Re: [RBW] Re: Clems: Rivendell, modernized?

[Coal Bee Rye Anne]

It may be sacrilege... but I definitely favor the Clem I have over the 
Quickbeam I don't have, but admittedly kinda wish I did have.  Instead, 
I'll be awaiting any further news on Roaduno to, hopefully, one day join my 
Clem.  I'm otherwise glad I went with a 65cm Mustard Clem as my first and 
only Riv rather than what would have ultimately been a too small 62cm 
SimpleOne, had I followed through with my initial impulse on the model that 
first drew my attention when I initially discovered Rivendell Bicycle 
Works.  The Clem is exactly what it was intended to be... an even bigger, 
better version of what I tried to make my too small, long, and low 90's 
rigid 26" MTB into as a do-it-all bike!  Although I still have the 90's MTB 
and plotting it's next iteration with a bunch of spare parts I've realized 
could make a complete build, maybe just need a few cables.

Brian Cole
Lawrence NJ

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 6:26:42 PM UTC-5 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> Jeremy, doesn’t it border on sacrilege that we would favor a Clem over 
> something as iconic as the Quick Beam? But here we are. 
>
> I know the long chainstays have been a turnoff for some, and at times they 
> make things difficult (like when putting on vehicle bike racks or choosing 
> parts like stems) but I really, really love how I feel on these new models. 
> My old Betty Foy was stiffer and far less plush feeling than my newer Rivs. 
> I’ve always thought it due to the shorter chainstays, but I’m no expert…
> Leah
>
> On Nov 19, 2021, at 1:03 PM, Jeremy Till  wrote:
>
> Great thread Leah! I too love my Clem (first gen "H" frame in green for 
> me) and everything it represents about the evolution of Rivendell's 
> designs. I became a Rivendell devotee during the "classic" era, lusting 
> after Quickbeams, Rambouillets, Atlanti, early Homers, etc. During the 
> later aughts and early teens they were already making smaller departures 
> from their lugged, level top tube road bike aesthetic (the mixtes, sloping 
> top tubes on the Sam, diagatubes on the Bombadil and Hunqapillar, etc.), 
> each one decried by the wool jerseyed diehards who had been following Grant 
> since the Bridgestone days. I bought my first Rivendell, the classic 
> Quickbeam, the same fall they brought out the "Mystery Bikes," the original 
> long chainstay bikes, and I have to say I was really intrigued by those 
> designs. So much so, in fact, that I spent the next four years trying 
> various upright bars on the Quickbeam, but it never seemed to ride as well 
> as the Mystery Bikes (two of which, belonging to others, I was lucky enough 
> to ride).  
>
>
> I agree with Leah that with its long chainstays, swoopy tubes, tig 
> welding, and really fat tires, the Clem probably represents the biggest 
> single departure from Rivendell's "classic" aesthetics, and its success 
> paved the way for everything that's come after it in terms of a general 
> opening up of what was possible with a Rivendell. For me, that came 
> together in a build using mostly black components, including a Thomson 
> seatpost and Jones loop h-bar. With this build , 
> it encompasses and goes beyond everything I had loved about the Mystery 
> Bikes and had tried to replicate unsuccessfully with my Quickbeam. It's no 
> surprise that shortly after I built up the Clem, the Quickbeam left my 
> life. Aside from the occasional wistful glance over its current owner's 
> Instagram, I don't regret it. 
>
> However, to those that see the recent designs as nothing but a fundamental 
> departure from what made Grant's designs attractive in the first place, I 
> would say that there is one unifying feature running through all of them, 
> and that is great handling *for the intended fit of the bike.* As anyone 
> who has ridden albatross bars on racing bike can tell you, good handling is 
> not just about steering geometry but also how the bike's geometry works 
> with your weight distribution and fit. Grant's Bridgestone designs had a 
> good reputation for handling, but were pretty much racing bikes that 
> assumed low handlebars and a stretched out fit. My feeling is that the 
> early Rivendell designs were attempting to replicate these handling 
> characteristics but with a fit that was more achievable for non-racers; so 
> things like (slightly) longer chainstays went along with drop bars roughly 
> even with the saddle. As Grant got older and continued to experiment with 
> things like Albatross bars, I'm sure he realized that "classic" Rivendell 
> geometry didn't produce the handling characteristics he wanted with a much 
> more upright posture, and thus began the experiments with longer chainstays 
> that led to the Clem and more recent designs. His success in replicating 
> those handling characteristics was evident to me the first time I chased 
> friends on road and cross bikes down steep paved descents on Mt. Tam. I had 
> never felt so confident in my bike's 

[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[brendonoid]

If I can lift a bike over a fallen tree then it is light enough. I remember 
when I had full front a rear pannier racks and was carrying way more 
camping stuff than I needed including 2kgs of coffee making paraphenalia. I 
went to pull my bike over a fallen tree and almost couldn't lift it. I got 
home and that Appaloosa setup was around 17.5kgs unloaded. That was one of 
the few times I've ever worried about weight. Now I don the lift test 
before I go anywhere and throw out stuff I don't need.

My ten years of experience riding Rivs tells me that Grant makes his frames 
a bit overbuilt and his forks a bit underbuilt. Always wanted to try a 
surly fork on my Sam or something just to see how much difference it would 
make. Boy I went on a tangent what is this thread about?

As far as deciding between suzie vs clem, and assuming budget isn't an 
issue. Get the one you can actually get your hands on! If you want to 
electrify in the future make sure you get a bottom bracket mounted kit I 
would never want a front hub motor on a Riv.

On Saturday, 20 November 2021 at 08:26:34 UTC+8 Joe Bernard wrote:

> That ain't bad at all, Gill. I would have guessed 5 pounds more for sure. 
> Clems are light! 
>
> Joe Bernard
>
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 4:03:54 PM UTC-8 Gill wrote:
>
>> 2020 Clem stock build, brooks B17, thunder burt tires, light tubes, small 
>> saddle bag - 31lbs. 
>> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:34:47 PM UTC-5 aeroperf wrote:
>>
>>> While we’re going "arg!"...
>>> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be 
>>> answered just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>>>
>>> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her 
>>> build, but I guess that’s OBE.
>>> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
>>> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>>>
>>> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to 
>>> be a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
>>> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or 
>>> hanging them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>>>
>>> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
>>> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
>>> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
>>> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
>>> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
>>> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a 
>>> bell.
>>> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>>>
>>> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
>>> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>>>
>>> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
>>> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
>>> tubing, lighter crank.
>>>
>>> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next 
>>> time at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Joe Bernard]

That ain't bad at all, Gill. I would have guessed 5 pounds more for sure. 
Clems are light! 

