RE: Pre-action abort
Maybe so but UL is not recognized or an adopted Code Set by any government entity so while it's wording may be logical and appropriate it's not necessarily enforceable. But in this case I would still cite it and use it to inform Mr. PE that he's totally clueless as to what he has designed and specified. First a D.I.P.A. for a few computers is gross overkill. Second with supervised piping, area smoke detection and closed sprinkler heads, if someone doesn't respond to the first alarm or second then it needs to go off. There is absolutely no good reason to have an abort switch in a P.A. system. But you would be surprised on how many times I've been asked this very question. Once I've explained the sequence of operation of a P.A. system the question will go away. This sounds like one of those projects that would be a real nightmare since you're obviously dealing with an EOR who already has his mind made up on what is proper and required and probably won't back down and look foolish to the owner. If you decide to pass I'd write a nice letter to the owner and explain why you did not bid on this project. If you do bid and win, I'd write another letter explaining the proper operation and purpose of a D.I.P.A. system and copy the engineer. Obviously the owner and EOR need some additional educating. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Forest Wilson Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:50 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But UL is the entity doing the listing. Forest Wilson -Original Message- From: Jay Jay Blocker fire_sprinkler...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:36:49 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum
RE: Pre-action abort
Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code Act 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field
RE: Pre-action abort
Very well spelt out John. I assume the word statute to also mean General Laws or (local) Ordinances? Tom Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code Act 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pre-action abort
It is true that the laboratory test standards do not fit into the hierarchy of code enforcement;; however, NFPA 13 requires the products used in sprinkler systems to be listed. As Mike stated, UL 864 requires that abort switches shall not be used on deluge or preaction systems. If an abort function is provided and is used on such systems, it would not meet the functional requirements of the test standard and not be recognized as listed. Salvatore Izzo, P.E. Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker [john.druc...@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code Act 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum
Re: Pre-action abort
Sent via BlackBerry by ATT -Original Message- From: Forest Wilson cherokeefire...@aol.com Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 23:50:27 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But UL is the entity doing the listing. Forest Wilson -Original Message- From: Jay Jay Blocker fire_sprinkler...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:36:49 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org ] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org ] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email
RE: Pre-action abort
Continuing the discussion, the answer to the question is simple does a statute, regulation or code prescribe an abort station on a deluge or preaction system ? Keep in mind that codes and standards are being written in positive language, i.e. whats permitted vs negative language, i.e. whats prohibited. Remember what state I'm from ?, Missouri. John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is true that the laboratory test standards do not fit into the hierarchy of code enforcement;; however, NFPA 13 requires the products used in sprinkler systems to be listed. As Mike stated, UL 864 requires that abort switches shall not be used on deluge or preaction systems. If an abort function is provided and is used on such systems, it would not meet the functional requirements of the test standard and not be recognized as listed. Salvatore Izzo, P.E. Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker [john.druc...@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code Act 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would
Re: Pre-action abort
I think even in special hazard systems an abort switch is not allowed unless it is a deadman abort switch. However, for a pre- action system, if the room were large enough, you would need to be concerned with too many heads opening even with a deadman abort. Justin D. Reid, P.E. RLH Fire Protection 16735 Saticoy St. #110 Van Nuys, CA 91406 213-798-0251 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 7, 2009, at 6:20 AM, John Drucker jdruc...@redbanknj.org wrote: Continuing the discussion, the answer to the question is simple does a statute, regulation or code prescribe an abort station on a deluge or preaction system ? Keep in mind that codes and standards are being written in positive language, i.e. whats permitted vs negative language, i.e. whats prohibited. Remember what state I'm from ?, Missouri. John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is true that the laboratory test standards do not fit into the hierarchy of code enforcement;; however, NFPA 13 requires the products used in sprinkler systems to be listed. As Mike stated, UL 864 requires that abort switches shall not be used on deluge or preaction systems. If an abort function is provided and is used on such systems, it would not meet the functional requirements of the test standard and not be recognized as listed. Salvatore Izzo, P.E. Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker [john.druc...@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code Act 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection
