[RBW] Clem frame geometry differences

[Zed Martinez]

Depends now on H or L, the published geos for the Hs are still the same, if I 
remember right. The new Ls get longer effective top tubes, longer chainstays, 
and a slightly shallower headtube angle to match, I believe. 

If this works it should be a copy of the original 2015 geos for the Clems and 
you can compare with the size and style you’re looking at. 
https://1drv.ms/u/s!Aqk-5-qi6X7DocAQz8vAreA6baZxSQ

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[RBW] Re: Dynamo Hub Recommendations

[Zed Martinez]

I've only just used the Shimano 3N72, and only for a couple weeks now, but 
I went for it after a few people here expressed good experiences with them, 
and then finding this comparison online that showed the Shimanos were much 
much closer to the SONs than not these 
days: http://www.crazyguyonabike.com/reviews/board/message/?message_id=143635

This one shows a bigger difference between the newer Shimano 3Nxx series 
and the SONs, but it was also just a lab test with the wheel and not 
measured on an actual bike on rollers like the other, so, I consider it 
more of a theoretical measurement 
set: https://www.cyclingabout.com/dynamo-hub-drag-lab-testing/

For the price difference, I still thought the performance trade-off between 
the SON and Shimano was one of diminishing returns and stopped putting off 
getting dynamo lighting until I could afford the SON wheel, myself. I don't 
really notice any difference with the lights off, and with them on I'd say 
I noticed half (maaaybe a third) as much drag as my roadster with a fairly 
well respected Nordlicht bottle dynamo gets. I don't know how that measures 
against the SON IRL, but it's fine enough for my needs. But, I'm somewhat 
famous for running my Clem like a hoss on fairly hefty tires, so, if you 
like to run lighter maybe the drag would be more obvious than it is for me?

On Tuesday, May 12, 2020 at 12:06:29 AM UTC-4, Jonathan D. wrote:
>
> I was curious what folks experience are with the different dynamo hub 
> options.  The Schmidt Sonn Dynamo hub seem to set the standard but at a 
> high cost.  The other two I was looking at are Shutter Precision and the 
> Shimano Dynamo hubs.  Anyone seen a good comparison? Should I be concerned 
> with reliability if I went with something cheaper than the Schmidt hub?
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Admissions of Things You Ought to Have Known But Did Not: A Thread

[Zed Martinez]

>
> Just for the record and for clarification, and not at all to disagree: by 
> "bouncing" one can mean the ping pong ball sort of bouncing that comes from 
> excessively high pressure, where even small bumps cause the tire to hop, or 
> on the contrary, the bouncing that comes from pedaling on a tire so soft 
> that it sags with each pedal stroke.


Too right. Riding my bricks I tend to forget some tires get bouncy on the 
under inflated side, my experience once it gets too low is more like 
walking on sponges, as if the bike is somehow sinking into the road as I 
pedal. Which I suppose is like bouncing in reverse, in a way.

On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 11:33:20 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Just for the record and for clarification, and not at all to disagree: by 
> "bouncing" one can mean the ping pong ball sort of bouncing that comes from 
> excessively high pressure, where even small bumps cause the tire to hop, or 
> on the contrary, the bouncing that comes from pedaling on a tire so soft 
> that it sags with each pedal stroke.
>
> On Tue, May 5, 2020 at 9:17 AM Zed Martinez  > wrote:
>
>> ... the optimum balance between 'feels slow' and 'starts bouncing' can 
>> deviate notably from Jan's calculation and the graph that Steve showed. 
>>
> -- 
>
> ---
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nuevo Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique, Orbis Terrarum
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Admissions of Things You Ought to Have Known But Did Not: A Thread

[Zed Martinez]

In the real spirit of the thread, tires aside, my things I should have 
known was hubris management. After my first few bike builds I went into my 
original Clem pretty overconfident in myself, and I probably could've saved 
a couple of years of frustration and failed adjustments if I'd been less 
full of myself at the beginning and noticed more things like 'huh, the 
saddle keeps slipping down,' and more willing to just get a fitting once I 
got lost in the woods to give me a sanity check.

it was ultimately an expensive lesson, but, having learned it maybe the 
hardest way I could've set up for myself, it's one likely to stay with me. 
These days I remember there's somehow always a gap between feeling like one 
knows a lot, and actually knowing enough, and if I start by assuming I 
don't know enough it always goes better in the end than the reverse.

On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 11:17:31 AM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
> I'm with Patrick on the tire mattering a lot. I ride more the 
> utility/brick side of tires than he does (and consequently have developed a 
> habit of leaning towards higher inflations rather than lower), and the 
> optimum balance between 'feels slow' and 'starts bouncing' can deviate 
> notably from Jan's calculation and the graph that Steve showed. Curiously, 
> I keep all three of my bikes between 45-60 PSI (45-50 front, 60-ish rear). 
> Except they're all three different total (bike+me+stuff) weights, tire 
> widths, and tire types. My 3-spd roadster with its 35mm Delta Cruisers 
> works out a a bit low per the formula but I like the comfort more over the 
> speed at that inflation on that bike, inflated per the suggestion I think I 
> can feel every pebble bounce me. My road-ish Centurion 650b conversion with 
> its 38mm Soma New Xpress tires is a bit high but not by a lot. The real 
> outlier is my Clem with its 50mm Schwalbe Mondials, which are drastically 
> higher inflated at 45/60 than the formula would suggest, but any lower than 
> that and I can actually feel the increased rolling resistance over my seven 
> mile commute. Like I left my brake on, or about the same feeling as using 
> my bottle dynamo on the 3-spd. It's notable. If I tried to ride those down 
> as low as 30-40PSI like suggested I'd feel like I was stuck in the mud. At 
> 60 front and 70 rear they start getting that 'baseball' bouncy effect.
>
> I always start with the formula's suggestion and then try 5-10 PSI over 
> and 5-10 PSI under and tweak where I actually leave it for any given tire 
> based on where it felt slugglish and where it felt bouncey.
>
> On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 10:48:41 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Wait: Leah weighs *less* than 170? Boy Steve, you blew that one.
>>
>> Back to tire pressure: I recall how as a boy I first saw "Inflate to 70 
>> psi" on the side of my cheap 27 X 1.25" gumwalls, and after pumping them to 
>> more or less that (probably per gas station gauge), how fast the bike felt, 
>> and nope, it wasn't due to vibations, which has *never* been an 
>> indicator of speed for me; it's always been ease, or perceived ease of 
>> pedaling, along with a feeling of smoothness; ie bikes feel faster on 
>> smooth roads than bumpy ones, all else equal.
>>
>> But the question of pressure relates to tire quality too. Cheap tires 
>> really do go, or at least feel, faster when hard -- try riding a $15 
>> Walmart 2" knobby at 35 psi! Pump it to 50 and it's much better. OTOH, I've 
>> let really supple tires deflate potentially disastrous levels -- 
>> 30-something psi on a 28 mm Elk Pass (I do weigh 50 lb less than 220) -- 
>> and didn't notice that they were low until I started bouncing in the 
>> saddle. Once I got a rear puncture and didn't notice it until someone 
>> behind me noticed the flat profile and said, "Puncture!" She then asked, 
>> "Didn't you notice it?" -- very surprised that such sagging hadn't caused 
>> massive drag. But not, the Elk Pass feels normally fast even at pressures 
>> way below appropriate.
>>
>> With the Big Ones, just as supple, I've not noticed mid-teens in the back 
>> until sidewall flop in a corner almost causes me to wipe out.
>>
>> So there is a huge difference in the effect of air pressure on rolling 
>> resistance when comparing top quality and cheap quality tires.
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Admissions of Things You Ought to Have Known But Did Not: A Thread

[Zed Martinez]

I'm with Patrick on the tire mattering a lot. I ride more the utility/brick 
side of tires than he does (and consequently have developed a habit of 
leaning towards higher inflations rather than lower), and the optimum 
balance between 'feels slow' and 'starts bouncing' can deviate notably from 
Jan's calculation and the graph that Steve showed. Curiously, I keep all 
three of my bikes between 45-60 PSI (45-50 front, 60-ish rear). Except 
they're all three different total (bike+me+stuff) weights, tire widths, and 
tire types. My 3-spd roadster with its 35mm Delta Cruisers works out a a 
bit low per the formula but I like the comfort more over the speed at that 
inflation on that bike, inflated per the suggestion I think I can feel 
every pebble bounce me. My road-ish Centurion 650b conversion with its 38mm 
Soma New Xpress tires is a bit high but not by a lot. The real outlier is 
my Clem with its 50mm Schwalbe Mondials, which are drastically higher 
inflated at 45/60 than the formula would suggest, but any lower than that 
and I can actually feel the increased rolling resistance over my seven mile 
commute. Like I left my brake on, or about the same feeling as using my 
bottle dynamo on the 3-spd. It's notable. If I tried to ride those down as 
low as 30-40PSI like suggested I'd feel like I was stuck in the mud. At 60 
front and 70 rear they start getting that 'baseball' bouncy effect.

I always start with the formula's suggestion and then try 5-10 PSI over and 
5-10 PSI under and tweak where I actually leave it for any given tire based 
on where it felt slugglish and where it felt bouncey.

On Tuesday, May 5, 2020 at 10:48:41 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Wait: Leah weighs *less* than 170? Boy Steve, you blew that one.
>
> Back to tire pressure: I recall how as a boy I first saw "Inflate to 70 
> psi" on the side of my cheap 27 X 1.25" gumwalls, and after pumping them to 
> more or less that (probably per gas station gauge), how fast the bike felt, 
> and nope, it wasn't due to vibations, which has *never* been an indicator 
> of speed for me; it's always been ease, or perceived ease of pedaling, 
> along with a feeling of smoothness; ie bikes feel faster on smooth roads 
> than bumpy ones, all else equal.
>
> But the question of pressure relates to tire quality too. Cheap tires 
> really do go, or at least feel, faster when hard -- try riding a $15 
> Walmart 2" knobby at 35 psi! Pump it to 50 and it's much better. OTOH, I've 
> let really supple tires deflate potentially disastrous levels -- 
> 30-something psi on a 28 mm Elk Pass (I do weigh 50 lb less than 220) -- 
> and didn't notice that they were low until I started bouncing in the 
> saddle. Once I got a rear puncture and didn't notice it until someone 
> behind me noticed the flat profile and said, "Puncture!" She then asked, 
> "Didn't you notice it?" -- very surprised that such sagging hadn't caused 
> massive drag. But not, the Elk Pass feels normally fast even at pressures 
> way below appropriate.
>
> With the Big Ones, just as supple, I've not noticed mid-teens in the back 
> until sidewall flop in a corner almost causes me to wipe out.
>
> So there is a huge difference in the effect of air pressure on rolling 
> resistance when comparing top quality and cheap quality tires.
>

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[RBW] Re: Causes for bike noises

[Zed Martinez]

The weirdest and hardest to isolate ticking I ever fixed was the clamp 
sleeve on a pair of Bosco bars. Even with a clean, tight stem interface, 
there'd be a tick tick tick as I weighted and unweighted the bars. Only 
solved that one by dribbling a little blue Loctite around the sleeve's ends 
and pulsing it into the gap between the sleeve and the bar with an air 
compressor. Made a mess, but that bar was quiet forever after.

On Friday, May 1, 2020 at 4:31:12 PM UTC-4, Clark Fitzgerald wrote:
>
> Sheldon Brown has a great article on Creaks, Clicks, & Clunks 
> .
>
> Yesterday I fixed an annoying ticking noise that happened on most crank 
> rotations, but only in warm weather. The culprit turned out to be the 
> pedals, which I forgot to grease when I installed new pedals on new cranks. 
> Another bike I had (not a Rivendell) had a bad creaking noise that turned 
> out to be from the square taper bottom bracket that was installed at the 
> factory without grease.
>
> I'm curious- what annoying noises have others fixed on their bikes? What 
> caused it?
>

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[RBW] Shimming a Bosco Bar?

[Zed Martinez]

I shimmed mine for a while. Worked fine, mechanically. Like every time I’ve 
used a shim, it was more prone to creaking and ticking over time. Otherwise it 
went fine. 

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[RBW] Re: Fender Ideas

[Zed Martinez]

>
> too big and rubbed on the metal stay strap the runs under the fender


It requires being a bit a bit handy and ideally a rivet setter, but on 
those SKS fenders you can drill out the rivets on those brackets and 
remount them on the outside of the fender instead. Good for tight 
clearance, but also on some fender and tire combinations that bracket will 
catch enough water to cause its own splashing problems, and remounting it 
outside makes that less an issue. I picked up the idea from this old post, 
which sadly the pictures have gone AWOL on, but the web archive still has 
the relevant useful one at 
least: 
https://web.archive.org/web/20130925090125/http://roadcyclinguk.com/how-to/maintenance/improve-your-sks-mudguard.html

On Saturday, April 25, 2020 at 10:18:46 AM UTC-4, j glenn wrote:
>
> I've got SKS P35 Longboard  fenders over 28mm  Gravelkings on one bike.  
> Continental 28mm GP4000's where  too big and rubbed on the metal stay strap 
> the runs under the fender. I adjusted the fender line to get a bit more 
> clearance there and put the Gravelkings back on. I get a bit of rub when I 
> get out of the saddle to mash up a hill. I am not a small person though.  I 
> have  had thoughts of putting larger tires on the bike and larger  split 
> fenders. 
>
> On Friday, April 24, 2020 at 9:48:57 PM UTC-4, Dave Grossman wrote:
>>
>> I'm looking to add fenders to my Milwaukee Orange One single speed.  I 
>> have caliper brakes front and rear and can allegedly clear a 28 with 
>> fenders.  Anyone have a rec for an inexpensive but full coverage fender for 
>> these specs?
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Ghost shifting on the Clem

[Zed Martinez]

I can see the argument for two master links weakening the chain, but I rode 
my larger Clem with a two master link splice the entire time I had it and 
never had any issue really. Actually, I kinda miss that little two master 
link set-up, since the master links didn't wear the same as the chain 
around them but they'd both be on the chainring at once it made a really 
unique set of ticking noises as the chain started to wear and it was a 
useful reminder that I had probably been ignoring my chain, once I figured 
that out anyway.


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[RBW] Re: FS: Paul Touring Cantis, VO brake set and thumbie mount, possible tires

[Zed Martinez]

Brake sets sold. Thumbie adaptors and tires still up for grabs. 

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[RBW] Re: FS: Paul Touring Cantis, VO brake set and thumbie mount, possible tires

[Zed Martinez]

Both brake sets pending. Sorry all who emailed me, had some work come up, 
I'll reply to everybody in order.

On Monday, April 20, 2020 at 2:31:37 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
> Hey all, so, while I was digging through the parts storage for a few 
> things this weekend for listers who had some WTBs I was able to help on, I 
> found some other parts left over from my many years of experimenting with 
> Clem builds. I'm quite happy with my final build now, so, time to see if 
> these can find a happier home.
>
> All prices shipped CONUS. Outside that I'd have to check rates and work 
> with ya.
>
>
> Paul Touring Cantilevers. 1 bike's worth, matte silver finish. One with 
> the original Kool-Stop pads, gently used. The other with Jagwire pads, more 
> used. No hangers or straddle cables. One post bushing is a little chewed on 
> the outside but still functions smoothly and seals with O-ring. Cosmetic 
> issue only, and only when installing since the brake hides it when 
> installed. $90 for the pair.
>
> VO Grand Cru Mk III cantilevers. The wide-stance frog leg ones. These have 
> their hangers and the clever little barrel adjustors for the straddle 
> cables. Not as strong as the Pauls, good in dry riding, very attractive in 
> their CNC'ed way. $30 for pair.
>
> VO thumbie adapters. They're nice. They work well with the original 
> Silvers or the Dia-Compe generics of the same. Not as good with the Silver 
> 2s, the cable exit angle is wrong. $40
>
>
> And I have some 650b tires leftover from the 52 Clem. Make me a reasonable 
> offer and we'll talk, I'm a little less sure how well my ability to get 
> them out the door the next couple weeks will go but I can try.
>
> 2x Schwalbe Marathon Mondials, 2", folding bead. I forget how many miles I 
> have on them. They're Mondials, they've still got a ways to go left in them.
>
> 2x Suomi A10 studded tires, 40mm. Pretty OK on ice, not so great in snow. 
> From Peter White, so, the studs are all set nice. used one winter only, 
> lightly.
>
> 2x Continental Mountain King II 2.2". Pretty standard knobbies, only used 
> off-road once, used as fall tires one winter besides. Knobs still look fine.
>
>
> Pictures of anything available on request, I'll see if I can get some 
> today or tomorrow to put up in a reply otherwise.
>
>

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[RBW] FS: Paul Touring Cantis, VO brake set and thumbie mount, possible tires

[Zed Martinez]

Hey all, so, while I was digging through the parts storage for a few things 
this weekend for listers who had some WTBs I was able to help on, I found 
some other parts left over from my many years of experimenting with Clem 
builds. I'm quite happy with my final build now, so, time to see if these 
can find a happier home.

All prices shipped CONUS. Outside that I'd have to check rates and work 
with ya.


Paul Touring Cantilevers. 1 bike's worth, matte silver finish. One with the 
original Kool-Stop pads, gently used. The other with Jagwire pads, more 
used. No hangers or straddle cables. One post bushing is a little chewed on 
the outside but still functions smoothly and seals with O-ring. Cosmetic 
issue only, and only when installing since the brake hides it when 
installed. $90 for the pair.

VO Grand Cru Mk III cantilevers. The wide-stance frog leg ones. These have 
their hangers and the clever little barrel adjustors for the straddle 
cables. Not as strong as the Pauls, good in dry riding, very attractive in 
their CNC'ed way. $30 for pair.

VO thumbie adapters. They're nice. They work well with the original Silvers 
or the Dia-Compe generics of the same. Not as good with the Silver 2s, the 
cable exit angle is wrong. $40


And I have some 650b tires leftover from the 52 Clem. Make me a reasonable 
offer and we'll talk, I'm a little less sure how well my ability to get 
them out the door the next couple weeks will go but I can try.

