Gee... is Sage a trademark?
Besides, I don't think a trademark is that strong... E.g. firefox is
a trademark of mozilla. Debian doesn't want to be bound by the terms
of use of said trademark, so the rename the program to iceweasel.
All visible occurrences of the name firefox are replaced
This is such an amusing thread. Try re-reading the thread as if everyone
were arguing that we should improve Maxima because it is open source
and many people can improve upon it. Sure, you'd have to learn lisp
but Guido argues that python is lisp, so is the learning curve so steep?
On average
I've just returned from the NSF conference.
There was a big push for teaching, especially related to CAS. I suggested
a joint effort with the game industry. The idea would be to use a game
like the bridge building game (www.bridgebuilder-game.com) and a CAS.
The idea of the bridge game is to
But there is certainly still the issue with distribution, i.e. the
trade press covered the [planned?] deployment of Debian by the
government of Cuba a couple weeks ago. I wonder who gets into trouble
for exporting Debian in that context - even though there is only a
minuscule chance that
Kudos to SymPy!
I'm wondering why the python integration algorithms implemented there
aren't in the short term adopted by SAGE.
They are --- you can use them from sympy inside Sage. It's my goal
that all sympy features are nicely integrated in Sage. I work on this
as time permits.
It's on our list too, so it will happen eventually. We definitely
still need to improve our algorithms a lot, see e.g.:
http://groups.google.com/group/sympy/browse_thread/thread/58916fb31e1ff1ea
but a nice thing is that it's in Python, so it's easy to work with.
Ondrej
At some
Wikipedia also has a few interesting remarks, e.g., that the Risch
algorithm isn't an algorithm, because it depends on being able to
check equality of general elementary functions, which is evidently an
open problem in general (so in practice you just fake it by evaluating
numerically
So we have a good start to implement the Risch algorithm in sympy already.
Ondrej, what result do you get for:
integrate(sqrt(x+log(x)),x)
Tim
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A much shorter example is:
integrate(sqrt(x+log(x)),x)
to which Axiom replies:
integrate: implementation incomplete (constant residues)
What is f(x) = sqrt(x+log(x)) supposed to be an example of? Does f
has an antiderivative that can be expressed in terms of elementary
A loss for the CAS community, from William Sit:
Dear Friends of Jerry Kovacic:
It is with great sadness that I am passing on the news that
Jerry Kovacic died of brain cancer at around 2:30 pm on
April 1, 2009. He was 67.
Jerry is well known for his eponymous algorithm for solving
linear second
About two years ago we made the painful transition from using Darcs to
Mercurial for our revision control system. This was difficult, but had
to be done because it was hard to get Darcs to run everywhere, and
there were weird corner cases where Darcs would hang. Mercurial isn't
optimal but
I like s.cardinality() since that's what I've used often already all
over in Sage.
Do
sage: search_src('cardinality')
hundreds of places in sage where this is used!
Arglll !!! I had this idea and issued an
tomahawk-*ge-combinat/sage $ grep def\ cardinality\( **/*.py* | wc
11 35
Could you please elaborate (in technical terms) what is wrong in
principle with our Risch algorithm implementation, apart that it needs
fixing for integrals that it cannot yet do? Or is the approach we took
with sympy not the right one to get the symbolic integration done.
If Sage developers are
Could you please elaborate (in technical terms) what is wrong in
principle with our Risch algorithm implementation, apart that it needs
fixing for integrals that it cannot yet do? Or is the approach we took
with sympy not the right one to get the symbolic integration done.
If Sage developers are
I don't mean to suggest this could be trivially done by anybody right
now. I'm talking about feasibility in the sense of several very hard
weeks work by one of the top 10 Sage developers.
...
1. Consider lines of code. How many correct LOC/day does a top 10
Sage developer write? On
I think there might be a bit of overconfidence in assuming that any
one of the top 10 Sage developers is going to reproduce even a
fraction of that complexity in the near term.
