Fwd: analemmatic sundial plan generator

[David Andersson]

-- Forwarded message --
From: *David Andersson* 
Date: Tuesday, May 2, 2023
Subject: Re: analemmatic sundial plan generator
To: Donald Christensen 


Hi there, Donald

If you are looking for diagram-style plans (with overlaid measurements),
as opposed to just spreadsheet-type calculations - then point your
internet Browser (NOT "Google"), to the URL located at address
analemmatic.sourceforge.net/cgi-bin/sundial.pl

It creates PDF pages, and allows for longitudinal correction, to give the
correct clock time - not just basic 'sundial' time.

As an alternative, try the website at www.suncanisat.com/english.html

Hope this helps - let me know how you get on with the above.

Regards,

Dave Andersson



On Monday, May 1, 2023, Donald Christensen 
wrote:

> I’m looking for a program to calculate an analemmatic sundial. Can anybody
> help?
>
> Cheers
> Donald Christensen
> 0467 332 227
>
> If you focus on what you lack, you'll lose what you have. If you focus on
> what you have, you gain what you lack.
>
---
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Re: analemmatic sundial

[ro...@torrenti.net]

Hi Donald,

You may want to consider CADSOL online, an online software (no need to download 
anything) developed by Jean-Luc Astre (instructions in English and free of use).
https://cadsol.web-pages.fr/CadsolOnLine/sources/colmod2023-04-25.html

It can be referred to for different types of sundials, including analemmatic 
ones.

Kind regards
Roger


De : sundial  de la part de Kurt Niel 

Date : lundi, 1 mai 2023 à 08:00
À : Donald Christensen 
Cc : Sundial mailing list 
Objet : Re: analemmatic sundial
Hi Donald,

www.helson.at<http://www.helson.at>

A very supportive SW with a lot of different types of sundials!

Kurt

Donald Christensen 
mailto:dchristensen...@gmail.com>> schrieb am Mo., 
1. Mai 2023, 07:44:

I’m looking for a program to calculate an analemmatic sundial. Can anybody help?

Cheers
Donald Christensen
0467 332 227

If you focus on what you lack, you'll lose what you have. If you focus on what 
you have, you gain what you lack.
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Re: analemmatic sundial

[keith . christian]

What happened to your "Sundials for Learning" business (a few years 
back) - when you were offering plans for Analemmatic Sundials to schools 
?


It seems to me, that you already had the appropriate software.

Keith Christian.

On 2023-05-01 06:44, Donald Christensen wrote:

I'm looking for a program to calculate an analemmatic sundial. Can 
anybody help?


Cheers
Donald Christensen
0467 332 227

If you focus on what you lack, you'll lose what you have. If you focus 
on what you have, you gain what you lack.

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Re: analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

Thank you. I forgot to specify that it needs to be able to run on osx

On Mon, May 1, 2023 at 4:00 PM Kurt Niel  wrote:

> Hi Donald,
>
> www.helson.at
>
> A very supportive SW with a lot of different types of sundials!
>
> Kurt
>
> Donald Christensen  schrieb am Mo., 1. Mai
> 2023, 07:44:
>
>> I’m looking for a program to calculate an analemmatic sundial. Can
>> anybody help?
>>
>> Cheers
>> Donald Christensen
>> 0467 332 227
>>
>> If you focus on what you lack, you'll lose what you have. If you focus on
>> what you have, you gain what you lack.
>> ---
>> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>>
>>
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Re: analemmatic sundial

[Kurt Niel]

Hi Donald,

www.helson.at

A very supportive SW with a lot of different types of sundials!

Kurt

Donald Christensen  schrieb am Mo., 1. Mai 2023,
07:44:

> I’m looking for a program to calculate an analemmatic sundial. Can anybody
> help?
>
> Cheers
> Donald Christensen
> 0467 332 227
>
> If you focus on what you lack, you'll lose what you have. If you focus on
> what you have, you gain what you lack.
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
>
>
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analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

I’m looking for a program to calculate an analemmatic sundial. Can anybody
help?

Cheers
Donald Christensen
0467 332 227

If you focus on what you lack, you'll lose what you have. If you focus on
what you have, you gain what you lack.
---
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Re: Analemmatic sundial RE: sundial Digest, Vol 186, Issue 6

[Rosaleen Robertson]

Hope this is helpful also
See #1 http://sundials.co/~sydney.htm

See #5 http://sundials.co/~wellington.htm


Rosaleen http://www.sundials.co.nz/

-Original Message-
From: sundial  On Behalf Of
sundial-requ...@uni-koeln.de
Sent: Tuesday, 27 July 2021 2:46 am
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: sundial Digest, Vol 186, Issue 6

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Today's Topics:

   1. Re: Analemmatic sundial (Mike Shaw)


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Message: 1
Date: Mon, 26 Jul 2021 15:45:36 +0100
From: Mike Shaw 
To: Sundial List 
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial
Message-ID: 
Content-Type: text/plain; charset="utf-8"

I?ve just been down and taken a better picture of the Port Sunlight
analemmatic.

Mike Shaw

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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Mike Shaw via sundial]

Diese Nachricht wurde eingewickelt um DMARC-kompatibel zu sein. Die
eigentliche Nachricht steht dadurch in einem Anhang.

This message was wrapped to be DMARC compliant. The actual message
text is therefore in an attachment.--- Begin Message ---
I’ve just been down and taken a better picture of the Port Sunlight analemmatic.

Mike Shaw

--- End Message ---
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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

http://www.wijzerweb.be/hasselt010A.html

Willy Leenders
Hasselt Flanders Belgium

> Op 26 jul. 2021, om 10:59 heeft David Andersson  
> het volgende geschreven:
> 
> In message 
> 
>  Donald Christensen  wrote:
> 
>> I want to offer to design a sundial to be entered in the flower
>> festival. The trouble is, I need examples of sundials in BEAUTIFUL
>> gardens. Most analemmatic garden sundials are in a plain looking
>> garden. Please send me human sundial photos in gardens. The more
>> beautiful the garden the better.
>> 
> 
> Hi Donald,
> 
> I do not think my garden is particularly 'beautiful', but this is
> the best picture I have - of my location in Clearwater, Florida.
> 
> I hope some other people might have better photographs, for you.
> 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Dave Andersson.
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
> 


Willy Leenders






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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[David Andersson]

In message 
  Donald Christensen  wrote:

> I want to offer to design a sundial to be entered in the flower
> festival. The trouble is, I need examples of sundials in BEAUTIFUL
> gardens. Most analemmatic garden sundials are in a plain looking
> garden. Please send me human sundial photos in gardens. The more
> beautiful the garden the better.
>  

Hi Donald,

I do not think my garden is particularly 'beautiful', but this is
the best picture I have - of my location in Clearwater, Florida.

I hope some other people might have better photographs, for you.


Regards,

Dave Andersson.


-- 

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Analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

I want to design a garden with an analemmatic sundial for the
Toowoomba flower festival. This is a yearly competition in Australia
where residents open their gardens to the public. The flower festival
is how it sounds. There are many flowers. These gardens are not the
usual gardens. They're more of a flower display. The more flowery the
more likely they'll win the competition.


I want to offer to design a sundial to be entered in the flower
festival. The trouble is, I need examples of sundials in BEAUTIFUL
gardens. Most analemmatic garden sundials are in a plain looking
garden. Please send me human sundial photos in gardens. The more
beautiful the garden the better.



Cheers
Donald Christensen
0467 332 227

If you focus on results, you will never change. If you focus on
change, you will get results.
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Re: Strange analemmatic sundial - how does it work?

[Steve Lelievre]

Thank you to Joel, Fabio, and Bill.

Before I sent off my inquiry last night, I had got as far as deciding 
the dial must be some kind of Foster-Lambert similar to the Herstmonceux 
dial that Fabio mentioned, but I was still confused. I'm relieve to 
learn that it's not related to an analemmatic dial at all, and Wikipedia 
is simply wrong!


Steve


On 2019-05-31 5:14 a.m., Bill Gottesman wrote:

Hello Steve, I'll take a guess at this.
I think the dial is really a heliochronometer with an analemma, not an 
analemmatic dial.  I think the screws up top held a focusing lens or a 
pinhole aperture that projected a beam on to an analemma on to the 
lower plate.  The analemma is not visible in that picture.  The dial 
is turned to make the beam align, so the hours go counter-clockwise, 
and the time is read across from stationary indicator at the very top 
of the dial, hidden from view in this photo.
Similar to the upper left dial seen at 
https://equation-of-time.info/sundials-with-shaped-alidades . -Bill


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Re: Strange analemmatic sundial - how does it work?

[Bill Gottesman]

Hello Steve, I'll take a guess at this.
I think the dial is really a heliochronometer with an analemma, not an
analemmatic dial.  I think the screws up top held a focusing lens or a
pinhole aperture that projected a beam on to an analemma on to the lower
plate.  The analemma is not visible in that picture.  The dial is turned to
make the beam align, so the hours go counter-clockwise, and the time is
read across from stationary indicator at the very top of the dial, hidden
from view in this photo.
Similar to the upper left dial seen at
https://equation-of-time.info/sundials-with-shaped-alidades .  -Bill
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Re: Strange analemmatic sundial - how does it work?

[fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it]

dear Steve,

I did a search.

At first I realize that the dial has equiangle hours, so it seems to me, 
if it is analemmatic sundial it means that the dial has the inclination 
to get this condition (e.g. UK744 www.sundialatlas.net/atlas.php?sun=UK744).
This condition allows to turn the dial to adapt it to the time of 
another longitude or to correct it for eot.


Than I thought that this condition is the same for an equinoctial dial 
and may be it is not an analemmatic sundial, but an equinctial dial 
adjustable for eot, so 'analemmatic' has this meaning.
The french page of wikepedia says the same of the english one: Cadran 
analemmatiqueE. Ducretet 
<https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eug%C3%A8ne_Ducretet>& L. Lejeune 
(Paris), fin du XIX^e siècle. L'analemme montre « l'équation de la 
fonction du temps » et permet la correction de ce que l'horloge lit.


I think something is lost, without the gnomon it is difficult to 
understand it.


I found a book on internet, Catalogue des instruments de précision, 
Lejuene, Ducretet (the two authors of the sundial and of others 
scientific instruments),  I found the book on sale on internet but also 
the possibility to consult it online 
(https://archive.org/details/cataloguedesins00parigoog). There is a 
section starting at page 222, Cosmographie, where there are:


n. 1898 Chronomètre solaire de Fléchet fig 500
n. 1809 Méridien universel sur pied fig 501

Unfortunately this figures are not present (not scanned)
So I search for 'Chronomètre solaire de Fléchet' and I found some pages like
http://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/collections/imu-search-page/record-details/?thumbnails=on=2258=34749

http://www.tessier-sarrou.com/html/fiche.jsp?id=5754802=3=fr=20=2=1=

https://www.mhs.ox.ac.uk/collections/imu-search-page/record-details/?TitInventoryNo=42286=field==2257

and others. They are heliocronometers, that is equinoctial dial, with 
turnable dial and with a tilting lens to get the Sun beam on the analemma.


I think this misunderstanding of the definition on Wiki depends on the 
double meaning of 'analemmatic':

- with the analemma of eot
or
- azimuthal sundial with the gnomon adjustable for the declination of 
the Sun.


ciao Fabio



Il 31/05/2019 07:30, Steve Lelievre ha scritto:

Hello everyone,

The English language Wikipedia page on analemmatic sundials has a 
photo of a strange example at the National Polytechnic Museum, Sofia. 
See https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analemmatic_sundial and scroll down 
to the last photo.


It's completely unlike any other analemmatic dial that I know of, so 
I'm struggling to understand it. Which part is the gnomon? Which part 
moves?  Why do the hours run counterclockwise (Sofia is northern 
hemisphere so presumably it was made for use there)?  Why is there a 
brace apparently welded to the dial face in front of the XII position? 
What angle is the dial face at?


So many questions!

In short, how does it work ... can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks,

Steve




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--
Fabio Savian
fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
www.nonvedolora.eu
Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy
45° 34' 9'' N, 9° 9' 54'' E, UTC +1 (DST +2)

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Strange analemmatic sundial - how does it work?

[Steve Lelievre]

Hello everyone,

The English language Wikipedia page on analemmatic sundials has a photo 
of a strange example at the National Polytechnic Museum, Sofia. See 
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Analemmatic_sundial and scroll down to the 
last photo.


It's completely unlike any other analemmatic dial that I know of, so I'm 
struggling to understand it. Which part is the gnomon? Which part 
moves?  Why do the hours run counterclockwise (Sofia is northern 
hemisphere so presumably it was made for use there)?  Why is there a 
brace apparently welded to the dial face in front of the XII position? 
What angle is the dial face at?


So many questions!

In short, how does it work ... can anyone enlighten me?

Thanks,

Steve




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Re: Analemmatic Sundial Question

[Willy Leenders]

Axel,

I agree totally with the comments of Frans Maes.

I would add this comment:

The detailed scale of dates with an interval of five days gives the impression 
that the position of the gnomon for a given day is accurately determined.
However, the location of the gnomon depends on the declination of the sun.
The corresponding date at a certain value of the declination varies from year 
to year.

For example:
At the autumnal equinox, the gnomon must be placed exactly in the center of the 
ellipse.
Depending on the year, it is September 23nd or September 22nd.
The corresponding deviation in the time which is indicated in the neighbourhood 
of 6 o'clock  thereby is a few minutes.

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be






Op 14-okt-2015, om 17:55 heeft axel törnvall gonzalez het volgende geschreven:

> Hi All;
> 
>  Maybe some of you can help me, I calculated and designed an analemmatic 
> sundial with hour lines every 5 minutes, and dates every 5 days in the date 
> Line.
> 
>  I printed on a sheet of 420x297 mm (A3)
> 
> The gnomon I use is ¼ " diameter as shown in the photo. (Photo 1)
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> Photo 2 a better look what I see
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> The question is, can separate lines at Noon (12:00) as shown in Photo 3, here 
> I separate the Hour Lines the wide of the Gnomon, and you can see the shadow, 
>  date 21 of October, Do I get better readings?
>
>If the separate sundial works when I read the Solar Hour between 06:00 and 
> noon, I read the west side (edge) of the shade,  in this case 11:00 in Photo 4
>
> Or I have to read it in the central part of the shadow? 
> 
> Hope you understand my English, it's not my first language
> 
>  
> My best regards
> 
> 
> 
> Axel
> 
> from Putaendo, Chile
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> 
> ---
> https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
> 

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Can I share Universal Analemmatic Sundial image?

[Michael Ossipoff]

I know that often one shouldn’t share an organization’s printed materials.
Is it alright to send, to individuals, a copy of one of NASS’s PowerPoint
files with the image of the Universal Analemmatic sun compass?


Taking the question a step farther, it it alright to post it at a forum
discussion of methods for solar direction-finding?


That’s an ingenious device, and I was surprised to find out that it was
first introduced no later than 1660.


The “N” at the noon direction puzzled me at first, until I realized that it
was the direction of a shadow at noon, not the sun.


That sun-compass is a particularly useful, convenient and versatile one,
because it can be used even when it isn’t in the sunlight. If you’re in a
car or train, and shadows of telephone poles are visible outside your
window,  then the device can give north, by showing the angle between north
and a shadow’s direction.


Thanks to NASS and to Fred Sawyer for those images of the Universal
Analemmatic sun-compass.


Michael Ossipoff

26N, 80W
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Re: Can I share Universal Analemmatic Sundial image?

[Michael Ossipoff]

Roger and Patrick:

(addressed separately below)

Roger--

Thanks for the answer. I wanted to find out what NASS permits. It permits,
in the case of the Universal Analemmatic sun-compass image, sending 1 copy
to any of 1 or more individuals, but it doesn't permit posting an image to
forums.

That's what I wanted to find out.

In a week or a few weeks, I'll ask, here, if it's permissible to post, to a
forum, a link to a NASS webpage that has an image of the Universal
Analemmatic sun-compass...and, if so, what URL to link to.

I won't ask that question today, because I've already asked a question and
gotten an answer today.

Michael Ossipoff



Patrick--

Thanks for the reply.

You wrote:

Far better to contact the author, (or here NASS) to get permission for what
you want to do

[endquote]

Yes, and that's what my posting was doing

Though I didn't write directly to official NASS e-mail addresses, I knew
that NASS's representatives could be reached at this forum.

Michael Ossipoff
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Re: Can I share Universal Analemmatic Sundial image?

[Roger Bailey]

Hello Michael,

The general permitted use allowed in copyright laws is one copy can be made for 
any individual. This allows libraries to function. Posting to a forum requires 
specific permission and attribution. It is better to post a link to the 
original source.

Regards,
Roger Bailey
NASS Secretary


From: Michael Ossipoff 
Sent: Thursday, July 02, 2015 7:40 AM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
Subject: Can I share Universal Analemmatic Sundial image?


I know that often one shouldn’t share an organization’s printed materials. Is 
it alright to send, to individuals, a copy of one of NASS’s PowerPoint files 
with the image of the Universal Analemmatic sun compass? 





Taking the question a step farther, it it alright to post it at a forum 
discussion of methods for solar direction-finding?




That’s an ingenious device, and I was surprised to find out that it was first 
introduced no later than 1660.




The “N” at the noon direction puzzled me at first, until I realized that it was 
the direction of a shadow at noon, not the sun.




That sun-compass is a particularly useful, convenient and versatile one, 
because it can be used even when it isn’t in the sunlight. If you’re in a car 
or train, and shadows of telephone poles are visible outside your window,  then 
the device can give north, by showing the angle between north and a shadow’s 
direction.




Thanks to NASS and to Fred Sawyer for those images of the Universal Analemmatic 
sun-compass.




Michael Ossipoff

26N, 80W








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Re: Can I share Universal Analemmatic Sundial image?

[Donald Christensen]

You can have my movies if they would be any help

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oNMxIbrVCVw

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eSPX5sjVYBc


Cheers
Donald Christensen
0423 102 090
www.sundialsforlearning.com


This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized
use of this email is subject to penalty of law.
So there!



On Fri, Jul 3, 2015 at 6:37 AM, Michael Ossipoff email9648...@gmail.com
wrote:


 Roger and Patrick:

 (addressed separately below)

 Roger--

 Thanks for the answer. I wanted to find out what NASS permits. It permits,
 in the case of the Universal Analemmatic sun-compass image, sending 1 copy
 to any of 1 or more individuals, but it doesn't permit posting an image to
 forums.

 That's what I wanted to find out.

 In a week or a few weeks, I'll ask, here, if it's permissible to post, to
 a forum, a link to a NASS webpage that has an image of the Universal
 Analemmatic sun-compass...and, if so, what URL to link to.

 I won't ask that question today, because I've already asked a question and
 gotten an answer today.

 Michael Ossipoff



 Patrick--

 Thanks for the reply.

 You wrote:

 Far better to contact the author, (or here NASS) to get permission for
 what you want to do

 [endquote]

 Yes, and that's what my posting was doing

 Though I didn't write directly to official NASS e-mail addresses, I knew
 that NASS's representatives could be reached at this forum.

 Michael Ossipoff




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Analemmatic sundial question

[Dan Uza]

Hello,

From your experience, what is the best analemmatic sundial size to be set
up at a children playground? I was thinking about a width of 5.4 meters,
the base consisting of a row of 4 concrete pavement tiles (40x40 cm) and 12
other smaller tiles for the hours. Should their surface be more smooth or
more rugged? Also, can you please share some tips and tricks on how to mark
the months and hours? I was thinking about applying acrylic paint thorough
some PVC homemade stencils, but am not sure whether it will withstand
traffic. Do I need primer or lacquer? In any case, something cheap would be
great :)

Your insight is always appreciated.

Dan Uza
Romania
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Re: Analemmatic sundial question

[Martina Addiscott]

In message cacouayo4odgi_fukz0hecuubcgp07g37dexizfhkhjnmrgz...@mail.gmail.com
  Dan Uza cerculdest...@gmail.com wrote:

 Hello,
 
 From your experience, what is the best analemmatic sundial size to be set
 up at a children playground? I was thinking about a width of 5.4 meters,
 the base consisting of a row of 4 concrete pavement tiles (40x40 cm) and 12
 other smaller tiles for the hours. Should their surface be more smooth or
 more rugged? Also, can you please share some tips and tricks on how to mark
 the months and hours? I was thinking about applying acrylic paint thorough
 some PVC homemade stencils, but am not sure whether it will withstand
 traffic. Do I need primer or lacquer? In any case, something cheap would be
 great :)
 
 Your insight is always appreciated.
 
 Dan Uza
 Romania



Hi, Dan

As you are located in Romania, I suggest you get in touch with the
people at www.suncanisat.com - who specialise in the Analemmatic
type of 'Human Sundial', and are not far away from you in Croatia.

There are a lot of 'painted' (and other) layouts on their website,
though you might also want to think about more permanent 'mosaic'.

Sincerely,

Martina Addiscott.


-- 
---
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Re: Analemmatic sundial question

[Willy Leenders]

Dan,

A good site for answers on your questions is: 
http://www.fransmaes.nl/zonnewijzers/welcome-e.htm -- analemmatic -- the 
human scale

The website in Croatia recommended by Martina Addiscott is giving false 
indications
- the sundials provide a correction for the official time while a sundial  
indicates preferably the solar time
- on the pictures and movies the children go stand on the month and not on the 
center line at the height of the date

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







Op 1-jul-2015, om 21:03 heeft Martina Addiscott het volgende geschreven:

 In message 
 cacouayo4odgi_fukz0hecuubcgp07g37dexizfhkhjnmrgz...@mail.gmail.com
  Dan Uza cerculdest...@gmail.com wrote:
 
 Hello,
 
 From your experience, what is the best analemmatic sundial size to be set
 up at a children playground? I was thinking about a width of 5.4 meters,
 the base consisting of a row of 4 concrete pavement tiles (40x40 cm) and 12
 other smaller tiles for the hours. Should their surface be more smooth or
 more rugged? Also, can you please share some tips and tricks on how to mark
 the months and hours? I was thinking about applying acrylic paint thorough
 some PVC homemade stencils, but am not sure whether it will withstand
 traffic. Do I need primer or lacquer? In any case, something cheap would be
 great :)
 
 Your insight is always appreciated.
 
 Dan Uza
 Romania
 
 
 
 Hi, Dan
 
 As you are located in Romania, I suggest you get in touch with the
 people at www.suncanisat.com - who specialise in the Analemmatic
 type of 'Human Sundial', and are not far away from you in Croatia.
 
 There are a lot of 'painted' (and other) layouts on their website,
 though you might also want to think about more permanent 'mosaic'.
 
 Sincerely,
 
 Martina Addiscott.
 
 
 -- 
 ---
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Analemmatic sundial

[Reinhold Kriegler]

Title: Analemmatic sundial


Dear Dan,
perhaps you can find the one or other hint from my analemmatic sundial, which I have built with children in 1996?
See also the "surrounding" programms...
http://www.ta-dip.de/sonnenuhren/meine-sonnenuhren/analemmatische-sonnenuhr.html 

And do not miss the best film about an analemmatic sundial from Russia ...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9yVU5LFgqO0 

Reinhold Kriegler

Hello,

From your experience, what is the best analemmatic sundial size to be set up at a children playground? I was thinking about a width of 5.4 meters, the base consisting of a row of 4 concrete pavement tiles (40x40 cm) and 12 other smaller tiles for the hours. Should their surface be more smooth or more rugged? Also, can you please share some tips and tricks on how to mark the months and hours? I was thinking about applying acrylic paint thorough some PVC homemade stencils, but am not sure whether it will withstand traffic. Do I need primer or lacquer? In any case, something cheap would be great :)

Your insight is always appreciated. 

Dan Uza
Romania


* ** ***  * ** ***
Reinhold R. Kriegler
Lat. 51,8390 N. Long. 12,25512 E. GMT +1 (DST +2) www.ta-dip.de
http://www.ta-dip.de/dies-und-das/r-e-i-n-h-o-l-d.html 
http://www.ta-dip.de/salon-der-astronomen/musik-im-salon-der-astronomen.html
 ber eine Million Besucher auf www.ta-dip.de !

