plan is to get a test instance set up, tried for a
while on a specific issue or two, and evaluate our
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 4:16 PM James Lu wrote:
[..]
> So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list?
> Or will we only try that until Discourse works for “core sprints”?
Well, as I said: "If it works well we'll consider using it for other
discussions in the
Simply use:
https://python.zulipchat.com/login/
Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 16:20, James Lu a écrit :
> How can the Zulip chat be joined? Im interested in consolidating all the
> discussion into one centralized forum.
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 17, 2018, at 3:35 PM, Philippe Godbout wrote:
How can the Zulip chat be joined? Im interested in consolidating all the
discussion into one centralized forum.
Sent from my iPhone
> On Sep 17, 2018, at 3:35 PM, Philippe Godbout wrote:
>
> Also, by restricting to python.org email address, do we not run the risk of
> cutting off a lot of
> It was decided to try https://www.discourse.org at the core dev
> sprints. We'll likely try it for the upcoming governance model/vote
> discussions. If it works well we'll consider using it for other
> discussions in the future.
>
> Let's table this topic for now as we're unlikely to
So...
Also, by restricting to python.org email address, do we not run the risk of
cutting off a lot of would be contributor?
Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:23, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer <
arj.pyt...@gmail.com> a écrit :
> py already has a Zulip chat
>
> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
> Mauritius
>
It was decided to try https://www.discourse.org at the core dev
sprints. We'll likely try it for the upcoming governance model/vote
discussions. If it works well we'll consider using it for other
discussions in the future.
Let's table this topic for now as we're unlikely to
(a) try anything
py already has a Zulip chat
Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer
Mauritius
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