Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 7:11 AM
To: sqlite-users at mailinglists.sqlite.org
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 22:05:12 -0700
Darren Duncan wrote:
> I also believe the world is ripe to have SQL alternatives, its just a
> matter of ones appearing t
users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Marc L. Allen
Sent: Friday, 19 June 2015 1:10 AM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
Frankly, I've avoided taking
e - andl.org
-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Marc L. Allen
Sent: Thursday, 18 June 2015 11:51 PM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQ
> On Jun 18, 2015, at 11:11 PM, James K. Lowden
> wrote:
>
> There's a reason Larry Ellison can affort a yacht almost 500 feet long.
And an island to moor it.
In any case, best luck to David and his project. He will need it.
uncan
Sent: Thursday, 18 June 2015 5:29 PM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
I disagree with the idea that a good SQL alternative would just be a superset
of SQL as you propose.
That has already been done numerous times
> On Jun 18, 2015, at 5:10 PM, Marc L. Allen
> wrote:
>
> Frankly, I've avoided taking a close look at Andl because of its massive use
> of special characters. I can usually work out a rough meaning on your
> examples because I know the SQL it came from. If I became 'Andl proficient'
> it
Simon Slavin wrote:
> The thing I always found interesting about SQL was that it picks three
> English words, INSERT, DELETE, UPDATE, and says that that's all you need to
> do. And it's right ! Is there something special about the 'three-ness' of
> database operations ? Or are you meant to think
On Wed, 17 Jun 2015 22:05:12 -0700
Darren Duncan wrote:
> I also believe the world is ripe to have SQL alternatives, its just
> a matter of ones appearing that are compelling to users for real work
> and not just an academic exercise. The fact we're still generally
> with SQL means this hasn't ha
Thanks for your response, James, and I agree with what you've said.
My own language family, Muldis D, takes all of those things into account.
For examples of this:
1. Muldis D is a general purpose language like for applications but it also is
fundamentally savvy to the needs and features of re
2015 11:58 PM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org [mailto:sqlite-
> users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of david at and
I should also clarify that I don't see SQL as *a* language but rather as a
family of languages. Each actual SQL language in the family is whatever some
particular SQL DBMS actually implements and how it behaves. So eg "SQLite SQL"
is *a* SQL language, with generally a distinct version for each
On 2015-06-18 3:35 AM, ajm at zator.com wrote:
> Darren:
>
> Maybe you're right. But to that relationship of "goodness" that would be
> desirable, perhaps we should add a few drops of pragmatism. Experience shows
> that in many cases, the perfect is the enemy of the good, and despite a
> disrupt
> Mensaje original
> De:
> Para: "'General Discussion of SQLite Database'" mailinglists.sqlite.org>
> Fecha: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:50:40 +1000
> Asunto: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
>
Darren:
Maybe you're rig
AM
To: 'General Discussion of SQLite Database'
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
Yes, yours is the kind of situation Andl is aimed at. It does most of that
stuff, but it's not ready for prime time yet. It's amazingly good at doing
complex queries in just
je original
> De:
> Para: "'General Discussion of SQLite Database'" mailinglistssqlite.org>
> Fecha: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:50:40 +1000
> Asunto: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
>
>The question for now is: does a new database programming language have a
>place?
>
unces at mailinglists.sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Darren Duncan
Sent: Thursday, 18 June 2015 5:29 PM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
I disagree with the idea that a good SQ
t;> Mensaje original
>> De:
>> Para: "'General Discussion of SQLite Database'"> mailinglistssqlite.org>
>> Fecha: Thu, 18 Jun 2015 14:50:40 +1000
>> Asunto: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
>>
>> The question for now is: does a new database programming language have a
>> place?
On 2015-06-17 9:50 PM, david at andl.org wrote:
> The question for now is: does a new database programming language have a
> place?
When you ask the question as broadly as that, the answer is most definitely
"yes".