Joe Bernard

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 4:03:54 PM UTC-8 Gill wrote:

> 2020 Clem stock build, brooks B17, thunder burt tires, light tubes, small 
> saddle bag - 31lbs. 
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:34:47 PM UTC-5 aeroperf wrote:
>
>> While we’re going "arg!"...
>> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be 
>> answered just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>>
>> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her 
>> build, but I guess that’s OBE.
>> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
>> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>>
>> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
>> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
>> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or 
>> hanging them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>>
>> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
>> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
>> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
>> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
>> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
>> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
>> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>>
>> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
>> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>>
>> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
>> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
>> tubing, lighter crank.
>>
>> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
>> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Gill]

2020 Clem stock build, brooks B17, thunder burt tires, light tubes, small 
saddle bag - 31lbs. 
On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 12:34:47 PM UTC-5 aeroperf wrote:

> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Leah Peterson]

I know…big missed opportunity on my part - I absolutely should have weighed 
those bikes but I was like a kid at Christmas and got caught up in the shiny 
new bike excitement. Totally forgot about weighing the thing. 

Someone mentioned (was it this thread?) about knowing how a bike feels 
weight-wise, and that’s true. I can tell the difference between adding and 
empty Saddlesack or not. I can probably tell the new seat post I put on my 
Platy is heavier if I go lift that bike right now.

I’m moving to Michigan in 3 weeks. Here’s hoping I make some Rivendell friends 
in my new state who will keep me accountable for this stuff! 藍

Sorry!
L

> On Nov 19, 2021, at 9:34 AM, aeroperf  wrote:
> 
> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
> 
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
> 
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be a 
> conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
> 
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c wheels, 
> Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 levers, 
> Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
> 
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding weight 
> comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
> 
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank and 
> FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner tubing, 
> lighter crank.
> 
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time at 
> your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Clems: Rivendell, modernized?

[Leah Peterson]

Jeremy, doesn’t it border on sacrilege that we would favor a Clem over 
something as iconic as the Quick Beam? But here we are. 

I know the long chainstays have been a turnoff for some, and at times they make 
things difficult (like when putting on vehicle bike racks or choosing parts 
like stems) but I really, really love how I feel on these new models. My old 
Betty Foy was stiffer and far less plush feeling than my newer Rivs. I’ve 
always thought it due to the shorter chainstays, but I’m no expert…
Leah

> On Nov 19, 2021, at 1:03 PM, Jeremy Till  wrote:
> 
> Great thread Leah! I too love my Clem (first gen "H" frame in green for me) 
> and everything it represents about the evolution of Rivendell's designs. I 
> became a Rivendell devotee during the "classic" era, lusting after 
> Quickbeams, Rambouillets, Atlanti, early Homers, etc. During the later aughts 
> and early teens they were already making smaller departures from their 
> lugged, level top tube road bike aesthetic (the mixtes, sloping top tubes on 
> the Sam, diagatubes on the Bombadil and Hunqapillar, etc.), each one decried 
> by the wool jerseyed diehards who had been following Grant since the 
> Bridgestone days. I bought my first Rivendell, the classic Quickbeam, the 
> same fall they brought out the "Mystery Bikes," the original long chainstay 
> bikes, and I have to say I was really intrigued by those designs. So much so, 
> in fact, that I spent the next four years trying various upright bars on the 
> Quickbeam, but it never seemed to ride as well as the Mystery Bikes (two of 
> which, belonging to others, I was lucky enough to ride).  
> 
> I agree with Leah that with its long chainstays, swoopy tubes, tig welding, 
> and really fat tires, the Clem probably represents the biggest single 
> departure from Rivendell's "classic" aesthetics, and its success paved the 
> way for everything that's come after it in terms of a general opening up of 
> what was possible with a Rivendell. For me, that came together in a build 
> using mostly black components, including a Thomson seatpost and Jones loop 
> h-bar. With this build, it encompasses and goes beyond everything I had loved 
> about the Mystery Bikes and had tried to replicate unsuccessfully with my 
> Quickbeam. It's no surprise that shortly after I built up the Clem, the 
> Quickbeam left my life. Aside from the occasional wistful glance over its 
> current owner's Instagram, I don't regret it. 
> 
> However, to those that see the recent designs as nothing but a fundamental 
> departure from what made Grant's designs attractive in the first place, I 
> would say that there is one unifying feature running through all of them, and 
> that is great handling for the intended fit of the bike. As anyone who has 
> ridden albatross bars on racing bike can tell you, good handling is not just 
> about steering geometry but also how the bike's geometry works with your 
> weight distribution and fit. Grant's Bridgestone designs had a good 
> reputation for handling, but were pretty much racing bikes that assumed low 
> handlebars and a stretched out fit. My feeling is that the early Rivendell 
> designs were attempting to replicate these handling characteristics but with 
> a fit that was more achievable for non-racers; so things like (slightly) 
> longer chainstays went along with drop bars roughly even with the saddle. As 
> Grant got older and continued to experiment with things like Albatross bars, 
> I'm sure he realized that "classic" Rivendell geometry didn't produce the 
> handling characteristics he wanted with a much more upright posture, and thus 
> began the experiments with longer chainstays that led to the Clem and more 
> recent designs. His success in replicating those handling characteristics was 
> evident to me the first time I chased friends on road and cross bikes down 
> steep paved descents on Mt. Tam. I had never felt so confident in my bike's 
> handling while sitting upright.  
> 
> Don't get me wrong, I still love the classic designs as well. A couple of 
> years after the Quickbeam left, a green Rambouillet came into my life, and 
> it's built up following the rules, with drop bars and lots of silver Nitto 
> and Sugino. With the drop bars and a more "athletic" fit than the Clem, it 
> also handles great and is the most comfortable "road bike" (in the 
> traditional sense) that I have ever owned. 
> 
> -Jeremy Till
> Sacramento, CA
> 
>> On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 9:14:04 AM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
>> wrote:
>> Can we talk about the Rivendell Clems for a minute? I hesitate as I write 
>> this, because opinions on here tend to be strong, but I see this as a fun 
>> topic and worth exploring. We can be nice, even if we disagree. I have been 
>> seeing Clems in several colors, in a variety of configurations, all over 
>> Instagram. Blue Lug and Helmet Kids are two of my favorite bike Instagram 
>> accounts, and they frequently feature Clems on their 

Re: [RBW] Clems: Rivendell, modernized?

