[biofuels-biz] [biofuel] Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Its unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers. And I am not interested in seeing a homebrewer association or whatever, nor certification, nor regulations about homebrew. 'Regulation' or standardization of our practices has to come from us, and be voluntary, and it's come from us quite successfully so far. We're working out our own education, with no thanks to industry, government, (well, maybe in the form of university studies that we've learned from), nor capitalism in general. I've heard rumors at one point that there is a certification program that's been discussed at DOE at one point or another, and it was supposed to be for our own good, to educate us about process and to supposedly keep us from blowing ourselves up or whatnot. But the safety info that I teach didn't come from any government certification program, and I'm sure it's sticking in students' minds- and the existence of these classes and the info covered comes straight from the homebrewers- no certifiers, government studies, or whatever, were needed for something like my class to come about. Classes like I teach are an organic outgrowth of the homebrew movement. I've written about this elsewhere- I'm scared sh*tless about what a certification program or other regulations for homebrewers could lead to- I;ve seen it in the original set of proposed USDA Organic Standards, and the insane fight we had to put up to keep the worst of that program from being inflicted on us. And the originally proposed USDA Organic Standards were a result of the organic foods growers' very well-intentioned request for standardizing and federal-izing something that the organic movement and (independently run, nongovernment) state organics organizations were doing a fine job of regulating. But organic food became more mainstream, and more money was to be had in it, and someone did a dumb thing and asked the government to step in to protect their market from a perceived threat. And next thing you knew, here was the proposed USDA standards, the terrible, flawed process that brought them about, and the painful battle the grassroots movement had to fight to stop the outrageous things that big industry snuck in there- (toxic sludge is organic if neccessary, gmo's are organic if necessary, pesticides are organic if necessary, irradiation (yup, if necessary!), and more... and a ban on labeling food in any manner that gives the impression that the label is a 'higher standard' than USDA organic (invalidating labeling food produced with established practices like biodynamic, for instance)) so this kind of talk of certification, etc, getting homebrewers to present a
RE: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils
Todd, Thanks for the link Todd. I'll write them an e-mail. ?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / The main reason to ask for the emission testing results are a worried government. WVO from restaurants always contains some animal fat. Some restaurants fry meat or meat products in the oil. A minor group of restaurants use animal fat as a frying oil. This worries the government when it comes to waste disposal. There are 2 EU regulations on air pollution from combustion. One for burning pure plant derived biomass and clean waste (2001/80/EC) and one for not clean waste including animal derived products (2000/76/EC). Since there have been some animal born diseases in Europe lately the government is very sensitive about waste disposal containing animal derived products. Even though the used frying oil comes from products fit for human consumption, this doesn't give enough guarantee for the government. For burning used frying oil one needs a permit from the local government. And one by one they ask the same questions. Up till now this mainly resulted in refusals to give a permit. I try to gather all necessary information in order to help the companies who collect frying oil from restaurants and sell it as a bio fuel to answer these questions. So if you or anyone also knows an organisation which has already done some combustion tests on used frying oil from restaurants I would be glad to know. Frank -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: maandag 25 november 2002 20:30 Aan: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Onderwerp: Re: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils Frank, Take a look at www.cleanburn.com They're just a few hours from here in Pennsylvania. We ran samples of Ohio crude straight out of the ground, straight vegetable oil and biodiesel in one of their units (one of their distributor's units in Ohio actually), all with fine results relative to the functional ability of the fuels in comparison to the waste motor oils they are designed to use. Granted, that's not the same as emissions results. However, these units are approved by the US EPA, which means that they have to have conducted some emissions testing using waste motor oil. Certainly WVO would be less toxic out of the chute than motor oil, or at least one would tend to believe so. Take a look. Perhaps e-mail them. If you need someone to make a call, it could be done from our end relatively easily. Todd Swearingen Appal Energy - Original Message - From: Frank Bergmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils Hi everyone, At this moment I am writing a fact sheet about the use of used Waste Vegetable Oil from restaurants. Since the ban on animal feed WVO needs an alternative outlet. Because the Dutch government is against tax redemption on bio diesel the most relevant outlet at this moment is heating fuel in boilers to heat for example glass houses. The product board helps the Dutch collectors of WVO to maintain their quite successful collecting system. Goal is to prevent WVO to disappear into a general waste stream. Before issuing a permit, the government wants to know more about the possible emissions to the air. Problem is that I don't have this information. I have been searching the internet for reports on experimental data on combustion of WVO in boilers. But unfortunately I didn't find anything useful. Can anyone help me? Frank Bergmans Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- Share the magic of Harry Potter with Yahoo! Messenger http://us.click.yahoo.com/4Q_cgB/JmBFAA/46VHAA/9bTolB/TM --- --~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ . [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To
[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hi Mark Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-) Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives. We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an appropriate technology project. The technology development we've talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other projects. That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are anti-biofuels really made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO. Regards Keith Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Its unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers. And I am not
RE: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils
Hello Frank Their concern is a bit amusing, considering all the dead animals dumped in landfills, burnt in incinerators and so on. Nonetheless, they're right to be concerned. This study was done to address the problem of tallow disposal from BSE animals - it's about biodiesel rather than WVO, but could be useful to you all the same: http://www.teagasc.ie/research/reports/crops/4321/eopr-4321.htm Cost Reduction in Bio-Diesel Production As part of a programme to assess bio-diesel production from low-cost materials, the availability of waste oils and fats in Ireland and the EU was assessed, and the behaviour of their esters in vehicles was measured. The utilisation of beef tallow from BSE risk organisms was given special attention. These might also be useful: Comparison of the Engine Performance and Emissions Characteristics of Vegetable Oil-Based and Animal Fat-Based Biodiesel Abstract: Comparison of the Engine Performance and Emissions Characteristics of Vegetable Oil-Based and Animal Fat-Based Biodiesel Jon Van Gerpen Iowa State University August 8, 1996 Introduction Biodiesel fuels produced from animal fats and vegetable oils have similar composition. The primary difference is t http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/gen-218.pdf Bio-diesel Production based on Waste Cooking Oil: Abstract: Bio-diesel Production based on Waste Cooking Oil: Promotion of the Establishment of an Industry in Ireland ALTENER CONTRACT No. XVII/4.1030/AL/77/95/IRL Final Report, Sept 1997 W. Korbitz, Austrian Biofuels Institute, Vienna, Austria. B. Rice, A. Frohlich, R. Leonard, Teagasc, Oak Park Research Centre, Carlow, Ireland. http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/reports/gen/gen-190.pdf Prowl around a bit at the NBB database, see what you can find. http://www.biodiesel.org/resources/reportsdatabase/ NBB Report Search There isn't a lot of information on SVO emissions, not nearly as much as on biodiesel, but I think you can use the biodiesel studies, or at least some of them. The ACREVO study might give you useful information on how they differ. That's here, along with other SVO studies: http://journeytoforever.org/biodiesel_svo.html#refs HTH Best wishes Keith Todd, Thanks for the link Todd. I'll write them an e-mail. ?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = urn:schemas-microsoft-com:office:office / The main reason to ask for the emission testing results are a worried government. WVO from restaurants always contains some animal fat. Some restaurants fry meat or meat products in the oil. A minor group of restaurants use animal fat as a frying oil. This worries the government when it comes to waste disposal. There are 2 EU regulations on air pollution from combustion. One for burning pure plant derived biomass and clean waste (2001/80/EC) and one for not clean waste including animal derived products (2000/76/EC). Since there have been some animal born diseases in Europe lately the government is very sensitive about waste disposal containing animal derived products. Even though the used frying oil comes from products fit for human consumption, this doesn't give enough guarantee for the government. For burning used frying oil one needs a permit from the local government. And one by one they ask the same questions. Up till now this mainly resulted in refusals to give a permit. I try to gather all necessary information in order to help the companies who collect frying oil from restaurants and sell it as a bio fuel to answer these questions. So if you or anyone also knows an organisation which has already done some combustion tests on used frying oil from restaurants I would be glad to know. Frank -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Appal Energy [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED] Verzonden: maandag 25 november 2002 20:30 Aan: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Onderwerp: Re: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used frying oils Frank, Take a look at www.cleanburn.com They're just a few hours from here in Pennsylvania. We ran samples of Ohio crude straight out of the ground, straight vegetable oil and biodiesel in one of their units (one of their distributor's units in Ohio actually), all with fine results relative to the functional ability of the fuels in comparison to the waste motor oils they are designed to use. Granted, that's not the same as emissions results. However, these units are approved by the US EPA, which means that they have to have conducted some emissions testing using waste motor oil. Certainly WVO would be less toxic out of the chute than motor oil, or at least one would tend to believe so. Take a look. Perhaps e-mail them. If you need someone to make a call, it could be done from our end relatively easily. Todd Swearingen Appal Energy - Original Message - From: Frank Bergmans [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuels-biz@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 9:47 AM Subject: [biofuels-biz] information on combustion of used
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hi; I agree with the emphasis on third world empowerment. As things stand now small bio diesel producers can make some headway (ie money) due to a surplus of raw fuel stocks ie. WVO. Once bio diesel becomes competitive and/or necessary, free or inexpensive fuel stocks will vanish. The owners of raw fuel stock will demand money for its removable--capitalism will maintain its logic. When free fuel stocks vanish it will be interesting to see if bio diesel maintain its inexpensive nature or will be marketed as a super fuel and charged out at a premium--my money is on the later. Best regards... Alex landels --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mark Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-) Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives. We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an appropriate technology project. The technology development we've talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other projects. That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are anti-biofuels really made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO. Regards Keith Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Itís unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to
Re: [biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hello; Good point about third world... I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid programs or the well-to-do. I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the profitability of restaurants. Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big business. My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less pleasant means). Best Regards Alex Landels --- Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Hi Mark Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-) Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives. We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an appropriate technology project. The technology development we've talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other projects. That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are anti-biofuels really made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO. Regards Keith Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Itís unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small
[biofuels-biz] RE: Thor's post and others re: opening the industry
I truly appreciate the great effort of Thor and many others in providing sound suggestions on how to improve the relationship between small producers, the NBB and the commercial side of the industry. I have been funneling these to individuals in the industry and NBB whom I think are most receptive to new ideas and to change. I can't and don't speak for the industry but from my personal perspective, I believe that some valid criticisms have been levied and excellent improvements proposed. I apologize that I have not been doing a better job of addressing many of the specific points made but I simply cannot keep up with the prolific nature of this group. After some experience here, I have a much better understanding of the efforts that are being made to make top-quality fuel. I also think I should provide some more details regarding my perspective on homebrew (and should have been more careful about sweeping statements in the first place). While I do nothing but biodiesel 40-70 hours/week, I have not seen any significant problems result from the use of homebrew. There are concerns but these are primarily perception rather than experience. That said, I think the more that is done for quality control for everyone involved in the production and distribution of biodiesel, the better. So I hope that everyone's input and effort on these fronts yields results. Happy Trails, Graham Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] Re: A response to ... eh-hem.... Big Industry? was Re: BIG