That's not what is being discussed. The question is about the
technical feasibility of removing lisp/maxima from
What about an option to the upgrade script, e.g.
sage -upgrade [-b branch]
which would upgrade specified branch inplace if specified?
I don't want to start a religious war but this is trivial in
a git repository. There was some talk a while back about changing
to git.
Tim
Tim,
When you publish your test suite I'd like to be able to merge
the Sage version of the integrations back into the CATS version
of the schaums tests. Do you think this will be possible?
Tim Daly
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Tim,
Actually what I'm hoping for is a merged document that can be used by
anyone to see the results from various systems compared. This is similar
in spirit to the rosetta document I helped author:
http://axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/rosetta.pdf
except that I would like to see such
...[snip]...
... Van Lindberg points
out implicit licenses are not legally binding and presents a legal
horror story of one guy contributing code he do not own to an OS
sourceforge project, only to be bankrupted by lawsuits and SF
being required to remove
Tim,
Were you just interested in integration or do you intend to work on a
full test suite? If you're interested in building a larger test suite
I'd be happy to work with you (or others) on areas that interest both
Axiom and Sage. Indeed, this might be a good way for students and
mathematicians
Don't worry: I am bound to be productive into translating code from
MuPAD to Sage :-) And the MuPAD's category hierarchy is quite similar
(since inspired from) Axiom's.
Do you have information about MuPad's categories?
Tim
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There are at least two possible paths toward a category hierarchy in Sage,
adopting Axiom's version or designing a new one.
The key advantage of adopting the Axiom category hierarchy is the Sage
system could reuse a lot of the algorithms in Axiom. The Spad language
used in Axiom is similar in
Nicolas,
The category hierarchy in Axiom is being documented in more detail.
The latest, nearly complete, version is at:
http://daly.axiom-developer.org/bookvol10.2.pdf
Note that the PDF is hyperlinked.
A (currently partial) diagram of the hierarchy can be found at:
To quote U.S. copyright law, section 107:
Notwithstanding the provisions of sections 106 and 106A, the fair use
of a copyrighted work, including such use by reproduction in copies or
phonorecords, or by any other means specified by that section, for
purposes such as criticism, comment,
John,
As the outgoing editor-in-chief of the LMS-JCM (London Mathematical
Society Journal of Computation and Mathematics) (for the next 5 days,
when Derek Holt takes over), and also an editor of the Journal of
Algebra's Section on Computational Algebra, I feel obliged to ask
exactly what the new
Hi. Dan Grayson sent Greg and me a message letting us know about this
discussion and I thought it might be helpful for if I joined the
discussion as one of the managing editors.
SNIP
I'm delighted that the journal has generated so much discussion.
Yes, I think that forces between the
I've been playing around with learning blender, with the idea of
animating some 4-D projection/rotations of polytopes into 3D. But all
I really want is a nice compressed animation/movie format, and it
seems like there should be a lighter-weight way to do that. If I come
up with anything
I've been playing around with learning blender, with the idea of
animating some 4-D projection/rotations of polytopes into 3D. But all
I really want is a nice compressed animation/movie format, and it
seems like there should be a lighter-weight way to do that. If I come
up with anything worth
If someone proposes an implementation I can try and shoot it down or
improve it. But I don't know sage well enough to know whether there
is an obvious way to do it all. My guess is that this is a natural
task for Lisp and the wrong task for Python.
Having worked in both python and lisp I
FriCAS / Axiom is supposed to be very good at linear differential
equations and differential equations of the form y'=f(x, y) - the code
is by Manuel Bronstein. It seems to be rather weak for others, it
cannot solve the equation above for example. I must admit, however,
that I do not know much
MATHEMATICA:
Timing[a = Expand[(x^Sin[x] +y^Cos[y] - z^(x+y))^100];]
{0.180212, Null}
SAGE:
sage: time a = expand((x^sin(x) + y^cos(y) - z^(x+y))^100)
CPU times: user 0.15 s, sys: 0.00 s, total: 0.15 s
Does this include the time to format and print the output?