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sloping analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

I have developed an Analemmatic sundial on a slope. In the photo, the dial
slopes both north/south and east/west.


 I've tested the accuracy against a clock. It works. Now I want to make a
large one. I'm offering to make a sloping sundial of human involvement.
I'll do this free of charge. If you want one or know of someone that would
be interest, please contact me.



http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/sundials%20for%20learning/media/b99413f6-82a1-499f-9f7d-9e7c0c5a63d6/DSCF2538.JPG

Cheers
Donald Christensen
0423 102 090
www.sundialsforlearning.com
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Re: A big new analemmatic sundial on Malta

[Sunclocks North America]

Hi everyone,
  I mostly agree with Roger that size doesn't matter, but only in general terms 
when talking about human sundials.  I feel that overly large analemmatic 
sundials are not really suitable to be effective Human Sundials, human sized 
gnomon's simply being too small to reach the hour markers.  Conversely, if the 
sundial is too small, then a human sized shadow will tend to overwhelm the hour 
markers.  However, I am nevertheless not surprised by the popularity of the 
Penticton sundial because the interactive aspect of Human Sundials generally 
tend to make them very popular wherever they may be.

  In addition, analemmatic sundials have the added problem of shadows being too 
long in the winter and too short in the summer, which is why I like the 
distinctive design of SunClock style Human Sundials which is designed with 
two rings of hour markers - one for the shorter shadows of 'summer' time, and 
the other for the longer shadows of 'winter' time.  In addition to the added 
accuracy that this brings, along with being adjusted for clock time as opposed 
to sun time, I am personally of the opinion that this double ring design is 
actually more aesthetically pleasing than a regular single ring design.  If 
you're interested in knowing more about SunClock Human Sundials, you can 
learn more by visiting http://www.sunclocks.com.

Thanks,
Paul Ratto
SunClocks North America
438-792-4823

On 2013-06-18, at 23:19, Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net wrote:

 Hello Paul and all,
  
 Size doesn't matter. It is how you use your tool that is important. The 
 shadows from people as gnomons are only so long. What is the use of an 
 instrument when the indicator does not reach the scale? My NASS presentation 
 How Long is My Shadow discusses this issue and offers a spreadsheet to 
 calculate shadow lengths. See presentation 
 http://www.walkingshadow.info/Publications/How%20Long.pdf The logic is now 
 better expressed in Helmut Sonderegger's Alemma program. See 
 http://www.helson.at/sun.htm Typically 5 m is a good size for an analemmatic 
 sundial with a human gnomon.
  
 There is a larger analemmatic sundial In Penticton British Columbia, Canada. 
 Here is a link to the NASS registry..
 http://sundials.org/index.php/component/sundials/onedial/240
 This Penticton dial is 10.7 m x 19.8 m. It is a BIG sundial and can be seen 
 with Google Earth at 49°27.189' N, 119°34.972' W. Although it was built in 
 1984 by a well known sculptor with design advice from a professional 
 astronomer, it is a poor design for many reasons. It is too big. The shadows 
 fall well short of the hour posts. The large posts marking the solstices and 
 equinox are displaced from the date line. It has an analemma shape marked 
 with the dates to correct for the equation of time. This correction is 
 popular but it does not work except at noon. The original sundial was made of 
 wood and quickly rotted away on this exposed sandy beach. The current model 
 using concrete may last longer. However it is an attractive popular feature 
 on the beach in Penticton. Hopefully some using the dial will have the 
 curiosity of a three year old and ask Why and remain curious after the 
 typical adult response, Because, that is the way it is.
  
 Sundials taught me to ask Why and seek answers beyond Because.
  
 Regards,
 Roger Bailey
 Walking Shadow Designs
  
 
 
 From: Sunclocks North America
 Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:26 PM
 To: Sundial Mailing List
 Subject: Re: A big new analemmatic sundial on Malta
 
 Hello All,
   Congratulations to Mr. David Grima and to Stella Maris College for their 
 accomplishment in building a beautiful Human Sundial, which is very nice and 
 constructed with great looking materials and decorations.
   I would like to point out, however, that it is not the world's largest 
 sundial, as the timesofmalta.com article has indicated, although it may be 
 the worlds largest sundial 'made out of volcanic stone', as Mr. Grima was 
 careful to point out in the video.
   There is at least one Human Sundial that I know of, located at 'Chatsworth 
 House' in the UK that has a diameter of eight meters, or one meter larger 
 than the Malta sundial.  In addition, the Chatsworth House Human Sundial is 
 of a SunClock style that is corrected to indicate clock time instead of Sun 
 Time, and which is also set-up to automatically adjust for Daylight Saving 
 Time.
 Thank you,
 Paul Ratto
 SunClocks North America
 438-792-4823
 
 On 2013-06-12, at 9:46 AM, Perit Alexei Pace a...@onvol.net wrote:
 
 Hello Jim,
 Thank you for your email,
 It was great working on this project (I made the calculations and concept 
 design), which will hopefully help many students appreciate the beauty of 
 science and art.
 Best regards,
 Alexei
 Malta
 
 On 12 June 2013 14:23, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote:
 Hello All,
 
  
 
 Here is an interesting link to a video/story about a new analemmatic 
 sundial installation on Malta – it seems

Re: A big new analemmatic sundial on Malta

[Sunclocks North America]

Hello All,
  Congratulations to Mr. David Grima and to Stella Maris College for their 
accomplishment in building a beautiful Human Sundial, which is very nice and 
constructed with great looking materials and decorations.
  I would like to point out, however, that it is not the world's largest 
sundial, as the timesofmalta.com article has indicated, although it may be the 
worlds largest sundial 'made out of volcanic stone', as Mr. Grima was careful 
to point out in the video.
  There is at least one Human Sundial that I know of, located at 'Chatsworth 
House' in the UK that has a diameter of eight meters, or one meter larger than 
the Malta sundial.  In addition, the Chatsworth House Human Sundial is of a 
SunClock style that is corrected to indicate clock time instead of Sun Time, 
and which is also set-up to automatically adjust for Daylight Saving Time.
Thank you,
Paul Ratto
SunClocks North America
438-792-4823

On 2013-06-12, at 9:46 AM, Perit Alexei Pace a...@onvol.net wrote:

 Hello Jim,
 Thank you for your email,
 It was great working on this project (I made the calculations and concept 
 design), which will hopefully help many students appreciate the beauty of 
 science and art.
 Best regards,
 Alexei
 Malta
 
 On 12 June 2013 14:23, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote:
 Hello All,
 
  
 
 Here is an interesting link to a video/story about a new analemmatic sundial 
 installation on Malta – it seems that the dial type continues to spread, 
 especially at schools, and this is a really nice one!
 
  
 
 http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20130611/local/School-awaits-sundial-that-will-last-a-century.473347
 
  
 
  
 
 Best,
 
  
 
 Jim Tallman
 
 www.spectrasundial.com
 
 www.artisanindustrials.com
 
 jtall...@artisanindustrials.com
 
 513-253-5497
 
  
 
 
 ---
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
 
 
 
---
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Re: A big new analemmatic sundial on Malta

[Roger Bailey]

Hello Paul and all,

Size doesn't matter. It is how you use your tool that is important. The shadows 
from people as gnomons are only so long. What is the use of an instrument when 
the indicator does not reach the scale? My NASS presentation How Long is My 
Shadow discusses this issue and offers a spreadsheet to calculate shadow 
lengths. See presentation 
http://www.walkingshadow.info/Publications/How%20Long.pdf The logic is now 
better expressed in Helmut Sonderegger's Alemma program. See 
http://www.helson.at/sun.htm Typically 5 m is a good size for an analemmatic 
sundial with a human gnomon.

There is a larger analemmatic sundial In Penticton British Columbia, Canada. 
Here is a link to the NASS registry..
http://sundials.org/index.php/component/sundials/onedial/240
This Penticton dial is 10.7 m x 19.8 m. It is a BIG sundial and can be seen 
with Google Earth at 49°27.189' N, 119°34.972' W. Although it was built in 1984 
by a well known sculptor with design advice from a professional astronomer, it 
is a poor design for many reasons. It is too big. The shadows fall well short 
of the hour posts. The large posts marking the solstices and equinox are 
displaced from the date line. It has an analemma shape marked with the dates to 
correct for the equation of time. This correction is popular but it does not 
work except at noon. The original sundial was made of wood and quickly rotted 
away on this exposed sandy beach. The current model using concrete may last 
longer. However it is an attractive popular feature on the beach in Penticton. 
Hopefully some using the dial will have the curiosity of a three year old and 
ask Why and remain curious after the typical adult response, Because, that 
is the way it is.

Sundials taught me to ask Why and seek answers beyond Because.

Regards,
Roger Bailey
Walking Shadow Designs





From: Sunclocks North America
Sent: Tuesday, June 18, 2013 6:26 PM
To: Sundial Mailing List
Subject: Re: A big new analemmatic sundial on Malta


Hello All,
  Congratulations to Mr. David Grima and to Stella Maris College for their 
accomplishment in building a beautiful Human Sundial, which is very nice and 
constructed with great looking materials and decorations.
  I would like to point out, however, that it is not the world's largest 
sundial, as the timesofmalta.com article has indicated, although it may be the 
worlds largest sundial 'made out of volcanic stone', as Mr. Grima was careful 
to point out in the video.
  There is at least one Human Sundial that I know of, located at 'Chatsworth 
House' in the UK that has a diameter of eight meters, or one meter larger than 
the Malta sundial.  In addition, the Chatsworth House Human Sundial is of a 
SunClock style that is corrected to indicate clock time instead of Sun Time, 
and which is also set-up to automatically adjust for Daylight Saving Time.
Thank you,
Paul Ratto
SunClocks North America
438-792-4823

On 2013-06-12, at 9:46 AM, Perit Alexei Pace a...@onvol.net wrote:


  Hello Jim,
  Thank you for your email,

  It was great working on this project (I made the calculations and concept 
design), which will hopefully help many students appreciate the beauty of 
science and art.
  Best regards,
  Alexei
  Malta


  On 12 June 2013 14:23, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote:

Hello All,



Here is an interesting link to a video/story about a new analemmatic 
sundial installation on Malta – it seems that the dial type continues to 
spread, especially at schools, and this is a really nice one!




http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20130611/local/School-awaits-sundial-that-will-last-a-century.473347





Best,



Jim Tallman

www.spectrasundial.com

www.artisanindustrials.com

jtall...@artisanindustrials.com

513-253-5497




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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6422 - Release Date: 06/18/13



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Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.3345 / Virus Database: 3199/6422 - Release Date: 06/18/13
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Re: A big new analemmatic sundial on Malta

[Perit Alexei Pace]

Hello Jim,
Thank you for your email,
It was great working on this project (I made the calculations and concept
design), which will hopefully help many students appreciate the beauty of
science and art.
Best regards,
Alexei
Malta

On 12 June 2013 14:23, J. Tallman jtall...@artisanindustrials.com wrote:

 Hello All,

 ** **

 Here is an interesting link to a video/story about a new analemmatic
 sundial installation on Malta – it seems that the dial type continues to
 spread, especially at schools, and this is a really nice one!

 ** **

 http://www.timesofmalta.com/articles/view/20130611
 /local/School-awaits-sundial-that-will-last-a-century.473347

 ** **

 ** **

 Best,

 ** **

 Jim Tallman

 www.spectrasundial.com

 www.artisanindustrials.com

 jtall...@artisanindustrials.com

 513-253-5497

 ** **

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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

Joel

I have combined the two animations and made them into one. Feel free to
copy it for your site instead of having the two separate ones.

Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090
www.sundialsforlearning.com






On Mon, Jan 14, 2013 at 4:44 AM, Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net wrote:

 --**
 From: rPauli rpa...@speakeasy.org
 Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:00 AM
 To: Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net
 Cc: h.sondereg...@utanet.at; sundial@uni-koeln.de
 Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial


 Isn't there an optimal sundial design for equator regions?


 Hi Richard and all,

 The Greeks solved this with the hemispherium and scafe dials. The
 hemispherium is a spherical bowl with a point gnomon. The celestial sphere
 of the sky above is projected through the point onto hour and declination
 lines marked in the bowl.  The curved bowl provides uniform scaling.
 A point gnomon above a horizontal  or polar plane works as well but when
 the sun is low the shadow race off on a tangent. The scafe is a section of
 the hemisphere, the relevant section based on the suns declination.  Fer De
 Vries has  on his website design information for a hemisherium.
 Copy and paste this url:  
 http://www.dse.nl/~**zonnewijzer/hemisph.htmhttp://www.dse.nl/~zonnewijzer/hemisph.htm

 Even a horizontal sundial with a polar gnomon works in the tropics.
 Generally just a section of the polar gnomon is used and this is raised and
 supported above the plane.

 Regards, Roger Bailey
 --**-
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/**mailman/listinfo/sundialhttps://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial


---
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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[rPauli]

For a tropical dial, one could cast the gnomon onto a positive or 
negative parabola - like a satellite dish - or any unique shape, in 
order to extend the shadow image. Isn't there an optimal sundial design 
for equator regions?One could construct a complex shape that would 
be illuminated by light and shade from a specific vector.   Certainly 
marked clock face could be sundial design -  but it also could be any 3D 
shape that is revealed by sunlight.


  I have no idea of the maths involved, nor how to do it.  But it can 
be done - maybe by a 3D printer.   And would probably be very 
interesting - as it would be tweaking the shape of the analemma such 
that it appears in the desired shape..   call it a locationally fixed 
astrolabe.  and both the gnomon and analemma can be any relation to 
shadow, surface and sun that can be mathematically define. Yes?.  If 
anyone experiments in that direction, It would be really neat to see one 
done - it could be some great technical sculpture.  infinite shapes and 
designs. This seems to be the perfect demonstration of Sundials and 3D 
printers -  someone must make these.


I didn't see much on a quick search of 3D printing and Sundialjust 
http://www.smith.edu/events/docs/collaborations/2010/presentations/CSC-147.pdf 
- seems rudimentary application of 3D modeling software (but I don't 
know) -  I imagine this could be interesting to play with. I think this 
means that one could vend a geographically precise sundial to be 
constructed at a local 3D printer.Fun.



Richard Pauli
Seattle

On 1/12/2013 8:02 PM, Roger Bailey wrote:

Hello Helmut,

Thank you, Helmut, for this graphical demonstration on the problems 
with tropical sundials on certain dates. The hours cannot be 
discriminated. The declination line and hour circle can coincide. 
Height of the gnomon and length of the shadow are of no help as 
analemmatic sundials are are two dimensional so height doesn't 
matter.  This is why I developed and distributed a spreadsheet and 
gave a presentation in 1999 on How Long is my Shadow: The Use of 
Declination Lines in the Design of Analemmatic Sundials. After that 
we successfully collaborated on improving the software and you 
developed an excellent stand alone design programs that easily 
provides information like your pdf sketch. Now all sundial designers 
can review how parameters interact. Sometimes analemmatic sundials 
don't work in the tropics.


Regards, Roger Bailey



--
From: Helmut Sonderegger (Tele2) h.sondereg...@utanet.at
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 2:32 PM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial


This as a printout with my software for an analemmatic sundial at
Northern latitude 20 deg and with shadow path of a person on Jun 1st. I
hope the attachment comes trough (52 kB).

Best regards
Hlemut

Am 12.01.2013 19:11, schrieb Roger Bailey:

Perhaps this is why there are so few analemmatic sundials in the
tropics. I do not know of any except for the one I built years ago at
20.4°, or 3° into the tropics. This dial was just markings in the sand
on a beach, as impermanent as all messages on a beach.

For similar reasons there are few vertical sundials in the tropics.
The shadows are too long from the gnomon and any overhanging eaves.
The reversal mid-day to the north side in the spring and summer is
another design complexity.

In any case it is interesting to explore, as Frank has, how latitude
changes the designs.

Regards,
Roger Bailey
from the polar side of temperate zone, N 48.6

--
From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 3:14 AM
To: Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com
Cc: vk...@optusnet.com.au; Sundial Mailing Mailing List
sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial


Dear Donald,

You wrote...


Brilliant idea Roderick!

I put both animations on my website.
Each one has a label under it stating
which hemisphere it's for...


Whoa!  Hold on a moment!

The fun has only just begun...

Have you thought what happens in the
tropics?

Someone living at 20 degrees north (well
into the northern hemisphere) will not
be impressed by your northern hemisphere
animation around the summer solstice.
This is what happens:

1.  The sun rises somewhat to the
north of due east (no surprise
so far).

2.  It heads south for a while and
therefore goes round clockwise
(still no surprise).  Then...

3.  Suddenly it reverses direction
and goes ANTI-clockwise, and it
stays running that way...

4.  ...through noon and...

5.  well into the afternoon.  Then...

6.  Suddenly it reverses direction
again and goes CLOCKwise until...

7.  Sunset.

Phew!  Quite a day, eh?

You get a hint of what's going on once
you draw out an analemmatic sundial for
20 deg. north.  You will see that the
date line is LONGER than the minor axis
of the hour-point ellipse.

There are two times

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Simon [illustratingshadows]

seems to me a polar dial would be ideal, and the thought of polar ice at the 
equator could only but help:)

Simon

Simon Wheaton-Smith

www.illustratingshadows.com

Phoenix, Arizona, W112.1 N33.5

--- On Sun, 1/13/13, Tony Moss tonylindi...@talktalk.net wrote:

From: Tony Moss tonylindi...@talktalk.net
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Date: Sunday, January 13, 2013, 8:02 AM



 Richard asked:






Isn't there an optimal sundial design 
for equator regions?






A glance at the How Sundials Work page 6 on the British Sundial Society 
website shows a dial that works in the tropics when the sun is on its most 
northerly and southerly tracks.  In effect it is a two-faced equatorial dial 
with a gnomon on each face.  At the Equator it resembles a 'wheel and axle' 
with each face working for almost six months with a shadowless pause  at the 
Equinox.  A suitably mounted armillary sphere would also serveor did I 
misunderstand the question?



Tony Moss




 






 






-Original Message-


From: rPauli rpa...@speakeasy.org


To: Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net


CC: sundial@uni-koeln.de


Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 8:01


Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial















For a tropical dial, one could cast the gnomon onto a positive or 
negative parabola - like a satellite dish - or any unique shape, in 
order to extend the shadow image. Isn't there an optimal sundial design 
for equator regions?One could construct a complex shape that would 
be illuminated by light and shade from a specific vector.   Certainly 
marked clock face could be sundial design -  but it also could be any 3D 
shape that is revealed by sunlight. 


 



  I have no idea of the maths involved, nor how to do it.  But it can 
be done - maybe by a 3D printer.   And would probably be very 
interesting - as it would be tweaking the shape of the analemma such 
that it appears in the desired shape..   call it a locationally fixed 
astrolabe.  and both the gnomon and analemma can be any relation to 
shadow, surface and sun that can be mathematically define. Yes?.  If 
anyone experiments in that direction, It would be really neat to see one 
done - it could be some great technical sculpture.  infinite shapes and 
designs. This seems to be the perfect demonstration of Sundials and 3D 
printers -  someone must make these. 


 



I didn't see much on a quick search of 3D printing and Sundialjust 
http://www.smith.edu/events/docs/collaborations/2010/presentations/CSC-147.pdf 
- seems rudimentary application of 3D modeling software (but I don't 
know) -  I imagine this could be interesting to play with. I think this 
means that one could vend a geographically precise sundial to be 
constructed at a local 3D printer.Fun. 


 




Richard Pauli 



Seattle 


 



On 1/12/2013 8:02 PM, Roger Bailey wrote: 



 Hello Helmut, 



 



 Thank you, Helmut, for this graphical demonstration on the problems 
 with tropical sundials on certain dates. The hours cannot be 
 discriminated. The declination line and hour circle can coincide. 
 Height of the gnomon and length of the shadow are of no help as 
 analemmatic sundials are are two dimensional so height doesn't 
 matter.  This is why I developed and distributed a spreadsheet and 
 gave a presentation in 1999 on How Long is my Shadow: The Use of 
 Declination Lines in the Design of Analemmatic Sundials. After that 
 we successfully collaborated on improving the software and you 
 developed an excellent stand alone design programs that easily 
 provides information like your pdf sketch. Now all sundial designers 
 can review how parameters interact. Sometimes analemmatic sundials 
 don't work in the tropics. 



 



 Regards, Roger Bailey 



 



 



 



 -- 



 From: Helmut Sonderegger (Tele2) h.sondereg...@utanet.at 



 Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 2:32 PM 



 To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 



 Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial 



 



 This as a printout with my software for an analemmatic sundial at 



 Northern latitude 20 deg and with shadow path of a person on Jun 1st. I 



 hope the attachment comes trough (52 kB). 



 



 Best regards 



 Hlemut 



 



 Am 12.01.2013 19:11, schrieb Roger Bailey: 



 Perhaps this is why there are so few analemmatic sundials in the 



 tropics. I do not know of any except for the one I built years ago at 



 20.4°, or 3° into the tropics. This dial was just markings in the sand 



 on a beach, as impermanent as all messages on a beach. 



 



 For similar reasons there are few vertical sundials in the tropics. 



 The shadows are too long from the gnomon and any overhanging eaves. 



 The reversal mid-day to the north side in the spring and summer is 



 another design complexity. 



 



 In any case it is interesting to explore, as Frank has, how latitude 



 changes the designs. 



 



 Regards, 



 Roger Bailey 



 from the polar side

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

Between the pole and the equator you can distinguish four types of polar style 
sundials: the horizontal, the vertical, the equatorial and the polar sundial.
At the equator, there are only two types, as the horizontal and the polar 
sundial are the same, and on the other hand the vertical and the equatorial 
sundial are the same.
Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be


Op 13-jan-2013, om 19:09 heeft Simon [illustratingshadows het volgende 
geschreven:

 seems to me a polar dial would be ideal, and the thought of polar ice at the 
 equator could only but help:)
 
 Simon
 
 Simon Wheaton-Smith
 www.illustratingshadows.com
 Phoenix, Arizona, W112.1 N33.5
 
 --- On Sun, 1/13/13, Tony Moss tonylindi...@talktalk.net wrote:
 
 From: Tony Moss tonylindi...@talktalk.net
 Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial
 To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
 Date: Sunday, January 13, 2013, 8:02 AM
 
 Richard asked:
 Isn't there an optimal sundial design for equator regions?
 
 A glance at the How Sundials Work page 6 on the British Sundial Society 
 website shows a dial that works in the tropics when the sun is on its most 
 northerly and southerly tracks.  In effect it is a two-faced equatorial dial 
 with a gnomon on each face.  At the Equator it resembles a 'wheel and axle' 
 with each face working for almost six months with a shadowless pause  at the 
 Equinox.  A suitably mounted armillary sphere would also serveor did I 
 misunderstand the question?
 
 Tony Moss
 
 
 -Original Message-
 From: rPauli rpa...@speakeasy.org
 To: Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net
 CC: sundial@uni-koeln.de
 Sent: Sun, 13 Jan 2013 8:01
 Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial
 
 For a tropical dial, one could cast the gnomon onto a positive or negative 
 parabola - like a satellite dish - or any unique shape, in order to extend 
 the shadow image. Isn't there an optimal sundial design for equator regions? 
 One could construct a complex shape that would be illuminated by light and 
 shade from a specific vector. Certainly marked clock face could be sundial 
 design - but it also could be any 3D shape that is revealed by sunlight. 
  
   I have no idea of the maths involved, nor how to do it. But it can be done 
 - maybe by a 3D printer. And would probably be very interesting - as it would 
 be tweaking the shape of the analemma such that it appears in the desired 
 shape.. call it a locationally fixed astrolabe. and both the gnomon and 
 analemma can be any relation to shadow, surface and sun that can be 
 mathematically define. Yes?. If anyone experiments in that direction, It 
 would be really neat to see one done - it could be some great technical 
 sculpture. infinite shapes and designs. This seems to be the perfect 
 demonstration of Sundials and 3D printers - someone must make these. 
  
