Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2018-02-10 16:40, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Chris Green  wrote:

Michael F. Stemper  wrote:

On 2018-02-09 13:37, Chris Green wrote:



  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home


Your ISP provides that capability? I'm surprised. I'm with Charter and
the only external IP address is for the cable modem (I think).
"icanhazip" shows the same one, no matter which computer I use.


You use the same external IP address, just use the right port number
(which you set up your router to allow in).


Exactly. The easiest way is to set up port forwarding in your cable
modem. Any device worth using should have at least SOME measure of
port forwarding. Of course, if your ISP offers an IPv6 netblock, it's
easy.



Ah, the light dawns over Marblehead! When I set up my router, I saw
the "port forwarding" page, but had no idea what it was for. Thanks for
the explanation.

I will now cease off-topic posting.

--
Michael F. Stemper
This post contains greater than 95% post-consumer bytes by weight.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Michael F. Stemper]

On 2018-02-09 13:37, Chris Green wrote:


Alternative approach, what I do:-

 Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
 my home system, read news locally using that.

 Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home


Your ISP provides that capability? I'm surprised. I'm with Charter and
the only external IP address is for the cable modem (I think).
"icanhazip" shows the same one, no matter which computer I use.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6
--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Angelico]

On Sun, Feb 11, 2018 at 8:52 AM, Chris Green  wrote:
> Michael F. Stemper  wrote:
>> On 2018-02-09 13:37, Chris Green wrote:
>>
>> > Alternative approach, what I do:-
>> >
>> >  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
>> >  my home system, read news locally using that.
>> >
>> >  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
>>
>> Your ISP provides that capability? I'm surprised. I'm with Charter and
>> the only external IP address is for the cable modem (I think).
>> "icanhazip" shows the same one, no matter which computer I use.
>>
> You use the same external IP address, just use the right port number
> (which you set up your router to allow in).
>

Exactly. The easiest way is to set up port forwarding in your cable
modem. Any device worth using should have at least SOME measure of
port forwarding. Of course, if your ISP offers an IPv6 netblock, it's
easy.

ChrisA
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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Green]

Michael F. Stemper  wrote:
> On 2018-02-09 13:37, Chris Green wrote:
> 
> > Alternative approach, what I do:-
> > 
> >  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
> >  my home system, read news locally using that.
> > 
> >  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
> 
> Your ISP provides that capability? I'm surprised. I'm with Charter and
> the only external IP address is for the cable modem (I think).
> "icanhazip" shows the same one, no matter which computer I use.
> 
You use the same external IP address, just use the right port number
(which you set up your router to allow in).

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[mm0fmf]

On 09/02/2018 21:05, codewiz...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:

codew...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

[snip]
 Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
of the google groupies.


I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.

   - I read it from both home and work.

   - I can't install any additional software at work.

   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
 between work and home through my Google account.

   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
 do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.


Alternative approach, what I do:-

 Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
 my home system, read news locally using that.

 Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
 and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
 even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
 app from your wenb browser.

The newsreader I use is tin by the way.

--
Chris Green
·


ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
tools are blocked.

Regards,
Igor.

If they take such restrictive practices then maybe should consider 
*just* doing your job when at work and leave the browsing to your own time?


--
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Gene Heskett]

On Friday 09 February 2018 23:44:54 Steven D'Aprano wrote:

> On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 17:30:57 -0800, codewizard wrote:
> > Regardless of what the policies are and how well they're enforced,
> > if the mailing list is cut off from GG, I will stop reading it.
>
> There is *absolutely nothing* we can do about that. Google doesn't
> listen to us, and the suggestion that we can influence them because
> Guido van Rossum used to work for them many years ago is naive.
>
> We cannot influence Google's decision about the newsgroup; we cannot
> convince your boss to allow access to the newsgroup at work; and
> apparently we can't convince you that just because you will no longer
> be able to access it from work, doesn't mean you have to stop
> accessing it from home. Oh well, such is life.
>
> (Ironically, the vast bulk of spam on the newsgroup comes from Google
> Groups itself, so if this does happen, it will probably be a nett win
> for the community, even if it does negatively impact some
> individuals.)
>
> > Probably
> > not a big loss to anyone else, but you might wonder how many others
> > are in the same situation...
>
> There's nothing we can do about it, so there is no point wasting time
> wondering.
>
The list I see here is much much cleaner, as anything from google groups 
has been diverted to /dev/null for a year or more. We don't need the 
blather that comes out of googlegroups. If google is unhappy and cuts it 
off, methinks they should run a broom through their own real estate 
first.
>
> --
> Steve