2x Schwalbe Marathon Mondials, 2", folding bead. I forget how many miles I 
have on them. They're Mondials, they've still got a ways to go left in them.

2x Suomi A10 studded tires, 40mm. Pretty OK on ice, not so great in snow. 
>From Peter White, so, the studs are all set nice. used one winter only, 
lightly.

2x Continental Mountain King II 2.2". Pretty standard knobbies, only used 
off-road once, used as fall tires one winter besides. Knobs still look fine.


Pictures of anything available on request, I'll see if I can get some today 
or tomorrow to put up in a reply otherwise.

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[RBW] Re: Amusing PSA: Mustard Clem frame

[Zed Martinez]

"Gravel Peterson"
>
>
Admittedly, 'Gravel Peterson' would've been a great name for my 52cm Clem, 
and I'm mad I didn't think of it. 

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[RBW] WTB: Silver, New Albion, or XD2 Crankset 170 length

[Zed Martinez]

Hello all! I could use a good crankset of the standard Riv varieties in a 
170 crankarm, which seems to be OOS pretty much everywhere ATM. If anyone 
has a spare laying around, I'd be interested in taking it off your hands. 
Not super picky about configuration. Or, even just bare arms, I have some 
rings and a bash guard I could use (for the XD2/New Albions anyway, I 
assume being the same BCDs the Silvers would also take them in a pinch?). 
Just need to replace one that's gotten a bit rounded and stretched and 
won't torque down right anymore. Thanks in advance, if anyone has anything.

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[RBW] Re: WTB: Velo Orange decaleur kit

[Zed Martinez]

I actually do have one of those, haven't needed it since I switched to 
using a front rack with a deeper tombstone on the Clem. Send me a private, 
we'll get you sorted.

On Friday, February 21, 2020 at 2:23:08 PM UTC-5, Cody Bartz wrote:
>
> Hi folks!
>
> Anyone out there have a VO decaleur kit around? I have an Atlantis, and I 
> should know this, but believe I need a 1" version right?
>
> Thank you!
> Cody
> Key West, Florida
>

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[RBW] Re: Any 90ish PBH folks riding a 52 Clem H?

[Zed Martinez]

Not quite the same thing but I'm right at the cusp between the 45 and the 
52 with about an 80.5 PBH/70cm saddle height. So, literally the last model 
of overlap. I started with the 52 in the H, and eventually switched to the 
45 but in L. I don't suspect the fit and position I have is quite what Riv 
generally has in mind for the Clems, but I have been considerably happier 
with my fit on the smaller one, and I certainly didn't dislike the bigger 
one any despite some perennial issues that probably arose from me messing 
with the fit adjustments too much trying to find where I liked it best. I 
do need a pretty long stem now, a 130, and I'm only using VO's Crazy Bars, 
anything as sweepy as Riv's bars would possible need longer still. But, the 
biggest thing on the bigger size was I struggled to get the saddle as far 
forward and the bars as low as I wanted. So, it ended up being one of those 
things where at a point it's easier to make a slightly too small bike 
bigger than a slightly too big one smaller.

On Wednesday, May 8, 2019 at 11:44:38 AM UTC-4, tc wrote:
>
> Curious to see if anyone rides a "1 size down" Clem H, with SH lowered a 
> bit below Riv recommendation (maybe by 4ish cm?) for improved off-roading 
> agility and standover ... esp when running fatter tires?  Obviously a 
> significantly lowered saddle wouldn't fly if you're on a long ride, but for 
> 2 hour adventures, this is an intriguing idea.
>
> Would love to hear thoughts from those who're actually riding a smaller 
> Clem or were between sizes and opted to go smaller.
>
> In my case (90.5 PBH), a 59 Clem works well for paved riding.  A 52, 
> though, still has a 61.5 ETT and frame geometry that is closer to hardtails 
> that I'd ride than the 59.
>
> Tom
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith Jr 52cm H - First preorder batch

[Zed Martinez]

Sorry, yes, sold.

On Sunday, December 9, 2018 at 1:42:49 PM UTC-5, ctifusion wrote:
>
> Sold?

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[RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith Jr 52cm H - First preorder batch

[Zed Martinez]

Sale pending. Thanks everyone for the interest and feedback.

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[RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith Jr 52cm H - First preorder batch

[Zed Martinez]

Bump, still available if anyone needs a winter project. Had to update the 
CL post for more 
details: 
https://indianapolis.craigslist.org/bik/d/rivendell-clem-smith-jr-52cm/6758376973.html

On Friday, November 2, 2018 at 9:35:18 AM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
> OK, this is still available.
>

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[RBW] Re: No love for the Albastache?

[Zed Martinez]

I don't really do any rides longer than 50 miles, so, I guess I don't know 
if I'd love them on all day rides. But for what I do, Albastaches are my 
favorite for 'high energy' riding. I built myself out of a bike for them a 
couple year ago when I got the Clem and found I didn't actually like them 
on there (far too long a top-tube, even if you can get them way up), and 
last month sorta impulse bought myself an old Centurion someone was selling 
locally just so I had something appropriate to put them back on and get 
them back in my line-up. I agree with masmojo, right about level with 
saddle and just slightly angled downward in the wings (I generally likes 
the forward extension/clamp,close bends area to look more or less parallel 
to the ground and then let the outer bends angle down naturally after the 
brake levers) is really nice. They let me get upright enough for poking my 
head up around trail traffic, and then I get to stretch out into the bends 
for the rest and sometimes that's just exactly the kind of ride I want, 
especially on lighter more-for-play bikes. I've had recurring wrist issues 
trying the full upright bars from Riv, and I've had some bars make my 
fingers go numb after a few miles, but other than probably ill-advised 
attempt at using them on the bigger Clem I've never had a spot of trouble 
with my Albastaches and hand problems. Although doing a few extra tricep 
dips a week does seem to make it easier to hold my weight off of them 
better ;)


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[RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith Jr 52cm H - First preorder batch

[Zed Martinez]

OK, this is still available.

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[RBW] Re: FS: Clem Smith Jr 52cm H - First preorder batch

[Zed Martinez]

Possible sale pending. Will update either way once it's decided.

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[RBW] FS: Clem Smith Jr 52cm H - First preorder batch

[Zed Martinez]

Hey guys. I've been hoping this would sell locally, but all the local 
interest keeps falling through so I'm accepting that I'll have to ship this 
guy. I've got my old 52cm Clem L in forest green I'd like to get off to a 
new home. Regular listers might know I switched to a 45cm L this fall after 
struggling with the 52cm being _just_ slightly too big for a couple years. 
It's also apparently slightly internet famous thanks to my blog review of 
it (http://zedmartinez.com/2016/06/rivendell-clem-smith-jr/). I'm asking 
$550 for the frameset with everything it came with except the original 
seatpost, whose angle adjustment ridges got stripped. To make it up I am 
including both of the seatposts I do have in working order that fit the 
oddball size on this. Images and details available on my languishing 
Craigslist 
posting: 
https://indianapolis.craigslist.org/bik/d/rivendell-clem-smith-jr-52cm/6723059799.html

Local pickup is still on the table for anyone who can make it to Indy. For 
anyone else I would have it packed by A1 Cyclery (our local Riv dealer) in 
its original box, and then shipped via BikeFlights. The cost for that 
packing and the shipping would be buyer's responsibility. A1 says maybe 
about $40 on the high end for their hand in it.

First time selling a frame on here, so, be patient with me maybe as I 
figure this all out.

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[RBW] Re: WTT Paul Neo-Retro for Touring

[Zed Martinez]

I've got a single Paul Touring in silver. It's pretty heavily used though, 
and one of the post bushings is a bit rough. PM for details and pictures if 
you like, if you think it'll work we can probably figure out a more than 
fair price.

On Saturday, October 20, 2018 at 1:49:48 PM UTC-4, R. Alexis wrote:
>
> No response on the a trade. Willing to buy a set (one wheels worth) Paul 
> Touring brakes in silver. Willing to consider other colors, except black. 
> Will also consider buying a bikes worth. Will probably either live with the 
> two Neo-Retro or buy a new set of Touring if I don't get a anything from 
> the list. 
>
> Thanks,
>
> Reginald Alexis
>
>
> On Tuesday, October 16, 2018 at 1:11:03 AM UTC-5, R. Alexis wrote:
>>
>> RBW list members, 
>>
>>  I am looking to trade one wheels worth, good condition Paul Neo-Retro in 
>> silver for some Paul Touring in silver. Got a bikes worth off the list a 
>> bit ago and want the Touring for the rear of a bike build I am working on. 
>> Let me know what you have. Will consider other colors, except black. 
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Reginald Alexis
>>
>

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[RBW] Re: Clem L 59 -- Considering a purchase

[Zed Martinez]

I can't speak to the big frame, but having a PBH that was right on the cusp 
of the 45/52 sizes and having now owned both, I can say that if you prefer 
upright, one-or-two hand position, casual riding you'll be happy with the 
larger size. If you prefer a more energetic ride (which apparently I do), 
you'll need to size down. The size up with everything set to the minimum is 
a big, luxurious, spacey ride. The size down with everything raised up 
feels more much zippier and more 'at hand' if that makes sense.

-Zed in Indy, who rode a 52cm for 2 years thinking he had an 80cm PBH but 
now rides a 45cm because maybe that PBH is actually 76, and really 
understands the indecision of being right at the edge of two sizes (A1 is a 
great shop, my second Clem frame was through them) 

On Friday, October 5, 2018 at 2:49:36 PM UTC-4, RDS wrote:
>
> I am thinking of getting a Clem L frame or complete bike.  
>
> The latest catalog has a min PBH of 83 for the size 59.  I am 83+/-.  
> Anyone near PBH own one and have any comments?  I am overweight, so most 
> riding will be paved paths.
>
> Looks like Gray or Green for a color choice.  Your vote?
>

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Re: [RBW] Film photography - subject matter?

[Zed Martinez]

Patrick, I have some complicated thoughts that lean often negatively about 
Roland Barthe (because, my, he could come across quite pompous), but he has 
this notion when he discusses what he likes about photography called the 
'punctum' that I find to be a very useful term, and an interesting read. 
Either via the long slug in 'Camera Lucida' itself, or readily discussed 
online. The broad stroke, though, is that in some photos for every person 
there is an element that sometimes occurs that sticks out, that 'pricks' 
the viewer, and which dominates the photo for them (in the way that draws 
them in and makes the image last). Barthes opinion if I remember is that 
the punctum has to be an accident, planned elements are contrived or flat. 
it's the accident of a detail that resonates for the viewer which the 
artist could not have known about that's what really drives great 
photography. Not quite the same as what makes a photo 'good,' but, I think 
perhaps it's a concept you'd enjoy.

Also, were those the older film Pens popular on the iBOB? I gather as much 
from the context of the thread, but Olympus loose usage of that term in 
both film and digital means I usually find it safer to ask than assume. 

On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 4:23:25 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Forgot to add that, what, 10 years ago? -- there were recurring threads on 
> the iBoblist about on-bike photography using those extremely primitive and 
> extremely cheap pen cameras, and uploading to the cloud via some very 
> primitive transfer software. Some Bobs got some very surprisingly good 
> results, given the indecently primitive nature of the cameras -- I briefly 
> owned one and got some shots uploaded to the proto-cloud with mine. Kent 
> Petersen was notable for his good results with this minimalist technology. 
> This may be an instance; at any rate, it is Kent's (he gave me permission 
> to use it for my website, which I never did).
>
>
> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 2:15 PM, Patrick Moore  > wrote:
>
>> This request added by a very definitely non-photographer: Respondents, 
>> please post some of your sample or typical photos per Philip's questions, 
>> be these bike-related or not. I have not taken the trouble to learn 
>> anything of the art beyond the grossest rudiments, but I do enjoy seeing 
>> good photography.
>>
>> [What elements make a good photograph? Subject, treatment, 
>> technicalities. Append sample. I seriously would like to see others' ideas 
>> of what is good. Me, conventional choices, no doubt: Ansel Adams, Roland 
>> and Sabrina Michaud (I still have their Afghan book), and Mirella Ricciardi 
>> (I still have her "Vanishing Africa" book), and Dorothea Lange (have it 
>> too). Back to regular programming.]
>>
>> On Mon, Sep 24, 2018 at 10:41 AM, Philip Williamson <
>> philip.w...@gmail.com > wrote:
>>
>>> I marked this OT, but changed my mind, since Grant writes about and 
>>> shoots analog film.
>>> My question isn't about gear (no surprise if it goes there, though), 
>>> it's about subject matter. I have cameras, and film, and some okay ways to 
>>> carry them on the bike (suggestions there couldn't hurt).  
>>>
>>> What I'm looking for is inspiration as I build myself a rule-set for a 
>>> film photography project. On my morning commutes, I've been keeping my eye 
>>> out for "what would I shoot if I were shooting film" moments. 
>>>
>>> 1. What do you film photographers shoot when you shoot film? Do you 
>>> approach it differently than phone camera or digital shooting?
>>> 2. Do you cycle to shoot, or is it a wholly unrelated hobby? 
>>> 3. Anybody shoot color? I want to do this now, since a friend develops 
>>> color at home using a sous vide (cooking) setup to control temps.
>>>
>>> Please link to your images, if you care to share. I'd really like to see 
>>> what the film folk are doing.
>>>
>>> Philip
>>> Santa Rosa, CA
>>>
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>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, New Mexico, Etats Unis d'Amerique
>> *
>> ***
>> *Auditis an me ludit amabilis insania?*
>>
>
>
>
> -- 
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> Other professional writing services.
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> 

[RBW] Re: Film photography - subject matter?

[Zed Martinez]

I carry a little half-frame scale-focus camera with me when I bike. I 
bought a universal camera 'bag' insert about the dimensions of my handlebar 
bag's interior and use that to make a nice pocket for it. Most of my 
'professional' time is spent supporting the local theatre scene through 
marketing photos and headshots, highly structured generally studio work. 
So, on the bike and out-and-about I like to just be looser and do what 
could possibly be stretched to 'street' but is more just snapshot. I've 
been shooting only b film, because I vastly prefer how color works in 
digital while I think black and white is really where film was in its 
strongest. Shooting b keeps me looking mostly for scenes that will render 
well in it: strong contrast where the subject is easily identified against 
competing elements, tones, geometric compositions, etc. I'll either 
identify a subject and see if they go into suitable lighting, or if I'm 
just out riding for fun if I find a good scene and light I'll stop a bit 
and see if someone comes through to finish it.

The particular half-frame I'm using (Olympus Pen D2) forces me to work 
pretty loose. Since it's just a simple rangefinder without a focus patch 
it's usually to my advantage to favor smaller apertures and a focus 
distance about 3 meters out, so, combined with the very 'approximate' 
bright finder lines, it mostly forces me to focus on looser shots than I 
would probably do with my main camera, which helps keep me considering 
different scenes and situations and helps keep me from getting too myopic 
working only in ways I'm prone to if given the right tools.

I keep some half-frame stuff on Flickr. Bit of a mixed back, some of it is 
serious photo and some just snapshots for me, I try to post a mix of stuff 
since it's a bit of a more unusual and rarer camera just for the collective 
visual 
history. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zedmartinez/albums/72157693250301830

On Monday, September 24, 2018 at 12:41:14 PM UTC-4, Philip Williamson wrote:
>
> I marked this OT, but changed my mind, since Grant writes about and shoots 
> analog film.
> My question isn't about gear (no surprise if it goes there, though), it's 
> about subject matter. I have cameras, and film, and some okay ways to carry 
> them on the bike (suggestions there couldn't hurt).  
>
> What I'm looking for is inspiration as I build myself a rule-set for a 
> film photography project. On my morning commutes, I've been keeping my eye 
> out for "what would I shoot if I were shooting film" moments. 
>
> 1. What do you film photographers shoot when you shoot film? Do you 
> approach it differently than phone camera or digital shooting?
> 2. Do you cycle to shoot, or is it a wholly unrelated hobby? 
> 3. Anybody shoot color? I want to do this now, since a friend develops 
> color at home using a sous vide (cooking) setup to control temps.
>
> Please link to your images, if you care to share. I'd really like to see 
> what the film folk are doing.
>
> Philip
> Santa Rosa, CA
>

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[RBW] Re: Thanks for Gus Grant. What's Next?

[Zed Martinez]

There was a thread a couple years back that had a lot of them, I remember 
commenting on it because I had just been doing my own trawl through the 
Readers and a lot of the info was still right at my fingertips as a 
result. 
https://groups.google.com/d/msg/rbw-owners-bunch/DTF4iVqaGPc/O9RE4HmIBQAJ

On Tuesday, September 18, 2018 at 12:38:07 PM UTC-4, Marty Gierke, 
Stewartstown PA wrote:
>
>
> . I'd love the year of release next to each name 
>
> Sounds like you just assigned yourself to some entertaining PI work. You 
> have access to all the readers, how hard could it be? 
>
>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: New Mtn Bike = Clem L for Me?

[Zed Martinez]

Yeah. I bought one of the 52cm Hs during the original preorder, figuring I 
liked hauling weight so the extra rigidity would be better. After a couple 
years and some recurring wrist and knee issues I admitted the 52 was just 
too big (I'm right on the cusp of the 45 and 52, sizewise), and decidedI 
needed to go the size down. Since I had the chance I opted to try the L 
this time, since I only ever took my H on trails once but I had several 
instances where I almost knocked the bike over trying to get a leg up over 
some tall and heavy loads on the rear rack. So far, I haven't regretted the 
switch, but, like I said, for me the Clem is my commuter and most days my 
car, so...