 I didn't see much on a quick search of 3D printing and Sundial just 
 http://www.smith.edu/events/docs/collaborations/2010/presentations/CSC-147.pdf
  - seems rudimentary application of 3D modeling software (but I don't know) - 
 I imagine this could be interesting to play with. I think this means that one 
 could vend a geographically precise sundial to be constructed at a local 3D 
 printer. Fun. 
  
 Richard Pauli 
 Seattle 
  
 On 1/12/2013 8:02 PM, Roger Bailey wrote: 
  Hello Helmut, 
  
  Thank you, Helmut, for this graphical demonstration on the problems  with 
  tropical sundials on certain dates. The hours cannot be  discriminated. 
  The declination line and hour circle can coincide.  Height of the gnomon 
  and length of the shadow are of no help as  analemmatic sundials are are 
  two dimensional so height doesn't  matter. This is why I developed and 
  distributed a spreadsheet and  gave a presentation in 1999 on How Long is 
  my Shadow: The Use of  Declination Lines in the Design of Analemmatic 
  Sundials. After that  we successfully collaborated on improving the 
  software and you  developed an excellent stand alone design programs that 
  easily  provides information like your pdf sketch. Now all sundial 
  designers  can review how parameters interact. Sometimes analemmatic 
  sundials  don't work in the tropics. 
  
  Regards, Roger Bailey 
  
  
  
  -- 
  From: Helmut Sonderegger (Tele2) h.sondereg...@utanet.at 
  Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 2:32 PM 
  To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
  Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial 
  
  This as a printout with my software for an analemmatic sundial at 
  Northern latitude 20 deg and with shadow path of a person on Jun 1st. I 
  hope the attachment comes trough (52 kB). 
  
  Best regards 
  Hlemut 
  
  Am 12.01.2013 19:11, schrieb Roger Bailey: 
  Perhaps this is why there are so few analemmatic sundials in the 
  tropics. I do not know of any except for the one I built years ago

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Roger Bailey]

--
From: rPauli rpa...@speakeasy.org
Sent: Sunday, January 13, 2013 12:00 AM
To: Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net
Cc: h.sondereg...@utanet.at; sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial


Isn't there an optimal sundial design for equator regions?


Hi Richard and all,

The Greeks solved this with the hemispherium and scafe dials. The 
hemispherium is a spherical bowl with a point gnomon. The celestial sphere 
of the sky above is projected through the point onto hour and declination 
lines marked in the bowl.  The curved bowl provides uniform scaling.
A point gnomon above a horizontal  or polar plane works as well but when the 
sun is low the shadow race off on a tangent. The scafe is a section of the 
hemisphere, the relevant section based on the suns declination.  Fer De 
Vries has  on his website design information for a hemisherium.

Copy and paste this url:  http://www.dse.nl/~zonnewijzer/hemisph.htm

Even a horizontal sundial with a polar gnomon works in the tropics. 
Generally just a section of the polar gnomon is used and this is raised and 
supported above the plane.


Regards, Roger Bailey 


---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Fabio nonvedolora]

Hi Roderick

about ten years ago I found a website about english clockwork with an article 
about clockwise. The author explained the clockwise movement was to follow the 
shadow movement of the sundials, so the tower clocks replaced some sundials 
with the same movement.
I wrote him to point out the shadow of a sundial is clockwise, in the Northern 
Hemisphere, for an horizontal sundial but it is counterclockwise for a vertical 
dial. A tower clock hasn’t the same movement of a tower sundial, unless the 
sundial faces North but it isn’t the most representative case.
Moreover in Prague there is a famous tower clock with a counterclockwise 
movement, it is located in the Jewish Quarter.
The author of the article wrote to the Rabbi of Prague and he got and 
interesting answer:
the clocks are clockwise like writing, from left to right, the Jewish clocks 
are counterclockwise because they write from right to left.

ciao Fabio

Fabio Savian
fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy
45° 34' 10'' N, 9° 10' 9'' E, GMT+1 (DST +2)

From: R Wall ml 
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 3:24 AM
To: vk...@optusnet.com.au 
Cc: Sundial Mailing Mailing List 
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial

Hi Donald,

...

I did read somewhere where they say that the mechanical clock was invented in 
the Northern Hemisphere. Because the clock hands also move in a clockwise 
direction like the direction of the sun’s shadow in the Northern Hemisphere. 
Also interesting is that car speedos and other indicators also increase in a 
clockwise direction. Maybe someone else knows more about this?

...

Roderick Wall.

From: Donald Christensen 
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:34 AM
To: Richard B. Langley 
Cc: Sundial Mailing Mailing List 
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial

Once I moved to Australia from California, It took me about 3 years before I 
would stop make embarrassing mistakes concerning left from right. At times, I 
felt I was 6 years old again!

I lived in California for 22 years
The ocean is west
The sun sets on the ocean
We drove on the right
When we face north, our back is to the equator

In Brisbane
The ocean is east
The sun sets inland
We drive on the left
When we face north, we are also facing the equator


I also had a fun time learning about sundials. 95% (or more) of the books and 
articles are for northern hemisphere dials. I had to try to convert this data 
to southern hemisphere before I even knew how a sundial works!


I have changed the animation for the shadow to rotate the other direction. 
However, I'm still undecided of which one to use on my website and email footer

http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/424ea0f6-012b-4d4f-ac4e-beb931f04403/GIRL_SHADOW%20northern%20dial.gif
 

Cheers   
Donald
0423 102 090   
www.sundialsforlearning.com
   







On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Richard B. Langley l...@unb.ca wrote:

  Some years ago, I bought what seemed to be a nicely constructed equatorial 
sundial at a garden centre in Holland. I don't know about the display unit but 
the one in the box I bought turned out to be for the southern hemisphere when I 
got it home. Mounting the circular bow upside down made it usable although it 
necessitates crooking one's head 180 degrees to read it. ;-)

  -- Richard Langley 


  On 11-Jan-13, at 1:32 PM, Roger Bailey wrote:


Yes, there is a world of difference. I was recently in New Zealand and it 
took some time to get my head around the difference for sundials. South is 
their reference pole and the numbers do go the other way around. It is 
interesting a northern designed vertical south facing sundial is identical to a 
southern horizontal dial for the co-latitude. I found a number of good sundials 
in New Zealand but didn't find any that exploited the above advantage.

Thanks Rosaleen Robertson of the New Zealand Sundial Association 
(www.sundials.org.nz) for your assistance.

Regards, Roger Bailey
@ 48.6° north again

From: Willy Leenders
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:38 AM
To: Willy Leenders
Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial



My comment is valid only for the northern hemisphere


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)








Op 11-jan-2013, om 11:20 heeft Willy Leenders het volgende geschreven:


  Donald,

  A nice idea.

  If you want to display the progress of the shadow from morning to 
evening, the movement must be in clockwise and not the rverse as in the 
animated image.

  Willy Leenders
  Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

  Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) 
with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







  Op 11-jan-2013, om 03:32 heeft Donald Christensen het volgende geschreven:


Hi all

I just had a cartoonist work

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Frank King]

Dear Donald,

You wrote...

 Brilliant idea Roderick!

 I put both animations on my website.
 Each one has a label under it stating
 which hemisphere it's for...

Whoa!  Hold on a moment!

The fun has only just begun...

Have you thought what happens in the
tropics?

Someone living at 20 degrees north (well
into the northern hemisphere) will not
be impressed by your northern hemisphere
animation around the summer solstice.
This is what happens:

 1.  The sun rises somewhat to the
 north of due east (no surprise
 so far).

 2.  It heads south for a while and
 therefore goes round clockwise
 (still no surprise).  Then...

 3.  Suddenly it reverses direction
 and goes ANTI-clockwise, and it
 stays running that way...

 4.  ...through noon and...

 5.  well into the afternoon.  Then...

 6.  Suddenly it reverses direction
 again and goes CLOCKwise until...

 7.  Sunset.

Phew!  Quite a day, eh?

You get a hint of what's going on once
you draw out an analemmatic sundial for
20 deg. north.  You will see that the
date line is LONGER than the minor axis
of the hour-point ellipse.

There are two times of day when the line
from the summer solstice point (say) makes
a tangent to the ellipse.  These are the
times when the direction reverses.

I wonder how many readers think that
I am kidding :-))

Life can get tough when you start thinking
about special cases!

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[R Wall ml]

Hi Fabio,

Thanks for your reply, all interesting. I did a search and found the following:

 
http://www.tripadvisor.com.au/ShowUserReviews-g274707-d313665-r121247054-Jewish_Town_Hall_Zidovska_radnice-Prague_Bohemia.html

http://www.shamash.org/lists/scj-faq/HTML/faq/19-11.html

Regards,

Roderick Wall.

From: Fabio nonvedolora 
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 8:06 PM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial

Hi Roderick

about ten years ago I found a website about english clockwork with an article 
about clockwise. The author explained the clockwise movement was to follow the 
shadow movement of the sundials, so the tower clocks replaced some sundials 
with the same movement.
I wrote him to point out the shadow of a sundial is clockwise, in the Northern 
Hemisphere, for an horizontal sundial but it is counterclockwise for a vertical 
dial. A tower clock hasn’t the same movement of a tower sundial, unless the 
sundial faces North but it isn’t the most representative case.
Moreover in Prague there is a famous tower clock with a counterclockwise 
movement, it is located in the Jewish Quarter.
The author of the article wrote to the Rabbi of Prague and he got and 
interesting answer:
the clocks are clockwise like writing, from left to right, the Jewish clocks 
are counterclockwise because they write from right to left.

ciao Fabio

Fabio Savian
fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy
45° 34' 10'' N, 9° 10' 9'' E, GMT+1 (DST +2)

From: R Wall ml 
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 3:24 AM
To: vk...@optusnet.com.au 
Cc: Sundial Mailing Mailing List 
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial

Hi Donald,

...

I did read somewhere where they say that the mechanical clock was invented in 
the Northern Hemisphere. Because the clock hands also move in a clockwise 
direction like the direction of the sun’s shadow in the Northern Hemisphere. 
Also interesting is that car speedos and other indicators also increase in a 
clockwise direction. Maybe someone else knows more about this?

...

Roderick Wall.

From: Donald Christensen 
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:34 AM
To: Richard B. Langley 
Cc: Sundial Mailing Mailing List 
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial

Once I moved to Australia from California, It took me about 3 years before I 
would stop make embarrassing mistakes concerning left from right. At times, I 
felt I was 6 years old again!

I lived in California for 22 years
The ocean is west
The sun sets on the ocean
We drove on the right
When we face north, our back is to the equator

In Brisbane
The ocean is east
The sun sets inland
We drive on the left
When we face north, we are also facing the equator


I also had a fun time learning about sundials. 95% (or more) of the books and 
articles are for northern hemisphere dials. I had to try to convert this data 
to southern hemisphere before I even knew how a sundial works!


I have changed the animation for the shadow to rotate the other direction. 
However, I'm still undecided of which one to use on my website and email footer

http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/424ea0f6-012b-4d4f-ac4e-beb931f04403/GIRL_SHADOW%20northern%20dial.gif
 

Cheers   
Donald
0423 102 090   
www.sundialsforlearning.com
   







On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Richard B. Langley l...@unb.ca wrote:

  Some years ago, I bought what seemed to be a nicely constructed equatorial 
sundial at a garden centre in Holland. I don't know about the display unit but 
the one in the box I bought turned out to be for the southern hemisphere when I 
got it home. Mounting the circular bow upside down made it usable although it 
necessitates crooking one's head 180 degrees to read it. ;-)

  -- Richard Langley 


  On 11-Jan-13, at 1:32 PM, Roger Bailey wrote:


Yes, there is a world of difference. I was recently in New Zealand and it 
took some time to get my head around the difference for sundials. South is 
their reference pole and the numbers do go the other way around. It is 
interesting a northern designed vertical south facing sundial is identical to a 
southern horizontal dial for the co-latitude. I found a number of good sundials 
in New Zealand but didn't find any that exploited the above advantage.

Thanks Rosaleen Robertson of the New Zealand Sundial Association 
(www.sundials.org.nz) for your assistance.

Regards, Roger Bailey
@ 48.6° north again

From: Willy Leenders
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:38 AM
To: Willy Leenders
Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial



My comment is valid only for the northern hemisphere


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)








Op 11-jan-2013, om 11:20 heeft Willy Leenders het volgende geschreven:


  Donald,

  A nice idea.

  If you want to display the progress of the shadow from morning to 
evening, the movement must

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Roger Bailey]

Perhaps this is why there are so few analemmatic sundials in the tropics. I 
do not know of any except for the one I built years ago at 20.4°, or 3° into 
the tropics. This dial was just markings in the sand on a beach, as 
impermanent as all messages on a beach.


For similar reasons there are few vertical sundials in the tropics. The 
shadows are too long from the gnomon and any overhanging eaves. The reversal 
mid-day to the north side in the spring and summer is another design 
complexity.


In any case it is interesting to explore, as Frank has, how latitude changes 
the designs.


Regards,
Roger Bailey
from the polar side of temperate zone, N 48.6

--
From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 3:14 AM
To: Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com
Cc: vk...@optusnet.com.au; Sundial Mailing Mailing List 
sundial@uni-koeln.de

Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial


Dear Donald,

You wrote...


Brilliant idea Roderick!

I put both animations on my website.
Each one has a label under it stating
which hemisphere it's for...


Whoa!  Hold on a moment!

The fun has only just begun...

Have you thought what happens in the
tropics?

Someone living at 20 degrees north (well
into the northern hemisphere) will not
be impressed by your northern hemisphere
animation around the summer solstice.
This is what happens:

1.  The sun rises somewhat to the
north of due east (no surprise
so far).

2.  It heads south for a while and
therefore goes round clockwise
(still no surprise).  Then...

3.  Suddenly it reverses direction
and goes ANTI-clockwise, and it
stays running that way...

4.  ...through noon and...

5.  well into the afternoon.  Then...

6.  Suddenly it reverses direction
again and goes CLOCKwise until...

7.  Sunset.

Phew!  Quite a day, eh?

You get a hint of what's going on once
you draw out an analemmatic sundial for
20 deg. north.  You will see that the
date line is LONGER than the minor axis
of the hour-point ellipse.

There are two times of day when the line
from the summer solstice point (say) makes
a tangent to the ellipse.  These are the
times when the direction reverses.

I wonder how many readers think that
I am kidding :-))

Life can get tough when you start thinking
about special cases!

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial



-
No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6027 - Release Date: 01/12/13


---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

Whoa!  Hold on a moment!

The fun has only just begun...

Have you thought what happens in the
tropics?


I cover this on my web site - well sort of. I briefly explain that
analemmatic dials in the tropics don't work as well. The shadow is short at
times and the difference between the angles in the morning and afternoon
are small. If the gnomon was a metal bar than the difference between 7 and
8 am could still be still. However with the shadow of a person, probably
not.

http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/148a31b3-f3e3-4c48-a455-59918b78d363/weipa.JPG

I also show how the the date line becomes longer than the minor axis.

http://www.sundialsforlearning.com/learning-outcomes-1/learning-outcomes-2/



If I cover all bases in every situation, my website won't be for children
anymore.


Dear Donald
Good idea, I put a link on your site :
http://www.cadrans-solaires.fr/livres.html
with your 2 animations


Thank you Joel.  And  thank you everybody that is on this forum. As I said,
I had a fun time trying to understand sundials. Most of the data is for
dials in the northern hemisphere. I had to convert it to southern
hemisphere dials before I even knew how sundials work! This forum is
brilliant.


Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090
www.sundialsforlearning.com






On Sun, Jan 13, 2013 at 4:11 AM, Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net wrote:

 Perhaps this is why there are so few analemmatic sundials in the tropics.
 I do not know of any except for the one I built years ago at 20.4°, or 3°
 into the tropics. This dial was just markings in the sand on a beach, as
 impermanent as all messages on a beach.

 For similar reasons there are few vertical sundials in the tropics. The
 shadows are too long from the gnomon and any overhanging eaves. The
 reversal mid-day to the north side in the spring and summer is another
 design complexity.

 In any case it is interesting to explore, as Frank has, how latitude
 changes the designs.

 Regards,
 Roger Bailey
 from the polar side of temperate zone, N 48.6

 --**
 From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
 Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 3:14 AM
 To: Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com
 Cc: vk...@optusnet.com.au; Sundial Mailing Mailing List 
 sundial@uni-koeln.de
 Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial

  Dear Donald,

 You wrote...

  Brilliant idea Roderick!

 I put both animations on my website.
 Each one has a label under it stating
 which hemisphere it's for...


 Whoa!  Hold on a moment!

 The fun has only just begun...

 Have you thought what happens in the
 tropics?

 Someone living at 20 degrees north (well
 into the northern hemisphere) will not
 be impressed by your northern hemisphere
 animation around the summer solstice.
 This is what happens:

 1.  The sun rises somewhat to the
 north of due east (no surprise
 so far).

 2.  It heads south for a while and
 therefore goes round clockwise
 (still no surprise).  Then...

 3.  Suddenly it reverses direction
 and goes ANTI-clockwise, and it
 stays running that way...

 4.  ...through noon and...

 5.  well into the afternoon.  Then...

 6.  Suddenly it reverses direction
 again and goes CLOCKwise until...

 7.  Sunset.

 Phew!  Quite a day, eh?

 You get a hint of what's going on once
 you draw out an analemmatic sundial for
 20 deg. north.  You will see that the
 date line is LONGER than the minor axis
 of the hour-point ellipse.

 There are two times of day when the line
 from the summer solstice point (say) makes
 a tangent to the ellipse.  These are the
 times when the direction reverses.

 I wonder how many readers think that
 I am kidding :-))

 Life can get tough when you start thinking
 about special cases!

 Frank King
 Cambridge, U.K.

 --**-
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/**mailman/listinfo/sundialhttps://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial



 -

 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2638/6027 - Release Date: 01/12/13


---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Roger Bailey]

Hello Helmut,

Thank you, Helmut, for this graphical demonstration on the problems with 
tropical sundials on certain dates. The hours cannot be discriminated. The 
declination line and hour circle can coincide. Height of the gnomon and 
length of the shadow are of no help as analemmatic sundials are are two 
dimensional so height doesn't matter.  This is why I developed and 
distributed a spreadsheet and gave a presentation in 1999 on How Long is my 
Shadow: The Use of Declination Lines in the Design of Analemmatic Sundials. 
After that we successfully collaborated on improving the software and you 
developed an excellent stand alone design programs that easily provides 
information like your pdf sketch. Now all sundial designers can review how 
parameters interact. Sometimes analemmatic sundials don't work in the 
tropics.


Regards, Roger Bailey



--
From: Helmut Sonderegger (Tele2) h.sondereg...@utanet.at
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 2:32 PM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial


This as a printout with my software for an analemmatic sundial at
Northern latitude 20 deg and with shadow path of a person on Jun 1st. I
hope the attachment comes trough (52 kB).

Best regards
Hlemut

Am 12.01.2013 19:11, schrieb Roger Bailey:

Perhaps this is why there are so few analemmatic sundials in the
tropics. I do not know of any except for the one I built years ago at
20.4°, or 3° into the tropics. This dial was just markings in the sand
on a beach, as impermanent as all messages on a beach.

For similar reasons there are few vertical sundials in the tropics.
The shadows are too long from the gnomon and any overhanging eaves.
The reversal mid-day to the north side in the spring and summer is
another design complexity.

In any case it is interesting to explore, as Frank has, how latitude
changes the designs.

Regards,
Roger Bailey
from the polar side of temperate zone, N 48.6

--
From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 3:14 AM
To: Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com
Cc: vk...@optusnet.com.au; Sundial Mailing Mailing List
sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial


Dear Donald,

You wrote...


Brilliant idea Roderick!

I put both animations on my website.
Each one has a label under it stating
which hemisphere it's for...


Whoa!  Hold on a moment!

The fun has only just begun...

Have you thought what happens in the
tropics?

Someone living at 20 degrees north (well
into the northern hemisphere) will not
be impressed by your northern hemisphere
animation around the summer solstice.
This is what happens:

1.  The sun rises somewhat to the
north of due east (no surprise
so far).

2.  It heads south for a while and
therefore goes round clockwise
(still no surprise).  Then...

3.  Suddenly it reverses direction
and goes ANTI-clockwise, and it
stays running that way...

4.  ...through noon and...

5.  well into the afternoon.  Then...

6.  Suddenly it reverses direction
again and goes CLOCKwise until...

7.  Sunset.

Phew!  Quite a day, eh?

You get a hint of what's going on once
you draw out an analemmatic sundial for
20 deg. north.  You will see that the
date line is LONGER than the minor axis
of the hour-point ellipse.

There are two times of day when the line
from the summer solstice point (say) makes
a tangent to the ellipse.  These are the
times when the direction reverses.

I wonder how many readers think that
I am kidding :-))

Life can get tough when you start thinking
about special cases!

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

Donald,

A nice idea.

If you want to display the progress of the shadow from morning to evening, the 
movement must be in clockwise and not the rverse as in the animated image.

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







Op 11-jan-2013, om 03:32 heeft Donald Christensen het volgende geschreven:

 Hi all
 
 I just had a cartoonist work on the logo for my website. The idea is that I 
 wanted to put it in the footer of my emails. I will eventually put it in the 
 header of my website - or more accurately, customize the wordpress theme so 
 that I can put an animated gif next to the header.
 
 I'll include a link in case the moving logo does not work on this forum
 
 content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/d641cee8-137c-456d-afc1-334e75526254/logo
  GIRL_SHADOW.gif
 
 
 
 Cheers   
 Donald
 0423 102 090   
 www.sundialsforlearning.com

 
 
 
 ---
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
 

---
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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

My comment is valid only for the northern hemisphere


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)








Op 11-jan-2013, om 11:20 heeft Willy Leenders het volgende geschreven:

 Donald,
 
 A nice idea.
 
 If you want to display the progress of the shadow from morning to evening, 
 the movement must be in clockwise and not the rverse as in the animated image.
 
 Willy Leenders
 Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)
 
 Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) 
 with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
 http://www.wijzerweb.be
 
 
 
 
 
 
 
 Op 11-jan-2013, om 03:32 heeft Donald Christensen het volgende geschreven:
 
 Hi all
 
 I just had a cartoonist work on the logo for my website. The idea is that I 
 wanted to put it in the footer of my emails. I will eventually put it in the 
 header of my website - or more accurately, customize the wordpress theme so 
 that I can put an animated gif next to the header.
 
 I'll include a link in case the moving logo does not work on this forum
 
 content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/d641cee8-137c-456d-afc1-334e75526254/logo
  GIRL_SHADOW.gif
 
 
 
 Cheers   
 Donald
 0423 102 090   
 www.sundialsforlearning.com

 
 
 
 ---
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
 
 
 ---
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
 

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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Roger Bailey]

Yes, there is a world of difference. I was recently in New Zealand and it took 
some time to get my head around the difference for sundials. South is their 
reference pole and the numbers do go the other way around. It is interesting a 
northern designed vertical south facing sundial is identical to a southern 
horizontal dial for the co-latitude. I found a number of good sundials in New 
Zealand but didn't find any that exploited the above advantage. 

Thanks Rosaleen Robertson of the New Zealand Sundial Association 
(www.sundials.org.nz) for your assistance.

Regards, Roger Bailey 
@ 48.6° north again


From: Willy Leenders 
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:38 AM
To: Willy Leenders 
Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial






My comment is valid only for the northern hemisphere 




Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)















Op 11-jan-2013, om 11:20 heeft Willy Leenders het volgende geschreven:


  Donald, 


  A nice idea.


  If you want to display the progress of the shadow from morning to evening, 
the movement must be in clockwise and not the rverse as in the animated image. 


  Willy Leenders
  Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)


  Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) 
with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be













  Op 11-jan-2013, om 03:32 heeft Donald Christensen het volgende geschreven:


Hi all

I just had a cartoonist work on the logo for my website. The idea is that I 
wanted to put it in the footer of my emails. I will eventually put it in the 
header of my website - or more accurately, customize the wordpress theme so 
that I can put an animated gif next to the header.