[Leah Peterson]

Gill is right about the name of this color, naturally. I mean, I couldn’t agree 
more 藍. 

Kai, I love this. Fantastic use of Clem, and fantastic photo of it doing the 
good things.

> On Nov 19, 2021, at 10:28 AM, Gill  wrote:
> 
> Kai - Did you ride your Clem out to the end of the breakwater? I’ve never 
> thought to do that. I’ve also never seen another Riv out in the wild so if 
> ever you return to glosta give a shout out. 
> Leah - The color is, “blue-green shot thru with glimmer like sunlight on 
> seawater” 
> 
>> On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 11:26:14 PM UTC-5 Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
>> wrote:
>> The granite of Cape Ann!! With two TIGd Rivs (Clem in 2019 on the breakwater 
>> and Rosco in 2020)
>> 
>> Happy Rolling to all
>> -Kai
> 
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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

Just an entirely negligible aside, but I used to go through all sorts of
contortions to weigh my Riv Roads and other road bikes by gingerly
(gingerly-ly?) balancing them on a plank itself precariously balanced on
the pan of a 25-lb USPS-certified Pelouze spring package scale. The
bathroom scale method was brilliant (Brit sense) by comparison.

Patrick "Oh, the things we used to do in the name of Fredery" Moore

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 3:24 PM aeroperf  wrote:

> ... Patrick—Great idea for first approximation.  My scale is only good to
> the nearest 1/2 pound, though.

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[RBW] Re: FS: 52cm Clem Smith H, MUSTARD

[Nikko in Oakland]

bump for a good build. 
On Saturday, November 6, 2021 at 1:18:19 PM UTC-7 Christopher Barbey wrote:

> Three questions if you don't mind:
>
> 1. What size are the wheels on this?
> 2. Are you at all willing to sell just the frame?
> 3. How tall are you/what's your PBH & how do you feel about the fit?
>
> Thank you!
>
> On Wednesday, November 3, 2021 at 3:27:21 PM UTC-4 Igor wrote:
>
>> Testing the waters. As you may or may not know, I have a lot of bikes and 
>> go through a lot of bikes. As such, I need to clear out the garage. I don't 
>> particularly want to sell but ...
>>
>> $2000+ shipping.
>> Has it's share of beausauge but no dents. Reply off thread for more 
>> information if you're seriously interested
>>
>> Rack and saddlebag not included.
>> Front hub is a Shimano dynamo
>>
>> [image: IMG_9186.jpeg]
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 1:55 PM lconley  wrote:

> ... So why does my Gus Boots Wilsen have a titanium stem and handlebars?
> And I do own a Park bicycle scale and know the weight of my 1971 Gitane
> before and after I applied Weigle frame saver.


Man! I thought I was bad! (Though I'm far less pathologically obsessed with
weight than I used to be, thank God, tho' the gofast does still have a Phil
ti and not steel bb and yes, a ti stem binder bolt.)

... when people start talking about frames "planing", I get that same
> feeling that I do when artsy types try to explain why a painting that
> consists of two black dots on a canvas is a work of genius.


I was of your opinion until I got the Chauncey Matthews clone: I had him
copy my 2003 Curt Goodrich Riv Road custom but in .8 .4 .8 standard gauge
531. Curt had used some doubtless high-end but oversized and, presumably
thick-walled tubing. The Riv weighed -- I just posted that. You've heard me
say this *ad nauseum *(pron. "ahhd NOWseeeaahhm) but I'll say it again: not
only did the clone not feel like it was "bogging down" as the 2003 often
did, but it felt faster than my hitherto *ultima Thule* ("OOlteema
t-HOOlay") 1999 Riv gofast custom, with almost exactly the same geometry
and almost identical wheels and truly identical (at the time of comparison)
tires. So, it wasn't the geometry, it wasn't the riding position, it wasn't
the wheels, it wasn't the tires;* ergo, per remotionem* (ayrgo pair
raymohtseeOHnem) it was the frame, ergo "planing." Right?


> And for proponents of tubeless tires, what in the world is a pinch flat?
> In my 50+ years of riding derailleur equipped bicycles, I have never had a
> pinch flat and am not really sure what one is. A flat is what happens when
> a thin steel wire from a worn-out steel belted radial automobile tire is
> picked up from the pavement by my bicycle tire and penetrates the tube. We
> all have a way of determining what and what is not important to us, and it
> is not necessarily consistent or logical.

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[RBW] Re: FS: 61cm Roadeo Complete

[maxcr]

Gorgeous!

Max, who's downsizing yet is still tempted by this beauty

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 4:38:57 PM UTC-5 John G. wrote:

> Time to move this one on! Selling my beloved 61cm Roadeo so that I can 
> fund the purchase of a different bike. It's great, but it has almost total 
> overlap with my Weigle, so it's the one that's gotta go. Looking for $2300 
> plus shipping. Specs below.
>
> Bars: Nitto Noodles, 44cm
> Stem: Technomic, 100mm
> Brifters: Ultegra 10 Speed
> Headset: FSA
> Crankset: Ultegra 10 speed double. 50/34
> FD: Dura Ace
> RD: Ultegra
> Cassette: Ultegra 10 Speed. Less than 1K miles. 12-28
> Pedals: Shimano PD-A600. These are Ultegra-level SPD cleats. I love 
> them--Jan Heine uses them, fwiw.
> Brakes: TRP Long Reach. 
> Seatpost: Nitto 65
> Wheels: Pacenti Forza rims and hubs. Less than 1K miles. These wheels are 
> SO much better than I thought they'd be--strong and light, and they puff up 
> tires nicely
> Tires: Conti GP5000 28mm. Less than 1K miles
> Fenders: Honjo hammered. Great coverage for 28mm tires.
> Saddle: provide your own.
>
> Note: I was in the process of replacing chain, brakepads, bartape, cables, 
> and housing. I will ship you the replacement parts if you buy it.
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[aeroperf]

Hetchins52-
No, the Sam weighed about 3/4 pounds more than the Homer, comparably 
equipped: 30.5 vs 29 lb 14 oz (29.875).  This is the problem with weighing 
- the Homer was 650B but had heavier tires, etc., etc.