On Thursday, September 13, 2018 at 1:59:34 PM UTC-4, Doug H. wrote:
>
> That makes perfect sense Zed. So, you currently ride the L?
> Doug. 
>
> Sent from my iPhone
>
> On Sep 13, 2018, at 1:57 PM, Zed Martinez  > wrote:
>
> Hey Doug, having owned one of each:
>
> If for you (the generic you, not necessarily actually you) the Clem is a 
> trail/rough-road bike, and you have good flexibility, the H makes more 
> sense. It's more rigid, and very obviously shows its old MTB inspiration.
>
> If for you the Clem is a commuter and city bike, the L offers the easier 
> step-through, an easier way to carry it through doors (by grabbing the loop 
> of the frame. This has actually been way handier than I expected when I 
> switched), and somewhat less often mentioned is it makes the bike look a 
> lot more laid back for the same geometry and at least where I am drivers 
> are considerably more likely to stop and yield for me, and I get more 
> smiles from people. It gives that more 'urbane' look and there are benefits 
> to that.
>
> If you like nice details, the newer Clem L frames have the heart lug at 
> the seat tube, and that's a fancier touch.
>
>
> On Thursday, September 13, 2018 at 1:46:16 PM UTC-4, Doug H. wrote:
>>
>> I’ve been wondering what the appeal is of the L as opposed to the H Clem. 
>> Is it just the ease of stepping through/onto and off of the bike? 
>> Doug
>
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[RBW] Re: New Mtn Bike = Clem L for Me?

[Zed Martinez]

Hey Doug, having owned one of each:

If for you (the generic you, not necessarily actually you) the Clem is a 
trail/rough-road bike, and you have good flexibility, the H makes more 
sense. It's more rigid, and very obviously shows its old MTB inspiration.

If for you the Clem is a commuter and city bike, the L offers the easier 
step-through, an easier way to carry it through doors (by grabbing the loop 
of the frame. This has actually been way handier than I expected when I 
switched), and somewhat less often mentioned is it makes the bike look a 
lot more laid back for the same geometry and at least where I am drivers 
are considerably more likely to stop and yield for me, and I get more 
smiles from people. It gives that more 'urbane' look and there are benefits 
to that.

If you like nice details, the newer Clem L frames have the heart lug at the 
seat tube, and that's a fancier touch.


On Thursday, September 13, 2018 at 1:46:16 PM UTC-4, Doug H. wrote:
>
> I’ve been wondering what the appeal is of the L as opposed to the H Clem. 
> Is it just the ease of stepping through/onto and off of the bike? 
> Doug

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[RBW] Re: The ups and downs of my Clem Smith Jr

[Zed Martinez]

I'm currently riding Billies on my Clem. I've run them on two, actually, I 
recently just swapped down to a 45cm Clem after admitting to myself the 
52cm was too big, and I've tried the Billies on both. I like them best 
flipped upside down, but my wrists are still pretty fussy after a couple 
years of being just a little too stretched out too often, so, I'm riding 
them the upright way for the moment. They feel notably narrower to me than 
the Boscos did (I had the 58cm also). More aggressive, in both 
positions.Maybe it's just because as you creep up the Billies they really 
do get narrower fast, while the Boscos run more or less straight through 
the bends. The by-the-stem flats of the Boscos were a little better for 
dipping out of the wind, but the on-the-bends hooks of the Billie are less 
stress on my wrists and I can stay in them longer. The Billies come back a 
little farther for the same stem length, so, if you're already banging 
knees they won't help much with that. You could chop'em, but part of the 
appeal is they have enough length for two full hands before the bends, so, 
you can have one position behind the brake lever and one in front. I do 
like that about them a lot. For me the Billie has the more comfortable 
flare angle of the two.

On Wednesday, September 5, 2018 at 4:51:21 PM UTC-4, Jim Bronson wrote:
>
> The good news about my Clem is that I've been riding it a lot more since I 
> moved.  I now live on a busy 4 lane highway with no shoulders, so I was 
> having to either brave the traffic to get to a side street or trail, or put 
> the bike on the car, which I hate to do if I'm just going out for a fun 
> ride.  I found a gravel path behind my condo complex that goes about a 
> quarter mile to the next cross street to the highway.  From there I can 
> cross the highway and access the regional mixed terrain trail system.  
>
> The shortcut I found has got pretty rough big-ish rocks so I am loath to 
> ride my more roadish Rivendells with their relatively fragile Compass 
> tires.  The Clem though tackles this section with aplumb so I find myself 
> wheeling it out for rides more than my other bikes.  I also find the 
> traction just a little bit better on the pea gravel sections of the 
> regional trails, where the slick Compass tires might kick out a bit going 
> around a corner, the Clem and it's big Kendas track straight and true where 
> I point my wheels.  It just feels a little less squirrely, so to say.
>
> Which is a good segue into what I don't like.  I bought my 65 ClemH 
> complete and one of the things that it came with that I am not super 
> enamored of is the Bosco bars.  This may sound odd since they are 58cm wide 
> (I think) but they feel too narrow and too far back for me.  I feel like I 
> might hit them with my knees when I'm out riding.  I feel I would prefer a 
> bar with less intrusion into my midsection.  I'd also prefer something a 
> little less upright, which I think having a bar that's not so far into my 
> midsection will take care of itself.  It just doesn't feel dialed in the 
> way it is now.
>
> Looking around on Rivendell's website, I like the look of the Billie 
> bars.  I'm just not sure if 58 will be wide enough for my preference.  I'm 
> thinking maybe because they flare out a lot more and much less back than 
> the Boscos, that the 58 might be fine in this form factor.  Truth is my 
> drop bar bikes are only 48cm so having a bar not so far back like the 
> Billie would work I think
>
> Or there is the Aherne+MAP handlebar which is 61.5 cm wide in the wider 
> version.
> https://www.ahearnecycles.com/shop/ahearnemap-handlebar if you're not 
> familar.  I still have some store credit at Rivendell though so this route 
> would cost me more out of pocket.
>
> Anyone tried either of these bars on their Clem?
>
> The other thing I don't like is friction shifting.  Does Microshift or 
> SunRace make an indexed 8 speed thumbie?  I was hoping to re-use the thumb 
> pod and just get the shifter part of it, but I can only find 8 speed in 
> friction.  I could switch to Shimano 8 which would require a different 
> thumb pod or go 9 speed indexed T09 Microshift thumbies which would require 
> a 9 speed cassette and potentially a different derailer.
>
> Any thoughts?
>
> -Jim
>
>
>
> -- 
> --
> signature goes here
>

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[RBW] Re: urban/city tire rec: 650b, 38mm or so

[Zed Martinez]

Gotta second the Soma New Xpress, those were great tires. Them and Schwalbe 
Marathons are the only ones I've run on my commuting route that have gone 
flat free, and the New Xpress ride much closer to the Compass stuff than my 
current Mondials do. I've still got a set I'm not using since I switched to 
fatter tire-d rides. Sidewalls are a bit dirty but casing and tread are in 
good shape. Shoot me a message if you like, I could make a good deal on 
them to clear some space myself.

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[RBW] Re: Bar end shifters on Boscos?

[Zed Martinez]

I used the Dia Compe friction bar ends on a Bosco for about two years, 
liked it just fine, just watch your knees in tight turns. The long straight 
stretch of grippable area really lets you just slide your hand back and 
catch them with either your fingers or palm, it always felt very slick to 
me.

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[RBW] Re: Billie Clem McFlip

[Zed Martinez]

Tom, on neither the Bosco nor the Billie have I had problems with hitting 
my knees in practice, even with the long bar end shifters. Both bars are 
wide enough it's easy to keep my knees inside them during normal turning 
range stuff. If I'm trying to do a standing 180 to reverse directions 
because I'm too lazy to dismount I have to be careful then, but I feel 
that's a pretty special consideration sorta thing. They also as I have them 
setup _just_ clear the top tube if the front wheel flops while parked, so, 
woo.

A week of riding in now and it still amazes me how different a bike can 
feel by only changing the handlebars. I think I gave up a little climbing 
comfort, and the Billie isn't quite as perfect when riding en danseuse as 
the Bosco was, but I like the slightly more aggressive posture since it 
lets me properly rest some of my weight the way I like to, and it keeps my 
hips rotated at all times in a way where I feel a lot more connected to the 
bike through turns and descents, so, that might be a good set of trade-offs.

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[RBW] Re: Rack mounting on Clem

[Zed Martinez]

I just drilled out the holes on my Surly racks mounting hardware a little 
bit and bought a couple M6 bolts to mount mine on that top boss.


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[RBW] Re: Billie Clem McFlip

[Zed Martinez]

Eric, just make sure you've got enough room, the Clem's pretty long 
(especially riding it at the smallest saddle height like I do) and with my 
10cm stem the bars still almost feel too close. If your Fuji is anything 
like my old one, you'll probably need quite the stem to counter for them.

Bill, agreed. In honor of my former manager who likes bikes and motorcycles 
both and once commented one of my previous flipped bar builds looked like a 
cafe cruiser, I've been calling this look the cafe bruiser.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Billie Bar initial review

[Zed Martinez]

Eric, the catalog says it's a 1" rise/drop, so, I'll believe them on that. 

Diego, laying my old Boscos as close to on top over the clamp as I can 
manage, I'd say the Boscos come back about an inch more. Measuring, the 
Billies are 8.5" straight before they bend as advertised. The Boscos are 
closer to 7.5" before the bend, but then go closer to 9" before the clamp. 
So, Boscos more literal back reach, Billies more grip area?

On Tuesday, May 22, 2018 at 7:38:41 PM UTC-4, Eric Daume wrote:
>
> What's the actual rise/drop on the Billie? The site only says it's less 
> than the Albatross.
>
> Eric
>
> On Tue, May 22, 2018 at 12:34 PM, Diego J. Garza  > wrote:
>
>> For those of you who have tried this bar, would you say it's reach back 
>> is a little longer than Boscos? 
>>
>> Inquiring minds would like to know,
>>
>> Diego
>> pre-june gloom, los angeles, ca 
>>
>> On Monday, May 21, 2018 at 9:32:44 PM UTC-7, Brett Callahan wrote:
>>>
>>> Ive received mine and will add my first impressions. I've only mounted 
>>> and ridden around the block, so hardly a detailed review. 
>>>
>>> First, I'll need a longer stem.  These are way longer than the 
>>> albatross. A good trade considering there seems to be a full hand's worth 
>>> of real estate in front of the levers now.
>>>
>>> I like the flare.  It's noticeable coming from the albatross, but these 
>>> are still nice and swept back.  I mounted mine upside down for a slight 
>>> drop.   They'll go rightside up eventually, but this was a fun experiment.  
>>>
>>> FLEX. There's a noticeable amount of flex to these that I never 
>>> experienced with albatross bars.  It's similar to what you get with a wide 
>>> drop bar.  Could be good, could be bad, but for now it's just a little 
>>> surprising.  
>>>
>>> -- 
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>
>

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[RBW] Billie Clem McFlip

[Zed Martinez]

Sorry, in lieu of the recent conversation about the state of things, I'm 
one of the guys that's been quiet. Back when I was posting more I was in 
the middle of planning my wedding and I think the stress made me a bit 
snippy when I didn't mean to be, so, I backed out for a while. Which turned 
into a longer while, as I only have the one Riv (I keep spending all the 
money that could buy me a second on cameras, which I feel is also on-brand 
since the last two were an overhaul for an OM-2N and a Bronica ETRSI...) 
and not a lot to add most days. But now, I've got some of those new Billie 
bars all flipped on my Clem because while I came to terms with the Boscos 
they were still never really what I wanted, and since I ride my Clem on the 
'I just barely fit' side I never could quite get them as low as I wanted. 
The Billie's sounded nice and I needed a pre-summer project, so, I bought a 
pair and threw on. Since there's not a lot of pics of them out and about 
yet I brought the camera along for a few rides so far. So, consider these 
my contribution to the sum knowledge of how the new bars look.

Image album (sadly not shot on film, but maybe I'll add one once that OM-2N 
comes back...) 

There's a 3-shot pic in there of how it rides at the ends, middle, and 
hooks. On a 52cm Clem H with a 100cm Technomic Deluxe (the short one, not 
the Tallux) at minimum insertion, Billies flipped.

Note: I'm only about 5 rides in (and all reasonably short, 7 miles or 
less), so, the adjustment's maybe not final, but it feels like it's getting 
close. I also feel I can't comment too much to the ride yet, because it's 
not really enough time to get to know them, but, I can give some initial 
impressions?

1. I want to love it. I think I might. They feel very natural in a way the 
Bosco never did for me, and remind me a lot of using my Albastache on my 
old Fuji rebuild, except the come back farther and that's welcome.

2. The Clem feels a lot zippier. I don't know that it is, but it feels it 
and that definitely changes my impression of the ride. It also always keeps 
my hips rotated right so I'm getting better pedal strokes, so, it might 
prove to make the Clem faster over time just for that reason.

3. Man they make the Clem look even longer. Long and low indeed.

4. The curve of the hooks when flipped is just perfect for me. Love it. 
Can't get enough. Find myself jamming in them even when I told myself I'd 
take it easy. 

On a slightly different note, I'd been experiencing a little wrist 
stiffness on the Boscos after the winter wind tunnel effects that I think 
were because they were a little too high, and that seems to be getting 
better the past few days after the switch. If that keeps up it'll have been 
worth it for me regardless of the rest. That so far they make the bike just 
feel fun is really just a bonus, but it's a nice bonus.

-Zed, commuting away in Indianapolis



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[RBW] Re: Anyone have experience using Bosco bars?

[Zed Martinez]

I have come to love mine. I have the widest ones they sell on a 52cm Clem 
using a 100mm stem, and the grips are perfect for me. I had some initial 
problems, part of which were trying to use them like I did north roads and 
albstaches and I quickly found out that wasn't going to work. I couldn't 
set them at the same heights or angles I used for those, and I had to blank 
the slate of my mind and just set them up raw by feel. The other was I was 
using some more torpedo shaped grips and in some grips they were subtly 
killing my wrists, I switch to some cylindrical ESI chunkies and haven't 
had a single issue since. Part of why I like the cylindrical grips is for 
me part of the appeal of the Boscos is the small adjustments I can make in 
grip in the 'main' grip area, and the constant grips mean I can rest the 
heel of my palm anywhere through that section without forcing it into bad 
angles. Once I got over those humps and got everything dialed in, I found 
it was pretty comfy. The main position is very upright but still not quite 
'dutch,' I'm leaning forward a little and can tilt my pelvis like I would 
on a more aggressive bike. I have a few inches of roam for my hands within 
that position, and then the drop/bends just past the brake levers gives me 
a second position with my back more angled. Sometimes I ride that position 
just holding the bars, but I found some Dia Compe grip knobs based on a 
setup I saw here and put there to use rather like the hoods on a drop bar 
and I ride on those more often. And then the last unique grip is the 
controversial one on the flat by the stem. With the widest bars and as far 
away as they are, I actually find that wide enough. Sometimes I'd prefer a 
bit wider, but it's not a big deal. I put some cross levers down on mine to 
solve the long reach back to the brakes conundrum. I find this position 
good when I'm boogying and carrying most of my weight with my legs. It does 
get uncomfortable fast if I'm going at a more casual clip and I'll bail 
back up to the bends. And then, if you get the bars adjusted right there's 
a sorta fourth position where you rest your elbows on the main grips and 
lean in like you would for the close grip, but you don't really need to put 
weight on your hands at all. I usually cross mine over the stem and just 
let them rest. I find it hard to really put much force behind my legs while 
riding like this, but definitely use it for some short stretches if I hit a 
wicked head wind or need a breather after too much spirited boogying. 

So, obvious love for them now aside, I did find they required a lot of 
persnicketiness in adjustment for my to really 'get' them and not have 
wrist problems. Once it sorta clicked for me how I wanted them to fit to 
really use them though, they've been great. They are big and long, so, a 
lot of my happiness with them might be because the Clem was made for them. 
My Clem has an effective top tube of 61cm, and I'm not quite but almost 
burying my stem rather than having it way up (so, not closing the distance 
as much as I could be using the slack head tube angle). And even though the 
Hunq also has a long TT, it's still no Clem and on a Hunq my size I'd 
probably need at least a 110mm stem instead to start gauging my fit on. I 
can see how on a normalish frame it could be very hard to actually get a 
stem long enough for Boscos, and a lot of issues people have with them 
being too close by a lot. And all of that is with the caveat that I've 
always preferred slightly close bars, and used to ride my hybrids a size 
down to get them there. So, YMMV but I am pretty much a convert now and 
never expected to be as they were the Riv bars I liked the look and idea of 
the least on paper. In practice though, well, they've earned their keep for 
me anyway.

On Thursday, February 2, 2017 at 10:09:32 AM UTC-5, Max Bergen wrote:
>
> Thinking of putting Bosco handlebars on my hunq and want to hear what your 
> experience using them has been like. 
>
> Cheers! 
>

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Re: [RBW] 29er/700c Studded Tire Options for Clem.

[Zed Martinez]

Sorry. Dang phone. I of course meant I am trying the 584-40 A10s. 

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Re: [RBW] 29er/700c Studded Tire Options for Clem.

[Zed Martinez]

Actually, Nokian/Suomi does make the A10 which is more commuting and less off 
road oriented. I've used the 622-35 Scwalbe Winter Marathons on a previous bike 
and am now trying the 574-40 Suomi A10s on my own Clem. The A10 has fewer 
spikes than the Winter Marathon so not as grippy on ice but it seems to roll a 
lot better on dry pavement. It looks like the A10 comes in 622-40, and Peter 
White sells them.

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[RBW] Re: Q for fellow Blustery Bonzos...

