Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Michael Selik writes: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:13 AM Stephen J. Turnbull > wrote: > > That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement > > for writing a PEP. > > Not for drafting, but for submitting. For my own PEP submission, I > received the specific feedback that it needed a "proper title" before > being assigned a PEP number. What does that have to do with "completion of discussion"? I don't know what the editor told you, but in the PEP "proper title" is well- defined and not very stringent: "accurately describes the content". > My goal for submitting the draft was to receive a PEP number to > avoid the awkwardness of discussing a PEP without an obvious > title. Perhaps PEP 1 should be revised to clarify the expectations > for PEP submission. Good point. That's definitely grounds for refusing to approve the PEP, but the approval criteria are in the section "PEP Editor Responsibilities & Workflow". I'm submitting a pull request (python/peps #789 on GitHub) to also put it in the section "Submitting a PEP", under the bullet "The PEP editors review your PR for structure, formatting, and other errors." Steve ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Chris Barker via Python-ideas writes: > On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM James Lu wrote: > > > One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he > > had to read on Python-ideas. > > You'd have to ask Guido directly, but I don't think so. It wasn't > the volume, but the nature and timing of the discussion that was so > difficult. +1. I have talked to Guido about this issue, though long before his BDFL resignation, and at that time he pointed out nature and timing as his primary concern. (Antoine Pitrou has also lamented the fact that people take a post asking for help on a technical issue in an approved PR as a chance to reopen debate on the wisdom of the change.) For Guido, the "thread mute" feature of his MUA does a lot of work to mitigate volume. > Maybe we need something in-between python-idea and python-dev -- a > place to discuss "serious" proposals, where "serious" means > somewhat fleshed out, and with the support of at least a couple key > people. I'm with Greg Ewing on this: an additional list simply adds more potential for confusion and misinformation. > One of the problems with the assignment expression discussion is > that it got pretty far on python-ideas, then moved to python-dev, > where is was further discussed (and there were parallel thread on > the two lists)[.] That's a good point, one I had not noticed, and very useful to the Mailman devs. This is an excellent reason for invoking cloture on a thread. It's the only one needed on Python lists IMO -- if things get bad enough that enforced moderation, rather than a "nothing to see here, people, please move along" post, is needed, usually there's a bad actor who needs a time out. Steve ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Chris Barker via Python-ideas wrote: One of the problems with the assignment expression discussion is that it got pretty far on python-ideas, then moved to python-dev, where is was further discussed (and there were parallel thread on the two lists) As long as there are two lists with similar purposes, this sort of thing will be prone to happen -- and adding a third list can only make it worse. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On 9/20/18 9:45 PM, James Lu wrote: > One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he had to read > on Python-ideas. > >> A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all. >> And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached >> to the message, which makes it more personal and meaningful >> than a "+1" counter getting incremented somewhere. >> >> Counting only makes sense if the counts are going to be >> treated as votes, and we don't do that. > I agree. I think this is good evidence in favor of using GitHub pull requests > or GitHub issues- you can see exactly who +1’d a topic. > > GitHub also has moderation tools and the ability to delete comments that are > irrelevant, and edit comments that are disrespectful. > >> I hope that, if any such change is made, a forum system is >> chosen that allows full participation via either email or news. >> Otherwise it will probably mean the end of my participation, >> because I don't have time to chase down and wrestle with >> multiple web forums every day. > +1, everyone should be accommodated. I believe GitHub has direct email > capability. If you watch the repository and have email notifications on, you > can reply directly to an email and it will be sent as a reply. > > — > To solve the problem of tons of email for controversial decisions like :=, I > don’t think GitHub issues would actually be the solution. The best solution > would to have admins receive all the email, and broadcast a subset of the > email sent, only broadcasting new arguments and new opinions. > > Admins can do this “summary duty” every 12 hours on a rotating basis, where > each admin takes turns doing summary duty. > > This solution would mean a slower iteration time for the conversation, but it > would significantly lessen the deluge of email, and I think that would make > it more bearable for people participating in the conversation. After all, > once a proposal has been fleshed out, what kind of conversation needs more > than say 30 rounds of constructive discussion- in that case, if people reply > every 25 hours, the discussion would be done in a month. > > For transparency purposes, all of the email can be made received for approval > can be published online. Actually, since this is a Mailman list, all that needs to happen is to turn on moderation. Every message is held in the moderation queue till handled. If any of the people in charge think it is a useful message, they release it to the list. If any of the people in charge think it is a bad message, they can reject it (first to act wins). Probably need someone to periodically review the messages that have sit for a bit and make a decision on them. Some trusted people can have their moderation status removed, and what they post goes to the list immediately, and if they abuse that right, it can be taken back. -- Richard Damon ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
James Lu wrote: I believe GitHub has direct email capability. If you watch the repository and have email notifications on, you can reply directly to an email and it will be sent as a reply. Can you start a new topic of conversation by email, though? The best solution would to have admins receive all the email, and broadcast a subset of the email sent, only broadcasting new arguments and new opinions. Admins can do this “summary duty” every 12 hours on a rotating basis, where each admin takes turns doing summary duty. Even spreading the load out, it sounds like a huge amount of work. And I question the feasibility of admins deciding whether an argument is "new" or not -- that would require an encyclopaedic knowledge of all past discussions. Hard enough for one person, even harder if it's a rotating duty. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Fri, Sep 21, 2018 at 1:24 PM James Lu wrote: > One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he had to > read on Python-ideas. > You'd have to ask Guido directly, but I don't think so. It wasn't the volume, but the nature and timing of the discussion that was so difficult. It went on for a LONG time, with many, many circular arguments, and people commenting on issues that has already been brought up and maybe resolved. Then the kicker -- after a decision was made, there were very strong objections -- the whole process was rather ugly. One can certainly make a good case that a different system for having such discussion might have made it much better -- but I'm not so sure. But maybe it's a good case-study t guide a decision. Frankly, I'm more concerned about how an important technical discussion like that goes than I am about than issues like the recent "beautiful - ugly" thread. Maybe we need something in-between python-idea and python-dev -- a place to discuss "serious" proposals, where "serious" means somewhat fleshed out, and with the support of at least a couple key people. One of the problems with the assignment expression discussion is that it got pretty far on python-ideas, then moved to python-dev, where is was further discussed (and there were parallel thread on the two lists) -- but the two list have overlapping, but different members, so some folks were surprised at the outcome. -CHB -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
One of the reasons Guido left was the insane volume of emails he had to read on Python-ideas. > A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all. > And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached > to the message, which makes it more personal and meaningful > than a "+1" counter getting incremented somewhere. > > Counting only makes sense if the counts are going to be > treated as votes, and we don't do that. I agree. I think this is good evidence in favor of using GitHub pull requests or GitHub issues- you can see exactly who +1’d a topic. GitHub also has moderation tools and the ability to delete comments that are irrelevant, and edit comments that are disrespectful. > I hope that, if any such change is made, a forum system is > chosen that allows full participation via either email or news. > Otherwise it will probably mean the end of my participation, > because I don't have time to chase down and wrestle with > multiple web forums every day. +1, everyone should be accommodated. I believe GitHub has direct email capability. If you watch the repository and have email notifications on, you can reply directly to an email and it will be sent as a reply. — To solve the problem of tons of email for controversial decisions like :=, I don’t think GitHub issues would actually be the solution. The best solution would to have admins receive all the email, and broadcast a subset of the email sent, only broadcasting new arguments and new opinions. Admins can do this “summary duty” every 12 hours on a rotating basis, where each admin takes turns doing summary duty. This solution would mean a slower iteration time for the conversation, but it would significantly lessen the deluge of email, and I think that would make it more bearable for people participating in the conversation. After all, once a proposal has been fleshed out, what kind of conversation needs more than say 30 rounds of constructive discussion- in that case, if people reply every 25 hours, the discussion would be done in a month. For transparency purposes, all of the email can be made received for approval can be published online. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
my closing comment on this thread : i back discourse, atwood is a nice guy, he believes in his product. just mobile, mobile usage is a must. Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ Mauritius ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 9/20/18 2:04 PM, Chris Barker via Python-ideas wrote: > > Hmm -- I don't suppose Mailman has a way to filter out threads, does > it? If not, maybe we could add that -- might work well in cases like this. > > -CHB Mailman can filter based on regular expression on anything in the headers of the email. Filtering on Subject does a pretty good job of 'Thread' filtering You could also filter on In-Reply-To and References to get actual filtering on threads, but would need to list a lot of message-ids (especially for In-Reply-To) to block all replys to a long thread. -- Richard Damon ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Mikhail V wrote: I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want. I hope that, if any such change is made, a forum system is chosen that allows full participation via either email or news. Otherwise it will probably mean the end of my participation, because I don't have time to chase down and wrestle with multiple web forums every day. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Mark E. Haase wrote: Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion. Are there really all that many? They seem relatively rare to me. Certainly not enough to annoy me. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Mark E. Haase wrote: I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion. A tiny bit of discussion is still better than none at all. And even if there's no discussion, there's a name attached to the message, which makes it more personal and meaningful than a "+1" counter getting incremented somewhere. Counting only makes sense if the counts are going to be treated as votes, and we don't do that. -- Greg ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On 9/20/2018 3:38 AM, Hans Polak wrote: I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that the title of this thread is "Moving to another forum". If you want to contribute Python Ideas you *have to* subscribe to the mailing list. Or you can point your mail/news reader to news.gmane.org and 'subscribe' to gmane.comp.python.ideas, which keeps everything in this list in a separate folder and only downloads messages one wants to read. -- Terry Jan Reedy ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