Just look at the wider world and you see there are dozens of application
program
es at mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Simon
Slavin
Sent: Wednesday, 17 June 2015 6:11 AM
To: sqlite-users at sqlite.org; General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
On 16 Jun 2015, at 7:44pm, James K. Lowden wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> What would
rg
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org
> [mailto:sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of
> Aleksey Tulinov
> Sent: Monday, 15 June 2015 10:32 AM
> To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
> Subject: Re:
On 17 Jun 2015, at 3:44am, Marc L. Allen wrote:
> I don't know. Back in the day, assembly was low-level because it was directly
> converted to machine code. C was high level because you could express more
> complex structures without worrying about the underlying architecture.
C was designed
Marco,
>There's never been that kind of tone, the article has been written to
>point
>new Mozilla codebase contributors at possible pitfalls we already hit in
>the past, and actually help them making informed decisions.
That's not how one reads it. Start with only the title:
"Performance/Avoid
ASFAIK also gcc uses some kind of intermediate rapresentation during
compilation process... gimple (gcc -fdump-tree-all) and rtl (-dump-rtl-all)
Il 16/giu/2015 22:40, "Simon Slavin" ha scritto:
> Since this thread has ... become what it is ... I may as well add a couple
> of details.
>
> The wide
I don't know. Back in the day, assembly was low-level because it was directly
converted to machine code. C was high level because you could express more
complex structures without worrying about the underlying architecture.
I still like that distinction. I think people are trying to call C low
Since this thread has ... become what it is ... I may as well add a couple of
details.
The widely-used compiler LLVM uses an intermediate representation of your code,
called 'Bitcode'. In other words, it's not a simple case of compiling straight
to object code. This feeds into some distinctio
On 16 Jun 2015, at 7:44pm, James K. Lowden wrote:
> wrote:
>
>> What would make a database programming better, or best?
>
> Two things I've often pointed to are namespaces and regular
> expressions. Another is compound datatypes.
I don't have your problem with namespaces since, to me, the
On 2015-06-16 11:44 AM, James K. Lowden wrote:
> On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 09:56:38 +1000 wrote:
>
>> The question is: what should a database language do? Andl can already
>> match or surpass SQL on database programming tasks, but is that
>> interesting enough?
>>
>> What would make a database programmi
te.org] On Behalf Of Jonathan
Moules
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 4:33 PM
To: 'General Discussion of SQLite Database'
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
> The question is: what should a database language do? Andl can already match
> or surpass SQL on datab
c.
Cheers,
Jonathan
-Original Message-
From: sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of
da...@andl.org
Sent: Tuesday, June 16, 2015 12:57 AM
To: ajm at zator.com; 'General Discussion of SQLite Database'
Subject: Re: [
On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 09:56:38 +1000
wrote:
> The question is: what should a database language do? Andl can already
> match or surpass SQL on database programming tasks, but is that
> interesting enough?
>
> What would make a database programming better, or best?
Two things I've often pointed to
On Tue, 16 Jun 2015 10:36:45 +0200
Marco Bonardo wrote:
> The contents of the page came out from actual bugs and misuses we hit
> in years of use and experience with it and were discussed with
> attention. Most also have workarounds or suggested fixes.
While I'm sure that's true, the page is fil
2015-06-16 1:36 GMT+02:00 Jean-Christophe Deschamps :
> While I can agree with some of the most obvious "don't be dumb" remarks,
> there are many things that can't be let unchallenged. And I don't
> appreciate the overall tone: "WE at MozillaBigBalls are all clever enough
> to use SQLite smartly b
With a relational model you have a choice between relational calculus or
relational algebra. SQL does one of them.
I have used a language which did the other, long ago in a land far away.
On Tue, Jun 16, 2015 at 9:56 AM, wrote:
> >>>I think the best database language should reflect how earthlin
2015-06-15 18:05 GMT+02:00 Jean Chevalier :
> What I'm thinking now is to what extent the developer who put up the
> Mozilla wiki page was entitled to put up opinions and statements either
> expressed or implied about a third-party product on behalf of the Mozilla
> Foundation (though is that the
>>>I think the best database language should reflect how earthlings think
about the data, and the best computer programming language would reflect
easily the result we want get from them.