[Zed Martinez]

Not quite to all your needs sadly (it's primary component is neoprene), but 
the snowmobiling 'Fog eVader' mask and some big old goggles are the only 
thing I found which work on my deep winter commutes. My route is a rail 
trail though, so, it's mostly 6 miles of head-wind I'm grunting against. 
It's one of those two-part balaclavas with what I always think of as an 
astronaut hood with no face and then the mask is separate and has a 
so-called walrus flap for venting the breath out, and a bendable nose piece 
that combines with the neoprene to make a pretty effective seal to keep 
anything from going up into the goggles. A little anti-fog on my glasses 
and it works as advertised. 

http://zedmartinez.com/samples/walrus.jpg

On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 11:55:47 AM UTC-5, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Photo of test face mask here:
> http://thegrid.ai/withabandon/question-for-fellow-blustery-bonzos
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>
> On Saturday, December 3, 2016 at 9:33:28 AM UTC-7, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>>
>> Are you a blustery bonzo? (amalgamation of gonzo and bozo and perhaps 
>> buffoon and more!) If so, what in the world have you found that at 
>> temps/winds of 10˚F and below...: 
>>
>

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[RBW] FS: Schwalbe Winter Marathon 700c x 35 pair

[Zed Martinez]

Sale pending

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[RBW] FS: Schwalbe Winter Marathon 700c x 35 pair

[Zed Martinez]

Now that I have the 650b Clem and a pair of Nokian A10s coming from Peter 
White I don't see myself using the old twitchy 700c hybrid as the winter 
ride anymore, and that leaves me with a pair of Schwalbe Winter Marathons 
I'd like to pass on to someone who could use them. 700c x 35mm, used a 
couple months of the year the past two winters, maybe 600-800 miles on them 
tops. Tread is still perfect, though the studs have gone brown. 7 studs 
missing total (3 on one, 4 on the other). One stud is mis-seated and 
probably not long for the tire. I'll need to find a box to ship them in, 
but can probably do $75 for the pair to CONUS, or I'll just do $60 for both 
if anyone is near the Indianapolis area. Pictures on request, no problem, 
and shoot me a private message if you're interested.

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[RBW] Re: Machined vs non-machined rims

[Zed Martinez]

I've never had good luck with braking power on mirror-finished rims. At 
least, the VO ones were terrible for it. I think it's something in the 
anodization that hardens them, they never seem to get their surface to 
groove and seat properly. Low stopping power and lots of noise with 4 
different types of brakes and 5 different pads. Just had one of my wheels 
rebuilt with a NMSW but also non-polished Atlas and the stopping power and 
noise have been considerably better even without going back to salmon pads. 
The one thing I found with the VO mirror polished, and maybe it'd help with 
the Grand Bois, was every other week or so I'd take the pads off and scuff 
the surface with a rasp, and then I'd have excellent and quiet stopping for 
a while until the pads wore smooth again. And every time I'd check the pads 
they'd not just be smooth, but glazed. Never had such problems with any 
other rim I ever used, and maybe the VO ones just have issues, but it's 
really put me off mirror finish rims at this points.

On Saturday, October 1, 2016 at 1:11:59 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> I have noticed very low braking power on my non-machined Grand Bois rims. 
> Even with yokozuna salmon pads.
> I am hopefully going to try kool stops. If that doesn't help, blue swiss 
> stops.

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[RBW] Re: How Rivendells are received in your city ... (was: Rivvish Shop in Santa Barbara?)

[Zed Martinez]

I got stopped the other month in my neighborhood by a guy in a car, who 
rolled his window down to ask me something. I popped my headphone out 
(which I often use in my neighborhood when off for a commute), expecting to 
have to try and give some impromptu directions as that's what usually 
happens in these interactions. He kindly repeated his question, "Is that a 
Clem Smith Jr?" And I was, I have to admit, a little floored. Apparently a 
friend of his had also bought a Riv from the local Riv dealer (A1) and he'd 
been looking. So, that was an unexpected and lovely interaction.

I've got a few other 'nice Riv!' from other Riv or bought-parts-from-Riv 
riders (I think there're at least 3 Bosco'ed bikes in my city now, 
including another green Clem that somewhat confounded me when I realized 
what I had passed). Can't comment too much on the shops though, I do my own 
wrenching for everything but wheels and most of the shops around here are 
roadie and hybrid oriented, so, I'm already the oddball. I had a service 
guy at the big and commercial but still good shop tell me I was the first 
person yet to ask the shop about 650b studs. A1 excluded (they're just a 
lot farther away and I have to plan to get to them, less good for a quick 
item like patches or tubes).

On Saturday, September 10, 2016 at 8:44:59 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> This is so odd, or perhaps I just live in a very nice city. Not only have 
> I ever gotten only praise and interest for my Rivendells and other such 
> oddities, but I've been a favorite at one of the high end, Cervelo selling, 
> Madone stocking, carbon fiber living shops in town. Owners drooled over 
> Rivendells, 1958 Herse, late '70s Ken Rogers British Racing Trik*. Local 
> roadies and grocery store doofuses all say, "Nice bike!"
>
> Hell, I even had the owner of another now defunct high end store accept 
> the 30 lb rear wheel from a 3 speed Schwinn for spoke replacement and 
> truing without a single grimace or sotto voce comment, and this was 25 
> years ago before I had any real shop cred.
>
> (Though I did have a snarky youth make a deprecating comment about my hot 
> rodded 1992 XO-1 ... Perhaps it was the purple rims and SRAM drop bar twist 
> shifters?)
>
>
> On Sat, Sep 10, 2016 at 6:19 AM, 'Chris Lampe 2' via RBW Owners Bunch <
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com > wrote:
>
>> When I first started looking into building up my own bike, I visited an 
>> LBS and in conversation I casually mentioned RBW being an influence and the 
>> owner grimaced and said something to the effect of "stay away from those 
>> Rivendells..".About a year later, I was in there again and he was 
>> showing off his new Salsa that he chose for the frame material being steel 
>> and the chainstays longer.for comfort.   
>>
>>
>>
>> On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 10:55:59 PM UTC-5, PG wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>>  Will Ashe wrote:
>>>
>>> I live in Los Angeles, and as such am intrigued. Would it be a Riv 
 dealer or just carry Riv like parts and gear?

 Will


 

>>>
>>> Will,
>>>
>>> By rivvish, I mean a shop that understands a wide variety of bike 
>>> designs, and accepts them all as valid. Or, to put it another way, a 
>>> shop where you can walk in with a Rivendell and not get laughed out the 
>>> door. (That's happened to me before.)
>>>
>>>
>>> Paul 
>>>
>> -- 
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>>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: BICYCLE 'COCKPIT'

[Zed Martinez]

Well, yanno, the Wright brothers were in bikes before they made planes... 
;) They never get enough credit for reverse-threading the left pedal so it 
stays tight over time.

But, on a more etymological level, cockpit is from boats first. It's where 
the coxswain was, and was where navigation and steering happened. Is why 
it's since been applied to planes, cars, and yes bikes. There's more to a 
cockpit than just the handlebars, though they are a component of it...

On Friday, September 9, 2016 at 7:02:09 PM UTC-4, James Valiensi wrote:
>
> GAWD This aggravates me to no end - referring to a bicycle handle bar as a 
> "cockpit". Airplanes have cockpits, bicycles have handlebars for crap's 
> sake!!!
>

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Re: [RBW] SOMA xpress tires

[Zed Martinez]

I rode the 38mm 650b New Xpress last year. Good ride, feel fast, not the best 
at cornering but not awful, they were the only tire I've ever commuted on that 
had zero flats while I ran them. Glad others have had less flats with Compass, 
but I had the flats the first month I ran them and still occasionally pick out 
small pieces of glass (I run tire liners now, I know, I know...) Clearly I just 
live in a bad area for flats, but to that end the New Xpress did not ride so 
much worse than the Compass that I wouldn't go back today if they suddenly 
existed in 48mm. They were quite tough tires for how will they rolled.

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Re: [RBW] Re: The first of what we hope are several very interesting reviews of the Clementine, from Lovely Bicycle

[Zed Martinez]

John, I think I mentioned somewhere else on here in one of my own reviews 
of the Clem (which, I won't repost here so as not to excessively hijack the 
thread, but you should be able to find them and a link to my longer write 
up if you search for'em), but, to at least answer your questions quickly:

One thing is, there's only so hard I can push myself on a bike before the 
energy demands and exertion leave me a sort of walking zombie. So, there's 
a certain cruising speed I'm good at maintaining and it's a rare day I feel 
spirited enough to really 'push' myself past it, so, there's probably some 
performance I've left on the table with previous, sportier bikes. That's 
part of it. Another part is I built my Clem from frame, and I'm using VO's 
good sealed bearing hubs and Compass tires, so, honestly, my Clem has the 
best wheels of them all. Add in the sensible gearing that works well for my 
flat homeland and the 650b wheels that let me spin up from a start really 
fast, and that's most of the difference. I mostly commute, so, coming fast 
off a stop changes my commute times considerably more than top speed ever 
will.

As for why I like it, once I learned to cope with the Boscos and work with 
them, not against them, I found I had a bike with three entirely different 
riding postures. I can be totally upright (which I like on calm mornings, 
or when I'm tired, or jockeying in traffic), I can have a more relaxed 
stance more akin to my roadster (still upright, but enough lean to engage 
all my leg muscles and get to the optimum cruising speed), and I can tuck 
down to the flat near the stem clamp for a position very similar to a 
performance hybrid (which is really great when I actually feel like putting 
some effort out, since it's really rather aero and gives me a good weight 
distribution for putting force behind my legs). Combine that with how the 
upright stance plus the long chain stays are really stellar for climbing, 
the relaxed stance at the bend is the most comfortable one I've ever had 
for mashing out of the saddle, and the long wheelbase and fat tires just 
wiping away basically all surface bumps and you can begin to guess why 
going back to a bike that will at most offer me two of those riding 
positions and half the float gets less appealing by the day...

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 9:29:52 PM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Zed
> Thanks for the clarifications.  You said everything in 1 
> paragraph.  Lovely Bicycle took more than 2 pages, along with pics, did not 
> approach your review, and still needs more time!!!John   One got to 
> question LB on the length of time.  All summer, and the review is not 
> done???  GMAB.
> I think the RBWs are great, although I don't have one. My 88 Panasonic 
> Schwinn Voyaguer rides fine and is set up in a RBW fashion.
> What do you think accounts for the fact your times are as good as or 
> better than your other bikes, and why do you enjoy the Clem more?
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>  
>  
>  
> On 09/08/16, Zed Martinez<iamzedm...@gmail.com > wrote:
>  
> John, she does say it's not the review itself. Just some initial thoughts 
> since she's already had it so long while she tries to finish figuring out 
> what makes it ride like it does without having to use the word 'magic,' and 
> also to test it's haulin' abilities a bit more. Personally, I can say with 
> 3000 miles on mine I agree with everything she's said in those initial 
> impressions. I look forward to her formal review, they have historically 
> been pretty good. It was her review of the Simcoe Roadster Signature that 
> convinced me to plunk on one a couple years back for riding with my 
> then-fiancée instead of cheaping down to the (then much better than now) 
> Trek Allant for that use.
>
> I will go ahead and go where she won't though, the Clem is magic. It's my 
> heaviest and upright bike. It feels like I'm going slower and more relaxed 
> every time I ride it, but my times are all as good as they were on any 
> other bike I've been through, sometimes faster, and I'm happier riding it 
> farther than I am any of the others. Mine's been down this week as I have 
> the front wheel rebuilt, so, I've been riding my original commuter and my 
> Simcoe, and they both just feel a little... meh, now. I think the Clem's 
> ruining other bikes for me.
>
> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 9:01:44 PM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:
>>
>> Zed
>>
>> I was referring to the "Lovely Bicycle" review.  Frankly, the write ups 
>> by the list members are better.  The review seemed to have wandered.
>>
>> John Hawrylak
>> Woodstown NJ
>>
>> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 6:57:18 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>>> pb - I use mine with a shorter stem (10cm, not 12 or 13cm) and don'

[RBW] Re: The first of what we hope are several very interesting reviews of the Clementine, from Lovely Bicycle

[Zed Martinez]

John, she does say it's not the review itself. Just some initial thoughts 
since she's already had it so long while she tries to finish figuring out 
what makes it ride like it does without having to use the word 'magic,' and 
also to test it's haulin' abilities a bit more. Personally, I can say with 
3000 miles on mine I agree with everything she's said in those initial 
impressions. I look forward to her formal review, they have historically 
been pretty good. It was her review of the Simcoe Roadster Signature that 
convinced me to plunk on one a couple years back for riding with my 
then-fiancée instead of cheaping down to the (then much better than now) 
Trek Allant for that use.

I will go ahead and go where she won't though, the Clem is magic. It's my 
heaviest and upright bike. It feels like I'm going slower and more relaxed 
every time I ride it, but my times are all as good as they were on any 
other bike I've been through, sometimes faster, and I'm happier riding it 
farther than I am any of the others. Mine's been down this week as I have 
the front wheel rebuilt, so, I've been riding my original commuter and my 
Simcoe, and they both just feel a little... meh, now. I think the Clem's 
ruining other bikes for me.

On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 9:01:44 PM UTC-4, John Hawrylak wrote:
>
> Zed
>
> I was referring to the "Lovely Bicycle" review.  Frankly, the write ups by 
> the list members are better.  The review seemed to have wandered.
>
> John Hawrylak
> Woodstown NJ
>
> On Thursday, September 8, 2016 at 6:57:18 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
>> pb - I use mine with a shorter stem (10cm, not 12 or 13cm) and don't have 
>> any problem with flex. The long stems plus the Clem still slightly confuse 
>> me for most uses, the whole reason for the extra length of the Clem's 
>> effective top tube length I gathered from the long development history was 
>> so you could use the Boscos comfortably without having to use the longest 
>> stem going. My 52cm Clem with 10cm stem is about the same as using the 
>> Boscos as a 54cm Hunq with a 13cm stem on paper.
>>
>> John - Which reviewer, Velouria (lovelybicycle) or Annie? Velouria has a 
>> weird history with Rivs, but she's probably the biggest blogger going in 
>> the non standard bike scene, she has ridden and reviewed a lot of bikes in 
>> the Clem demographic.
>>
>> On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>>
>>>
>>> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2016/09/clementine-belated-befuddled-bedazzled.html
>>>
>>>
>>> -- 
>>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>>> Other professional writing services.
>>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>>> Patrick Moore
>>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>>> *
>>> ***
>>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>>
>>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>>
>>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>>
>>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *
>>> Aristotle
>>>
>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: The first of what we hope are several very interesting reviews of the Clementine, from Lovely Bicycle

[Zed Martinez]

pb - I use mine with a shorter stem (10cm, not 12 or 13cm) and don't have 
any problem with flex. The long stems plus the Clem still slightly confuse 
me for most uses, the whole reason for the extra length of the Clem's 
effective top tube length I gathered from the long development history was 
so you could use the Boscos comfortably without having to use the longest 
stem going. My 52cm Clem with 10cm stem is about the same as using the 
Boscos as a 54cm Hunq with a 13cm stem on paper.

John - Which reviewer, Velouria (lovelybicycle) or Annie? Velouria has a 
weird history with Rivs, but she's probably the biggest blogger going in 
the non standard bike scene, she has ridden and reviewed a lot of bikes in 
the Clem demographic.

On Tuesday, September 6, 2016 at 7:26:19 PM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
>
> http://lovelybike.blogspot.com/2016/09/clementine-belated-befuddled-bedazzled.html
>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Behind seat tube frame pump / mount for Clementine 59

[Zed Martinez]

Hey again! I've been using a Topeak Road Morph G on mine, the provided 
mounting bracket works a champ. I tried an HPX but couldn't find a 
placement I liked on the Clem, and, if we're being honest, I like the mini 
floor pump design of the Topeak better anyway.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/zedmartinez/25820838866/

On Wednesday, August 31, 2016 at 12:04:23 AM UTC-4, Clementine59 wrote:
>
> Looking for suggestions or hacks for a rattle-free setup behind the seat 
> tube on a Clementine 59. At the moment, I'm considering the Zefal HPX pump 
> mounted with Zefal or Twofish blocks/straps. 
>

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[RBW] Re: Mirror mounting on bullmoose bars?

[Zed Martinez]

And after I posted this I looked at the photo again and was reminded it got 
bent when the bike fell over this week, so I went ahead and gave my 
extension arm a new screw so I could show the extension too. It takes an 
8/32 screw (I'm using a 3" one with two metal spacers and a nut to extend 
it). The brake clamps/knobs needed a 60mm M5 bolt in my case (which I had 
to buy bulk, so if anyone else needs one or two just PM me and I'll try and 
remember to put a stamp on an envelope and send some out).

http://zedmartinez.com/samples/IMG_1106.jpg

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 2:08:19 PM UTC-4, Joe Bernard wrote:
>
> Or that! Nice work, Zed, that's a brilliant idea. 

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[RBW] Re: Mirror mounting on bullmoose bars?

[Zed Martinez]

If you have the mounting bracket off an old road-style brake lever body, 
you can take the screw out of the insertion portion of the Mirrycle, saw 
the tapered stem off, then get an appropriate bolt to go through the mirror 
mount and into the brake clamp and tighten it down. I did basically that 
except instead of just a clamp I had a Dia-Compe grip knob, but the basic 
concept is more or less the same. Or, if you can find more of those grip 
knobs (they're getting scarce), they make excellent mounts for the 
Mirryclle, as well as offering a nice resting position for the Clem.

https://www.flickr.com/photos/zedmartinez/29244142845/in/dateposted-public/

On Sunday, August 28, 2016 at 12:03:02 PM UTC-4, Clementine59 wrote:
>
> Hi,
>
> I've been riding my Clementine with the Riv German mirror and find the 
> distorted image unusable for street riding, despite trying every 
> conceivable orientation. I actually have two copies of this mirror and they 
> are the same - i.e., a very fine hair better than nothing. I love the 
> Mirrycle mirrors on my other bikes and need to figure out a way to mount 
> one securely to the Clementine's bullmoose bars. I'd appreciate receiving 
> any suggestions / descriptions of mirror hacks / suggestions for clamp-on 
> Mirrycle-like mirrors before I whip out the Dremel tool in an attempt to 
> construct a German-Mirrycle hybrid. 
>
> Thanks!
>

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[RBW] Re: Rivendell NY media hit

[Zed Martinez]

I've got a grassy hill pretty similar to that one from the ride out here, 
clearly I should make sure I have the nerve to descend it before I get out 
there for a ride.

-Zed 'jealous of that idyllic scenery' Martinez

On Friday, June 24, 2016 at 9:48:56 AM UTC-4, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Of course: http://bikesnobnyc.blogspot.com/
>
> Interesting read.
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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[RBW] Re: A bit offtopic discussion of RivBike's shipping times

[Zed Martinez]

I work for a company that does internet and mail-order. We don't use USPS 
for much of anything unless the customer signs off on it because even when 
you have a tracking and guarantee they're not worth much if the package 
gets lost or delayed, and delayed packages are much more the norm than not 
when we do use them. UPS and FedEx cost more, but their tracking works and 
they have much more accountability when something goes wrong. If Riv's 
experience has been similar in the least I don't blame them for choosing 
safe but expensive, I'd do the same thing.