I'll include a link in case the moving logo does not work on this forum


content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/d641cee8-137c-456d-afc1-334e75526254/logo
 GIRL_SHADOW.gif




Cheers   
Donald
0423 102 090   
www.sundialsforlearning.com
   




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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2637/6024 - Release Date: 01/10/13
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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Richard B. Langley]

Some years ago, I bought what seemed to be a nicely constructed  
equatorial sundial at a garden centre in Holland. I don't know about  
the display unit but the one in the box I bought turned out to be for  
the southern hemisphere when I got it home. Mounting the circular bow  
upside down made it usable although it necessitates crooking one's  
head 180 degrees to read it. ;-)


-- Richard Langley

On 11-Jan-13, at 1:32 PM, Roger Bailey wrote:

Yes, there is a world of difference. I was recently in New Zealand  
and it took some time to get my head around the difference for  
sundials. South is their reference pole and the numbers do go the  
other way around. It is interesting a northern designed vertical  
south facing sundial is identical to a southern horizontal dial for  
the co-latitude. I found a number of good sundials in New Zealand  
but didn't find any that exploited the above advantage.


Thanks Rosaleen Robertson of the New Zealand Sundial Association (www.sundials.org.nz 
) for your assistance.


Regards, Roger Bailey
@ 48.6° north again

From: Willy Leenders
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:38 AM
To: Willy Leenders
Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial



My comment is valid only for the northern hemisphere


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)








Op 11-jan-2013, om 11:20 heeft Willy Leenders het volgende geschreven:


Donald,

A nice idea.

If you want to display the progress of the shadow from morning to  
evening, the movement must be in clockwise and not the rverse as in  
the animated image.


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg  
(Flanders) with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in  
Dutch): http://www.wijzerweb.be








Op 11-jan-2013, om 03:32 heeft Donald Christensen het volgende  
geschreven:



Hi all

I just had a cartoonist work on the logo for my website. The idea  
is that I wanted to put it in the footer of my emails. I will  
eventually put it in the header of my website - or more  
accurately, customize the wordpress theme so that I can put an  
animated gif next to the header.


I'll include a link in case the moving logo does not work on this  
forum


content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/ 
d641cee8-137c-456d-afc1-334e75526254/logo GIRL_SHADOW.gif




Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090
www.sundialsforlearning.com




---
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No virus found in this message.
Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2637/6024 - Release Date:  
01/10/13


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-
| Richard B. LangleyE-mail:  
l...@unb.ca |
| Geodetic Research Laboratory  Web: http://www.unb.ca/GGE/ 
 |
| Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506  
453-5142   |
| University of New Brunswick   Fax:  +1 506  
453-4943   |
| Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B  
5A3|
|Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: http:// 
www.fredericton.ca/   |

-

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Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

Once I moved to Australia from California, It took me about 3 years before
I would stop make embarrassing mistakes concerning left from right. At
times, I felt I was 6 years old again!

I lived in California for 22 years
The ocean is west
The sun sets on the ocean
We drove on the right
When we face north, our back is to the equator

In Brisbane
The ocean is east
The sun sets inland
We drive on the left
When we face north, we are also facing the equator


I also had a fun time learning about sundials. 95% (or more) of the books
and articles are for northern hemisphere dials. I had to try to convert
this data to southern hemisphere before I even knew how a sundial works!


I have changed the animation for the shadow to rotate the other direction.
However, I'm still undecided of which one to use on my website and email
footer

http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/424ea0f6-012b-4d4f-ac4e-beb931f04403/GIRL_SHADOW%20northern%20dial.gif

Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090
www.sundialsforlearning.com






On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Richard B. Langley l...@unb.ca wrote:

 Some years ago, I bought what seemed to be a nicely constructed equatorial
 sundial at a garden centre in Holland. I don't know about the display unit
 but the one in the box I bought turned out to be for the southern
 hemisphere when I got it home. Mounting the circular bow upside down made
 it usable although it necessitates crooking one's head 180 degrees to read
 it. ;-)

 -- Richard Langley


 On 11-Jan-13, at 1:32 PM, Roger Bailey wrote:

  Yes, there is a world of difference. I was recently in New Zealand and it
 took some time to get my head around the difference for sundials. South is
 their reference pole and the numbers do go the other way around. It is
 interesting a northern designed vertical south facing sundial is identical
 to a southern horizontal dial for the co-latitude. I found a number of good
 sundials in New Zealand but didn't find any that exploited the above
 advantage.

 Thanks Rosaleen Robertson of the New Zealand Sundial Association (
 www.sundials.org.nz) for your assistance.

 Regards, Roger Bailey
 @ 48.6° north again

 From: Willy Leenders
 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:38 AM
 To: Willy Leenders
 Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de
 Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial



 My comment is valid only for the northern hemisphere


 Willy Leenders
 Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)








 Op 11-jan-2013, om 11:20 heeft Willy Leenders het volgende geschreven:

  Donald,

 A nice idea.

 If you want to display the progress of the shadow from morning to
 evening, the movement must be in clockwise and not the rverse as in the
 animated image.

 Willy Leenders
 Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

 Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg
 (Flanders) with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch):
 http://www.wijzerweb.be







 Op 11-jan-2013, om 03:32 heeft Donald Christensen het volgende
 geschreven:

  Hi all

 I just had a cartoonist work on the logo for my website. The idea is
 that I wanted to put it in the footer of my emails. I will eventually put
 it in the header of my website - or more accurately, customize the
 wordpress theme so that I can put an animated gif next to the header.

 I'll include a link in case the moving logo does not work on this forum

 content.screencast.com/users/**dchristensen777/folders/**
 Default/media/d641cee8-137c-**456d-afc1-334e75526254/logohttp://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/d641cee8-137c-456d-afc1-334e75526254/logoGIRL_SHADOW.gif



 Cheers
 Donald
 0423 102 090
 www.sundialsforlearning.com




 --**-
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/**mailman/listinfo/sundialhttps://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial


 --**-
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/**mailman/listinfo/sundialhttps://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial




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 No virus found in this message.
 Checked by AVG - www.avg.com
 Version: 2013.0.2890 / Virus Database: 2637/6024 - Release Date: 01/10/13

 --**-
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/**mailman/listinfo/sundialhttps://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial


 --**--**
 -
 | Richard B. LangleyE-mail: l...@unb.ca
   |
 | Geodetic Research Laboratory  Web:
 http://www.unb.ca/GGE/ |
 | Dept. of Geodesy and Geomatics EngineeringPhone:+1 506 453-5142
   |
 | University of New Brunswick   Fax:  +1 506 453-4943
   |
 | Fredericton, N.B., Canada  E3B 5A3
  |
 |Fredericton?  Where's that?  See: http://www.fredericton.ca

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[R Wall ml]

Hi Donald,

In Melbourne Australia we also drive on the left. But the sun still/always 
comes up in the East and sets in the West. The top edge of the style is still 
parallel with the axis of Earth. But as your animations show, the shadow in the 
Southern Hemisphere moves in a anticlockwise direction. And in a clockwise 
direction for the Northern Hemisphere.

I did read somewhere where they say that the mechanical clock was invented in 
the Northern Hemisphere. Because the clock hands also move in a clockwise 
direction like the direction of the sun’s shadow in the Northern Hemisphere. 
Also interesting is that car speedos and other indicators also increase in a 
clockwise direction. Maybe someone else knows more about this?

Like you I also find that a lot of sundial articles are written for the 
Northern Hemisphere. But I’m now use to having to convert them for the Southern 
Hemisphere, It’s even fun.

With regard to your question on which animation you should use. Maybe you are 
able to determine if the visitors to your website are from the Northern or 
Southern Hemisphere, then display the correct Girl animation for them. Or you 
could have a question link asking which hemisphere they are from and display 
the correct animation. You may also like to turn one of the animations around 
(refer to below).

On your website (and girl animations). I note that there are two sundials, one 
for Perth Australia and another for Whitehorse Canada. Would it be better to 
turn one around so that the points of the compass are in the same direction for 
both sundials, and to locate them so that the Canadian sundial is in the 
Northern Hemisphere and the Australian sundial is in the Southern Hemisphere? I 
suppose Australia is down under and would be at the bottom. You may also like 
to indicate where N, S, E and W are. Would this give a better understanding? 
You may also like to combine both girl animations to be in the same animation. 

I hope you are not near the bushfires there in Queensland. It’s been hot here 
in Melbourne, but this year not near the bushfires. I note that NSW have had 
130 different fires burning at the same time.

Regards,

Roderick Wall.

From: Donald Christensen 
Sent: Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:34 AM
To: Richard B. Langley 
Cc: Sundial Mailing Mailing List 
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial

Once I moved to Australia from California, It took me about 3 years before I 
would stop make embarrassing mistakes concerning left from right. At times, I 
felt I was 6 years old again!

I lived in California for 22 years
The ocean is west
The sun sets on the ocean
We drove on the right
When we face north, our back is to the equator

In Brisbane
The ocean is east
The sun sets inland
We drive on the left
When we face north, we are also facing the equator


I also had a fun time learning about sundials. 95% (or more) of the books and 
articles are for northern hemisphere dials. I had to try to convert this data 
to southern hemisphere before I even knew how a sundial works!


I have changed the animation for the shadow to rotate the other direction. 
However, I'm still undecided of which one to use on my website and email footer

http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/424ea0f6-012b-4d4f-ac4e-beb931f04403/GIRL_SHADOW%20northern%20dial.gif
 

Cheers   
Donald
0423 102 090   
www.sundialsforlearning.com
   







On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Richard B. Langley l...@unb.ca wrote:

  Some years ago, I bought what seemed to be a nicely constructed equatorial 
sundial at a garden centre in Holland. I don't know about the display unit but 
the one in the box I bought turned out to be for the southern hemisphere when I 
got it home. Mounting the circular bow upside down made it usable although it 
necessitates crooking one's head 180 degrees to read it. ;-)

  -- Richard Langley 


  On 11-Jan-13, at 1:32 PM, Roger Bailey wrote:


Yes, there is a world of difference. I was recently in New Zealand and it 
took some time to get my head around the difference for sundials. South is 
their reference pole and the numbers do go the other way around. It is 
interesting a northern designed vertical south facing sundial is identical to a 
southern horizontal dial for the co-latitude. I found a number of good sundials 
in New Zealand but didn't find any that exploited the above advantage.

Thanks Rosaleen Robertson of the New Zealand Sundial Association 
(www.sundials.org.nz) for your assistance.

Regards, Roger Bailey
@ 48.6° north again

From: Willy Leenders
Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:38 AM
To: Willy Leenders
Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Re: Analemmatic sundial



My comment is valid only for the northern hemisphere


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)








Op 11-jan-2013, om 11:20 heeft Willy Leenders het volgende geschreven

Re: Analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

Brilliant idea Roderick!

I put both animations on my website. Each one has a label under it stating
which hemisphere it's for

Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090
www.sundialsforlearning.com






On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 12:24 PM, R Wall ml maillis...@optusnet.com.auwrote:

   Hi Donald,

  In Melbourne Australia we also drive on the left. But the sun
 still/always comes up in the East and sets in the West. The top edge of the
 style is still parallel with the axis of Earth. But as your animations
 show, the shadow in the Southern Hemisphere moves in a anticlockwise
 direction. And in a clockwise direction for the Northern Hemisphere.

  I did read somewhere where they say that the mechanical clock was
 invented in the Northern Hemisphere. Because the clock hands also move in a
 clockwise direction like the direction of the sun’s shadow in the Northern
 Hemisphere. Also interesting is that car speedos and other indicators also
 increase in a clockwise direction. Maybe someone else knows more about this?

  Like you I also find that a lot of sundial articles are written for the
 Northern Hemisphere. But I’m now use to having to convert them for the
 Southern Hemisphere, It’s even fun.

  With regard to your question on which animation you should use. Maybe
 you are able to determine if the visitors to your website are from the
 Northern or Southern Hemisphere, then display the correct Girl animation
 for them. Or you could have a question link asking which hemisphere they
 are from and display the correct animation. You may also like to turn one
 of the animations around (refer to below).

  On your website (and girl animations). I note that there are two
 sundials, one for Perth Australia and another for Whitehorse Canada. Would
 it be better to turn one around so that the points of the compass are in
 the same direction for both sundials, and to locate them so that the
 Canadian sundial is in the Northern Hemisphere and the Australian sundial
 is in the Southern Hemisphere? I suppose Australia is down under and would
 be at the bottom. You may also like to indicate where N, S, E and W are.
 Would this give a better understanding? You may also like to combine both
 girl animations to be in the same animation.

  I hope you are not near the bushfires there in Queensland. It’s been hot
 here in Melbourne, but this year not near the bushfires. I note that NSW
 have had 130 different fires burning at the same time.

  Regards,

  Roderick Wall.

  *From:* Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com
 *Sent:* Saturday, January 12, 2013 10:34 AM
 *To:* Richard B. Langley l...@unb.ca
 *Cc:* Sundial Mailing Mailing List sundial@uni-koeln.de
 *Subject:* Re: Analemmatic sundial

 Once I moved to Australia from California, It took me about 3 years before
 I would stop make embarrassing mistakes concerning left from right. At
 times, I felt I was 6 years old again!

 I lived in California for 22 years
 The ocean is west
 The sun sets on the ocean
 We drove on the right
 When we face north, our back is to the equator

 In Brisbane
 The ocean is east
 The sun sets inland
 We drive on the left
 When we face north, we are also facing the equator


 I also had a fun time learning about sundials. 95% (or more) of the books
 and articles are for northern hemisphere dials. I had to try to convert
 this data to southern hemisphere before I even knew how a sundial works!


 I have changed the animation for the shadow to rotate the other direction.
 However, I'm still undecided of which one to use on my website and email
 footer


 http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/424ea0f6-012b-4d4f-ac4e-beb931f04403/GIRL_SHADOW%20northern%20dial.gif

 Cheers
 Donald
 0423 102 090
 www.sundialsforlearning.com






 On Sat, Jan 12, 2013 at 3:40 AM, Richard B. Langley l...@unb.ca wrote:

 Some years ago, I bought what seemed to be a nicely constructed
 equatorial sundial at a garden centre in Holland. I don't know about the
 display unit but the one in the box I bought turned out to be for the
 southern hemisphere when I got it home. Mounting the circular bow upside
 down made it usable although it necessitates crooking one's head 180
 degrees to read it. ;-)

 -- Richard Langley


 On 11-Jan-13, at 1:32 PM, Roger Bailey wrote:

  Yes, there is a world of difference. I was recently in New Zealand and
 it took some time to get my head around the difference for sundials. South
 is their reference pole and the numbers do go the other way around. It is
 interesting a northern designed vertical south facing sundial is identical
 to a southern horizontal dial for the co-latitude. I found a number of good
 sundials in New Zealand but didn't find any that exploited the above
 advantage.

 Thanks Rosaleen Robertson of the New Zealand Sundial Association (
 www.sundials.org.nz) for your assistance.

 Regards, Roger Bailey
 @ 48.6° north again

 From: Willy Leenders
 Sent: Friday, January 11, 2013 2:38 AM
 To: Willy

Re: analemmatic sundial on a slope

[fer de vries]

Donald,

As already comfirmed by others, your thoughts about the (elliptical) 
analemmatic sundial will work.
If the slope isn't to high a human still may act as the shadowcaster, otherwise 
a vertical rod is needed.

But there is a second solution.
Calculate the equivalent horizontal place for the sloped plane.
You get a new latitude for that place and an offset in longitude.
Calculate the usual horizontal analemmatic sundial for the place with 
correction for the longitude offset.
Just put the dial on your sloped plane with the gnomon perpendicular to the 
plane.

Best wishes, Fer.

Fer J. de Vries

De Zonnewijzerkring
http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl

Molens
http://www.collsemolen.dse.nl

Eindhoven, Netherlands
lat.  51:30 N  long.  5:30 E

  - Original Message - 
  From: Donald Christensen 
  To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
  Sent: Saturday, September 08, 2012 4:12 AM
  Subject: analemmatic sundial on a slope


  Will an analemmatic sundial work on a slope?




  I've designed a sundial on a slope but I'm not sure if it will work.




  
http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/0a769c4b-d61c-4f5d-b187-5b74dbc56e07/1.jpg




  This is a pic of an equatorial dial. I have projected the lines down to draw 
an analemmatic sundial for a horizontal surface. The sunlight strikes the blue 
gnomen on the equatorial dial. Where it hits the gnomen, I project it down 
(red) to draw the month line. The shadow then strikes the 1pm and I project 
that down as well.




  
http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/6abf010e-8416-41a3-ba75-f69f63d0109f/2.JPG





  This is an analemmatic sundial designed on a horizontal surface. I have 
projected all hour and month points down to where they intersect on the gray 
slope.







  
http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/5354cc54-f058-4854-bb3a-844a9b8fa89f/3.JPG





  This is the analemmatic sundial designed for a slope.




  I'm unsure this will work. I'm confident that I projected the lines 
correctly. A person that stands on the month line will be standing upright. 
They won't be perpendicular to the ground. Of course a gnomen that is 
perpendicular to the slope won't work. However I'm wondering if a vertical 
gnomen will work

  Cheers
  Donald
  0423 102 090


  This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended 
recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of 
this email is subject to penalty of law.
  So there!



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Re: analemmatic sundial on a slope

[Helmut Sonderegger (Tele2)]

Hello Donald,

At my fist look, your method is correct. Anselmo Perez Serrada made a 
spreadsheet to calculate inclining and deviating analemmatic sundials. 
There you could control your results. I do not know his web site but I 
have this spreadsheet. Maybe somebody of this list knows Serrada's 
website to download the newest version.


On my website there is only software Alemma, which calculates 
different horizontal and inclining analemmatic sundials but not deviating


Regards
Helmut Sonderegger
www.helson.at


Am 08.09.2012 04:12, schrieb Donald Christensen:


Will an analemmatic sundial work on a slope?


I've designed a sundial on a slope but I'm not sure if it will work.


http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/0a769c4b-d61c-4f5d-b187-5b74dbc56e07/1.jpg


This is a pic of an equatorial dial. I have projected the lines down 
to draw an analemmatic sundial for a horizontal surface. The sunlight 
strikes the blue gnomen on the equatorial dial. Where it hits the 
gnomen, I project it down (red) to draw the month line. The shadow 
then strikes the 1pm and I project that down as well.



http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/6abf010e-8416-41a3-ba75-f69f63d0109f/2.JPG


This is an analemmatic sundial designed on a horizontal surface. I 
have projected all hour and month points down to where they intersect 
on the gray slope.




http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/5354cc54-f058-4854-bb3a-844a9b8fa89f/3.JPG


This is the analemmatic sundial designed for a slope.


I'm unsure this will work. I'm confident that I projected the lines 
correctly. A person that stands on the month line will be standing 
upright. They won't be perpendicular to the ground. Of course a gnomen 
that is perpendicular to the slope won't work. However I'm wondering 
if a vertical gnomen will work


Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090


This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the 
intended recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. 
Un-authorized use of this email is subject to penalty of law.

So there!


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Re: analemmatic sundial on a slope

[Willy Leenders]

On the website of Frans Maes at 
http://www.fransmaes.nl/zonnewijzers/welcome-e.htm (go to analemmatic - extra 
info) you will find a simple explanation of the derivation of an analemmatic 
sundial from an equatorial sundial.

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







Op 8-sep-2012, om 04:12 heeft Donald Christensen het volgende geschreven:

 Will an analemmatic sundial work on a slope?
 
 I've designed a sundial on a slope but I'm not sure if it will work.
 
 http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/0a769c4b-d61c-4f5d-b187-5b74dbc56e07/1.jpg
 
 This is a pic of an equatorial dial. I have projected the lines down to draw 
 an analemmatic sundial for a horizontal surface. The sunlight strikes the 
 blue gnomen on the equatorial dial. Where it hits the gnomen, I project it 
 down (red) to draw the month line. The shadow then strikes the 1pm and I 
 project that down as well.
 
 http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/6abf010e-8416-41a3-ba75-f69f63d0109f/2.JPG
 
 This is an analemmatic sundial designed on a horizontal surface. I have 
 projected all hour and month points down to where they intersect on the gray 
 slope.
 
 
 http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/5354cc54-f058-4854-bb3a-844a9b8fa89f/3.JPG
 
 This is the analemmatic sundial designed for a slope.
 
 I'm unsure this will work. I'm confident that I projected the lines 
 correctly. A person that stands on the month line will be standing upright. 
 They won't be perpendicular to the ground. Of course a gnomen that is 
 perpendicular to the slope won't work. However I'm wondering if a vertical 
 gnomen will work
 
 Cheers
 Donald
 0423 102 090
 
 
 This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended 
 recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use 
 of this email is subject to penalty of law.
 So there!
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Re: analemmatic sundial on a slope

[Roger Bailey]

Hello Donald,

My initial impression is that you have captured the essence of analemmatic 
sundials. They are a a projection straight down of the equatorial disc for the 
hour ellipse and the active portion of the polar gnomon for the zodiac line. 
Normally the projection is onto a horizontal plane, but it could be a sloping 
plane as well so your solution follows the correct logic.

Regards, 
Roger Bailey. 
N 48.6, W 123.4



From: Donald Christensen 
Sent: Friday, September 07, 2012 7:12 PM
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
Subject: analemmatic sundial on a slope


Will an analemmatic sundial work on a slope?




I've designed a sundial on a slope but I'm not sure if it will work.




http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/0a769c4b-d61c-4f5d-b187-5b74dbc56e07/1.jpg




This is a pic of an equatorial dial. I have projected the lines down to draw an 
analemmatic sundial for a horizontal surface. The sunlight strikes the blue 
gnomen on the equatorial dial. Where it hits the gnomen, I project it down 
(red) to draw the month line. The shadow then strikes the 1pm and I project 
that down as well.




http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/6abf010e-8416-41a3-ba75-f69f63d0109f/2.JPG





This is an analemmatic sundial designed on a horizontal surface. I have 
projected all hour and month points down to where they intersect on the gray 
slope.







http://content.screencast.com/users/dchristensen777/folders/Default/media/5354cc54-f058-4854-bb3a-844a9b8fa89f/3.JPG





This is the analemmatic sundial designed for a slope.




I'm unsure this will work. I'm confident that I projected the lines correctly. 
A person that stands on the month line will be standing upright. They won't be 
perpendicular to the ground. Of course a gnomen that is perpendicular to the 
slope won't work. However I'm wondering if a vertical gnomen will work

Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090


This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended 
recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of 
this email is subject to penalty of law.
So there!






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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Frank King]

Dear All,

I am delighted that so many readers explored
the amusing problem of how long the sun can
fall on a north-facing wall.

I liked the diagrams that Roger and Helmut
prepared.

The different approaches led to much the same
answers, including Roger's once he had looked
at the correct side of the wall!

Willy says:

  You're right.
  Never and nowhere a vertical wall can receive
  sunlight over a longer period of time in a day.

Helmut adds:

  Further on the pdf shows that the maximum of sun 
  on a south wall is 12:00 hours but, at equinox
  not on summer solstice.

This needs interpretation...

For the maximum sun on a vertical *south* wall you
have to place it on the ANTarctic circle where you
get the same answer!

Helmut is right that a south-facing wall gets
12 hours of sun at an equinox.  This is true
for any south-facing vertical wall in the
northern hemisphere.  You won't get 12 hours
on the south side in the southern hemisphere!

Alas, here it is raining so no sun at all, and in
half an hour I am leading 20 visiting academics on
a sundial walk walk:-(

Enjoy the sun if you have it!

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

Few people know that a north-facing sundial is useful.
They are quite surprised that the insolation time of a north-facing sundial in 
summer (summer solstice) may be as long as the insolation time of a 
south-facing sundial in winter (winter solstice).
This is the case at 53 ° 18 'N.
For example,
- in Bedum, 9 km north of Groningen (Netherlands)
- in Marxen, 18 km south of Hamburg (Germany)
 -near the motorway junction of the A41 and the M53, 12 km south of Liverpool 
(Great Britain)
- in the north of Lake Winnipeg in Canada.