Care to expand on that?
I'm developing a new database language: Andl. My starting point has been the
relation
In my tool box, I have a tack hammer, a claw hammer and a nail gun.
I broke my fingernail with the tack hammer.
I still have the bandaid on my thumb from the claw hammer.
Now I just have to read the instruction manual for the nail gun
I've refrained to comment about the OP linked page but I can't resist
that long. I won't enter the C, C--, C++, C#, Java, Python, COBOL,
Basic, assembler, Ruby, YouNameIt sub-debate.
I found the rant on MozillaWiki way too wrong on too many points to
keep quiet.
While I can agree with some of
Am Sun, 14 Jun 2015 21:01:33 -0400 schrieb Stephen Chrzanowski:
> Its like going back to Visual Basic and including the
> interpreter in your "compiled" application with your source code basically
> copy/pasted right into the final EXE output (Encrypted/obfuscated/whatever).
Off topic indeed, but
rs-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org
[mailto:sqlite-users-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Alex Bowden
Sent: Monday, 15 June 2015 7:46 PM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
Oh dear. So you think that a high level
[mailto:sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Scott
Doctor
Sent: Monday, 15 June 2015 5:03 PM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
On 6/14/2015 11:28 PM, david at andl.org wrote:
> I won't abuse the pa
> Mensaje original
> De: Scott Hess
> Para: General Discussion of SQLite Database mailinglists.sqlite.org>
> Fecha: Sun, 14 Jun 2015 10:10:24 -0700
> Asunto: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
>
While certainly, the thread has derived from the co
What I'm thinking now is to what extent the developer who put up the Mozilla
wiki page was entitled to put up opinions and statements either expressed or
implied about a third-party product on behalf of the Mozilla Foundation (though
is that the same Foundation that pays the Consortium member fe
Behalf Of Aleksey
Tulinov
Sent: Monday, 15 June 2015 10:32 AM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
On 15/06/15 01:00, Simon Slavin wrote:
Simon,
> Perhaps the next generation of computer languages will be designed by
computer, to
> On 15 Jun 2015, at 15:44, Scott Robison wrote:
>
> Too many of these technology based discussions (whether languages or
> operating systems or text editors or database engines or whatever) break
> down into almost a religious fervor of "this is the one true
You mean like your comment from thi
s.sqlite.org [mailto:
> sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Alex Bowden
> Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 11:00 AM
> To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
> Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
>
>
> > On 15 Jun 2015, at 15:44, Scott Robison
Oh dear. So you think that a high level language is one that does things by
calling a lower level language? Stop embarrassing yourself.
A high level language is one where the language designers are free to use
whatever structural concepts best fit the problems that the language is
designed to
-boun...@mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Alex Bowden
Sent: Monday, June 15, 2015 11:00 AM
To: General Discussion of SQLite Database
Subject: Re: [sqlite] Mozilla wiki 'avoid SQLite'
> On 15 Jun 2015, at 15:44, Scott Robison wrote:
>
> Too many of these technology ba
Andl - A New Database Language - andl.org
>
> -Original Message-
> From: sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org [mailto:
> sqlite-users-bounces at mailinglists.sqlite.org] On Behalf Of Alex Bowden
> Sent: Monday, 15 June 2015 7:46 PM
> To: General Discussion of SQLi
On 15/06/15 01:00, Simon Slavin wrote:
Simon,
> Perhaps the next generation of computer languages will be designed by
> computer, to let us speak to them in an efficient manner.
>
I'm sure computer would insist on C, if not, then it's apparently a
software bug.
On a serious note, i think it's
On 6/14/2015 11:28 PM, david at andl.org wrote:
> I won't abuse the patience of our hosts by prolonging this debate, but I
> disagree strongly with this theme.
So you disagree with a disagreement?