-- 
Cheers, Gene Heskett
--
"There are four boxes to be used in defense of liberty:
 soap, ballot, jury, and ammo. Please use in that order."
-Ed Howdershelt (Author)
Genes Web page 
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 17:30:57 -0800, codewizard wrote:

> Regardless of what the policies are and how well they're enforced, if
> the mailing list is cut off from GG, I will stop reading it.

There is *absolutely nothing* we can do about that. Google doesn't listen 
to us, and the suggestion that we can influence them because Guido van 
Rossum used to work for them many years ago is naive.

We cannot influence Google's decision about the newsgroup; we cannot 
convince your boss to allow access to the newsgroup at work; and 
apparently we can't convince you that just because you will no longer be 
able to access it from work, doesn't mean you have to stop accessing it 
from home. Oh well, such is life.

(Ironically, the vast bulk of spam on the newsgroup comes from Google 
Groups itself, so if this does happen, it will probably be a nett win for 
the community, even if it does negatively impact some individuals.)


> Probably
> not a big loss to anyone else, but you might wonder how many others are
> in the same situation...

There's nothing we can do about it, so there is no point wasting time 
wondering.


-- 
Steve

-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[codewizard]

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 6:45:18 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 2/9/18 6:19 PM, codew...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:03:45 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote:
> >> On 2/9/18 4:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> >>> On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:
>  On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
> > codew...@gmail.com wrote:
> >> On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich 
> >> wrote:
> >>> [snip]
> >>>   Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the 
> >>> loss
> >>> of the google groupies.
> >> I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
> >> of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
> >> do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
> >>
> >> - I read it from both home and work.
> >>
> >> - I can't install any additional software at work.
> >>
> >> - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
> >>
> >> - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
> >>   between work and home through my Google account.
> >>
> >> - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
> >>   do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
> >>
> > Alternative approach, what I do:-
> >
> >   Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
> >   my home system, read news locally using that.
> >
> >   Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
> >   and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
> >   even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
> >   app from your wenb browser.
> >
> > The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
> >
> > --
> > Chris Green
> > ·
>  ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even 
>  email
>  from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
>  tools are blocked.
> >>> ... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
> >>> have a Layer Eight conflict here.
> >>>
> >>> ChrisA
> >> If he can browse, he can get E-Mail with Gmail/Yahoo/AOL/etc, his normal
> >> mail ISP likely even supports some form of Web Mail Client.
> >>
> >> If they are blocking these, but not Google Groups, there is a major
> >> disconnect in the rules.
> >>
> >> -- 
> >> Richard Damon
> > Disconnect or not, I can browse GG and post replies (e.g., this one).
> > I have no access to gmail or any other email provider.
> >
> > Regards,
> > Igor.
> 
> My guess then is that your access to google groups is also against your 
> companies policies, they just haven't put an enforcement in their 
> firewalls because it is too obscure for the IT department to have 
> thought of.
> 
> Based on the sort of broad blocking they are doing, I am a bit surprised 
> they seem to be black listing rather than white listing the web.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Damon

Regardless of what the policies are and how well they're enforced,
if the mailing list is cut off from GG, I will stop reading it.
Probably not a big loss to anyone else, but you might wonder how many others 
are in the same situation...

Regards,
Igor.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Richard Damon]

On 2/9/18 6:19 PM, codewiz...@gmail.com wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:03:45 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote:

On 2/9/18 4:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:

codew...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

[snip]
  Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
of the google groupies.

I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.

- I read it from both home and work.

- I can't install any additional software at work.

- There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

- GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
  between work and home through my Google account.

- When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
  do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.


Alternative approach, what I do:-

  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
  my home system, read news locally using that.