A point here: any proposal that is an actual proposal, rather than a idea that needs fleshing out, can benefit from being written down in a single document. It does NOT have to be an official PEP in order for that to happen. If you are advocating something, then write it down, post it gitHbu or some such, and point people to it -- that's it. Using this list alone (or any forum-like system) is not a good way to work out the details of the proposal -- if you have a written out version, then folks can debate what's actually in the proposal, and not the various already discussed and rejected idea that float around in multiple discussion threads... -CHB On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 7:46 PM, Michael Selik wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:25 AM Anders Hovmöller > wrote: > > >>> Not for drafting, but for submitting. > > >> > > >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. > > > > > > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the > > > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the > > > proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..." > > > > > > Could you clarify what you think is inaccurate in the previous > statements? > > > > It later states this is just to avoid submitting bad ideas. It’s not > actually a requirement but a (supposed) kindness. > > Some regulations are de jure, others are de facto. > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 6:24 PM, Stephen J. Turnbull < turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> wrote: > > And that's exactly what a mute on replies does. Most people will just > give up, which is appropriate. People who have (what they think is) a > good reason to continue can start a new thread with a link to the old > one. Hardly a prohibitive barrier, if you're willing to risk banning. > > I think this "feature" will do what people generally think it does: > provide a strong signal to stop the discussion, and back that up with > a fail-safe (if you *do* hit reply, it won't work). > Hmm -- I don't suppose Mailman has a way to filter out threads, does it? If not, maybe we could add that -- might work well in cases like this. -CHB -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 11:21 AM Cameron Simpson wrote: > > On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal wrote: > >Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any > >other type of discussion forum regularly. > > As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic horrors > (subjective), require a visit. So you are ok with 100 emails / day, like it happened when inline assignment discussion erupted? I think there are forum systems which allow you to post by email so it is possible to get the same effect as with mailing list, if you really want. I think most people want the ability to choose what topic they want to receive notification and its not possible. As for ergonomics - it depends on forum software and design. If I use some site frequently and it has bad layout/colors/fonts, then I use Stylish plugin to customize the CSS. Therefore I'd prefer forum with minimalistic CSS to easily customize the look. OTOH if the mailing software has bad ergonomics, I can't do much with that. Or if people post a word and leave 5 pages quote below or messed up formatting - I can't do anything with that. On a good forum systems such things are less probable = less annoyance in general. I see 2 major problems: 1. The mentioned mass mail delivery 2. PEPs and discussion browsing is far from effective - I'd like a better way to browse PEPs - for example filtering by topics, eg. "syntax", "module X", by their status, etc, and of course discoverable relevant discussion. Systems used in Stackoverflow, Github already offer these features. I personally would like Stackoverflow-like format for presenting PEPs + discussion below, so everybody can easily browse PEPs and related info in one place. Mikhail ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:25 AM Anders Hovmöller wrote: > >>> Not for drafting, but for submitting. > >> > >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. > > > > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the > > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the > > proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..." > > > > Could you clarify what you think is inaccurate in the previous statements? > > It later states this is just to avoid submitting bad ideas. It’s not actually > a requirement but a (supposed) kindness. Some regulations are de jure, others are de facto. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
>>> Not for drafting, but for submitting. >> >> Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. > > I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the > troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the > proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..." > > Could you clarify what you think is inaccurate in the previous statements? It later states this is just to avoid submitting bad ideas. It’s not actually a requirement but a (supposed) kindness. / Anders ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
also Mr Brett, i have no way of knowing moderators, though i don't trample here and there, mods words are sacred and apart from mods saying i'm a mod, i can't really tell. maybe a footer saying mod or something like that Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 at 12:20 Ethan Furman wrote: > On 09/18/2018 12:05 PM, Franklin? Lee wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote: > > >> Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active > >> discussion on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might not even > >> try. Some discussions, I suspect, may have gone on in circles long past > >> the point where they would have been locked on a forum. With forum > >> software, it becomes much easier, and would be a more effective tool to > >> terminate discussions that are going nowhere fast and wasting > everyone's > >> time. > > True. > > > But there's no evidence that such tools would help. Software > > enforcement powers are only necessary if verbal enforcement isn't > > enough. We need the current moderators (or just Brett) to say whether > > they feel it isn't enough. > > It isn't enough. > Ethan's correct, it isn't enough. The past two weeks have been pretty horrible for me as an admin and Titus and I need to find a solution to keep this place sustainable long-term, otherwise I'm liable to burn out from running this list (and before anyone says it, more admins will not help as we have already tried that in the past). > > > What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, > > or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective > > enforcement. > > More ineffective enforcement will be, um, ineffective. > > Let's have a test. I'm a moderator (from -List). We're* working on > avenues to improve the mailing tools and > simultaneously testing other options. I'm not seeing anything new in this > thread that will impact that one way or > another, so I'm asking for all of us to move on to other topics. > What Ethan said. :) I'm now muting this thread as it has already become a subjective debate of the value of email versus not which doesn't help me as no one has come forward with anything I didn't already know, and this is all before we have even had a chance to start an evaluation of alternatives (IOW there's nothing for anyone on either side of this debate to actually debate about when it comes to this mailing list yet :) . ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 9:27 AM Anders Hovmöller wrote: > >> That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement > >> for writing a PEP. > > > > Not for drafting, but for submitting. > > Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. I can't remember if I pulled this quote previously (that's one of the troubles with emails): "Following a discussion on python-ideas, the proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP ..." Could you clarify what you think is inaccurate in the previous statements? ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
it was just i like chris message v/s i like a like button Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/Abdur-rahmaanJ Mauritius On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 18:24 Oleg Broytman, wrote: >That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was > just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much > better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! > >We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. > Write your arguments or be silent. > > Oleg. > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
> The firehose of python-ideas is a barrier to entry to suggesting major > changes to the language. This is a GOOD thing. Major changes need dedicated > advocates - if they are unwilling to endure the flood of mail, they are not > dedicated enough to the change, and that is an indication of how much they > will contribute to actually bring that fruition. They need a thick skin, > since the idea will be folded, spindled and mutilated, usually reducing the > change proposed to a single actionable item. This is what makes python a > good language - the road to changing it is incredibly tough. We should not > want to make it easier. > > The firehose is a virtue for this list. You’re conflating two things here: 1. Volume of mails (which is irrelevant for people who have a more advanced mail workflow anyway as has been pointed out as an argument against the very idea that is a firehouse at all) 2. People being... let’s be nice and say.. brutally honest and change averse. Point 2 has no connection to the technology afaik. And point 1 is weak at best. / Anders ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
>> That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement >> for writing a PEP. > > Not for drafting, but for submitting. Can you quote pep1? I think you’re wrong. In general pep1 is frustratingly vague. Terms like “community consensus” without defining community or what numbers would constitute a consensus are not fun to read as someone who doesn’t personally know anyone of the core devs. Further references to Guido are even more frustrating now that he’s bowed out. / Anders ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Chris Barker via Python-ideas writes: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote: > > In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be > > locked. No more posts can be added. > Exactly -- but that means we are stopping the discussion -- but we don't > want to stop the discussion altogether, And that's exactly what a mute on replies does. Most people will just give up, which is appropriate. People who have (what they think is) a good reason to continue can start a new thread with a link to the old one. Hardly a prohibitive barrier, if you're willing to risk banning. I think this "feature" will do what people generally think it does: provide a strong signal to stop the discussion, and back that up with a fail-safe (if you *do* hit reply, it won't work). Footnotes: [1] Something rather unlikely to happen for many many months, even if the core decides to support it. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