Tim
I tried the sage -upgrade way but I did not realise it would compile
everything from scratch and how long it would take. Actually, I still
don't know how long it will take, since it has been compiling for more
than an hour now and is still going. I am upgrading from 3.0.5 on a
MacBook Pro 2.4 GHz
Well, there is a vast people using Windows out there either by choice
or because they don't know about alternatives.
True, but I suspect the first year students under discussion should be
aware of other systems such as Linux. They would have the choice to
use Linux if they wanted. I can't
Do you want your code to live?
That's a very interesting question. When I was much younger, I used to
think I did. But when you realize that an awful lot of code isn't meant
to live -- it's meant to solve an immediate problem, and then be
discarded -- then you don't care whether it lives or
[EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:
Yes, yes, it is easy to criticize and whats really needed is energy
and effort... well I hope to try some more... but the structure of the
files makes it very difficult to follow. When one only has a limited
amount of time to contribute it is really depressing
Robert,
http://axiom.axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/CATS/
view the pdf file for Schaums 14.120-14.124 (schaum5.input.pdf)
See the result on page 3 of the pdf.
The first integral result returned by Axiom is a list of answers.
Hmm. I don't see any indication of the domain in which each
Also part of the problem is that the assume system in Maxima
is not very strong, and it has bugs. We could use some help on
that too.
What are your ideas to handle assumptions correctly?
E.g. from your slides you prefer the formula and all the symbols to be
just symbols without any
Are there any other major test suite collections available?
At present Maxima includes a copy of Michael Wester's test suite
which was the basis for his published review of computer algebra
systems from about 10 years ago. We haven't done anything with it
but I asked for and received permission
Actually I would really like to know why Sage developers prefer to
restart from scratch. I do really believe that they are
underestimating the required work. I have read somewhere that Gary is
an undergraduate. I have nothing against undergraduates, we were all
undegraduates at one time, but
I think that's really the core issue in this whole thread -- some people
are really disturbed by code get thrown away... Well deal with it.
Lets try to avoid ad hominem. Bernard's point is not one of ego. Nor
is mine. Almost all the code I've written in the last 37 years is
gone and I'm
As to the point of community goals I have a proposal to make.
Since the stated goal of Sage is to be a viable alternative to
the 4Ms it makes sense to develop a measure of how close the
goal is approached.
Maple has a Kamke ordinary differential equation test set.
Maple can do almost all of
Since the stated goal of Sage is to be a viable alternative to
the 4Ms it makes sense to develop a measure of how close the
goal is approached.
[specifc test suites]
This is where Sage gets to prove it really is a 4Ms alternative.
The goal of Sage is to be an alternative to the 4M's in the
I finished the MAC OSX 10.4 build of sage-3.0.3 and am ready to build
the binary but I cannot remember the command. I thought it was
make dist but the makefile doesn't contain such a stanza.
Tim
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I know there are several people who feel that Lisp code is hard
to develop. I can highly recommend a series of short videos that
show the development of a reddit clone in common lisp.
http://www.lispcast.com/drupal/node/4
He shows quite a few interesting features, including writing unit
tests
I finished the MAC OSX 10.4 build of sage-3.0.3 and am ready to build
the binary but I cannot remember the command. I thought it was
make dist but the makefile doesn't contain such a stanza.
./sage -bdist 3.0.3-osx10.4-ppc
and you find the result in dist/
I tried to upload the dmg but blew
In terms of using patches as a transport, its just a transport. I think
it would be cleaner to import the branch as a branch and have final
merges into mainline branches controlled using current practice.
Patches in trac are, IMHO, clumsy although in practice it probably
doesn't matter much.