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be


Op 3-jul-2012, om 11:03 heeft Frank King het volgende geschreven:

 Dear All,
 
 I am delighted that so many readers explored
 the amusing problem of how long the sun can
 fall on a north-facing wall.
 
 I liked the diagrams that Roger and Helmut
 prepared.
 
 The different approaches led to much the same
 answers, including Roger's once he had looked
 at the correct side of the wall!
 
 Willy says:
 
  You're right.
  Never and nowhere a vertical wall can receive
  sunlight over a longer period of time in a day.
 
 Helmut adds:
 
  Further on the pdf shows that the maximum of sun 
  on a south wall is 12:00 hours but, at equinox
  not on summer solstice.
 
 This needs interpretation...
 
 For the maximum sun on a vertical *south* wall you
 have to place it on the ANTarctic circle where you
 get the same answer!
 
 Helmut is right that a south-facing wall gets
 12 hours of sun at an equinox.  This is true
 for any south-facing vertical wall in the
 northern hemisphere.  You won't get 12 hours
 on the south side in the southern hemisphere!
 
 Alas, here it is raining so no sun at all, and in
 half an hour I am leading 20 visiting academics on
 a sundial walk walk:-(
 
 Enjoy the sun if you have it!
 
 Frank King
 Cambridge, U.K.
 
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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Mike Shaw]

Willy,

They are quite surprised that the insolation time of a north-facing sundial 
in summer (summer solstice) may be as long as the insolation time of a 
south-facing sundial in winter (winter solstice).
This is the case at 53 ° 18 'N.
For example,
-near the motorway junction of the A41 and the M53, 12 km south of Liverpool 
(Great Britain)



A very useful fact for me to know, as I live at 53º 22’ North, quite close.
In fact, 5.9 miles from the junction of the A41 and M53.

Mike Shaw
53º 22'N 03º02'W
www.wiz.to/sundials




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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Frank King]

Dear Willy,

I much enjoyed looking at your diagrams on:

  http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html

Now consider the following special case...

  1. Use the latitude of the Arctic Circle

  2. Take a Direct NORTH-facing vertical wall

  3. Take the day of the Summer Solstice

  4. Assuming a clear sky, for how many hours can
 sunlight fall on the north face of the wall?

This is the theoretical maximum sunlight that a
(single-sided) vertical wall can receive in a day.
The south side doesn't get so much sun!

Your diagram works very well, though some readers
may find the Lambert Circle a little surprising in
this special case :-)

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Fabio nonvedolora]

dear Frank and Willy,

I share the point of view of Frank, the insolation of a dial may produce 
unexpected results changing its latitude or its orientation.


A dial is enlightned when the sun is above the horizon and when it is above 
the dial.
The sun is above the dial when it is above the horizon of the point where it 
become horizontal, moving it parallel to itself. I don't know  the exact 
english definition of these coordinates, I might translate it as 'horizontal 
equivalent point'.
To calculate this coordinates is easy: usually we know latitude, declination 
and inclination of the dial from wich we get substyle angle, elevation angle 
of the style and substyle hour (or substyle time). The elevation angle is 
the latitude of the horizontal equivalent point and the substyle hour 
(misured as an angle) is its longitude.


Now it is possibile to calculate the daily arc of the local horizon, 
centered at noon, and the daily arc of the equivalent horizon, centered at 
substyle time, their
comparison determines the enlighting of the dial and it depends on the sun 
declination.


ciao Fabio

Fabio Savian
fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy
45° 34' 10'' N, 9° 10' 9'' E, GMT+1 (DST +2)

-Messaggio originale- 
From: Frank King

Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 4:37 PM
To: 'Willy Leenders' ; 'Sundial sundiallist' ; Frank King
Subject: Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an 
analemmatic sundial


Dear Willy,

I much enjoyed looking at your diagrams on:

 http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html

Now consider the following special case...

 1. Use the latitude of the Arctic Circle

 2. Take a Direct NORTH-facing vertical wall

 3. Take the day of the Summer Solstice

 4. Assuming a clear sky, for how many hours can
sunlight fall on the north face of the wall?

This is the theoretical maximum sunlight that a
(single-sided) vertical wall can receive in a day.
The south side doesn't get so much sun!

Your diagram works very well, though some readers
may find the Lambert Circle a little surprising in
this special case :-)

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Roger Bailey]

Hello Frank,

This is an interesting example but I don't quite agree with your conclusion. 
I estimate the south wall receives 13:20 hours and the north side only 
10:40. To draw the analemmatic sundial with Lambert Circles in green and 
seasonal marker azimuth lines in blue, I use the DeltaCad NASS macro 
attached. Fer de Vries wrote the original. I hacked it to include seasonal 
markers as a separate layer. This example also shows that the seasonal 
marker concept fails at high latitudes. The rise and set azimuth lines no 
longer converge.


Roger Bailey

--
From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 7:37 AM
To: 'Willy Leenders' willy.leend...@telenet.be; 'Sundial sundiallist' 
sundial@uni-koeln.de; Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Subject: Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an 
analemmatic sundial



Dear Willy,

I much enjoyed looking at your diagrams on:

 http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html

Now consider the following special case...

 1. Use the latitude of the Arctic Circle

 2. Take a Direct NORTH-facing vertical wall

 3. Take the day of the Summer Solstice

 4. Assuming a clear sky, for how many hours can
sunlight fall on the north face of the wall?

This is the theoretical maximum sunlight that a
(single-sided) vertical wall can receive in a day.
The south side doesn't get so much sun!

Your diagram works very well, though some readers
may find the Lambert Circle a little surprising in
this special case :-)

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

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hor_analem3SM.bas
Description: Binary data
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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Fabio nonvedolora]

I realized I loss the conclusion: I didn't know this graphic method, it is 
interesting, and 'visual', for the vertical dial. Well done Willy.


Fabio

Fabio Savian
fabio.sav...@nonvedolora.it
Paderno Dugnano, Milano, Italy
45° 34' 10'' N, 9° 10' 9'' E, GMT+1 (DST +2) 


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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Roger Bailey]

The original was too large for the size filter. Attached is a small version as 
a GIF. Regards, Roger


From: Roger Bailey 
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 9:09 AM
To: 'Willy Leenders' ; 'Sundial sundiallist' ; Frank King 
Subject: Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an 
analemmatic sundial


Here is a copy of the sketch for those without DeltaCAD. Green are the Lambert 
Circles for various dates. Blue are the azimuth lines for sunrise and set. The 
math fails when sunrise and set is at 12, due north, on the summer solstice. 
The wall parallel is the black line through the date point. This wall line 
crosses the sundial ellipse when the sun is due east and west as the wall faces 
due north and south.  

Regards, Roger





--
From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 7:37 AM
To: 'Willy Leenders' willy.leend...@telenet.be; 'Sundial sundiallist' 
sundial@uni-koeln.de; Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Subject: Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an 
analemmatic sundial

 Dear Willy,
 
 I much enjoyed looking at your diagrams on:
 
  http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html
 
 Now consider the following special case...
 
  1. Use the latitude of the Arctic Circle
 
  2. Take a Direct NORTH-facing vertical wall
 
  3. Take the day of the Summer Solstice
 
  4. Assuming a clear sky, for how many hours can
 sunlight fall on the north face of the wall?
 
 This is the theoretical maximum sunlight that a
 (single-sided) vertical wall can receive in a day.
 The south side doesn't get so much sun!
 
 Your diagram works very well, though some readers
 may find the Lambert Circle a little surprising in
 this special case :-)
 
 Frank King
 Cambridge, U.K.
 
 ---
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attachment: Lambert SM.gif---
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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

Dear Frank,

Thank you for the appreciation.

Using my method (on an Excel grafic simulation) I see that in the case you 
describe the insolation period of the north facing wall is:
from 0:17 to 6:43 = 6:26 hours
and from 17:17 to 23:43 = 6:26 hours
= a total insolation period of 12:52

You're right.
Never and nowhere a vertical wall can receive sunlight over a longer period of 
time in a day.


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







Op 2-jul-2012, om 16:37 heeft Frank King het volgende geschreven:

 Dear Willy,
 
 I much enjoyed looking at your diagrams on:
 
  http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html
 
 Now consider the following special case...
 
  1. Use the latitude of the Arctic Circle
 
  2. Take a Direct NORTH-facing vertical wall
 
  3. Take the day of the Summer Solstice
 
  4. Assuming a clear sky, for how many hours can
 sunlight fall on the north face of the wall?
 
 This is the theoretical maximum sunlight that a
 (single-sided) vertical wall can receive in a day.
 The south side doesn't get so much sun!
 
 Your diagram works very well, though some readers
 may find the Lambert Circle a little surprising in
 this special case :-)
 
 Frank King
 Cambridge, U.K.
 

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Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

The calculation of Helmut Sonderegger showed me that I should not take the 
rounded value of 66.5 ° but the exact value of 66:33:33

Then the results are:

Using my method (on an Excel grafic simulation) I see that in the case you 
describe the insolation period of the north facing wall is:
from 0:00 to 6:43 = 6:43 hours
and from 17:17 to 24:00 = 6:43 hours
= a total insolation period of 13:26

You're right.
Never and nowhere a vertical wall can receive sunlight over a longer period of 
time in a day.


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







Op 2-jul-2012, om 16:37 heeft Frank King het volgende geschreven:

 Dear Willy,
 
 I much enjoyed looking at your diagrams on:
 
  http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html
 
 Now consider the following special case...
 
  1. Use the latitude of the Arctic Circle
 
  2. Take a Direct NORTH-facing vertical wall
 
  3. Take the day of the Summer Solstice
 
  4. Assuming a clear sky, for how many hours can
 sunlight fall on the north face of the wall?
 
 This is the theoretical maximum sunlight that a
 (single-sided) vertical wall can receive in a day.
 The south side doesn't get so much sun!
 
 Your diagram works very well, though some readers
 may find the Lambert Circle a little surprising in
 this special case :-)
 
 Frank King
 Cambridge, U.K.
 

---
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Fw: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Roger Bailey]

I am now in full agreement that the north side of the wall gets more 
sunshine. When the sun is to the north side of the wall, the hours indicated 
by the shadow are read on the south side of the hour ellipse.


Regards, Roger

--
From: Roger Bailey rtbai...@telus.net
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 8:56 AM
To: 'Willy Leenders' willy.leend...@telenet.be; 'Sundial sundiallist' 
sundial@uni-koeln.de; Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Subject: Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall,using an 
analemmatic sundial



Hello Frank,

This is an interesting example but I don't quite agree with your 
conclusion.

I estimate the south wall receives 13:20 hours and the north side only
10:40. To draw the analemmatic sundial with Lambert Circles in green and
seasonal marker azimuth lines in blue, I use the DeltaCad NASS macro
attached. Fer de Vries wrote the original. I hacked it to include seasonal
markers as a separate layer. This example also shows that the seasonal
marker concept fails at high latitudes. The rise and set azimuth lines no
longer converge.

Roger Bailey

--
From: Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Sent: Monday, July 02, 2012 7:37 AM
To: 'Willy Leenders' willy.leend...@telenet.be; 'Sundial 
sundiallist'

sundial@uni-koeln.de; Frank King frank.k...@cl.cam.ac.uk
Subject: Re: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using 
an

analemmatic sundial


Dear Willy,

I much enjoyed looking at your diagrams on:

 http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html

Now consider the following special case...

 1. Use the latitude of the Arctic Circle

 2. Take a Direct NORTH-facing vertical wall

 3. Take the day of the Summer Solstice

 4. Assuming a clear sky, for how many hours can
sunlight fall on the north face of the wall?

This is the theoretical maximum sunlight that a
(single-sided) vertical wall can receive in a day.
The south side doesn't get so much sun!

Your diagram works very well, though some readers
may find the Lambert Circle a little surprising in
this special case :-)

Frank King
Cambridge, U.K.

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a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

On my website I describe the analemmatic sundial and some posibilities of this 
type of sundial.

Inter alia, the Lambert Circle, and thereto is added a way to determine the 
period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial.
For these two descriptions I made a separate English translation and put them 
on my website at this address: http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html
The full page about analemmatic sundials, although in Dutch, you'll find at 
this address: http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatisch.html


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







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RE: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial

[Dave Bell]

Very elegant! 

It would be interesting to build a mechanical model with a moveable rule for
the wall line, for field checking.

 

Dave

 

  _  

From: sundial [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de] On Behalf Of Willy
Leenders
Sent: Sunday, July 01, 2012 11:54 AM
To: Sundial sundiallist
Subject: a way to determine the period of insolation of a wall,using an
analemmatic sundial

 

On my website I describe the analemmatic sundial and some posibilities of
this type of sundial.

Inter alia, the Lambert Circle, and thereto is added a way to determine the
period of insolation of a wall, using an analemmatic sundial.
For these two descriptions I made a separate English translation and put
them on my website at this address:
http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatischengels.html
The full page about analemmatic sundials, although in Dutch, you'll find at
this address: http://www.wijzerweb.be/analemmatisch.html


Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders)
with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch):
http://www.wijzerweb.be








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Photos of analemmatic sundial at Longwood Gardens

[Rob Seaman]

Hi,

Sundial list readers may be interested in some photos of the analemmatic 
sundial at Longwood Gardens near Philadelphia that I've posted at:


https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.279889682033308.71676.10368341380l=faa7b7e146type=1

This was the highlight of the tour associated with the meeting Decoupling 
Civil Timekeeping from Earth Rotation:

http://futureofutc.org

(Although the pump room underneath the fountains was very cool, too.)

Rob Seaman
National Optical Astronomy Observatory

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Re: analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

See on my website
http://www.wijzerweb.be/hasselt010A.html

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







Op 8-aug-2011, om 06:24 heeft Donald Christensen het volgende geschreven:

 I have lots of analemmatic sundials pics. However, I can't find any in 
 gardens.
 
 I'm after a pic. the more vegitation the better. Can anyone help?
 
 -- 
 Cheers
 Donald
 0423 102 090
 
 
 This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended 
 recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use 
 of this email is subject to penalty of law.
 So there!
 ---
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Re: analemmatic sundial

[fer de vries]

Donald,

For a while I have some placed in a .zip file for download at:

http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl/downloads/analem-dials.zip


Fer.

Fer J. de Vries

De Zonnewijzerkring
http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl

Molens
http://www.collsemolen.dse.nl

Eindhoven, Netherlands
lat.  51:30 N  long.  5:30 E

  - Original Message - 
  From: Donald Christensen 
  To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
  Sent: Monday, August 08, 2011 6:24 AM
  Subject: analemmatic sundial


  I have lots of analemmatic sundials pics. However, I can't find any in 
gardens.

  I'm after a pic. the more vegitation the better. Can anyone help?

  -- 
  Cheers
  Donald
  0423 102 090


  This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended 
recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use of 
this email is subject to penalty of law.
  So there!



--


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Re: analemmatic sundial

[William Irvine]

In message cac+ykpskxdewyhg6lrsrwwr5astkyo18xxv94reew1cvpes...@mail.gmail.com
  Donald Christensen dchristensen...@gmail.com wrote:

 I have lots of analemmatic sundials pics. However, I can't find any in
 gardens.
 
 I'm after a pic. the more vegitation the better. Can anyone help?
 

Dear Donald,

No doubt more people will offer other suggestions, but here are two
photographs which possibly seem to cover what you are looking for.

http://www.sunclocks.com/pics/p005+a.jpg

http://www.sunclocks.com/pics/p013+a.jpg


There are many more 'analemmatic' photographs (and in all kinds of
situations, not just gardens) - within their main website Picture
Gallery area - at URL  http://www.sunclocks.com/info/select.htm


Hoping that the above is of help  -  Best Regards,  Bill Irvine.


-- 
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analemmatic sundial

[Donald Christensen]

I have lots of analemmatic sundials pics. However, I can't find any in
gardens.

I'm after a pic. the more vegitation the better. Can anyone help?

-- 
Cheers
Donald
0423 102 090


This e-mail is privileged and confidential. If you are not the intended
recipient please delete the message and notify the sender. Un-authorized use
of this email is subject to penalty of law.
So there!
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Re: School analemmatic sundial

[Tony Moss]

On 28/06/2011 16:43, Martina Addiscott wrote:




Dear Pat,

Thanks for contacting the Sundial Mailing List, and no doubt other
members will also respond to your enquiry about an Analemmatic dial.



Our local Educational Authority would not allow us to have the full-
size version on our playground (they felt that it was too dangerous
for the children!) - so we just made small working models, instead.


Sincerely,

Martina Addiscott.



Hi Martina,
My curiosity is aroused. Did they actually list any of the 'dangers' 
they anticipated in what would arguably be among the least strenuous 
activities in a school playground...after standing upright and walking 
around that is. ;-)


Regards,

Tony Moss
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Re: School analemmatic sundial

[darkroom3]

 I have no idea what dangers a analemmatic dial would have if it were painted 
on a playground.  If the hour points were on posts sticking out of the ground I 
guess someone could trip but that would not be a logical way to build one on a 
playground anyway.  I have read parts of the controversy about the sundial 
being dangerous and can not fathom why.


I also wanted to thank everyone that has replied to my thread.  The information 
I have got has been overwhelming and I am very grateful.

I have a lot to learn over the next month or so before school starts.

Thank you,

Pat


 

 

-Original Message-
From: Tony Moss t...@lindisun.demon.co.uk
To: sundial sundial@uni-koeln.de
Sent: Wed, Jun 29, 2011 3:37 am
Subject: Re: School analemmatic sundial


On 28/06/2011 16:43, Martina Addiscott wrote:



 Dear Pat,

 Thanks for contacting the Sundial Mailing List, and no doubt other
 members will also respond to your enquiry about an Analemmatic dial.



 Our local Educational Authority would not allow us to have the full-
 size version on our playground (they felt that it was too dangerous
 for the children!) - so we just made small working models, instead.


 Sincerely,

 Martina Addiscott.


Hi Martina,
My curiosity is aroused. Did they actually list any of the 'dangers' 
they anticipated in what would arguably be among the least strenuous 
activities in a school playground...after standing upright and walking 
around that is. ;-)

Regards,

Tony Moss
---
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School analemmatic sundial

[darkroom3]

 I work at a school and started an environment club last year.  As a solar 
project for the up coming school year I would like the kids to make an 
analemmatic sundial.  I am completely new to sundials and need to learn what I 
can during the summer so I can teach basics to my group of 5th graders next 
year.  The sundial will be painted on the large blacktop area.  I got 
calculations from the website 
http://www.jamesriverstudio.com/sundials/calculator/Dial.xhtml#setupAnchor

I made a small sundial in my driveway and it worked.  I do need to make 
additions for daylight saving.  I have seen two ways: a second set of hour 
points above the first set or making one hour point and have the circle for the 
hour divided in half, one half at the standard hour and the other half daylight 
saving hour.

Questions:

Has anyone used the above website?  Bill, the person that has been replying to 
email, has been very nice and helpful and recommended me joining here to get 
more information on sundials. Also the North American Sundial Society.

How big would I need to make a sundial for elementary students?  I have a very 
large area to work.

Since I am learning all this too and finding the information can be a bit 
confusing what is the simplest way to teach children?  I want them to see 
different kinds of sundials and make a small ones out of paper.

I look forward to reading the archived threads and learning what I can.

Thank you,

Pat


 


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Re: School analemmatic sundial

[Simon [illustratingshadows]

A nice dial of the kind of which you speak would be about 15 or so feet wide, 
is fun for kids, the theory may be more involved than using a horizontal dial, 
with the kids standing at a point based on their height. Either way, have fun. 
There are many web sites to look at, Carl's Sundial Primer web site is 
excellent.
 
And so is mine! www.illustratingshadows.com
 
Simon
 
Simon Wheaton-Smith
www.illustratingshadows.com
Silver City, New Mexico W108.2 N32.75 and
Phoenix, Arizona, W112.1 N33.5

--- On Tue, 6/28/11, darkro...@aol.com darkro...@aol.com wrote:


From: darkro...@aol.com darkro...@aol.com
Subject: School analemmatic sundial
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Date: Tuesday, June 28, 2011, 8:37 AM



I work at a school and started an environment club last year.  As a solar 
project for the up coming school year I would like the kids to make an 
analemmatic sundial.  I am completely new to sundials and need to learn what I 
can during the summer so I can teach basics to my group of 5th graders next 
year.  The sundial will be painted on the large blacktop area.  I got 
calculations from the website 
http://www.jamesriverstudio.com/sundials/calculator/Dial.xhtml#setupAnchor

I made a small sundial in my driveway and it worked.  I do need to make 
additions for daylight saving.  I have seen two ways: a second set of hour 
points above the first set or making one hour point and have the circle for the 
hour divided in half, one half at the standard hour and the other half daylight 
saving hour.

Questions:

Has anyone used the above website?  Bill, the person that has been replying to 
email, has been very nice and helpful and recommended me joining here to get 
more information on sundials. Also the North American Sundial Society.

How big would I need to make a sundial for elementary students?  I have a very 
large area to work.

Since I am learning all this too and finding the information can be a bit 
confusing what is the simplest way to teach children?  I want them to see 
different kinds of sundials and make a small ones out of paper.

I look forward to reading the archived threads and learning what I can.

Thank you,

Pat





-Inline Attachment Follows-


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Re: School analemmatic sundial

[Willy Leenders]

Pat,

An answer on several of your questions you can find on 
http://www.fransmaes.nl/zonnewijzers/welcome-e.htm

About the question of standard time and daylight saving time: a good 
analemmatic sundial indicates only solar time.
For standard time and daylight saving time we have a watch!
The sundial is the only simple instrument that indicates solar time.
Changing it to indicate standard time is similar to an astronomer who turns his 
device to indicate the sidereal time into a standard time clock.

Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)

Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg (Flanders) with 
a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in Dutch): 
http://www.wijzerweb.be







Op 28-jun-2011, om 16:37 heeft darkro...@aol.com het volgende geschreven:

 I work at a school and started an environment club last year.  As a solar 
 project for the up coming school year I would like the kids to make an 
 analemmatic sundial.  I am completely new to sundials and need to learn what 
 I can during the summer so I can teach basics to my group of 5th graders next 
 year.  The sundial will be painted on the large blacktop area.  I got 
 calculations from the website 
 http://www.jamesriverstudio.com/sundials/calculator/Dial.xhtml#setupAnchor
 
 I made a small sundial in my driveway and it worked.  I do need to make 
 additions for daylight saving.  I have seen two ways: a second set of hour 
 points above the first set or making one hour point and have the circle for 
 the hour divided in half, one half at the standard hour and the other half 
 daylight saving hour.
 
 Questions:
 
 Has anyone used the above website?  Bill, the person that has been replying 
 to email, has been very nice and helpful and recommended me joining here to 
 get more information on sundials. Also the North American Sundial Society.
 
 How big would I need to make a sundial for elementary students?  I have a 
 very large area to work.
 
 Since I am learning all this too and finding the information can be a bit 
 confusing what is the simplest way to teach children?  I want them to see 
 different kinds of sundials and make a small ones out of paper.
 
 I look forward to reading the archived threads and learning what I can.
 
 Thank you,
 
 Pat
 
 
 ---
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---
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Re: School analemmatic sundial

[Martina Addiscott]

In message 8ce03b8075e30e3-2654-31...@webmail-m156.sysops.aol.com
  darkro...@aol.com wrote:

 
  I work at a school and started an environment club last year.  As a solar 
 project for the up coming school year I would like the kids to make an 
 analemmatic sundial.  I am completely new to sundials and need to learn what 
 I can during the summer so I can teach basics to my group of 5th graders next 
 year.  The sundial will be painted on the large blacktop area.  I got 
 calculations from the website 
 http://www.jamesriverstudio.com/sundials/calculator/Dial.xhtml#setupAnchor
 
 I made a small sundial in my driveway and it worked.  I do need to make 
 additions for daylight saving.  I have seen two ways: a second set of hour 
 points above the first set or making one hour point and have the circle for 
 the hour divided in half, one half at the standard hour and the other half 
 daylight saving hour.
 