Keith, Great post. You have my brain working. Thanks for reminding me about the NBBs focus on fleets. I had forgotten that. However, I dont necessarily agree that small-scale producers are going to eschew fleets. But first, I think I may be tripping up on definitions. Where, really, does one draw the distinction between a homebrewer, a small-scale producer, and a large corporate producer? It seems to me that we might be trying to force various attributes, scale of production, geographical reach, business model, philosophy, community focus, into single descriptors. A homebrewer might be someone who produces say, 100 gallons per week, on their residential property. A small-scale producer could be a 2-5 person operation, using local feedstock, but as a primary commercial enterprise. Both of these produce for local consumers. But you could have a large-scale local producer who also relies on local feedstocks, especially in a large metropolitan area, also for local consumption. A business model such as World Energys, on the other hand, is predicated on quite different assumptions and operating procedures, moving raw materials and finished products among various markets; its much more akin to Enron than to any localized business. However, if we want to emphasize local energy economies, then local producers, including small-scale ones, should be thinking about fleets. Theres no reason why, for example, a Seattle-based producer couldnt supply the city school buses, or the municipal transit. I could still reasonably call them small-scale at this level (granted I havent crunched the numbers to see if the available WVO supply is sufficient to meet the needs of these buyers). You wrote that surveys show that Americans are willing to pay extra for greener and more economical vehicles. Can you point me in the direction of some of these surveys? I would so like to believe this but I am skeptical. There is always a gulf between expressed willingness to pay and actually paying. And what I see happening is precisely the opposite most people are more than willing to pay more for less green and less economical vehicles. Sure, there are a few who buy high-efficiency diesels (yours truly) or hybrids, but those are still a small market segment. You may be correct that I am overestimating the trepidation of the average consumer. I acknowledge that people I talk to about biodiesel (including those who have never heard about it before) are generally enthusiastic, but theres a gulf between enthusiasm and action. You are undoubtedly correct that the general public needs a different approach from fleet managers, but remember that the general public interacts with big business for most of its car needs purchase, fuel, parts. Many people are uninformed and busy. So, to get mr and mrs suburbia to act (at least in the short term) you need to reach these big business interfaces. If they can get a diesel-electric hybrid at their dealer they are much more likely to buy one than if they have to do a bunch of research and go out of their way to find something. Similarly, if the local Texaco is selling BD, great. If they have to drive somewhere out of the way and set up a special account with a small distributor, thats a barrier. Keith, I am still digesting your paragraph about a decentralized diffused network. I agree that it works best for information exchange and resource sharing, but for the purposes of lobbying, or communicating with an entity such as the NBB, it does not. If, as you say, homebrewers may not be able to organize because of internal disagreements, how would it be possible for the NBB (or anyone else) to deal effectively with them, at least in terms of reaching a consensus on issues? Maybe they don't need to as Mark suggests. I realize that you and others on this list have a much greater familiarity with and feel for the composition of the independent biodiesel community than do I. I also may be too conventional in my thinking, and I will ponder your post further. On the other hand, perhaps were not disagreeing at all. You support an association of small-scale coops and other producers, and that (I think) is really what I was talking about. Someone brewing 50 or 100 gallons a week in their garage is not necessarily whom I would target. Yet, that person may be equally affected (in relative terms), by changes in state and national laws or agency regulations. In other words, I dont think that a movement to localize economic activity, including energy production, can often afford to ignore the wider world. National and state policies can have dramatic impacts locally; consider just fuel taxes, licensing, and testing requirements. You wrote that the hundreds of biodieselers are accessible through existing networks. True, but Im not talking about a reaching in, rather a reaching out. I agree that small biodieselers should not try to organize themselves into the
[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Mark, Well, my post certain punched a lot of your buttons. I appreciate your taking the time to reply so passionately. As should be obvious by now, I am not familiar with the homebrewing community beyond the few individuals I know regionally who make BD and my own as yet unrealized pretensions towards making my own fuel for a while now. I agree with you that homebrewers, small producers, and large producers have different agendas and (possibly) overlapping interests. I am sure you read my posts carefully Mark, so you know that I never suggested homebrewers give anything up to a representative, or a representative organization. In fact, I said specifically that most homebrewers would probably not be interested in belonging to a biodiesel association, and that no such association could ever replace local ties. I also NEVER said anything about, as you put it, unagreed-to representatives, etc!), so please, no matter how agitated you feel, try to refrain from setting up straw men. My focus is really more on independent producers who are making a (small) business of biodiesel. But, my point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good idea. You dont have to sell me on the merits of decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects, and empowered community members. I work with those every day. But you may need to sell some individuals in power on those concepts if you are worried about them messing things up. Since you express great concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know that you want to be left the f*#k alone? I would suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are not going to do it. Mark, you wrote, and I know for a fact that many of the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying organizations or whatnot. I certainly cant gainsay that. But I wonder if you have enough in common as homebrewers to see to your collective interest as homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations. The possible organization and regulation you are agonizing about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the original organic farmers. Adoption of technology goes through phases, and if something becomes more lucrative as a business, more people will enter and want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards, etc. Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes. Sadly, I doubt that is likely. The anecdotes you have related bolster that view. WRT certification, although I didnt say so specifically, I was actually thinking about third-party, private-sector (nonprofit) certification, not a government program. When I mentioned organic certification I was thinking of Oregon Tilth, CCOF, etc., not USDA organic standards. What happened to organics was lamentable, but I think it had less to do with poor government than it did with the fact that the proposed regs were developed at a time when agribusiness (General Mills, ADM, Birdseye) was realizing the huge growth potential in organic foods and was jumping into the market with both feet. The standards proposed in 98 reflected their interests (and those of corporate farms), more than it did the pioneers of organics. What is interesting was the reaction. USDA received more public comments (over a half a million IIRC), way more than any federal agency had ever received on any proposed standards. How did this happen? It happened because these voices of the public were focused through the efforts of, yup, organizationsfood cooperatives, environmental organizations, local farm and agriculture organizations. They got the word out and got it out well. Now, in part, this reflected the effectiveness of diffused networks of activists and interested consumers. But it also reflected a LOT of hard work by formal organizations. Back to certification. I come from a background studying certification and labeling, mostly of forest products and food. I dont know if certification and labeling would work for biodiesel, whether or not it would be a good idea, what the effect on consumer behavior would be. I threw it out as a possibility. The thing is, I dont think anyone else knows either, including you and Keith. No one has done (to my knowledge, and Id love to be wrong on this cause I like hard data) market research on how consumers make choices on alternative fuels for their automobiles, what influencing their decision-making, how risk-averse they are, and so on. I originally stated that I thought they are risk-averse and Keith asserted the opposite. I hope hes
[biofuels-biz] Homebrew problems
The problems of quality of homebrew or commercial for that matter never seem to go away. As much as I would like to pretend that our bio is perfect, I want to share the latest of ours problems with the group in the hope that some one may benefit. I got a call that the fuel from the storage tank had clogged the filter on Tony's crane truck. Not with algae but with grease. Bear in mind that it been over 30¡C. I went over the process that Tony had been using. We had been concentrating on fine tuning the separators to continually remove the glycerol as it formed, the fuel was completely reacted and the temperature was over the melting points of our longest fatty acid esters. The problem had to come from the washing. Now washing is a brutal affair compared with bubble washing and getting the emulsion to break involves acidifying the water(slightly I would have hoped.). I ran some thick cream from the bottom drain of the storage tank and tested it for FFA's by mixing with neutral water and titrating the layers. The water remained neutral but the oil took ² ml of standard NaOH . I deduced that I was dealing with FFA's not an inorganic acid. After performing a number of trials using acid catalysis and the three alcohols on hand. I found that the controls using alcohol alone reduced the acid number and clarified the product. Addition of 5% of methanol without the addition of Sulphuric clarified the goop within 30 minutes at ambient temperature. We modified the post washing stage . Drying was achieved by heating the fuel to 115¡ while pumping from the bottom and spraying over the open top. As the dry fuel cooled to 60¡C 2% methanol was added and the lid closed for recirculating. Once cool, ~30¡C, this fuel was pumped across to the storage vat. I have neglected research on the washing stage, hopefully we can shorten this step as well. When the separators work well a 200l batch can be reacted and separated to completion in under an hour. I believe that the separators would have to spin much faster to be of use in post-wash separation. I have designed a simple vertical centrifuge to take the place of the dairy separators. If I get around to building it I'll post the results. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] regulations was: Re:Homebrewer on a soapbox!
Thor, as far as straw men go, I wasn't just replying to your post, there's been a lot of this kind of talk lately. I am very interested in seeing more face to face, local connections in the homebrewer community, but would be very suspicious of any situation where an organization would be formed that would speak for 'the homebrewer community', and that for most people would be the reason for seeing such an organization formed. again, it's important to realize that's a very different thing than seeing such an organization for small producers, who of course can use all the organization that they can get. anyway, it's amusing that in any talk that happens about organizing homebrewers to protect us from (from ourselves, from regulations, um, I however keep reading it as protecting ourselves from ourselves), people seem to forget that we aren't threatened by much in reality. Here's a couple of comments: Thor wrote: My focus is really more on independent producers who are making a (small) business of biodiesel. But, my point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good idea. You donât have to sell me on the merits of decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects, and empowered community members. I work with those every day. But you may need to sell some individuals in power on those concepts if you are worried about them messing things up. Since you express great concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know that you want to be left the f*#k alone? I would suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are not going to do it. mark: that';s potential regulation, not actual and current. Regulation will happen if we invite it, it won't if we don't. Homebrewer national organizations will invite it, that;s the nature of that kind of politics. Taxes are another matter. Mark, you wrote, ãand I know for a fact that many of the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying organizations or whatnot.ä I certainly canât gainsay that. But I wonder if you have enough in common as homebrewers to see to your collective interest as homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations. The possible organization and regulation you are agonizing about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the original organic farmers. Adoption of technology goes through phases, and if something becomes more lucrative as a business, more people will enter and want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards, etc. Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes. Sadly, I doubt that is likely. The anecdotes you have related bolster that view. Me: One thing that people forget is that there's very few ways that homebrewers can effectively be regulated unless it';s something we ask for and consent to. Our berkeley co-op, and other general membership coops, because it is such a public operation, could be regulated out of existence very easily. Small producers, because they are in business and they distribute fuel to the public, can be regulated. But few independent homebrewers could be, if they're not making some public big deal out of the existence of their processors. I mean, we use scrap and waste for chrissakes, and working in our garages and backyards for the most part. What do we have to be afraid of, if we don't invite it to happen to us first?. One way I could see this regulation happening is through regulation of the sale of methanol. But knowing the racecar engine builders I've met through buying methanol, or the racing fuels /methanol dealer I buy it from currently (the guy gave me a discount because 'you're a fuel geek, like us', yikes!), they are also a very independent lot who would probably still be a resource for homebrewers if this were to happen. The only other way we could be found and regulated, I could imagine is tank dipping for tax evasion purposes, (see the recent welsh drivers bust story)etc- not likely in the US. Of course there's lots of ways that some powers that be could make our lives miserable. But in reality, there's very few ways to find out if someone's making biodiesel 'without regulation'. Shortages of oil (in case of high demand by very large producers) would make our lives harder, but the reality is that it still isn't a huge problem- the advantages of decentralized and localized resources. So, again, why would I want to talk to the NBB as part of a homebrewers' organization if I;m making fuel for my own use??? At 01:41 PM 11/26/2002 -0800, you wrote: Mark, Well, my post
[biofuels-biz] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hello; Good point about third world... I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid programs or the well-to-do. I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the profitability of restaurants. Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big business. My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less pleasant means). Best Regards Alex Landels Lots been written here about the potential of local-niche production and much besides. There are many local-type scenarios where the big guys won't be able to compete, not just on a price basis, there are often other factors at work. Growth in at least some of these areas is already quite rapid. On-farm production, especially from integrated farms rather than monocroppers, is another such case, also growing rapidly. Costs can be essentially zero, and direct costs aside, on-farm economics will tend to keep outside stuff outside, no benefit. It doesn't just depend on WVO availability, though that's a few billion gallons a year in the US. In most industrialized countries collection levels are about 10%. It's unlikely to be optimized, no matter how valuable it gets or how much the Big Guys might be after it, unless collection starts at the local level, at point of production. This applies to virtually all waste recycling. And it leaves plenty of scope for small-scale operators and DIYers who're also working at that level. Take a closer look at some of the things in Mark's post about local-level initiatives. Much also been written about Big Biodiesel, and people expecting to be brushed aside when the time comes. There could already be too much local stuff going on for that to happen quite so easily. If the sharks come too close they could get torn to pieces by piranhas. For a comparison, local farmers' markets and CSAs are growing apace, and there's absolutely nothing that big agribiz interests can do about it, much as I'm sure they'd like to. The USDA organic standards a few posts have mentioned were such an attempt, but very many real organic farms have simply opted out and continue dealing with their local markets without any problems. This is also capitalism at work, you know - more so than big, centralized corporatism is, and it's more American anyway. Best Keith Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] RE: Thor's post and others re: opening the industry