I'd
One unmentioned feature of a git-based Sage archive is the ability
to pull a guaranteed-correct tree from history. This is not possible
using CVS or SVN. I am not sure about bzr or hg.
Suppose you work on Sage-3.0.2 and it has an spkg, say SymPy at 3.3.
Suppose both Sage-3.0.2 and SymPy are held
I don't exactly understand these distributed control systems very
well, so hopefully this isn't an obvious question. Right now as I'm
working on symbolics I commonly have files from multiple branches open
(symbolics-stable/backup, symbolics-current, calculus-old). I also
have to frequently have
Maple does
1/(1+I);
1/2 - 1/2 I
Axiom does
1/(1+%i)
1
--
1 + %i
which is of type Fraction Complex Integer, that is a fraction
whose numerator and denominator are of type Complex(Integer).
You can ask Axiom to place the result in a
sage: class foo:
... def __init__(self, a):
... self.b = a
sage: f = foo(10)
sage: f.b
10
sage: f.__init__(20)
sage: f.b
20
Well Sage hasn't exploded already because of this, so
I guess we'll just have to live with it.
Excellent. Now we can inflate integers to match the dollar
You might find some of the ideas in this paper of interest:
Norbert Kajler and Neil Soiffer A Survey of User Interfaces for
Computer Algebra Systems Journal of Symbolic Computation 1998
Vol 25 pp127-159
Tim
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Troy,
I recommend you talk to William Stein. He's the project lead.
I follow both Scientific Linux and Sage but am not a contributor to either.
But I think that FNAL and other labs would be the ideal target
audience for a Sage system.
Tim
Colleagues,
There is a cross-fertilization that
Colleagues,
There is a cross-fertilization that might be very useful for both
the Scientific Linux world and the Sage world.
For those who don't know, Scientific Linux is a linux distribution
that is a common platform for scientific users. It was recently
described as:
Sage is an open source
This is interesting. Visual mathematics of functions.
http://nylander.wordpress.com
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I can try to build a Sage binary on Fedora 3 if you wish
but I'm not optimistic. I know that my Fedora 5 could not
build Sage because the compiler was too old.
The compiler wasn't too old, it was *borken*, i.e. internal compiler
error. IIRC it was some gcc 4.1.0 and as well all know a .0
Alfredo,
I can try to build a Sage binary on Fedora 3 if you wish
but I'm not optimistic. I know that my Fedora 5 could not
build Sage because the compiler was too old. Fedora 3
likely has the same issue.
Tim
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I can try to build a Sage binary on Fedora 3 if you wish
but I'm not optimistic. I know that my Fedora 5 could not
build Sage because the compiler was too old.
The compiler wasn't too old, it was *borken*, i.e. internal compiler
error. IIRC it was some gcc 4.1.0 and as well all know a .0
In the past I have had 2 distributions that I gave away at ISSAC.
The first was my Rosetta collection (about 100 open source systems
collected onto CDs). Some of these I eventually put on the ISSAC CD
itself (I constructed the CD for 2 years). It was distributed by ACM.
The second was an Axiom
You might consider designating a particular snapshot (say, 3.0)
that you plan to package and build onto CDs. If they use Alfredo
Portes's Doyen Live CD then people can just boot up their laptops
and have Sage running live immediately.
In fact, If you used the Live CD to give your talk
Though I've never been to ISSAC (someone who has been, correct me if
I'm wrong), I get the impression that many of the people there would
have little C programs and scripts that they use/develop for
research. If this is the case then I think it would be worthwhile
expanding on the
I don't know if that is of any interest but someone around here might care
about the fact that Sage was probably the most mentioned (and cited)
mathematics software at the First Conference for Symbolic Computation and
Cryptography (SCC 2008) in Beijing.