  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
  and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
  even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
  app from your wenb browser.

The newsreader I use is tin by the way.

--
Chris Green
·

ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
tools are blocked.

... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
have a Layer Eight conflict here.

ChrisA

If he can browse, he can get E-Mail with Gmail/Yahoo/AOL/etc, his normal
mail ISP likely even supports some form of Web Mail Client.

If they are blocking these, but not Google Groups, there is a major
disconnect in the rules.

--
Richard Damon

Disconnect or not, I can browse GG and post replies (e.g., this one).
I have no access to gmail or any other email provider.

Regards,
Igor.


My guess then is that your access to google groups is also against your 
companies policies, they just haven't put an enforcement in their 
firewalls because it is too obscure for the IT department to have 
thought of.


Based on the sort of broad blocking they are doing, I am a bit surprised 
they seem to be black listing rather than white listing the web.


--
Richard Damon

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[codewizard]

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 5:03:45 PM UTC-5, Richard Damon wrote:
> On 2/9/18 4:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:
> > On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:
> >> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
> >>> codew...@gmail.com wrote:
>  On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich 
>  wrote:
> > [snip]
> >  Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the 
> > loss
> > of the google groupies.
>  I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
>  of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
>  do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
> 
> - I read it from both home and work.
> 
> - I can't install any additional software at work.
> 
> - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
> 
> - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
>   between work and home through my Google account.
> 
> - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
>   do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
> 
> >>> Alternative approach, what I do:-
> >>>
> >>>  Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
> >>>  my home system, read news locally using that.
> >>>
> >>>  Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
> >>>  and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
> >>>  even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
> >>>  app from your wenb browser.
> >>>
> >>> The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
> >>>
> >>> --
> >>> Chris Green
> >>> ·
> >> ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
> >> from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
> >> tools are blocked.
> > ... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
> > have a Layer Eight conflict here.
> >
> > ChrisA
> 
> If he can browse, he can get E-Mail with Gmail/Yahoo/AOL/etc, his normal 
> mail ISP likely even supports some form of Web Mail Client.
> 
> If they are blocking these, but not Google Groups, there is a major 
> disconnect in the rules.
> 
> -- 
> Richard Damon

Disconnect or not, I can browse GG and post replies (e.g., this one).
I have no access to gmail or any other email provider.

Regards,
Igor.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Richard Damon]

On 2/9/18 4:12 PM, Chris Angelico wrote:

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:

codew...@gmail.com wrote:

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:

[snip]
 Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
of the google groupies.

I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.

   - I read it from both home and work.

   - I can't install any additional software at work.

   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
 between work and home through my Google account.

   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
 do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.


Alternative approach, what I do:-

 Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
 my home system, read news locally using that.

 Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
 and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
 even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
 app from your wenb browser.

The newsreader I use is tin by the way.

--
Chris Green
·

ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
tools are blocked.

... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
have a Layer Eight conflict here.

ChrisA


If he can browse, he can get E-Mail with Gmail/Yahoo/AOL/etc, his normal 
mail ISP likely even supports some form of Web Mail Client.


If they are blocking these, but not Google Groups, there is a major 
disconnect in the rules.


--
Richard Damon

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Angelico]

On Sat, Feb 10, 2018 at 8:05 AM,   wrote:
> On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
>> codew...@gmail.com wrote:
>> > On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>> > > [snip]
>> > > Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
>> > > of the google groupies.
>> >
>> > I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
>> > of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
>> > do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
>> >
>> >   - I read it from both home and work.
>> >
>> >   - I can't install any additional software at work.
>> >
>> >   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
>> >
>> >   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
>> > between work and home through my Google account.
>> >
>> >   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
>> > do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
>> >
>> Alternative approach, what I do:-
>>
>> Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
>> my home system, read news locally using that.
>>
>> Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
>> and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
>> even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
>> app from your wenb browser.
>>
>> The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
>>
>> --
>> Chris Green
>> ·
>
> ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
> from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
> tools are blocked.

... yet they're okay with you browsing newsgroups? I think you may
have a Layer Eight conflict here.