I truly appreciate the great effort of Thor and many others in providing sound suggestions on how to improve the relationship between small producers, the NBB and the commercial side of the industry. I have been funneling these to individuals in the industry and NBB whom I think are most receptive to new ideas and to change. I can't and don't speak for the industry but from my personal perspective, I believe that some valid criticisms have been levied and excellent improvements proposed. I apologize that I have not been doing a better job of addressing many of the specific points made but I simply cannot keep up with the prolific nature of this group. After some experience here, I have a much better understanding of the efforts that are being made to make top-quality fuel. I also think I should provide some more details regarding my perspective on homebrew (and should have been more careful about sweeping statements in the first place). While I do nothing but biodiesel 40-70 hours/week, I have not seen any significant problems result from the use of homebrew. There are concerns but these are primarily perception rather than experience. That said, I think the more that is done for quality control for everyone involved in the production and distribution of biodiesel, the better. So I hope that everyone's input and effort on these fronts yields results. Happy Trails, Graham Good on you Graham, thankyou. :-) ... but I simply cannot keep up with the prolific nature of this group. Yes indeed - we all have this problem. Please try to make an effort though, this is an important discussion, and your role could be highly significant, especially in what you're saying about relaying info. Only 40-70 hours a week? Oh well, you have plenty of time then! Sorry just teasing - well, sort of. I think quite a few of us here work much longer hours than that. I do about 100, I think Todd and Mark might say something similar. These groups certainly take up more time than I can afford. I know Todd struggles with that. Many of us do. None of us has any resources. Industry has resources. Do you think it might be worth a rather small apportionment of such resources on the part of industry, the NBB or whatevr's suitable to provide time for people to interact with us here, and liaise with industry folks? Just a thought. Regards Keith Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuels-biz] [biofuel] Bio Fuel Business
[Cross-post from the Biofuel list.] (Dammit, I seem to have tied my arms in a knot at the elbows... - Keith) All the discussions about bio fuel business, inspired me to write the following piece for publishing on our web site. This is an early draft and I thought that the members of this list are the best ones for getting feedback. Hakan Possibilities of bio fuel business organization. - by Hakan Falk, Energy Saving Now. It is and has been some attempt to discuss bio fuel business on the bio fuel list at http://journeytoforever.org/ . The subject is very interesting and very important.. I am therefore try to putting down my thoughts about it, colored by my professional experiences. I have kept to ready to use technologies, since that is the only feasible for short and long term implementation. During the last 35 years I have been directly engaged in around 12 startups and consulting in some more. Of the 12 startups, 5 has been as employee and 7 in partnership with others. 10 of them have resulted in profitable businesses and 3 are still active on their own as small companies. The resulting 7 have in one way or other been taken over by a larger organization. The largest venture started with 3 founders 1978 and had 250 people with sales companies in 9 European countries, when it was sold to the world market leader 1982. The two failures was one where I only invested money and had no background to participate, I invested money in some friends fashion business. The other one was my last business and the financial/emotional losses was very large. It turned out that I had a dishonest partner and an auditor/advisor that were less than honest and this in a business environment that is both difficult and corrupted. Shortly said, I was taken for a ride. I have briefly given my background, so you will understand where I come from and be able to evaluate my analyses with that in your mind. I will in the following express my opinion of the market elements and the possible future, I want to tell you that renewable energy in some respects are already big businesses and will be huge. As example I want to mention the Danish Wind Mill generator business that started around 20 years ago and who is now market leaders in large generators and with more than 1 billion dollar in annual revenue and is only scratch the surface of the potential. The same can be said about Solar Power, but this business is spread on many suppliers. The PVC cell market is now mature enough for the large companies and you already see the Japanese emerging as potential market leaders. It is two fundamentally different businesses, one with large projects and few clients and the other one an end user market with many customers / installers and relatively few manufacturers. The traditional fossil fuel market, is a market with a few producers and a huge client base. It is dominated by a few companies who financed the prospecting and the needed large investments in production facilities. It is however not difficult to see that the traditional fossil fuel will have several severe price increases during the next two decades and cause more of what we now know as energy crises. The pressures will be tremendous on replacement fuels and energy efficiency. The Bio Fuel market is quite different than the mentioned markets. It will always be dependent on many small producers of the raw material and have to distribute to the same huge client base as fossil fuels. The bio fuel market can be divided in groups, depending on necessary production facilities and investments in those. The first division is based on the end use and will be transport, electricity and heating of buildings. Transport as the first group turns to be relational to engine technologies on short and medium term, namely gasoline or diesel engines. Hybrids will emerge, but they are also going to be divided into the same engine base. Small EV vehicles will start to emerge with a slow penetration and in typical city and short distance applications. The major battle ground on short and medium term will be around the gasoline and diesel technologies, or on bio fuel basis ethanol and bio diesel/SVO (Straight Vegetable oil). WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) will give a small contribution, but are more of a smart and profitable recycling method of waste, than a major part of covering the energy needs. Bio fuel or rather bio diesel or SVO will be the dominant replacement player in electricity generation. Because of its size, consumption and stationary nature, preheated SVO seems to be a logical choice. Hydrogen and fuel cells will be a high profile development but are not in a stage were it will be a major player on short and medium term. Electricity generation with diesel engines is a very large market and it is hard to see ethanol playing any significant part. Heating of buildings is a huge market that must play a very important part.
Re: [biofuels-biz] Homebrew problems
This brings up a question I';ve had for a while- are there other acids besides ffa, that are not water-soluble and are found in oils? We had some particularly terrible oil that titrated at 13 ml, and I just couldn't bring myself to believe that it was ffa causing the high values in the titration, as that restaurant always had decent oil before that particular sample. I tried doing what you're describing- washing the oil and pH testing the wash water and also re-titrating the oil layer to see if the acidity was something caused by water-solubles (vinegar from cooking, or acids from food rotting), and it seemed that it was still something insoluble, presumably ffa. thoughts? mark At 01:21 AM 11/27/2002 +, you wrote: The problems of quality of homebrew or commercial for that matter never seem to go away. As much as I would like to pretend that our bio is perfect, I want to share the latest of ours problems with the group in the hope that some one may benefit. I got a call that the fuel from the storage tank had clogged the filter on Tony's crane truck. Not with algae but with grease. Bear in mind that it been over 30¡C. I went over the process that Tony had been using. We had been concentrating on fine tuning the separators to continually remove the glycerol as it formed, the fuel was completely reacted and the temperature was over the melting points of our longest fatty acid esters. The problem had to come from the washing. Now washing is a brutal affair compared with bubble washing and getting the emulsion to break involves acidifying the water(slightly I would have hoped.). I ran some thick cream from the bottom drain of the storage tank and tested it for FFA's by mixing with neutral water and titrating the layers. The water remained neutral but the oil took ² ml of standard NaOH . I deduced that I was dealing with FFA's not an inorganic acid. After performing a number of trials using acid catalysis and the three alcohols on hand. I found that the controls using alcohol alone reduced the acid number and clarified the product. Addition of 5% of methanol without the addition of Sulphuric clarified the goop within 30 minutes at ambient temperature. We modified the post washing stage . Drying was achieved by heating the fuel to 115¡ while pumping from the bottom and spraying over the open top. As the dry fuel cooled to 60¡C 2% methanol was added and the lid closed for recirculating. Once cool, ~30¡C, this fuel was pumped across to the storage vat. I have neglected research on the washing stage, hopefully we can shorten this step as well. When the separators work well a 200l batch can be reacted and separated to completion in under an hour. I believe that the separators would have to spin much faster to be of use in post-wash separation. I have designed a simple vertical centrifuge to take the place of the dairy separators. If I get around to building it I'll post the results. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- áFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/9bTolB/TM -~- Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Methane Digestor
I know a local grad student who is as obsessed with methane digesters as I
am with biodiesel. ('cept that he's getting whatever grad students get in
financial aid for it and I rarely get anything and my topic of interest is
simpler).his name is Karl Hartmann at UC Davis in the agricultural
engineering department. His work is with crop wastes, not human waste,
though, although it all applies as far as I can tell.
Otherwise, I did hear of someone else's version of a human
waste-fueled methane digester that used a marine toilet (macerator toilet,
yup, it does what you think it does, grind up poop into little itty bitty
pieces) in place of the house's conventional toilet. it';s probably more
energy-intensive to go out and buy and electrify a macerator (they are 12 v
though) than, say, composting human waste as a way to deal with it, but
getting energy from the stuff is enticing to geeks like us no doubt.
At 01:01 AM 11/26/2002 +0100, you wrote:
I made some info available for download a while ago and
it is still there,
http://energy.saving.nu/bagdigesters/http://energy.saving.nu/bagdigesters/
Hakan
At 04:07 PM 11/25/2002 -0500, you wrote:
Hello,
We have a constructed wetland at our school that processes our sewage from
roughly 70 people. The system has a settling tank where solids are
seperated out before sending the fluid waste into the wetland
gardens. Every year or so, the solids build up and need to be pumped
out. I am wondering if anyone knows if there is a way to build a digestor
to be able to extract methane from the solid waste? I have seen systems
in Cuba using cow manure, but never with human waste. Any ideas?
thanks,
jk
Jack Kenworthy
Sustainable Systems Director
The Cape Eleuthera Island School
242-359-7625 ph. 242-359-7697 fax
www.islandschool.org
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[biofuel] Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Its unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers. And I am not interested in seeing a homebrewer association or whatever, nor certification, nor regulations about homebrew. 'Regulation' or standardization of our practices has to come from us, and be voluntary, and it's come from us quite successfully so far. We're working out our own education, with no thanks to industry, government, (well, maybe in the form of university studies that we've learned from), nor capitalism in general. I've heard rumors at one point that there is a certification program that's been discussed at DOE at one point or another, and it was supposed to be for our own good, to educate us about process and to supposedly keep us from blowing ourselves up or whatnot. But the safety info that I teach didn't come from any government certification program, and I'm sure it's sticking in students' minds- and the existence of these classes and the info covered comes straight from the homebrewers- no certifiers, government studies, or whatever, were needed for something like my class to come about. Classes like I teach are an organic outgrowth of the homebrew movement. I've written about this elsewhere- I'm scared sh*tless about what a certification program or other regulations for homebrewers could lead to- I;ve seen it in the original set of proposed USDA Organic Standards, and the insane fight we had to put up to keep the worst of that program from being inflicted on us. And the originally proposed USDA Organic Standards were a result of the organic foods growers' very well-intentioned request for standardizing and federal-izing something that the organic movement and (independently run, nongovernment) state organics organizations were doing a fine job of regulating. But organic food became more mainstream, and more money was to be had in it, and someone did a dumb thing and asked the government to step in to protect their market from a perceived threat. And next thing you knew, here was the proposed USDA standards, the terrible, flawed process that brought them about, and the painful battle the grassroots movement had to fight to stop the outrageous things that big industry snuck in there- (toxic sludge is organic if neccessary, gmo's are organic if necessary, pesticides are organic if necessary, irradiation (yup, if necessary!), and more... and a ban on labeling food in any manner that gives the impression that the label is a 'higher standard' than USDA organic (invalidating labeling food produced with established practices like biodynamic, for instance)) so this kind of talk of
[biofuel] Direct Democracy
I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following... Direct Democracy Teledemocracy ö E-Democracy Our present brand of ÎRepresentativeâ democracy has failed the environment and will continue to fail it if the system is not changed. Representative government puts almost complete power into the hands small elite groups - the politicians. During the period of office this group is in effect a dictatorship, with no citizen involvement in policy making decisions. But policy is effected by that other elite group, the vested interests, who invariably have the funds available to sway policy decisions in their favour. This present scenario is particularly dangerous for the environment as it is from the most powerful vested interests that the worst environmental damage invariably comes. The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform government to include the voices of citizens in the policy making process. The Past The key to our freedom ~ to our fair representation ~ has always been the awesome power of our unity.But, words like connectivity, votable forums and interactivity were alien to us. So, with no means to unite, we have remained fractured societies of slaves to the powerful. As things were, there was absolutely NOTHING any one of us could have done to affect meaningful change. In fact, we'd been so skilfully divided and conquered that, today, many of us actually believe our governments ARE democracies and that better ways to govern are impossible! These unfortunate misconceptions are products of generations of highly effective propaganda. The Future The Internet has changed everything!Now, for the first time in the history of civilization, we have the technology to create an interactive media capable of facilitating True Democracy.This affordable global connectivity provides the facility to promote our best ideas, adopt our solutions and orchestrate their accomplishment.At long last, we are equipped to unite. We're the first generation with the means to become the imperative voice of reason. James Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Please suggest me