 Questions:
 
 Has anyone used the above website?  Bill, the person that has been replying 
 to email, has been very nice and helpful and recommended me joining here to 
 get more information on sundials. Also the North American Sundial Society.
 
 How big would I need to make a sundial for elementary students?  I have a 
 very large area to work.
 
 Since I am learning all this too and finding the information can be a bit 
 confusing what is the simplest way to teach children?  I want them to see 
 different kinds of sundials and make a small ones out of paper.
 
 I look forward to reading the archived threads and learning what I can.
 
 Thank you,
 
 Pat
 

Dear Pat,

Thanks for contacting the Sundial Mailing List, and no doubt other
members will also respond to your enquiry about an Analemmatic dial.

If you may want to do your own calculations, then a very good website
is:  http://plus.maths.org/content/os/issue11/features/sundials/index


However, if you prefer the choice between any full-size layout on the
ground and/or small working models which each child can make - then I
would recommend looking at page :  www.sunclocks.com/pics/fs-013.htm


For a fairly small fee, Modern Sunclocks will provide a customized
set of plans for your school - including any 'Daylight-saving Time',
so that you can make a schoolyard layout or just those small models.

Our local Educational Authority would not allow us to have the full-
size version on our playground (they felt that it was too dangerous
for the children!) - so we just made small working models, instead.

The plans also take Longitude into account, so that it tells correct
'clock' time, no matter where your location is within the Time-zone.


I hope that the information, above, may be of some help to you - and
please let us know how you get on (with some pictures, if possible).


Sincerely,

Martina Addiscott.


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AW: Moscow sundial and Trieste analemmatic sundial...

[Reinhold Kriegler]

Dear friends,
 
I prefer the completely different idea of the two Italian gnomonists
Paolo Albéri Auber and Aurelio Pantanali, who have written the
information right besides the analemma-line into the floor of the Piazza
della Borsa- place! No extra panel is needed and people stay long very
close to the line and do their shadow experiments. A nice long story
about this sundial can be seen in the beginning of this link
http://www.ta-dip.de/dies-und-das/schwarzes-brett.html , starting with…

I T A L I E N


Piazza della Borsa è una delle piazze principali di Trieste. Conosciuta
anche come il secondo salotto buono cittadino la piazza è stata il
centro economico della città per tutto il XIX secolo.
 
Greetings to all Analemmatic sundial fans … 
 
Reinhold Kriegler
 
 
* ** ***  * ** ***
Reinhold R. Kriegler
Lat. 53° 6' 52,6 Nord; Long. 8° 53' 52,3 Ost; 48 m ü. N.N.  GMT +1 (DST
+2)   www.ta-dip.de
 http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCoJHwzzjUfmt=18
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCoJHwzzjUfmt=18
 http://www.ta-dip.de/dies-und-das/r-e-i-n-h-o-l-d.html
http://www.ta-dip.de/dies-und-das/r-e-i-n-h-o-l-d.html
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de]
Im Auftrag von Willy Leenders
Gesendet: Freitag, 11. März 2011 12:38
An: Sundial List
Betreff: Re: Moscow sundial?
 
As Roger already noted, most of the people  stood on the label of the
month, rather than on the point on the centerline to which the label
referred.

Who knows a means by which visitors to a analemmatic  sundial stand
intuitively in the right place ?
An instruction on a information panel doesn't work.

I try it to place the labels of the month at a distance away from a
separate meridian line.
see http://www.wijzerweb.be/hasselt010A.html
 
 
Willy Leenders
Hasselt in Flanders (Belgium)
 
Visit my website about the sundials in the province of Limburg
(Flanders) with a section 'worth knowing about sundials' (mostly in
Dutch): http://www.wijzerweb.be
 
 
 
 



 
Op 10-mrt-2011, om 00:13 heeft Roger W. Sinnott het volgende geschreven:



Hi Reinhold,
 
Yes, that’s it!!  Many thanks.
 
When it was first posted, I remember a comment by someone on this list:
Most of the people  stood on the label of the month, rather than on the
point on the centerline to which the label referred.  (I’m not sure what
point the pigeons went to.)
 
Roger
 
Direct link:  http://www.youtube.com/user/AleksandrBoldyrev?gl=RU
http://www.youtube.com/user/AleksandrBoldyrev?gl=RUhl=ru hl=ru
 
 
From: Reinhold Kriegler [mailto:reinhold.krieg...@gmx.de] 
Sent: Wednesday, March 09, 2011 5:47 PM
To: 'Roger W. Sinnott'; 'Sundial List'
Subject: AW: Moscow sundial?
 
 
Dear Roger,
 
it might well be you are looking for the very beautiful
sundial-YouTube-film which you can easily find within this link:
 
http://www.ta-dip.de/sonnenuhren/sonnenuhren-von-freunden/r-u-s-s-l-a-n-
d/aleksandr-w-boldyrev.html
 
Have a look!
The beautiful young Russian women enjoy this sundial, made by Aleksandr
W Boldyrev as well as the pigeons and the little children… and some men!
Enjoy!
 
Best regards!
Reinhold Kriegler




* ** ***  * ** ***
 
Reinhold R. Kriegler
 
Lat. 53° 6' 52,6 Nord; Long. 8° 53' 52,3 Ost; 48 m ü. N.N.  GMT +1 (DST
+2)   www.ta-dip.de
 
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCoJHwzzjU
http://de.youtube.com/watch?v=XyCoJHwzzjUfmt=18 fmt=18
 
http://www.ta-dip.de/dies-und-das/r-e-i-n-h-o-l-d.html
 
 
-Ursprüngliche Nachricht-
Von: sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de [mailto:sundial-boun...@uni-koeln.de]
Im Auftrag von Roger W. Sinnott
Gesendet: Mittwoch, 9. März 2011 22:44
An: 'Sundial List'
Betreff: Moscow sundial?
 
All,
 
I am trying to find a YouTube video that was linked to from this list
several years ago.
 
It shows a large analemmatic sundial located in a public park in Moscow
(I
think).  Various passersby tried to figure out how it worked, where to
stand, etc., and it was pretty funny.  This could not have been before
2005,
the year YouTube started.
 
Anyone have the link?
 
Roger
 
 
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Re: Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial: Progress and a few questions

[Alex Ware]

Just a quick email,
I've added descriptions to the photos.
I also managed to not forward this to the list, so I'm doing that now.

I've got the grooves cut in the top piece and I'm going to join them
tomorrow.
I'm going to cut the top disk to have a radius of 8cm, although that comes
fairly close
to the gnomon- it still leaves a reasonable clearance.

I should have some pictures of the constructed dial tomorrow if all goes to
plan, although I've
got to work on it after work. And then I'll put the hour lines and the date
marks on the dials on
Monday.

Many Thanks,
Alex

On 10/11/08, Alex Ware
[EMAIL PROTECTED][EMAIL PROTECTED]
wrote:

 Thanks,
 As you said, p is the straight bar piece(0979), and q is the round one. The
 channels will cross, the piece of wood in 0967 is just a quick lash up to
 see how the sliders work in grooves and if the wood was strong enough to
 have two channels cut in it.

 Sorry for the brief response, I've got to go to work in 5 minutes- I'll
 post individual descriptions of each image when I get home.

 Many thanks,
 Alex

 On 10/11/08, Chris Lusby Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

  Hi Alex,
 You've gone slightly wrong, I think. On Hendrik's diagrams R is the total
 length of the rod or disk from the fixed point to the gnomon. You say you
 want this to be 12cm. So R=12cm. This is made up of C, the distance between
 the sliders, and D, from the East-West slider to the gnomon.
 So:
  R=C+D
  D=R.sin(latitude)

 You said you are at 50.7 degrees North, so if R=12 then D=9.28 and C=2.72.
 Also, the total length of the date scale is 6.6cm.

 The uppermost disk (with the date scale) moves north-south by 2C=5.44cm. So
 its diameter must be greater than this and greater than 6.6cm but must be
 less than 2D.

 I'm not at all sure I can interpret your photographs correctly. Can you
 explain them please?
 Your two plugs p and q look different. That's fine. Is the long one the
 fixed north-south one (p) at the centre of the disk that has the gnomon
 attached? Is the round one q?
 The two channels/tracks must allow both plugs p and q to slide across the
 middle of the disk. So they must cross in the same plane, as in Hendrick's
 photo. I'm not clear from your photos how they are constructed, but it seems
 that each channel will have to have two parts - one each side of the centre.
 So the plugs will both have to be long enough to bridge the gap
 comfortably.
 What does your photo IMG_0967 show? Is it the two channels crossing? If
 so, I think it is wrong. Only one of the plugs can cross the centre. Also,
 the two channels should be attached to the underside of the uppermost (date
 scale) disk. So I think I must not be understanding your photographs. Sorry.

 Best wishes
 Chris





 - Original Message -
  *From:* Alex Ware [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* sundial@uni-koeln.de
 *Sent:* Friday, October 10, 2008 8:27 PM
 *Subject:* Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial: Progress and a few questions

 Hi again,
 I've started construction on my sundial, and have a couple of questions.
 But first, some pictures of its current state :)
 http://www.zooomr.com/photos/axelw/sets/38718/
 (quick note:
 http://www.analemma.nl/homogeneous%20analemmatic%20sundials%20v2.1%20pdf.pdfby
  Hendrik Hollander is the document I've been working from)
 The outer disk has a radius of about 16.5cm and the inner disk is just shy
 of 14cm.
 I've (with help from my grandfather) made the mechanism for the inner
 disk,
 a metal bar (to have a length  C) and a ball-run for the pivot at C.

 Currently, my only problem with the design is trying to work out a
 suitable value for R.
 I'm planning on having my gnomon 12cm away from the centre, and am unsure
 of a value of R  to use:
 I assume that as R+C12 and 2R-Rsin5212 - R(2-sin52)12 thus: 12 / (2 -
 sin(52)) = 9.9cm giving me
 a value of C that's about 2.1cm

 Many thanks,
 Alex

 P.s. With C about 2cm, are the tracks and sliders too big, and does anyone
 have any suggestions for joining the tracks?
 http://www.zooomr.com/z/photos/zoom/6056301/size-16/


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Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial: Progress and a few questions

[Alex Ware]

Hi again,
I've started construction on my sundial, and have a couple of questions.
But first, some pictures of its current state :)
http://www.zooomr.com/photos/axelw/sets/38718/
(quick note:
http://www.analemma.nl/homogeneous%20analemmatic%20sundials%20v2.1%20pdf.pdfby
Hendrik Hollander is the document I've been working from)
The outer disk has a radius of about 16.5cm and the inner disk is just shy
of 14cm.
I've (with help from my grandfather) made the mechanism for the inner disk,
a metal bar (to have a length  C) and a ball-run for the pivot at C.

Currently, my only problem with the design is trying to work out a suitable
value for R.
I'm planning on having my gnomon 12cm away from the centre, and am unsure of
a value of R  to use:
I assume that as R+C12 and 2R-Rsin5212 - R(2-sin52)12 thus: 12 / (2 -
sin(52)) = 9.9cm giving me
a value of C that's about 2.1cm

Many thanks,
Alex

P.s. With C about 2cm, are the tracks and sliders too big, and does anyone
have any suggestions for joining the tracks?
http://www.zooomr.com/z/photos/zoom/6056301/size-16/
---
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Re: Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial: Progress and a few questions

[Chris Lusby Taylor]

Hi Alex,
You've gone slightly wrong, I think. On Hendrik's diagrams R is the total 
length of the rod or disk from the fixed point to the gnomon. You say you want 
this to be 12cm. So R=12cm. This is made up of C, the distance between the 
sliders, and D, from the East-West slider to the gnomon.
So:
 R=C+D
 D=R.sin(latitude)

You said you are at 50.7 degrees North, so if R=12 then D=9.28 and C=2.72. 
Also, the total length of the date scale is 6.6cm.

The uppermost disk (with the date scale) moves north-south by 2C=5.44cm. So its 
diameter must be greater than this and greater than 6.6cm but must be less than 
2D.

I'm not at all sure I can interpret your photographs correctly. Can you explain 
them please?
Your two plugs p and q look different. That's fine. Is the long one the fixed 
north-south one (p) at the centre of the disk that has the gnomon attached? Is 
the round one q?
The two channels/tracks must allow both plugs p and q to slide across the 
middle of the disk. So they must cross in the same plane, as in Hendrick's 
photo. I'm not clear from your photos how they are constructed, but it seems 
that each channel will have to have two parts - one each side of the centre.
So the plugs will both have to be long enough to bridge the gap comfortably.
What does your photo IMG_0967 show? Is it the two channels crossing? If so, I 
think it is wrong. Only one of the plugs can cross the centre. Also, the two 
channels should be attached to the underside of the uppermost (date scale) 
disk. So I think I must not be understanding your photographs. Sorry.

Best wishes
Chris




  - Original Message - 
  From: Alex Ware 
  To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
  Sent: Friday, October 10, 2008 8:27 PM
  Subject: Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial: Progress and a few questions


  Hi again,
  I've started construction on my sundial, and have a couple of questions.
  But first, some pictures of its current state :)
  http://www.zooomr.com/photos/axelw/sets/38718/
  (quick note: 
http://www.analemma.nl/homogeneous%20analemmatic%20sundials%20v2.1%20pdf.pdf by 
Hendrik Hollander is the document I've been working from)
  The outer disk has a radius of about 16.5cm and the inner disk is just shy of 
14cm. 
  I've (with help from my grandfather) made the mechanism for the inner disk,
  a metal bar (to have a length  C) and a ball-run for the pivot at C. 

  Currently, my only problem with the design is trying to work out a suitable 
value for R. 
  I'm planning on having my gnomon 12cm away from the centre, and am unsure of 
a value of R  to use: 
  I assume that as R+C12 and 2R-Rsin5212 - R(2-sin52)12 thus: 12 / (2 - 
sin(52)) = 9.9cm giving me 
  a value of C that's about 2.1cm

  Many thanks, 
  Alex

  P.s. With C about 2cm, are the tracks and sliders too big, and does anyone 
have any suggestions for joining the tracks? 
  http://www.zooomr.com/z/photos/zoom/6056301/size-16/





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Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial

[Analemma Zonnewijzers]

Hi Alex,

How nice that you will make this sundial. Keep us posted on the result.

I have posted a photo of the closed and open demo I made of this sundial.

www.analemma.nl/H_A_Sundial_open.jpg
www.analemma.nl/H_A_Sundial_closed.jpg

The black strip which keeps the center ring in the north-south position is made 
of plastic. It is connected to the backside of the sundial. The backside is 
fixed to the north. The (blue) cirkel with the pivot can be rotated while the 
blach strip stays fixed to the north.

I have posted the artikels on:
http://www.shop.analemma.nl/N_frame.html?http://www.shop.analemma.nl/N_home.html
(and choose publicatie)

You will also find a small movie of the sundial which demostrates the movements.

kind regards,
Hendrik Hollander


-
Analemma Zonnewijzers
Hendrik J Hollander
tel: 020-637 43 83
mobiel 06 16 462 879
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.analemma.nl
nb 52 23' ol 4 57' 
-
lees de maildisclaimer http://www.analemma.nl/maildisclaimer.htm
-


  - Original Message - 
  From: Alex Ware 
  To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
  Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:40 PM
  Subject: Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial


  -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
  Hash: SHA1

  Hi,
  I've been reading the postings about the homogeneous analemmatic
  sundial and wish
  to create one as part of a piece of work for school (admittedly, this is 
beyond
  what is asked- I'm just fascinated by these sundials and want to try
  my hand at a
  more obscure design).

  http://www.analemma.nl/homogeneous%20analemmatic%20sundials%20v2.1%20pdf.pdf
  and http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl/zw-arch/eng-home-zw-08-06.htm

  I'm having some trouble figuring out how the two trenches and the pivots p 
and q
  cause the center ring to be displaced on one dimension only instead of causing
  the whole ring to rotate.

  If anyone would be so kind as to point me to any further reading for this type
  of dial- or help explain how this works (and any other advice) it would be
  greatly appreciated.

  Many Thanks,
  Alex Ware


  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
  Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
  Comment: http://getfiregpg.org

  iEYEARECAAYFAkjlI7UACgkQwTJKNkPO7HTJYgCfW7m5UNMOF2wyDYgXseKkT2JP
  avwAniyaMBFXOTxj41LAy5zLdY+gdylP
  =c76/
  -END PGP SIGNATURE-





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Re: Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial

[Alex Ware]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Thanks for your help,
I think I've got a pretty good idea on how I'm going to make this now.
I've just got to work through the maths and start construction of the dial.
I'll post again if I run into any difficulties and with some pictures
of how it's coming along.

Many Thanks,
Alex Ware

P.S. I just spotted your ingenious use of foam board in making this,
I'll probably do something similar unless I can get hold
of some perspex.


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: http://getfiregpg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkjmaJgACgkQwTJKNkPO7HTWuQCeIkzYudMsOzaMq20H0YkcjAmQ
ZdQAoIvz/FGrAVqW5/u1LHctsbD5NGa2
=Jprn
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
On Fri, Oct 3, 2008 at 8:46 AM, Hendrik Hollander [EMAIL PROTECTED]wrote:

  Hi Alex,

 How nice that you will make this sundial. Keep us posted on the result.

 I have posted a photo of the closed and open demo I made of this sundial.

 www.analemma.nl/H_A_Sundial_open.jpg
  www.analemma.nl/H_A_Sundial_closed.jpg

 The black strip which keeps the center ring in the north-south position is
 made of plastic. It is connected to the backside of the sundial. The
 backside is fixed to the north. The (blue) cirkel with the pivot can be
 rotated while the blach strip stays fixed to the north.

 I have posted the artikels on:

 http://www.shop.analemma.nl/N_frame.html?http://www.shop.analemma.nl/N_home.html
 (and choose publicatie)

 You will also find a small movie of the sundial which demostrates the
 movements.

 kind regards,
 Hendrik Hollander


 -
 Analemma Zonnewijzers
 Hendrik J Hollander
 tel: 020-637 43 83
 mobiel 06 16 462 879
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 www.analemma.nl
 nb 52 23' ol 4 57'
 -
 lees de maildisclaimer http://www.analemma.nl/maildisclaimer.htm
 -


 - Original Message -
 *From:* Alex Ware [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* sundial@uni-koeln.de
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 02, 2008 9:40 PM
 *Subject:* Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi,
 I've been reading the postings about the homogeneous analemmatic
 sundial and wish
 to create one as part of a piece of work for school (admittedly, this is
 beyond
 what is asked- I'm just fascinated by these sundials and want to try
 my hand at a
 more obscure design).


 http://www.analemma.nl/homogeneous%20analemmatic%20sundials%20v2.1%20pdf.pdf
 and http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl/zw-arch/eng-home-zw-08-06.htm

 I'm having some trouble figuring out how the two trenches and the pivots p
 and q
 cause the center ring to be displaced on one dimension only instead of
 causing
 the whole ring to rotate.

 If anyone would be so kind as to point me to any further reading for this
 type
 of dial- or help explain how this works (and any other advice) it would be
 greatly appreciated.

 Many Thanks,
 Alex Ware


 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: http://getfiregpg.org

 iEYEARECAAYFAkjlI7UACgkQwTJKNkPO7HTJYgCfW7m5UNMOF2wyDYgXseKkT2JP
 avwAniyaMBFXOTxj41LAy5zLdY+gdylP
 =c76/
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-


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 ---
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial


---
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Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial

[Alex Ware]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

Hi,
I've been reading the postings about the homogeneous analemmatic
sundial and wish
to create one as part of a piece of work for school (admittedly, this is
beyond
what is asked- I'm just fascinated by these sundials and want to try
my hand at a
more obscure design).

http://www.analemma.nl/homogeneous%20analemmatic%20sundials%20v2.1%20pdf.pdf
and http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl/zw-arch/eng-home-zw-08-06.htm

I'm having some trouble figuring out how the two trenches and the pivots p
and q
cause the center ring to be displaced on one dimension only instead of
causing
the whole ring to rotate.

If anyone would be so kind as to point me to any further reading for this
type
of dial- or help explain how this works (and any other advice) it would be
greatly appreciated.

Many Thanks,
Alex Ware


-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: http://getfiregpg.org

iEYEARECAAYFAkjlI7UACgkQwTJKNkPO7HTJYgCfW7m5UNMOF2wyDYgXseKkT2JP
avwAniyaMBFXOTxj41LAy5zLdY+gdylP
=c76/
-END PGP SIGNATURE-
---
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Re: Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial

[Chris Lusby Taylor]

Hi Alex,
Congratulations on taking up this challenge. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

The diagrams on the de-zonnewijzerkring.nl site don't fully explain the 
mechanism.
It is based on the trammel of Archimedes which is used to draw ellipses. 
Normally, the grooves are fixed and the rod moves, with two points on it (p and 
q) constrained to slide in the two grooves. The sundial, on the other hand, 
fixes the end point p, forcing the other groove to move up and down as the rod 
rotates. What is not explained is that the grooved piece (the grey disk) must 
still be constrained somehow to stop it rotating. It must only move up and 
down. This could be done by putting a more fixed plugs in the vertical groove, 
above and below p.

In practice, you should make the grey disk bigger than shown if you are nearer 
the equator than the Netherlands (about 50 degrees North) since the sliding 
distance C needed gets greater as you approach the equator. Note that, in the 
Tropics, the date scale needs to slide so far it actually obstructs the gnomon, 
so you would have to modify the mechanism if you live in the Tropics.
The dial can be adjusted for any longitude or time zone simply by rotating the 
time scale. To adjust for a different latitude, you'd have to make the lengths 
C and D adjustable. That seems quite feasible to me, though perhaps a bit 
fiddly. 

Good luck with realising this fascinating dial

Chris Lusby Taylor
51.4N 1.3W



- Original Message - 
  From: Alex Ware 
  To: sundial@uni-koeln.de 
  Sent: Thursday, October 02, 2008 8:40 PM
  Subject: Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial


  -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
  Hash: SHA1

  Hi,
  I've been reading the postings about the homogeneous analemmatic
  sundial and wish
  to create one as part of a piece of work for school (admittedly, this is 
beyond
  what is asked- I'm just fascinated by these sundials and want to try
  my hand at a
  more obscure design).

  http://www.analemma.nl/homogeneous%20analemmatic%20sundials%20v2.1%20pdf.pdf
  and http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl/zw-arch/eng-home-zw-08-06.htm

  I'm having some trouble figuring out how the two trenches and the pivots p 
and q
  cause the center ring to be displaced on one dimension only instead of causing
  the whole ring to rotate.

  If anyone would be so kind as to point me to any further reading for this type
  of dial- or help explain how this works (and any other advice) it would be
  greatly appreciated.

  Many Thanks,
  Alex Ware


  -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
  Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
  Comment: http://getfiregpg.org

  iEYEARECAAYFAkjlI7UACgkQwTJKNkPO7HTJYgCfW7m5UNMOF2wyDYgXseKkT2JP
  avwAniyaMBFXOTxj41LAy5zLdY+gdylP
  =c76/
  -END PGP SIGNATURE-





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Re: Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial

[Alex Ware]

Sorry I neglected to mention my latitude; I'm about 50.7N- so the distance C
mentioned will be approximately the same as for the article.
I had a quick search for the trammel of Archimedes and found this:
http://www.ps.missouri.edu/rickspage/vector06/index.html and it
seems that this allows the dial to work as an analemmatic dial in a clever
way.

I presume I can make the dial out of wood or perspex and use some kind of
bearings for the pivots?

Many Thanks,
Alex Ware

On Thu, Oct 2, 2008 at 10:54 PM, Chris Lusby Taylor wrote:

  Hi Alex,
 Congratulations on taking up this challenge. I'm sure you'll enjoy it.