> -Original Message- > From: Hans Polak > Sent: Thursday, September 20, 2018 3:38 AM > To: Alex Walters ; python-ideas@python.org > Subject: Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where > > > I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that it’s a *mailing list*. > A > firehose of email is generally a sign of good health of a mailing list. Even > so, > there are mitigations to the firehose effect, including, but not limited to > digests and setting up your client to move mailing list posts directly to a > folder > (including the trash for threads you don’t want to follow). I don't > understand > how one can sign up for a mass email discussion forum, and be surprised that > it increased the amount of email they receive. It's kind of the point of the > medium. > > > Right you are, Alex. > > I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that the title of this thread is > "Moving to another forum". If you want to contribute Python Ideas you have > to subscribe to the mailing list. > I have zero sympathy for this position. First, you only need to join the list to propose major changes - everything other type of contribution can be done off list. Fixing bugs never touches a list at all unless you need to discuss backwards incompatible changes, at which point it goes to the lower volume python-dev list. Documentation changes are done on the tracker, and trivial changes are done in pull requests. The firehose of python-ideas is a barrier to entry to suggesting major changes to the language. This is a GOOD thing. Major changes need dedicated advocates - if they are unwilling to endure the flood of mail, they are not dedicated enough to the change, and that is an indication of how much they will contribute to actually bring that fruition. They need a thick skin, since the idea will be folded, spindled and mutilated, usually reducing the change proposed to a single actionable item. This is what makes python a good language - the road to changing it is incredibly tough. We should not want to make it easier. The firehose is a virtue for this list. > Let me just say that I second the idea of moving to another forum. > > I already move most mail automatically to the trash folder and read it there > before eliminating it. My inbox contains exactly four emails at the moment, > FYI. > > Cheers, > Hans ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
+1 to everything James said. This otherwise pointless mail is further evidence he’s right. On 20 Sep 2018, at 17:08, James Lu wrote: >> It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with >> "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting". > > Up/ down voting indicates how much consensus we have among the entire > community- an expert might agree with another expert’s arguments but not have > anything else to add, and an outsider might agree with the scenario an expert > presents without having much more to add. Granular up/down votes are useful. > >> Believe it or not, I like the fact that you can't just edit posts. I've >> lost count of the number of forum threads I've been on where comments to >> the initial post make *no sense* because that initial post is nothing >> like it was to start with. > > There is version history. Not all of us have the time to read through every > single post beforehand to get the current state of discussion. > > Hmm, what if we used GitHub as a discussion forum? You’d make a pull request > with an informal proposal to a repository. Then people can comment on lines > in the diff and reply to each other there. The OP can update their branch to > change their proposal- expired/stale comments on old diffs are automatically > hidden. > > You can also create a competing proposal by forming from the OP’s branch and > sending a new PR. > >> Just editing your post and expecting people to notice >> is not going to cut it. > > You would ping someone after editing the post. > >> Approximately none of this has anything to do with the medium. If the >> mailing list is obscure (and personally I don't think it is), it just >> needs better advertising. A poorly advertised forum is equally >> undiscoverable. > > It does have to do with the medium. First, people aren’t used to mailing > lists- but that’s not what’s important here. If the PSF advertised for people > to sign up over say twitter, then we’d get even more email. More +1 and more > -1. Most of us don’t want more mailing list volume. > > The fact that you can’t easily find an overview people will post arguments > that have already been made if they don’t have the extreme patience to read > all that has been said before. > > For the rest of your comments, I advise you to read the earlier discussion > that other people had in response to my email. > >> That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was >> just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much >> better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! >> >> We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. >> Write your arguments or be silent. > > Please respond to the actual arguments in both of the two emails that have > arguments in support of +1/-1. > > +1/-1 reflects which usage scenarios people find valuable, since Python > features sometimes do benefit one group at the detriment to another. Or use > syntax/behavior for one thing that could be used for another thing, and some > programming styles of python use cases would prefer one kind of that > syntax/behavior. > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 2:13 AM Stephen J. Turnbull wrote: > Michael Selik writes: > > > However, PEP 1 does not give instruction on how to evaluate whether > > that discussion has been completed satisfactorily. > > That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement > for writing a PEP. Not for drafting, but for submitting. For my own PEP submission, I received the specific feedback that it needed a "proper title" before being assigned a PEP number. My goal for submitting the draft was to receive a PEP number to avoid the awkwardness of discussing a PEP without an obvious title. Perhaps PEP 1 should be revised to clarify the expectations for PEP submission. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 09/20/2018 07:48 AM, James Lu wrote: Were there any productive parts to that conversation? Out of 85 messages, there was 1 for sure, possibly three more. In the 95 "Retire or reword the namesake of the Language" thread there were 2. Obviously my opinion, but I hope everyone would agree that the signal-to-noise ratio of those two threads was low. -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 10:33 AM Ethan Furman wrote: > On 09/20/2018 07:23 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote: > > We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. > > Write your arguments or be silent. > > The number of people who have the same argument is also a factor. I would > rather have the argument once with 15 +1s > than 16 posts all saying the same thing. A "like" on an argument means "I > agree" -- which is valuable information to have. +1 ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
> It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with > "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting". Up/ down voting indicates how much consensus we have among the entire community- an expert might agree with another expert’s arguments but not have anything else to add, and an outsider might agree with the scenario an expert presents without having much more to add. Granular up/down votes are useful. > Believe it or not, I like the fact that you can't just edit posts. I've > lost count of the number of forum threads I've been on where comments to > the initial post make *no sense* because that initial post is nothing > like it was to start with. There is version history. Not all of us have the time to read through every single post beforehand to get the current state of discussion. Hmm, what if we used GitHub as a discussion forum? You’d make a pull request with an informal proposal to a repository. Then people can comment on lines in the diff and reply to each other there. The OP can update their branch to change their proposal- expired/stale comments on old diffs are automatically hidden. You can also create a competing proposal by forming from the OP’s branch and sending a new PR. > Just editing your post and expecting people to notice > is not going to cut it. You would ping someone after editing the post. > Approximately none of this has anything to do with the medium. If the > mailing list is obscure (and personally I don't think it is), it just > needs better advertising. A poorly advertised forum is equally > undiscoverable. It does have to do with the medium. First, people aren’t used to mailing lists- but that’s not what’s important here. If the PSF advertised for people to sign up over say twitter, then we’d get even more email. More +1 and more -1. Most of us don’t want more mailing list volume. The fact that you can’t easily find an overview people will post arguments that have already been made if they don’t have the extreme patience to read all that has been said before. For the rest of your comments, I advise you to read the earlier discussion that other people had in response to my email. > That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was > just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much > better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! > > We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. > Write your arguments or be silent. Please respond to the actual arguments in both of the two emails that have arguments in support of +1/-1. +1/-1 reflects which usage scenarios people find valuable, since Python features sometimes do benefit one group at the detriment to another. Or use syntax/behavior for one thing that could be used for another thing, and some programming styles of python use cases would prefer one kind of that syntax/behavior. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Were there any productive parts to that conversation? Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 20, 2018, at 9:47 AM, Chris Barker wrote: > >> On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote: >> In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No more >> posts can be added. > > Exactly -- but that means we are stopping the discussion -- but we don't want > to stop the discussion altogether, we want to have the productive parts of > the discussion, without the non-productive parts -- not sure there is any > technical solution to that problem. > > - CHB > > -- > > Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > Oceanographer > > Emergency Response Division > NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959 voice > 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax > Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception > > chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 09/20/2018 07:23 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:05:33AM -0400, Mark E. Haase wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote: On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: i miss a +1 button It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting" It's difficult to keep track of all these disparate, unstructured votes There is no need to track them. GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons GitHub is a social network so it's natural for them to add "likes". (If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this response.) That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. Write your arguments or be silent. The number of people who have the same argument is also a factor. I would rather have the argument once with 15 +1s than 16 posts all saying the same thing. A "like" on an argument means "I agree" -- which is valuable information to have. -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 09:05:33AM -0400, "Mark E. Haase" wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote: > > > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer < > > arj.pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > > i miss a +1 button > > > >It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with > > "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting" > > It's difficult to > keep track of all these disparate, unstructured votes There is no need to track them. > GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons GitHub is a social network so it's natural for them to add "likes". > (If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this > response.) That message was rather bad in my not so humble opinion -- it was just "I want my +1 button" without any argument. Your message is much better as it have arguments. See, the absence of the button work! We're proposing and *discussing* things here not "likes" each other. Write your arguments or be silent. Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttps://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 1:39 PM, James Lu wrote: > In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No > more posts can be added. > Exactly -- but that means we are stopping the discussion -- but we don't want to stop the discussion altogether, we want to have the productive parts of the discussion, without the non-productive parts -- not sure there is any technical solution to that problem. - CHB -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 8:09 AM Oleg Broytman wrote: > On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer < > arj.pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > i miss a +1 button > >It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with > "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting" I would also appreciate a +1 button. Many e-mails to this list do nothing more than say +1 or -1 without much added discussion. It's difficult to keep track of all these disparate, unstructured votes in threads that contain a hundred e-mails and spin off into subthreads. There are also a lot of lurkers who don't want to gum up inboxes with +1's and -1's, so responses are naturally biased towards the more opinionated and active users of the list. GitHub added +1 and -1 buttons for exactly this reason: to reduce needless comment on Issues and Pull Requests. (If I could have +1'ed Abdur-Rahmaan's e-mail, I wouldn't have written this response.) ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On 18/09/18 23:37, James Lu wrote: Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are: * There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide to change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you want to find the authoritative current copy, since you might’ve forgotten or you want to join he current discussion, then you have to dig through the emails and recursively apply the proposed change. It’s just easier if people can have one proposal they can edit themselves. Believe it or not, I like the fact that you can't just edit posts. I've lost count of the number of forum threads I've been on where comments to the initial post make *no sense* because that initial post is nothing like it was to start with. (Also it makes it easier to quote people back at themselves :-) * I’ve seen experienced people get confused about what was the current proposal because they were replying to older emails or they didn’t see the email with the clear examples. As you said yourself, "you have to communicate the change." Even in a forum or similar. Just editing your post and expecting people to notice is not going to cut it. And yes, there is a danger that even experienced people will get confused about what is being proposed right now, but I've seen that happen on forums too. The lack of threading tends to help with that, but on the other hand it stifles breadth of debate. * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and package maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in Python-ideas. Not many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list. * No one really promotes the mailing list, you have to go out of your way to find where new features are proposed. * Higher discoverability means more people can participate, providing their own use cases or voting (I mean using like or dislike measures, consensus should still be how things are approved) go out of their way to find so they can propose something. Instead, I envision a forum where people can read and give their 2 cents about what features they might like to see or might not want to see. -1. (I'm British, I'm allowed to be ironic.) Approximately none of this has anything to do with the medium. If the mailing list is obscure (and personally I don't think it is), it just needs better advertising. A poorly advertised forum is equally undiscoverable. * More people means instead of having to make decisions from sometimes subjective personal experience, we can make decisions with confidence in what other Python devs want. Um. Have you read this list? Mostly we can make decisions with confidence that people disagree vigorously about what they as Python devs want. Besides, I've never met a mailing list, forum or any group of more than about twelve people that could make decisions in a timely manner (or at all in some cases), and I've been a member of a few that were supposed to. Eventually some*one* has to decide to do or allow something, traditionally the BDFL. Since potential proposers will find it easier to navigate a GUI forum, they can read previous discussions to understand the reasoning, precedent behind rejected and successful features. People proposing things that have already been rejected before can be directed to open a subtopic on the older discussion. Your faith in graphical interfaces is touching, but I've seen some stinkers. It is no easier to go through the average forum's thousands of prior discussions looking for the topic you are interested in than it is to go through the mailing list archive (and frankly googling is your best bet for both). People don't always do it here, but they don't always do it on any of the forums I'm on either, and resurrecting a moribund thread is no different to resurrecting a moribund topic. -- Rhodri James *-* Kynesim Ltd ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
it's another phrasing of +1 or i like his reply not meaning i'd like +1 buttons in mail Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius On Thu, 20 Sep 2018, 16:09 Oleg wrote: > >It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with > "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting". > > > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 01:46:10PM +0400, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > i miss a +1 button It's absence is a big advantage. We're not a social network with "likes". We don't need a bunch of argumentless "voting". > -- > Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > https://github.com/abdur-rahmaanj > Mauritius Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttps://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
> Frankly, I think the bigger issue is all too human -- we get sucked in and > participate when we really know we shouldn't (or maybe that's just me). > That may be why some people misbehave, but we have no way of discouraging that misbehavior. > And I'm having a hard time figuring out how moderation would actually > result in the "good" discussion we really want in an example like the > "beautiful is better than ugly" issue, without someone trusted individual > approving every single post -- I don't imagine anyone wants to do that. In a forum, the beautiful is better than ugly issue would be locked. No more posts can be added. If someone wants to discuss another proposal branching off of the original discussion, they can start a new thread. If they just want to lampoon, we can courteously ask them to 1) take it elsewhere or 2) move the post to a “malarkey” section of the forum where people don’t get notified. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
i miss a +1 button On Thu, Sep 20, 2018 at 12:17 PM Chris Barker via Python-ideas < python-ideas@python.org> wrote: > > Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in > any other type of discussion forum regularly. > > ... > -- > > Christopher Barker, Ph.D. > Oceanographer > -- Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer https://github.com/abdur-rahmaanj Mauritius ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Michael Selik writes: > However, PEP 1 does not give instruction on how to evaluate whether > that discussion has been completed satisfactorily. That's because completion of discussion has never been a requirement for writing a PEP. Writing a PEP is a lot more effort than writing an email. The purposes of initiating discussions are 1. Avoid duplication. Nobody has encyclopedic knowledge of the hundreds of PEPs anymore, but the lists do. 2. Gauge feasibility of the proposal. Some are non-starters for reasons of "Pythonicity", others are extremely difficult to implement given Python internals or constraints like LL(1) syntax in the parser. 3. Gauge interest in the content of the proposal. If the protagonists think it's worth it after that, they write a PEP. Typically the discussion continues on list during the drafting. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 20Sep2018 10:16, Chris Barker - NOAA Federal wrote: Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any other type of discussion forum regularly. As do I. Email comes to me. Forums, leaving aside their ergonomic horrors (subjective), require a visit. Cheers, Cameron Simpson ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 9:05 PM, Franklin? Lee < leewangzhong+pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > > What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, > or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective > enforcement. > Or maybe clamoring for nothing -- it's just not that hard to ignore a thread Frankly, I think the bigger issue is all too human -- we get sucked in and participate when we really know we shouldn't (or maybe that's just me). And I'm having a hard time figuring out how moderation would actually result in the "good" discussion we really want in an example like the "beautiful is better than ugly" issue, without someone trusted individual approving every single post -- I don't imagine anyone wants to do that. Let's just keep it on email -- I, at least, find i never participate in any other type of discussion forum regularly. -CHB > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > -- Christopher Barker, Ph.D. Oceanographer Emergency Response Division NOAA/NOS/OR(206) 526-6959 voice 7600 Sand Point Way NE (206) 526-6329 fax Seattle, WA 98115 (206) 526-6317 main reception chris.bar...@noaa.gov ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that it’s a *mailing list*. A firehose of email is generally a sign of good health of a mailing list. Even so, there are mitigations to the firehose effect, including, but not limited to digests and setting up your client to move mailing list posts directly to a folder (including the trash for threads you don’t want to follow). I don't understand how one can sign up for a mass email discussion forum, and be surprised that it increased the amount of email they receive. It's kind of the point of the medium. Right you are, Alex. I don’t think its unreasonable to point out that the title of this thread is "Moving to another forum". If you want to contribute Python Ideas you *have to* subscribe to the mailing list. Let me just say that I second the idea of moving to another forum. I already move most mail automatically to the trash folder and read it there before eliminating it. My inbox contains exactly four emails at the moment, FYI. Cheers, Hans ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
> Even so, there are mitigations to the firehose effect, including, but not > limited to digests I accidentally signed up with divest turned on for this list first. I got five digests in so many hours and I couldn’t figure out how to respond to individual threads. It’s a terrible choice and I personally would recommend removing the option because it seems broken or at least unusable. / Anders ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 7:49 AM Franklin? Lee wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:21 PM James Lu wrote: > > > > > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where > > > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and > > > kept fighting. > > Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the > > “reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of Python.” The > > discussion was going in circles and evolved into attacking each other’s use > > of logical fallacies. > > > Multiple people *without any authority in that forum* tried to stop a > discussion, and failed. Why would it be any different if it happened > in a forum? Those same people still wouldn't have the power to lock > the discussion. They could only try to convince others to stop. It would be different because some people use private mail addresses, and might not be very happy to start the day by seeing political/personal/meta/uninteresting/etc. discussions in mailbox. This aspect alone would make _any_ forum-like approach far better than mailing list. Mikhail ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Just an observation. I've been a member of this mailing list since (literally) five days ago and I am receiving a busload of emails. I'm a member of Stackoverflow and I visit the Q site daily... and I hardly ever receive emails. I suspect Discourse would be a good match for these discussions (although I have no experience whatsoever with it). TL;DR; I would appreciate receiving less mail. Cheers, Hans ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