Hi everybody, I'm a M.Sc. student from Thailand. Now I'm preparing to study abroad for Ph.D. program, but I still don't know which university I should to apply. My research interest focus on plant biomass conversion to produce ethanol as transportation fuel. I use fermentation process to convert plant raw materials into ethanol. If anyone has good advice about universities (any country), please help me. It will be a good choice to apply for Ph.D. program. Many thanks, Supaporn ^___^ - Do you Yahoo!? Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] questions about yield
When using WVO this will depend, as Ken suggested, on the quantity of animal fat in your collected oil. Let the WVO settle into 2 layers and only use the top, translucent layer. The bottom layer will be mostly animal fat with a small amount of free fatty acid and is only useful for heating and specially converted vehicles Paddy Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Direct Democracy
Hello James We're the first generation with the means to become the imperative voice of reason. I dunno, the community-at-large could always mosey on down to parly or congress or whatever and reason with the buggers with a club, LOL! And then take over and do just the same, or worse. :-( I remember a long conversation, or actually an increasingly heated argument, one evening in London about teledemocracy, or electronic democracy, and how it could be real democracy for the first time. Mixed crowd of people from various countries, about half of them English. I think I may have started it by saying the average worker on a Chinese commune had more say over what affected him in his daily life than the average Englishman did with his one vote every four years. This didn't go down very well with some of the English especially, somehow, and then the idea of teledemocracy came up. Some of us saw it as the first real answer, others as the end of all things democratic. That was in 1979. Makes you think. I still think it's the answer, or it could be. It requires careful implementation and careful maintenance. Perhaps that too is best developed via teledemocracy. I agree with your analysis. It's unlikely to be embraced with joyous welcome by the incumbents, nor by the interests that make the big campaign donations. That really is the issue, eh? Long live Granny D (though she has already), and strength to her arm. Any signs of these two campaigns combining their efforts? Teledemocracy and campaign finance reform? Perthaps they should. I also agreed with your comment on the statement by FoE's Tony Juniper. They should get into this. Regards Keith I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following... Direct Democracy Teledemocracy ö E-Democracy Our present brand of ÎRepresentativeâ democracy has failed the environment and will continue to fail it if the system is not changed. Representative government puts almost complete power into the hands small elite groups - the politicians. During the period of office this group is in effect a dictatorship, with no citizen involvement in policy making decisions. But policy is effected by that other elite group, the vested interests, who invariably have the funds available to sway policy decisions in their favour. This present scenario is particularly dangerous for the environment as it is from the most powerful vested interests that the worst environmental damage invariably comes. The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform government to include the voices of citizens in the policy making process. The Past The key to our freedom ~ to our fair representation ~ has always been the awesome power of our unity.But, words like connectivity, votable forums and interactivity were alien to us. So, with no means to unite, we have remained fractured societies of slaves to the powerful. As things were, there was absolutely NOTHING any one of us could have done to affect meaningful change. In fact, we'd been so skilfully divided and conquered that, today, many of us actually believe our governments ARE democracies and that better ways to govern are impossible! These unfortunate misconceptions are products of generations of highly effective propaganda. The Future The Internet has changed everything!Now, for the first time in the history of civilization, we have the technology to create an interactive media capable of facilitating True Democracy.This affordable global connectivity provides the facility to promote our best ideas, adopt our solutions and orchestrate their accomplishment.At long last, we are equipped to unite. We're the first generation with the means to become the imperative voice of reason. James Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Forests - was [biofuel] Re: Back Online
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see your point Motie, but I do think you're being a bit one- sided. I must admit to that possability. I've been sampling a bit of 'Lawn mower fuel' that came out particularly well. I think you can assign blame in three directions, probably with not much to choose between them: wrong-headed environmentalists, large-scale commercial logging concerns, and bureaucrats. May I distribute the blame among these 3 as I see it from my local perspective? 90% air-headed 'Environmentalists, 8% high-level Bureaucrats, 2% Big Loggers who have failed to refute mis-information about themselves, despite their best efforts. Small Independant Loggers don't even get an honorable mention, and are in fact a major key to any solution. None is blame-free, and on the other hand, all have their points Many of them under their Hats - none is entirely evil or foolish either. I'll concur that none are deliberately evil. 'Foolish' is highly debatable. Somehow they've managed to get themselves into the worst possible relationship with each other, with the forests and the public being the victims. Professional Loggers, both Big and Small, have had a good working relationship with Professional Forestry Agents to the benefit of the public and the Forests for many years. 'Environmentalists' with little knowledge and much dis/mis-information have exerted political pressure to high-level Bureaucrats and politicians to the detriment of all. Not unusual. Unfortunately, I agreee. Similarly, you won't find solutions by excluding any of the three, and I perceive that you'd like to exclude the environmentalists, and perhaps less so the bureaucrats. None of the 3 can be excluded, and I think the Small Independant Logger also needs to be included, as they are the real key to a workable solution. In my opinion, their needs to be a distinction between high-level Bureaucrats and the local Foresters. I see the problem as being between 'Environmentalists' and the well-being of our Forests. The Loggers and the Bureaucrats are caught in the middle. None of the concerned parties wants to deliberately destroy the Forests. Loggers and professional Foresters KNOW what they are doing. The 'Environmentalists' may have the best of intentions, but are near- totally ignorant about the issues involved. High-level Bureaucrats are next in line in factual knowledge, and therefore are more easily susceptible to mis-information spread by activists. They are also more concerned with their careers than the health of the Forests, and are willing to do anything to appease those who may put a black mark in their record. Much experience elsewhere has shown that if you do that, the bureaucrats and commercial concerns will between them make the situation far worse than it is now. The Environmentalists have too much political clout to be forcefully excluded.(And honestly legitimate concerns) They need to be educated as to the harm they are doing in their ignorance. The high-level Bureaucrats will go along with whichever direction seems to be in the best interests of their career. Taking all the rules away and letting in the loggers is not the solution, and there's a rather huge amount of unfortunate evidence to hand to attest to that. I've never proposed taking all the rules away. I just think that the rules should be based on factual needs of the forest, by professional Foresters, not by a bunch of activists without a clue. Forests need management. What you describe is mismanagement or no management. No excuse for that, plenty of experience available on good forest management. That is exactly my point. The current situation is run on rules made to appease a bunch of activists with NO background in forest management. Despite the common perception, Loggers, many into the 3rd generation, have no intention to 'destroy' the forests they make their living from, and are highly annoyed when 'Environmentalists with no knowledge of proper management practices are making all the rules to the severe detriment to the forests. One thing that's emerged most clearly from forest work in 3rd World countries is that successful projects very much include the involvement at all levels of the local communities. Local communities who rely on the forests for a living, have little input into National Forest Policies. The policy decisions are made by high-level Bureaucrats who are attempting to appease activists. Most of these Bureaucrats have little or no background in Forestry, and are therefore easily misled by popular misperceptions. They are administrators and political appointees, NOT Forestry Experts. Otherwise it doesn't work, simple as that. How to go about this is no secret, plenty of good info and good people available, who've learnt the hard way. We are up against the 'Pimentel's of Forestry' who are
[biofuel] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
Hi Mark Jolly good rant, thankyou! :-) Yes, yes, and also yes - very good points you make. I'm grateful for the useful distinction between homebrewers and small producers. We're perhaps a bit too used to thinking of them as the same people, as they used to be mostly I guess, and many still are. I've noticed some of the differences you point to, not the way homebrewers generally behave. I've also been rather startled at some of the ambitious plans by people with no experience at all. Often they make the right sort of noises, but it's fairly clear what attracts them: they'll be small producers for exactly as long as it takes them to swell into big producers. And don't get in the way. There have been signs of that same fever affecting some of the homebrewer crowd too. I like Todd's type of thinking: growth, sure, but not in order to become a mega-anything. Growth means you can set up another local production somewhere else - spawn rather than swell. What makes the difference is probably empowerment, as you say, and decentralized alternatives. We've also seen a need to re-examine our priorities, and indeed we no longer see our role as promoting biofuels use in general, wherever, however and by whomsoever, as in the past. We come back to where we started, which is that we're primarily a 3rd World project, an appropriate technology project. The technology development we've talked of certainly benefits what you can do with biofuels in a 3rd World rural community, as opposed to say three years ago, or in any rural community, or farm, or neighbourhood or back-yard - we don't see appropriate technology as something for only the 3rd World. So that's where we're focusing our biofuels efforts, on community self-reliance, and community and individual empowerment, whether in 3rd World communities or in New York or Osaka. Same as with our other projects. That doesn't mean we're necessarily against corporations and the big, centralized approach, not at all, we're happy to work with them - but not FOR them, and where they work against community self-reliance and empowerment, as they do, whether by design or neglect, we'll work to counter that. Graham's very strange idea that biofuelers who don't support World Energy, the NBB and Big Soy are anti-biofuels really made me laugh. Bit of a wry laugh though, kind of sad really. I do hope Graham is following all these discussions and taking it all aboard. If not, what a waste. On his part, that is, not a waste at all otherwise, excellent discussion, IMO. Regards Keith Oops, I think I'm about to rant, and it's gonna be long. my comments interspersed between two different writers' posts: thor: And homebrewers/small producers, IMO need to organize to present a coherent voice. Its unrealistic to expect the NBB to treat with hundreds of independent producers individually. Mark: One thing I've been learning lately is that the biodiesel movement is diversifying, you used to expect do-it-yourself people to both teach about homebrew, and do general education about emissions and benefits of biodiesel use, etc... and there's now enough people doing this work of publicising the stuff that we can be specialists. I don't even bother to talk about why you should use biodiesel , when I do my classes for homebrewers, unless I'm asked. Now, would someone please remind me why I should as a homebrewer have to deal with the NBB They are irrelevant to my life as a homebrewer, I certainly don't need them. They certainly are trying to get our (and the general public's) support, through their new registry of biodiesel organizations, and the very silly Biodiesel Boosters registry. What's in it for us, after I've been reading things about how bad homebrew is on their website since 1998 or whenever it was? But more importantly for me, as it's less obvious to most people- since when are small producers and homebrewers lumped together on one team? People certainly go from being the latter to the former, but a lot of folks are all excited about starting small producer businesses without having made a liter of homebrew first. It's important to realize that we are not the same, there's not this big industry vs homebrewersandsmallproducers thing, we have three separate agendas that may or may not overlap. case in point: I've met a good number of people since the relaxing of government regs here, who have a huge glimmer in their eyes and are seeing big bucks in the potential of an easy-to-enter energy market (relatively speaking, it is easy to make biodiesel, not anywhere as easy or low investment to make other forms of energy to sell.) I think a bunch of the would-be small producers I've met are good people, but I see a major distinction between them and homebrewers, and am starting to refine my mission, and recognize where my allegiances lie- with the svo'ers and the homebrewers, who are not the same as small producers. And I am not
Re: [biofuel] wvo
we skim the top layer off, siphon down to about 3 or 4 inches from the bottom of the barrel. really depends on the source and how long ago they completely emptied the barrel. we use an electric pump with a filter on the siphon end, that prevents us from picking up gunk. Steve Spence Subscribe to the Renewable Energy Newsletter Discussion Boards. Read about Sustainable Technology: http://www.green-trust.org [EMAIL PROTECTED] - Original Message - From: Robby Davenport [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Monday, November 25, 2002 10:56 PM Subject: [biofuel] wvo I have not yet started with making or using wvo as fuel . one of the things I would like to know is in my situation I will have to take all of the waste that is in the waste oil container . What is typical ; I have read most of you pull off the top . Apparently to avoid the solids on the bottom and that really interesting layer that is really funky on the bottom. any suggestions or ideas? thanks Robert Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- áFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Fwd: Ethanol From Roots
Interesting. Date: Tue, 26 Nov 2002 02:07:16 + From: Bill Jones [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Homestead mailing list [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Ethanol From Roots Lately I've been growing kefir culture on inulin-containing roots like yacon, with the goal of producing distilled ethanol. Kefir could be called sourdough of milk since it's the same sort of thing, a mixture of yeast and bacteria. Kefir yeast don't especially like starch, like Saccharomyces, but instead specialize in lactose. It turns out they're also great at digesting at inulin, the starch-like polymer of fructose that occurs in the roots of virtually all the members of the sunflower family: chicory, jerusalem artichoke, salsify, dandelion, elecampane, yacon, etc. The main challenge in producing ethanol is not to use more energy in processing than can be obtained from the resulting fuel. Using kefir yeast allows you to omit the long baking step that's required to make, say, tequila from the agave, another inulin producer. It may be no good for flavor, but fine for distillation into fuel. The next main problem is how to pay for all those little packets of yeast. And where the heck do I buy Kluyvermyces marxianus? Just recently I adapted the hop yeast technique for purifying kefir yeast. It all works exactly the same way. I made a batch of hop yacon kefir a few weeks ago, but I was too busy to do much experimenting. That was before I harvested yacon, so it was canned, hydrolyzed yacon (which even wine yeast take to). Last night I recreated the kefir culture just as I did for the sourdough, buy mixing some old hop yacon kefir and and sour yacon kefir into a new batch of pureed yacon. As of this morning, the new yacon kefir smells perfectly normal, as does the sourdough. The only remaining question is whether certain organic compounds in plants like elecampane will inhibit yeast growth. The last step that used to stand in the way to the ethanol revolution was the repeated distillation. Once again, the challenge is not to use too much energy. Solar distillation is quite easy, but it's difficult to control the amount of water that also distills out. Enter the zeolite filter. Zeolite filters can easily separate water and ethanol, producing a 199 proof product on the first run. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ·FREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following... Direct Democracy There is no way I will ever support Mob Rule, over Rule of Law. Short and Simple answer. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- áFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Back Online