Specifically, these
Wasn't Magnus Tim Daly's main example of a project in trouble
development and usage-wise? From this thread:
http://groups.google.com/group/sage-devel/browse_thread/thread/c65e235f83cb2cd1/93b5dc531e50bb1c?lnk=gstq=magnus#93b5dc531e50bb1c
Tim wrote:
the only person
who can properly maintain,
David,
But we've already had this discussion and it is clear that I'm
completely out-in-the-weeds, talking-nonsense, and obviously have
no idea how REAL-open-source-projects are done. So lets just leave
it where it left off before, which is that I've simply dropped the
attempt to give the
Jason, Please send me a diff-Naur patch of your changes. --Tim
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On the other hand: I couldn't find the python bindings, neither in the
sf tarball nor the sf svn/cvs repo. Any pointers? I couldn't find any
reference to python in any file:
The python bindings were created using SWIG. I'll see if I have a copy
(I no longer work at CCNY). Gilbert probably has
I WANT Sage to live. I want it to succeed. I want it to be the
lingua-franca of the business so that we can all post our results
in Sage at conferences. I want to be able to drag and drop
your publication onto my system and have your code just work,
your documentation just connect. I want to be
Michael,
On the other hand: I couldn't find the python bindings, neither in the
sf tarball nor the sf svn/cvs repo. Any pointers? I couldn't find any
reference to python in any file:
I found a copy of it. See
http://daly.axiom-developer.org/magnus_python.tgz
This will unpack into
But you still haven't told me: where is all this time going to come
from? I can't magically make more time appear. I have other things to
do. It's a damn shame.
http://nielsenhayden.com/makinglight/archives/010186.html#010186
and, for the record, I vote for MaryAnn. :-)
Tim
- It suffers from the OpenMath communication issue (e.g. if you
take an Axiom expression, export it to maple, compute with it,
and re-import it to Axiom you have violated a lot of type
assumptions in Axiom, possibly violated branch cut assumptions
(e.g. acosh), done invalid
I do believe that computational mathematics needs to become a more
rigorous subject. In fact, I'd like to see a piece of code written by
Tim upholding the standards he is advocating, where someone has taken
the time, because I would like to compare it to my own code and get
some ideas.
However,
My point was that information on branch cuts should either A) be
publicly available or B) preferably available as an export option.
Mathematica and Maple both do A. Perhaps B is the better answer for
open systems. In any event I stand by my point that this is only an
issue because people have a
I have a MAC OX X 10.4.4 build in process.
Its on a PowerPC (G4)
I'll make it available when it completes.
Tim
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Gary,
If you're interested in exploring Axiom's type system
the best source of material available is the Jenk's book.
It would be useful if Sage's type hierarchy was close to
the one Axiom uses, making it possible to share algorithms.
If you'll mail me a postal address (offline),
I'll send you
Have you copied the image?
Can I remove it?
Tim
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My Mac box is generally idle except when I'm doing the every-other-month
Axiom release. If you need images I can build them for OSX 10.4
Tim
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Sage 3.0 build failed. See:
http://daly.axiom-developer.org/sagelog.html
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..snip...
If the lisp community were alive and well
their tools would be alive and well. That is clearly not the case of
gcl and clisp certainly has some serious issues to deal with with
newer gcc releases as well as compilers not gcc.
I'm also on the clisp mailing
I feel that I have done more than a reasonable amount of work here. Do
you agree or disagree?
Have you done a reasonable amount of work? That's for you to judge
since you're the person with the need.
But lets see what seems to be going on with Clisp.
Sam's reply to you seems to be that you
sage -b solved it. thanks --Tim
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For example, is the fact that GCL doesn't build for us anywhere, something
that you think we'll get passed by just trying harder? Or is it going
to be really really hard.
http://axiom.axiom-developer.org/axiom-website/download.html
All versions are built with GCL. I do not have access to a
I think you'd feel the same frustrations with Python if you compiled
Python from scratch for every platform. You ship sources but assume
that the python language exists and is compatible, which is not likely
to be the case when 3.0 arrives. If you can assume the python
language,
why can't
Having spent a fair portion of my life porting software, I understand
the frustrations you feel. And having spent the bulk of my life using
Lisp I get the get-rid-of-lisp pushback. But a lot of astonishingly
good computer algebra exists in lisp (we won't discuss the reasons).