> > Most of the real decisions are actually taken > outside of it, with more direct channels in the small groups of > contributors. > It would be very nice if there was more transparency in this process. The language is better if more subjective personal experience heard- but to make that happen, the forum experience must be better for both On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 8:21:46 PM UTC-4, James Lu wrote: > > > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where > > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and > > kept fighting. > Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the > “reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of Python.” The > discussion was going in circles and evolved into attacking each other’s use > of logical fallacies. > > Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are: > > * There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide to > change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you want > to find the authoritative current copy, since you might’ve forgotten or you > want to join he current discussion, then you have to dig through the > emails and recursively apply the proposed change. It’s just easier if > people can have one proposal they can edit themselves. > * I’ve seen experienced people get confused about what was the current > proposal because they were replying to older emails or they didn’t see the > email with the clear examples. > * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and > package maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in > Python-ideas. Not many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list. > * No one really promotes the mailing list, you have to go out of your > way to find where new features are proposed. > * Higher discoverability means more people can participate, providing > their own use cases or voting (I mean using like or dislike measures, > consensus should still be how things are approved) go out of their way to > find so they can propose something. Instead, I envision a forum where > people can read and give their 2 cents about what features they might like > to see or might not want to see. >* More people means instead of having to make decisions from sometimes > subjective personal experience, we can make decisions with confidence in > what other Python devs want. > > Since potential proposers will find it easier to navigate a GUI forum, > they can read previous discussions to understand the reasoning, precedent > behind rejected and successful features. People proposing things that have > already been rejected before can be directed to open a subtopic on the > older discussion. > > > On Sep 18, 2018, at 3:19 PM, python-ideas-requ...@python.org wrote: > > > > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where > > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and > > kept fighting. > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > >___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Oh wow, Google Groups is actually a much better interface. Any better forum software needs a system where people can voluntarily leave comments or feedback that is lower-priority. I'm not sure if Discourse has this, actually. Reddit comments are extremely compact as are Stack Overflow comments. I was going to propose that the PSF twitter account post a link to https://groups.google.com/forum/#!topic/python-ideas/, but I was worried that getting more subjective personal experiences might undesirably decrease the signal-to-noise ratio. On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 12:48 AM Franklin? Lee < leewangzhong+pyt...@gmail.com> wrote: > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:21 PM James Lu wrote: > > > > > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where > > > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and > > > kept fighting. > > Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop > the “reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of Python.” The > discussion was going in circles and evolved into attacking each other’s use > of logical fallacies. > > I disagree with your description, of course, but that's not important > right now. > > Multiple people *without any authority in that forum* tried to stop a > discussion, and failed. Why would it be any different if it happened > in a forum? Those same people still wouldn't have the power to lock > the discussion. They could only try to convince others to stop. > > If the ones with authority wanted to completely shut down the > discussion, they can do so now. The only thing that a forum adds is, > when they say stop, no one can decide to ignore them. If no one is > ignoring them now, then locking powers don't add anything. > > > Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are: > > > > * There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide > to change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you > want to find the authoritative current copy, since you might’ve forgotten > or you want to join he current discussion, then you have to dig through > the emails and recursively apply the proposed change. It’s just easier if > people can have one proposal they can edit themselves. > > * I’ve seen experienced people get confused about what was the current > proposal because they were replying to older emails or they didn’t see the > email with the clear examples. > > I agree that editing is a very useful feature. In a large discussion, > newcomers can comment after reading only the first few posts, and if > the first post has an easily-misunderstood line, you'll get people > talking about it. > > For proposals, I'm concerned that many forums don't have version > history in their editing tools (Reddit being one such discussion > site). Version history can be useful in understanding old comments. > Instead, you'd have to put it up on a repo and link to it. Editing > will help when you realize you should move your proposal to a public > repo. > > > * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and > package maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in > Python-ideas. Not many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list. > > * No one really promotes the mailing list, you have to go out of your > way to find where new features are proposed. > > * Higher discoverability means more people can participate, providing > their own use cases or voting (I mean using like or dislike measures, > consensus should still be how things are approved) go out of their way to > find so they can propose something. Instead, I envision a forum where > people can read and give their 2 cents about what features they might like > to see or might not want to see. > > Some of these problems are not about mailing lists. > > Whether a forum is more accessible can go either way. A mailing list > is more accessible because everyone has access to email, and it > doesn't require making another account. It is less accessible because > people might get intimidated by such old interfaces or culture (like > proper quoting etiquette, or when to switch to private replies). > Setting up an email interface to a forum can be a compromise. > > >* More people means instead of having to make decisions from > sometimes subjective personal experience, we can make decisions with > confidence in what other Python devs want. > > I don't agree. You don't get more objective by getting a larger > self-selected sample, not without carefully designing who will > self-select. > > But getting more people means getting MORE subjective personal > experiences, which is good. Some proposals need more voices, like any > proposal that is meant to help new programmers. You want to hear from > people who still vividly remember their experiences learning Python. > > On the other hand, getting more people necessarily means more noise > (no matter what system you use), and less time for
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Le 19/09/2018 à 15:28, Chris Angelico a écrit : > On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:23 PM Michel Desmoulin > wrote: >> - A is telling B this is a bad idea. It should be easy to tell if the >> person is experienced or not. You probably don't want to interact the >> same way with Victor and Yury, that have done numerous contributions to >> the Python core, and me, that is just a regular Python dev and don't >> know how the implementation work. > > Hmm, I'm not sure about this. Shouldn't a person's arguments be > assessed on their own merit, rather than "oh, so-and-so said it so it > must be right"? "Merit" is something hard to evaluate, having context help. If somebody comes and says "this is hard to implement so I doubt it will pass", Tim Peters does know better than the average Joe. If somebody says, "I advise you to do things the other way around, it works better on this mailing list". You will consider the advice more strongly if the author has been on the list 10 years or 10 days. Above all, if 2 people have opposite views, and that they both make sense, having the context of who they are helping. It's the same has if somebody gives you health advice. You do want to listen to everybody, but it's nice to know who is a doctor, and who is a somebody who repeats Facebook posts. It helps to decide. > > But if you want to research the people who are posting, you're welcome > to do that. The list of core dev experts is on the devguide: > > https://devguide.python.org/experts/ > > Translating those usernames back into real names would be done via BPO, I > think. This is a good summary of the problem with the list: you can do anything you want, but it cost you time and effort. And since you have many things to do, cumulatively, it's a lot of time and effort. I read all the posts and answered 2 mails on the list today. It took me 40 minutes. And I have been on the list for a long time so I know how the whole thing works so I'm pretty fast at doing this. Who can spend a lot of time every day, and yet feels to be just barely part of the discussion ? Who will take the time to do things right ? And among those few people, couldn't they do more good things if we'd save them time and energy ? Let's make the tool work for the community, and not against it. I agree that the mailing list is a great format for things like Python-dev. However, it's not a good fit for Python-idea: we have reached the limit of it for a long time. Most of the real decisions are actually taken outside of it, with more direct channels in the small groups of contributors. It slows down the decision process and it waste a lot of good will. > > ChrisA > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