Actually, what I meant was the old fashioned, small operation that used horse or mule power to move 1 tree at a time, so no big trucks need anywhere near the cottage. Compost toilets are code. There are now office buildings in big cities that use them, so no septic system needed. In most areas, using a cistern and collecting the roof water would work, no well needed. Straw bale, cob and papercrete are all becoming or are code, so no big dollars needed. The whole idea is to get healthy, reasonable, lifestyles for those who just don't fit, not one size fits all - which doesn't actually fit anyone. Bright Blessings, Kim motie_d wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not only is Mother Nature in deep s___t, but we as a society are. I often wish we could put back the old wood cutters cottages, in the National forests, for the people that just don't fit our modern society. They could be very useful to the rest of us and be much happier, themselves. Bright Blessings, Kim Kim, I don't think that was a serious proposal, but I'll comment anyway. In order to comply with all the environmental regulations concerning our National Forests, we would need to spend many thousands of dollars on Environmental Impact Studies, being sure to include the needed access road for the heavy trucks to get in to do soil-boring samples before allowing a Septic system or Well to be drilled. Outhouses and hand-dug Wells are not acceptable anymore. Then to build a 'cottage' to current building standards. Top of the head estimate...10 years time and $200,000 for a 10X12 foot shack. LOL Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] BD Business and Ability to be Profitable--
I am beginning to think that the reason Americans accept rape and pillage of other countries, is that so many of them work for large corporations where the CEOs and other swinging dicks rape and pillage the companies and the working man gets squat. I guess if you live with it, on a daily basis, and have never known anything else, then you wonder what the big deal is. Perhaps if we could figure out some sort of program, to show them there actually is an alternative Something like what Canada did years ago - Grade 6 students from the most violent parts of Ireland were brought to Canada to spend the entire summer, to live in peace. I believe they continued this practice for at least 10 years. I would like to believe that this has something to do with the improvement of conditions in Ireland. How to apply this to the workforce of America is a mind boggling task, but I don't believe that Americans are actually evil, they are lied to on a daily basis. Bright Blessings, Kim Keith Addison wrote: On the basis of this reasoning, it would then be best to eradicate small farms and small farmers, for instance, and have it all replaced by more efficient industrialized farming. Only it hasn't quite worked out that way. What you tend to get instead is less efficiency, or no efficiency, with large-scale externalizations, a poor product, and unhappy (or dead) consumers. Exaggeration? From the 1930's to the 1960's the free-range system was the popular way to raise poultry in the United states. It produced meaty, tender birds at a reasonable cost, using a reasonable amount of labor and providing valuable fertility to the land. Many farmers raised 10,000-20,000 birds per year on short-grass pasture (range), both chickens and turkeys. With the rise of industrial agriculture and the development of the confinement broiler barn, this sustainable and profitable system was discontinued by means of withdrawing growers contracts. Left with no market or processing facilities the practice was abandoned within two or three years. But the way it's been presented to the world is that the old ways were less efficient. Actually they were more efficient, in more ways than one, lacking, for instance, this current feature of the efficient industrialized poultry production systems: We don't need terrorists, we have industrial food suppliers. Or is it possible that turkeys have become the weapon of choice for terrorists? How can we call a food system sustainable that sickens an estimated 1.3 million Americans, hospitalizes 15,000, and kills 500 just from Salmonella every year? Maybe it would be a good time to switch to something besides a commercial turkey for Thanksgiving dinner. http://www.cspinet.org/new/200211211.html Let alone the manure lakes, groundwater pollution, etc etc etc. In France, for instance, in 2000, over 20% of all poultry (90 million birds) was profitably, cleanly and safely raised using the old free-range system. Small-scale capitalism used to be the backbone of America. There's no evidence that its replacement by large-scale, centralized corporatization has brought any improvements, rather the contrary. Big ain't beautiful. If you're looking for particular examples of small being both beautiful and profitable in the biodiesel field, you'd perhaps be finding rather more of them had not small producers been threatened with $25,000-per-day fines and told they had to pay $1 million-plus testing costs or else. Now quite a number of people are planning small-scale start-ups, seem to be happy with their business plans, and should soon be testing the waters at the EPA since they changed their tune. It seems large producers, on the other hand, can't compete without continued soy subsidies, at the taxpayer's expense, and the continuance of a hopelessly uneconomic and unsustainable commodities overproduction system. The pricing structure of one such producer (?), examined here recently, would not seem to leave any justification for their support. Of course public policy folks will not be rushing to support the decentralization of energy supply that is the only path to a sustainable energy future, regardless of the feedstock. That doesn't mean *only* small and local and *no* big and central, but it does mean an end to *only* big and central. There's room for both, and if there isn't then room will have to be made. Best Keith Hello again. One charge that I have heard public policy folks levy at small producers is along the following lines: Small producers can't make their production business really profitable, so they're not going to be able to contribute significantly to mass-market conversion from fossil fuels to biofuels... Therefore, since our policy goal is to maximize the use of cleaner domestically produced fuels, when considering policy and public support for BD, we'll
Re: [biofuel] Direct Democracy
I agree with your analysis. It's unlikely to ... Phew! That's a relief. (seriously) J Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Direct Democracy
..the interests that make the big campaign donations. Any signs of these two campaigns combining their efforts? Teledemocracy and campaign finance reform? Perthaps they should. cfr would be a good platform. We'd need someone to to prepare a blueprint for the operation. Not me. Out of my league sorry to say. What about you? J Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Stars in their eyes
Hello; Good point about third world... I can see the time when bio diesel will be marketed as a 'super' fuel and will priced accordingly--simple marketing dynamics. The only ones who will be able to afford it will be the very poor through aid programs or the well-to-do. I base this on my belief that raw fuel stocks such as WVO will become commodities-especially by the bigger chains McDonald'scDonalds-that can improve the profitability of restaurants. Oil is big business and when its demise comes bio diesel will be big business. My advise to the small producers is enjoy the present and be prepared to be eaten by the sharks( via buy outs or other less pleasant means). Best Regards Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] electrical pump
I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO. My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions? John Venema Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- 4 DVDs Free +sp Join Now http://us.click.yahoo.com/pt6YBB/NXiEAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] electrical pump
I see a lot of those things on ebay. Are you talking about 12V or 120V? --- Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: John Venema [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:32 AM Subject: [biofuel] electrical pump I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO. My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions? John Venema Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Biodiesel from coconut oil (south pacific electricity generation)
Thanks to all for the input. Lots to read up on. BTW, one obstacle to overcome for this particular producer is insurance on the generating engines. They tend to have strict clauses about fuel sources for their engines (whether or not the fuel actually meets any standards level). All this is just education of course. Thanks again, I'll be back... Eric. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] When you're a Geek and know what a computer can do .... You vote no Was: Direct Democracy
The problem with that system would be ... who would be the system administrator of such a system??? The Admin would have almost Godlike powers since, being in charge of how votes are processes, would be able to make anyone he chooses ... win the elections. And then later, through the media ahem explain why the dude won. I don't think I like the idea of having one single person (or two or three guys) control what the will of the people is. You think power is concentrated NOW ... you try wait until system administrator's got the power to elect or not elect at the click of a mouse. Nope, not me, Curtis Computer Geek Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following... Direct Democracy Teledemocracy - E-Democracy .The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform government to include the voices of citizens in the policy making process. - Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Fwd: [biofuel] electrical pump
Begin forwarded message: From: Edward Beggs [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Tue Nov 26, 2002 10:35:40 AM America/Vancouver To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [biofuel] electrical pump We have one listed on our site that is 12 or 24V and can be used for heavy oils. There is a screen on the inlet, and even fuel station style dispensing nozzle (shutoff). Edward Beggs Neoteric Biofuels Inc British Columbia, Canada http://www.biofuels.ca On Tuesday, November 26, 2002, at 08:47 AM, studio53 wrote: I see a lot of those things on ebay. Are you talking about 12V or 120V? -- - Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: John Venema [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 11:32 AM Subject: [biofuel] electrical pump I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO. My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions? John Venema Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: Forests - was [biofuel] Re: Back Online
Hey wait, this is starting to remind men of the BD BIG/small producers ;-) BTW, sustainable small logging operations are awesome! I applaude them. On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, motie_d wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I see your point Motie, but I do think you're being a bit one- sided. I must admit to that possability. I've been sampling a bit of 'Lawn mower fuel' that came out particularly well. I think you can assign blame in three directions, probably with not much to choose between them: wrong-headed environmentalists, large-scale commercial logging concerns, and bureaucrats. May I distribute the blame among these 3 as I see it from my local perspective? 90% air-headed 'Environmentalists, 8% high-level Bureaucrats, 2% Big Loggers who have failed to refute mis-information about themselves, despite their best efforts. Small Independant Loggers don't even get an honorable mention, and are in fact a major key to any solution. None is blame-free, and on the other hand, all have their points Many of them under their Hats - none is entirely evil or foolish either. I'll concur that none are deliberately evil. 'Foolish' is highly debatable. Somehow they've managed to get themselves into the worst possible relationship with each other, with the forests and the public being the victims. Professional Loggers, both Big and Small, have had a good working relationship with Professional Forestry Agents to the benefit of the public and the Forests for many years. 'Environmentalists' with little knowledge and much dis/mis-information have exerted political pressure to high-level Bureaucrats and politicians to the detriment of all. Not unusual. Unfortunately, I agreee. Similarly, you won't find solutions by excluding any of the three, and I perceive that you'd like to exclude the environmentalists, and perhaps less so the bureaucrats. None of the 3 can be excluded, and I think the Small Independant Logger also needs to be included, as they are the real key to a workable solution. In my opinion, their needs to be a distinction between high-level Bureaucrats and the local Foresters. I see the problem as being between 'Environmentalists' and the well-being of our Forests. The Loggers and the Bureaucrats are caught in the middle. None of the concerned parties wants to deliberately destroy the Forests. Loggers and professional Foresters KNOW what they are doing. The 'Environmentalists' may have the best of intentions, but are near- totally ignorant about the issues involved. High-level Bureaucrats are next in line in factual knowledge, and therefore are more easily susceptible to mis-information spread by activists. They are also more concerned with their careers than the health of the Forests, and are willing to do anything to appease those who may put a black mark in their record. Much experience elsewhere has shown that if you do that, the bureaucrats and commercial concerns will between them make the situation far worse than it is now. The Environmentalists have too much political clout to be forcefully excluded.(And honestly legitimate concerns) They need to be educated as to the harm they are doing in their ignorance. The high-level Bureaucrats will go along with whichever direction seems to be in the best interests of their career. Taking all the rules away and letting in the loggers is not the solution, and there's a rather huge amount of unfortunate evidence to hand to attest to that. I've never proposed taking all the rules away. I just think that the rules should be based on factual needs of the forest, by professional Foresters, not by a bunch of activists without a clue. Forests need management. What you describe is mismanagement or no management. No excuse for that, plenty of experience available on good forest management. That is exactly my point. The current situation is run on rules made to appease a bunch of activists with NO background in forest management. Despite the common perception, Loggers, many into the 3rd generation, have no intention to 'destroy' the forests they make their living from, and are highly annoyed when 'Environmentalists with no knowledge of proper management practices are making all the rules to the severe detriment to the forests. One thing that's emerged most clearly from forest work in 3rd World countries is that successful projects very much include the involvement at all levels of the local communities. Local communities who rely on the forests for a living, have little input into National Forest Policies. The policy decisions are made by high-level Bureaucrats who are attempting to appease activists. Most of these Bureaucrats have little or no background in Forestry, and are therefore easily misled by popular misperceptions. They are administrators and political appointees,
RE: [biofuel] electrical pump
Hello John I would suggest an used engine oil pump from a junk yard, some of them comes with a coarse filter, over it if you wish, you could add a metalic mesh in front of it and an electrical drill to drive the pump. Regards Juan You wrote: I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO. My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions? John Venema Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] When you're a Geek and know what a computer can do .... You vote no Was: Direct Democracy