RE: Pre-action abort
John, Potter manufactures a release panel that has a zone that can be programmed as an abort circuit or a supervisory zone. As part of our listing we were required by UL to state that the abort circuit on pre-action and deluge systems is not permitted by UL 864. In my opinion that means that programming the zone to be an abort circuit for a pre-action system would mean the panel would not be in compliance with UL not be listed for that system. The statue, regulation or code requiring the abort circuit probably also requires a listed panel. So the statue, regulation or code would require something that cannot be accomplished, an abort switch on a listed pre-action panel. Regards mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Continuing the discussion, the answer to the question is simple does a statute, regulation or code prescribe an abort station on a deluge or preaction system ? Keep in mind that codes and standards are being written in positive language, i.e. whats permitted vs negative language, i.e. whats prohibited. Remember what state I'm from ?, Missouri. John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is true that the laboratory test standards do not fit into the hierarchy of code enforcement;; however, NFPA 13 requires the products used in sprinkler systems to be listed. As Mike stated, UL 864 requires that abort switches shall not be used on deluge or preaction systems. If an abort function is provided and is used on such systems, it would not meet the functional requirements of the test standard and not be recognized as listed. Salvatore Izzo, P.E. Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker [john.druc...@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code Act 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort
RE: Pre-action abort
Obviously the spec for this project was for a gaseous system that the EOR used and just changed any reference from gas to P.A. First clue that someone is practicing outside their area of expertise. Imagine the fun when he tries to review shop drawings. Typically the first signal with be the smoke detectors, if they are cross zoned you have two distinct devices that agree that there is smoke present. Alarms are going off, who's responding? If the fire event continues then you will ultimately have a sprinkler open, releasing pressure in the system and allowing the P.A. valve to open, now you've got a fire, who's responding? In the D.I.P.A. system there's no real justification for an abort sequence. The owner has multiple alarms notifying him of an event in progress. Within the time frame of the first S.D. he has time to take corrective measures to manually correct the situation. Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Justin Reid Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:17 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Cc: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort I think even in special hazard systems an abort switch is not allowed unless it is a deadman abort switch. However, for a pre- action system, if the room were large enough, you would need to be concerned with too many heads opening even with a deadman abort. Justin D. Reid, P.E. RLH Fire Protection 16735 Saticoy St. #110 Van Nuys, CA 91406 213-798-0251 Sent from my iPhone On Apr 7, 2009, at 6:20 AM, John Drucker jdruc...@redbanknj.org wrote: Continuing the discussion, the answer to the question is simple does a statute, regulation or code prescribe an abort station on a deluge or preaction system ? Keep in mind that codes and standards are being written in positive language, i.e. whats permitted vs negative language, i.e. whats prohibited. Remember what state I'm from ?, Missouri. John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is true that the laboratory test standards do not fit into the hierarchy of code enforcement;; however, NFPA 13 requires the products used in sprinkler systems to be listed. As Mike stated, UL 864 requires that abort switches shall not be used on deluge or preaction systems. If an abort function is provided and is used on such systems, it would not meet the functional requirements of the test standard and not be recognized as listed. Salvatore Izzo, P.E. Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker [john.druc...@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code Act 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Jay Jay Blocker Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 11:37 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local
RE: Pre-action abort
Mike, Here are two examples; N.J.A.C. 5:23-3.14 - 2006 IBC/NJ 903.3.1.2.1 Balconies and decks. Sprinkler protection shall be provided for exterior balconies, decks and ground floor patios of dwelling units where the building is of Type V construction. Sidewall sprinklers that are used to protect such areas shall be permitted to be located such that their deflectors are within 1 inch (25mm) to 6 inches (152 mm) below the structural members and a maximum distance of 14 inches (356 mm) below the deck of the exterior balconies and decks that are constructed of open wood joist construction. N.J.A.C. 5:23-6.29 Mixed use buildings (c) Alarms: In any nonresidential use located below one or more dwelling units (including single room occupancies), when the work area exceeds 50 percent of the gross enclosed floor area of the nonresidential use, single or multiple station smoke alarms shall be installed in the nonresidential portion(s) of