ChrisA
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[codewizard]

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 2:48:17 PM UTC-5, Chris Green wrote:
> codew...@gmail.com wrote:
> > On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > > [snip]
> > > Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
> > > of the google groupies.
> > 
> > I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
> > of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
> > do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
> > 
> >   - I read it from both home and work.
> > 
> >   - I can't install any additional software at work.
> > 
> >   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
> > 
> >   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
> > between work and home through my Google account.
> > 
> >   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
> > do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
> > 
> Alternative approach, what I do:-
> 
> Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
> my home system, read news locally using that.
> 
> Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
> and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
> even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
> app from your wenb browser.
> 
> The newsreader I use is tin by the way.
> 
> -- 
> Chris Green
> ·

ssh would be even a bigger problem here. As I mentioned, I can't even email
from work to the outside! All web sites that provide remote connectivity
tools are blocked.

Regards,
Igor.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Green]

codewiz...@gmail.com wrote:
> On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> > [snip]
> > Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
> > of the google groupies.
> 
> I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
> of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
> do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.
> 
>   - I read it from both home and work.
> 
>   - I can't install any additional software at work.
> 
>   - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.
> 
>   - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
> between work and home through my Google account.
> 
>   - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
> do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.
> 
Alternative approach, what I do:-

Run a text mode (but very capable and mouse aware) newsreader on
my home system, read news locally using that.

Use ssh (is that available at worK?) to connect from work to home
and run the same newsreader in the same environment. If you can't
even ssh from work then you can always use an 'ssh from the web'
app from your wenb browser.

The newsreader I use is tin by the way.

-- 
Chris Green
·
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[codewizard]

On Saturday, February 3, 2018 at 7:15:16 PM UTC-5, pyotr filipivich wrote:
> [snip]
> Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
> of the google groupies.

I use GG to read comp.lang.python because of the following combination
of factors. I would definitely be happier if there was another way to
do this, so that I wouldn't have to wade through lots of spam.

  - I read it from both home and work.

  - I can't install any additional software at work.

  - There is no newsgroup reader software available at work.

  - GG tracks read/unread status of every post. This is shared
between work and home through my Google account.

  - When I (very rarely) post from work, I can't
do it by email, since outgoing email is blocked.

Regards,
Igor.
-- 
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Tim Golden]

On 09/02/2018 15:37, Chris Green wrote:

Steven D'Aprano  wrote:

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:


Mark Lawrence  wrote:

[...]

Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've


Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.


That's what he said :-)

Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I
checked.


He said ".(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird"

That seems to imply (to me anyway) that one needs a mail client to
read from news.gmane.org and that's just plain wrong.

While *some* mail clients are also NNTP readers it's by no means
universally true.



Just to head this off at the pass: for the purpose of discussion, could 
we assume that this particular point doesn't really matter, please?


Thanks

TJG
--
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Green]

Steven D'Aprano  wrote:
> On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:
> 
> > Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> [...]
> >> Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
> >> (semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've
> > 
> > Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.
> 
> That's what he said :-)
> 
> Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I 
> checked.
> 
He said ".(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird"

That seems to imply (to me anyway) that one needs a mail client to
read from news.gmane.org and that's just plain wrong.

While *some* mail clients are also NNTP readers it's by no means
universally true.

-- 
Chris Green
·
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Jim]

On 02/09/2018 08:07 AM, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:


Mark Lawrence  wrote:

[...]

Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've


Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.


That's what he said :-)

Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I
checked.





It does, using it for this reply.

Regards,  Jim

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Fri, 09 Feb 2018 12:45:29 +, Chris Green wrote:

> Mark Lawrence  wrote:
[...]
>> Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any
>> (semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've
> 
> Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.

That's what he said :-)

Thunderbird does both mail and news. Or at least it did, last time I 
checked.