 The diagrams on the de-zonnewijzerkring.nl site don't fully explain the
 mechanism.
 It is based on the trammel of Archimedes which is used to draw ellipses.
 Normally, the grooves are fixed and the rod moves, with two points on it (p
 and q) constrained to slide in the two grooves. The sundial, on the other
 hand, fixes the end point p, forcing the other groove to move up and down as
 the rod rotates. What is not explained is that the grooved piece (the grey
 disk) must still be constrained somehow to stop it rotating. It must only
 move up and down. This could be done by putting a more fixed plugs in the
 vertical groove, above and below p.

 In practice, you should make the grey disk bigger than shown if you are
 nearer the equator than the Netherlands (about 50 degrees North) since the
 sliding distance C needed gets greater as you approach the equator. Note
 that, in the Tropics, the date scale needs to slide so far it actually
 obstructs the gnomon, so you would have to modify the mechanism if you live
 in the Tropics.
 The dial can be adjusted for any longitude or time zone simply by rotating
 the time scale. To adjust for a different latitude, you'd have to make the
 lengths C and D adjustable. That seems quite feasible to me, though perhaps
 a bit fiddly.

 Good luck with realising this fascinating dial

 Chris Lusby Taylor
 51.4N 1.3W



 - Original Message -

  *From:* Alex Ware [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 *To:* sundial@uni-koeln.de
 *Sent:* Thursday, October 02, 2008 8:40 PM
 *Subject:* Homogeneous Analemmatic Sundial

 -BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
 Hash: SHA1

 Hi,
 I've been reading the postings about the homogeneous analemmatic
 sundial and wish
 to create one as part of a piece of work for school (admittedly, this is
 beyond
 what is asked- I'm just fascinated by these sundials and want to try
 my hand at a
 more obscure design).


 http://www.analemma.nl/homogeneous%20analemmatic%20sundials%20v2.1%20pdf.pdf
 and http://www.de-zonnewijzerkring.nl/zw-arch/eng-home-zw-08-06.htm

 I'm having some trouble figuring out how the two trenches and the pivots p
 and q
 cause the center ring to be displaced on one dimension only instead of
 causing
 the whole ring to rotate.

 If anyone would be so kind as to point me to any further reading for this
 type
 of dial- or help explain how this works (and any other advice) it would be
 greatly appreciated.

 Many Thanks,
 Alex Ware


 -BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
 Version: GnuPG v1.4.9 (GNU/Linux)
 Comment: http://getfiregpg.org

 iEYEARECAAYFAkjlI7UACgkQwTJKNkPO7HTJYgCfW7m5UNMOF2wyDYgXseKkT2JP
 avwAniyaMBFXOTxj41LAy5zLdY+gdylP
 =c76/
 -END PGP SIGNATURE-


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 ---
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Fwd: analemmatic sundial in Highland Park, IL, Help needed

[John Shepherd]

I just received this email and thought I would forward it to the group. 
I was on the tour mentioned but we covered a lot of ground and saw a 
lot of sundials that day.


Cheers,

John


Begin forwarded message:


From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Date: August 18, 2008 6:59:54 PM CDT
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Subject: analemmatic sundial in Highland Park, IL


Dear Mr. Shepherd,
 
It was nice speaking with you today.  I found an email in my dad's 
file from you from 1997.  I also saw the society's visit to the 
sundial referenced on the Village's website.    About Time

 
I am the daughter of the late Jerome V Man who designed and created 
the analemmatic sundial in Highland Park, Illinois.  I saw online that 
40 members of your society visited the sundial in 1997.  I saw this 
referenced on the Village of Highland Park, Illinois website.

 
I wanted to inform you that after being in storage for 2 years, the 
sundial is being reinstalled 1 block north of its former site:  the NW 
corner of Central and St. Johns Avenue, in Highland Park, IL.  It is 
now located at the SW corner of St. Johns Avenue and Elm in Highland 
Park, IL.  It should be fully reinstalled by the end of August 2008 
(except for additional landscaping).

 
The sundial was created in 1976 for the Bicentennial and will be 32 
years old this month!  I anticipate a rededication (this could even be 
a 1st dedication based on newspaper articles my dad saved and I am 
reading).  I am meeting with the local newspaper next week and have 
been in contact with the Village.

 
Is there anyone who was part of the trip in 1997 that could tell me 
anything interesting from their visit? 

 
Could you please update your information for the Society, including 
the new location of the analemmatic sundial?

 
Would anyone like to be present at the rededication of the sundial?  
At this time I do not know when it will be scheduled however I can 
keep you informed.

 
I look forward to hearing back from you.
Respectfully,
 
Tina Man,
[EMAIL PROTECTED]



Here's another link.


 AnalemMatic Dial
 



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Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Frans W. Maes]

Dear John,

Do you think Mr. Phillips really is willing to go along with such an 
idea? If so, I have been considering the options a bit further.

The explanation in Karl Schwarzinger's webpage has January outermost and 
December innermost. For a human shadowcaster, it would be easier to have 
June innermost, as his/her shadow will be short. Next May + July, which 
see about the same solar declination, then April + August, etc. The 
spacing of the month rings can be adapted to the average person's shadow 
length in that month. You might stop at March + September, as there is 
not much going on in the remaining months, according to the Year 
Calender in the Estate's website (http://www.kentwell.co.uk/).

The type of pavement/planting may limit the accuracy of reading. If one 
does not care about high precision, one could average the azimuth values 
of two months (like May and July) and use this single value.

The placement of the month names is free. They could be aligned with the 
main driveway, thereby fulfilling another of Mr. Phillips' requirements.

We still have the wish/requirement for scales having the hour points at 
the south side. This could be met by reversing the lay-out, as follows: 
Rotate the rings by 180 degrees. The person walks the ring for the 
present month until his/her shadow points at the center spot/post. Then 
he/she reads the time from his/her position. This makes the dial even 
more 'interactive' than the usual analemmatic dial!

What do you think?

Best regards,
Frans Maes

[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 YES!!!  Why didn't any of us think of this?
 John
 
 
 --- On Sat, 28/6/08, Frans W. Maes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 
 From: Frans W. Maes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
 To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de
 Date: Saturday, 28 June, 2008, 9:51 PM
 Dear John,

 What you describe resembles an azimuth sundial. See for
 instance the 
 Plochingen sundial in Karl Schwarzinger's collection:
 http://members.aon.at/sundials/bild44_e.htm
 In this case, there would be no clear-cut alignment with
 anything, 
 including the (in)famous path...

 Best regards,
 Frans
 www.fransmaes.nl/sundials

---
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Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[jlynes]

Dear Frans,

I happily endorse all your suggested improvements.  I'd add the possibility of 
using 3M's retro-reflective material, as on traffic signs, on the hour-markers 
or, if the layout is reversed on the centre-post.

I just hope Mr Phillips appreciates all the hard thinking we've done on his 
behalf.

John Lynes


--- On Mon, 7/7/08, Frans W. Maes [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 Dear John,
 
 Do you think Mr. Phillips really is willing to go along
 with such an 
 idea? If so, I have been considering the options a bit
 further.
 
 The explanation in Karl Schwarzinger's webpage has
 January outermost and 
 December innermost. For a human shadowcaster, it would be
 easier to have 
 June innermost, as his/her shadow will be short. Next May +
 July, which 
 see about the same solar declination, then April + August,
 etc. The 
 spacing of the month rings can be adapted to the average
 person's shadow 
 length in that month. You might stop at March + September,
 as there is 
 not much going on in the remaining months, according to the
 Year 
 Calender in the Estate's website
 (http://www.kentwell.co.uk/).
 
 The type of pavement/planting may limit the accuracy of
 reading. If one 
 does not care about high precision, one could average the
 azimuth values 
 of two months (like May and July) and use this single
 value.
 
 The placement of the month names is free. They could be
 aligned with the 
 main driveway, thereby fulfilling another of Mr.
 Phillips' requirements.
 
 We still have the wish/requirement for scales having the
 hour points at 
 the south side. This could be met by reversing the lay-out,
 as follows: 
 Rotate the rings by 180 degrees. The person walks the ring
 for the 
 present month until his/her shadow points at the center
 spot/post. Then 
 he/she reads the time from his/her position. This makes the
 dial even 
 more 'interactive' than the usual analemmatic dial!
 
 What do you think?
 
 Best regards,
 Frans Maes
 
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  YES!!!  Why didn't any of us think of this?
  John
  
  
  --- On Sat, 28/6/08, Frans W. Maes
 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
  
  From: Frans W. Maes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Subject: Re: Advice wanted, on
 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
  To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  Cc: sundial@uni-koeln.de
  Date: Saturday, 28 June, 2008, 9:51 PM
  Dear John,
 
  What you describe resembles an azimuth sundial.
 See for
  instance the 
  Plochingen sundial in Karl Schwarzinger's
 collection:
  http://members.aon.at/sundials/bild44_e.htm
  In this case, there would be no clear-cut
 alignment with
  anything, 
  including the (in)famous path...
 
  Best regards,
  Frans
  www.fransmaes.nl/sundials

---
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Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[jlynes]

Forgive me, for returning with yet another tiresome proposal:

On reflection I suspect Mr Phillips may not be totally wrong-headed.  On any 
one day the azimuth of the shadow of a static human shadow-caster can be marked 
by a circular arc of hour-marks or indeed by hour-marks fixed along two 
straight lines parallel to Mr Phillips' driveway.

This arrangement would be accurate on only two days each year.  But it would be 
a simple matter to move all the hour-marks (except the noon-marker) say once a 
week, or less frequently at the solstices when Kentwell Hall might be busiest.  
Anyone on this mailing list could print off the necessary page of solar 
azimuths, or preferably shadow azimuths, at weekly intervals.

So I would envisage a single spot, perhaps in the middle of a decorative 
compass rose, for the shadow caster to stand on.  The human gnomon might be at 
the centre of a circle of, say, 360 identical bricks, at 1-degree intervals.  
The print-out would tell Mr Phillips which brick should hold each hour-mark for 
the current week; it could painlessly incorporate the equation of time and 
daylight saving.

No self-respecting diallist could be happy with this proposal, but it does seem 
to meet most of Mr Phillips' criteria for a human sundial, albeit no longer 
analemmatic.

John Lynes


  -Original Message-From:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Dear Sundial Experts,
  I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope
 that any members will
 be
  able to give me some assistance on the following
 situation.
  Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall,
 Long Melford, Suffolk) is
  considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a
 new interactive
  attraction for visitors - but we are getting
 'conflicting' advice, on
  whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the
 way we want it to. We have
  been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks
 (apparently the acknowledged
  'experts' for these features), who have told
 us that its central scale of
  dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour
 markers must be
 correctly
  positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie
 on the Northern side
  of that scale of dates.
  Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com )
 confirm this.
  However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr
 Phillips) absolutelyINSISTS that
  he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with
 ourmain driveway - on a
  compass bearing which is about 162 degreesfrom North,
 with the hour points
  placed on its Southern side.He also wants the hour
 points to form an exact
  semi-circle, andnot be elliptical in shape. Mr
 Phillips refuses to accept
  thathe cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial
 feature as hewishes,
  and says that it must be possible to create this so
 thatit could then
 align
  with the existing layout of buildings/paths.
  Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is
 possible toinstall a
  Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations,
 (withappropriate
  re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if
 not,just confirm that it
  must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me.
  I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr
 Phillips. BecauseKentwell
  Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the
 public),we should not want
  to become a 'laughing stock' by installing
 afeature which does not work -
  despite Mr Phillips assurance thatall types of
 sundial can be adjusted to
  work, in any location.
  Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent
 privately).
  Sincerely, Alison Shields.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Frans W. Maes]

Dear John,

What you describe resembles an azimuth sundial. See for instance the 
Plochingen sundial in Karl Schwarzinger's collection:
http://members.aon.at/sundials/bild44_e.htm
In this case, there would be no clear-cut alignment with anything, 
including the (in)famous path...

Best regards,
Frans
www.fransmaes.nl/sundials


[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Forgive me, for returning with yet another tiresome proposal:
 
 On reflection I suspect Mr Phillips may not be totally wrong-headed.
 On any one day the azimuth of the shadow of a static human
 shadow-caster can be marked by a circular arc of hour-marks or indeed
 by hour-marks fixed along two straight lines parallel to Mr Phillips'
 driveway.
 
 This arrangement would be accurate on only two days each year.  But
 it would be a simple matter to move all the hour-marks (except the
 noon-marker) say once a week, or less frequently at the solstices
 when Kentwell Hall might be busiest.  Anyone on this mailing list
 could print off the necessary page of solar azimuths, or preferably
 shadow azimuths, at weekly intervals.
 
 So I would envisage a single spot, perhaps in the middle of a
 decorative compass rose, for the shadow caster to stand on.  The
 human gnomon might be at the centre of a circle of, say, 360
 identical bricks, at 1-degree intervals.  The print-out would tell Mr
 Phillips which brick should hold each hour-mark for the current week;
 it could painlessly incorporate the equation of time and daylight
 saving.
 
 No self-respecting diallist could be happy with this proposal, but it
 does seem to meet most of Mr Phillips' criteria for a human sundial,
 albeit no longer analemmatic.
 
 John Lynes
 
 
 -Original Message-From:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
 Dear Sundial Experts, I have recently joined this Mailing List,
 and hope
 that any members will be
 able to give me some assistance on the following
 situation.
 Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall,
 Long Melford, Suffolk) is
 considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a
 new interactive
 attraction for visitors - but we are getting
 'conflicting' advice, on
 whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the
 way we want it to. We have
 been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks
 (apparently the acknowledged
 'experts' for these features), who have told
 us that its central scale of
 dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour
 markers must be correctly
 positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie
 on the Northern side
 of that scale of dates. Photographs on their website (
 www.sunclocks.com )
 confirm this.
 However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr
 Phillips) absolutelyINSISTS that
 he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with
 ourmain driveway - on a
 compass bearing which is about 162 degreesfrom North,
 with the hour points
 placed on its Southern side.He also wants the hour
 points to form an exact
 semi-circle, andnot be elliptical in shape. Mr
 Phillips refuses to accept
 thathe cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial
 feature as hewishes,
 and says that it must be possible to create this so
 thatit could then align
 with the existing layout of buildings/paths. Can anyone on this
 Mailing List tell me whether it is
 possible toinstall a
 Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations,
 (withappropriate
 re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if
 not,just confirm that it
 must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me. I can then show the
 'weight of evidence' to Mr
 Phillips. BecauseKentwell
 Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the
 public),we should not want
 to become a 'laughing stock' by installing
 afeature which does not work -
 despite Mr Phillips assurance thatall types of
 sundial can be adjusted to
 work, in any location. Looking forward to all comments (to this
 List, or sent
 privately).
 Sincerely, Alison Shields.
 
 --- 
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial
 
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Chris Lusby Taylor]

I have now proved arithmetically (to my own satisfaction at least) that
there is no dial shape that works like an analemmatic dial but with the
azimuth halved.

I did this by calculating how far the gnomon would have to move at 2pm
between the solstices and the equinoxes, and comparing these figures with
4pm (for some arbitrary latitude). The ratios are different, implying that
wherever you put a vertical gnomon on these three dates you could not
position both a 2pm and a 4pm marker. For a normal analemmatic dial the
ratios are all 1, i.e. the distance you move the gnomon from winter to
spring = the distance you move it from spring to summer, for all hours of
the day.

Too bad. But I like the 2:1 gearing idea. Mechanisms to do this are very
simple - the top of a pair of compasses is an example.

Chris Lusby Taylor
51.4N 1.3W


- Original Message - 
From: Chris Lusby Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sundial@uni-koeln.de
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 7:01 PM
Subject: Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation


 Very neat John!

 But I don't think it works. Not even if south-facing.

 The problem is that you are halving the angle through which you turn the
 dial. That affects the geometry of the elliptical dial. You can't just
 renumber the hour marks. The sun's azimuth (measured from south) at 2pm is
 not twice the azimuth at 1pm.
 So, I'm pretty sure you can't just take an analemmatic ellipse, reverse
and
 renumber the hours. But maybe there is a shape, perhaps a different
ellipse,
 that would work. You might well have to change the date scale as well.

 If you can find a shape that works, I have some good news: the hour marks
 are unchanged by the realignment of the axis from north-south. Imagine,
for
 instance, that the path went east-west. The mirror would be at 45 degrees
to
 the axes of the dial. The rotation of the mirror (and dial) to follow the
 sun would be precisely the same as it would for a north-south path, so the
 hour marks would still have 12 in the middle and all other angles as
before.

 Actually, rather than having the mirror at 45 degrees to the dial's axes
and
 a north or south pointer to read the time, you could align the dial with
the
 mirror and turn the pointer 45 degrees. Or, you could have the pointer
 mounted with the mirror and the dial on the ground in a fixed orientation
 (such as parallel to the infamous path), but able to be slid along its
minor
 axis according to the date.
 The possibilities are almost endless. Or, they would be if we could find a
 dial shape that would work!

 But finding a shape that will function as a dial (or even proving that one
 exists) will take a little longer than the spare time I have today. Sorry.
 If anyone else wants to try it, I suggest tracing the hourly azimuth lines
 for the equinoxes overlaid with the same lines for one of the solstices,
 assuming the gnomon has moved by some arbitrary distance in the meantime.
 Find the dial shape that would work for both dates (there will probably be
 one) and see if it will work for all other dates.

 Best wishes
 Chris Lusby Taylor


 - Original Message - 
 From: John Lynes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
 Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:46 PM
 Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation


 I'm grateful for the generous reception you gave to my last contribution
to
 this thread.  Here belatedly is another possible solution, less
impractical
 but more complex than my last effort.

 Imagine a North-South meridian line on flat ground.  On this line place a
 thin flat vertical mirror - essentially a vertical reflective slit - a few
 feet above the ground and pivoted to rotate about a vertical axis through
 the mirror and the meridian.  When the sun shines, a visitor is asked to
 turn the mirrored slit so that the sun's reflection falls along the
meridian
 line.

 Straight below the slit, locked to the same vertical axis, is a small
 horizontal analemmatic sundial, a few inches across, placed so that the
axis
 of rotation of the assembly coincides with the calendar date-point on the
 analemmatic dial, and the major axis of the analemmatic dial's ellipse is
 parallel to the plane of the mirror.  The direction of the meridian line
 indicates the solar time on the (modified, see below) face of the
 analemmatic dial.

 The azimuth of the mirror, measured from the meridian, would be only half
 the azimuth of the sun, so the hour markings on the analemmatic dial would
 need adjusting, e.g. the 1pm mark would be relabelled 2pm (sorry, 10.am).
 They would run anti-clockwise, and would of course be reversed from north
to
 south.

 A groundsman would have to keep the mirror polished, and realign the
 date-point with the axis of rotation perhaps once a week.  He might fix a
 different dial for daylight saving.

 Now comes the nifty bit!  Mr Phillips is not forced to accept a
North-South
 meridian line.  He could commission a line parallel

Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[jlynes]

Sorry, folks.  As always, Chris Lusby Taylor is right.  And as usual I have egg 
on my face.  I guess it’s a privilege to be mentored by such a precise and 
patient authority.

Back to the drawing board.  Here’s my next proposal:

Lay out a conventional analemmatic sundial turned through 180 degrees, i.e. 
with the noon marker to the south of the calendar line.  Surround the sundial 
with a circular path, separated from the sundial by a circle of railings.  At 
the appropriate point on the calendar line place a short upright pole which 
could be square in cross-section.

Tell the visitor to walk around the circular path until his/her shadow falls in 
the direction of the pole.  Read the time from the analemmatic hour mark on 
which the visitor’s shadow (not the shadow of the pole) falls.
Cover the bottom few inches of the pole with the retro-reflective material sold 
by 3M for road traffic signs.  Then, with luck, when the visitor stands on the 
right spot and views the pole from the same azimuth as the sun, the foot of the 
pole will appear to glow.

This meets several of Mr Phillips’ desiderata.  The principal hour markers will 
be on the southern side of the dial.  He will get his circle or semi-circle.  
The dial will use a human gnomon.  The pole must be moved each week along a 
north/south scale, but the scale itself could be fairly inconspicuous.  Since 
visitors are not allowed to tread on the sundial face it can be planted 
tastefully - maybe in rows parallel to the driveway?

Now shoot that one down!

John Lynes

--- On Thu, 26/6/08, Chris Lusby Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:

 From: Chris Lusby Taylor [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Subject: Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
 To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
 Date: Thursday, 26 June, 2008, 4:25 PM
 I have now proved arithmetically (to my own satisfaction at
 least) that
 there is no dial shape that works like an analemmatic dial
 but with the
 azimuth halved.
 
 I did this by calculating how far the gnomon would have to
 move at 2pm
 between the solstices and the equinoxes, and comparing
 these figures with
 4pm (for some arbitrary latitude). The ratios are
 different, implying that
 wherever you put a vertical gnomon on these three dates you
 could not
 position both a 2pm and a 4pm marker. For a normal
 analemmatic dial the
 ratios are all 1, i.e. the distance you move the gnomon
 from winter to
 spring = the distance you move it from spring to summer,
 for all hours of
 the day.
 
 Too bad. But I like the 2:1 gearing idea. Mechanisms to do
 this are very
 simple - the top of a pair of compasses is an example.
 
 Chris Lusby Taylor
 51.4N 1.3W

  -Original Message-From:
 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
 
  Dear Sundial Experts,
  I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope
 that any members will
 be
  able to give me some assistance on the following
 situation.
  Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall,
 Long Melford, Suffolk) is
  considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a
 new interactive
  attraction for visitors - but we are getting
 'conflicting' advice, on
  whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the
 way we want it to. We have
  been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks
 (apparently the acknowledged
  'experts' for these features), who have told
 us that its central scale of
  dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour
 markers must be
 correctly
  positioned on an elliptical ring, and which would lie
 on the Northern side
  of that scale of dates.
  Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com )
 confirm this.
  However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr
 Phillips) absolutelyINSISTS that
  he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with
 ourmain driveway - on a
  compass bearing which is about 162 degreesfrom North,
 with the hour points
  placed on its Southern side.He also wants the hour
 points to form an exact
  semi-circle, andnot be elliptical in shape. Mr
 Phillips refuses to accept
  thathe cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial
 feature as hewishes,
  and says that it must be possible to create this so
 thatit could then
 align
  with the existing layout of buildings/paths.
  Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is
 possible toinstall a
  Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations,
 (withappropriate
  re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if
 not,just confirm that it
  must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me.
  I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr
 Phillips. BecauseKentwell
  Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the
 public),we should not want
  to become a 'laughing stock' by installing
 afeature which does not work -
  despite Mr Phillips assurance thatall types of
 sundial can be adjusted to
  work, in any location.
  Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent
 privately).
  Sincerely, Alison Shields.
 
  ---
  https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Jan Bielawski]

So this could be called analemmatic shadow plane sundial perhaps?
(Note the date scale must be reversed as well.)

--
Jan

On Thu, Jun 26, 2008 at 10:37 AM,  [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Sorry, folks.  As always, Chris Lusby Taylor is right.  And as usual I have 
 egg on my face.  I guess it's a privilege to be mentored by such a precise 
 and patient authority.

 Back to the drawing board.  Here's my next proposal:

 Lay out a conventional analemmatic sundial turned through 180 degrees, i.e. 
 with the noon marker to the south of the calendar line.  Surround the sundial 
 with a circular path, separated from the sundial by a circle of railings.  At 
 the appropriate point on the calendar line place a short upright pole which 
 could be square in cross-section.

 Tell the visitor to walk around the circular path until his/her shadow falls 
 in the direction of the pole.  Read the time from the analemmatic hour mark 
 on which the visitor's shadow (not the shadow of the pole) falls.
 Cover the bottom few inches of the pole with the retro-reflective material 
 sold by 3M for road traffic signs.  Then, with luck, when the visitor stands 
 on the right spot and views the pole from the same azimuth as the sun, the 
 foot of the pole will appear to glow.

 This meets several of Mr Phillips' desiderata.  The principal hour markers 
 will be on the southern side of the dial.  He will get his circle or 
 semi-circle.  The dial will use a human gnomon.  The pole must be moved each 
 week along a north/south scale, but the scale itself could be fairly 
 inconspicuous.  Since visitors are not allowed to tread on the sundial face 
 it can be planted tastefully - maybe in rows parallel to the driveway?