the building in accordance with NFPA 72 and provided with an audible alarm located within each dwelling unit of the residential portion of the building. The alarms shall be AC powered with battery back-up. Hard-wired, interconnected smoke alarms installed throughout the building shall be accepted as meeting this requirement. Are either of these applications compliant with the listing standard and or listing ? So in essence if the promulgating authority prescribes it so it shall be, obviously they have that authority. In the case of the Preaction/Deluge Abort I am not aware of a prescriptive regulation or code section that requires this. In other words we fall back on the adopted standards, listings etc, i.e. its not permitted. Hope that helps John Drucker Fire Protection Subcode Official Disclaimer-This is only my opinion, is not binding on anyone. Consult with the authority having jurisdiction. -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Mike Henke Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:27 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort John, Potter manufactures a release panel that has a zone that can be programmed as an abort circuit or a supervisory zone. As part of our listing we were required by UL to state that the abort circuit on pre-action and deluge systems is not permitted by UL 864. In my opinion that means that programming the zone to be an abort circuit for a pre-action system would mean the panel would not be in compliance with UL not be listed for that system. The statue, regulation or code requiring the abort circuit probably also requires a listed panel. So the statue, regulation or code would require something that cannot be accomplished, an abort switch on a listed pre-action panel. Regards mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 8:20 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Continuing the discussion, the answer to the question is simple does a statute, regulation or code prescribe an abort station on a deluge or preaction system ? Keep in mind that codes and standards are being written in positive language, i.e. whats permitted vs negative language, i.e. whats prohibited. Remember what state I'm from ?, Missouri. John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Sal Izzo (TECH- 103) Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 9:04 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is true that the laboratory test standards do not fit into the hierarchy of code enforcement;; however, NFPA 13 requires the products used in sprinkler systems to be listed. As Mike stated, UL 864 requires that abort switches shall not be used on deluge or preaction systems. If an abort function is provided and is used on such systems, it would not meet the functional requirements of the test standard and not be recognized as listed. Salvatore Izzo, P.E. Manager - Reliable Technical Services From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of John Drucker [john.druc...@verizon.net] Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:29 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding
RE: Pre-action abort
This appears to be a poorly worded or badly written/copied spec. Not an unusual occurrence when non FPE's are involved with the Fire Protection. I'd bid the job as I would normally install it, and where is say's Per plans and spec's I note Exceptions taken If you are the low bidder, they'll call and ask what your exceptions are. If you're not low bidder, they won't be calling anyway. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Reasoning from a non-sprinkler proficient PE? That's self explanatory. I haven't the foggiest idea why one would want it. As I said won't return calls, bid due shortly. We're talking 10 PC's in a training classroom, college like, 2400 sq.ft. Then there is a second PA in a comm. room that is 300 sq.ft. which I imagine is the servers to run said PC's and connect to the WWW. Why both rooms aren't on the same PA I don't know that either. Suspect PE is working of % of contract. Also, local gov't work isn't allowed to be cheap so when wet system prices fall something has to be added so we last few taxpayers get our moneys worth? This ain't no billion dollar server farm. There is also a clean agent someplace but I don't know where and not my scope of work so I really don't care. But adds to the oddity of it all. Spec reads like a FM-200 or the like but is clearly for the double interlock PA. 1. Upon activation of smoke detector energize predischarge strobe and bell. 2. Activate a time delay sequence and enable abort sequence. 3. Abort station shall reset the 30 second time delay. Now technically he never specs an electric/pneumatic. Could always do pneumatic/pneumatic to solve the problem. I don't like it either but before I start a fight I want to know which side I'm on. (And just because I might be on the losing side code wise doesn't mean I won't start it anyway). Chris Cahill, P.E. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Pre-action abort