It just comes down to weighing what you actually ride, and then basing off 
of that.  If we could get people to weigh the bare frames before they build 
it up, we could get
a “more rigorous” comparison.  The engineer in me rejoices.  But we really 
don’t ride bare frames, and folks add various things to the build, and it 
really doesn’t matter - Riv folks are not put off by a pound or two either 
way, and there are NO bragging rights here for a “lighter” build, or we’d 
all be retrofitting with $3000 Ultegra groupsets.

The item of interest is the comparison between one “ridden” bike and 
another.  As Leah says,”…said she examined the Susie and it was SO heavy”.  
How heavy?
I recently put a Brooks B17 saddle on my Sam.  The bike felt a lot 
heavier.  Why?  The Brooks has a metal edge in the back.  I lift the bike 
by the handlebars and rear of the saddle, and now it cuts into my fingers…

The subject keeps coming up, though, over and over.  That’s why I recommend 
having the LBS weigh your bike to find out what you actually ride. 
THIS is what you have to lift onto a rack on the back of the car, or haul 
up the stairs to a second-story apartment.  This is what you want to know, 
to answer the question at the top of the thread.   And the LBS will 
probably weigh it for free.

Patrick—
Great idea for first approximation.  My scale is only good to the nearest 
1/2 pound, though.  Since I tour with 35 pounds of crap on board, I try to 
get a little better resolution (also since I ship the bike to where I plan 
to start a tour).
Iconley—
That’s why I use Conti SpeedRide tires.  About a pound apiece, and 6000 
miles without a flat.  That could change tomorrow.  And there is coral in 
Florida…

I’m jesting about the conspiracy, but even Riv says “only a few pounds 
heavier than carbon” without ever giving a frame weight or a comparison.

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[RBW] Re: Clems: Rivendell, modernized?

[Jeremy Till]

Great thread Leah! I too love my Clem (first gen "H" frame in green for me) 
and everything it represents about the evolution of Rivendell's designs. I 
became a Rivendell devotee during the "classic" era, lusting after 
Quickbeams, Rambouillets, Atlanti, early Homers, etc. During the later 
aughts and early teens they were already making smaller departures from 
their lugged, level top tube road bike aesthetic (the mixtes, sloping top 
tubes on the Sam, diagatubes on the Bombadil and Hunqapillar, etc.), each 
one decried by the wool jerseyed diehards who had been following Grant 
since the Bridgestone days. I bought my first Rivendell, the classic 
Quickbeam, the same fall they brought out the "Mystery Bikes," the original 
long chainstay bikes, and I have to say I was really intrigued by those 
designs. So much so, in fact, that I spent the next four years trying 
various upright bars on the Quickbeam, but it never seemed to ride as well 
as the Mystery Bikes (two of which, belonging to others, I was lucky enough 
to ride).  

I agree with Leah that with its long chainstays, swoopy tubes, tig welding, 
and really fat tires, the Clem probably represents the biggest single 
departure from Rivendell's "classic" aesthetics, and its success paved the 
way for everything that's come after it in terms of a general opening up of 
what was possible with a Rivendell. For me, that came together in a build 
using mostly black components, including a Thomson seatpost and Jones loop 
h-bar. With this build , it encompasses and goes 
beyond everything I had loved about the Mystery Bikes and had tried to 
replicate unsuccessfully with my Quickbeam. It's no surprise that shortly 
after I built up the Clem, the Quickbeam left my life. Aside from the 
occasional wistful glance over its current owner's Instagram, I don't 
regret it. 

However, to those that see the recent designs as nothing but a fundamental 
departure from what made Grant's designs attractive in the first place, I 
would say that there is one unifying feature running through all of them, 
and that is great handling *for the intended fit of the bike.* As anyone 
who has ridden albatross bars on racing bike can tell you, good handling is 
not just about steering geometry but also how the bike's geometry works 
with your weight distribution and fit. Grant's Bridgestone designs had a 
good reputation for handling, but were pretty much racing bikes that 
assumed low handlebars and a stretched out fit. My feeling is that the 
early Rivendell designs were attempting to replicate these handling 
characteristics but with a fit that was more achievable for non-racers; so 
things like (slightly) longer chainstays went along with drop bars roughly 
even with the saddle. As Grant got older and continued to experiment with 
things like Albatross bars, I'm sure he realized that "classic" Rivendell 
geometry didn't produce the handling characteristics he wanted with a much 
more upright posture, and thus began the experiments with longer chainstays 
that led to the Clem and more recent designs. His success in replicating 
those handling characteristics was evident to me the first time I chased 
friends on road and cross bikes down steep paved descents on Mt. Tam. I had 
never felt so confident in my bike's handling while sitting upright.  

Don't get me wrong, I still love the classic designs as well. A couple of 
years after the Quickbeam left, a green Rambouillet came into my life 
, and it's built up following the rules, with 
drop bars and lots of silver Nitto and Sugino. With the drop bars and a 
more "athletic" fit than the Clem, it also handles great and is the most 
comfortable "road bike" (in the traditional sense) that I have ever owned. 

-Jeremy Till
Sacramento, CA

On Tuesday, November 16, 2021 at 9:14:04 AM UTC-8 Bicycle Belle Ding Ding! 
wrote:

> [image: 84256557-932F-4AD7-99B6-8BE9DC178396.jpeg]Can we talk about the 
> Rivendell Clems for a minute? I hesitate as I write this, because opinions 
> on here tend to be strong, but I see this as a fun topic and worth 
> exploring. We can be nice, even if we disagree. I have been seeing Clems in 
> several colors, in a variety of configurations, all over Instagram. Blue 
> Lug and Helmet Kids are two of my favorite bike Instagram accounts, and 
> they frequently feature Clems on their group rides. Calling In Sick, a bike 
> magazine you’ve likely heard of, did an entire issue on the magic of the 
> Clem, which is also all over Instagram. I suppose it could be that Clem 
> popularity is imagined by me; I personally love Clems and therefore notice 
> them, so I’ll add that caveat here. But I really do think the Clems are 
> having their moment.
>
> When I first discovered Rivendell in 2012 the only social media I knew 
> about was the List.  The bikes were all lugged, and built with silver 
> parts. There was a definite prescribed look. The demographics of the 

[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[lconley]

I can lose the weight of two complete Rivendell spec complete Clems off of 
my body, and still be overweight, so saving grams off of the bike and low 
spoke counts are not as important to me as they were back in the seventies. 
So why does my Gus Boots Wilsen have a titanium stem and handlebars? And I 
do own a Park bicycle scale and know the weight of my 1971 Gitane before 
and after I applied Weigle frame saver. I can feel the difference when I 
put lighter tires on a bicycle, but when people start talking about frames 
"planing", I get that same feeling that I do when artsy types try to 
explain why a painting that consists of two black dots on a canvas is a 
work of genius. And for proponents of tubeless tires, what in the world is 
a pinch flat? In my 50+ years of riding derailleur equipped bicycles, I 
have never had a pinch flat and am not really sure what one is. A flat is 
what happens when a thin steel wire from a worn-out steel belted radial 
automobile tire is picked up from the pavement by my bicycle tire and 
penetrates the tube. We all have a way of determining what and what is not 
important to us, and it is not necessarily consistent or logical.