Le 19/09/2018 à 00:37, James Lu a écrit : >> Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where >> Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and >> kept fighting. > Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the > “reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of Python.” The > discussion was going in circles and evolved into attacking each other’s use > of logical fallacies. > > Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are: > > * There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide to > change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you want > to find the authoritative current copy, since you might’ve forgotten or you > want to join he current discussion, then you have to dig through the emails > and recursively apply the proposed change. It’s just easier if people can > have one proposal they can edit themselves. > * I’ve seen experienced people get confused about what was the current > proposal because they were replying to older emails or they didn’t see the > email with the clear examples. > * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and package > maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in Python-ideas. Not > many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list. > * No one really promotes the mailing list, you have to go out of your way > to find where new features are proposed. > * Higher discoverability means more people can participate, providing their > own use cases or voting (I mean using like or dislike measures, consensus > should still be how things are approved) go out of their way to find so they > can propose something. Instead, I envision a forum where people can read and > give their 2 cents about what features they might like to see or might not > want to see. >* More people means instead of having to make decisions from sometimes > subjective personal experience, we can make decisions with confidence in what > other Python devs want. > > Since potential proposers will find it easier to navigate a GUI forum, they > can read previous discussions to understand the reasoning, precedent behind > rejected and successful features. People proposing things that have already > been rejected before can be directed to open a subtopic on the older > discussion. +1 except for visibility I have been on this list for years and those issues have been a big problem ever since. But I agree with Antoine, quantity is not the problem. Quality is. However having no way to moderate efficiently means nobody does it, which means quality goes down. Since you have no way to identify who is who anyway, you can't know if the person telling you that you are out of line is an experienced member of the community or a newcomer with a lot of energy. Another things is that we keep having the same debates over and over. If you had the same duplication in code, it would never pass code reviews. The problem is looking up something, or making a reference to something is really hard on the list. A few scenario that seem important to me that are badly handled by this tool: - Person A is making a long constructive argument, and person B arrives, doesn't read anything, and make arguments against things that have been answered. It should be easy for somebody to link to the answers to this. - Somebody is making a proposal that has been already discussed and rejected several times. It should be easy to link to the discussions and conclusions about this. Even if the goal is to start the debate over again, at least we start ahead. - A is telling B this is a bad idea. It should be easy to tell if the person is experienced or not. You probably don't want to interact the same way with Victor and Yury, that have done numerous contributions to the Python core, and me, that is just a regular Python dev and don't know how the implementation work. - somebody wants to make a proposal. It should be easy to search if similar proposals already have been made, and read __ a summary __ of what happened. The bar to write a PEP is to high to serve that purpose: most proposal don't ever leave the list. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Tue, 18 Sep 2018 18:37:09 -0400 James Lu wrote: > * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and package > maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in Python-ideas. Not > many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list. > * No one really promotes the mailing list, you have to go out of your way > to find where new features are proposed. > * Higher discoverability means more people can participate, providing their > own use cases or voting (I mean using like or dislike measures, consensus > should still be how things are approved) go out of their way to find so they > can propose something. Instead, I envision a forum where people can read and > give their 2 cents about what features they might like to see or might not > want to see. I'm not sure that's a popular opinion, but I don't think I want more people around on python-ideas. There's enough quantity here. The problem is quality. Regards Antoine. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 8:21 PM James Lu wrote: > > > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where > > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and > > kept fighting. > Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the > “reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of Python.” The > discussion was going in circles and evolved into attacking each other’s use > of logical fallacies. I disagree with your description, of course, but that's not important right now. Multiple people *without any authority in that forum* tried to stop a discussion, and failed. Why would it be any different if it happened in a forum? Those same people still wouldn't have the power to lock the discussion. They could only try to convince others to stop. If the ones with authority wanted to completely shut down the discussion, they can do so now. The only thing that a forum adds is, when they say stop, no one can decide to ignore them. If no one is ignoring them now, then locking powers don't add anything. > Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are: > > * There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide to > change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you want > to find the authoritative current copy, since you might’ve forgotten or you > want to join he current discussion, then you have to dig through the emails > and recursively apply the proposed change. It’s just easier if people can > have one proposal they can edit themselves. > * I’ve seen experienced people get confused about what was the current > proposal because they were replying to older emails or they didn’t see the > email with the clear examples. I agree that editing is a very useful feature. In a large discussion, newcomers can comment after reading only the first few posts, and if the first post has an easily-misunderstood line, you'll get people talking about it. For proposals, I'm concerned that many forums don't have version history in their editing tools (Reddit being one such discussion site). Version history can be useful in understanding old comments. Instead, you'd have to put it up on a repo and link to it. Editing will help when you realize you should move your proposal to a public repo. > * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and package > maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in Python-ideas. Not > many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list. > * No one really promotes the mailing list, you have to go out of your way > to find where new features are proposed. > * Higher discoverability means more people can participate, providing their > own use cases or voting (I mean using like or dislike measures, consensus > should still be how things are approved) go out of their way to find so they > can propose something. Instead, I envision a forum where people can read and > give their 2 cents about what features they might like to see or might not > want to see. Some of these problems are not about mailing lists. Whether a forum is more accessible can go either way. A mailing list is more accessible because everyone has access to email, and it doesn't require making another account. It is less accessible because people might get intimidated by such old interfaces or culture (like proper quoting etiquette, or when to switch to private replies). Setting up an email interface to a forum can be a compromise. >* More people means instead of having to make decisions from sometimes > subjective personal experience, we can make decisions with confidence in what > other Python devs want. I don't agree. You don't get more objective by getting a larger self-selected sample, not without carefully designing who will self-select. But getting more people means getting MORE subjective personal experiences, which is good. Some proposals need more voices, like any proposal that is meant to help new programmers. You want to hear from people who still vividly remember their experiences learning Python. On the other hand, getting more people necessarily means more noise (no matter what system you use), and less time for new people to acclimate. > Since potential proposers will find it easier to navigate a GUI forum, they > can read previous discussions to understand the reasoning, precedent behind > rejected and successful features. People proposing things that have already > been rejected before can be directed to open a subtopic on the older > discussion. A kind of GUI version already exists, precisely because this is a public mailing list. Google Groups provides a mirror of the archives. https://groups.google.com/forum/#!forum/python-ideas It's searchable, and possibly replyable. You can even star conversations (but not hide them). If it isn't listed on some python.org page, maybe it should be. Personally, when I want to
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 9/18/18 11:02 AM, Jonathan Goble wrote: > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde > mailto:robertv...@gmail.com>> wrote: > > About moderation, what's the problem on the list ? > > > The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability > to lock threads and delete posts (i.e. those that are spam or a Code > of Conduct violation). Both of those are basic features that are core > to virtually every forum system in existence today. > > Mailing lists offer no moderation of posts or threads unless every > post is held in a moderation queue and manually approved before being > sent, which isn't practical for large high-traffic lists like this. > Instead, the only recourse is to moderate the user by banning or > muting them, which can sometimes result in essentially using a > sledgehammer to kill a fly. That is particularly the case if the only > problems are on one heated thread where five people are attacking each > other, but all are contributing constructively to other threads, in > which case the best response is to simply terminate the argument by > locking the thread. But on a mailing list, one would have to ban or > mute all five users instead, impacting all of the other threads those > users were contributing to. This is incorrect. I run a moderate volume (~100 posts per day) mailing list for my local community using the same software as python.org. When a thread gets out of bounds I can enter a message filter to hold for review any message matching the subject of that thread (or specified parts of it). While people can get around the filter by changing the subject line, they can do the same on a forum by starting a new topic. Someone who intentionally does this does get themselves on personal moderation. -- Richard Damon ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 8:43 PM Jan Claeys wrote: > On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 18:07 -0400, David Mertz wrote: > > Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of > > carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than > > email." The one thing they all have in common is that they are vastly > > worse than email. > > I don't 100% agree with that. > > E.g., there are better protocols when you need real-time conversations, > because (internet) email isn't necessarily good at that (by design). > Good point, 1988 IRC also serves a good purpose that is also poorly copied in hundreds of new systems. :-) > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:05 AM James Lu wrote: > > It would be nice if there was a guide on using Python-ideas and writing PEPs. > It would make it less obscure. https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-0001/ On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 11:17 AM Michael Selik wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 5:57 PM Chris Angelico wrote: > > For any proposal that actually has currency, this system does work > > The trouble is the ambiguity of knowing what "actually has currency" > is and how to get it. PEP 1 states, "Following a discussion on > python-ideas, the proposal should be submitted as a draft PEP via a > GitHub pull request." However, PEP 1 does not give instruction on how > to evaluate whether that discussion has been completed satisfactorily. Fair point. However, if there's enough in an idea that it's worth pushing forward, and too much for it to just go straight to the issue tracker or a GitHub PR, someone will usually recommend it at some point. In borderline cases, the decision of whether it's PEP-worthy or not generally comes down to "is someone willing to write and shepherd the PEP" - it's a fair bit of work, and a lot of incoming emails to deal with. ChrisA ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