Then there's the alternative means and methods clause which pretty much allows someone to decide gasoline in the pipes to keep them new and shiny is OK as long as the AHJ approves it. Now gasoline is an obvious no-no even when the AHJ is the dog catcher by day, crime fighter by night AHJ by hobby, but what about an abort switch if Mr. PE says it's OK? Even a semi-savvy, over-worked AHJ might think water damage in this server room might be devastating. The double interlock pre-action system is obviously better than single (even though designed originally for freezer warehouses--essentially an extra slow dry pipe) and way superior to wet--that is if your goal is to not stop fires but rather stop water damage. Then the abort switch makes even more sense and allows the stockroom clerk, who is, after all, on the scene, to make decisions about fire protection during an emergency situation. And then there's the precedence of an abort switch on the wonder gas system. Isn't the presence of the wonder gas successfully used over and over to argue against the need for sprinklers in rooms containing computers? The AHJ described above, not savvy to UL 864 (after all, what does a fire alarm panel listing protocol have to do with fire sprinklers?), just might be happy to defer to the educational and professional credentials of Mr. PE. On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Thom McMahon tmcma...@firetechinc.com wrote: This appears to be a poorly worded or badly written/copied spec. Not an unusual occurrence when non FPE's are involved with the Fire Protection. I'd bid the job as I would normally install it, and where is say's Per plans and spec's I note Exceptions taken If you are the low bidder, they'll call and ask what your exceptions are. If you're not low bidder, they won't be calling anyway. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Reasoning from a non-sprinkler proficient PE? That's self explanatory. I haven't the foggiest idea why one would want it. As I said won't return calls, bid due shortly. We're talking 10 PC's in a training classroom, college like, 2400 sq.ft. Then there is a second PA in a comm. room that is 300 sq.ft. which I imagine is the servers to run said PC's and connect to the WWW. Why both rooms aren't on the same PA I don't know that either. Suspect PE is working of % of contract. Also, local gov't work isn't allowed to be cheap so when wet system prices fall something has to be added so we last few taxpayers get our moneys worth? This ain't no billion dollar server farm. There is also a clean agent someplace but I don't know where and not my scope of work so I really don't care. But adds to the oddity of it all. Spec reads like a FM-200 or the like but is clearly for the double interlock PA. 1. Upon activation of smoke detector energize predischarge strobe and bell. 2. Activate a time delay sequence and enable abort sequence. 3. Abort station shall reset the 30 second time delay. Now technically he never specs an electric/pneumatic. Could always do pneumatic/pneumatic to solve the problem. I don't like it either but before I start a fight I want to know which side I'm on. (And just because I might be on the losing side code wise doesn't mean I won't start it anyway). Chris Cahill, P.E. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pre-action abort
Aw Ron, you're just being cynical. None of that would ever happen.wink Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 12:00 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort Then there's the alternative means and methods clause which pretty much allows someone to decide gasoline in the pipes to keep them new and shiny is OK as long as the AHJ approves it. Now gasoline is an obvious no-no even when the AHJ is the dog catcher by day, crime fighter by night AHJ by hobby, but what about an abort switch if Mr. PE says it's OK? Even a semi-savvy, over-worked AHJ might think water damage in this server room might be devastating. The double interlock pre-action system is obviously better than single (even though designed originally for freezer warehouses--essentially an extra slow dry pipe) and way superior to wet--that is if your goal is to not stop fires but rather stop water damage. Then the abort switch makes even more sense and allows the stockroom clerk, who is, after all, on the scene, to make decisions about fire protection during an emergency situation. And then there's the precedence of an abort switch on the wonder gas system. Isn't the presence of the wonder gas successfully used over and over to argue against the need for sprinklers in rooms containing computers? The AHJ described above, not savvy to UL 864 (after all, what does a fire alarm panel listing protocol have to do with fire sprinklers?), just might be happy to defer to the educational and professional credentials of Mr. PE. On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 8:20 AM, Thom McMahon tmcma...@firetechinc.com wrote: This appears to be a poorly worded or badly written/copied spec. Not an unusual occurrence when non FPE's are involved with the Fire Protection. I'd bid the job as I would normally install it, and where is say's Per plans and spec's I note Exceptions taken If you are the low bidder, they'll call and ask what your exceptions are. If you're not low bidder, they won't be calling anyway. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:09 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Reasoning from a non-sprinkler proficient PE? That's self explanatory. I haven't the foggiest idea why one would want it. As I said won't return calls, bid due shortly. We're talking 10 PC's in a training classroom, college like, 2400 sq.ft. Then there is a second PA in a comm. room that is 300 sq.ft. which I imagine is the servers to run said PC's and connect to the WWW. Why both rooms aren't on the same PA I don't know that either. Suspect PE is working of % of contract. Also, local gov't work isn't allowed to be cheap so when wet system prices fall something has to be added so we last few taxpayers get our moneys worth? This ain't no billion dollar server farm. There is also a clean agent someplace but I don't know where and not my scope of work so I really don't care. But adds to the oddity of it all. Spec reads like a FM-200 or the like but is clearly for the double interlock PA. 1. Upon activation of smoke detector energize predischarge strobe and bell. 2. Activate a time delay sequence and enable abort sequence. 3. Abort station shall reset the 30 second time delay. Now technically he never specs an electric/pneumatic. Could always do pneumatic/pneumatic to solve the problem. I don't like it either but before I start a fight I want to know which side I'm on. (And just because I might be on the losing side code wise doesn't mean I won't start it anyway). Chris Cahill, P.E. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field