Laing
lives in Florida where we don't have any type of native stone - all stones 
are imported.

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 3:25:09 PM UTC-5 iamkeith wrote:

> I'm guessing it's not so much a conspiracy as it is the fact that a lot of 
> rivendell owners are the type of riders who just don't think or care as 
> much about weight as some other bikers do.  At least I'm that way:   I dont 
> buy cheap frames or put unnecessarily heavy or fragile components on them, 
> so the bike weighs what it weighs. Sometimes I get curious, but not enough 
> to buy or borrow a scale, or to go to the trouble of removing things like 
> leather saddles and bags and racks fenders -  which would be necessary to 
> level the baseline to most cited bike weights, but which would make the 
> measurement meaningless and the bike useless.
>
>
>
>
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:34:47 AM UTC-7 aeroperf wrote:
>
>> While we’re going "arg!"...
>> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be 
>> answered just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>>
>> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her 
>> build, but I guess that’s OBE.
>> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
>> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>>
>> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
>> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
>> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or 
>> hanging them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>>
>> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
>> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
>> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
>> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
>> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
>> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
>> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>>
>> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
>> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>>
>> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
>> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
>> tubing, lighter crank.
>>
>> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
>> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

['Hetchins52' via RBW Owners Bunch]

I'm surprised that the Sam seems to weigh less than the Homer!
Were the 2015 Sam's made in Taiwan?
I have a 56 cm Toyo Homer which must be a lighter frame and fork. And, it 
has lighter Pacenti Brevet wheels with Paris-Moto tubed tires. When I 
weighed it a few years ago (get on digital bathroom scale with bike, weigh 
again without, subtract) it had a Mark's rack, two Iris cages and a 
Carradice SQR block (only) on the seat post, (might have had a Terry 
"Liberator" saddle) = 24.5 lbs. Added a Topeak pump and it was 25.4 lbs. I 
don't think it had fenders. It does now and I need to check which saddle, 
so I should reweigh it.
David Lipsky
Berkeley

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 9:34:47 AM UTC-8 aeroperf wrote:

> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[iamkeith]

I'm guessing it's not so much a conspiracy as it is the fact that a lot of 
rivendell owners are the type of riders who just don't think or care as 
much about weight as some other bikers do.  At least I'm that way:   I dont 
buy cheap frames or put unnecessarily heavy or fragile components on them, 
so the bike weighs what it weighs. Sometimes I get curious, but not enough 
to buy or borrow a scale, or to go to the trouble of removing things like 
leather saddles and bags and racks fenders -  which would be necessary to 
level the baseline to most cited bike weights, but which would make the 
measurement meaningless and the bike useless.




On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:34:47 AM UTC-7 aeroperf wrote:

> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be 
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Patrick Moore]

Or, if you have a decent body scale, weight before and while holding the
bike.

I'll be interested in hearing Clem weights and corresponding builds.

I do think Riv framesets are heavier than they need to be, but OTOH, so
many people find Clems and such to ride "lighter" than their weight; this
includes a real roadie or ex-roadie, Patrick O'Grady, formerly of Velo News
and BRAIN, who owns a Clem and an Sam and has reviewed these and other Rivs
positively. (He also, apparently lives in ABQ, NM, as I just discovered.)

My 2003 58 c-c Riv Road custom built with very long steerer and head for
26" wheels weighed 7 lb with contemporary Ultegra hs, while my early '70s
Libertas frameset, 60X56 c-c, with *steel* Campy HS weighs 5 lb 14.5 oz.
The Libertas has somehow lasted some 40 or 50 years.

The 2003 built with 48X17 Dingle on Surly flip flop hub, Son, f and r
lights, custom f and r racks, VO fenders, bell, cages, and seat bag with
kit weighed about 26 lb, the same  as the replacement Matthews build up the
same but with 2 lb+ SA AM hub.

I think my Sam Hill with fenders and racks was about 30. For comparison,
the other Matthews "road bike for dirt" with 700C X 62 mm Big Ones and
42/28 X 13-25 10 sp drivetrain, 80 mm alum fenders, SP f+r lighting system,
no racks but Med Revelate Tangle frame bag (emptied of all except the
K-Lite switching gear and cig-pack-size capacitor), plus cages and bell and
steel/aluminum handlebar-attached accessory mount weighs 30.5 lb, thanks to
light wheels (tires 450 grams) and lightweight tubing.

The 1999 gofast fixie custom is 18 lb even with heavy (360 g) pedals and
heavy Phil hubs, but the proposed swappable wheel TC hub will add probably
a lb or more, the also proposed TF only about 1/2 lb.

On Fri, Nov 19, 2021 at 10:34 AM aeroperf  wrote:

> While we’re going "arg!"...
> A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered
> just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.
>
> I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build,
> but I guess that’s OBE.
> How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their
> Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?
>
> Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be
> a conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
> We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging
> them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.
>
> I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
> 2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
> Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c
> wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550
> levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
> Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
> 29 pounds, 3 oz
>
> Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding
> weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.
>
> A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank
> and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner
> tubing, lighter crank.
>
> It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time
> at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.
>

---
Patrick Moore
Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum

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[RBW] Re: WTT: Brooks C17 Black

[Doug H.]