Reproducing
I have no idea why you think ECLS is a silver bullet.
I forgot one important argument here: With ecls you can embed the lisp
interpreter into an external library, hence we would be able to use
Maxima as a library instead of using the inefficient pexpect
interface. I am not sure how much work
For about 2/3 the things I personally want to output word wrap is
better, and for the other half, word wrap is worse.
The above sentence is mathematically inconsistent because I had half at the
beginning of the sentence, changed it to 2/3, but didn't change the
other half to 1/3.
Only if
Is there anybody at UW that is interested in meeting with some OLPC
people? (I'm cc'ing this to sage-devel, because people there are generally
interested in OLPC.)
I'm not in Seattle, so I can't meet with the OLPC people,
but a very enthusiastic +1 on this effort. Sounds awesome.
-Alex
Robert,
I briefly looked over your coercion model.
_repr_ This is the easiest way to define how your object prints
It should take a string representing your object
I takes one argument, do_latex
I might comment that Axiom uses an output domain that exports functions
for
William,
By the way, Richard Fateman pointed out to me offlist that
Maxima running on top of clisp _might_ be much
slower than Maxima on gcl. This could be relevant to
our benchmarking.
Not to start an implementation war but GCL compiles to C which
compiles to machine code whereas clisp is
Michael Abshoff made that comment. He's motivated by wanting
to port Sage to a wide range of architectures and keep everything
maintainable, since he works incredibly hard on that. He suffers
a huge amount trying to deal with build issues on various platforms
such as solaris, Linux PPC, etc.
William,
git can do this. Since git uses a hash it will always regenerate the
same hash from the same file.
In fact, git uses hashes all the way down the tree so you can just
look at the hash code of the root of the tree to see if anything
changes. Equal hash codes, even across the net, imply
Mike,
Using queues has made me quite a bit more productive, and I'd like to
avoid switching to a version control system without them. Also, the
git documentation leaves something to be desired compared to the
Mercurial book.
The queues feature in Mercurial is available independently in the
to guarantee uniqueness you know that any
root (or subtree) with equal hashs has the same code. This makes it
impossible to inject a virus. It also makes it very convenient to
recreate the exact sources used by a user reporting a bug since you
simply undo the changes until the root is equal and you
The core question of coercion is when I type a+b where a and b are
different types, where should the result live? To facilitate Sage
making rational inferences of this type, this is intimately tied to
the Parent/Element/Category discussion that occurred at Sage Days 7
and is the topic of
The core question of coercion is when I type a+b where a and b are
different types, where should the result live? To facilitate Sage
making rational inferences of this type, this is intimately tied to
the Parent/Element/Category discussion that occurred at Sage Days 7
and is the topic of
This comes up in the pdf versions of the various documentation files:
the tutorial, the reference manual, the programming manual, the
constructions file.
When you have a long-ish line in a verbatim environment, and it exceeds
the width of the page, it gets cut off. For an example (there are
The escape sequences look like old ansi-graphics sequences.
Is there a terminal setting somewhere?
Tim
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Anyway, I would be most comfortable if we found out from the jsmath
author (Davide Cervone, who I've cc'd and who sometimes reads sage-devel)
whether it is ok with him if we distribute the jsmath fons with the
sage distribution, even if said distribution could in some cases be sold
(to support
The Axiom draw function does implicit plots. -- Tim
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Computational Mathematics System?
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What distribution license does the rosetta tex file have?
Modified BSD.
I'd like Sage to be in the list so people from other systems
can have a clue what form they might type in Sage to get
similar results.
I was wondering why the Rosetta document lists GMP as a system?
I don't remember.
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