 Now shoot that one down!

 John Lynes
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[John Lynes]

I'm grateful for the generous reception you gave to my last contribution to 
this thread.  Here belatedly is another possible solution, less impractical but 
more complex than my last effort.

Imagine a North-South meridian line on flat ground.  On this line place a thin 
flat vertical mirror - essentially a vertical reflective slit - a few feet 
above the ground and pivoted to rotate about a vertical axis through the mirror 
and the meridian.  When the sun shines, a visitor is asked to turn the mirrored 
slit so that the sun's reflection falls along the meridian line.

Straight below the slit, locked to the same vertical axis, is a small 
horizontal analemmatic sundial, a few inches across, placed so that the axis of 
rotation of the assembly coincides with the calendar date-point on the 
analemmatic dial, and the major axis of the analemmatic dial's ellipse is 
parallel to the plane of the mirror.  The direction of the meridian line 
indicates the solar time on the (modified, see below) face of the analemmatic 
dial.

The azimuth of the mirror, measured from the meridian, would be only half the 
azimuth of the sun, so the hour markings on the analemmatic dial would need 
adjusting, e.g. the 1pm mark would be relabelled 2pm (sorry, 10.am).  They 
would run anti-clockwise, and would of course be reversed from north to south.

A groundsman would have to keep the mirror polished, and realign the date-point 
with the axis of rotation perhaps once a week.  He might fix a different dial 
for daylight saving.

Now comes the nifty bit!  Mr Phillips is not forced to accept a North-South 
meridian line.  He could commission a line parallel to his main driveway, for 
aligning the reflection of the sun.  A small fixed North-South marker would 
still indicate the time on the analemmatic dial.  I leave it to the 
heavyweights to recalculate the hourly markings on the dial face.

Alas the gnomon is no longer human, but the device would be interactive, 
instructive and, I daresay, unprecedented.

Apologies for a disgracefully late entry!

John Lynes


-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dear Sundial Experts,  
I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be 
able to give me some assistance on the following situation.
Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is considering 
installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive attraction for visitors 
- but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on whether this 'Human Sundial' will 
work in the way we want it to.  We have been in discussion with Modern 
Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have 
told us that its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that 
hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring, and which 
would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates.
Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this.
However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutelyINSISTS that he 
wants the scale to run exactly parallel with ourmain driveway - on a compass 
bearing which is about 162 degreesfrom North, with the hour points placed on 
its Southern side.He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, 
andnot be elliptical in shape.  Mr Phillips refuses to accept thathe cannot 
arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as hewishes, and says that it 
must be possible to create this so thatit could then align with the existing 
layout of buildings/paths.
Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible toinstall a 
Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (withappropriate re-calculation 
of its component parts) - or, if not,just confirm that it must be as Modern 
Sunclocks have told me.
I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips.  BecauseKentwell 
Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public),we should not want to 
become a 'laughing stock' by installing afeature which does not work - despite 
Mr Phillips assurance thatall types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any 
location.
Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately).  Sincerely,  
Alison Shields.

---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Bill Gottesman]

Nice job.  Original, adaptable.  I suspect it can be modified to apply 
to a larger scope of dials than just analemmatic.  Not sure the public 
would go for it aesthetically, but I admire the concept.

-Bill Gottesman

John Lynes wrote:
 I'm grateful for the generous reception you gave to my last contribution to 
 this thread.  Here belatedly is another possible solution, less impractical 
 but more complex than my last effort.

 Imagine a North-South meridian line on flat ground.  On this line place a 
 thin flat vertical mirror - essentially a vertical reflective slit - a few 
 feet above the ground and pivoted to rotate about a vertical axis through the 
 mirror and the meridian.  When the sun shines, a visitor is asked to turn the 
 mirrored slit so that the sun's reflection falls along the meridian line.

 Straight below the slit, locked to the same vertical axis, is a small 
 horizontal analemmatic sundial, a few inches across, placed so that the axis 
 of rotation of the assembly coincides with the calendar date-point on the 
 analemmatic dial, and the major axis of the analemmatic dial's ellipse is 
 parallel to the plane of the mirror.  The direction of the meridian line 
 indicates the solar time on the (modified, see below) face of the analemmatic 
 dial.

 The azimuth of the mirror, measured from the meridian, would be only half the 
 azimuth of the sun, so the hour markings on the analemmatic dial would need 
 adjusting, e.g. the 1pm mark would be relabelled 2pm (sorry, 10.am).  They 
 would run anti-clockwise, and would of course be reversed from north to south.

 A groundsman would have to keep the mirror polished, and realign the 
 date-point with the axis of rotation perhaps once a week.  He might fix a 
 different dial for daylight saving.

 Now comes the nifty bit!  Mr Phillips is not forced to accept a North-South 
 meridian line.  He could commission a line parallel to his main driveway, for 
 aligning the reflection of the sun.  A small fixed North-South marker would 
 still indicate the time on the analemmatic dial.  I leave it to the 
 heavyweights to recalculate the hourly markings on the dial face.

 Alas the gnomon is no longer human, but the device would be interactive, 
 instructive and, I daresay, unprecedented.

 Apologies for a disgracefully late entry!

 John Lynes


 -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

 Dear Sundial Experts,  
 I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be 
 able to give me some assistance on the following situation.
 Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is 
 considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive 
 attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on whether 
 this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to.  We have been in 
 discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged 'experts' for 
 these features), who have told us that its central scale of dates must be 
 aligned North/South - plus that hour markers must be correctly positioned on 
 an elliptical ring, and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of 
 dates.
 Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this.
 However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutelyINSISTS that he 
 wants the scale to run exactly parallel with ourmain driveway - on a compass 
 bearing which is about 162 degreesfrom North, with the hour points placed on 
 its Southern side.He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, 
 andnot be elliptical in shape.  Mr Phillips refuses to accept thathe cannot 
 arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as hewishes, and says that it 
 must be possible to create this so thatit could then align with the existing 
 layout of buildings/paths.
 Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible toinstall a 
 Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (withappropriate 
 re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not,just confirm that it must 
 be as Modern Sunclocks have told me.
 I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips.  BecauseKentwell 
 Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public),we should not want to 
 become a 'laughing stock' by installing afeature which does not work - 
 despite Mr Phillips assurance thatall types of sundial can be adjusted to 
 work, in any location.
 Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately).  
 Sincerely,  Alison Shields.

 ---
 https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial



   
---
https://lists.uni-koeln.de/mailman/listinfo/sundial

Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Chris Lusby Taylor]

Very neat John!

But I don't think it works. Not even if south-facing.

The problem is that you are halving the angle through which you turn the
dial. That affects the geometry of the elliptical dial. You can't just
renumber the hour marks. The sun's azimuth (measured from south) at 2pm is
not twice the azimuth at 1pm.
So, I'm pretty sure you can't just take an analemmatic ellipse, reverse and
renumber the hours. But maybe there is a shape, perhaps a different ellipse,
that would work. You might well have to change the date scale as well.

If you can find a shape that works, I have some good news: the hour marks
are unchanged by the realignment of the axis from north-south. Imagine, for
instance, that the path went east-west. The mirror would be at 45 degrees to
the axes of the dial. The rotation of the mirror (and dial) to follow the
sun would be precisely the same as it would for a north-south path, so the
hour marks would still have 12 in the middle and all other angles as before.

Actually, rather than having the mirror at 45 degrees to the dial's axes and
a north or south pointer to read the time, you could align the dial with the
mirror and turn the pointer 45 degrees. Or, you could have the pointer
mounted with the mirror and the dial on the ground in a fixed orientation
(such as parallel to the infamous path), but able to be slid along its minor
axis according to the date.
The possibilities are almost endless. Or, they would be if we could find a
dial shape that would work!

But finding a shape that will function as a dial (or even proving that one
exists) will take a little longer than the spare time I have today. Sorry.
If anyone else wants to try it, I suggest tracing the hourly azimuth lines
for the equinoxes overlaid with the same lines for one of the solstices,
assuming the gnomon has moved by some arbitrary distance in the meantime.
Find the dial shape that would work for both dates (there will probably be
one) and see if it will work for all other dates.

Best wishes
Chris Lusby Taylor


- Original Message - 
From: John Lynes [EMAIL PROTECTED]
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Sent: Wednesday, June 25, 2008 4:46 PM
Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation


I'm grateful for the generous reception you gave to my last contribution to
this thread.  Here belatedly is another possible solution, less impractical
but more complex than my last effort.

Imagine a North-South meridian line on flat ground.  On this line place a
thin flat vertical mirror - essentially a vertical reflective slit - a few
feet above the ground and pivoted to rotate about a vertical axis through
the mirror and the meridian.  When the sun shines, a visitor is asked to
turn the mirrored slit so that the sun's reflection falls along the meridian
line.

Straight below the slit, locked to the same vertical axis, is a small
horizontal analemmatic sundial, a few inches across, placed so that the axis
of rotation of the assembly coincides with the calendar date-point on the
analemmatic dial, and the major axis of the analemmatic dial's ellipse is
parallel to the plane of the mirror.  The direction of the meridian line
indicates the solar time on the (modified, see below) face of the
analemmatic dial.

The azimuth of the mirror, measured from the meridian, would be only half
the azimuth of the sun, so the hour markings on the analemmatic dial would
need adjusting, e.g. the 1pm mark would be relabelled 2pm (sorry, 10.am).
They would run anti-clockwise, and would of course be reversed from north to
south.

A groundsman would have to keep the mirror polished, and realign the
date-point with the axis of rotation perhaps once a week.  He might fix a
different dial for daylight saving.

Now comes the nifty bit!  Mr Phillips is not forced to accept a North-South
meridian line.  He could commission a line parallel to his main driveway,
for aligning the reflection of the sun.  A small fixed North-South marker
would still indicate the time on the analemmatic dial.  I leave it to the
heavyweights to recalculate the hourly markings on the dial face.

Alas the gnomon is no longer human, but the device would be interactive,
instructive and, I daresay, unprecedented.

Apologies for a disgracefully late entry!

John Lynes


-Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]

Dear Sundial Experts,
I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members will be
able to give me some assistance on the following situation.
Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is
considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive
attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice, on
whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to. We have
been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the acknowledged
'experts' for these features), who have told us that its central scale of
dates must be aligned North/South - plus that hour markers

Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Jan Bielawski]

On Wed, Jun 25, 2008 at 11:01 AM, Chris Lusby Taylor
[EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
 Very neat John!

 But I don't think it works. Not even if south-facing.

 The problem is that you are halving the angle through which you turn the
 dial. That affects the geometry of the elliptical dial. You can't just
 renumber the hour marks. The sun's azimuth (measured from south) at 2pm is
 not twice the azimuth at 1pm.
 So, I'm pretty sure you can't just take an analemmatic ellipse, reverse and
 renumber the hours. But maybe there is a shape, perhaps a different ellipse,
 that would work. You might well have to change the date scale as well.

John's neat idea rearranges things as if the Sun during the day moved
only up and down along the celestial meridian while the missing
azimuthal motion is done by the sundial itself. As Chris points out,
the dial cannot be rigidly fixed to the mirror since the mirror only
moves through half the required azimuth.

So one way to fix this small problem is to rotate the sundial twice as
fast as the mirror - perhaps have them connected by some simple 2:1
gearing mechanism.

-- 
Jan
---
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Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Analemma Zonnewijzers]

Hi All,


very interesting issue, so after all:
with a verticle mirror with the right azimut you could turn the famous 
analemmatic sundial so the the line with the dates is on a path which is not 
north-south! and the ellips will be alligned with this path

looks to me that the issue can be solved after all.

One has to investigate if the dimensions of the mirror are realistic and you 
will need 2 mirrors (or 2 sundials) to cover the whole 24 hours .


If the azimut of the path is alpha, the mirror should be at alpha/2, 

kind regards,
Hendrik


-
Analemma Sundials
H J Hollander
Fixed +31 20 6374383
Cell +31 616 462 879
[EMAIL PROTECTED]
www.analemma.biz
lat 52 23' long 4 57' 





 

  - Original Message - 
  From: Chris Lusby Taylor 
  To: John Carmichael ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; 
sundial@uni-koeln.de 
  Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 7:38 PM
  Subject: [SPAM]Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation


  Hi John et al,
  I thought at first that John Lynes was making a joke, but you could actually 
do this. If you have a large, fixed, plane mirror you can use the sunlight 
reflected off it instead of the actual sun. By suitably angling the mirror you 
can make the sun appear to rotate about any desired axis, not just the earth's 
axis. So, you can make it appear to rotate about the local vertical, just as it 
does at the Poles. So, just as at the Poles, an analemmatic sundial using the 
reflected light will be circular and the gnomon/person will not need to be 
moved for different seasons. But the numbers will go round anticlockwise, which 
might cause further objections!

  The actual angle you'd need is this, I think: take a vertical mirror, facing 
south, then lean it towards the north at (90+latitude)/2 to the horizontal. For 
40 degrees North this makes 65 degrees. So, it's facing the southern sky, as it 
were. If it were a dialface we'd say it was a direct south reclining dial. Fix 
it there. Now, put a vertical gnomon close to the bottom centre of the mirror 
and mark out a perfectly semicircular, equiangular dial around it. It will work 
from 6am to 6pm throughout the summer. Or, if you want the user to be the 
gnomon, just mark the spot where they must stand.

  In the winter months, as John said, the sun's too low in the sky for the 
reflection to shine on the ground.

  A mirror of, say, four feet high and eight feet wide would work well. It 
doesn't have to be 100% perfect optical quality. Users should back up to it to 
avoid being dazzled, I suggest. I think this is an excellent solution to what 
at first appeared an impossible brief.

  Regards
  Chris

- Original Message - 
From: John Carmichael 
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; sundial@uni-koeln.de 
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 3:42 PM
Subject: RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation


Hello John L.

 

I’ve never heard of such a sundial and I can’t imagine how it would 
function.  I’m not sure I understand the setup and positioning of the mirror.  
Is the mirror permanently fastened to the ground  or is the mirror moveable? 
Does the mirror reflect sunlight onto the sundial face, or do you read the 
sundial by looking at the face’s reflection in the mirror?  I just don’t get 
it.  It sure would be helpful to see a drawing if possible.  

 

Puzzled in Tucson

 

John C.

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL 
PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 4:08 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

 

  Dear Alison

   

  One expedient, at least in theory, would be to fix a plane mirror, 
suitably angled in plan to the main driveway and tilted to convert the 
analemmatic sundial ellipse into a circle.  The position of the human gnomon 
would not vary with the season.  The sundial would receive reflected sunlight 
only on six months of the year, during the summer months, but this is when most 
visitors would be around.

   

  Unfortunately you would need either an enormous mirror or a very 
modest analemmatic sundial.

   

  John Lynes

  -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] 
Behalf Of Alison ShieldsSent: 03 June 2008 18:57To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]: Advice 
wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation  Dear Sundial Experts, I have 
recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any memberswill be able to 
give me some assistance on the following situation. Our local Stately Home 
(Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) isconsidering installing an 
Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactiveattraction for visitors - but we are 
getting 'conflicting' advice,on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the 
way we want it to.  We have been in discussion with Modern

Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[Chris Lusby Taylor]

Hi All again,
Just to clarify John and Hendrik's suggestions:

- with a non-south-facing vertical mirror you can turn the axis of the date 
scale and the dial ellipse to align with the path, so 12 noon will be due south 
of the centre of the dial (requrement 1). But note that the mirror itself would 
not be aligned with the path. The mirror can be placed just north of the date 
scale which, by the way would have June/July at its southern end - the reverse 
of normal. Or, the mirror could be moveable, sliding along the date scale. This 
would allow a smaller mirror. Otherwise, it would have to be very big indeed.

- with a south-facing non-vertical mirror you can make the scale circular, not 
elliptical, but 12 noon will not be due south of the centre of the dial 
(requirement 2). The date scale is not needed - you always stand in the same 
spot. The mirror can be smaller and non-moveable.


What you cannot do is both requirements together with a single mirror. You 
could perhaps, in theory, do it with two vast mirrors, but the dial would be 
hidden in between them, so the feature visitors would see first would be the 
mirrors, not the dial, and the benefit of having the dial aligned with the path 
would be lost.
You, or Mr Phillips, would have to decide whether you want the dial to be 
circular or to be aligned with the path.

With both types, there's a small problem that should be mentioned - that there 
will be two shadows! Let's say you stand with your back to a mirror and that 
the sun is in front and to the right of you. The direct sunlight falling on 
your right cheek will not reach the mirror, so will cause a shadow to appear on 
the ground in front of you. Also, the sunlight that reflects off the mirror 
onto the back of your head will cause a shadow. So, you will see two shadows. 
Which is telling the time?

With a vertical mirror the shadows are parallel. One appears to touch your feet 
directly - not via the mirror. That's the one to use.

With a reclining mirror, I think it should be placed right next to where you 
stand. One of the shadows will similarly appear to touch your own feet. It's 
also longer than the other. This is the one to use. But I have to confess that 
having two shadows could be very confusing. By the way, rather than reading the 
time on the physical dial, you could read it in the mirror. The hour marks 
would have to be mirror images of normal numbers, of course. Even in the mirror 
you can still see two shadows, unless you're a vampire.

To make the shadows easier to see I would suggest somehow shielding the hour 
marks from direct sunlight. Put something just south of them.

My preference, for what it's worth, would be to use John Lynes' inclined 
mirror. I think this would create a very striking semicircular feature. Indeed, 
it may well be unique in the world, unless John has used it elsewhere. One 
further feature it might be possible to incorporate would be to make the hour 
marks moveable so that they could be turned 15 degrees in summer to show BST. 
That's not possible with most sundials as the hour line angles aren't all 15 
degrees, but with this one they are.

By the way, with an analemmatic sundial that uses a human shadow, one decision 
is how big to make it. An noon in midsummer the sun's altitude is 62 degrees 
and one's shadow is less than three feet. It's a mistake to make the dial too 
big. But the reclining mirror effectively reduces the sun's altitude to just 23 
degrees so the shadow is greatly elongated and the dial can be made much bigger.

Hope this helps
Chris Lusby Taylor
51.4N 1.3W

  - Original Message - 
  From: Analemma Zonnewijzers 
  To: Chris Lusby Taylor ; John Carmichael ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL 
PROTECTED] ; sundial@uni-koeln.de 
  Sent: Tuesday, June 10, 2008 8:27 AM
  Subject: Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation


  Hi All,


  very interesting issue, so after all:
  with a verticle mirror with the right azimut you could turn the famous 
analemmatic sundial so the the line with the dates is on a path which is not 
north-south! and the ellips will be alligned with this path

  looks to me that the issue can be solved after all.

  One has to investigate if the dimensions of the mirror are realistic and you 
will need 2 mirrors (or 2 sundials) to cover the whole 24 hours .


  If the azimut of the path is alpha, the mirror should be at alpha/2, 

  kind regards,
  Hendrik


  -
  Analemma Sundials
  H J Hollander
  Fixed +31 20 6374383
  Cell +31 616 462 879
  [EMAIL PROTECTED]
  www.analemma.biz
  lat 52 23' long 4 57' 







- Original Message - 
From: Chris Lusby Taylor 
To: John Carmichael ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; [EMAIL PROTECTED] ; 
sundial@uni-koeln.de 
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 7:38 PM
Subject: [SPAM]Re: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation


Hi John et al,
I thought at first that John Lynes was making a joke

RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[jlynes]

Dear Alison
nbsp;
One expedient, at least in theory,nbsp;would be to fix a plane mirror, 
suitably angled in plan to the main driveway and tilted to convert the 
analemmatic sundial ellipse into a circle.nbsp; The position of the human 
gnomon would not vary with the season.nbsp; The sundial would receive 
reflected sunlight only on six months of the year, during the summer months, 
but this is when most visitors would be around.
nbsp;
Unfortunately you would need either an enormous mirror or a very modest 
analemmatic sundial.
nbsp;
John Lynes

nbsp;
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Alison Shields
Sent: 03 June 2008 18:57
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation


Dear Sundial Experts,

I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members
will be able to give me some assistance on the following situation.

Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is
considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive
attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice,
on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to.


We have been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the
acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have told us that
its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that
hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring,
and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates.

Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this.


However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutely
INSISTS that he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with our
main driveway - on a compass bearing which is about 162 degrees
from North, with the hour points placed on its Southern side.

He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, and
not be elliptical in shape.  Mr Phillips refuses to accept that
he cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as he
wishes, and says that it must be possible to create this so that
it could then align with the existing layout of buildings/paths.


Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible to
install a Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (with
appropriate re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not,
just confirm that it must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me.

I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips.  Because
Kentwell Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public),
we should not want to become a 'laughing stock' by installing a
feature which does not work - despite Mr Phillips assurance that
all types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any location.


Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately).


Sincerely,

Alison Shields.

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RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

[John Carmichael]

Hello John L.

 

I’ve never heard of such a sundial and I can’t imagine how it would function.  
I’m not sure I understand the setup and positioning of the mirror.  Is the 
mirror permanently fastened to the ground  or is the mirror moveable? Does the 
mirror reflect sunlight onto the sundial face, or do you read the sundial by 
looking at the face’s reflection in the mirror?  I just don’t get it.  It sure 
would be helpful to see a drawing if possible.  

 

Puzzled in Tucson

 

John C.

 

 

From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Sent: Monday, June 09, 2008 4:08 AM
To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: RE: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation

 


Dear Alison

 

One expedient, at least in theory, would be to fix a plane mirror, suitably 
angled in plan to the main driveway and tilted to convert the analemmatic 
sundial ellipse into a circle.  The position of the human gnomon would not vary 
with the season.  The sundial would receive reflected sunlight only on six 
months of the year, during the summer months, but this is when most visitors 
would be around.

 

Unfortunately you would need either an enormous mirror or a very modest 
analemmatic sundial.

 

John Lynes

 
 
-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]
On Behalf Of Alison Shields
Sent: 03 June 2008 18:57
To: sundial@uni-koeln.de
Subject: Advice wanted, on 'Analemmatic' sundial orientation
 
 
Dear Sundial Experts,
 
I have recently joined this Mailing List, and hope that any members
will be able to give me some assistance on the following situation.
 
Our local Stately Home (Kentwell Hall, Long Melford, Suffolk) is
considering installing an Analemmatic sundial, as a new interactive
attraction for visitors - but we are getting 'conflicting' advice,
on whether this 'Human Sundial' will work in the way we want it to.
 
 
We have been in discussion with Modern Sunclocks (apparently the
acknowledged 'experts' for these features), who have told us that
its central scale of dates must be aligned North/South - plus that
hour markers must be correctly positioned on an elliptical ring,
and which would lie on the Northern side of that scale of dates.
 
Photographs on their website ( www.sunclocks.com ) confirm this.
 
 
However, our 'Director of Operations' (Mr Phillips) absolutely
INSISTS that he wants the scale to run exactly parallel with our
main driveway - on a compass bearing which is about 162 degrees
from North, with the hour points placed on its Southern side.
 
He also wants the hour points to form an exact semi-circle, and
not be elliptical in shape.  Mr Phillips refuses to accept that
he cannot arbitrarily position the Human Sundial feature as he
wishes, and says that it must be possible to create this so that
it could then align with the existing layout of buildings/paths.
 
 
Can anyone on this Mailing List tell me whether it is possible to
install a Human Sundial to fit any existing orientations, (with
appropriate re-calculation of its component parts) - or, if not,
just confirm that it must be as Modern Sunclocks have told me.
 
I can then show the 'weight of evidence' to Mr Phillips.  Because
Kentwell Hall is a well-known Stately Home (open to the public),
we should not want to become a 'laughing stock' by installing a
feature which does not work - despite Mr Phillips assurance that
all types of sundial can be adjusted to work, in any location.
 
 
Looking forward to all comments (to this List, or sent privately).
 
 
Sincerely,
 
Alison Shields.
 
---
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---
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