To clarify this C17 is the solid one without the relief carved out of the 
middle.
Doug

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 2:17:17 PM UTC-5 Jeffrey Arita wrote:

> Hi Doug,
>
> PM sent.
>
> Jeff
> Claremont, CA
>
> On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 7:29:41 AM UTC-8 Doug H. wrote:
>
>> I've now tried the C17 and my bum doesn't approve so I want to trade for 
>> a B17 black or antique brown, not the honey color. Or, another brand of 
>> leather saddle. If I don't find a trade I will sell this like new C17 in 
>> box.
>> Thanks,
>> Doug
>> Athens, GA
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: WTT: Brooks C17 Black

[Jeffrey Arita]

Hi Doug,

PM sent.

Jeff
Claremont, CA

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 7:29:41 AM UTC-8 Doug H. wrote:

> I've now tried the C17 and my bum doesn't approve so I want to trade for a 
> B17 black or antique brown, not the honey color. Or, another brand of 
> leather saddle. If I don't find a trade I will sell this like new C17 in 
> box.
> Thanks,
> Doug
> Athens, GA
>

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Re: [RBW] Clems: Rivendell, modernized?

[Gill]

Kai - Did you ride your Clem out to the end of the breakwater? I’ve never 
thought to do that. I’ve also never seen another Riv out in the wild so if 
ever you return to glosta give a shout out. 
Leah - The color is, “blue-green shot thru with glimmer like sunlight on 
seawater” 

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 11:26:14 PM UTC-5 Kainalu V. -Brooklyn NY 
wrote:

> The granite of Cape Ann!! With two TIGd Rivs (Clem in 2019 on the 
> breakwater and Rosco in 2020)
> [image: IMG_20190704_130839.jpg][image: IMG_20200904_122038.jpg]
> Happy Rolling to all
> -Kai
>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[aeroperf]

While we’re going "arg!"...
A number of threads have asked, and one of the questions could be answered 
just by hanging a bike on the scale at your LBS.

I was hoping Leah would weigh Peppermint Platy before and after her build, 
but I guess that’s OBE.
How about somebody go weigh their Clem, and somebody go weigh their 
Gus/Susie, and somebody go weigh their Platypus - and report back?

Whether bike weight actually makes a difference or not, there seems to be a 
conspiracy about not reporting Rivendell bike weights.
We’ve had people talk about getting them up a flight of stairs, or hanging 
them on a rack, but nobody actually puts out a number.

I’ll start.  Here’s mine:
2015 Sam, size 55, as supplied by Rivendell:
Bar end shifters, Suguino XD2 triple crank, FD-3030 front, Atlas 700c 
wheels, Conti SpeedRide tubed tires, Shimano RD-M591 rear, Shimano R550 
levers, Tektro R-559 brakes, cork grips.
Add a Serfas RX-921V saddle, Blackspire pedals, Zefal fenders, and a bell.
29 pounds, 3 oz

Add a Blackburn EX-1 rack and BCC 12.12 computer and my typical riding 
weight comes in a just a smidge under 30.5 pounds.

A Homer, size 51, set up exactly the same way except Deore FC-M590 crank 
and FD-M610 derailleur came in at 29 pounds 14 oz.  Smaller bike, thinner 
tubing, lighter crank.

It’s not a Susie or a Clem or a Platy, but it is a data point.  Next time 
at your LBS, take one minute and have them weigh your bike.

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Johnny Alien]

The Charlie H. Gallop is not exactly a true mixte but it does have a lovely 
swoopy top tube.  It is a tigged road bike basically designed to be a cross 
between a Clem and a Roadini.  While its a road bike primarily it is 
designed to be used with swept back bars. I consider it probably closer to 
a country bike then road but it is light and fast (and the name and color 
back it up). Rivendell had a few prototypes made but for a myriad of 
reasons (with the largest being the supply chain issues and factory back 
up) it got shelved for the time being. I was lucky enough to grab one of 
the prototypes when it was listed on the site.  I know they plan on picking 
the project back up at some point. Hopefully its not too long because this 
is a killer bike that people are going to love. I know there will be 
changes between my prototype and the final product but I am not sure what. 
I think that one of the things will be the brakes. Mine takes V brakes (I 
have mini-V's on it) but I think they are going to switch that to sidepull. 
I have no idea where I got that idea from though.

On Friday, November 19, 2021 at 10:29:12 AM UTC-5 Kiley Demond wrote:

> I am so late to this party What pray tell is a "Gallop"? I clicked on 
> the link and am very curious. Yes, it is partly because it is a spectacular 
> shade of orange; I am every bit a girl (Like Leah and Raspberry Sparkle) 
> and when it comes to orange... And it is a mixte. 
>
> Pointing me to links that discuss this new beast (with the best name in a 
> long time), I would be grateful. 
>
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:36:15 PM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:
>
>> @Doug H, I posted the Protogallop in this thread
>>
>> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/j5vUNKjgsUE/m/rD97QHpSCQAJ
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:
>>
>>> I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite 
>>> rims) and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
>>> experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
>>> you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
>>> apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.
>>>
>>> I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
>>> saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
>>> left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
>>> super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
>>> capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
>>> as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
>>> flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
>>> basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
>>> to loads well, and always feels solid.
>>>
>>> I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how 
>>> it steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads 
>>> self steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when 
>>> commuting, and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't 
>>> bothered by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension 
>>> than the Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in 
>>> the city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
>>> competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
>>> with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.
>>>
>>> That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always 
>>> preferred the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the 
>>> sizing difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with 
>>> its shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the 
>>> "rigid steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.
>>>
>>> --Ed C.
>>>
>>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>>>
 This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
 making some of you go "arg!"...

 What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 

- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical

 The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm 
 Cheviot which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues 
 overrode having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and 
 do the build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame 
 was listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
 right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
 sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.

[RBW] WTT: Brooks C17 Black

[Doug H.]

I've now tried the C17 and my bum doesn't approve so I want to trade for a 
B17 black or antique brown, not the honey color. Or, another brand of 
leather saddle. If I don't find a trade I will sell this like new C17 in 
box.
Thanks,
Doug
Athens, GA

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Kiley Demond]

I am so late to this party What pray tell is a "Gallop"? I clicked on 
the link and am very curious. Yes, it is partly because it is a spectacular 
shade of orange; I am every bit a girl (Like Leah and Raspberry Sparkle) 
and when it comes to orange... And it is a mixte. 

Pointing me to links that discuss this new beast (with the best name in a 
long time), I would be grateful. 