It would be nice if there was a guide on using Python-ideas and writing PEPs. It would make it less obscure. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 10:43 AM Jan Claeys wrote: > > On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 18:07 -0400, David Mertz wrote: > > Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of > > carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than > > email." The one thing they all have in common is that they are vastly > > worse than email. > > I don't 100% agree with that. > > E.g., there are better protocols when you need real-time conversations, > because (internet) email isn't necessarily good at that (by design). Which part of email or internet is "by design" not good for real-time conversation? With any non-stupid MUA, emails are sent virtually instantly, unless the destination server is down. Of course, if you're used to accessing Gmail via your mobile phone app, you probably aren't accustomed to real-time conversations in email; but that is not the *design* of email. ChrisA ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
On Wed, Sep 19, 2018 at 10:21 AM James Lu wrote: > > Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the > “reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of Python.” The > discussion was going in circles and evolved into attacking each other’s use > of logical fallacies. > > Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are: > > * There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide to > change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you want > to find the authoritative current copy, since you might’ve forgotten or you > want to join he current discussion, then you have to dig through the emails > and recursively apply the proposed change. It’s just easier if people can > have one proposal they can edit themselves. > That's what the PEP system exists for. But with the "remove the word ugly from the zen" proposal, it's not serious enough for anyone to actually want to write up a PEP about it. Normally, what happens is that the "authoritative current copy" can always be found at https://www.python.org/dev/peps/pep-/ for some well-known PEP number. That PEP generally has a single authoritative author (sometimes two or three, but always a small number). For any proposal that actually has currency, this system does work (well enough that I've wanted to introduce something like it in other contexts). ChrisA ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 18:07 -0400, David Mertz wrote: > Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of > carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than > email." The one thing they all have in common is that they are vastly > worse than email. I don't 100% agree with that. E.g., there are better protocols when you need real-time conversations, because (internet) email isn't necessarily good at that (by design). And I'm sure there are other circumstances or purposes where another protocol/standard is more appropriate. But in general, email is pretty good. :) -- Jan Claeys ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where
> Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and > kept fighting. Not personally with Brett, but I have seen multiple people try to stop the “reword or remove beautiful is better than ugly in Zen of Python.” The discussion was going in circles and evolved into attacking each other’s use of logical fallacies. Other than that, my biggest issues with the current mailing system are: * There’s no way to keep a updated proposal of your own- if you decide to change your proposal, you have to communicate the change. Then, if you want to find the authoritative current copy, since you might’ve forgotten or you want to join he current discussion, then you have to dig through the emails and recursively apply the proposed change. It’s just easier if people can have one proposal they can edit themselves. * I’ve seen experienced people get confused about what was the current proposal because they were replying to older emails or they didn’t see the email with the clear examples. * The mailing list is frankly obscure. Python community leaders and package maintainers often are not aware or do not participate in Python-ideas. Not many people know how to use or navigate a mailing list. * No one really promotes the mailing list, you have to go out of your way to find where new features are proposed. * Higher discoverability means more people can participate, providing their own use cases or voting (I mean using like or dislike measures, consensus should still be how things are approved) go out of their way to find so they can propose something. Instead, I envision a forum where people can read and give their 2 cents about what features they might like to see or might not want to see. * More people means instead of having to make decisions from sometimes subjective personal experience, we can make decisions with confidence in what other Python devs want. Since potential proposers will find it easier to navigate a GUI forum, they can read previous discussions to understand the reasoning, precedent behind rejected and successful features. People proposing things that have already been rejected before can be directed to open a subtopic on the older discussion. > On Sep 18, 2018, at 3:19 PM, python-ideas-requ...@python.org wrote: > > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and > kept fighting. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Since 1972, there have been hundreds of reinventions of a means of carying on electronic conversations intended to be "better than email." The one thing they all have in common is that they are vastly worse than email. On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 6:04 PM Jan Claeys wrote: > On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 11:02 -0400, Jonathan Goble wrote: > > The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the > > inability to lock threads > > That actually wouldn't be hard to implement in a mailing list software > as a semi-automatic moderation feature... > > > -- > Jan Claeys > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, 2018-09-18 at 11:02 -0400, Jonathan Goble wrote: > The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the > inability to lock threads That actually wouldn't be hard to implement in a mailing list software as a semi-automatic moderation feature... -- Jan Claeys ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
> But there's no evidence that such tools would help. Software > enforcement powers are only necessary if verbal enforcement isn't > enough. We need the current moderators (or just Brett) to say whether > they feel it isn't enough. These systems work radically differently. You don’t get notifications for all messages in all threads by default. > What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, > or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective > enforcement. If you just have good (granular, configurable) notifications for threads you don’t even need moderation. It side steps the entire problem. / Anders ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 09/18/2018 12:05 PM, Franklin? Lee wrote: On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote: Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active >> discussion on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might not even >> try. Some discussions, I suspect, may have gone on in circles long past >> the point where they would have been locked on a forum. With forum >> software, it becomes much easier, and would be a more effective tool to >> terminate discussions that are going nowhere fast and wasting everyone's >> time. True. But there's no evidence that such tools would help. Software enforcement powers are only necessary if verbal enforcement isn't enough. We need the current moderators (or just Brett) to say whether they feel it isn't enough. It isn't enough. What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective enforcement. More ineffective enforcement will be, um, ineffective. Let's have a test. I'm a moderator (from -List). We're* working on avenues to improve the mailing tools and simultaneously testing other options. I'm not seeing anything new in this thread that will impact that one way or another, so I'm asking for all of us to move on to other topics. -- ~Ethan~ * Various moderators from various lists. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 2:37 PM Jonathan Goble wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 2:00 PM Franklin? Lee > wrote: >> >> On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:02 AM Jonathan Goble wrote: >> > >> > The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability to >> > lock threads and delete posts (i.e. those that are spam or a Code of >> > Conduct violation). Both of those are basic features that are core to >> > virtually every forum system in existence today. >> >> Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where >> Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and >> kept fighting. > > > Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active discussion > on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might not even try. Some > discussions, I suspect, may have gone on in circles long past the point where > they would have been locked on a forum. With forum software, it becomes much > easier, and would be a more effective tool to terminate discussions that are > going nowhere fast and wasting everyone's time. But there's no evidence that such tools would help. Software enforcement powers are only necessary if verbal enforcement isn't enough. We need the current moderators (or just Brett) to say whether they feel it isn't enough. What people may really be clamoring for is a larger moderation team, or a heavier hand. They want more enforcement, not more effective enforcement. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018, 2:00 PM Franklin? Lee wrote: > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:02 AM Jonathan Goble > wrote: > > > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde < > robertv...@gmail.com> wrote: > >> > >> About moderation, what's the problem on the list ? > > > > > > The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability > to lock threads and delete posts (i.e. those that are spam or a Code of > Conduct violation). Both of those are basic features that are core to > virtually every forum system in existence today. > > Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where > Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and > kept fighting. > Perhaps not, but part of that might be because stopping an active discussion on a mailing list can be hard to do, so one might not even try. Some discussions, I suspect, may have gone on in circles long past the point where they would have been locked on a forum. With forum software, it becomes much easier, and would be a more effective tool to terminate discussions that are going nowhere fast and wasting everyone's time. > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:02 AM Jonathan Goble wrote: > > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde > wrote: >> >> About moderation, what's the problem on the list ? > > > The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability to > lock threads and delete posts (i.e. those that are spam or a Code of Conduct > violation). Both of those are basic features that are core to virtually every > forum system in existence today. Is that really an issue here? I personally haven't seen threads where Brett tried to stop an active discussion, but people ignored him and kept fighting. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