RE: Pre-action abort
The better answer might be Firecycle type system by Viking. Thom McMahon, SET Firetech, Inc. 2560 Copper Ridge Dr P.O. Box 882136 Steamboat Springs, CO 80488 Tel: 970-879-7952 Fax: 970-879-7926 Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:00 AM if your goal is to not stop fires but rather stop water damage. Then the abort switch makes even more sense and allows the stockroom clerk, who is, after all, on the scene, to make decisions about fire protection during an emergency situation. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pre-action abort
And here's your stock room guy, yes capable of making even the most critical of decisions in any emergency situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tma-zFkDEY I feel better now... Anyone got an umbrella? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:00 AM if your goal is to not stop fires but rather stop water damage. Then the abort switch makes even more sense and allows the stockroom clerk, who is, after all, on the scene, to make decisions about fire protection during an emergency situation. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Pre-action abort
I know this guy. He's brilliant. He's managed to clone himself many times over. On Tue, Apr 7, 2009 at 9:22 AM, craig.pr...@ch2m.com wrote: And here's your stock room guy, yes capable of making even the most critical of decisions in any emergency situation. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2tma-zFkDEY I feel better now... Anyone got an umbrella? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com Ron Greenman Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 10:00 AM if your goal is to not stop fires but rather stop water damage. Then the abort switch makes even more sense and allows the stockroom clerk, who is, after all, on the scene, to make decisions about fire protection during an emergency situation. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pre-action abort
Tom, Statute: A law enacted by a legislature. The NJ State Legislature consists of two Houses: a 40-member Senate and an 80-member General Assembly. The Senate and Assembly chambers are located in the State House in Trenton. The chief function of the Legislature is to enact laws. A proposal to make a new law, or to change or repeal an existing law, is presented to the Legislature as a bill. To become law, a bill must pass both Houses by a majority vote and be approved by the Governor. At the general election in November 1992, the voters approved a constitutional amendment permitting the Legislature to review administrative rules and regulations. Ordinance; An ordinance is a local law. The State of NJ is made up of 566 municipalities each with its own governing ring body. Although the method of enacting an ordinance will vary from municipality to municipality, they are generally passed by the governing body and signed by the municipal executive or mayor and subsequently enforced by local police, code enforcement and municipal prosecutors. The NJ Uniform Construction Code is administered at the state level, municipalities are conveyed enforcement powers if they so choose. The municipality then becomes the Local Enforcing agency. Inspectors and Plan Reviewers are licensed by the state government. Municipalities do not have the authority to modify, amend or suspend the provisions of the NJ Uniform Construction Code. Hope that helps John Drucker -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Tom Duross Sent: Tuesday, April 07, 2009 6:53 AM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Very well spelt out John. I assume the word statute to also mean General Laws or (local) Ordinances? Tom Great question. Listings don't seem to have the effect one would assume. We often hear must be installed in accordance with the listing, or product listed for the intended purpose. Then we see prescriptive code applications such as deck and balcony sprinklers and smoke alarms used in other then dwelling units. The government can pretty much do as it pleases in the pursuit of safeguarding building occupants and emergency responders It's about the hierarchy of code enforcement, it goes something like this; 1. Statutes = The Legislative action, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code Act 2. Regulations = The Department or Commissioner rule making, in NJ the Uniform Construction Code 3. Codes= The where and when side of the equation, in NJ the 2006 IBC/NJ Edition, amongst many others. 4. Reference Standards = The how side of the equation, in NJ the 2002 Edition of NFPA-13 for example. 5. Manufacturer's Instructions = The specific how for a specific product. 6. Listings = The nationally recognized testing lab that evaluated the product for fitness. I'm sure there are variants at municipal, county and even federal levels. Bottom line if a statute, regulation or code prescribes it then so it shall be. Hope that helps, John Drucker ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) CONFIDENTIAL AND PROPRIETARY: This email message is intended only for the use of the individual or entity to which it is addressed and may contain information that is privileged and confidential, nor is it, unless specifically stated, intended to be relied upon by any person or persons other than the individual or entity named above and no warranties or representations are made or intended to persons or entities not named above. If the reader is not the intended recipient, you are hereby notified that any dissemination, distribution or copying of this communication is strictly prohibited. If you have received this communication in error, please notify us immediately by telephone, return this message to the address above and delete all copies. Thank you. ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Pre-action abort