ah, unless it's an embedded system . ;) On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, csakima wrote: The problem with that system would be ... who would be the system administrator of such a system??? The Admin would have almost Godlike powers since, being in charge of how votes are processes, would be able to make anyone he chooses ... win the elections. And then later, through the media ahem explain why the dude won. I don't think I like the idea of having one single person (or two or three guys) control what the will of the people is. You think power is concentrated NOW ... you try wait until system administrator's got the power to elect or not elect at the click of a mouse. Nope, not me, Curtis Computer Geek Get your free newsletter at http://www.ezinfocenter.com/3122155/NL - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following... Direct Democracy Teledemocracy - E-Democracy .The teledemocracy movement seeks to reform government to include the voices of citizens in the policy making process. - Introducing NetZero Long Distance 1st month Free! Sign up today at: www.netzerolongdistance.com Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Back Online
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Kim Garth Travis [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Actually, what I meant was the old fashioned, small operation that used horse or mule power to move 1 tree at a time, so no big trucks need anywhere near the cottage. Compost toilets are code. There are now office buildings in big cities that use them, so no septic system needed. In most areas, using a cistern and collecting the roof water would work, no well needed. Straw bale, cob and papercrete are all becoming or are code, so no big dollars needed. The whole idea is to get healthy, reasonable, lifestyles for those who just don't fit, not one size fits all - which doesn't actually fit anyone. Bright Blessings, Kim Kim, Thanks for your reply. You may have a workable solution. I can't make it a high priority, but I will further investigate the possibilties. My Mother has spent the last couple of summers with me, and felt she was imposing on us, and wanted to park a small trailer house at my place for her summer use. The County won't allow me to connect electric or water to it, unless I subdivide my land into parcels. The trailer house has to have it's own plot at least 2 1/2 acres in size, and it's own separate Septic sewer system to be Permitted as a Residence. The current Permit lists it as a Storage Shed! We joke that the County has made my aged Mother homeless and forced her to sleep in a storage shed in my back yard. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
RE: [biofuel] electrical pump
and there is this: http://www.pumps-ez.com/pumps/0056064_0056064_1.html the list seems extensive. James Slayden On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Juan Boveda wrote: Hello John I would suggest an used engine oil pump from a junk yard, some of them comes with a coarse filter, over it if you wish, you could add a metalic mesh in front of it and an electrical drill to drive the pump. Regards Juan You wrote: I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO. My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions? John Venema Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ·FREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
There should be some test of minimal mental competence before people can vote and those who do not know the difference between a mob and a society of responsible citizens would fail the test. POC On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, motie_d wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following... Direct Democracy There is no way I will ever support Mob Rule, over Rule of Law. Short and Simple answer. Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ·FREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
milliontc writes: I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following... Direct Democracy I think direct democracy is a terrible idea. People are already too poorly informed to vote knowledgeably on the 10 or so ballot initiatives we have every election here in California. Do you want every complex issue decided by every schmoe with a remote control? Do you have time to study and vote in an informed way on _every_ issue that comes up? Do you think the average person does? To understand the details of the laws as they are proposed? Big money is already corrupting the once-populist ballot initiative process, soon it will be as bad as the campaigns that candidates run. In a true direct democracy, laws would be sold like soft drinks. There is no way the mass market could be conducive to a real debate on the issues. The solution is to reform the election process. Representative democracy is the only way to run a complex society in a way which can be both effective and responsive to the people. As has been observed by many including Churchill, [representative] democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried. -- Kelsey Jordahl Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There should be some test of minimal mental competence before people can vote and those who do not know the difference between a mob and a society of responsible citizens would fail the test. POC Perhaps you can clarify the distinctions for us? In my opinion, a society of responsible citizens should be able to have some agreed-on rules to live by, instead of arbitrary decisions with no continuity. We'd have to live our lives conducting Polls to figure out what is acceptable today. I prefer to have the rules known in advance, and expect people to stay within them. These rules are called laws. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
The Swiss have had direct democracy for over 100 years and only have about 3 referenda per year though they can have as many as they want. Responsible democratic citizens are not so stupid as to change the laws every day. POC On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, motie_d wrote: --- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: There should be some test of minimal mental competence before people can vote and those who do not know the difference between a mob and a society of responsible citizens would fail the test. POC Perhaps you can clarify the distinctions for us? In my opinion, a society of responsible citizens should be able to have some agreed-on rules to live by, instead of arbitrary decisions with no continuity. We'd have to live our lives conducting Polls to figure out what is acceptable today. I prefer to have the rules known in advance, and expect people to stay within them. These rules are called laws. Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Swiss have had direct democracy for over 100 years and only have about 3 referenda per year though they can have as many as they want. Responsible democratic citizens are not so stupid as to change the laws every day. POC They also have government provided Assault Rifles in every home. When you get our government to provide me with an Assault Rifle, I'll give your idea more consideration. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- áFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
Not to be patranizing or anything, but, why don't you provide your own? Alot of people in the U.S. do. All Swiss able bodied males are expected to serve in the armed forces for a time and from then on are reserve. They are still expected to drill and practice every so often with thoes rifles. We are not. Would you be willing to put in the extra time and effort? Greg H. - Original Message - From: motie_d [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 16:12 Subject: [biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy They also have government provided Assault Rifles in every home. When you get our government to provide me with an Assault Rifle, I'll give your idea more consideration. Motie Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- áFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Party of Citizens [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: The Swiss have had direct democracy for over 100 years and only have about 3 referenda per year though they can have as many as they want. Responsible democratic citizens are not so stupid as to change the laws every day. POC They also have government provided Assault Rifles in every home. When you get our government to provide me with an Assault Rifle, I'll give your idea more consideration. Motie Sorry, Motie, but trust an American to see the whole complicated Swiss set-up in terms of guns, first and foremost. The Swiss certainly don't see it that way. I believe most Swiss would see your comment on their democratic set-up as bizarre. I've spent time there and never heard anyone even mentioning guns. Same in Sweden, same in Holland, etc etc - they just don't talk about it, no big secret, of course defence is important but it's no big deal. The US gun issue doesn't exist there. But for you it's an issue. In fact the Swiss comparison is a most pertinent one in this discussion, if POC hadn't made that point I would have. I'll make another one - the Swiss have the oldest democracy in the world, and they modelled their modern constitution 150 years ago on that of the United States of America. So much of your guns debate has to do with the Constitution, doesn't it? Now, instead of looking at them through a US lens, try standing halfway between and making a less one-sided comparison. PLEASE, this is NOT an invitation to dive head-first into a row, nor even a discussion, about guns and America! Guns are a distraction from this issue, not relevant, and, whatever Americans might feel about it, believe me, the rest of us do not want such a discussion here. Please mark my words, I'll kill any guns thread immediately, moderator's action. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Bio Fuel Business
All the discussions about bio fuel business, inspired me to write the following piece for publishing on our web site. This is an early draft and I thought that the members of this list are the best ones for getting feedback. Hakan Possibilities of bio fuel business organization. - by Hakan Falk, Energy Saving Now. It is and has been some attempt to discuss bio fuel business on the bio fuel list at http://journeytoforever.org/ . The subject is very interesting and very important.. I am therefore try to putting down my thoughts about it, colored by my professional experiences. I have kept to ready to use technologies, since that is the only feasible for short and long term implementation. During the last 35 years I have been directly engaged in around 12 startups and consulting in some more. Of the 12 startups, 5 has been as employee and 7 in partnership with others. 10 of them have resulted in profitable businesses and 3 are still active on their own as small companies. The resulting 7 have in one way or other been taken over by a larger organization. The largest venture started with 3 founders 1978 and had 250 people with sales companies in 9 European countries, when it was sold to the world market leader 1982. The two failures was one where I only invested money and had no background to participate, I invested money in some friends fashion business. The other one was my last business and the financial/emotional losses was very large. It turned out that I had a dishonest partner and an auditor/advisor that were less than honest and this in a business environment that is both difficult and corrupted. Shortly said, I was taken for a ride. I have briefly given my background, so you will understand where I come from and be able to evaluate my analyses with that in your mind. I will in the following express my opinion of the market elements and the possible future, I want to tell you that renewable energy in some respects are already big businesses and will be huge. As example I want to mention the Danish Wind Mill generator business that started around 20 years ago and who is now market leaders in large generators and with more than 1 billion dollar in annual revenue and is only scratch the surface of the potential. The same can be said about Solar Power, but this business is spread on many suppliers. The PVC cell market is now mature enough for the large companies and you already see the Japanese emerging as potential market leaders. It is two fundamentally different businesses, one with large projects and few clients and the other one an end user market with many customers / installers and relatively few manufacturers. The traditional fossil fuel market, is a market with a few producers and a huge client base. It is dominated by a few companies who financed the prospecting and the needed large investments in production facilities. It is however not difficult to see that the traditional fossil fuel will have several severe price increases during the next two decades and cause more of what we now know as energy crises. The pressures will be tremendous on replacement fuels and energy efficiency. The Bio Fuel market is quite different than the mentioned markets. It will always be dependent on many small producers of the raw material and have to distribute to the same huge client base as fossil fuels. The bio fuel market can be divided in groups, depending on necessary production facilities and investments in those. The first division is based on the end use and will be transport, electricity and heating of buildings. Transport as the first group turns to be relational to engine technologies on short and medium term, namely gasoline or diesel engines. Hybrids will emerge, but they are also going to be divided into the same engine base. Small EV vehicles will start to emerge with a slow penetration and in typical city and short distance applications. The major battle ground on short and medium term will be around the gasoline and diesel technologies, or on bio fuel basis ethanol and bio diesel/SVO (Straight Vegetable oil). WVO (Waste Vegetable Oil) will give a small contribution, but are more of a smart and profitable recycling method of waste, than a major part of covering the energy needs. Bio fuel or rather bio diesel or SVO will be the dominant replacement player in electricity generation. Because of its size, consumption and stationary nature, preheated SVO seems to be a logical choice. Hydrogen and fuel cells will be a high profile development but are not in a stage were it will be a major player on short and medium term. Electricity generation with diesel engines is a very large market and it is hard to see ethanol playing any significant part. Heating of buildings is a huge market that must play a very important part. Cooling is an other use, but is possible to shut
[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Greg and April [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Not to be patranizing or anything, but, why don't you provide your own? Alot of people in the U.S. do. All Swiss able bodied males are expected to serve in the armed forces for a time and from then on are reserve. They are still expected to drill and practice every so often with thoes rifles. We are not. Would you be willing to put in the extra time and effort? Greg H. I think this may be getting well off the topic of Biofuels, but OK. The first reason I don't provide my own is economic. Just a license for possesion (Transfer Tax) is $500. Then I have to find one that is for sale, and was registered before...1986? This would likely be another $3000. I've already done my time in our armed forces, and still occasionally participate as an 'unofficial' consultant on some matters that are not for public disclosure. I participate in Drill and Practice (though not with Assault Rifles) as an instructor to a much more involved level than most of our National Guard troops, and all at my own personal expense. Even if I were to receive an Assault Rifle from the government, I would likely still be opposed to Mob Rule(Direct Democracy). We are much closer to that than I am comfortable with right now. I would prefer to return to the observance of Constitutional Laws. Ogeeshi Da, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Archives server back online
Martin's archives is back online again, as he promised. Thanks Martin! Keith Martin's having problems with the nnytech.net archive server, down till Tuesday. So, sorry to say, until then it's back to the horrors of Yahoo if you need archive material. Or wait till Tuesday! (MUCH better idea!) Yahoo's archive is accessible (sort of) from the message board page. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuel/messages Yahoo! Groups : biofuel Messages http://groups.yahoo.com/group/biofuels-biz/messages Yahoo! Groups : biofuels-biz Messages Regards Keith From: Martin [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], 'Steve Spence' [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: server outage Date: Thu, 21 Nov 2002 17:18:19 -0500 Hello The server is down; I can fix it on Tuesday night. First time it's been out in 345 days L I was hoping it would make a year without me [physically] touching it. I have to buy some new hardware: motherboard and RAM. Sorry Keith, Steve --- Martin Klingensmith nnytech.net infoarchive.net Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] regulations was: Re:Homebrewer on a soapbox!