> I propose Python register a trial of Stack Overflow Teams. Stack Overflow Teams is essentially your own private Stack Overflow. (I will address the private part later.) Proposals would be questions and additions or criticism would be answers. You can express your support or dissent of a proposal using the voting. Flags and reviews can be used to moderate. SO is for Q, not for discussions. I recently had good success at the company I work for with Discourse, the sister/brother software to SO, which is designed specifically for discussions. https://www.discourse.org On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 11:12 AM, Oleg Broytman wrote: > On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 04:48:18PM +0200, Robert Vanden Eynde < > robertv...@gmail.com> wrote: > > As said 100 times in the list, email is powerful, configurable but needs > a > > lot of configuration (especially hard on mobile) and has a lot of rules > > (don't top post, reply to the list, don't html, wait, html is alright) > > whereas a web based alternative is easier to grasp (more modern) but adds > > more abstraction. > > > > I can't find the link we had explaining the difference between those two, > > but mailing list is easily searchable and archivable and readable on a > > terminal. > >May I show mine: https://phdru.name/Software/mail-vs-web.html ? > > Oleg. > -- > Oleg Broytmanhttps://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name >Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > -- Juancarlo *Añez* ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 04:48:18PM +0200, Robert Vanden Eynde wrote: > As said 100 times in the list, email is powerful, configurable but needs a > lot of configuration (especially hard on mobile) and has a lot of rules > (don't top post, reply to the list, don't html, wait, html is alright) > whereas a web based alternative is easier to grasp (more modern) but adds > more abstraction. > > I can't find the link we had explaining the difference between those two, > but mailing list is easily searchable and archivable and readable on a > terminal. May I show mine: https://phdru.name/Software/mail-vs-web.html ? Oleg. -- Oleg Broytmanhttps://phdru.name/p...@phdru.name Programmers don't die, they just GOSUB without RETURN. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Tue, Sep 18, 2018 at 10:49 AM Robert Vanden Eynde wrote: > About moderation, what's the problem on the list ? > The biggest moderation issue I see with mailing lists is the inability to lock threads and delete posts (i.e. those that are spam or a Code of Conduct violation). Both of those are basic features that are core to virtually every forum system in existence today. Mailing lists offer no moderation of posts or threads unless every post is held in a moderation queue and manually approved before being sent, which isn't practical for large high-traffic lists like this. Instead, the only recourse is to moderate the user by banning or muting them, which can sometimes result in essentially using a sledgehammer to kill a fly. That is particularly the case if the only problems are on one heated thread where five people are attacking each other, but all are contributing constructively to other threads, in which case the best response is to simply terminate the argument by locking the thread. But on a mailing list, one would have to ban or mute all five users instead, impacting all of the other threads those users were contributing to. ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
As said 100 times in the list, email is powerful, configurable but needs a lot of configuration (especially hard on mobile) and has a lot of rules (don't top post, reply to the list, don't html, wait, html is alright) whereas a web based alternative is easier to grasp (more modern) but adds more abstraction. I can't find the link we had explaining the difference between those two, but mailing list is easily searchable and archivable and readable on a terminal. However, providing guis to mailing list is a nice in between to have the better of two worlds. About moderation, what's the problem on the list ? Le mar. 18 sept. 2018 à 10:44, Stephen J. Turnbull < turnbull.stephen...@u.tsukuba.ac.jp> a écrit : > Mike Miller writes: > > > A decent mail program can thread discussions and ignore the boring > > ones. > > +100, but realistically, people aren't going to change their MUAs, > especially on handhelds. The advantage of something like Discourse is > that the server side controls the UX, and that's what people who don't > want to change MUAs usually want. > > IMO the problems of these lists are a scale problem -- too many > people, too many posts. As far as I can see, the only way to "fix" it > is to become less inclusive, at least in terms of numbers. > > It's possible that a different technology will allow us to become more > inclusive in terms of diversity at the same time that we become fewer. > > Steve > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Mike Miller writes: > A decent mail program can thread discussions and ignore the boring > ones. +100, but realistically, people aren't going to change their MUAs, especially on handhelds. The advantage of something like Discourse is that the server side controls the UX, and that's what people who don't want to change MUAs usually want. IMO the problems of these lists are a scale problem -- too many people, too many posts. As far as I can see, the only way to "fix" it is to become less inclusive, at least in terms of numbers. It's possible that a different technology will allow us to become more inclusive in terms of diversity at the same time that we become fewer. Steve ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 2018-09-17 11:49, James Lu wrote: I agree completely. On Sep 17, 2018, at 1:16 PM, Anders Hovmöller wrote: It’s been almost a week since this “discussion” first started. Can we please stop this in the name of productive work on python-ideas? A better use of time might be to discuss moving to a better forum system where moderation is easier/possible. Email somehow has a shape that makes those things 100% probable and you can’t easily silence discussions that are uninteresting. A decent mail program can thread discussions and ignore the boring ones. I use Thunderbird, where the "k" key will easily silence a thread. Though I rarely use it in practice, favoring the delete key instead. -Mike ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Mon., Sep. 17, 2018, 13:21 James Lu, wrote: > How can the Zulip chat be joined? Im interested in consolidating all the > discussion into one centralized forum. > No consolidation is happening yet. We're testing out mailing list alternatives on smaller, more manageable lists first before we try to migrate something as large as python-ideas. In other words please be patient as we try to figure this out while knowing we are looking into this. -Brett > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 17, 2018, at 3:35 PM, Philippe Godbout wrote: > > Also, by restricting to python.org email address, do we not run the risk > of cutting off a lot of would be contributor? > > Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:23, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer < > arj.pyt...@gmail.com> a écrit : > >> py already has a Zulip chat >> >> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer >> Mauritius >> ___ >> Python-ideas mailing list >> Python-ideas@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On 09/17/2018 01:16 PM, James Lu wrote: So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list? No. None of the mailing lists will be migrated at this time. The plan is to get a test instance set up, tried for a while on a specific issue or two, and evaluate our experiences then. We are also investigating ways to make the mailing lists themselves more manageable. -- ~Ethan~ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 4:16 PM James Lu wrote: [..] > So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list? > Or will we only try that until Discourse works for “core sprints”? Well, as I said: "If it works well we'll consider using it for other discussions in the future." We are do not know (right now) how exactly and for what exactly we use it. Using it for python-dev and python-ideas is one possible outcome. Yury ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Simply use: https://python.zulipchat.com/login/ Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 16:20, James Lu a écrit : > How can the Zulip chat be joined? Im interested in consolidating all the > discussion into one centralized forum. > > Sent from my iPhone > > On Sep 17, 2018, at 3:35 PM, Philippe Godbout wrote: > > Also, by restricting to python.org email address, do we not run the risk > of cutting off a lot of would be contributor? > > Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:23, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer < > arj.pyt...@gmail.com> a écrit : > >> py already has a Zulip chat >> >> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer >> Mauritius >> ___ >> Python-ideas mailing list >> Python-ideas@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ >> > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
How can the Zulip chat be joined? Im interested in consolidating all the discussion into one centralized forum. Sent from my iPhone > On Sep 17, 2018, at 3:35 PM, Philippe Godbout wrote: > > Also, by restricting to python.org email address, do we not run the risk of > cutting off a lot of would be contributor? > >> Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:23, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer >> a écrit : >> py already has a Zulip chat >> >> Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer >> Mauritius >> ___ >> Python-ideas mailing list >> Python-ideas@python.org >> https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas >> Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
> It was decided to try https://www.discourse.org at the core dev > sprints. We'll likely try it for the upcoming governance model/vote > discussions. If it works well we'll consider using it for other > discussions in the future. > > Let's table this topic for now as we're unlikely to So... we’re going to be using discourse instead of Python-ideas mailing list? Or will we only try that until Discourse works for “core sprints”? > On Sep 17, 2018, at 3:34 PM, Yury Selivanov wrote: > > It was decided to try https://www.discourse.org at the core dev > sprints. We'll likely try it for the upcoming governance model/vote > discussions. If it works well we'll consider using it for other > discussions in the future. > > Let's table this topic for now as we're unlikely to ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
Also, by restricting to python.org email address, do we not run the risk of cutting off a lot of would be contributor? Le lun. 17 sept. 2018 à 15:23, Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer < arj.pyt...@gmail.com> a écrit : > py already has a Zulip chat > > Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > Mauritius > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ > ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
It was decided to try https://www.discourse.org at the core dev sprints. We'll likely try it for the upcoming governance model/vote discussions. If it works well we'll consider using it for other discussions in the future. Let's table this topic for now as we're unlikely to (a) try anything else but Discource; (b) not to try Discource for governance discussions; (c) AFAIK we already have people who will set it up for us, so no help is needed. Yury On Mon, Sep 17, 2018 at 3:23 PM Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer wrote: > > py already has a Zulip chat > > Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer > Mauritius > ___ > Python-ideas mailing list > Python-ideas@python.org > https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas > Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/ -- Yury ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
Re: [Python-ideas] Moving to another forum system where moderation is possible
py already has a Zulip chat Abdur-Rahmaan Janhangeer Mauritius ___ Python-ideas mailing list Python-ideas@python.org https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-ideas Code of Conduct: http://python.org/psf/codeofconduct/