On Thursday, June 23, 2016 at 6:22:49 PM UTC-4, Belopsky wrote:
>
> Ordered gloves, ferrules, a couple washers..
>
> $9 for surepost.
>
> And estimate delivery? July 1st. Ridiculous, right?
>
> All of those items would fit into a flat rate envelope and be here in 3 
> days vis USPS.
>
> Grant, hope you and others are listening.
>
>
> Thoughts everyone?
>

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[RBW] Re: Clem Smith Jr, 7 month and 2200 miles in

[Zed Martinez]

OK, I remembered how to set my camera for intervals and once the lens 
cleared up because dang it's humid out there, I got some shots of 1) my 
setup as close to proper Riv non-wide angle level as I could in a hurry, so 
you can see my relationship of saddle and stem height and all that goodness 
for how I like the Boscos dialed in. 2) Me riding in the main upright grip 
3) Me on the knobs and 4) me on the flats with a little tuck going on. 4 
was hard to to time and show me in the posture I tend to be in but also 
centered right in the frame. 

http://zedmartinez.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/boscos.jpg

I think using Thorn's posture system because it's my favorite being 
independent of bar type as it is, that give me Very Relaxed, Relaxed, and 
Fairly Sporty maybe as my 3 main 
postures? 
http://zedmartinez.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/CapturFiles-201606174_1806.png

Patrick, I would say pondering it as I took these photos and on my ride 
home, I think for that last one to work I need the Boscos closer and lower. 
That's basically a flat bar stance and so far I've always found that to be 
most comfortable when the stem clamp is at or below the saddle height, and 
with a longer stem I would need it to be a couple inches higher than the 
saddle to get the same reach, and by that point I find I'm sticking my arms 
more straight out and my triceps get really tired, I need to be able to 
lean my weight down onto the bar in that stance for it to really get 
comfortable for me. 

I will also say it's pretty narrow and not great for accelerating from a 
stop, at stops I'll bounce up into the primary grip and then usually 
accelerate from the bends/knobs because I can curl my fingers around there 
very naturally and pull up some on the bar to keep me ground as I mash if I 
choose to do so standing on the pedals as opposed to spinning up. If I'm 
spinning up I'll stay in the primary grip where I can shift faster. 

Hope any of that helps anyone any.

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[RBW] Re: Clem Smith Jr, 7 month and 2200 miles in

[Zed Martinez]

Hey Patrick. I have a picture here for 
reference: https://www.flickr.com/photos/zedmartinez/25692901481/

I use the usual primary grip area on mine for slow, casual, or street 
riding. When I'm at crusing speed, I use the bend with the knobs. I am 100% 
certain I would not enjoy using that grip without them, because I would be 
constantly sliding forwards and that'd be hard on my forearm muscles. On 
top of the brake lever clamp is a nice inbetween I use sometimes to change 
what part of my hand is getting pressure, and I find I can rotate my hands 
closer to the tops of the bar and not the sides while I'm there, which can 
give my wrists a break. At the stem I prefer as wide as I can get with the 
outer blades of my hands sitting against the rises.

It's worth pointing out that I'm only using a 10cm quill. I think if I had 
the extra 2cm the bullmoose does I would find the knobs/flats grips too far 
away for me to really maximize their comfort. There was definitely a point 
in the adjustment where they were too far away (oddly because they were too 
high at that time) and they didn't speak to me at all. I guess I could add 
to the criticisms of the complete Clem package that the bullmoose negates 
the benefit of the long TT in letting you dial in the reach with a stem, 
and locks you in to only doing it by height which does have the side effect 
of making the primary grip the only one that might be fully comfortable for 
some riders and adjustments, where as a Bosco plus separate stem would let 
the reach be dialed in independent of the height, or rather in tandem with 
it.

On Wednesday, June 22, 2016 at 4:30:16 PM UTC-4, Deacon Patrick wrote:
>
> Question for those of you with Clem/entine Boscos:
>
> What hand positions do you use for what situations?
>
> My daughters ride nearly all the time in the full upright position. They 
> can switch and have tried other hand positions, but find it disconcerting 
> to do so. They are still growing into the frame (a medium and they are at 
> the upper end of small in sizing now), so that could be contributing to 
> their discomfort in the two forward positions. They describe the near the 
> stem forward position as very twitchy (at it looks it). 
>
> With abandon,
> Patrick
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Zed Martinez]

I'm running Switchbacks Mark, but mine's totally just noob mistakes. I 
never pedal through turns, but I'd also never had a bike where I had to pay 
any particular thought to raising the inside pedal before the turn. I mean, 
I've scraped the end of a few before, but on the Clem that sucker just 
slammed into the ground and about knocked the bike over the first time I 
took that little crest lazily. In my case, I guess I didn't so much have to 
raise my cornering game as bother to bring one at all. Like masmojo, quick 
to adjust for it, but yeah. It probably does come down to both the lowish 
BB and the tendency for the wheels to straddle obstacles. No big deal at 
all, if amusing for trail users when I forget, but definitely a thing I had 
to start paying attention to for the first time as just a commuter.

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 5:01:29 PM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> Hmm. I have not been riding the Clementine off road and I doubt I have 
> your off-road skills. I can see where the bike could get "hung up" 
> especially on a grade. But speed bumps with no lean, that would be purely a 
> bb height issue, no? Are you guys both running the Compass Switchbacks? Are 
> they appreciably less tall than the stock Kendas?
>
> On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 4:26:18 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>>
>> Actually,  the problem I am having is more of an issue with uneven 
>> surfaces, although the turning plays into it as well. The further the 
>> wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can stick up between 
>> them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.  Generally,  you you 
>> anticipate this and level your pedals until you clear that area, but in 
>> said circumstance mentioned earlier with getting the front wheel over 
>> objects,  many times I will clear it with my front wheel to find my pedals 
>> strike the object which tends to suddenly stop me dead in my tracks! I used 
>> to race mountain bikes so I have fair bike handling skills,  I don't have 
>> this issue on any other bike and generally not on the Clementine,  but it 
>> does bite me from time to time. I've also scraped the pedals on speed bumps 
>> which is odd, because I've never had an issue hitting them before.  Ive 
>> learned my lesson though,  haven't done that in a while. 
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Zed Martinez]

>
> The further the wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can 
> stick up between them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.


That actually sounds about right to me. Most of my pedal strikes have been 
when cresting a short rise at a T onto the local trail that gets suddenly 
steep the last two feet or so, so on my Clem the front wheel and rear are 
often on different sides of that crest. Makes sense to me, hearing someone 
else say it. 

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 4:26:18 PM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> Actually,  the problem I am having is more of an issue with uneven 
> surfaces, although the turning plays into it as well. The further the 
> wheels are apart the more likely that a bump or object can stick up between 
> them and you pedal can hit it while it rotates around.  Generally,  you you 
> anticipate this and level your pedals until you clear that area, but in 
> said circumstance mentioned earlier with getting the front wheel over 
> objects,  many times I will clear it with my front wheel to find my pedals 
> strike the object which tends to suddenly stop me dead in my tracks! I used 
> to race mountain bikes so I have fair bike handling skills,  I don't have 
> this issue on any other bike and generally not on the Clementine,  but it 
> does bite me from time to time. I've also scraped the pedals on speed bumps 
> which is odd, because I've never had an issue hitting them before.  Ive 
> learned my lesson though,  haven't done that in a while. 

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[RBW] Re: Any benefits to the longer CS's?

[Zed Martinez]

I'd have to measure my roadster to compare, maybe I'll do so when I get 
home. It's not a short bike, but not as long as the Clem certainly. I feel 
like the BB drop plus the Sylvans is still most of it though, it's only 
been a problem when I'm turning on a grade. With a BB drop of 67, and a 
theoretical wheel radius with tire of 340, that leaves me 273mm clearance. 
My crank arms are 170mm, so, that only leaves 103mm. I'm not sure how tall 
the Sylvan is, but, that makes the ground clearance under 4" before I even 
start turning, and with a pedal that wide, I guess I'm not surprised it 
strikes if I'm making a 90º turn at the top of a few degrees grade. Not 
sure if the chain stays really come into it. I'll measure my other upright 
bike when I get home, it also has 170mm arms and Sylvans, but isn't nice 
enough to spec its BB drop for me online. I can say it's already got a 6mm 
advantage though, being 700cx35 instead of 650bx48. Ah well, not worth 
speculating, I can just measure'em later and see, but I think my money is 
more on the frame-proportoinal wheel sizes combined with those low drops.

On Monday, June 20, 2016 at 11:49:41 AM UTC-4, masmojo wrote:
>
> You know one thing that's been perplexing me on my Clementine is the 
> amount of pedal strike I've been getting.  Odd because,  the BB drop, crank 
> length, etc. isn't really measurably different from several other bikes I 
> own that I have no such issue with!?
> Then this morning I was reading Zed's review and he mentioned pedal strike 
> as well! (And here I thought it was just me) Something about the way I 
> built it!? Then the light bulb went on! The long chain stays/wheel base are 
> contribuing to the pedal strike problem! Ah! Makes perfect sense now!
>

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Re: [RBW] Clem Smith Jr, 7 month and 2200 miles in

[Zed Martinez]

I gotta stop repyling to these things after a certain time of night ;) 
Thanks for the grammar reminder. I think I meant people being *chafed* by 
the idea of liners, and then I read your other post and my typing took a 
detour on me. 

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Re: [RBW] Clem Smith Jr, 7 month and 2200 miles in

[Zed Martinez]

r. 
>
> But your review, and that of many others on this list, is beginning to 
> convince me that Grant has hit a sweet spot of design with sweep back bars, 
> long tts, and long chainstays. I'd really like to test ride a Clem or 
> Appaloosa. 
>
> So, once again, thanks for your excellent review.
>
> 2 addenda, or rather addita: 
>
> 1. Compass tires are so wonderful that it really is a shame to depreciate 
> their ride quality with liners. Please consider using Orange Seal in your 
> tubes.
>
> 2. I urge everyone to keep the wonderfullness of drop bars in mind. I 
> personally find them more comfortable than any other sort of bar -- I've 
> *not* use the Albastache, Bosco, and all the other post 2010 or so 
> sweepbacks that Rivendell has produced, so I am keeping an open mind about 
> these.
>
> But drop bars have been around for well over 100 years for very good 
> reasons, and some of the more recent resuscitations produced by Compass and 
> Velo Orange -- I have particularly in mind the Maes Parallel and the Rando 
> type bars (VO's nomenclature is somewhat different than Compasses) are 
> exceptionally and superlatively comfortable. I use the Maes Parallel or VO 
> copy on all 3 of my customs (the 3d is a Matthews "road bike for dirt). 
> Please keep in mind (all you who read this) that drop bars can be 
> superlatively comfortable if well designed and well positioned. 
>
> On Sat, Jun 18, 2016 at 7:07 PM, Patrick Moore <bert...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> I'm in the middle of your review, and I think it is very well done, but I 
>> interrupt myself here to say:
>>
>> DON'T USE TIRE LINERS!!! My God, man! No tire liners on *Compass 
>> tires* Use Orange Seal in your tubes instead. 
>>
>> I very briefly used Mr Tuffys with non-Tourguard Paselas, and after about 
>> 1 commute, took them out -- I could feel the drag.
>>
>> More in the offing.
>>
>> On Fri, Jun 17, 2016 at 8:36 PM, Zed Martinez <iamzedm...@gmail.com 
>> > wrote:
>>
>>> After switching from my original albastache build to boscos a while back 
>>> and getting some more mileage and longer rides under me, I keep meaning to 
>>> do a proper medium-term write-up on the Clem and just kept being too busy 
>>> to do it. I finally had a quiet evening to sit down and apparently I had a 
>>> lot more to say about my past 7 months with the Clem than I expected, so, 
>>> I'll spare everyone the wall of text, but if you're 4,000 words curious 
>>> about Riv's economy bruiser, boy do I have a blog post for you. 
>>>
>>> The short version is: I probably could have just titled this 'How I Got 
>>> Over My Own Hubris and Learned to Love the Bosco'
>>>
>>> http://zedmartinez.com/2016/06/rivendell-clem-smith-jr/
>>>
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>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> *
>> ***
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>> circumference on the contours of which all conditions, distinctions, and 
>> individualities revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
>>
>
>
> -- 
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> Other professional writing services.
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> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> 

[RBW] Re: Clem Smith Jr, 7 month and 2200 miles in

[Zed Martinez]

>
> but I suppose Riv Riders tend to buy up as the years go by anyway
>

You know, I thought about this too, and the thing with the Clem is you 
can't really buy up in the line from it, in a way. The Joe and Hunq are 
both similar in their ways, but not really the same. The Joe is lighter and 
has a much lighter fork especially. And even if the Hunq gets longer stays, 
it won't have the longer top tube that makes adjusting the reach on the 
Boscos so nice or the really open out of the saddle space the Clem has. On 
paper anyway, I haven't got to ride either in person and that is always 
capable of making the on-paper irrelevant :P I was talking with my buddy 
about it a long ride on Memorial Day, about how now that I had things 
dialed in I was having a real hard time understanding what a Hunq or an 
Atlantis (both rides I considered before the Clem preorder went up) would 
offer me other than lugs, and maybe now if anything what I'd want down the 
road is just a custom with Clemmy geo but fully lugged and with the full 
paint job, but then I'd probably get shy about using it like a daily 
workhorse like that and then that'd make me sad. 

But, like I said, it does have me considering a Sam to replace the lighter 
'stached build it replaced. But, I think I've got a couple more years of 
riding this one to pay myself back in sweat before I'm ready to finance 
that one. Which is good, I should be good and ready to appreciate a lighter 
ride buy then. Maybe with the Clem doing so well it'll even be the first 
bike I build where I stop at fenders and maybe a Mark's rack, and don't 
overbuild in the name of 'but what if 30 miles out I need to...'   

Michael, it was your comparison of the Clem and Joe and the Boscos there 
that made me go 'I had that exact opinion too just a very short time ago' 
and reminded me I keep not getting these thoughts down. I almost replied on 
your thread but didn't want to hijack it. So, glad it makes you want to try 
them, but really, thanks for being the seed that got me to write this.

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[RBW] Re: Upright road riders tell me your fit setup please.

[Zed Martinez]

1. Flat, mostly. Windy. Occasional hill.
2. Clem, Bosco, 100mm stem
2 again. Commuting and other vehicular cycling up to 60 miles a day on 
occasion
3. The angle of my saddle basically forms a continuous line going into the 
bars, so, bars a bit above saddle and ends of bars about even with saddle 
nose. B17, the C17 was too narrow sitting as upright as the Boscos for my 
sit bones. But that's going to be a you thing, some might even want a wider 
seat still. The other metrics are independent of the bars, your saddle 
should be at a height and fore/aft where your hips don't rock and you don't 
have pain on the top or bottom of any knee. I can also usually judge 
fore/aft by whether or not I have to force myself to slide back and not sit 
on the nose when pedaling with some force (as this tends to slide me 
naturally into an optimum leg extension). Adjust tilt until no rubbing in 
the soft bits. All of my bikes are at slightly different adjustments 
because of different saddles, pedals, seat angles, etc. Once you get your 
butt and knees happy, the reach is dialed in with stem. I like a 100mm on 
the Clem's long tube, on a Sam I'd probably start with a 120 for myself and 
see how it goes.
4. Rode all winter in 20mph winds and 40mph gusts, as low as 7 degrees F 
actual and somewhere in the negatives with wind chill. Long undies, wool 
base layer, a Showers Pass Amsterdam jacket, and rain pants over my pants 
pretty well kept the wind out. In the really cold stuff, two layers of long 
johns for the thighs and crotch.

On Friday, June 17, 2016 at 11:38:43 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> Thinking of trying Boscos on my Sam. I like my drops setups. But thinking 
> an upright setup will be fun for on-road riding, too. I do commuting, 
> errands, centuries, recreational on-road riding.
>
> But it is hilly around here and was wondering what you hilly upright 
> riders do for your upright bike setups that works for you.
>
> I know this is a highly individual thing, but interested to see what works 
> for you.
>
> Please mention:
> 1. Terrain you ride in.
> 2. What model bike and upright handlebar.
> 2. What type of on-road riding you do (commutes, errands, centuries, 
> brevets, touring, recreational road riding).
> 3. Fit:
>  a) Your bar height to saddle height
>  b) seat fore and aft (KOPS?, saddle slammed all the way back on 
> the rails Riv-style, etc.?)
>  c) saddle height ( I guess most of you use the Riv method of 
> PBH-11cm?).
>  d) what kinda saddle and how do you tilt it?
>
> 4. Also, what do you do in winter so you don't get blasted with wintry 
> blasts when riding? My thighs and shoulders get cranky when I ride too long 
> in the cold, and upright just opens them up to more direct wintry wind 
> punishment.
>
>

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[RBW] Clem Smith Jr, 7 month and 2200 miles in

[Zed Martinez]

After switching from my original albastache build to boscos a while back 
and getting some more mileage and longer rides under me, I keep meaning to 
do a proper medium-term write-up on the Clem and just kept being too busy 
to do it. I finally had a quiet evening to sit down and apparently I had a 
lot more to say about my past 7 months with the Clem than I expected, so, 
I'll spare everyone the wall of text, but if you're 4,000 words curious 
about Riv's economy bruiser, boy do I have a blog post for you. 

The short version is: I probably could have just titled this 'How I Got 
Over My Own Hubris and Learned to Love the Bosco'

http://zedmartinez.com/2016/06/rivendell-clem-smith-jr/

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Re: [RBW] Handlebar 'clicking' with shim

[Zed Martinez]

An argument could possibly be made if using a steel handlebar in an 
aluminum quill (or the other way around) to prevent, whas-called, galvanic 
corrosion isn't it? The same reason forgetting to grease a quill adequately 
can lead to it getting stuck in the steerer. In my case, yeah, just doing 
it for the clicking.