-- 
Steve

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Green]

Mark Lawrence  wrote:
> On 09/02/18 11:23, John Ladasky wrote:
> > 
> > I haven't visited GMane in a few years, but I found it difficult to 
> > navigate. 
> In particular, I found searching to be cumbersome. Weren't the archives 
> broken into 30-day blocks? 
> > 
> > I just tried GMane again two minutes ago. I can't confirm my recollections, 
> but right now what I'm seeing is worse. If you follow this link right now... 
> (http://gmane.org/find.php?list=comp.lang.python)... you get this: 
> > 
> > "Not all of Gmane is back yet - We're working hard to restore everything"
> > 
> > And if you follow the link labeled "The latest news is at Gmane News" 
> at the bottom of that page, it takes you here... (http://home.gmane.org/)... 
> and the top blog post discussing site repairs is dated September 2016! 
> 
> > 
> > I'm not too excited about trying GMane again after seeing that.
> > 
> 
> Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any 
> (semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've 

Surely you mean NNTP/Usenet client.

> access to hundreds of Python lists and thousands of other technical 
> lists.  I find the search facilities perfectly adequate.
> 

-- 
Chris Green
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Wolfgang Maier]

On 02/09/2018 12:23 PM, John Ladasky wrote:

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:50:16 AM UTC-8, Tim Golden wrote:

Gmane offers a newsgroup interface to the mailing list


I haven't visited GMane in a few years, but I found it difficult to navigate.  
In particular, I found searching to be cumbersome.  Weren't the archives broken 
into 30-day blocks?

I just tried GMane again two minutes ago.  I can't confirm my recollections, 
but right now what I'm seeing is worse.  If you follow this link right now... 
(http://gmane.org/find.php?list=comp.lang.python)... you get this:

"Not all of Gmane is back yet - We're working hard to restore everything"

And if you follow the link labeled "The latest news is at Gmane News" at the 
bottom of that page, it takes you here... (http://home.gmane.org/)... and the top blog 
post discussing site repairs is dated September 2016!

I'm not too excited about trying GMane again after seeing that.



You are certainly right about the gmane *Web Interface*. However, you 
can access their newsgroup interface through any newsgroup reader 
(including e.g. Thunderbird) and that's a really nice way of following 
things.


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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Mark Lawrence]

On 09/02/18 11:23, John Ladasky wrote:


I haven't visited GMane in a few years, but I found it difficult to navigate.  
In particular, I found searching to be cumbersome.  Weren't the archives broken 
into 30-day blocks?

I just tried GMane again two minutes ago.  I can't confirm my recollections, 
but right now what I'm seeing is worse.  If you follow this link right now... 
(http://gmane.org/find.php?list=comp.lang.python)... you get this:

"Not all of Gmane is back yet - We're working hard to restore everything"

And if you follow the link labeled "The latest news is at Gmane News" at the 
bottom of that page, it takes you here... (http://home.gmane.org/)... and the top blog 
post discussing site repairs is dated September 2016!

I'm not too excited about trying GMane again after seeing that.



Please don't waste your time with the gmane website.  Just point any 
(semi-)decent mail client like Thunderbird at news.gmane.org and you've 
access to hundreds of Python lists and thousands of other technical 
lists.  I find the search facilities perfectly adequate.


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

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https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[John Ladasky]

On Friday, February 9, 2018 at 12:50:16 AM UTC-8, Tim Golden wrote:

[snip and rearrange]

> So dropping GG altogether would probably not add very much, as we're 
> generally blocking undesirable posts from there and we'd rather not 
> block genuine posts which happen to be made through the relative 
> convenience of the GG interface.

I thank you for this point of view.  I am using Google Groups.  I migrated here 
back in the days of Deja News.  I don't like having mailing lists streaming 
into my inbox, having to hunt around to unsubscribe.  I want a newsreader with 
integrated posting capability which is separate from my inbox.


> Gmane offers a newsgroup interface to the mailing list

I haven't visited GMane in a few years, but I found it difficult to navigate.  
In particular, I found searching to be cumbersome.  Weren't the archives broken 
into 30-day blocks?

I just tried GMane again two minutes ago.  I can't confirm my recollections, 
but right now what I'm seeing is worse.  If you follow this link right now... 
(http://gmane.org/find.php?list=comp.lang.python)... you get this:

"Not all of Gmane is back yet - We're working hard to restore everything"

And if you follow the link labeled "The latest news is at Gmane News" at the 
bottom of that page, it takes you here... (http://home.gmane.org/)... and the 
top blog post discussing site repairs is dated September 2016!