Thor, as far as straw men go, I wasn't just replying to your post, there's been a lot of this kind of talk lately. I am very interested in seeing more face to face, local connections in the homebrewer community, but would be very suspicious of any situation where an organization would be formed that would speak for 'the homebrewer community', and that for most people would be the reason for seeing such an organization formed. again, it's important to realize that's a very different thing than seeing such an organization for small producers, who of course can use all the organization that they can get. anyway, it's amusing that in any talk that happens about organizing homebrewers to protect us from (from ourselves, from regulations, um, I however keep reading it as protecting ourselves from ourselves), people seem to forget that we aren't threatened by much in reality. Here's a couple of comments: Thor wrote: My focus is really more on independent producers who are making a (small) business of biodiesel. But, my point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good idea. You donât have to sell me on the merits of decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects, and empowered community members. I work with those every day. But you may need to sell some individuals in power on those concepts if you are worried about them messing things up. Since you express great concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know that you want to be left the f*#k alone? I would suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are not going to do it. mark: that';s potential regulation, not actual and current. Regulation will happen if we invite it, it won't if we don't. Homebrewer national organizations will invite it, that;s the nature of that kind of politics. Taxes are another matter. Mark, you wrote, ãand I know for a fact that many of the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying organizations or whatnot.ä I certainly canât gainsay that. But I wonder if you have enough in common as homebrewers to see to your collective interest as homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations. The possible organization and regulation you are agonizing about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the original organic farmers. Adoption of technology goes through phases, and if something becomes more lucrative as a business, more people will enter and want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards, etc. Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes. Sadly, I doubt that is likely. The anecdotes you have related bolster that view. Me: One thing that people forget is that there's very few ways that homebrewers can effectively be regulated unless it';s something we ask for and consent to. Our berkeley co-op, and other general membership coops, because it is such a public operation, could be regulated out of existence very easily. Small producers, because they are in business and they distribute fuel to the public, can be regulated. But few independent homebrewers could be, if they're not making some public big deal out of the existence of their processors. I mean, we use scrap and waste for chrissakes, and working in our garages and backyards for the most part. What do we have to be afraid of, if we don't invite it to happen to us first?. One way I could see this regulation happening is through regulation of the sale of methanol. But knowing the racecar engine builders I've met through buying methanol, or the racing fuels /methanol dealer I buy it from currently (the guy gave me a discount because 'you're a fuel geek, like us', yikes!), they are also a very independent lot who would probably still be a resource for homebrewers if this were to happen. The only other way we could be found and regulated, I could imagine is tank dipping for tax evasion purposes, (see the recent welsh drivers bust story)etc- not likely in the US. Of course there's lots of ways that some powers that be could make our lives miserable. But in reality, there's very few ways to find out if someone's making biodiesel 'without regulation'. Shortages of oil (in case of high demand by very large producers) would make our lives harder, but the reality is that it still isn't a huge problem- the advantages of decentralized and localized resources. So, again, why would I want to talk to the NBB as part of a homebrewers' organization if I;m making fuel for my own use??? At 01:41 PM 11/26/2002 -0800, you wrote: Mark, Well, my post
RE: [biofuel] electrical pump
I have a Teel fryer filter pump from Grainger, and I think it's Grainger model number 7P098 . It's pricey at $200, but it's been totally bulletproof- it's self-priming and can be run dry, and handles grease well as that's what it's designed for. It's a little bit slow (4 gpm, rated in oil at 4 gpm though which I think is what a lot of 'faster' pumps designed for other fluids seem comparable to) It's only available in AC. But having seen alot of SVO-ers struggling with DC transfer diesel pumps for grease acquisition, I'm pretty happy with this pump and a long extenstion cord (or big inverter?). For DC applications, I'm interested in experimenting with a marine macerator toilet pump- it's designed to handle thick matter, and it's fast supposedly. I don't think the ones I've seen are designed to be run dry. They're made by shurflo and one other company commonly, at about $130. I haven't tried this out, though I want to. At 12:59 PM 11/26/2002 -0800, you wrote: and there is this: http://www.pumps-ez.com/pumps/0056064_0056064_1.htmlhttp://www.pumps-ez.com/pumps/0056064_0056064_1.html the list seems extensive. James Slayden On Tue, 26 Nov 2002, Juan Boveda wrote: Hello John I would suggest an used engine oil pump from a junk yard, some of them comes with a coarse filter, over it if you wish, you could add a metalic mesh in front of it and an electrical drill to drive the pump. Regards Juan You wrote: I need a heavy duty electrical pump for sucking up badly contaminated WVO. My old one just collapsed. Any suggestions? John Venema Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the Yahoo! Terms of Service. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=234081.2697735.4071966.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=1327986/R=0/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;4870027;7586687;a?http://www.ameriquestmortgage.com/welcome.html?ad=Yahoo01650636f.jpg 6506419.jpg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
milliontc writes: I wonder if anyone would like to make comment on the following... Direct Democracy I think direct democracy is a terrible idea. People are already too poorly informed to vote knowledgeably on the 10 or so ballot initiatives we have every election here in California. Do you want every complex issue decided by every schmoe with a remote control? Do you have time to study and vote in an informed way on _every_ issue that comes up? Do you think the average person does? To understand the details of the laws as they are proposed? Big money is already corrupting the once-populist ballot initiative process, soon it will be as bad as the campaigns that candidates run. In a true direct democracy, laws would be sold like soft drinks. There is no way the mass market could be conducive to a real debate on the issues. The solution is to reform the election process. Representative democracy is the only way to run a complex society in a way which can be both effective and responsive to the people. As has been observed by many including Churchill, [representative] democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the others that have been tried. -- Kelsey Jordahl Such faith in We the People! Well, so much for democracy I suppose - folks is too dumb. Funny, that's what all the dictators say, and the corporatists too (so they use PR by the billions to shape this poor-quality clay and manufacture consent). Representative democracy is not the only way. The Swiss example is one alternative, a much admired one, Churchill notwithstanding (not that he's much of an example). There are quite a few others, and also many different forms of representative democracy. How would you propose to reform the US election process? Endless talk, no result. Have a look at the increasing role of polls and surveys in the last few decades. Check the impact on politicians and on policy-making. They use polls for guidance at least as much as votes - no, MUCH more than votes. But look how they use them - for guidance really? Only in a way, more to see what they can get away with and what they might not be able to get away with rather than for an indication of what The People actually want, and then to act accordingly. Some talk on the two lists at the moment about the USDA's organic standards, how the initial proposals were just a marketing plan for corporate industrial food, not even remotely organic, just an opening into a growing market for the usual suspects. The USDA, as Thor just said, received more public comments (over a half a million IIRC), way more than any federal agency had ever received on any proposed standards. I think he does RC. The results were certainly significant, but it's still a sham, though much less of a sham than originally intended. What they thought they could get away with. None of which had anything to do with the election process. Yet it affects very many people in their daily lives, at a very basic level - the food they eat. So government by poll might already be more significant than government by election, but you couldn't say either is exactly effective, not if democracy is your criterion. Despite Curtis's reservations about software, we (?) seem to trust the folks who rig the polls, though in fact their purpose is to sell the results, usually to corporations that can afford to pay for them, and indeed commission them. They're really part of the PR industry, and there's nothing democratic about the PR industry, quite the opposite. Teledemocracy could certainly do one whole lot better than all this half-assed, cobbled-together, shoddy crap people call democracy these days. Churchill aside (please), others have said democracy hasn't been tried yet. Hard to argue with that. Now's the time. We have the technology. Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
Re: [biofuel] electrical pump
girl mark, I looked at the pump at Grainger. They also sell the head (pump) separate from the motor, so if one already had a motor... What is the RPMs on the you have? --- Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:58 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] electrical pump I have a Teel fryer filter pump from Grainger, and I think it's Grainger model number 7P098 snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- áFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] RE: Thor's post and others re: opening the industry
I truly appreciate the great effort of Thor and many others in providing sound suggestions on how to improve the relationship between small producers, the NBB and the commercial side of the industry. I have been funneling these to individuals in the industry and NBB whom I think are most receptive to new ideas and to change. I can't and don't speak for the industry but from my personal perspective, I believe that some valid criticisms have been levied and excellent improvements proposed. I apologize that I have not been doing a better job of addressing many of the specific points made but I simply cannot keep up with the prolific nature of this group. After some experience here, I have a much better understanding of the efforts that are being made to make top-quality fuel. I also think I should provide some more details regarding my perspective on homebrew (and should have been more careful about sweeping statements in the first place). While I do nothing but biodiesel 40-70 hours/week, I have not seen any significant problems result from the use of homebrew. There are concerns but these are primarily perception rather than experience. That said, I think the more that is done for quality control for everyone involved in the production and distribution of biodiesel, the better. So I hope that everyone's input and effort on these fronts yields results. Happy Trails, Graham Good on you Graham, thankyou. :-) ... but I simply cannot keep up with the prolific nature of this group. Yes indeed - we all have this problem. Please try to make an effort though, this is an important discussion, and your role could be highly significant, especially in what you're saying about relaying info. Only 40-70 hours a week? Oh well, you have plenty of time then! Sorry just teasing - well, sort of. I think quite a few of us here work much longer hours than that. I do about 100, I think Todd and Mark might say something similar. These groups certainly take up more time than I can afford. I know Todd struggles with that. Many of us do. None of us has any resources. Industry has resources. Do you think it might be worth a rather small apportionment of such resources on the part of industry, the NBB or whatevr's suitable to provide time for people to interact with us here, and liaise with industry folks? Just a thought. Regards Keith Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Homebrewer on a soapbox! was A Response to
[Cross-post from the Biofuels-biz list.] Mark, Well, my post certain punched a lot of your buttons. I appreciate your taking the time to reply so passionately. As should be obvious by now, I am not familiar with the homebrewing community beyond the few individuals I know regionally who make BD and my own as yet unrealized pretensions towards making my own fuel for a while now. I agree with you that homebrewers, small producers, and large producers have different agendas and (possibly) overlapping interests. I am sure you read my posts carefully Mark, so you know that I never suggested homebrewers give anything up to a representative, or a representative organization. In fact, I said specifically that most homebrewers would probably not be interested in belonging to a biodiesel association, and that no such association could ever replace local ties. I also NEVER said anything about, as you put it, unagreed-to representatives, etc!), so please, no matter how agitated you feel, try to refrain from setting up straw men. My focus is really more on independent producers who are making a (small) business of biodiesel. But, my point is that everyone, homebrewers included, are affected by regulations, taxes, and so on, and that giving a voice to these concerns that would be heard by those who set regulations and taxes might be a good idea. You dont have to sell me on the merits of decentralized networks, neighborhood-scale projects, and empowered community members. I work with those every day. But you may need to sell some individuals in power on those concepts if you are worried about them messing things up. Since you express great concern over government regulation of homebrewers, and rightly so, how do you plan to let policy-makers know that you want to be left the f*#k alone? I would suggest that (unfortunately) posts to this forum are not going to do it. Mark, you wrote, and I know for a fact that many of the homebrewers don't have the time, nor enough in common as individuals, to waste time forming lobbying organizations or whatnot. I certainly cant gainsay that. But I wonder if you have enough in common as homebrewers to see to your collective interest as homebrewers (i.e. the right to continue homebrewing uninfringed by pesky laws and regulations. The possible organization and regulation you are agonizing about is not a new phemonenon; it happened to people who built and flew the early airplanes; to those in the nascent radio broadcasting industry; to the original organic farmers. Adoption of technology goes through phases, and if something becomes more lucrative as a business, more people will enter and want (or get without wanting) regulation, standards, etc. Personally, I would be happy to see homebrewers go on doing their thing, unaffected by these changes. Sadly, I doubt that is likely. The anecdotes you have related bolster that view. WRT certification, although I didnt say so specifically, I was actually thinking about third-party, private-sector (nonprofit) certification, not a government program. When I mentioned organic certification I was thinking of Oregon Tilth, CCOF, etc., not USDA organic standards. What happened to organics was lamentable, but I think it had less to do with poor government than it did with the fact that the proposed regs were developed at a time when agribusiness (General Mills, ADM, Birdseye) was realizing the huge growth potential in organic foods and was jumping into the market with both feet. The standards proposed in 98 reflected their interests (and those of corporate farms), more than it did the pioneers of organics. What is interesting was the reaction. USDA received more public comments (over a half a million IIRC), way more than any federal agency had ever received on any proposed standards. How did this happen? It happened because these voices of the public were focused through the efforts of, yup, organizationsfood cooperatives, environmental organizations, local farm and agriculture organizations. They got the word out and got it out well. Now, in part, this reflected the effectiveness of diffused networks of activists and interested consumers. But it also reflected a LOT of hard work by formal organizations. Back to certification. I come from a background studying certification and labeling, mostly of forest products and food. I dont know if certification and labeling would work for biodiesel, whether or not it would be a good idea, what the effect on consumer behavior would be. I threw it out as a possibility. The thing is, I dont think anyone else knows either, including you and Keith. No one has done (to my knowledge, and Id love to be wrong on this cause I like hard data) market research on how consumers make choices on alternative fuels for their automobiles, what influencing their decision-making, how risk-averse they are, and so on. I originally stated that I thought they are risk-averse and Keith
