Exactly.
Theres no requirement that one flow the precise system demand during water
supply testing. Designers are free to use any value below the curve down to
20 psi residual. Obviously the wide the gap the more cushion against water
supply deterioration but from a code standpoint you can ride
I believe what Joe has encountered is an AHJ who doesn't realize what
EXTRAPOLATION on a water supply graph is. Interpolating a point on a curve
is when the demand falls between your static and residual points;
extrapolation is when the demand is past the point where the residual flow
was
The AHJ is what George said, not allowing me to extrapolate beyond the test
point on the curve of 1210 gpm. Does anyone know of any sections in NFPA
that would hint that I can extrapolate beyond the 1210 gpm or can't?
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
George,
Why not simply plot the curve on paper from static pressure/zero flow
all the way down to 20psi residual/maximum flow. (If your water purveyor
follows AWWA M31, 20psi is the minimum residual). Do that on everyjob,
really how much longer does it take one to extend the line. No
So you have run into a sprinkler scientist (AHJ). I feel your pain.
Balancing the flow in a system is a lost art completely ignored by the
computer programs we use today. Computer programs bump up the end head
pressure to create equal pressures at a flow split. Without knowing the
particulars of
Using NFPA 13-2002, paragraph 8.14.3.2 describes the
requirements for sprinklers in non-combustible stair
shafts.
Would a non-combustible construction stair shaft
(concrete stairs, sheetrock/rated walls) that has
carpet on the landings and stair treads be considered
non-combustible? Assuming the
Maybe.
Floor coverings, specifically carpet is considered interior finish
pursuant to 2006 IBC 804.4 and as such Class I (I-1 and I-2) , Class II
materials (A,B,E,H,I-4,M,R-1,R-2 and S) and DOC FF-1 compliant in all
the others. The exception allows interior finish requirements to be
bumped down
Joe,
What is GPM (Q) at 20psi residual (R20) on your supply curve ?
John
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe
Burtell
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 10:20 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Water Supply
The AHJ is what
There may be some support in NFPA 291.
Thom McMahon, SET
Firetech, Inc.
2560 Copper Ridge Dr
P.O. Box 882136
Steamboat Springs, CO 80488
Tel: 970-879-7952
Fax: 970-879-7926
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Joe Burtell
Sent: Thursday,
About 2100 GPM.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 9:45 AM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Water Supply
Joe,
What is GPM (Q) at 20psi residual (R20) on your supply curve ?
John
Most carpeting meets the definition of non-combustible, but I would
suggest checking the manufacturers cut sheet to verify.
Paul J. Pinigis, P.E.
Chief Life Safety Engineer
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Margaret
Zabel
Sent: Thursday,
Is this a multiple story building? If so, don't you still have to protect
the landings where egress and access happen?? Regardless of combustible
finishes?? NPFA 13; 8.15.3.3
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of John Drucker
Sent: Thursday,
Thanks very much. These answers are very helpful.
Margaret Zabel
--- Paul Pinigis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
Most carpeting meets the definition of
non-combustible, but I would
suggest checking the manufacturers cut sheet to
verify.
Paul J. Pinigis, P.E.
Chief Life Safety Engineer
That's only if it serves two or more fire divisions. Not always the case
just because it is a multi-story building. Check out the info in the
handbook on this.
Cliff Whitfield, SET
Fire Design, Inc
.-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of RFI -
Joe,
Its appears as though you have more then enough water (then again you
already knew this). I didn't ask you about pressure because that can be
resolved with a fire pump. I know other code officials who have
complained about some computer programs that don't draw the traditional
curve merely
Joe,
Although I am fairly convinced of the correct answer to this issue, I
looked back through the NFPA Handbook (18th Ed.) and found an
interesting statement with respect to this issue... It is not necessary
[in the example given in the text] nor should it become common practice,
to extrapolate
Eric,
Good point. In order to be accurate sufficient water must be flowed to
attain a 25% drop in pressure. (NFPA 291-4.3.6)
As a plan reviewer I've seen plenty of flat tests and back they go.
Wheres that stick.
John Drucker
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL
Ok guys and gals.here's one for ya.
Just did a pump acceptance test under 2003 edition of NFPA 20. The inspector
shows up on site and asks for calibrated gauges. Even though we pulled out a
gauge that came from the factory 3 months ago, he wanted to see the
paperwork. (I guess he didn't like
I meant to change the thread title on this one.
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of Ken Holsopple
(forum)
Sent: Thursday, July 31, 2008 4:41 PM
To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org
Subject: RE: Water Supply
Ok guys and gals.here's one for
Ken if you're doing BFP testing you get your test sets calibrated each year,
you can send your gauges in at the same time. Personally we keep two sets
and that way we are never without one as they expire one month apart.
Additionally if you run into this problem at test, I would offer to run the
Ken-
I use Shelby Jones (http://instrumentation.com/offline.aspx) and Gage-It
(http://www.gageitinc.com/). You could prob. send glc there by car.
Generally around $45/point with no repair. If you're using properly ranged
gauges, you only need 2 points.
I have around 25 different gauges,
John
Sometimes not that easy: This printer was allowed to tap into an 18
trunkmain, as that was the only reliable main within 1 mile.
We started the flowtest with 250 gpm, then went to 500 gpm, 750 gpm, 1000
gpm, 1250 gpm, and hit 1500 gpm, (this was 125% of total demand for
sprinklers and
Tom and Thom,
Shelby Jones = Any relation to Shirleyare they calibrated on a
multi-color bus?
Tommy D. - Glc woulda bet money that you would have responded to this one
before morning.
I am currently checking with the place we bought the gauges (Ametek [US
Gauge} Model #1980s) to verify we
Tom,
Fortunately it was a small pump and the gauge in question was the one used
on the single hose monster. Fortunate our pump rep. had one in his van with
the calibration paperwork.
Why would I need to re-test when the calibration is not required by NFPA 20
(03)?
Ken
-Original
Jack,
I think most would agree that a flat curve on a source producing 1500 gpm at
a residual of 95 psi is to say the least acceptable, how far out in pressure
do we hit 4,000 - 5,000 gpm, 77psi ?. Whats the most system demand with hose
stream on a typical LH, OH1 even an OH2, 700 gpm perhaps ?
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