On Sunday, March 20, 2016 at 4:51:33 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
>
> Greasing is just the suggested fix for a creaky stem/bar interface.
>
> Dont know if any benefit otherwise.
>

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[RBW] Re: Handlebar 'clicking' with shim

[Zed Martinez]

Darnit, running through the mental inventory of what's down in my shop I do 
have a Specialized-branded Nitto 100mm 25.4 quill. If I wasn't so tired 
last week I'd have been smart and just used that. Alright, sounds like I'll 
just weather the nuisance of breaking half the bar down and switching over 
to the smart pick for stem, then. Thanks all.

On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 2:31:05 PM UTC-4, Philip Kim wrote:
>
> I agree with David. Whenever I went to 26.0 to 25.4 using a shim, it 
> hasn't had the best results. But I would probably use loctite over grease.
>
> On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 1:48:17 PM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> David, I know. And someday, maybe. Next time the cables need replacing. 
>> Put a lot of money on the card switching over to the Bosco cockpit as was 
>> (and a month before my wedding, at that) just to keep things copacetic 
>> since it's my daily commuter. Good stems aren't entirely cheap or easy to 
>> justify when you already have a small collection of them. And then, the 
>> clicking didn't set in until about a week after I'd got comfortable with 
>> everything and finished building the bars out. So, now it's also just not 
>> worth undoing the hours of wrapping and shellacking just to stop a small 
>> ticking sound sometimes.
>>
>> Lungimsam, everything's crack free. Just put it together a couple weeks 
>> ago. The Boscos and the shim are brand new, the stem only has 8 months of 
>> use on it from being new last year. Definitely think it's just the metal 
>> sandwich. Was worried about the grease too because of the shim, which is 
>> why I was pondering maybe more of the Loctite 609 I picked up for the 
>> seatpost after reading a different thread on here, or something similar 
>> that'd fill the metal-on-metal contact but maybe also help lock it in 
>> rather than the opposite.
>>
>> On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 1:38:06 PM UTC-4, David Banzer wrote:
>>>
>>> Hi Zed,
>>> Not what you're asking, but I'd get a 25.4mm stem. I really don't care 
>>> for shimming handlebars and would rather get the appropriate clamp size 
>>> stem. I think folks' use the Loctite trick for sleeved bars, which a 
>>> shimmed Bosco would be similar to. 
>>> David
>>> Chicago
>>>
>>> On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 12:23:54 PM UTC-5, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Just to pick the minds of y'all wonderful people. I'm trying Bosco 
>>>> regulars on my Clem after a rough winter of strong headwinds proving the 
>>>> albastaches and my wrists weren't getting along when used on the Clem. I 
>>>> already had a 100mm Technomic Deluxe around I'd use with the albas on a 
>>>> different build, so, I just opted to use that with a shim for the Boscos. 
>>>> Fit is fine, and it clamps perfectly fine (not getting any bar rotation 
>>>> even with the Boscos leverage). Only problem, if you can call it that, is 
>>>> leaning weight on the very ends of the bars will cause a faint clicking 
>>>> sound at the clamp in the cooler weather, I'm guessing because of the shim 
>>>> sandwich. Anyone know any ways to mitigate that short of a different stem? 
>>>> The bars are quite built up and it'd be really annoying tearing them down 
>>>> just to fix a clicking. Would maybe a drop or two of something from 
>>>> Loctite's catalog help you think?
>>>>
>>>

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[RBW] Re: Handlebar 'clicking' with shim

[Zed Martinez]

I always do that anyway, Lungimsam. I bike year round in some wet schlock, 
so I usually just slather the quill and wedge in grease and wipe off any 
that gets squeegeed out. I've had to pull seized aluminum quills out of a 
steel steerer before and it's certainly not an experience I'm eager to 
repeat.

On Saturday, March 19, 2016 at 2:13:40 PM UTC-4, Lungimsam wrote:
>
> And slap alot of grease on the quill and wedge, too for anything that sits 
> in the steerer tube.

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[RBW] Re: Handlebar 'clicking' with shim

[Zed Martinez]

Mine was just creaking is I light to moderately rested weight on the ends 
of the bars while sitting. Not a major problem, for sure. But darn was it 
getting under my skin. I found the old 25.4 quill I had in the same reach 
(shorter quill, but hey, I was nearly slamming the Boscos anyway...) Got it 
on last night and remembered to give the inside of the clamp a good coat of 
grease before tightening it all down. Seems OK so far, but as always, I'm 
sure time will tell.

On Saturday, March 19, 2016 at 8:21:13 AM UTC-4, Ron Mc wrote:
>
> I have two bikes with Technomic stems - they both creak when I stand on 
> them
>

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[RBW] Re: Handlebar 'clicking' with shim

[Zed Martinez]

David, I know. And someday, maybe. Next time the cables need replacing. Put 
a lot of money on the card switching over to the Bosco cockpit as was (and 
a month before my wedding, at that) just to keep things copacetic since 
it's my daily commuter. Good stems aren't entirely cheap or easy to justify 
when you already have a small collection of them. And then, the clicking 
didn't set in until about a week after I'd got comfortable with everything 
and finished building the bars out. So, now it's also just not worth 
undoing the hours of wrapping and shellacking just to stop a small ticking 
sound sometimes.

Lungimsam, everything's crack free. Just put it together a couple weeks 
ago. The Boscos and the shim are brand new, the stem only has 8 months of 
use on it from being new last year. Definitely think it's just the metal 
sandwich. Was worried about the grease too because of the shim, which is 
why I was pondering maybe more of the Loctite 609 I picked up for the 
seatpost after reading a different thread on here, or something similar 
that'd fill the metal-on-metal contact but maybe also help lock it in 
rather than the opposite.

On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 1:38:06 PM UTC-4, David Banzer wrote:
>
> Hi Zed,
> Not what you're asking, but I'd get a 25.4mm stem. I really don't care for 
> shimming handlebars and would rather get the appropriate clamp size stem. I 
> think folks' use the Loctite trick for sleeved bars, which a shimmed Bosco 
> would be similar to. 
> David
> Chicago
>
> On Friday, March 18, 2016 at 12:23:54 PM UTC-5, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> Just to pick the minds of y'all wonderful people. I'm trying Bosco 
>> regulars on my Clem after a rough winter of strong headwinds proving the 
>> albastaches and my wrists weren't getting along when used on the Clem. I 
>> already had a 100mm Technomic Deluxe around I'd use with the albas on a 
>> different build, so, I just opted to use that with a shim for the Boscos. 
>> Fit is fine, and it clamps perfectly fine (not getting any bar rotation 
>> even with the Boscos leverage). Only problem, if you can call it that, is 
>> leaning weight on the very ends of the bars will cause a faint clicking 
>> sound at the clamp in the cooler weather, I'm guessing because of the shim 
>> sandwich. Anyone know any ways to mitigate that short of a different stem? 
>> The bars are quite built up and it'd be really annoying tearing them down 
>> just to fix a clicking. Would maybe a drop or two of something from 
>> Loctite's catalog help you think?
>>
>

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[RBW] Handlebar 'clicking' with shim

[Zed Martinez]

Just to pick the minds of y'all wonderful people. I'm trying Bosco regulars 
on my Clem after a rough winter of strong headwinds proving the albastaches 
and my wrists weren't getting along when used on the Clem. I already had a 
100mm Technomic Deluxe around I'd use with the albas on a different build, 
so, I just opted to use that with a shim for the Boscos. Fit is fine, and 
it clamps perfectly fine (not getting any bar rotation even with the Boscos 
leverage). Only problem, if you can call it that, is leaning weight on the 
very ends of the bars will cause a faint clicking sound at the clamp in the 
cooler weather, I'm guessing because of the shim sandwich. Anyone know any 
ways to mitigate that short of a different stem? The bars are quite built 
up and it'd be really annoying tearing them down just to fix a clicking. 
Would maybe a drop or two of something from Loctite's catalog help you 
think?

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clem vs. Joe A, sizing...

[Zed Martinez]

OK, from RR41:

"The Sam may be even more versatile than the AHH, because the
tubing is slightly thicker (same gauge as the Atlantis), so it more suited
to loaded touring. With AHH clearance, Atlantis tubing gauges, and a
fork that splits the diff, you can think of it as halfway between the
Atlantis and A. Homer Hilsen."

Though, that was 7 years ago now, so, is always possible something has 
changed in there since then.

On Monday, March 14, 2016 at 2:25:39 PM UTC-4, Jim D Massachusetts wrote:
>
> My recollection is that the tubes were heavier on the Hillborne.   
>  Jim D.  Massachusetts
>
> On Monday, March 14, 2016 at 12:41:38 AM UTC-4, James Warren wrote:
>>
>>
>> Not sure about the Chev/Clem part of your questions, but regarding 
>> Hillborne/Homer, you are basically right. The only detail I'll add is that 
>> the Hillborne was introduced as a bike that is halfway between Homer and 
>> Atlantis. Having ridden both, I think Homer is faster.
>>
>>
>> On Mar 13, 2016, at 6:19 PM, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> Wasn't the Hillborne more or less literally just a Homer-like bike with 
>> the expanded geo/fewer sizes and made in Taiwan things? That was the 
>> impression I always got from the Readers when they announced them, anyway.
>>
>> I wonder if the rider weight thing with the Chev is the step-through and 
>> lack of TT thing. Makes me also wonder if the numbers are likewise 
>> different for the Clem/entines.
>>
>> On Sunday, March 13, 2016 at 8:52:21 PM UTC-4, drew wrote:
>>>
>>> that's an interesting table that zed posted. im sort of surprised that 
>>> the cheviot can handle more loads (but less rider weight) than a hillborne, 
>>> and that the hilsen and hillborne are so similarly maxed out.  
>>>
>>
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>>
>>
>> James Warren
>> jimcw...@earthlink.net
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Clem vs. Joe A, sizing...

[Zed Martinez]

Wasn't the Hillborne more or less literally just a Homer-like bike with the 
expanded geo/fewer sizes and made in Taiwan things? That was the impression 
I always got from the Readers when they announced them, anyway.

I wonder if the rider weight thing with the Chev is the step-through and 
lack of TT thing. Makes me also wonder if the numbers are likewise 
different for the Clem/entines.

On Sunday, March 13, 2016 at 8:52:21 PM UTC-4, drew wrote:
>
> that's an interesting table that zed posted. im sort of surprised that the 
> cheviot can handle more loads (but less rider weight) than a hillborne, and 
> that the hilsen and hillborne are so similarly maxed out.  
>

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[RBW] Re: Clem vs. Joe A, sizing...

[Zed Martinez]

I'm with ya mostly. There are a few set-ups that just really seem to tweak 
my wrists something awful though, and they happen randomly enough I live 
more or less in constant worry of it happening then setting up a new ride. 
It was just weird, with the Clem. I know on paper the albas should work, it 
basically just a mountain-bike posture with them on an 80mm Dirt Drop stem. 
A bit longer than my usual, but not oddly so. And I loved them all last 
year on a different bike. But four months, 1200 miles, and two sore wrists 
later I just had to admit they're apparently off by enough on the Clem that 
I'm not finding my zen with them, no matter how I set'em up. 

I'm also having an adjustment period to the boscos, they're just so far out 
of what I normally ride (and I'm already an upright-only guy, so, it's not 
even drop bar dissonance...). I keep feeling like I'm not going as fast as 
the more aggressive albas allowed, but my cyclo-computer at the end of each 
day keeps telling me otherwise, and the wrist pain is gone, so, hey, I'll 
roll with it.

On Sunday, March 13, 2016 at 10:17:42 AM UTC-4, Mark in Beacon wrote:
>
> The issue I have with the Boscos I think is mostly just a matter of "body 
> memory" getting in the way for the moment. I confess that (within a certain 
> reasonable range, of course) I've never been terribly meticulous in my bike 
> setups, from reach to drop to tt size to what size cogs are on the cluster. 
> I lean toward the idea that our bodies can adapt to a pretty wide range of 
> positions on a bicycle and still be efficient and more or less comfortable. 
> In fact, the comfortability factor of the Boscos may be what is unnerving 
> me a bit. 
>
> On Sunday, March 13, 2016 at 9:55:47 AM UTC-4, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> Mark, the only reason I mention the bar/saddle height relationship thing 
>> is because of my experience using it with the albastaches. The same theory 
>> from the expanded sizing that lets the bars come back at you fast as they 
>> come up thanks to slack head tubes also makes them go away from you fast as 
>> they go down. Not a problem with Boscos, with 4" of rise and 9" of sweep I 
>> need them basically slammed still myself. But without that 9" of sweep, if 
>> you're generally more fond of shorter reaches  like I am there's only so 
>> much a shorter stem can do, most of  shortening the reach on a Clem is by 
>> raising the bars, and they can get quite high indeed. Going lower os much 
>> more difficult depending on which end of a frame size you're on. I think 
>> wanting less sweep plus shortish reach on a Clem basically necessitates 
>> taller bars because of the design, is all.
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Clem vs. Joe A, sizing...

[Zed Martinez]

Mark, the only reason I mention the bar/saddle height relationship thing is 
because of my experience using it with the albastaches. The same theory from 
the expanded sizing that lets the bars come back at you fast as they come up 
thanks to slack head tubes also makes them go away from you fast as they go 
down. Not a problem with Boscos, with 4" of rise and 9" of sweep I need them 
basically slammed still myself. But without that 9" of sweep, if you're 
generally more fond of shorter reaches  like I am there's only so much a 
shorter stem can do, most of  shortening the reach on a Clem is by raising the 
bars, and they can get quite high indeed. Going lower os much more difficult 
depending on which end of a frame size you're on. I think wanting less sweep 
plus shortish reach on a Clem basically necessitates taller bars because of the 
design, is all.

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[RBW] Re: Clem vs. Joe A, sizing...

[Zed Martinez]

The newest Rivendell Reader had a handy-dandy table breaking down all their 
current bikes they should really have on the site somewhere, it's a good, 
quick overview for where the different models fall:

http://imgur.com/UPvCmy0

The Joe is more of a road touring model, and uses lighter tubing and a much 
lighter fork than the Clem. It is fully lugged though, and has a slightly 
shorter top tube to make it easier to use with all bar types. The Clem 
inherits the Hunqapillar's fork, and like the Hunq is at its core a rigid 
mountain bike, and built for the heaviest uses. The longer top-tube on the 
Clems is inherited from the original long bike prototypes and was developed 
in tandem with what came to be called the Bosco bars, and the idea behind 
it is the Boscos on most bikes need the longest reach stem you can get, 
having the longer TT on the Clem lets you use a shorter reach if you like 
so you can dial in the fit on those bars better.

I like my Clem, a lot. But I tried it originally with my albastaches, and 
never could get comfortable really. I finally broke down and am trying the 
Boscos, which didn't seem like my jam, and have been sheepishly eating some 
crow on that this week. They are a wonderful fit for the bike, and the 
ability to go from full upright to fairly relaxed and then down onto the 
flats for a fairly sporty position really do give the bike a very fluid 
feel I hadn't expected given how they look. I don't think if you haven't 
come to terms with the idea of bars near or above the saddle height the 
Clem is really going to be the right fit for you, conceptually and 
spiritually. I ride a saddle height of about 71cm, and the 52cm is exactly 
the right fit and size for me. I do have just the normal Boscos on a 100cm 
Technomic Deluxe, so, they're a little closer even than on the completes, 
where I'd be laid out just a little more.

I think both frames though are supposed to be available as frame-onlies 
sometime down the road again, though?

On Saturday, March 12, 2016 at 2:41:52 PM UTC-5, Doug Van Cleve wrote:
>
> ​Howdy folks.
>
> I am not sure I would buy either, I am more of a roll-it-yourself bike guy 
> and generally like "sporty" bikes, but I am intrigued by these (especially 
> the Joe A).  I was reading up on them, and it isn't obvious to me why I 
> would pick one over the other, assuming cost isn't an issue.
>
> I gather the Clem is more heavy duty, and clearly sizing is or can involve 
> compromise.  IIRC, my PBH is 79cm, measured by GP himself back in '98 when 
> I dropped by RBW world headquarters to order a Road Standard.  Using that 
> number, it appears RBW would recommend the 52cm Clem and the 51cm Joe A.  
> My typical saddle height is 72cm, maybe a bit lower on a flat pedal bike 
> like these.  What I see then is that the Clem will have such a long TT that 
> only bars that come back a lot will be viable and the standover is as high 
> or higher than anything else I have ridden.  A 45cm Clem puts the TT in the 
> range of normal and standover would be great, but it is much smaller than 
> any other bikes I have/have had.
>
> I think RBW would put me on a 51cm Joe A, which has a relatively short TT, 
> shorter than the 45cm Clem.  This would be drop bar compatible with a 
> reasonable length stem, not that I need another drop bar bike.​  I can't 
> seem to find it now, but something I saw led me to believe a 55cm Joe A 
> would really be a bit too big for me, but maybe no moreso than a 52cm 
> Clem.  Also, I would probably be "slamming" the bar/stem on either of 
> these, don't see the need for bars any/much higher than saddle height, and 
> bigger frame means higher lowest bar height.  Any thoughts or words of 
> wisdom?  I assume a Joe A is lighter than a Clem, any idea how much in a 
> similar size?
>
> Thanks, Doug
>

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[RBW] Re: Pass & Stow Porteur Rack Experiences.

[Zed Martinez]

Not a direct answer to the Pass & Stow specifically, but I use the Surly 
Nice Rack on the front of my Clem with a couple front panniers and an Acorn 
rando bag resting on top. I'm trying like one of Grant's bikes and just 
living with all those on the bike. It seems to handle weight in the 
panniers fine. I haven't had an excuse to haul a folding end table on it 
yet like I did on the predecessor, so, I don't know how it handles weird 
weight higher on the platform, but it did fine on a beer run with a six 
pack in each pannier last night, at any rate. So long as I keep the weight 
split evenly it seems to ride fine.