[biofuel] Re: A response to ... eh-hem.... Big Industry? was Re: BIG
[Cross-post from the Biofuels-biz list.] Keith, Great post. You have my brain working. Thanks for reminding me about the NBBs focus on fleets. I had forgotten that. However, I dont necessarily agree that small-scale producers are going to eschew fleets. But first, I think I may be tripping up on definitions. Where, really, does one draw the distinction between a homebrewer, a small-scale producer, and a large corporate producer? It seems to me that we might be trying to force various attributes, scale of production, geographical reach, business model, philosophy, community focus, into single descriptors. A homebrewer might be someone who produces say, 100 gallons per week, on their residential property. A small-scale producer could be a 2-5 person operation, using local feedstock, but as a primary commercial enterprise. Both of these produce for local consumers. But you could have a large-scale local producer who also relies on local feedstocks, especially in a large metropolitan area, also for local consumption. A business model such as World Energys, on the other hand, is predicated on quite different assumptions and operating procedures, moving raw materials and finished products among various markets; its much more akin to Enron than to any localized business. However, if we want to emphasize local energy economies, then local producers, including small-scale ones, should be thinking about fleets. Theres no reason why, for example, a Seattle-based producer couldnt supply the city school buses, or the municipal transit. I could still reasonably call them small-scale at this level (granted I havent crunched the numbers to see if the available WVO supply is sufficient to meet the needs of these buyers). You wrote that surveys show that Americans are willing to pay extra for greener and more economical vehicles. Can you point me in the direction of some of these surveys? I would so like to believe this but I am skeptical. There is always a gulf between expressed willingness to pay and actually paying. And what I see happening is precisely the opposite most people are more than willing to pay more for less green and less economical vehicles. Sure, there are a few who buy high-efficiency diesels (yours truly) or hybrids, but those are still a small market segment. You may be correct that I am overestimating the trepidation of the average consumer. I acknowledge that people I talk to about biodiesel (including those who have never heard about it before) are generally enthusiastic, but theres a gulf between enthusiasm and action. You are undoubtedly correct that the general public needs a different approach from fleet managers, but remember that the general public interacts with big business for most of its car needs purchase, fuel, parts. Many people are uninformed and busy. So, to get mr and mrs suburbia to act (at least in the short term) you need to reach these big business interfaces. If they can get a diesel-electric hybrid at their dealer they are much more likely to buy one than if they have to do a bunch of research and go out of their way to find something. Similarly, if the local Texaco is selling BD, great. If they have to drive somewhere out of the way and set up a special account with a small distributor, thats a barrier. Keith, I am still digesting your paragraph about a decentralized diffused network. I agree that it works best for information exchange and resource sharing, but for the purposes of lobbying, or communicating with an entity such as the NBB, it does not. If, as you say, homebrewers may not be able to organize because of internal disagreements, how would it be possible for the NBB (or anyone else) to deal effectively with them, at least in terms of reaching a consensus on issues? Maybe they don't need to as Mark suggests. I realize that you and others on this list have a much greater familiarity with and feel for the composition of the independent biodiesel community than do I. I also may be too conventional in my thinking, and I will ponder your post further. On the other hand, perhaps were not disagreeing at all. You support an association of small-scale coops and other producers, and that (I think) is really what I was talking about. Someone brewing 50 or 100 gallons a week in their garage is not necessarily whom I would target. Yet, that person may be equally affected (in relative terms), by changes in state and national laws or agency regulations. In other words, I dont think that a movement to localize economic activity, including energy production, can often afford to ignore the wider world. National and state policies can have dramatic impacts locally; consider just fuel taxes, licensing, and testing requirements. You wrote that the hundreds of biodieselers are accessible through existing networks. True, but Im not talking about a reaching in, rather a reaching out. I agree that small biodieselers should
Re: [biofuel] electrical pump
The only problem with this pump is that it's an odd positive-mount pump. The pump is coupled to the motor shaft by way of a unique clamp and the shafts of both the motor and the pump head are slotted and fit together via a brass key. This means it won't just fit on any old salvage motor, though a few bucks to a machine shop to make an adaptor for a found pump will probably be cheaper than paying for Grainger's new dayton motor. not sure of rpm right off the top of my head. Mark At 10:30 PM 11/26/2002 -0500, you wrote: girl mark, I looked at the pump at Grainger. They also sell the head (pump) separate from the motor, so if one already had a motor... What is the RPMs on the you have? --- Jesse Parris | studio53 | 53 maitland rd | stamford, ct 06906 203.324.4371www.jesseparris.com/ - Original Message - From: girl mark [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: biofuel@yahoogroups.com Sent: Tuesday, November 26, 2002 9:58 PM Subject: RE: [biofuel] electrical pump I have a Teel fryer filter pump from Grainger, and I think it's Grainger model number 7P098 snip Yahoo! Groups Sponsor ADVERTISEMENT http://rd.yahoo.com/M=234081.2697735.4071966.1925585/D=egroupweb/S=1705083269:HM/A=1327985/R=0/*http://ad.doubleclick.net/clk;4870024;7586687;x?http://www.ameriquestmortgage.com/welcome.html?ad=Yahoo0168b5d0b.jpg 68b5d83.jpg Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.htmlhttp://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to the http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/Yahoo! Terms of Service. [Non-text portions of this message have been removed] Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- ·FREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: Direct Democracy
--- In [EMAIL PROTECTED], Keith Addison [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Sorry, Motie, but trust an American to see the whole complicated Swiss set-up in terms of guns, first and foremost. The Swiss certainly don't see it that way. I believe most Swiss would see your comment on their democratic set-up as bizarre. I've spent time there and never heard anyone even mentioning guns. Different perspectives entirely. How to explain? How about if I told that the issue about guns, is not really about guns, but about whether or not our Constitution really means anything? It's just a piece of paper unless you have the means to back it up. Same in Sweden, same in Holland, etc etc - they just don't talk about it, no big secret, of course defence is important but it's no big deal. The US gun issue doesn't exist there. But for you it's an issue. In fact the Swiss comparison is a most pertinent one in this discussion, if POC hadn't made that point I would have. I'll make another one - the Swiss have the oldest democracy in the world, and they modelled their modern constitution 150 years ago on that of the United States of America. So much of your guns debate has to do with the Constitution, doesn't it? You have an amazing insight! It's ALL about the Constitution, and the people who ignore it. The Bill of Rights in particular is being ignored, with less pretense about it every day. From election fraud to illegal searches of our homes and false arrests on bogus violations, to Judges and Attorneys committing perjury in Court. We are living in a Police State, and the world doesn't seem to know. From Bill Clinton being aquitted for lying under Oath to a Judge, to the extremely bold decision to allow the Democrats to put Trafficant on the ballot in direct opposition to Election Law. Now the Homeland Security Bill basically suspends our Constitution under Color of Law, on top of the Patriot Act. When the Nazis rounded up the Jews for their trip to the showers, they were unable to resist. Some of us have decided that we won't give up our defensive tools until we are out of ammo. So, yes, it's about our Constitution! Now, instead of looking at them through a US lens, try standing halfway between and making a less one-sided comparison. The Swiss leaders are abiding by their Constitution, so they haven't a pressing concern about a need to defend themselves? PLEASE, this is NOT an invitation to dive head-first into a row, nor even a discussion, about guns and America! Guns are a distraction from this issue, not relevant, and, whatever Americans might feel about it, believe me, the rest of us do not want such a discussion here. Please mark my words, I'll kill any guns thread immediately, moderator's action. I didn't really want to go there on this list, but felt obligated to respond. This is my last mention of the topic. Keith Respectfully, Motie Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Forests - was Re: Back Online
Someone wrote: Loggers and professional Foresters KNOW what they are doing. The 'Environmentalists' may have the best of intentions, but are near- totally ignorant about the issues involved. -- Thanks so much for that enlightening comment. Whew! At long last, the environment is saved! It's a darned good thing we have the loggers and professional foresters, with all their new forestry management techniques; I don't know HOW those foolish forests got along without humans for so long! It's like those redwoods; they had the GALL to think they could grow that big without us helping by chopping them down. What were they thinking? I guess the trees just didn't know they were unhealthy until we benevolent humans came along and progressed far enough to figure out how sick the forests were making themselves. But now, with saws and chains and huge rut-digging tires, we can go in there and get rid of all the trees that are causing the ruckus. Trouble-makers, they are! Now if only we could get the big oil companies and car manufacturers to teach the clouds and winds how wrong they are in trying to stay clean... Joel R. (tongue firmly in cheek, but at least my head isn't! In my cheeks, that is) Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Re: [biofuels-biz] Homebrew problems
This brings up a question I';ve had for a while- are there other acids besides ffa, that are not water-soluble and are found in oils? We had some particularly terrible oil that titrated at 13 ml, and I just couldn't bring myself to believe that it was ffa causing the high values in the titration, as that restaurant always had decent oil before that particular sample. I tried doing what you're describing- washing the oil and pH testing the wash water and also re-titrating the oil layer to see if the acidity was something caused by water-solubles (vinegar from cooking, or acids from food rotting), and it seemed that it was still something insoluble, presumably ffa. thoughts? mark At 01:21 AM 11/27/2002 +, you wrote: The problems of quality of homebrew or commercial for that matter never seem to go away. As much as I would like to pretend that our bio is perfect, I want to share the latest of ours problems with the group in the hope that some one may benefit. I got a call that the fuel from the storage tank had clogged the filter on Tony's crane truck. Not with algae but with grease. Bear in mind that it been over 30¡C. I went over the process that Tony had been using. We had been concentrating on fine tuning the separators to continually remove the glycerol as it formed, the fuel was completely reacted and the temperature was over the melting points of our longest fatty acid esters. The problem had to come from the washing. Now washing is a brutal affair compared with bubble washing and getting the emulsion to break involves acidifying the water(slightly I would have hoped.). I ran some thick cream from the bottom drain of the storage tank and tested it for FFA's by mixing with neutral water and titrating the layers. The water remained neutral but the oil took ² ml of standard NaOH . I deduced that I was dealing with FFA's not an inorganic acid. After performing a number of trials using acid catalysis and the three alcohols on hand. I found that the controls using alcohol alone reduced the acid number and clarified the product. Addition of 5% of methanol without the addition of Sulphuric clarified the goop within 30 minutes at ambient temperature. We modified the post washing stage . Drying was achieved by heating the fuel to 115¡ while pumping from the bottom and spraying over the open top. As the dry fuel cooled to 60¡C 2% methanol was added and the lid closed for recirculating. Once cool, ~30¡C, this fuel was pumped across to the storage vat. I have neglected research on the washing stage, hopefully we can shorten this step as well. When the separators work well a 200l batch can be reacted and separated to completion in under an hour. I believe that the separators would have to spin much faster to be of use in post-wash separation. I have designed a simple vertical centrifuge to take the place of the dairy separators. If I get around to building it I'll post the results. Biofuels at Journey to Forever http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuel at WebConX http://webconx.green-trust.org/2000/biofuel/biofuel.htm List messages are archived at the Info-Archive at NNYTech: http://archive.nnytech.net/ To unsubscribe from this group, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/ Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] diesel... Envirnomental damage? but where?
ok Im debating some issues within my self. You know trying to do the right thing in a small way.. but being logical in the process. I plan to run my vehicles(s) on Veg oil that is cut/thinned by ? I can't decide what to cut/thin it with. If I choose diesel fuel am I making the environment worse.. Some with out thinking might immediately say yes bu... I'm thinking· yeah. It hurts ;-) Here is some of the stuff in my head about the environment and diesel that this thinking has produced. Iff I got this right when Crude Oil is tweaked and converted with the goal of making Regular gasoline fuel; the process produces some waste products. A big one of those waste products is the main ingredient of diesel fuel. Is that correct? Another way to say it is·... no matter how u cut and slice it.. when u make gasoline·. You make diesel too. Ok·· now the thinking based on the above·.. . Lets say the biodiesel fuelers etc. by miracle cut dino-diesel use by 50% using biofuels... hmmm okk.. so the gasoline industry has not slowed down while this has happened soo. 50% of this waste product produced in the production of the gasoline; that once was slated for use in producing dino-diesel, now has to go somewhere else... where does it go? a landfill? yuk.. That is more caustic to the environment than burning it in diesel engines I would think. So if that is true.. Cutting the veg oil with diesel fuel is better than that diesel going in a land fill some day. O???..would this balance of unused dino-diesel end up being used in other areas that burns it more cleanly with less caustic results to the environment anyway. Like heating fuel. (does heating with it use it more cleanly and with less toxins than a diesel engine?)If so; then the waste product slated for dino- diesel will still go there and be used up by things that are more efficient than Diesel vehicles. If that is the case then I should stay with something Greener to cut/thin my veg. oil with? What would this be, but that is for another post? Look forwards to hearing from those who want to shoot holes in this thinking. PS. Please also CC your responces to my mail at [EMAIL PROTECTED] and post them on here as well. Yahoo! Groups Sponsor -~-- áFREE Health Insurance Quotes-eHealthInsurance.com http://us.click.yahoo.com/1.voSB/RnFFAA/46VHAA/FGYolB/TM -~- Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
[biofuel] Kerosene...... biomass product
Am I correct in understanding Kerosene is a product derived from nautral sources? That makes it a biomass fuel right? Is the way it is made capable of being farmed etc. simular to growing crops that can be presseed into vegitable oils? If sooo.. why are we not pushing Kerosene use? Does it cause the same or worse caustic effects to the environment when used in a diesel engine? Is that one reasone why? a slightly off topic question from all this.. If I go to one of the Kerosene pumps at fuel stations is it realy Kero? or is it diesel wihtout taxes added? Biofuel at Journey to Forever: http://journeytoforever.org/biofuel.html Biofuels list archives: http://archive.nnytech.net/ Please do NOT send Unsubscribe messages to the list address. To unsubscribe, send an email to: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/