Chris, In jails I've seen electrically operated zone valves with a 90 second time delay before the valves were opened, an open now override, and an abort to each valve but that required CCTV and a constantly manned station wherein the operator had complete control over the cameras and operation of the valves. These are always on wet systems and I'd suspect that they required a PE to bless them. On Mon, Apr 6, 2009 at 2:15 PM, Chris Cahill chr...@sentryfiremn.com wrote: Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) -- Ron Greenman at home ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pre-action abort
Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pre-action abort
Reasoning from a non-sprinkler proficient PE? That's self explanatory. I haven't the foggiest idea why one would want it. As I said won't return calls, bid due shortly. We're talking 10 PC's in a training classroom, college like, 2400 sq.ft. Then there is a second PA in a comm. room that is 300 sq.ft. which I imagine is the servers to run said PC's and connect to the WWW. Why both rooms aren't on the same PA I don't know that either. Suspect PE is working of % of contract. Also, local gov't work isn't allowed to be cheap so when wet system prices fall something has to be added so we last few taxpayers get our moneys worth? This ain't no billion dollar server farm. There is also a clean agent someplace but I don't know where and not my scope of work so I really don't care. But adds to the oddity of it all. Spec reads like a FM-200 or the like but is clearly for the double interlock PA. 1. Upon activation of smoke detector energize predischarge strobe and bell. 2. Activate a time delay sequence and enable abort sequence. 3. Abort station shall reset the 30 second time delay. Now technically he never specs an electric/pneumatic. Could always do pneumatic/pneumatic to solve the problem. I don't like it either but before I start a fight I want to know which side I'm on. (And just because I might be on the losing side code wise doesn't mean I won't start it anyway). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
RE: Pre-action abort
It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Pre-action abort
But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
Re: Pre-action abort
But UL is the entity doing the listing. Forest Wilson -Original Message- From: Jay Jay Blocker fire_sprinkler...@yahoo.com Date: Mon, 6 Apr 2009 20:36:49 To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Re: Pre-action abort But where does the UL rank in order? By this I mean if the local area has adopted 13 and 25 do they also have to take into account ULs rules or just say as long as the device is listed it is good? From: Mike Henke mi...@pottersignal.com To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Sent: Monday, April 6, 2009 4:45:14 PM Subject: RE: Pre-action abort It is prohibited by UL. UL 864 states: Abort switches shall not be used on systems intended to perform pre-action or deluge functions. Regards, mike Mike Henke CET Sprinkler Product Manager Potter Electric Signal Co. LLC WWW.POTTERSIGNAL.COM 866-572-3005 -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of craig.pr...@ch2m.com Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 4:29 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: RE: Pre-action abort Question one: Why? Question two: At what stage of system response do you want to abort? There is no mention anywhere in NFPA 13 about the allowance or disallowance of an abort switch. I just can't see where anyone would be quick enough to get to it if something in the system started an operation anyway. With all the delays already built in to a double interlock system what in the world could another interruption accomplish? I would not be in favor of it. But for the sake of curiosity, what's the application and reasoning behind the question? Craig L. Prahl, CET Fire Protection Specialist Mechanical Department CH2MHILL Lockwood Greene 1500 International Drive PO Box 491, Spartanburg, SC 29304-0491 Direct - 864.599.4102 Fax - 864.599.8439 craig.pr...@ch2m.com http://www.ch2m.com -Original Message- From: sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org [mailto:sprinklerforum-boun...@firesprinkler.org] On Behalf Of Chris Cahill Sent: Monday, April 06, 2009 5:15 PM To: sprinklerforum@firesprinkler.org Subject: Pre-action abort Can one have an abort button on a double interlock pre-action (electric/pneumatic)? I'm assuming it would be like on a clean agent system. PE hasn't got back to us (don't really expect him to, not a surprise). Chris Cahill, P.E. Fire Protection Engineer Sentry Fire Protection, Inc. 763-658-4483 763-658-4921 fax Email: chr...@sentryfiremn.com Mail: P.O. Box 69 Waverly, MN 55390 Location: 4439 Hwy 12 SW Waverly, MN 55390 ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field) ___ Sprinklerforum mailing list http://lists.firesprinkler.org/mailman/listinfo/sprinklerforum For Technical Assistance, send an email to: techsupp...@firesprinkler.org To Unsubscribe, send an email to:sprinklerforum-requ...@firesprinkler.org (Put the word unsubscribe in the subject field)