On Wednesday, March 9, 2016 at 10:17:33 AM UTC-5, David Banzer wrote:
>
> I'm just about ready to pull the trigger on a Pass & Stow rack for my 
> Clem. While Clem isn't the typical bike for a big front load, I've had 
> pretty good success with a Wald basket on a Soma rack. That rack needs to 
> go back on another back. 
> What I'd really like is front panniers, with the option of a light, bulky 
> items on top, and be able to carry the occasional takeout order easily.
> I was thinking Nitto 32f front rack with the Hub Area rack, and I'd need 
> to add a basket on top.
> Seems like the Pass & Stow rack fits my needs better. Just curious about 
> folks using that rack with front panniers.
> David
> Chicago
>

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[RBW] Re: Clem w/drop bars

[Zed Martinez]

Oh, and for the curious, my C17 on my Clem is as far forwards as it goes on 
the rails. On the Fuji it was more in the middle. So, I have a lot of room 
to go back, but no room to go forwards. And the C17 has pretty decent rail 
lengths. So, chalk that up as another point the 'swept-back bar' column, 
fit-wise.

On Thursday, March 3, 2016 at 7:04:29 AM UTC-5, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
> I have some thoughts on this, after a winter of various ugly wind 
> conditions and trying to find the position I like best on my Clem. One is, 
> the stack and reach if you measure them out on the Clems is not nearly as 
> extreme as the bikes look. Part of that whole 'expanded frame' notion. For 
> the 52 H I get real stack and reach of about 580 and 407. If you use the 
> provided headset, the effective stack and reach are closer to 620 and 394. 
> All of which are pretty intense for road bikes, but aren't actually 
> disfavorable against adventure bikes like the Soma Wolverine and VO Piolet. 
> With one catch. The 52cm Clem measures out like a non-Clem frame a couple 
> sizes larger. Those numbers line up about the same as a L Piolet or a 58cm 
> Wolverine. (Just for comparison, on paper the stack and reach compare 
> pretty true to size against the Surly Pugsley and Ogre, both of which are 
> clearly more mountainish upright bar bikes, just to show what the Clem aims 
> to be by the numbers.)
>
> OK, so, that's the on-paper stuff. You don't have to look at that long on 
> the actual Clem frame to feel that maybe stack and reach aren't quite 
> telling the whole story this time though:
>
> http://zedmartinez.com/samples/clem-stack-reach.png
>
> That's a lot of the relevant part of the bike sitting behind the bottom 
> bracket, no matter how you slice it. It certainly lends a lot of weight to 
> the 'designed for upright bars argument.' I think there might still be a 
> few cases where you can cheat that, but I think cheat is probably the right 
> word. For most riders, the offset from the BB the seat tube angle provides, 
> available saddle rail adjustment range, and low choice of seat posts with 
> smaller set-backs will probably be enough to leave the Clem best suited for 
> upright bars. But, for the super curious, my thoughts on trying it anyway 
> (since I've been thinking about it myself ever since the first guy 
> suggested why not drops when these were first announced).
>
> I think the key is how if you want to fit it as a drop bar bike then it's 
> effectively several sizes larger than how it's meant to be fit. I'm a PBH 
> of 81 or so, which puts me kind of on the low end fit-wise of my 52cm H 
> Clem. I traced out the fit on it against my old 54cm Fuji road bike that 
> held a lot of the parts now on my Clem for me last year. For the same 
> saddle height (around 70-71 depending on how I eyeball it that day), they 
> aren't atrociously different in the end, other than the Clem clearly having 
> the bars much, much higher.
>
> http://zedmartinez.com/samples/clem-vs-fuji.jpg
>
> However, that was using a 100mm Technomic Deluxe on the Fuji, but an 80mm 
> Dirt Drop sunk literally as low as the Clem allows on the Clem. I had to 
> put a longer stem on the Fuji to make the albstaches work for me. When I 
> used drops on it, it was most comfortable with the 80mm Nitto standard 
> quill it came with. So, if I was to try the same thing as a starting point 
> for fitting drops on my own Clem, I'd have to find something with 20mm less 
> reach than that Dirt Drop stem, and that's going to be tough-to-impossible. 
> If I just put drops on my Dirt Drop I could probably still use them, but 
> I'd be in what Thorn calls a "sporty" position, and, that seems to defeat 
> the point of going to a modern Rivendell for me.
>
> http://zedmartinez.com/samples/bike-position.png
>
> But, I think if I was on the larger end of a given Clem's fit range, 
> instead of the smaller end, it might just be possible to use drops and have 
> it be in a normal position range. It'd still run long, like an adventure 
> bike or an old drop-bar mountain bike. But, isn't that effectively what 
> this is? It wouldn't ever fit like a Sam or a Roadeo or any other more 
> normal 'road' bike with drops, but I think with a short stem and the saddle 
> way up fitting it more like a compact frame and less like an expanded one, 
> there may be some people who could put a drop on and not be unhappy. I'm 
> not saying I'll ever try (my albastache might still be too aggressive on it 
> for me, we'll see once the weather stops beating me up so much and I can 
> tell what's the bike and what's just riding 40 minutes in a 30mph 
> headwind), but yeah. If you're well aware of what you like and how far you 
> can reach, and you size on the lar

[RBW] Re: Clem w/drop bars

[Zed Martinez]

I have some thoughts on this, after a winter of various ugly wind 
conditions and trying to find the position I like best on my Clem. One is, 
the stack and reach if you measure them out on the Clems is not nearly as 
extreme as the bikes look. Part of that whole 'expanded frame' notion. For 
the 52 H I get real stack and reach of about 580 and 407. If you use the 
provided headset, the effective stack and reach are closer to 620 and 394. 
All of which are pretty intense for road bikes, but aren't actually 
disfavorable against adventure bikes like the Soma Wolverine and VO Piolet. 
With one catch. The 52cm Clem measures out like a non-Clem frame a couple 
sizes larger. Those numbers line up about the same as a L Piolet or a 58cm 
Wolverine. (Just for comparison, on paper the stack and reach compare 
pretty true to size against the Surly Pugsley and Ogre, both of which are 
clearly more mountainish upright bar bikes, just to show what the Clem aims 
to be by the numbers.)

OK, so, that's the on-paper stuff. You don't have to look at that long on 
the actual Clem frame to feel that maybe stack and reach aren't quite 
telling the whole story this time though:

http://zedmartinez.com/samples/clem-stack-reach.png

That's a lot of the relevant part of the bike sitting behind the bottom 
bracket, no matter how you slice it. It certainly lends a lot of weight to 
the 'designed for upright bars argument.' I think there might still be a 
few cases where you can cheat that, but I think cheat is probably the right 
word. For most riders, the offset from the BB the seat tube angle provides, 
available saddle rail adjustment range, and low choice of seat posts with 
smaller set-backs will probably be enough to leave the Clem best suited for 
upright bars. But, for the super curious, my thoughts on trying it anyway 
(since I've been thinking about it myself ever since the first guy 
suggested why not drops when these were first announced).

I think the key is how if you want to fit it as a drop bar bike then it's 
effectively several sizes larger than how it's meant to be fit. I'm a PBH 
of 81 or so, which puts me kind of on the low end fit-wise of my 52cm H 
Clem. I traced out the fit on it against my old 54cm Fuji road bike that 
held a lot of the parts now on my Clem for me last year. For the same 
saddle height (around 70-71 depending on how I eyeball it that day), they 
aren't atrociously different in the end, other than the Clem clearly having 
the bars much, much higher.

http://zedmartinez.com/samples/clem-vs-fuji.jpg

However, that was using a 100mm Technomic Deluxe on the Fuji, but an 80mm 
Dirt Drop sunk literally as low as the Clem allows on the Clem. I had to 
put a longer stem on the Fuji to make the albstaches work for me. When I 
used drops on it, it was most comfortable with the 80mm Nitto standard 
quill it came with. So, if I was to try the same thing as a starting point 
for fitting drops on my own Clem, I'd have to find something with 20mm less 
reach than that Dirt Drop stem, and that's going to be tough-to-impossible. 
If I just put drops on my Dirt Drop I could probably still use them, but 
I'd be in what Thorn calls a "sporty" position, and, that seems to defeat 
the point of going to a modern Rivendell for me.

http://zedmartinez.com/samples/bike-position.png

But, I think if I was on the larger end of a given Clem's fit range, 
instead of the smaller end, it might just be possible to use drops and have 
it be in a normal position range. It'd still run long, like an adventure 
bike or an old drop-bar mountain bike. But, isn't that effectively what 
this is? It wouldn't ever fit like a Sam or a Roadeo or any other more 
normal 'road' bike with drops, but I think with a short stem and the saddle 
way up fitting it more like a compact frame and less like an expanded one, 
there may be some people who could put a drop on and not be unhappy. I'm 
not saying I'll ever try (my albastache might still be too aggressive on it 
for me, we'll see once the weather stops beating me up so much and I can 
tell what's the bike and what's just riding 40 minutes in a 30mph 
headwind), but yeah. If you're well aware of what you like and how far you 
can reach, and you size on the larger end of a Clem to fit it more like a 
bike several sizes larger... maybe? I think it's the limitation of just the 
3 sizes more than the long top tube keeping it from being easier to play 
with the idea of drops. If it came in 5-7 sizes it'd be a little easier to 
misuse the sizing intentions and cheat that, but with only the handful it 
seems like only a selection of people will be able to play around like 
that. Anyone in the middle of the size range would have a harder time 
dropping to the next size down and not just being cramped, I think.

For most people, upright bars at least make more sense. And for that 
Rivendell bars higher and closer fit ("very relaxed" or "relaxed" by 
Thorn's nomenclature), vs a "fairly relaxed" or 

[RBW] Re: Girl crush

[Zed Martinez]

That oughtta be fun! I always felt the Clems were destined for some 
all-roads rough stuff like the Hunqapillar myself (and evidenced by my own 
Clem build). The stack/reach on them is actually oddly close to the specs 
on a lot of adventure bikes and fat bikes, despite how different they look 
from the modern crop. I'm still playing with getting the right height on 
the albastache on mine, but I feel like I'm getting really close now to 
having it just so and equally ready for some 'spirited' road jaunts and 
some bumpy off-road ones.

On Monday, February 29, 2016 at 8:10:47 PM UTC-5, BenG wrote:
>
> Clementine frame is due tomorrow! We'll give her a nice early mtb kit amd 
> holler back.  Know there is fun afoot in Fort Wayne.

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[RBW] Re: Joes are in, photos on da BLUG

[Zed Martinez]

>
>
> - WTH are 'Kwik Bitumen' tires? Extra points for getting 'bitumen' on a 
> sidewall!
>
>
>
Kenda Kwik Bitumens? They're like Schwalbe's Delta Cruiser commuter tires, 
is my impression. One of my boss's Cannondale Quick wears them too, so, 
Riv's not the only one speccing them. Nothing special, but they're not 
Cheng Shins 
either. 
http://bicycle.kendatire.com/en-us/find-a-tire/bicycle/commuter/kwick-bitumen/

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[RBW] Re: PSA: Compass cycling knickers back in stock

[Zed Martinez]

Hey, I like my khaki ones.

On Wednesday, February 17, 2016 at 7:07:24 PM UTC-5, Neil wrote:
>
> Looks like all sizes of the Compass Bicycles riding knickers are back in 
> stock, in gray (no more khaki, yay!). Supposedly some modest improvements 
> over the last version. Mine should arrive tomorrow, just in time for the 
> weekend! It's been a lovely two weeks of dry weather here in Nor Cal, 
> hoping to get out for a good ride this weekend.
>
> Cheers,
>
> Neil
>

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[RBW] Re: what bolts?

[Zed Martinez]

I'm using a Pinhead locking skewer on my Clem right now. As Riv warns, they 
work, but you'll eventually chip the paint. In keeping with that Clemmy 
spirit I decided that was an OK compromise, plus with my saddle bag always 
hanging over it it's not like any touch-up paint in the future will be so 
visible. Otherwise, they do work,mostly.You have to crank'em pretty tight, 
and I had to use a little Loctite 609 (thanks other discussion on here 
about slipping seat posts for introducing me to that bit of magic) to fix 
some slow slip it had even then, but it's been rock solid for the past 
month now.  Didn't know about those bolts you're linking to there, though. 
Those will probably work better. I've got the outside to outside on my 
Clem's binder clamp bits at 35mm, so, it's possible the 30mm bolt would be 
long enough once in the recesses.

On Friday, February 12, 2016 at 12:49:34 AM UTC-5, Patrick D Kelly wrote:
>
> I've got a joe appaloosa on order. I'd like to try out securing my seat 
> post and saddle with bolts from http://www.bicyclebolts.com/. Anybody 
> know what size/which bolts I should get?
>
> I've used pinhead locking skewers on my bikes up to now. Any 
> (anti-)recommendations for skewers and the joe?
>
> Assuming I used a good u-lock and sheldon brown locking method, are there 
> any other bits that I can/should worry about locking? I'm guessing there's 
> nothing to be done (nothing available) for the quill stem/handle bar.
>
> mahalo
>

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[RBW] Re: Old Man Petersen decal

[Zed Martinez]

Glad ya like it! And it does look quite sharp on your Atlantis. I've got 
mine on my Clem, where I maybe could've gone with a slightly yellower tan, 
but I was trying to match as many Rivvy colors as I could more or less, so 
I think the way it came out is the way it needed 
to. https://www.flickr.com/photos/zedmartinez/24943189406/in/dateposted-public/

On Thursday, February 11, 2016 at 6:06:58 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>
> Following up on the threads relating to the new frame decal for Old Man 
> Petersen's goodie shop, here it is on my Atlantis:
>
> https://www.flickr.com/photos/33786397@N03/albums/72157664380184592
>
> Perfect fit!  The designer did an excellent job.  
>
> dougP
>
>
>
>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

>
> I'm still searching for the perfect 650b Clem tires. Saw someone call 
> themselves the Emelda Marcos of bike tires and I could easily go that 
> direction. I'm back to thinking something in the 38-40 range but nicer than 
> the stock Kendra's. Compass, Kojack, Pari Moto? Anything you reccomend for 
> paved trail.


I've tried Soma's New Xpress (38mm) which were my daily tires for 8 or 9 
months of paved commuting, and the Compass Switchback Hill standards (48mm) 
on my Clem. The Somas are fast and cushy enough for sure, and that Hypertex 
stuff proved really good at flat resistance. The only flat I had the entire 
time with them was when I hit a submerged pothole and exploded a tube. The 
tire was just fine. They don't corner the best though. I have one twistier 
paved trail I ride a lot along a creek that's often damp and covered in 
small sticks and such, and they're not the most confidence inspiring 
through some stretches. The Compass tires are excellent. Equally as fast, 
notably cushier. And the cornering between that tread design and fatness is 
among the best I've ever felt in my admittedly limited tire experience. 
Hardy they ain't though, I've already has two flats from small glass shards 
the Somas apparently ignored, since they were all on the same routes and I 
promise they don't get swept off often. I was running them with some 
rhinodillo liners before the snow came, and while I'm sure some are balking 
at the notion, they didn't ride notably differently with the liners. I've 
also never had the problems some have with liners though, and back when I 
switched to full-time commuting they ended up being a real life saver one 
week when I'd already had 4 flats and couldn't afford the Gatorskins the 
LBS recommended. So, anyway, I'm the sorta weirdo who put tire liners in 
Compass tires, but I swear it works pretty well. They still ride better 
than the Somas, and the Somas were what finally got me to just swear off 
cheaper block profile tires entirely. They were revelationary for me, and 
the Compass are that much better. I am curious how some of the new Schwalbe 
options are though, the Marathon Supreme looks more like my sorta bag than 
their other tires I've used have been, though, I also have tire liners in 
Schwalbes with "puncture resistant" strips because I got main tread 
punctures anyway, so, they might have to have some unexpectedly nice rides 
before I go back that way just for the durability over other options.

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Re: [RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

Definitely add the Soma New Xpress to your list to look at, then. Made by 
Panaracer with their Palsea tread, gumwalls. They're pretty darn light for 
tough tires, and the kevlar alternative casing rode better than any 
Schwalbe I have tried and was definitely not prone to picking up flats. 
They're 38mms, and I wish they came in bigger sizes (I'm right about there 
with you in weight, more with my Clem loaded up as it usually is, but I got 
25mm rims so, fatter makes more sense on mine anyway).

On Wednesday, February 3, 2016 at 1:36:59 PM UTC-5, El Sapo wrote:
>
> I don't encounter much road debris. Some thorns, I did get a flat on a Big 
> Apple on one bike. I have the marathon supremes on 2 other bikes and they 
> have never flatted. The Big Apples roll better. Cushier. Since my 52 Clem 
> has 18mm wide rim I didn't want to go too wide of a tire. I weigh 190, and 
> 1 1/2, 38 should be OK. There is a Schwalbe Almotion coming out that 
> interests me, It's a 2" tire. I rode the Big Ones a couple of times. They 
> were fast as hell and light. I'm looking to get something more durable that 
> will be light and fast in a narrower tire.  

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

I like friction rear shifting because on modern hyperglide style cassettes 
it's a lot easier to just skim across gears to the one I want out of the 
stack, instead of having to click 3 or 4 times after every stop over the 
course of just a few seconds. On my albastaches, I also like how it becomes 
a seamless motion of sliding my hand back with either my palm or fingers 
catching the shifter and nudging it smoothly into position. Just feels a 
lot more intuitive than indexed after a very short time. Mostly though, I 
like that I never have my indexing get off kilter as cables stretch and 
chains wear, and that I can use basically any cassette and derailleur combo 
I want when I swap parts out without replacing the shifter. That's what got 
me to try it. The smooth way it skates across the stack with the subtle 
gestures of my wrist made me a convert, though.

On Tuesday, February 2, 2016 at 9:14:53 PM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Bill, I think you're bang on with your analysis and description, thanks 
> for breaking it down and examining/explaining the shifter. 
>
> I'm not upset at Riv for sourcing this part, its just less then ideal and 
> the nuances of the shifter in this application make it difficult to live 
> with. This is which why I ponied up for some ultegra bar ends. It's good to 
> hear the sun race bodies will house the barcon so further options there. 
>
> Now this may offend some, and call me new school, but I don't really 
> understand the benefit of friction shifting in the rear. What is the point 
> of being able to trim the rear derailer? it's either in line or not in line 
> and when it's not in line it runs like crap.  I know it's all personal 
> preference and no one way is the right way, but I'll take a well tuned 
> index system any day. I don't want to have to think about or customize rear 
> derailer alignment. Front shifting on the other hand I love having the 
> ability to smoothly move the derailer along its plane to prevent chain rub. 
>
> Cheers everyone!  
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Cantilever Brakes on a Clementine?