I'm not too excited about trying GMane again after seeing that.

One final thought: although Google is not the Python community, there are a lot 
of shared interests and overlap.  Google sponsored and employed Guido for 
years.  The most popular Tensorflow API is the Python API.  

Can't this relationship be used to ask Google to get more serious about the 
spam problem that originates in their domain, but that people in this 
discussion think they will hold against comp.lang.python?  Alternately, how 
about giving Google Groups users killfiles and/or the same Spambayes filter 
tools that are already used on GMail inboxes?
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Tim Golden]

On 09/02/2018 05:00, Steven D'Aprano wrote:

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 23:40:57 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:


I don't see any spam in my inbox as I read on gmane, I'm pointing out
the disgraceful state of gg and why it should be dropped as it's less
than useless.


Who is it that you think should "drop" Google Groups?


If Mark means: the mailing list gateway should automatically drop posts 
originating from GG, then this wouldn't really buy us anything we don't 
have.


I think it's unlikely that anyone still following this thread isn't 
aware of the situation, but just in case:


We have a newsgroup (comp.lang.python) and a mailing list (python-list) 
which are mirrored to each other by virtue of the Mailman gateway (ie 
the mailing list handles both sides of the mirror).


Google Groups offers a mail & web interface to the newsgroup

Gmane offers a newsgroup interface to the mailing list

The newsgroup is entirely unmoderated and unfiltered

The mailing list is moderated and filtered in different ways:

* We block (hold or discard) mailing list posts by subscriber

* We block inbound usenet posts by header (usually sender email but 
also, eg, ISP)


* We have a Spambayes instance running which injects a spam score header 
and we block on that header


* We have a few other more specific filters in place for various issues 
which have arisen over the years


By and large, this combination of filters, coupled with the work of the 
moderation and postmaster team, is enough to keep the list "clean" of 
manifest spam and so on. Obviously, the first instance of spam might 
slip past all our filters, in which case we're on the back foot and have 
to react. On the whole, though, we catch most things.


So dropping GG altogether would probably not add very much, as we're 
generally blocking undesirable posts from there and we'd rather not 
block genuine posts which happen to be made through the relative 
convenience of the GG interface.


Can I call out for thanks here the people who have worked behind the 
scenes for quite a long time to keep this list running smoothly, 
including: Skip Montanaro who manages the Spambayes setup; Mark Sapiro, 
the Mailman 2 dev lead who looks after all the python.org Mailman2 
instances; Ralf Hildebrandt who acts as Postmaster; of course Barry 
Warsaw who created Mailman (and this list, I believe) and still 
contributes when we need to discuss matters as list owners; of course 
Ethan Furman, my fellow list moderator; and doubtless others whom I've 
forgotten. The fact that the list continues to be readable and useful is 
down in large part to them.


TJG
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Steven D'Aprano]

On Thu, 08 Feb 2018 23:40:57 +, Mark Lawrence wrote:

> I don't see any spam in my inbox as I read on gmane, I'm pointing out
> the disgraceful state of gg and why it should be dropped as it's less
> than useless.

Who is it that you think should "drop" Google Groups?

If you mean individual people, it is their choice to use GG or not. I 
understand why some people might choose to use GG in general: it gives a 
reasonably discoverable web interface to Usenet.

Many people don't have access to Usenet, or even know it exists, so using 
GG is an obvious (if sub-par) alternative. (My own ISP appears to have 
dropped Usenet access, *yet again*. Each time they do so, there are 
enough complaints that they bring it back, but they simply don't stop 
trying.)

If you mean that the PSF should drop GG, that's not the PSF's choice to 
make. They don't send data specifically to GG and they can't shut off the 
pipe except by shutting it down for *everyone*. Google simply collects 
the data and mirrors it. The only one who can stop that is Google 
themselves.



-- 
Steve

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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Mark Lawrence]

On 08/02/18 23:33, Chris Angelico wrote:


The PSF doesn't *need* to take on Google, because there are other
newsgroup hosting sites that have less spam. Switch to one of those,
and voila, less spam in your inbox.