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:36:15 PM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:

> @Doug H, I posted the Protogallop in this thread
>
> https://groups.google.com/g/rbw-owners-bunch/c/j5vUNKjgsUE/m/rD97QHpSCQAJ
>
> On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 2:48:39 PM UTC-5 Ed Carolipio wrote:
>
>> I have a 45cm Clem L (2017 with 26 x 2.1 tires, SunRingle RhynoLite rims) 
>> and a Small Gus (2020 with 27.5 x 2.4, Cliffhanger rims) so caveat my 
>> experiences as a shorter (78cm PBH) and a "stouter" (220 lbs) rider than 
>> you. Also, I think I'm supposed to be on a 52cm Clem so there's a slight 
>> apples-to-oranges effect in the comparison.
>>
>> I set up the Gus as a trail bike, with a large handlebar bag and a large 
>> saddle bag supported by a Mark's rack, both which center the load 
>> left/right and keeps the weight between the axles. I run the 
>> super-wide-swept back Tosco Bullmoose-style bars. Set up this way I find it 
>> capable and comfortable on our rocky, loose-over-hardpack trails in SoCal 
>> as long as the trail is not overly technical. I have the Clem set up as a 
>> flat bar urban commuter (I'm using a Jones loop) with fenders, a front 
>> basket, and large Nitto rear rack. The Clem L handles "like a Riv," takes 
>> to loads well, and always feels solid.
>>
>> I tried the Gus as a pavement commuter and ... nope. I didn't like how it 
>> steered with a load in a front basket, and too soft a front tire leads self 
>> steering on pavement. I like to run a single heavy pannier when commuting, 
>> and the Gus really didn't like that offset load. (The Clem isn't bothered 
>> by the same load.) The Gus is so much bigger in every dimension than the 
>> Clem L so, as others have pointed out, it's harder to live with in the 
>> city. I haven't tried the Clem L on dirt but I suspect it would perform 
>> competently on groomed dirt paths and maybe some single track when set up 
>> with a swept back Bosco, bag-and-racks, no fenders, and wider tires.
>>
>> That said, I've tried a few setups on the Clem L and have always 
>> preferred the way the Gus rides over it (which granted may be due to the 
>> sizing difference.) Forced between the two, I'd keep the Gus and live with 
>> its shortcomings as a city bike and pavement commuter - I just like the 
>> "rigid steel trail bike" ride which the Gus provides.
>>
>> --Ed C.
>>
>> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 1:08:51 PM UTC-8 Kiley Demond wrote:
>>
>>> This has probably been hashed over numerous times so at the risk of 
>>> making some of you go "arg!"...
>>>
>>> What are the differences of note between Clem L. and Susie W.? 
>>>
>>>- Handling (stability, nimbleness)
>>>- Wieldy-ness (overall size, weight, etc.)
>>>- Suitability for electrifying at a future date
>>>- Any other thoughts, whether experiential or theoretical
>>>
>>> The person asking is 5'10" 140lbs with a pbh of 91. I had a 60cm Cheviot 
>>> which I loved but sold several years ago when financial issues overrode 
>>> having such a fancy ride. I would prefer to buy a frame only and do the 
>>> build myself. I was gutted when I saw that an orange Susie W. frame was 
>>> listed (and sold); I wasn't paying sufficient attention. I "won" the 
>>> right-to-purchase lottery for a Clem but couldn't do it because they were 
>>> sold as complete and I hadn't done my due diligence on Susie Ws.
>>>
>>> Thank you for your collective insights and wisdom!
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Kiley Demond]

I ride mostly light trails and some roads. More unpaved than paved but 
nothing "gnarly"; I don't have a death wish. 

On Wednesday, November 10, 2021 at 6:33:50 AM UTC-7 Johnny Alien wrote:

> What type of riding are we talking about? To me that would make a 
> difference. If it's mostly paved then I am going to be biased and say wait 
> until the Gallop is officially released. I have my proto built up as a 1x11 
> and with pacenti wheels it's in the 20 lb range. Light, fast and has the 
> great looks of the Susie/Gus. I didn't think it would take over my road 
> specific Saluki but it has. I am contemplating selling/trading the Saluki 
> toward a Clem L for light trail. Or maybe I should set the Saluki up to be 
> trail like. I just love the step through designs.
>
>
> On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 9:55:14 PM UTC-5 Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>> This is the sort of report -- there have been others -- that keeps the 
>> Clem, despite my misgivings, on the "some day" list. Well described.
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 9, 2021 at 7:48 PM iamkeith  wrote:
>>
>>> ... The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a low center of gravity, 
>>> stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is pretty quick - like a 
>>> relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as I was expecting when 
>>> I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable on pavement and at 
>>> speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a "regular" road bike in 
>>> that I felt like every bit of effort translated to forward motion.  Kind of 
>>> like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.
>>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Susie v. Clem Help Me Off The Fence

[Kiley Demond]

Thank you for the exhaustive answer! I chickened out on the Clem L in the 
lottery... which of course now is a semi-regret. Ah, a resale awaits and 
will find me at the right time.

On Tuesday, November 9, 2021 at 7:48:34 PM UTC-7 iamkeith wrote:

> I had a 59 Clem H from the first run, and now have a 56 Suzie.   In both 
> cases, I'm pretty sure mine were the first frames pre-ordered from Riv. - I 
> had followed the development closely and both spoke to me as being the 
> perfect bike for what I wanted at the time, and I pulled the trigger the 
> second they went live.   Here are some random, rambling thoughts and 
> impressions.  Keep in mind as you read this that, although we'd ride the 
> same size frame, we'd have entirely different experiences.  I'm about 4" 
> taller than you (6'-2"), but have a shorter PBH (87). 
>
> First things first:  They are very different bikes!  When I ordered the 
> Susie, I thought it was going to mostly be a "perfected" version of the 
> Clem, and that it would solve a couple of the minor but nagging complaints 
> I had about the Clem (slightly too long of chainstays and too little 
> standover clearance for trail/mountain use; too short of a top tube for a 
> good fit; too flexy of a frame).  The Susie did rectify all of those 
> things, but I was otherwise completely wrong about one being a direct 
> replacement for the other - there are very few similarites.   I kick myself 
> daily for getting rid of the Clem.  Not not because I liked it "more" than 
> the Susie, but because I could have found a place for both in the quiver 
> had I known how different they are, and had I known that almost none of the 
> parts were transferable from one to the other - which meant that I had to 
> re-purchase a lot of pieces that I hadn't intended to.  
>
> In terms of ride/stability:  The Clem feels like a true Rivendell, with a 
> low center of gravity, stable and instantly comfortable.  The steering is 
> pretty quick - like a relaxed rivish road bike more than a mountain bike as 
> I was expecting when I got it.  As a result, it was quite (most) enjoyable 
> on pavement and at speed.  With the long wheelbase, it differed from a 
> "regular" road bike in that I felt like every bit of effort translated to 
> forward motion.  Kind of like a speed skate versus a hockey skate.  The 
> Susie, on the other hand, has a very-noticably higher bottom bracket and, 
> therefore, center of gravity.  It also has a more relaxed steering 
> geometry.  So it feels like a lot of mountain bikes or off-road touring 
> bikes, but without that distictive "rivendell" quality.  Less effort for 
> slow-speed cruising around.  Even though the Susie is lighter gauge tubing 
> (and lighter overall), it is less flexy than the Clem.  On rough trails or 
> standing out of the pedals, I'd got shimmy on the Clem, as I felt the whole 
> frame flex torsionally.  This is a guess, but I attribute part of the 
> Susie's relative rigidity to the shaped chainstays that add better 
> triangulation.  The clem's are arrow-straight.
>
> In terms of "wieldy-ness,"  the Clem was definitely a chore to bring 
> along.   I had to take the wheel off to fit it in the back of my pickup.  I 
> don't need to do that with the Susie.   I don't live in an apartment or 
> have to deal with stairs but, even if I did, I'd nonetheless gladly 
> sacrifice a little convenience to own either bike.  Both are big but, 
> having gotten used to them, I can't imagine ever buying a short bike again 
> - at least for trails and town and day-to-day use.  I have a ton of bikes, 
> but these are the ones I almost always grab.  (This is when I kick myself 
> the most for getting rid of the Clem - it felt more like an extension of me 
> than the Susie does.)  Unless your frame of reference is carbon fiber road 
> race bikes, neither are heavy bikes by any stretch.  Even with full racks 
> and fenders, I never think about the weight like i do with some of my bikes.
>
> In terms of suitability for electrifying:  You're on you own... but Joe 
> could probably help.  I see the Susie as my heirloom forever bike, and I 
> can't imagine bolting a motor to it or adding stresses that might damage it 
> - but that's me.  Personally, I'd get one of the cheap, heavy-duty Jones 
> LWBs if I wanted to do this, or just get an off-the-shelf electric bike for 
> less money.  
>
> Fit-wise, the Susie has too much stack height for me, with the bars I 
> stubbornly want to use (bullmoose bosco) and, though longer, is STILL not 
> long enough in the top tube.  The Clem was marginal (almost too high) for 
> stack height, but it worked.   If you're flexible with cockpit choice, this 
> can of course be fixed, but I basically find the Susie to be more 
> restrictive.  It even makes the steering a little too light for me, as I'm 
> forced to be too upright and can't lean my weight forward enough.  In your 
> case, with a shorter torso and longer legs, I'd suspect that you'll find 

Re: [RBW] Roadini 650b conversion

[Brian Campbell]

I have a 61cm,  2011, A. Homer Hilsen with braze-on Paul racers, internal 
wiring, custom paint that runs 38mm with full fenders. I am the only owner 
since I bought the frame from Riv. It will be going up for sale soon to 
help offset a long over-due kitchen renovation. Let me know if you have 
interest and I can send a set of pictures. I am near Philadelphia.

On Thursday, November 18, 2021 at 7:11:17 PM UTC-5 Kushan wrote:

> Thanks Joe and Eric. I guess my Roadini will be going up for sale soon :) 
>
> On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 12:04:50 PM UTC-8 Joe Bernard wrote:
>
>> I know you asked Eric but I'll chime in anyway, it's what I do!
>>
>> I think the Roadini is a fine road bike as is, and will work great for 
>> someone else if your needs have changed and you need bigger tires, fenders, 
>> and brakes that will work with both in wet weather. There's a lot of 
>> v-brake Rivs that fit that picture, plus disc bikes like the Pass Hunter. 
>> You're gettin' a new bike! 
>>
>> Joe Bernard
>>
>> On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 11:17:09 AM UTC-8 Kushan wrote:
>>
>>> Thanks all for your thoughts so far. This is shaping up to be a more 
>>> complicated change than I thought (but then again, aren't all bike changes 
>>> are?) ... 
>>>
>>> Joe - I like your suggestion of using centerpulls. I actually thought 
>>> that center pull required dedicated braze-on on frames but a quick research 
>>> indicated that they can be fork crown mounted similar to calipers.
>>>
>>> Eric - The discussion so far is definately dissudaing me but out of 
>>> curiousity - does your take on low stopping power with long reach calipers 
>>> + wet rims extend to center pull brakes as well? I am wondering if it woul 
>>> be better off getting a disc braked bike (e.g. VO Pass Hunter) instead of 
>>> mucking around with 650bs on Roadini. 
>>>
>>> On Wednesday, November 17, 2021 at 10:15:12 AM UTC-8 Eric Daume wrote:
>>>
 Long reach calipers + wet rims = no noticeable stopping power.  Not 
 recommended, even if you can live with a very low bottom bracket. 

 Eric

 On Wednesday, November 17, 2021, Kushan  wrote:

> Hi all -
>
> I currently own a 2020 Roadini (61 cm) with 38 mm slick tires. I have 
> tried 32 mm and 35 mm in past but find 38 mm perfect in terms of comfort 
> vs. speed trade off. I am planning to move to the land of daily rain 
> (Seattle!!) in a near future and have been told that permanent fenders 
> are 
> a must have for getting any real use out of the bike. 
>
> The problem is that I don't want to use 32 mm tires (which is the 
> advertised max clearance with fenders) for this frame. I am contemplating 
> if conversion to 650b wheels will give me sufficient clearance for 38 mm 
> tires with fender (smaller frame 650b Roadinis are known to clear upto 42 
> mm). 
>
> My questions to the group are:
> - Is this even an option or would the chain/seat stays and fork will 
> simply not cover this much tire + fenders?
> - Based on Rivendell 650b conversion guide, the conversion should be 
> straightforward by switching to long reach caliper brakes and bottom 
> bracket will have sufficient clearance for 170 mm cranks. However, I 
> wanted 
> to see if anyone has attempted this conversion before and what their 
> experience was. 
>
> Best
> Kushan
>
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>  
> 
> .
>


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