[Zed Martinez]

I'm running cantilevers on my 52cm Clem just fine. The original concept 
spec for the Clems also said either V or cantis worked great on it. I'm 
using a standard Tektro binder bolt hanger on the rear and the Tektro 
fork-mounted one on the front.

Matter o'fact, here's a canti'd Clementine from the original demo batch I 
had a saved picture of in my Clem notes archive (since with Riv, pics have 
a tendency to disappear over time).

http://zedmartinez.com/samples/tumblr_nldrd6esBu1qe3ngpo2_1280.jpg

On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 10:22:48 AM UTC-5, David Banzer wrote:
>
> With a tax refund heading my way, and a set of 26" wheels that have been 
> sitting around without a bike, AND a 45cm Clementine that was just posted, 
> I'm wondering if I should snag it for my wife. Probably not her first color 
> choice, but that's ok.
> My question is: even though v-brakes work great and Riv is using them more 
> and more, what are the chances of easily running cantilever brakes, 
> specifically running cable housing to a pulley mounted on the seatpost 
> binder bolt area?
> David
> Chicago
>

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[RBW] Re: Cantilever Brakes on a Clementine?

[Zed Martinez]

I guess I just never found the bend to be that tight? I'd put'em on a 
Clementine without a second thought and not fuss with the pulleys, But I 
also like the look of looping housing on step throughs, so maybe I'm just 
odd like that.

On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 12:07:04 PM UTC-5, David Banzer wrote:
>
> I have cantis on my Clem as well. I'm considering the step-through 
> Clementine specifically with the tight angle in the Riv photo. I have 
> pulley already that has a built-in cable stop adjuster, curious if others 
> have gone this route. It's certainly not a dealbreaker, if I decide on 
> buying it then v-brakes certainly would be fine. Just considering options. 
> David
>
> On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 10:08:18 AM UTC-6, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> I'm running cantilevers on my 52cm Clem just fine. The original concept 
>> spec for the Clems also said either V or cantis worked great on it. I'm 
>> using a standard Tektro binder bolt hanger on the rear and the Tektro 
>> fork-mounted one on the front.
>>
>> Matter o'fact, here's a canti'd Clementine from the original demo batch I 
>> had a saved picture of in my Clem notes archive (since with Riv, pics have 
>> a tendency to disappear over time).
>>
>> http://zedmartinez.com/samples/tumblr_nldrd6esBu1qe3ngpo2_1280.jpg
>>
>> On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 10:22:48 AM UTC-5, David Banzer wrote:
>>>
>>> With a tax refund heading my way, and a set of 26" wheels that have been 
>>> sitting around without a bike, AND a 45cm Clementine that was just posted, 
>>> I'm wondering if I should snag it for my wife. Probably not her first color 
>>> choice, but that's ok.
>>> My question is: even though v-brakes work great and Riv is using them 
>>> more and more, what are the chances of easily running cantilever brakes, 
>>> specifically running cable housing to a pulley mounted on the seatpost 
>>> binder bolt area?
>>> David
>>> Chicago
>>>
>>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Cantilever Brakes on a Clementine?

[Zed Martinez]

Thanks Tim. Somehow I hadn't seen Surly's hanger and now want that on my 
Clem too. It was a tight bend with the Tektro back there.

On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 11:51:59 AM UTC-5, Tim Gavin wrote:
>
> Looking at the Riv picture, it seems like a longer cable hanger for the 
> rear (like the Nitto or Surly) would allow for a more gradual curve in the 
> housing under the seat.
>
> On Thu, Jan 28, 2016 at 10:08 AM, Zed Martinez <iamzedm...@gmail.com 
> > wrote:
>
>> I'm running cantilevers on my 52cm Clem just fine. The original concept 
>> spec for the Clems also said either V or cantis worked great on it. I'm 
>> using a standard Tektro binder bolt hanger on the rear and the Tektro 
>> fork-mounted one on the front.
>>
>> Matter o'fact, here's a canti'd Clementine from the original demo batch I 
>> had a saved picture of in my Clem notes archive (since with Riv, pics have 
>> a tendency to disappear over time).
>>
>> http://zedmartinez.com/samples/tumblr_nldrd6esBu1qe3ngpo2_1280.jpg
>>
>> On Thursday, January 28, 2016 at 10:22:48 AM UTC-5, David Banzer wrote:
>>>
>>> With a tax refund heading my way, and a set of 26" wheels that have been 
>>> sitting around without a bike, AND a 45cm Clementine that was just posted, 
>>> I'm wondering if I should snag it for my wife. Probably not her first color 
>>> choice, but that's ok.
>>> My question is: even though v-brakes work great and Riv is using them 
>>> more and more, what are the chances of easily running cantilever brakes, 
>>> specifically running cable housing to a pulley mounted on the seatpost 
>>> binder bolt area?
>>> David
>>> Chicago
>>>
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>
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[RBW] Re: How do you say beausage in Japanese?

[Zed Martinez]

Like Bill, wabi-sabi was the philosophy I knew of and work to embrace more. 
Nothing lasts, nothing is finished, nothing is perfect.

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 7:19:13 PM UTC-5, Bill Lindsay wrote:
>
> I would not call it a direct translation to Japanese, but the Japanese 
> world view that I think of as consistent with beausage is "wabi sabi".  
>
> 侘寂
>
>
>
> On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 4:02:20 PM UTC-8, alan lavine wrote:
>>
>> From todays NY Times food section:
>>
>> http://nyti.ms/1RIDcS6 
>> 
>>   
>>
>> Read the second paragraph.
>>
>> Alan
>>
>

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Re: [RBW] Re: Old Man Petersen's House of Ferrous Velocipedes and Vinyl Seat Tube Decals

[Zed Martinez]

Hey Pudge, see my first post in this thread for the address.

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 1:37:29 PM UTC-5, Pudge wrote:
>
> What's the address to send the self-addressed envelope and $$$ to?
>
>  
>
> *From:* rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com  [mailto:
> rbw-owne...@googlegroups.com ] *On Behalf Of *David Person
> *Sent:* Tuesday, January 26, 2016 8:39 PM
> *To:* RBW Owners Bunch
> *Subject:* [RBW] Re: Old Man Petersen's House of Ferrous Velocipedes and 
> Vinyl Seat Tube Decals
>
>  
>
> Mine arrived in today's mail.  Thanks Norman.  They look great.
>
>  
>
> David
>
>
> "Norman was a really stand-up guy in finding a printer to make it a 
> reality, and then in fronting the scratch for a run of 100. The result is a 
> going price of $1/sticker, and Norman just asks that you send a buck for 
> each sticker you want and a self-addressed stamped envelope to him"
>
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>
>
> The sender of this email is a retired partner of Skadden Arps and is not 
> performing legal service on behalf of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom 
> LLP & Affiliates. Use by a retired partner of the skadden.com or 
> probonolaw.com domain names is in his/her personal capacity and not on 
> behalf of Skadden, Arps, Slate, Meagher & Flom LLP & Affiliates.
>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

Thanks, Tim. And hey, for better or worse I consider 'no hands' to be the 
fifth really good hand position on my albastches, a habit I picked up from 
my Simcoe roadster which is so stable and so limited in hand grips that it 
became habit for me to ride long stretches of the trail out here just 
leaning back. But still, those are some pretty good speeds, I think 40kmph 
is about as fast as I've been able to get my Clem up to period in the 
winter out here, and that was just for a few seconds on a downhill. I don't 
think I'd want to be taking that no-hands anyway ;)

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 2:48:46 PM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Thanks Zed, maybe I'll play around with the tire pressure.  Like I said it 
> only happens no handed and at very specific speeds, I'd estimate around 
> 30-40km/hr, so it's a pretty rare scenario and it's easy to correct. 
>
> Nice decal design btw!
>

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[RBW] Re: Old Man Petersen's House of Ferrous Velocipedes and Vinyl Seat Tube Decals

[Zed Martinez]

I know, I know... But it's not my place to let these get to him prior to 
the Snob's. S'only right, since he asked. ;)

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 10:52:51 PM UTC-5, dougP wrote:
>
> "No leaking it to Grant."  And no one at Rivendell is paying attention 
> to this group?  Unlikely.
>
> dougP
>
> On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 6:31:30 PM UTC-8, Zed Martinez wrote:
>>
>> BikeSnob's. No leaking it to Grant, the Snob asked for some to give to 
>> him himself, since it was his joke.
>>
>> On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 8:40:29 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>>>
>>> That's a great sticker Zed. Just to be clear, was it made with Grant's, 
>>> BSNYCs, or both of their blessings? 
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Clemmin' Around

[Zed Martinez]

Glad to see you finally got the rack sorted, Tim! Sorry to hear about your 
girl and hope things are getting better. Sounds like it was a fun ride, 
though. Wish I could help you more on the wobble thing... my 52cm with rack 
only does the usual wobble at low speeds, and it cleans up as it goes. I 
did have problems with more at one point and learned the front on mine is 
fairly sensitive to tire pressure and pushing that up 5psi resolved that. 
And I've also found adding my front panniers--even empty-- will clean up 
some normal wobble, but made wheel flop correction if I oversteered a 
problem. It tended to compound itself rather than correct itself, but I was 
using a wheel stabilizer back then and those problems are probably just 
that.

Hope you get it figured out though.

On Wednesday, January 27, 2016 at 12:49:51 AM UTC-5, Tim Wood wrote:
>
> Sorry about the upside down images, drafted with iPad and can't figure out 
> how to edit them. Here's a flicker link if they are too annoying. 
>
> https://flickr.com/photos/137638381@N05/sets/72157658944869634
>
> Tim
>
>

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[RBW] Re: Old Man Petersen's House of Ferrous Velocipedes and Vinyl Seat Tube Decals

[Zed Martinez]

BikeSnob's. No leaking it to Grant, the Snob asked for some to give to him 
himself, since it was his joke.

On Tuesday, January 26, 2016 at 8:40:29 PM UTC-5, Tim wrote:
>
> That's a great sticker Zed. Just to be clear, was it made with Grant's, 
> BSNYCs, or both of their blessings? 

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[RBW] Re: OT Bike tagging and/or stolen bike registry?

[Zed Martinez]

Pierre, I know Bike Index is working to establish itself as an answer to Q1 
of yours. I believe two separate efforts merged their resources together to 
make it. I make sure all of my rides are registered with it, at any rate:
https://bikeindex.org/

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 11:50:22 AM UTC-5, Pierre wrote:
>
> Hi bunch, 
>
> I got burglarized recently and the officer told me he has a warehouse full 
> of stuff he can't give back because most people don't take note of their 
> serial number or other proof of ownership. 
>
> I am not sure Riv keeps track of SN. Maybe now would be a good time the 
> take a picture of your SN below your BB. 
>
> Q: is there a well established registry of stolen bikes nationwide? Or 
> only local inititiatives maybe? 
>
> Q: is there a commercial or non-profit bike tagging solution in the US? 
>
> Q: What have you personally done to ensure your bike is returned to you in 
> the off chance that it is found or recovered? Albeit very slim. 
>
> Thanks. 
>
> Pierre 
>
> PS: no Riv were stolen, only electronics.

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[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Zed Martinez]

Hmph. I could swear I saw something more recent, but all I can find in my 
history is this quite dated (though still interesting) article from 
Sheldon's site:
http://www.sheldonbrown.com/rinard/frame_fatigue_test.htm

And this white paper that doesn't do any comparisons but just talks about a 
lot of the factors that make it hard to just compare all carbon fiber 
equally (and along with that the different factors that can lead to CF 
failure more, or lead to it less):
http://calfeedesign.com/tech-papers/technical-white-paper/

I'd like to see anything more recent myself.

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:32:53 PM UTC-5, Zed Martinez wrote:
>
> I'm trying to find the link, I saw the results of a lab study on this just 
> recently, but can't find it yet. If I recall, good carbon fiber is strong. 
> Really strong. It outlasted the steel by a lot in the lab test. Even Grant 
> has found this before, in their impromptu fork sword fight the CF one 
> actually bent one of the steel ones when impacted. (I did always find it a 
> bit cheating that the way he got the CF one to fail was to score it.) The 
> thing he took comfort in in the end is my favorite reason to advocate steel 
> for a bicycle over CF, and that's failure mode. Used as intended and not 
> abused, a carbon fiber frame might even outlast a steel one. It's just they 
> don't tend to fare as well if they take the sort of usual knocks, falls, 
> and collisions a bike tends to go through. Once there's been some damage, 
> the failure mode tends to be sudden and catastrophic rather than slow and 
> visible. A good chance to take as a performance-minded person for 
> performance-minded uses, but at odds with that core Rivendell belief of 
> making no quadriplegics. I'll keep looking for the link on the strength and 
> durability of the materials.
>
> On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>>
>> Has anyone with real cycling design bona fides done a dispassionate 
>> analysis comparing the advantages and disadvantages of carbon fiber and 
>> steel as materials for bicycle parts and frames? 
>>
>> For example, local builder Dave Porter claimed, or used to claim (this 
>> was 4-5 years ago) that he could build a steel bike as light as a carbon 
>> fiber one using the latest steels. OTOH, don't they use CF for F1 racing 
>> car cockpit tubs? 
>>
>> Intelligently used (please note that qualification), would CF be both 
>> lighter and stronger in a bike frame properly designed for that material, 
>> than the best steel? Or just lighter? Or just stronger? Or neither?
>>
>> The discussion of CF *as such* and steel *as such* as frame materials so 
>> often doesn't prescind from the stupid light designs used by marketers to 
>> sell new bikes to the gullible. It would be refreshing to see an 
>> intelligent comparison of the materials' real advantages.
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, Surlyprof <jmcc...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>>> *"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly 
>>> accepted constraints."*  - Charles Eames
>>>
>>> I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers.  
>>> Carbon fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any 
>>> plastic material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be 
>>> reducing or eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing 
>>> processes.  It continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1) 
>>> the public was led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel 
>>> would reveal the flaws in carbon.  
>>>
>>
>> -- 
>> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
>> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
>> Other professional writing services.
>> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
>> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
>> Patrick Moore
>> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
>> *
>> ***
>> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
>> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
>> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>>
>> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
>> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>>
>> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>>
>> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>>
>>
>>

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[RBW] Re: Segwaying from Garbage Pail Bike thread: pros and cons of CF and Steel?

[Zed Martinez]

I'm trying to find the link, I saw the results of a lab study on this just 
recently, but can't find it yet. If I recall, good carbon fiber is strong. 
Really strong. It outlasted the steel by a lot in the lab test. Even Grant 
has found this before, in their impromptu fork sword fight the CF one 
actually bent one of the steel ones when impacted. (I did always find it a 
bit cheating that the way he got the CF one to fail was to score it.) The 
thing he took comfort in in the end is my favorite reason to advocate steel 
for a bicycle over CF, and that's failure mode. Used as intended and not 
abused, a carbon fiber frame might even outlast a steel one. It's just they 
don't tend to fare as well if they take the sort of usual knocks, falls, 
and collisions a bike tends to go through. Once there's been some damage, 
the failure mode tends to be sudden and catastrophic rather than slow and 
visible. A good chance to take as a performance-minded person for 
performance-minded uses, but at odds with that core Rivendell belief of 
making no quadriplegics. I'll keep looking for the link on the strength and 
durability of the materials.

On Tuesday, January 19, 2016 at 3:01:03 PM UTC-5, Patrick Moore wrote:
>
> Has anyone with real cycling design bona fides done a dispassionate 
> analysis comparing the advantages and disadvantages of carbon fiber and 
> steel as materials for bicycle parts and frames? 
>
> For example, local builder Dave Porter claimed, or used to claim (this was 
> 4-5 years ago) that he could build a steel bike as light as a carbon fiber 
> one using the latest steels. OTOH, don't they use CF for F1 racing car 
> cockpit tubs? 
>
> Intelligently used (please note that qualification), would CF be both 
> lighter and stronger in a bike frame properly designed for that material, 
> than the best steel? Or just lighter? Or just stronger? Or neither?
>
> The discussion of CF *as such* and steel *as such* as frame materials so 
> often doesn't prescind from the stupid light designs used by marketers to 
> sell new bikes to the gullible. It would be refreshing to see an 
> intelligent comparison of the materials' real advantages.
>
> On Tue, Jan 19, 2016 at 8:01 AM, Surlyprof  > wrote:
>
>> *"I have never been forced to accept compromises but I have willingly 
>> accepted constraints."*  - Charles Eames
>>
>> I am also an Industrial Designer and teacher of future designers.  Carbon 
>> fiber is the choice of many young designers because, like any plastic 
>> material, it seductively can be any shape you want it to be reducing or 
>> eliminating constraints of materials and manufacturing processes.  It 
>> continues to be a staple in the bike industry because (1) the public was 
>> led to believe it is better and (2) to go back to steel would reveal the 
>> flaws in carbon.  
>>
>
> -- 
> Resumes, LinkedIn profiles, bios, and letters that get interviews.
> By-the-hour resume and LinkedIn coaching.
> Other professional writing services.
> http://www.resumespecialties.com/
> www.linkedin.com/in/patrickmooreresumespec/
> Patrick Moore
> Alburquerque, Nouvelle Mexique,  Vereinigte Staaten
> **
> **
> *The point which is the pivot of the norm is the motionless center of a 
> circumference on which all conditions, distinctions, and individualities 
> revolve. *Chuang Tzu
>
> *Stat crux dum volvitur orbis.* *(The cross stands motionless while the 
> world revolves.) *Carthusian motto
>
> *It is *we *who change; *He* remains the same.* Eckhart
>
> *Kinei hos eromenon.* (*It moves [all things] as the beloved.) *Aristotle
>
>
>

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