ChrisA



I don't see any spam in my inbox as I read on gmane, I'm pointing out 
the disgraceful state of gg and why it should be dropped as it's less 
than useless.


--
My fellow Pythonistas, ask not what our language can do for you, ask
what you can do for our language.

Mark Lawrence

--
https://mail.python.org/mailman/listinfo/python-list

Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Chris Angelico]

On Fri, Feb 9, 2018 at 9:35 AM,   wrote:
> On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 12:15:16 AM UTC, pyotr filipivich wrote:
>
>> Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
>> of the google groupies.
>> --
>> pyotr filipivich
>> Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?
>
> This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+39 more)
> Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro (2)
> By pyotr filipivich
> 4 posts 14 views
> 5:48 PM
> How to set/update value in a xml file using requests in python (5)
> By Sum J
> 5 posts 21 views
> 4:45 PM
> EuroPython 2018: Getting ready (1)
> By M.-A. Lemburg
> 1 post 3 views
> 3:40 PM
> How to work on a package (11)
> By Roel Schroeven
> 11 posts 34 views
> 3:19 PM
> This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+25 more)
> Benchmarking Django on PyPy with unittest? (1)
> By Etienne Robillard
> 6 posts 18 views
> 9:33 AM
> This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+18 more)
> Does anyone know ni? (6)
> By Roel Schroeven
> 6 posts 17 views
> 12:15 AM
> This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. +1 more
>
> The above is taken from my small laptop screen showing just how useless 
> google groups is, so it might as well be blown away completely, or is it 
> impossible for the PSF to take on google?
>
> The most that I've ever whacked in one hit was +55 more, all of it the Case 
> Solutions/Test Bank crap.

The PSF doesn't *need* to take on Google, because there are other
newsgroup hosting sites that have less spam. Switch to one of those,
and voila, less spam in your inbox.

ChrisA
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[breamoreboy]

On Sunday, February 4, 2018 at 12:15:16 AM UTC, pyotr filipivich wrote:

> Those of us who do not use google-groups may not notice the loss
> of the google groupies.
> --
> pyotr filipivich
> Next month's Panel: Graft - Boon or blessing?

This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+39 more)
Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro (2)
By pyotr filipivich
4 posts 14 views
5:48 PM
How to set/update value in a xml file using requests in python (5)
By Sum J
5 posts 21 views
4:45 PM
EuroPython 2018: Getting ready (1)
By M.-A. Lemburg
1 post 3 views
3:40 PM
How to work on a package (11)
By Roel Schroeven
11 posts 34 views
3:19 PM
This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+25 more)
Benchmarking Django on PyPy with unittest? (1)
By Etienne Robillard
6 posts 18 views
9:33 AM
This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. (+18 more)
Does anyone know ni? (6)
By Roel Schroeven
6 posts 17 views
12:15 AM
This topic has been hidden because you reported it for abuse. +1 more 

The above is taken from my small laptop screen showing just how useless google 
groups is, so it might as well be blown away completely, or is it impossible 
for the PSF to take on google?

The most that I've ever whacked in one hit was +55 more, all of it the Case 
Solutions/Test Bank crap.

Just saying.

--
Kindest regards.

Mark Lawrence.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[mm0fmf]

On 08/02/2018 17:36, Gilmeh Serda wrote:

On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 04:33:36 +1200, breamoreboy wrote:


When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed,

stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then
apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.


Just as I have always suspected: Google are run by idiots!


But very, very, very rich idiots.
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Re: This newsgroup (comp.lang.python) may soon be blocked by Google Gro

[Larry Martell]

On Thu, Feb 8, 2018 at 12:36 PM, Gilmeh Serda
 wrote:
> On Sat, 03 Feb 2018 04:33:36 +1200, breamoreboy wrote:
>
>>> When trying to access comp.lang.idl-pvwave, a message is now displayed,
>> stating that the group owner needs to remove the spam, and can then
>> apply to Google in order to have access reinstated.
>
> Just as I have always suspected: Google are run by idiots!

Very, very rich idiots.
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