> I have almost certainly written more C/C++ code than you or most of the
> people on this list,
I
On 14 Jun 2015, at 9:19pm, Richard Hipp wrote:
> There was a huge debate in
> the software industry in the 1980s about whether applications should
> be coded in assembly or C. Hand-coded assembly is theoretically
> faster than machine-code generated by a C compiler (or at least it was
> in the
I as well disagree that "the higher language, the better". The bloat .NET
adds to the application size for both processing, memory and drive usage is
astronomical. Its like going back to Visual Basic and including the
interpreter in your "compiled" application with your source code basically
copy
Bottom line point, the general "feeling" of that page is to dissuade people
from even CONSIDERING using SQLite for future enhancements (Considering the
age of that page). I won't get on board with that.
What I meant by "common sense" is more towards the hardware the software is
going to be used o
On Sun, Jun 14, 2015 at 1:19 PM, Richard Hipp wrote:
> On 6/14/15, Scott Hess wrote:
>> SQLite essentially gives you a set of
>> b-trees with syntactic sugar over them,
>
> SQL (and I speak in general terms here, not just of SQLite) provides
> way more than syntactic sugar over b-trees. The synt
On 14 Jun 2015, at 4:43pm, Stephen Chrzanowski wrote:
> Most of that looks to be more like common sense things rather than SQLite
> specific, so why they're calling out SQLite, I've no idea.
Because the SQLite engine is part of FireFox, and SQLite calls are very easy to
do from parts of, and e
On 14 Jun 2015, at 2:08pm, Jean Chevalier wrote:
> Somewhat contradictory the Mozilla Foundation being a member of the SQLite
> Consortium while their performance wiki prominently features a warning to
> developers against using SQLite allegedly for performance reasons. Guard me
> from my fri
The irony of your comment (which I entirely agree with) is that because
SQLite (and similar) does so much incredibly important stuff for you, it
ends up being difficult for programmers to use it, especially the lower
level the programming is. They don't understand the model of how the system
works,
On 6/14/15, Scott Hess wrote:
> SQLite essentially gives you a set of
> b-trees with syntactic sugar over them,
SQL (and I speak in general terms here, not just of SQLite) provides
way more than syntactic sugar over b-trees. The syntactic sugar over
b-trees part is the *least* of the many advant
On 6/14/2015 3:00 PM, Simon Slavin wrote:
> The result is that that higher level the language you write in, the better.
I disagree. The use of languages higher than C result in slow
bloated code. A language that calls a language that calls a
language. Simple programs become multi-megabyte resour
Somewhat contradictory the Mozilla Foundation being a member of the SQLite
Consortium while their performance wiki prominently features a warning to
developers against using SQLite allegedly for performance reasons. Guard me
from my friends...
http://wiki.mozilla.org/Performance/Avoid_SQLite_In
On Sun, 14 Jun 2015, Richard Hipp wrote:
> SQL (and I speak in general terms here, not just of SQLite) provides way
> more than syntactic sugar over b-trees. The syntactic sugar over b-trees
> part is the *least* of the many advantages of SQL. Other more important
> features include:
Very well
Most of that looks to be more like common sense things rather than SQLite
specific, so why they're calling out SQLite, I've no idea. Also, this doc
was last modified more than a year ago. Stuff has changed both within FF
as well as SQlite since then.
I've just deleted the blog I was going to wri
Jean Chevalier wrote:
> Somewhat contradictory the Mozilla Foundation being a member of the
> SQLite Consortium while their performance wiki prominently features a
> warning to developers against using SQLite allegedly for performance
> reasons. Guard me from my friends...
>
> http://wiki.mozilla.o
For various reasons I've ended up as the SQLite rep w/in Chromium, and
I bookmarked that page awhile back to periodically revisit. People
often seem to believe that SQLite magically solves tons of problems
with their persistence layer, without realizing that many of their
assumptions are based on
On Jun 14, 2015 9:43 AM, "Stephen Chrzanowski" wrote:
>
> Most of that looks to be more like common sense things rather than SQLite
> specific, so why they're calling out SQLite, I've no idea. Also, this doc
> was last modified more than a year ago. Stuff has changed both within FF
> as well as
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